*chuckles* Yep-- that was my experience as well when I started the practice, and was using a similar CD. I simply never concerned myself with the time, as I knew when the perod ended--I would hear a reminder. I think its all in one's personality, and what such a device represents to the individual. For me, such a "CD-timer" was part of the elements that set apart that period of the day as special self-care moments. The same was true for candles or scented things like flowers, essential oils, or seasonal spices. I have fountains for similar reasons. I don't always do the whole production, but I feel a difference when I do. For me, now-- I intuitively seem to know how much time has passed, and don't need a timer, but when I used one, it relieved anxiety, rather than increased it. Different strokes kind-of-thing. Be well.. Kristy
--- On Mon, 1/3/11, Dave P <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dave P <[email protected]> Subject: [Zen] Re: Mindfulness pt 2 To: [email protected] Date: Monday, January 3, 2011, 4:00 PM But isn't the alternative staring at a clock? I find myself never waiting for the gong. it usually just comes. --- In [email protected], Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@...> wrote: > > Good Morning Dave P, > > Let me explain why "gong" or timer or any external devices are not > recommended for serious Chan practitioners. > > Because, when there is external dependency, our mind will be anxious in > waiting for that "gong". It could be constantly asking itself, "where > is the gong? when is it going to gong? Isn't it time yet? Haven't I > sit enough time yet?, etc. etc." > > Sitting by TOTALLY FOLLOW our path of breathing with Back Straight, as > per Mel, for a shorter time is more effective than longer time with only > partially FOLLOW our path of breathing. > > Just do it and please don't worry too much of the technicality of our > mind. Meaning follow your heart and not your mind. You will get better. > > JM > > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com > http://www.heartchan.org > > > On 1/3/2011 6:43 AM, Dave P wrote: > > > > I wasn't clear about the CD. it is by John Daido loori, and it is a > > gong followed by 10 minutes of silence completed by another gong. > > > > --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Dave P, > > > > > > Great. You are willing to give it a try. Here is the link to my > > > previous post on detailed instructions. > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/message/21977 > > > > > > The following instructions are non-negotiable. > > > 1. Please don't use a CD. No music. No voice. Complete silence is > > > the only way to rest your over-stressed mind. > > > 2. Feel and sense the air passing into your nose, then throat, then > > > lunch then your belly. We called it, "follow the path of your > > breathing." > > > 3. Don't worry about the time, do as long as you can. 30 minutes is > > > better, but 10 minutes is fine too. Slowly learn to sit longer. Don't > > > worry if you failed to breath for ten minutes. Neither should you > > > expect to belly breathe for 30 minutes. Just sit quietly FOLLOW the > > > path of your breathing. > > > 4. You must commit to do it every day at same time and same place in > > > the morning before breakfast. Not while you are tired or agitated or > > upset. > > > > > > Let me know if you have any questions. Are my instructions clear? Can > > > you commit to do it for a minimum of 30 days? > > > > > > JM > > > > > > > > > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can > > > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > > > > > > > On 1/2/2011 12:21 PM, Dave P wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Is ten minutes okay? I ask because I already have a timed CD > > with a > > > > 10 minute zazen session. > > > > 2) I hope I don't come accross as distrustful of your suggestions! I > > > > have had problems with that on the OCD board. > > > > 3) I think I might have lost your instruction. I am aware of > > breathing > > > > from the diaphram, and have been doing that for about three years > > > > rather irregularly. > > > > > > > > I really hope this doesn't come off as distrustful! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > > > 覺妙精æËÅ"Ž <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dearest Dave, > > > > > > > > > > When we suffer, one of the symptoms is to be distrustful of every > > > > > suggestion, because we have been cheated continuously far too long. > > > > > Instead of questioning or thinking.... may I suggest.... > > > > > > > > > > If you could, please take fifteen minutes every day to do belly > > > > > breathing for 30 days at same time and same place by following my > > > > > instructions from my previous post. > > > > > > > > > > If you promise that you will commit to belly breathing for 30 > > days, I > > > > > will help by transmit the blessing of GuanYin Bodhisatva to you. > > > > > > > > > > Deal? > > > > > JM > > > > > > > > > > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can > > > > > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/2011 9:39 AM, Dave P wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's another dillemma i've had. the idea that everything is > > under > > > > > > control, and the difference between that and choice. There is the > > > > > > phrase "pain is inevitable, suffering is optional." I think that > > > > there > > > > > > is truth in that, but I still feel that choosing to feel one may > > > > > > nmeans that you have to ACT. That your actions have > > consequences that > > > > > > you cannot control, a notion that paralyzes me. Can > > mindfulness help > > > > > > with that? If so, how? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > > > Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > ÃÆ'¨Â¦ÂºÃÆ'¥Â¦â„¢ÃÆ'§Â²Â¾ÃÆ'¦ËÅ"Ž > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Happy New Year Ed, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Propose another word in place of "mindfulness" is a very > > challenging > > > > > > > task. Let me explain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the practice and dealing with everyday life, we say "Be > > aware > > > > but > > > > > > not > > > > > > > attached to", "focus but not focusing", "observe but not > > > > observing", > > > > > > are > > > > > > > some of the terms we use while we translate from our Chinese > > text to > > > > > > > English. In other words, "sync to the universal wisdom at every > > > > moment, > > > > > > > and not be attached to the meaning of the phenomena." is the > > > > phrase we > > > > > > > need to represent with a single word. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The most common general terms as a verb in the practice, we use > > > > are "be > > > > > > > aware", "sense", "feel", etc. i.e. "sense our breathing", > > "feel the > > > > > > > chakra". They are usually terms applying also to emotions, > > > > feelings as > > > > > > > well as our general overall well being, physical and spiritual. > > > > We can > > > > > > > not separate our "true feeling" from our body or mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are very careful not to consistently use the same word. > > > > Especially > > > > > > > the practice to "notice" the conditions of our body, mind and > > > > spirit, > > > > > > > could require different verb for a similar function. Chan > > teaching > > > > > > > requires flexibility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The purpose of Chan wordings are nothing but to wake up the > > > > > > > practitioner, and not to set a path or a rule to follow. > > After 5,000 > > > > > > > words, Diamond Sutra said only one thing, "Whatever you > > think it > > > > is, it > > > > > > > is not. It just is." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps a lot of times, I am guilty in becoming lazy and > > just say, > > > > > > > "Shut up, Sit down and Stop thinking." > > > > > > > LOL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can > > > > > > > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com > > > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/2011 7:37 AM, ED wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JM, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is your proposed definition of 'mindfulness'? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected] > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Jue Miao Jing Ming - > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'¨ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'‚ºÃÆ'Æ'Â¥ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'¢â€žÂ¢ÃÆ'Æ'§ÃÆ'‚²ÃÆ'‚¾ÃÆ'Æ'¦ÃÆ'‹Å"ÃÆ'…½ > > > > > > > > <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you JDB. Indeed we also teach "emptiness of mind". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Somehow the western Zen is stuck on the label of "mind" and > > > > would not > > > > > > > > let go.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ There is even a seminar about the > > > > > > > > small > > mind and > > > > big mind. > > > > > > > > Though all journeys lead to the same place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mind" is too close to "thinking". It can be easily > > > > misunderstood and > > > > > > > > misinterpreted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We teach "empty your mind", "enhance your heart". And we > > > > continue to > > > > > > > > say "because heart is where we could unify our body, mind and > > > > spirit." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Somehow, unify our body to the same physical structure as the > > > > > > universe > > > > > > > > is not emphasized in western Zen.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ Most of > > > > > > > > the > > reading > > > > that I have > > > > > > > > encountered with focuses mainly on the mind and its > > awareness, > > > > not on > > > > > > > > the body and little on the spirit.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ Though > > > > > > > > we > > constantly > > > > talked > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > body, mind and spirit, but in essence, they are one and > > > > > > inseparable.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > > > > > > > Just like the universe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In our school, awareness does not reside in the mind. > > > > Awareness is a > > > > > > > > function of our spirit, which reside in our > > > > > > > > heart.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > > > "Heart" is not > > > > > > > > the organic heart, but our "total well being", our "center" or > > > > > > > > "ONE".ÃÆ'Æ'‚ Awareness enhancement helps us to > > > > > > > > be > > awakened to the > > > > > > Absolute > > > > > > > > Awareness of the universe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This brings this post to another question. What does Zen say > > > > about > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > spirit? Our spiritual levels, our spiritual being, spiritual > > > > karma, > > > > > > > > the sixth, seventh and eighth consciousness? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After several years with this forum, I have read little about > > > > > > these.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > > > > > > > In other words, to be enlightened, we need to surpass karmic > > > > > > hindrance > > > > > > > > of body, mind and spirit. We need to work on all three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise, we are just imagining and hoping. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On this New Year Day, I hope this post is not too > > > > objectionable to > > > > > > ALL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Happy New Year and thank you for your patience and > > > > understanding for > > > > > > > > all the years. > > > > > > > > JMJM > > > > > > > > Head Teacher > > > > > > > > Order Of Chan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can > > > > > > > > http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com > > > > > > > > http://www.heartchan.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/31/2010 10:12 PM, Rev. Joriki Dat Baker wrote: > > > > > > > >> ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > > > > > > >> Or the emptiness of mind. > > > > > > > >> I wonder if something similar could be said about > > mindfulness. > > > > > > > >> "Mindful" in the Western sense seems to be directing your > > > > attention > > > > > > > >> in one direction, However, maybe a better translation is > > "mind > > > > > > > >> fullness," as in you experience everything with the fullness > > > > of your > > > > > > > >> mind. Or am I way off here?ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ� > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
