Bill,
 
Yes, I used the two terms too loosely. They should represent different ideas. 
For instance, Sakyamuni got enlightened first, before entering nirvana. 
Nevertheless, it is impossible to save all sentient beings in this universe, so 
Bodhisatvas will never enter nirvana, if you think the worldly logic still 
applies. Moreover, it is still my understanding that mahayana tells you to save 
others before heeding yourself. Then, if you put the oxygen mask on the baby, 
how do you survive without it, or a delay in putting it on is your problem. 
Maybe Dalai Lama has an answer.
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 27/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 27 November, 2010, 12:02 AM


  



Anthony,

I’ll repeat again that it is my understanding that the Mahayana’s vow is to not 
enter Nirvana before all other sentient beings are saved – not to postpone 
enlightenment until all other beings are saved. 

You are basically equating Nirvana with enlightenment. Is that what you mean? 
Do you think these two terms describe the same experience?

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 7:47 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

Bill,

'First enlightenment, then help others' is Theravada philosophy. It is to some 
extent in conflict with mahayana's 'first save all beings, then enlightenment 
(nirvana)'. As you agree, the latter is unfeasible in this world. I can only 
explain it in terms of intention.

Anthony

--- On Fri, 26/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 6:22 PM

ED,

I believe Mahayana Buddhism teaches that you should not enter Nirvana nor break 
yourself off of the Wheel-of-Life (the continuous cycle of birth and rebirth) 
until all sentient beings are released from suffering. This is not the same as 
saying your should help others before helping yourself. Just like the oxygen 
mask example, you do have to get yourself in a position to help others before 
trying to help.

I can’t give you a source but one quote I remember from somewhere is: ‘First 
attain enlightenment. Then instruct all beings.’

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 4:16 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

ED,

You say: Of what use is a dead bodhisattva to anyone?

My suggestion: fly to Dharamsala and ask Dalai Lama. (It is an essential 
mahayana teaching that you should help others before helping yourself.)

Anthony

--- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 9:46 PM

Of what use is a dead bodhisattva to anyone?
A mother who really cares for her child will put on her own oxygen mask first.
On the other hand, "The life of an enlightened being is like the shadow of a 
bird on water."
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wu...@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> You got it wrong. Bodhisatvas advise you put the oxygen mask on other people 
> before you have it on yourself. > 
> You have not answer whether you don't think preventing turmoil is necessary.
> 
> Anthony

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