The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 80 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: distilled water or not? Re: distilled water or not? ADMIN: Re: distilled water or not? Re: ADMIN: Re: distilled water or not? Re: ADMIN: Re: distilled water or not? Re: <FS> Parts Microfiche - get 'em while they're hot! Re: Cross drilled? (was: Time for F rotors and pads - Re: Cross drilled? (was: Time for F rotors and pads - Re: distilled water or not?) Re: distilled water or not?) Re: distilled water or not? Re: distilled water or not? Cross drilled? Re: distilled water or not? Re: distilled water or not?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:34:04 -0500 From: "Michael Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: distilled water or not? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Those same cars you are talking about also spawned a nearly complete industry of Radiator repair services. Roding out a radiator? Which means to take the end caps off and stick a rod thru cleaning all of the build up from using Tap water? I can remember a local garage having fits when car companies started using plastic end tanks which were not easy to remove and reattach. They also used very harsh chemicals for flushes back in those days. So they had problems, in fact much more so than modern era cars which is due to better coolants etc. I have bought more than 1 used car which needed a radiator solely due to the original being too clogged to flow properly. For the original owner who sold the car at 100k miles or so, they didn't have to worry about the coolant as much as the 2nd or 3rd guy down the road (me). Mike -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Reed Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 9:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [UUC] distilled water or not? Wow, you must be really young. Or something. I don't think anybody I knew growing up ever used anything but tap water when they changed their coolant. Of course, they weren't driving BMW's, just Novas and Falcons, so they probably didn't realize how sensitive cars are. And those are the cars that lived a very long time. Sort of like all those chain smokers who've lived into their eighties, I guess. Reed > A couple of thoughts.... One, I've never, ever heard of someone putting > tap water in cooling systems. Always distilled. The other is it > needs to be distilled water, not spring or filtered water. Distilled > water by definition has no minerals (the distillation process leaves > behind everything), it is not the same as filtered water. > > Mark > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ________________________________________________________________________ __ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:54:27 -0800 From: "Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: distilled water or not? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Well, there ya go. You just need to buy newer cars and be the screwer instead of the screwee! Reed > Those same cars you are talking about also spawned a nearly complete > industry of Radiator repair services. Roding out a radiator? Which > means to take the end caps off and stick a rod thru cleaning all of the > build up from using Tap water? I can remember a local garage having > fits when car companies started using plastic end tanks which were not > easy to remove and reattach. They also used very harsh chemicals for > flushes back in those days. So they had problems, in fact much more so > than modern era cars which is due to better coolants etc. > > I have bought more than 1 used car which needed a radiator solely due to > the original being too clogged to flow properly. > > For the original owner who sold the car at 100k miles or so, they didn't > have to worry about the coolant as much as the 2nd or 3rd guy down the > road (me). > > Mike > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:26:50 -0500 From: UUC Digest Monitor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: ADMIN: Re: distilled water or not? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Easy killer. UUC Digest rule #1 - Talk about BMW's and related things UUC Digest rule #7 - No whining. This topic, albeit a little silly, is at least BMW related. If you are looking for politics, try #politics on the UnderNet IRC network, you will get your fill there. :) Oh, I almost forgot UUC Digest unwritten rule #10 - leave the moderation to the moderators. :) At 06:59 PM 3/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >What? Don't see the point in debating it? What else is there to talk >about? Better to have a nonsensical debate about radiator water than to >think seriously about the world political situation, or some other >depressing subject. > >Okay, fine, let's get back to endless theories on the usefulness of holes >in rotors. > >I suggest that this list needs to lighten up and realize we are all more >or less full of it. It's interesting to discuss this stuff, but let's not >take it all so seriously. > >Okay, let me have it! Michael K Donohue System Administrator UUC Digest http://www.uucdigest.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:00:35 -0800 From: "Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: ADMIN: Re: distilled water or not? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> You mean just mentioning politics is discussing politics and off-limits? Sorry, I guess I didn't realize this list was so tightly limited. Don't you think that's a little extreme? Everything I've said has been with tongue in cheek and an attempt to spark some humor and lively discussion. But if everyone just wants to trade part numbers, so be it. Reed ----- Original Message ----- From: "UUC Digest Monitor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 7:26 PM Subject: ADMIN: Re: [UUC] distilled water or not? > Easy killer. > > UUC Digest rule #1 - Talk about BMW's and related things > > UUC Digest rule #7 - No whining. > > This topic, albeit a little silly, is at least BMW related. > > If you are looking for politics, try #politics on the UnderNet IRC network, > you will get your fill there. :) > > Oh, I almost forgot UUC Digest unwritten rule #10 - leave the moderation to > the moderators. :) > > At 06:59 PM 3/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >What? Don't see the point in debating it? What else is there to talk > >about? Better to have a nonsensical debate about radiator water than to > >think seriously about the world political situation, or some other > >depressing subject. > > > >Okay, fine, let's get back to endless theories on the usefulness of holes > >in rotors. > > > >I suggest that this list needs to lighten up and realize we are all more > >or less full of it. It's interesting to discuss this stuff, but let's not > >take it all so seriously. > > > >Okay, let me have it! > > Michael K Donohue > System Administrator > UUC Digest > http://www.uucdigest.com > > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:54:21 -0500 From: UUC Digest Monitor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ADMIN: Re: distilled water or not? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reed. Look at the :) at the end of the sentence. Settle down you! :) <- please note smile. :) At 08:00 PM 3/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >You mean just mentioning politics is discussing politics and off-limits? >Sorry, I guess I didn't realize this list was so tightly limited. Don't >you think that's a little extreme? Everything I've said has been with >tongue in cheek and an attempt to spark some humor and lively discussion. >But if everyone just wants to trade part numbers, so be it. > >Reed Michael K Donohue System Administrator UUC Digest http://www.uucdigest.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:17:26 -0500 From: Neil Maller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: <FS> Parts Microfiche - get 'em while they're hot! Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 3/11/04 10:01 PM, "Brett Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Still got some left guys. Buy 'em in bulk and save me having to move them > to our new location. Yeah but never mind the microfiches: you did all that work raising the garage, and now you're moving shop??? Neil 96 M3 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:38:53 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Maverick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cross drilled? (was: Time for F rotors and pads - Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> They are the originals, pads and rotors. I too am a bit skeptical, but I know what my buddies havr told me...one worked on a pit crew back in the 70's on rally cars and said the holes made wet breaking better, especially after a long stretch without using the binders...more linear and not the big transistion from little to lot of breaking power that would lock up the wheels. One point that occured to me awhile back was what becomes of that thin layer of wter that ends up between the pads and rotor? When it starts to heat up, steam??? Maybe it is the steam that causes this? Also, I have driven in subzero weather with the same brakes and had no real change in performance. yes better when warmed, but nothing like when they are wet. I know it seems strange, but when you come of the interstate in a heavy rain at 3:00 am after working since 9:00 am the prior morning and it takes half the ramp to start feeling the brakes start to work right, you start looking for improvement. Yes I could probably nail them hard, but its not my style and doing such in a curve, in the wet, just seems to be asking for an armco rear spoiler. David -----Original Message----- From: "chet.dawes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Mar 11, 2004 12:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [UUC] Cross drilled? (was: Time for F rotors and pads - Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] David, Okay, remembering that the pad is nearly dragging on the rotor even without pressure and the rotor is spinning, how much water can really be between the pad and rotor interface to clear anyway? Once pressure is applied, the pad will act as a squeegee to keep water from getting into the interface surfaces. The spinning rotor takes care of the rest. That's probably your best method for clearing of water. That said, the high pressure and very quick addition of a lot of heat would likely make very quick work of any possible residual moisture that can hang on to a spinning rotor and get past the leading edge of the pad. I'd be more inclined to believe you're seeing poor brake performance on first apply in the wet due to the relatively low temperature of the pad/rotor. The rain/moisture will cool the rotor significantly. What type of pads are you using? Sport street pads can often have terrible cold performance especially on first application. The coefficient of friction varies greatly at the temperature extremes. Sorry, just my skeptical opinions of ANY need for cross-drilled rotors on modern cars other than aesthetics. Chet Dawes Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:33:27 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Maverick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have not tried them on this car, but past experience and checking with some old racing buddies tells me that cross-drilled rotors clear water much faster than plain ones. I am assuming that slotted should do better too, but I am unsure. The same effect that out-gassing pads have of floating the pads, drilling helps both issues. David A reduction of several car lengths is a HUGE positive improvement. But I have to admit, I'm a wee bit skeptical. Unless you're constantly driving through huge puddles of standing water that are six+ inches deep, I don't see how rain would cause a reduction in braking distance (by affecting the calipers as opposed, of course, to affecting tire grip) on any modern disc-braked car (as opposed to drums). Are you saying that the water gets onto the rotor and pads, and this prevents complete braking? And that drilling helps to evacuate that water? Have you compared drilled rotors v. solid rotors on the same car, in the rain, to arrive at your conclusion? If not, how did you reach your conclusion? I'm really curious, so whatever further info you can provide would be appreciated. thx, --Dennis **************************************************************************************** Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. **************************************************************************************** __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:42:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Maverick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cross drilled? (was: Time for F rotors and pads - Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Could be pad make has an impact. They are the originals and original rotors. I am unsure of the brand, but I do see the letters "AC" on the back of the front pads...kind of like the "AC" of AC sparkplugs. Did AC ever make pads for these little monsters??? I always thought they were either Pagid or Jurid. David -----Original Message----- From: "Dorffer, Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Mar 11, 2004 1:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [UUC] Cross drilled? (was: Time for F rotors and pads - Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] David said > > I am planning on using cross-drilled (probably Zimmerman) rotors when I > replace brakes on my 96ti sport. Either direct replacement, or if I get > ambitious 325 fronts (with the proper calipers). I am not sure of the > benefit of the drilling in cooling, but I am sure they help when driving in > the rain. I have several times been driving in rain and had to wait for the > brakes to clear water to get them to working. I am talking several car > lengths worth at speed, and as far as I am concerned, any reduction is a > positive one. I am betting this has more to do with the type of brake pad than the rotor. I have experienced similar issues where driving on the highway in the rain for extended periods without using the brakes will result in a short lag until the brakes work. I have found the problem to be more pronounced with pads such as Mintex Reds and PBR Metal Master. I have not had a problem with Jurid/Pagid/Textar/Ferodo. My choice of rotors remained constant (standard vented rotors...no grooves or holes). Marco said > > I can get brembos for around $50, I haven't found floaters for less than > $130. The Euros do look cooler ;-) but you will not get any improvement in > braking. You can get floating rotors for less than that. I have procured them for around $110 each. I do beleive there are some benefits to floating rotors....at double the cost, that is debatable. Regards, Rich __________________________________________________________________________ In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 20:54:56 -0800 From: Roger Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: distilled water or not?) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I bet you could find some research to back the chemistry why it's not a good idea to use tap water if you tried, even if you found it much more difficult to directly equate this to extra miles/years out of a given engine. What about the reduction in cooling efficiency after the cooling passages have a nice layer of insulation on them? And the flow? And the increased potential for galvanic corrosion between the dissimilar metals? It's your car so do what you want, but I've always used distilled water ever since I learned a little about chemistry. I've even had some bikes that warned owners not to use tap water or the warranty is void. -- Roger Baker "Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Some people wash their cars with bottled water, too. All a matter of how >obsessive you want to be. I doubt there's a shred of evidence that using >distilled water in your cooling system will extend engine life or >performance in any measurable way. It just sounds good, like changing your >oil every 3,000 miles. > >Reed/Seattle > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:20:57 -0800 From: "Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: distilled water or not?) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Okay, okay, I give up! I'm using Perrier from now on! I'll be driving the same damn car in 2054! > I bet you could find some research to back the chemistry why it's not a > good idea to use tap water if you tried, even if you found it much more > difficult to directly equate this to extra miles/years out of a given > engine. What about the reduction in cooling efficiency after the cooling > passages have a nice layer of insulation on them? And the flow? And the > increased potential for galvanic corrosion between the dissimilar > metals? It's your car so do what you want, but I've always used > distilled water ever since I learned a little about chemistry. I've even > had some bikes that warned owners not to use tap water or the warranty > is void. > -- > Roger Baker > ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 2004 08:43:16 +0200 From: Werner Gillmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: distilled water or not? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Our water is not too bad here, but still I don't want to take a chance. I think after reading the emails here I am going to go with distilled water, would have anyway, just wanted to see how many other people do it aswell. On Thu, 2004-03-11 at 22:54, Reed wrote: > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Well, that's different! I was assuming your tap water was decent. If your > water is so bad it's destroying your plumbing, I'd agree that bottled water > in the bimmer is a good idea. As far as I can tell our Seattle water hasn't > reached that stage, yet. > > Reed/Seattle > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brett Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "UUC Digest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2004 10:19 AM > Subject: Re: [UUC] distilled water or not? > > > > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > We're on well and septic here. We've invested thousands of dollars in > > filtration and purifying equipment to try and keep the plumbing alive. > > > > I still won't use the water in any of the cars. I used bottled water from > > the supermarket. > > > > If the mineral content of the water, even after filtration, can clog up > > shower heads and spigot screens, imagine what it can do to the tiny > channels > > in the radiator and heater core.... > > > > Brett Anderson > > KMS > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:32:45 -0800 From: "Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: distilled water or not? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Werner, I think that's a good idea. I was really just "stirring the pot". Reed > > Our water is not too bad here, but still I don't want to take a chance. > I think after reading the emails here I am going to go with distilled > water, would have anyway, just wanted to see how many other people do it > aswell. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:05:47 +0200 From: "Dave Edmondson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Cross drilled? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> How about moisture on the pad surface boiling? I suspect that steam / cast iron have a very low coeff of friction albeit for a very short time. Holes or slots would make a big difference here I guess. Dave Edmondson. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (27)-82-568-7266 '92 E34 535Ia ______________________________________________ E-mail Disclaimer and Company Information http://www.absa.co.za/ABSA/EMail_Disclaimer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:32:21 -0800 (PST) From: Tammer Farid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: distilled water or not? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm late to this, but I'll chime in: learn your local geology. Indiana (where I grew up as well) is mostly limestone bedrock. Calcium carbonate is water-soluble, but precipitates easily--in your cooling system. In certain areas (for instance, where the water table is in granitic or basaltic rock), the tap water would have a much lower concentration of minerals likely to precipitate in your car's (small) cooling passages. In all cases, as Karl mentioned, the distilled water is a no-brainer. Why take a chance when it's so cheap? $2 every two years. -Tammer F. --- Karl Zemlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have seen plenty of old radiators with visible crusty > crud deposited > inside. Any car where I have used distilled water has > never shown the > slightest hint of deposits. Here in Indianapolis our > water is VERY hard - I > wouldn't THINK to put tap water in a radiator. I grew up > in a town with > very good water and I'm sure it isn't as much of an > issue, but for the $2.00 > it's going to cost, I don't even see the point in > debating it. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:58:20 -0800 From: "Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: distilled water or not? Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Good grief! > I'm late to this, but I'll chime in: learn your local > geology. Indiana (where I grew up as well) is mostly > limestone bedrock. Calcium carbonate is water-soluble, but > precipitates easily--in your cooling system. > > In certain areas (for instance, where the water table is in > granitic or basaltic rock), the tap water would have a much > lower concentration of minerals likely to precipitate in > your car's (small) cooling passages. > > In all cases, as Karl mentioned, the distilled water is a > no-brainer. Why take a chance when it's so cheap? $2 > every two years. > > -Tammer F. ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages) **********
