You say: " Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state before 
Samadhi『三摩地』"。 I think kensho results from sitting and it is a state after 
samadhi. That is what most people think. If you think otherwise, perhaps you 
had a unique experience.
You say: "  The Sixth Patriarch did not even read or write." Yes, you are 
right, but he asked others to read and write for him, because he was 
illiterate. In other words, he had trouble with Chinese ideographic characters, 
but he was very smart in understanding language. That is a paradox.
You say: " Heart is the center of our true "spiritual being". 『靈性』。" This word 
is better translated into 'mind' in English. ' Heart' is not the right word.
You say: " 覺妙精明合十頂禮
I bow back to you.

--- On Wed, 24/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <> wrote:

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 8:47 AM


Hi Anthony,

1.  Yes, you are right。 Kensho『見性』 is resulted from sitting, which is a state 
before Samadhi『三摩地』。All these descriptions are resulted from sitting.  No 
different from describing the taste of Apple.
2.  Don't know what you were trying to say.
3.  Heart is everything you were talking about.  It is the integration of our 
mind and our physical being.  Also mind is the collection of every cell in our 
body.  Heart is our complete being.  Heart is the center of our true "spiritual 
being". 『靈性』。  Please do not analyze, categorize, think in terms of words.  
Practice and you shall witness. Heart is extremely powerful.

All words are just descriptions of various states of being.  Studying these 
words, like ED was doing, is NOT practice.  These two domains do not 
intersect.  Let me share a phrase with you from one China man to another.

達摩祖師於其血脈論中說:「見性為禪,若不見性,即非禪 也。」又說:「性及是心,心即是佛,佛即是道,道即是禪。」

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can

On 11/23/2010 12:51 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 

Most of your remarks make sense. But there is a problem with the following:
Most of us consider kensho a result of stillness, but you think it the other 
way around.
Yes, the Sixth Patriarch did not write, because he was unable to. He was 
illiterate. That does not mean he did not want to. His famous poem was dictated 
by him and written by his fellow student on the wall, to counter a different 
idea by Shenxiu. On the other hand, he read with or without the help of others, 
including his teacher. His favorite reading was the Diamond Sutra.
The third point is about the 'heart'. What do you think it is? The organ that 
can be transplanted? An emotional center that is used in the expression: I love 
my girl friend with all my heart? Or one of the centers where you can 
manipulate your 'chi' (heart chakra)?

--- On Tue, 23/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <> wrote:

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <>
Subject: [Zen] Three Buddhist Practices
Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 9:20 AM


Hi All,

The three fundamental Buddhist practices is "Discipline, Meditation, Wisdom".  
In Pali, they are "sila, samadhi, panna", or translated into "morality, 
stillness, wisdom." Word wise, jhana and samadhi and stillness are the same. 
Morality and discipline are the same.  Some of you may disagree about this 
"same".  They are the "same" in practice.  They are different only in our heads.

As you know, Chan is not taught through words.  Chan is about practice.  Let me 

My Teacher calls the first practice "purification".  When our body and mind 
become pure, we automatically disciplined and moral.  I call the first practice 
"detox".  Detox from all our habits - habitual concepts, habitual actions, 
habitual food, habitual life style.  It is like a reboot.

When we reach this clean state of being, then we reach samadhi, jhana, 
stillness or just Ding, as we call it in our school.  It is a state of 
stillness, yet spacious, expansive, clear, thoughtless......

Maintaining in this state, enables us to be in sync with the energy and wisdom 
of the universe.

Kensho is when our heart outshines our mind.  It is also a description of 
state.  Usually it means a state of clear mind or stillness before we reach 

Shigantaza however is the same practice (from the discipline, through sitting 
to clear mind to kensho).

In short, if we can detach ourselves from the descriptions from these states 
and simply Just Sit without thoughts and cultivate our chi. We can reach all 
these states.

In our school, we have a fourth state, our Teacher calls it, liberation.  It 
means liberation of our heart after we quiet or clear our mind.  

There is really no need to comprehend, just practice.  The Sixth Patriarch did 
not even read or write.

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can

On 11/22/2010 6:47 AM, wrote: 


My formal teaching has been in Japanese Zen Buddhism so most of the terms of 
which I am familiar are Japanese.

These are my understanding of some of the terms we've been using:

Kensho: A brief and temporary glimpse of Buddha Nature.

Satori: Essentially the same as kensho but a much more long-lasting and 
persistent awareness of Buddha Nature.

Shikantaza: 'Clear Mind', pure awareness. I call this state 'Just THIS!'. Clear 
Mind with Awareness = Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. Wikipedia defines shikantaza 
as: .. (只管打坐?) ... a Japanese term for zazen introduced by Rujing and 
associated most with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism, but which also is "the 
base of all Zen disciplines." According to Dōgen Zenji, shikantaza i.e. resting 
in a state of brightly alert attention that is free of thoughts, directed to no 
object, and attached to no particular content—is the highest or purest form of 
zazen, zazen as it was practiced by all the buddhas of the past. 

Samadhi: I am familiar with this term only from reading. It always seemed to me 
to be the same as shikantaza. Wikipedia defines samadhi as: "...a non-dualistic 
state of consciousness in which the consciousness of the experiencing subject 
becomes one with the experienced object, and in which the mind becomes still, 
one-pointed or concentrated though the person remains conscious. In Buddhism, 
it can also refer to an abiding in which mind becomes very still but does not 
merge with the object of attention, and is thus able to observe and gain 
insight into the changing flow of experience."

The Thai's use the term 'samadhi' to refer to Theravada Buddhist meditation. 
They have a different word 'glai-glia' to refer to other types of mediation.

>From my experience Clear Mind/shikantaza (samadhi?) and kensho/satori are 
>virtually the same. The only difference is that kensho/satori denotes the 
>point that you become AWARE of Clear Mind (samadhi?). So if you have to put 
>them in some kind of time sequence, first there is Clear Mind without 
>awareness, then Kensho/Satori which is the realization/awareness of Clear 
>Mind, and then Clear Mind continues with awareness.

Koans, in my experience, are used as a tool to stop the rational, 
discriminating mind's activities. It is only in this state than kensho/satori 
can occur. There are other ways to stop the discriminating mind such as just 
sitting (zazen). Eventually you will reach the state of shikantaza (samadhi?) 
in which a pure awareness can arise. This I call Buddha Mind/Buddha Nature. 

All of the above occurs IN THE ABSENCE of thinking/rationality/cognition. Part 
of zen practice AFTER kensho is to re-integrate thinking/rationality/cognition 
WITHOUT forming attachments to the concepts generated by thinking.

Having said all this I have to add the following caveat which is a paraphrase 
of Genjo's caveat on the 5 subdivisions of koans: 'any number of subdivisions 
and terms describing zen practice and awareness states could be devised, and 
all are ultimately meaningless. Zen is everyday life. Zen is nothing special. 
Zen is "Only Don't Know!". Zen is Just THIS!'

This is my experience.


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