The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 75 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Administrative Notice - Banned Topic - MUST READ! Re: supercharger Re: Leasing a BMW Re: Leasing a BMW Re: GC rear shock mounts Re: GC rear shock mounts Re: Time for F rotors and pads Re: Time for F rotors and pads Re: GC rear shock mounts Re: Supercharger Re: Supercharger Re: [e36 M3] SS brake lines Re: supercharger Re: Cross drilled? (was: Time for F rotors and pads - Is this a record?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:24:48 -0500 From: UUC Digest Monitor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Administrative Notice - Banned Topic - MUST READ! Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> All, Discussions of electric superchargers are banned on this list due to the flame wars and stupidity generated by this topic. DO NOT reply to the list with posts relating to electric superchargers or the list policies surrounding them. If you have any questions or comments on this policy, please reply off-list to discuss. Cheers, Your UUC Digest Team At 10:01 AM 3/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] >-----Original Message----- >I think a while back there was a centrifugal supercharger that was driven >by an electric motor rather than a mechanical crank-driven >belt. Presumably that could be shut off as well, but I don't think >they're still around. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:39:57 -0500 From: "Michael Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: supercharger Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have seen several older cars with such a setup. Supercharger has what looks like a version of a AC compressor clutch on the pulley, flip a switch and it engages the supercharger. I doubt improved MPG make up for the added cost, engineering and reliability issues. Mike -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Werner Gillmer Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 6:45 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [UUC] supercharger Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] Is this possible? I think it is, needs a 2nd opinion and is it a good idea to do? You have a supercharger in your car, but it does not boost, only on full throttle does it starts to boost, so everyday driving your gas mileage stays the same. However if you want to go have fun, you have a activate switch to activate the S/C and then you start boosting, so if you climb in the car hit the activate switch and turn it on, then you have a normal supercharger. ________________________________________________________________________ __ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:02:19 -0500 From: Phil Marx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Leasing a BMW Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Actual residual value only affects you if your intention is to purchase the vehicle at lease termination. And even then, if the value is substantially lower than the quoted residual used in factoring the lease, often the finance company will negotiate a lower buy-out---particularly if you're refinancing the buyout through them. Otherwise a manufacturer or finance company's high stated residual only serves to lower your monthly payment. You can only end up upside-down in a lease if you fail to go to term, and even then not always. Beyond that what do you care if the finance company looses their butt on the end-term value of the vehicle as long as you're not paying excess mileage charges? BMW uses high residuals the way GM and Ford use incentives and trunk money. It's much more classy to advertise a low lease payment than it is to yell out 1% over invoice, and it postpones the hit the manufacturer takes on incentives. -Phil RussC wrote: >If the E32 750iL is any indication of future E65 resale value, watch out >below..... Brett Anderson wrote: > >I think Joel was referring to the 8 year old E65 7 series, which >>is going to > >be worthless. >> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> Joel Gallun writes: I wonder what the economics of leasing are when the >>> residual values approach zero? >>> >>> According to Auto-Spies, BMW ranks #1 in leasing value due to their >>> resale superior value as well as their consumer oriented money factor. > >> I wonder where you got your data regarding residual values Joel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:10:53 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Leasing a BMW Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Russ says: "If the E32 750iL is any indication of future E65 resale value, watch out below....." This is just the other side of the equation. I am more than happy with the purchase value and current value of my 750iL. I let the original sucker take the depreciation and I've enjoyed the result (passengers in the car constantly remark about the smoothness of the V12). If only parts didn't depreciate in usefulness so quickly ; ^ ). -Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:46:05 -0800 From: "J. Ochi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: GC rear shock mounts Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:14 AM 3/10/2004, Mark Andy wrote: >I'm looking at the ground control mount shown here: >http://www.ground-control.com/images/bmw/bmw-mount-race.jpg > >Anyone have experience with how durable this thing is? I've heard >somewhat spotty reports of GC quality overall... This will be for a daily >driver that sees reasonably serious autox duty as well. The GC mounts that your picture shows are the track-only ones, with a spherical bearing. What you probably want are the GC mounts with a urethane insert. The urethane ones are VERY durable - I used to go through the stock ones in 15K-20K miles. The GC ones have been in for over 60K miles, without any problems or signs of wear, and that's with much stiffer shocks than the Konis I was using with the stock mounts. The GC shock mounts also have a lifetime warranty, so if they do wear out, you can get replacements for free. I don't remember what class you autox the 325 in, but I think the GC shock mounts will take you out of stock... >I do wonder about noise though... Will these mounts result in banging, >squeeking, creaking, etc.? Installed correctly, you won't get any banging/squeaking/creaking. I've heard reports that if you don't tighten up the top shock nut correctly, you may get squeaking and creaking, but haven't experienced that myself. Most of those reports, though, are a little suspect - they tend to come from proponents of the JT Design rear shock mount... >And from what folks have said, the way these work is the nut gold nut >plate goes over the top of the shock tower and the black top shock mount >goes under the shock tower, right? Meaning that future shock removal can >be done from under the car? Yup, exactly. No more pulling on the trunk carpet. Works great if you use the Koni S/A shocks that you have to compress and turn to adjust. >What's the deal with the slotted shock mount holes? The slotted shock mount holes are only found on the shock mounts with the spherical bearings. If I remember correctly, Jay told me the slots are for use if you go to a full coilover setup in the rear. If you use the separate shock/spring setup in the stock location, you push the mount one way. If you relocate the rear spring into a coilover configuration, you push the mount the other way for more wheel clearance between the tire and the spring. Jim Ochi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:03:03 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: GC rear shock mounts Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> I'm looking at the ground control mount shown here: >> http://www.ground-control.com/images/bmw/bmw-mount-race.jpg > >Those look like race RSMs. >GC also has street-oriented RSMs with polyurethane between the shock piston >and the mount bracket. I have the latter. In my recent quest for RSM's I came across them at M3 Motorwerks. http://www.m3motorwerks.com/index.php There's a link to them right on the main page. Seems like a very reasonable price too. No affiliation, etc. They were just very helpful in answering my questions so I figure they deserve a plug. Brian '94 325ic ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:06:36 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Time for F rotors and pads Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Brian notes: " Heat capacity isn't really the critical factor - you don't want the rotors to absorb heat, you want them to radiate heat." Radiating is one mode of heat dissipation the other is heat transfer by having another fluid/medium (air) pass over or through the rotors. Then to a lesser degree there is heat transfer through the brake fluid and components of the braking system. -Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:36:58 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Time for F rotors and pads Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> convection, conduction, radiation Gary Derian > > Radiating is one mode of heat dissipation the other > is heat transfer by > having another fluid/medium (air) pass over or > through the rotors. Then to > a lesser degree there is heat transfer through the > brake fluid and > components of the braking system. > > -Kevin > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, > founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and > home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:57:22 -0800 From: "J. Ochi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: "Mark Andy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: GC rear shock mounts Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 08:08 AM 3/10/2004, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >FWIW, my GC rear trailing arm reinforcements/spacers do squeak like crazy >:http://www.ground-control.com/images/bmw/e36-rear-lca1.jpg I've used the spacers on my car, and on several other M3s. None of them squeak, even after several thousand miles. Might be a burr on the inside of the rear trailing arm bushing console, or something similar. Or it may be a lack of lubrication - I usually use some anti-seize on both sides of the spacers before assembling... >All future shock removal can be done from inside the wheel well. >The pics on this site should answer all your future questions: >http://www.the-welters.com/racing/gc-installation/ One thing to be aware of - the pics on that site show the shock mounts being installed upside-down. I've heard that this is the correct way if you use the really short externally adjustable Konis that GC sells for some applications - installing the shock mounts upside down gives you a little more droop travel. But for normal length shocks, you want to have the flat side of the shock mount facing downwards, with the domed part protruding through the top of the shock tower. Jim Ochi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:17:15 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Supercharger Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Werner, Mercedes has some S/C applications that have a magnetic clutch which functions as you indicated. However, there is a penalty in that the intake stream is now impeded by the impellers. So there is some pumping loss with the S/C decoupled. As a first pass, I wouldn't think that a simple switch to turn on the supercharger would be a good thing as the fuel system would also have to be coupled into the system to prevent an initial leaning of the intake charge until the normal feedback loop could react. -Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:27:08 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Supercharger Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The supercharger can be bypassed. As full throttle is approached, the bypass closes which forces air thru the supercharger which spins it up for smooth clutch engagement. Gary Derian > > Werner, > > Mercedes has some S/C applications that have a > magnetic clutch which > functions as you indicated. However, there is a > penalty in that the intake > stream is now impeded by the impellers. So there is > some pumping loss with > the S/C decoupled. > As a first pass, I wouldn't think that a simple > switch to turn on the > supercharger would be a good thing as the fuel > system would also have to be > coupled into the system to prevent an initial > leaning of the intake charge > until the normal feedback loop could react. > > > -Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 02:18:44 +0700 From: "Sean Cordone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [e36 M3] SS brake lines Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Wasting money on the M3? Hah, well yeah, that's probably true, but the incremental cost for the Euro rotors is really nominal IMHO, so I'm checking 'em out. The design relative to the US spec rotors is compelling to me. And who hasn't wanted to check out all the E36 Motorsport Euro gear that we didn't get stateside? As for the SS brake lines, I'll probably pass. I've always run ATE Super Blue, but after running a few gallons through the lines the benefits of bleeding start to approach 0. <\sarcasm> --SC > Marco Romani wrote: > > > the biggest bang for the buck for pedal feel is bleeding your brakes. You > > will get a slightly better pedal feel for SS lines. And I replace mine > > every two years on the race car. A more aggressive pad will help pedal feel > > the most. > > also, most SS lines need to be replaced most often than the stock rubber > ones. for a street car it seems like overkill. > > > BTW - IMHO you wasted $$ on the floating rotors. I have never warped the > > regular ones (even without ducting) and they're not "that much" heavier. > > I agree. floating rotors are only better at fade resistance & add nothing to > street performance of the car (unless you're braking enough to induce > fade which means you're driving too hard on the street IMHO). given that > you can get solid brembo replacements for ~$50/rotor I seriously doubt > that you'll get anything close to 3x the use out of the floating ones either, > esp > on the street. -- _____________________________________________________________ Web-based SMS services available at http://www.operamail.com. >From your mailbox to local or overseas cell phones. Powered by Outblaze ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:22:39 -0800 From: "RussC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: supercharger Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> All the info so far is correct. I've heard the current Mercedes Benz AMG cars have the clutch driven super chargers(clutch disengaged when low load, engaged when power needed). While the electronic wastegate is good, there is still a penalty for the turbo exhaust restriction(~10%). Theres the idea of the open WG under low load, and there are many patents on this, but none for cars that I know of. I guess the cost vs benifit is to low. RussC >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 8:41 AM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: [bmwuucdigest] digest(13 messages) > >Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:01:09 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >From: Brian Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: supercharger >Message-ID: ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Werner Gillmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>Is this possible? I think it is, needs a 2nd opinion and is it a good >>idea to do? >> >>You have a supercharger in your car, but it does not boost, only on full >>throttle does it starts to boost, so everyday driving your gas mileage >>stays the same. > >This is more or less how a centrifugal supercharger behaves. They >don't make significant boost before about 3000 RPM so just >cruising around town they don't have much effect, but when you >floor it, hang on. As far as I know all the commercially >available supercharger kits for BMWs use centrifugal superchargers. > >>However if you want to go have fun, you have a activate >>switch to activate the S/C and then you start boosting, so if you climb >>in the car hit the activate switch and turn it on, then you have a >>normal supercharger. > >Sounds more like a turbo with electronically controlled wastegate. > If you set the wastegate low enough you basically get no boost. >I think a while back there was a centrifugal supercharger that was >driven by an electric motor rather than a mechanical crank-driven >belt. Presumably that could be shut off as well, but I don't >think they're still around. > >Brian >'94 325ic (naturally aspirated) >'94 Mustang Cobra (10 lbs. of centrifugal boost) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 11:56:36 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cross drilled? (was: Time for F rotors and pads - Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -----Original Message----- From: "chet.dawes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >The cooling effect of the drilled holes is minimal and probably offset >by the reduced heat capacity of the rotor due to the lost mass. The >airflow is perpendicular to the drilled holes and moves outward in the >radial direction from inertia and the pressure created by the fins on >the interior of the rotor not in/out of the drilled holes. If anything, >it could destroy the flow characteristics of the cooling passages and >allow air to escape (assume for a second it does travel in/out of the >holes) through a shorter path permitting less heat transfer to the air >from the rotor surface. The radiant heat transfer from the additional >surface area is the only 'real' added cooling. I believe even that is >minimal. Chet, I don't disagree with your conclusion, but wouldn't the air flowing through the vented rotor draw air through the drilled holes as it passes across them due to the Venturi effect? This stuff gets complicated in a hurry. I guess it's a matter of knowing which of these effects are significant. A lot of engineering seems to involve determining what simplifying assumptions you can make and still have a model that remains close enough to the behavior of the physical system to be useful. >The reduced mass rotational inertia argument falls apart (within reason, >we're not talking huge changes here) when you recognize that heat >capacity is what you're after. The stock solid rotors on my 318ti have >nearly half the rotational inertia of the vented variety. However, all >else being equal (piston diameter, rotor diameter, pads, swept area, >etc) the car just plain will does not have the braking capacity and >therefore is slower because you'll boil the fluid and over-heat the pad. >That's why I have 328 calipers and vented rotors on the car! I wasn't suggesting that the reduced rotating mass was beneficial to braking, just beneficial in general. A lighter rotor means less unsprung weight, and less rotating mass to accelerate. As I said, pretty much irrelevant on a street car, but every little bit helps in a serious race effort. That said, I replaced the pads and rotors at all 4 corners on my 325ic last weekend. Maybe it's my imagination, but I swear I can feel a difference (decrease) in acceleration. The car just *feels* heavier. I didn't think to weigh the new rotors before I put them on. I wonder what the increase in mass is compared to the old rotors. >Effectively your braking capacity is directly proportional to the added >heat capacity (mass) of the rotor. SO if you increase the mass by 25%, >your ability to absorb braking energy (transferred to heat) just went up >about 25%. Yes, the rotor has to absorb the energy/heat before it can >transfer it to the surrounding air! Good point! The average temperature of the rotor would increase due to the reduced mass but I was speculating that the increased surface area might increase the rate of heat transfer out of the rotor enough to offset it. The increased temperature differential between the rotor surface and the air would also increase the rate of heat transfer out of the rotor as well, no? >You don't want the rotor to hold >heat (that's why vented is so much better than solid of the same mass), >you want it to absorb and dissipate it as quickly as possible. Holding >heat in the rotor means transferring it to the pad/fluid/wheel bearing >etc. and obviously that's not the goal. Adding mass changes the rate of >temperature change (slower) in both directions heating and cooling (as >Gary indicated). However, increased mass means less temperature rise >for the same energy absorption, so the same braking maneuver that would >over-heat a lighter mass rotor would not with a higher mass rotor with >more capacity. I guess that's what it comes down to - the limiting factor is heat capacity, as the rotor will always have to absorb heat faster than it can dissipate it so the more heat it can absorb the harder it is to induce fade. Thanks for the insight! Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 12:16:24 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Is this a record? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Guys, I think my battery is finally starting to go, but get this, I looked up my records and this Interstate battery is 7 years and 4 months old. That seems like it's on the far right of the curve. -Kevin ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages) **********
