The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 73 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: Dyno Run Mis-Information Re: Time for F rotors and pads - thinking Zimmerman Re: Time for F rotors and pads - thinking Zimmerman Re: SS brake lines Re: American cars more reliable????? kinda, slightly OT M Roadster Shocks Re: American cars more reliable????? kinda, slightly OT Re: 6-speeds for E36, was V12 & V8 Leasing a BMW Re: Leasing a BMW Re: Leasing a BMW Re: Time for F rotors and pads - thinking Zimmerman (TMS) Re: Time for F rotors and pads - thinking Zimmerman (TMS) Re: Time for F rotors and pads - thinking Zimmerman (TMS) Re: [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:25:11 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Dyno Run Mis-Information Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Standing start acceleration times require that you get the best possible launch. Car and Driver magazine is famous for getting really great launches, but destroying the clutch and driveline in the process. I use rolling start acceleration tests. 1. Five MPH to 60 MPH, shifting accordingly 2. From 1000 RPM to 6000 RPM in 2nd gear, which eliminates the variable of the upshift Feel free to add other tests or modify mine to suit your needs. Dyno runs are great for before and after testing, to measure the change of a mod. But to get engine power, the engine would have to be tested on an engine dyno, which requires removal from the car. Scott Miller GGC BMW CCA >Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:00:52 -0800 >From: "John Kjos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: Dyno Run Mis-Information >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Gary, > >Thanks. I just got a G2. Haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I have it >at least. What 0-60 and 1/4 mile times should I expect? I faintly recall a >0-60 (stock) time of 5.7 secs. Sound right? > >John Kjos >'99 540i/6: Dinan S >'01 525iTa: Stock >Portland, OR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 10:32:56 -0800 From: "J. Ochi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Time for F rotors and pads - thinking Zimmerman Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 08:03 AM 3/9/2004, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Currently running ATE Power Disc on 325 calipers/rotors. I liked them fine >but I'd like to try something new. Turner has Zimmerman crossdrilled front >rotors. I was thinking - match these with PBR (non-metal) pads (for longer >rotor life). Street braking habits are late and hard, with a few >autocrosses per year. Dust is not a big concern, but rotor life is. > >Suggestions? For street use, and even autocross use, you won't see any real difference between rotors. Slotted, drilled, or floating aren't going to make any difference in your braking distance, pedal feel, or fade resistance in street use, no matter how hard of a braker you think you are. If you really want to improve your braking, go to a more aggressive pad, like a Hawk HP+, Porterfield R4S, etc., etc., etc. Forget about rotor life - just buy the cheap OEM Brembo rotors for under 50 bucks each, and change them when needed. Jim Ochi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:03:30 -0800 (PST) From: Andre Yew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Time for F rotors and pads - thinking Zimmerman Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, J. Ochi wrote: > If you really want to improve your braking, go to a more aggressive pad, > like a Hawk HP+, Porterfield R4S, etc., etc., etc. Forget about rotor life > - just buy the cheap OEM Brembo rotors for under 50 bucks each, and change > them when needed. Or even stock rotors. I get stock front rotors for my E46 328 for c. $39 each from Pacific BMW. Every time I help friends change brakes on their (non-BMW) cars, I'm pleasantly surprised how cheap the parts are for non-M BMW brake jobs. --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 13:50:04 -0500 From: Neil Maller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: SS brake lines Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 3/9/04 10:04 AM, "Sean Cordone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm doing the brakes on the M3 next weekend. I decided to bring performance up > a notch, so I went with the Euro floating rotors; I'm also considering > stainless brake lines but I've heard two schools of thought on this issue. So > which is it: "worthwhile mod for the improved pedal feel"? Or "negligible > improvement for a street car, along with a long-term maintenance/reliability > issues"? Thanks, --SC My experience is that the improvement in pedal feel is modest, but real. I'm not sure to what degree those long term maintenance/reliability issues are real though. The conventional wisdom, as I understand it, is that road grit works its way through the outer SS braid and invisibly damages the inner hose, ultimately leading to failure. The only thing is, I've never heard of this actually happening to anybody. I stand willing to be corrected on this. But that doesn't matter! Both Earl's, see: http://www.bmpdesign.com/bmw/parts/catalog/brakes_5.shtml and at least one other brand (I forget which - anyone?) offer SS lines with a shrunk-on outer protective sleeve which renders the invisible damage argument moot. Or you can buy normal SS hoses and shrink on your own sleeving with a heat gun. Use high temp 3:1 shrink ratio polyolefin heatshrink, 0.75"/0.236" size, see: http://www.newark.com part numbers 84N606 (6" lengths) or 66N9267 (4' lengths). Works fine even at track temperatures. Neil 96 M3 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:03:19 -0500 From: "Chris Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: American cars more reliable????? kinda, slightly OT Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It's a confusing situation to predict the outcome of. The OEMs continue to put huge price pressure on the suppliers. The newest trend is a lot of the manufacturing going to China, which is well publicized. They tell you that to be considered as a source, you need to have good performance in delivery, quality, technology, and price. Then they send the request for quote to every company that they've heard of, and the first three measurables are assumed with only the price factor really counting. They just assume that if the quality sucks, they will make your life miserable until you fix it. Also, the trend for the last several years has been to pass warranty costs along to the supplier that is responsible wherever possible. This concept also applies to other areas. For example, if the assembly plant is having trouble assembling a component and they can find a dimensional issue with the component, the line downtime will be charged to the supplier. It doesn't seem to matter much whether or not the dimension in question is related to the downtime. You're not to print, you're paying. That particular dimension has been out of print for 5 years and nobody cared, doesn't matter - you're paying. You get the dimension corrected and it creates some other problem and doesn't fix the current problem, doesn't matter - you're paying. This may be a rather cynical view, but being a supplier will do that to you after awhile. Obviously, the suppliers have to find ways to make up these costs or they will go out of business. This tends to perpetuate the problem. Of course, the tier one supplier is a customer to the tier twos, and they are just as bad if not worse when it comes to these issues. There is no honor left in the auto business. The whole industry is extremely short sighted - OEMs and suppliers alike. They resist spending money that will save them down the road. "We know what we'll save, but do we know what it'll cost us?" scenario. Chris B. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rob Levinson Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 12:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [UUC] American cars more reliable????? kinda, slightly OT Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ---- Original Message ---- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [UUC] American cars more reliable????? kinda, slightly OT > >It's a pretty sad day when American cars are typically reported as >more reliable than anything. There has never been a really good reason for American-made cars to be less reliable other than economics. Quality level X = production cost Y + warranty cost Z. X factored into total marketing scheme was reasonably lower for many years, and the reaction to adjust the formula (accounting for ground-level anti-marketing from disgruntled customers sitting in service area waiting rooms) to bring X higher has undoubtedly been a slow and difficult process. But the domestics are businesses, and when it makes sense to spend money to make money, common sense dictates that they will eventually spend the money. If quality sells as well as cupholders, then quality will be installed as standard equipment. Why this has taken so long (especially considering the huge rush of sales that Buick enjoyed from the textbook late-'80s LeSabre high quality review) is partly a mystery, partly testament to the ovewhelming inertia of large corporations. 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:16:13 -0600 From: "Bob Hyre" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: M Roadster Shocks Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> All, One of the original rear shocks on the M Roadster has started to leak oil at 62k miles. I think that I will replace all 4 shocks with Bilstein HD's since the car only infrequently autocrosses. I am afraid that if I do H&R lowered springs, sport shocks and stiffer sway bars at the same time that I won't like the ride for the street. While I am in there, should I replace the upper rear shock mounts too? I haven't heard if the M Roadster is subject to this failure like M3's. Is there anything else that I should look at while I'm going? Thanks, Bob Hyre Houston, TX '98 M Roadster '00 540iAT ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 14:38:42 -0500 From: "Rob Levinson * UUC Motorwerks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: American cars more reliable????? kinda, slightly OT Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dadgar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > A large part of why it's taken so long is misplaced patriotism. > > "Buy American, even if it sucks." > > Where is the incentive for the auto makers to improve their products if > people are going to buy them anyway? Completely true, but many consumers are seeing beyond that now, so it has less real-dollar relevance. - Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 19:40:08 -0000 From: "Andrew Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "jkerouac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: 6-speeds for E36, was V12 & V8 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Barry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: "re: E36 axle ratios: Would that Japanese market 3.73 be as heavy duty as the E36 //M3 or in the same service strength as the 3.45 from the 318i?" It appears to be the same kind of "regular strength" diff as the 3.38/3.45 from the 318i, the 3.15 from the 325i, and so on. Andy T ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 11:43:56 -0800 From: Steve Albrecht <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Leasing a BMW Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Joel Gallun writes: I wonder what the economics of leasing are when the residual values approach zero? According to Auto-Spies, BMW ranks #1 in leasing value due to their resale superior value as well as their consumer oriented money factor. I wonder where you got your data regarding residual values Joel. Cheers Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:29:12 -0500 From: "Brett Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "UUC Digest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Leasing a BMW Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I think Joel was referring to the 8 year old E65 7 series, which is going to be worthless. Brett Anderson KMS > -----Original Message----- > > Joel Gallun writes: I wonder what the economics of leasing are when the > residual values approach zero? > > According to Auto-Spies, BMW ranks #1 in leasing value due to their > resale superior value as well as their consumer oriented money factor. > I wonder where you got your data regarding residual values Joel. > > Cheers > Steve > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 16:11:02 -0500 From: ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Leasing a BMW Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Steve Albrecht wrote: > According to Auto-Spies, BMW ranks #1 in leasing value due to their > resale superior value as well as their consumer oriented money factor. > I wonder where you got your data regarding residual values Joel. this may also be a function of subsidized leases from BMS FS and their effect on residual values as well as the number of off-lease cars which are CPO'ed and have their value increased by that being included in their re-sale price. Ben enjoyed his leased BMW, won't lease again, likely won't buy new either... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:50:27 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Time for F rotors and pads - thinking Zimmerman (TMS) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I can only think of two advantages to drilled rotors: 1. Cooling. 2. Scraping the glaze off the pads before it transfers to the rotors. Disadvantages: 1. Unless you increase the size of the rotor, you have less metal to heat up. Braking converts motion to heat, so you don't want to reduce heat capacity. 2. Your pads will not last as long (the cheese grater effect). I'd stick with a good quality rotor (like Balo), choose better pads and, if your brakes are fading, switch to higher temp brake fluid and improve cooling by ducting more air to the brakes. Well, you asked. Scott Miller GGC BMW CCA >Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:03:24 -0500 >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Time for F rotors and pads - thinking Zimmerman (TMS) >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Currently running ATE Power Disc on 325 calipers/rotors. I liked them fine >but I'd like to try something new. Turner has Zimmerman crossdrilled front >rotors. I was thinking - match these with PBR (non-metal) pads (for longer >rotor life). Street braking habits are late and hard, with a few >autocrosses per year. Dust is not a big concern, but rotor life is. > >Suggestions? > > >Phil > >1995 325 Ti Club Sport ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:35:05 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Brian Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Time for F rotors and pads - thinking Zimmerman (TMS) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >I can only think of two advantages to drilled rotors: > >1. Cooling. >2. Scraping the glaze off the pads before it transfers to the rotors. I'd also add 3. Reduced rotating weight (the best kind to get rid of!) Of course this is entirely irrelevant in a street application. > >Disadvantages: > >1. Unless you increase the size of the rotor, you have less metal to heat >up. Braking converts motion to heat, so you don't want to reduce heat >capacity. Less metal to heat up, but more surface area to dissipate heat. Heat capacity isn't really the critical factor - you don't want the rotors to absorb heat, you want them to radiate heat. Reduced mass might have an effect on the probability of warping though, not sure about that aspect. Any engineers out there who know the math to calculate the net effect of lost mass vs. increased surface area? >2. Your pads will not last as long (the cheese grater effect). I'd also add 3. Increased likelihood of cracking around the drilled holes (although this seems to be largely a matter of religious belief on both sides of the argument). If I recall correctly the big dollar "drilled" rotors on Porsche GT2's etc. aren't actually drilled, the holes are cast into the rotors. Any materials scientists out there who know about the grain structure of cast iron and how drilling affects it? Brian '94 325ic (treated to new garden variety rotors and pads last weekend) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:14:55 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Time for F rotors and pads - thinking Zimmerman (TMS) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Added mass causes the rotor to heat and cool more slowly. Added surface area increases convection. The answer is it depends. With long stops and long cooling periods in between the added mass may be better. With many shorter stops, the added cooling may be better. It also depends on if your brakes are ducted properly to take advantage of the extra cooling. Gary [no answer today] Derian --- Brian Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Search the > ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >I can only think of two advantages to drilled > rotors: > > > >1. Cooling. > >2. Scraping the glaze off the pads before it > transfers to the rotors. > > I'd also add 3. Reduced rotating weight (the best > kind to get rid of!) Of course this is entirely > irrelevant in a street application. > > > > >Disadvantages: > > > >1. Unless you increase the size of the rotor, you > have less metal to heat > >up. Braking converts motion to heat, so you don't > want to reduce heat > >capacity. > > Less metal to heat up, but more surface area to > dissipate heat. Heat capacity isn't really the > critical factor - you don't want the rotors to > absorb heat, you want them to radiate heat. Reduced > mass might have an effect on the probability of > warping though, not sure about that aspect. Any > engineers out there who know the math to calculate > the net effect of lost mass vs. increased surface > area? > > >2. Your pads will not last as long (the cheese > grater effect). > > I'd also add 3. Increased likelihood of cracking > around the drilled holes (although this seems to be > largely a matter of religious belief on both sides > of the argument). If I recall correctly the big > dollar "drilled" rotors on Porsche GT2's etc. aren't > actually drilled, the holes are cast into the > rotors. Any materials scientists out there who > know about the grain structure of cast iron and how > drilling affects it? > > Brian > '94 325ic (treated to new garden variety rotors and > pads last weekend) > > > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, > founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and > home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:52:31 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages) Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Brett, Why not use the 91 M50 t-stat housing? Steve ***************** >Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:33:37 -0500 >From: "Brett Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: 1997 E36 M3/4 - aluminum thermostat housing > >They work fine. �I stock them and install them on every M50/M52 variant that >comes in. > >Make sure you get the good one, not the 91 M50 version. > >Brett Anderson >KMS > > >> -----Original Message----- >> Has anyone tried one of the aluminum thermostat housings that are >> manufactured to OEM specs for the E36 M3 with the S52? �I know >> the original is plastic, and I've heard horror stories from >> friends that have all broken them trying to replace the >> thermostat. �Will the thermal conductivity of an aluminum housing >> change the dynamics of the cooling system in a negative way? >> -matt ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages) **********
