Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Jan 3, 2011, at 17:52, Mark Perew <mpe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> For me, the bell timer is an indicator as to how much I was in to my 
> mediation.  When the bell sounds and I am surprised that it is sounding so 
> soon, then that is a clue that I was present for my breathing and not for 
> other things.  

Ha ha that is funny. It is the complete opposite for
me!  

The bell startles me when I have drifted off into distant thoughts. When I am 
staying aware of right here right now, I am aware when the period is about to 
end. Even to the point that I will know that this person on my left always 
moves a hand about three minutes before the period ends, or this bell ringer 
tenses up a
good ten seconds before picking up the mallet. 

At home if I am not fighting sitting, then an insence stick works fine, but 
usually I am resistant and I use an electronic timer of some sort. 

I find that while my thoughts will touch on the time, like you say it is no 
more so than on the other ten thousand things I could get worried about. 

> 
> Yes, there are times when my mind wanders off to the bell, wondering when it 
> will go off.  But that's one of a million places my mind goes.  The bell 
> itself is no more or less of a distraction than anything else.
> 
> 2011/1/3 Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com>
> 
> 
> Good Morning Dave P,
> 
> Let me explain why "gong" or timer or any external devices are not 
> recommended for serious Chan practitioners.
> 
> Because, when there is external dependency, our mind will be anxious in 
> waiting for that "gong".  It could be constantly asking itself, "where is the 
> gong?  when is it going to gong?  Isn't it time yet? Haven't I sit enough 
> time yet?, etc. etc." 
> 
> Sitting by TOTALLY FOLLOW our path of breathing with Back Straight, as per 
> Mel, for a shorter time is more effective than longer time with only 
> partially FOLLOW our path of breathing.
> 
> Just do it and please don't worry too much of the technicality of our mind.  
> Meaning follow your heart and not your mind.  You will get better.  
> 
> JM
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> http://www.heartchan.org
> 
> On 1/3/2011 6:43 AM, Dave P wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> I wasn't clear about the CD. it is by John Daido loori,               and it 
>> is a gong followed by 10 minutes of silence completed by another gong. 
>> 
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
>> <chan.j...@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Dave P,
>> > 
>> > Great. You are willing to give it a try. Here is the link to my 
>> > previous post on detailed instructions. 
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/message/21977
>> > 
>> > The following instructions are non-negotiable.
>> > 1. Please don't use a CD. No music. No voice. Complete silence is 
>> > the only way to rest your over-stressed mind.
>> > 2. Feel and sense the air passing into your nose, then throat, then 
>> > lunch then your belly. We called it, "follow the path of your breathing."
>> > 3. Don't worry about the time, do as long as you can. 30 minutes is 
>> > better, but 10 minutes is fine too. Slowly learn to sit longer. Don't 
>> > worry if you failed to breath for ten minutes. Neither should you 
>> > expect to belly breathe for 30 minutes. Just sit quietly FOLLOW the 
>> > path of your breathing.
>> > 4. You must commit to do it every day at same time and same place in 
>> > the morning before breakfast. Not while you are tired or agitated or upset.
>> > 
>> > Let me know if you have any questions. Are my instructions clear? Can 
>> > you commit to do it for a minimum of 30 days?
>> > 
>> > JM
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
>> > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
>> > http://www.heartchan.org
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On 1/2/2011 12:21 PM, Dave P wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 1) Is ten minutes okay? I ask because I already               have a 
>> > > timed CD with a 
>> > > 10 minute zazen session.
>> > > 2) I hope I don't come accross as distrustful of your suggestions! I 
>> > > have had problems with that on the OCD board.
>> > > 3) I think I might have lost your instruction. I am aware of breathing 
>> > > from the diaphram, and have been doing that for               about 
>> > > three years 
>> > > rather irregularly.
>> > >
>> > > I really hope this doesn't come off as distrustful!
>> > >
>> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, 
>> > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Dearest Dave,
>> > > >
>> > > > When we suffer, one of the symptoms is to be distrustful of every
>> > > > suggestion, because we have been cheated continuously far too long.
>> > > > Instead of questioning or thinking.... may I suggest....
>> > > >
>> > > > If you could, please take fifteen minutes every day to do belly
>> > > > breathing for 30 days at same time and same               place by 
>> > > > following my
>> > > > instructions from my previous post.
>> > > >
>> > > > If you promise that you will commit to belly breathing for 30 days, I
>> > > > will help by transmit the blessing of GuanYin Bodhisatva to you.
>> > > >
>> > > > Deal?
>> > > > JM
>> > > >
>> > > > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
>> > > > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
>> > > > http://www.heartchan.org
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On 1/1/2011 9:39 AM, Dave P wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Here's another dillemma i've had. the idea that everything is under
>> > > > > control, and the difference between that and choice. There is the
>> > > > > phrase "pain is inevitable, suffering is optional." I think that 
>> > > there
>> > > > > is truth in that, but I still feel that choosing to feel one may
>> > > > > nmeans that you have to ACT. That your actions have consequences that
>> > > > > you cannot control, a notion that paralyzes me. Can mindfulness help
>> > > > > with that? If so, how?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> 
>> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> > > > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - 
>> > > > > 覺妙精æËÅ"Ž <chan.jmjm@> 
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Happy New Year Ed,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Propose another word in place of "mindfulness" is a very 
>> > > > > > challenging
>> > > > > > task. Let me explain.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > In the practice and dealing with everyday life, we say "Be aware 
>> > > but
>> > > > > not
>> > > > > > attached to", "focus but not focusing", "observe but not 
>> > > observing",
>> > > > > are
>> > > > > > some of the terms we use while we translate from our Chinese text 
>> > > > > > to
>> > > > > > English. In other words, "sync to the universal wisdom at every 
>> > > moment,
>> > > > > > and not be attached to the meaning of the phenomena." is the 
>> > > phrase we
>> > > > > > need to represent with a single word.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The most common general terms as a verb in the practice, we use 
>> > > are "be
>> > > > > > aware", "sense", "feel", etc. i.e. "sense our breathing", "feel the
>> > > > > > chakra". They are usually terms applying also to emotions, 
>> > > feelings as
>> > > > > > well as our general overall well being, physical and spiritual. 
>> > > We can
>> > > > > > not separate our "true feeling" from our body or mind.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > We are very careful not to consistently use the same word. 
>> > > Especially
>> > > > > > the practice to "notice" the conditions of our body, mind and 
>> > > spirit,
>> > > > > > could require different verb for a similar function. Chan teaching
>> > > > > > requires flexibility.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The purpose of Chan wordings are nothing but to wake up the
>> > > > > > practitioner, and not to set a path or a rule to follow. After 
>> > > > > > 5,000
>> > > > > > words, Diamond Sutra said only one thing, "Whatever you think it 
>> > > is, it
>> > > > > > is not. It just is."
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Perhaps a lot of times, I am guilty in becoming lazy and just say,
>> > > > > > "Shut up, Sit down and Stop thinking."
>> > > > > > LOL.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
>> > > > > > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
>> > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On 1/1/2011 7:37 AM, ED wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > JM,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > What is your proposed definition of 'mindfulness'?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > --ED
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
>> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
>> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Jue Miao Jing Ming -
>> > > > > ÃÆ'¨Â¦ÂºÃÆ'¥Â¦â„¢ÃÆ'§Â²Â¾ÃÆ'¦ËÅ"Ž
>> > > > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Thank you JDB. Indeed we also teach "emptiness of mind".
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Somehow the western Zen is stuck on the label of "mind" and 
>> > > would not
>> > > > > > > let go.ÃÆ'‚ There is even a seminar about the small mind 
>> > > > > > > and 
>> > > big mind.
>> > > > > > > Though all journeys lead to the same place.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > "Mind" is too close to "thinking". It can be easily 
>> > > misunderstood and
>> > > > > > > misinterpreted.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > We teach "empty your mind", "enhance your heart". And we 
>> > > continue to
>> > > > > > > say "because heart is where we could unify our body, mind and 
>> > > spirit."
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Somehow, unify our body to the same physical structure as the
>> > > > > universe
>> > > > > > > is not emphasized in western Zen.ÃÆ'‚ Most of the reading 
>> > > that I have
>> > > > > > > encountered with focuses mainly on the mind and its awareness, 
>> > > not on
>> > > > > > > the body and little on the spirit.ÃÆ'‚ Though we 
>> > > > > > > constantly 
>> > > talked
>> > > > > about
>> > > > > > > body, mind and spirit, but in essence, they are one and
>> > > > > inseparable.ÃÆ'‚
>> > > > > > > Just like the universe.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > In our school, awareness does not reside in the mind. 
>> > > Awareness is a
>> > > > > > > function of our spirit, which reside in our heart.ÃÆ'‚ 
>> > > "Heart" is not
>> > > > > > > the organic heart, but our "total well being", our "center" or
>> > > > > > > "ONE".ÃÆ'‚ Awareness enhancement helps us to be awakened 
>> > > > > > > to the
>> > > > > Absolute
>> > > > > > > Awareness of the universe.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > This brings this post to another question. What does Zen say 
>> > > about
>> > > > > our
>> > > > > > > spirit? Our spiritual levels, our spiritual being, spiritual 
>> > > karma,
>> > > > > > > the sixth, seventh and eighth consciousness?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > After several years with this forum, I have read little about
>> > > > > these.ÃÆ'‚
>> > > > > > > In other words, to be enlightened, we need to surpass karmic
>> > > > > hindrance
>> > > > > > > of body, mind and spirit. We need to work on all three.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Otherwise, we are just imagining and hoping.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On this New Year Day, I hope this post is not too 
>> > > objectionable to
>> > > > > ALL.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Happy New Year and thank you for your patience and 
>> > > understanding for
>> > > > > > > all the years.
>> > > > > > > JMJM
>> > > > > > > Head Teacher
>> > > > > > > Order Of Chan
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
>> > > > > > > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
>> > > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On 12/31/2010 10:12 PM, Rev. Joriki Dat Baker wrote:
>> > > > > > >> ÃÆ'‚
>> > > > > > >> Or the emptiness of mind.
>> > > > > > >> I wonder if something similar could be said about mindfulness.
>> > > > > > >> "Mindful" in the Western sense seems to be directing your 
>> > > attention
>> > > > > > >> in one direction, However, maybe a better translation is "mind
>> > > > > > >> fullness," as in you experience everything with the fullness 
>> > > of your
>> > > > > > >> mind. Or am I way off here? 
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> 
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