Anthony,

‘Everyone else’ refers to the numberless sentient beings in the Bodhisattva vow.

They don’t die, they just transfer to another flight.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 9:10 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

  
Bill,
 
You say: "Put on your own oxygen mask before attempting to help others, but 
don't exit the airplane
until everyone else is also ready to go.
Anthony: "Does 'everyone else' include those died, because you failed to help 
them put on the mask?".
 
Bill: "I'm sure the Dalai Lama does have an answer for this, and it's probably 
something to do with accusing the Chinese government of causing the emergency 
by hijacking the aircraft."
Anthony: " you should kidnap him and make him board the same plane and see if 
he can say the same thing."
 
Anthony


--- On Sat, 27/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 27 November, 2010, 10:16 AM
  
Anthony,

You are right that it is logically impossible to save all sentient beings, but 
saving all sentient beings in not a logical exercise. You actually save all 
sentient beings the moment you are enlightened.

I'm saying now for the 3rd time that Mahayana Buddhism does not discourage you 
from becoming enlightened before until all sentient beings are enlightened. It 
encourages you not to enter Nirvana before all sentient beings are enlightened. 
I could extend the airplane analogy to represent this:

Put on your own oxygen mask before attempting to help others, but don't exit 
the airplane
until everyone else is also ready to go.

I'm sure the Dalai Lama does have an answer for this, and it's probably 
something to do with accusing the Chinese government of causing the emergency 
by hijacking the aircraft.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2010 4:20 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

Bill,

Yes, I used the two terms too loosely. They should represent different ideas. 
For instance, Sakyamuni got enlightened first, before entering nirvana. 
Nevertheless, it is impossible to save all sentient beings in this universe, so 
Bodhisatvas will never enter nirvana, if you think the worldly logic still 
applies. Moreover, it is still my understanding that mahayana tells you to save 
others before heeding yourself. Then, if you put the oxygen mask on the baby, 
how do you survive without it, or a delay in putting it on is your problem. 
Maybe Dalai Lama has an answer.

Anthony

--- On Sat, 27/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 27 November, 2010, 12:02 AM

Anthony,

I’ll repeat again that it is my understanding that the Mahayana’s vow is to 
not enter Nirvana before all other sentient beings are saved – not to 
postpone enlightenment until all other beings are saved. 

You are basically equating Nirvana with enlightenment. Is that what you mean? 
Do you think these two terms describe the same experience?

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 7:47 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

Bill,

'First enlightenment, then help others' is Theravada philosophy. It is to some 
extent in conflict with mahayana's 'first save all beings, then enlightenment 
(nirvana)'. As you agree, the latter is unfeasible in this world. I can only 
explain it in terms of intention.

Anthony

--- On Fri, 26/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 6:22 PM

ED,

I believe Mahayana Buddhism teaches that you should not enter Nirvana nor break 
yourself off of the Wheel-of-Life (the continuous cycle of birth and rebirth) 
until all sentient beings are released from suffering. This is not the same as 
saying your should help others before helping yourself. Just like the oxygen 
mask example, you do have to get yourself in a position to help others before 
trying to help.

I can’t give you a source but one quote I remember from somewhere is: 
‘First attain enlightenment. Then instruct all beings.’

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 4:16 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

ED,

You say: Of what use is a dead bodhisattva to anyone?

My suggestion: fly to Dharamsala and ask Dalai Lama. (It is an essential 
mahayana teaching that you should help others before helping yourself.)

Anthony

--- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 9:46 PM

Of what use is a dead bodhisattva to anyone?
A mother who really cares for her child will put on her own oxygen mask first.
On the other hand, "The life of an enlightened being is like the shadow of a 
bird on water."
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wu...@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> You got it wrong. Bodhisatvas advise you put the oxygen mask on other people 
> before you have it on yourself. > 
> You have not answer whether you don't think preventing turmoil is necessary.
> 
> Anthony

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