The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 564 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Re: track time was e36 brake pads Re: track time
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:45:41 -0500 From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Example: I do a lot of instructing for the Audi Club. They > tend to have a lot of students with 400HP chipped, > coil-over'd, Hoosier'd S4's. > We spend a lot of time blazing down the straights and > creeping through the corners. :) You act like this is only an Audi club problem. ;) This is one of the things that really drives me up the wall in a lower-hp car like mine. Go blazing down the straight, piddle through the corners with 10 cars on yer a$$ & then blast off down the straightaway away from everybody. Repeat 9-17 times per lap. I call it the 6-cylinder M3 syndrome, as these guys are BY FAR & AWAY the worst transgressors. It kills me to be 6-7sec a lap faster than some 300hp car only to catch him in every corner, pace him, try to slingshot by out of the corner & still have him kick it & easily out-drag me down the straight. This is why I won't do CCA events in the SE. I noticed that this got a lot worse as I went from the beginner groups to the advanced groups too, so it's actually the advanced drivers (or the ones who think they're advanced) who do this most. > > To go a bit further, sometimes those car mods really hold > back a driver's progress in learning to drive because they > can mask problems. > Race brake pads are a good example, actually. You can get > away with a lot of bad braking techniques when you've got > high-temp pads (particularly relative to your skill level/speed). The actual problem, IMHO is the arena where the event is held. An FIA-compliant track is no place to be learning threshold braking, drifting, car control, or other advanced concepts. These are concepts that should be pretty thoroughly practiced before trying to flat-foot it through T6 or T12 at Road Atl. The only way to really learn the limits of a car is to exceed them, and exceed them a lot. Over & over. It takes a lot of practice to catch the back end of a car coming around on you at 115mph, and if you haven't done it over & over at slower speeds working up to that.......well, you'll likely get to know your local body guy really well. No racing school I know of starts anybody off on a track, yet the CCA, PCA, etc do all the time, at the expense of many twisted cars. Until these clubs start having some kind of car control exercises before hand & requiring some autocross, you're going to keep seeing this. The reason the guys in $50k Audis are going through corners so slowly is that likely they've never had the opportunity to drift the car, spin it, trailbrake, etc in a safe enough environment to feel confident enough to go cooking through a corner. Sorry, but I did it the right way. I started in autox & did it for several years, even picking a lot of local wins in a tough class. About 4 years ago, I got invited to start instructing a local car control clinic where I spent every minute the students were in class or after they left driving the car sideways on skidpads, 500ft boxes & wet, soapy autocrosses. Both of these arenas allowed me to SEVERLY over-drive the car without any real repercussions, hence I learned a lot more quickly & thoroughly--had I tried that on track, who knows???? Hence, after steam-rolling beginners in the first school, I was promoted to the advanced group for my second & then the solo group for my 3rd event (which I actually don't care for as solo or not, I'm still paying for an instructor). Sorry, but all the time I put in at that low speed stuff still has me far enough ahead where I run down most everybody in the adv groups easily & some instructors. Racers & guys in supercars still blow my doors off though. That's definitely one thing I recognize, that while apparently really fast, I'm still light-years (well 2-3 seconds anyway) off the racers, and I'm ok with that as I'll likely never get the quantity of seat time to make that up. > > > - Mark Lee ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:52:04 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Feb 25, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Robinson, Lee wrote: > You act like this is only an Audi club problem. ;) I was not implying that. :) >> To go a bit further, sometimes those car mods really hold >> back a driver's progress in learning to drive because they >> can mask problems. >> Race brake pads are a good example, actually. You can get >> away with a lot of bad braking techniques when you've got >> high-temp pads (particularly relative to your skill level/speed). > > The actual problem, IMHO is the arena where the event is held. An > FIA-compliant track is no place to be learning threshold braking, > drifting, > car control, or other advanced concepts. These are concepts that > should be > pretty thoroughly practiced before trying to flat-foot it through T6 > or T12 > at Road Atl. The only way to really learn the limits of a car is to > exceed > them, and exceed them a lot. Over & over. It takes a lot of practice > to > catch the back end of a car coming around on you at 115mph, and if you > haven't done it over & over at slower speeds working up to > that.......well, > you'll likely get to know your local body guy really well. No racing > school > I know of starts anybody off on a track, yet the CCA, PCA, etc do all > the > time, at the expense of many twisted cars. BMW CCA *does not* hold racing schools. We hold driving schools. Period. > Until these clubs start having some kind of car control exercises > before > hand & requiring some autocross, you're going to keep seeing this. The GGC does this. Our one-day Car Control Clinics are required before a driving school. > reason the guys in $50k Audis are going through corners so slowly is > that > likely they've never had the opportunity to drift the car, spin it, > trailbrake, etc in a safe enough environment to feel confident enough > to go > cooking through a corner. The Audi Club, at least here on the Left Coast, does Car Control exercises in the paddock the morning of the first day for beginner students. But in general I agree with you. Everyone wants to skip the basics and just Go Really Fast, at the expense of really learning to drive. - Mark Driving Events Coordinator, GGC BMW CCA ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:15:02 -0500 From: CsWs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:52:04 -0800, Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Feb 25, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Robinson, Lee wrote: > BMW CCA *does not* hold racing schools. We hold driving schools. > Period. Mark, Actually the BMWCCA does hold racing schools. They generally fall under the CR side of the club, but they do hold 1 or 2 racing schools a yr. I believe Nelson Ledges tends to be the general local for them. Karl Rentler #747 KP -- "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough." Mario Andretti ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:17:18 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: UUC Digest <[email protected]> Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:15 PM, CsWs wrote: >> On Feb 25, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Robinson, Lee wrote: > >> BMW CCA *does not* hold racing schools. We hold driving schools. >> Period. > Actually the BMWCCA does hold racing schools. > > They generally fall under the CR side of the club, but they do hold 1 > or 2 racing schools a yr. I believe Nelson Ledges tends to be the > general local for them. Yeah, I know. But we were really talking about driving schools, not the racing program. - Mark ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:29:07 -0500 From: CsWs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: UUC Digest <[email protected]> Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The race program is still part of the BMWCCA? ;) You correctly state that they are never part of a "regular" driving school. Karl #747 KP On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:17:18 -0800, Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:15 PM, CsWs wrote: > >> On Feb 25, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Robinson, Lee wrote: > > > >> BMW CCA *does not* hold racing schools. We hold driving schools. > >> Period. > > Actually the BMWCCA does hold racing schools. > > > > They generally fall under the CR side of the club, but they do hold 1 > > or 2 racing schools a yr. I believe Nelson Ledges tends to be the > > general local for them. > > Yeah, I know. But we were really talking about driving schools, not > the racing program. > > - Mark "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough." Mario Andretti ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:24:15 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:29 PM, CsWs wrote: > The race program is still part of the BMWCCA? ;) At the moment. :) > You correctly state that they are never part of a "regular" driving > school. The context of the conversation was driving schools. :) - Mark ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:58:36 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Dorffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Example: I do a lot of instructing for the Audi Club. They > > tend to have a lot of students with 400HP chipped, > > coil-over'd, Hoosier'd S4's. > > We spend a lot of time blazing down the straights and > > creeping through the corners. :) > > You act like this is only an Audi club problem. ;) This is one of the > things that really drives me up the wall in a lower-hp car like mine. Go > blazing down the straight, piddle through the corners with 10 cars on yer > a$$ & then blast off down the straightaway away from everybody. Repeat 9-17 > times per lap. I call it the 6-cylinder M3 syndrome, as these guys are BY > FAR & AWAY the worst transgressors. Hmmm, very interesting, we have the near opposite problem here in the Midwest where I can routinely reel in E30 M3s and they won't let me by on the straight after trailing directly behind them through a bunch of turns as they are too ashamed to admit to being slower... Yes, I drive an E36 M3 and not particularly aggressively either, I am there to learn and to drive home in it. > It kills me to be 6-7sec a lap faster > than some 300hp car only to catch him in every corner, pace him, try to > slingshot by out of the corner & still have him kick it & easily out-drag me > down the straight. You need to stop attending the Porsche schools then... ;-) Later, Rich ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:33:10 -0800 (PST) From: Andre Yew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, Robinson, Lee wrote: > I call it the 6-cylinder M3 syndrome, as these guys are BY > FAR & AWAY the worst transgressors. It kills me to be 6-7sec a lap faster > than some 300hp car only to catch him in every corner, pace him, try to > slingshot by out of the corner & still have him kick it & easily out-drag me > down the straight. E39 M5 drivers often act like this on the west coast :-). Seriously, I'm surprised these drivers weren't black-flagged for not letting you by. > The only way to really learn the limits of a car is to exceed > them, and exceed them a lot. The Skip Barber people would disagree with you on this. If you are a consistent driver, you can approach the limits incrementally, and know when you're coming close. This is really boring, but it works, and it requires consistency, which is perhaps one of the most difficult skills to build. > Until these clubs start having some kind of car control exercises before > hand & requiring some autocross, you're going to keep seeing this. The Golden Gate Chapter (in the San Francisco area) requires attendance at one of their car control clinics for first-time track students. There's a dry skid-pad, avoidance exercises, and other car-control things. I think the east coast chapters have something similar as well. The bad accidents that I've seen here are usually someone going off the track not straight, or trying to save their car by pinching off their turn, so they end up rolling their car in the first case, or, for the second case, pinballing off the walls (exit of the Carousel at Sears Point), or rolling their car if there are no walls. These incidents have been very rare in the CCA events I've attended, but they tend to be caused by bad judgment more than lack of technique. We also have our share of carnage-on-wheels schools here, so it sounds like the smart track student does their research for their region first, and finds the good schools. --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:14:13 -0500 From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I call it the "540i b*tch" syndrome. In that case, the instructor was requiring the high-horsepower car to let the truly faster cars by... Unkle Kartlos and a few others know the story well. Others wrote: > > I call it the 6-cylinder M3 syndrome, as these guys are BY > > FAR & AWAY the worst transgressors. It kills me to be 6-7sec a lap faster > > than some 300hp car only to catch him in every corner, pace him, try to > > slingshot by out of the corner & still have him kick it & easily out-drag me > > down the straight. > > E39 M5 drivers often act like this on the west coast :-). Seriously, I'm > surprised these drivers weren't black-flagged for not letting you by. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:35:48 -0800 (PST) From: Carlos Lopez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I call it the "540i b*tch" syndrome. In that case, the instructor >was requiring the high-horsepower car to let the truly faster cars >by... Unkle Kartlos and a few others know the story well. Yes but I don't think I can retell that story. :-) I simply call it "I have more horsepower than you" syndrome. And it's not limited to the student groups either, I've seen instructors do it, racers do it, etc. Not just E30/E36 M3 guys either although those are the worst offenders I'm sure. :-) Carlos. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:47:22 -0800 (PST) From: Andre Yew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mark, Could you explain more what good braking technique is, and how bad technique destroys pads? This is a question I've been wondering about, and I've never received a satisfactory answer in years of driving schools here in California. Thanks. --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:54:15 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: e36 brake pads - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Feb 25, 2005, at 11:47 AM, Andre Yew wrote: > Could you explain more what good braking technique is, and how bad > technique destroys pads? This is a question I've been wondering about, > and I've never received a satisfactory answer in years of driving > schools > here in California. Thanks. You really want me to open that can of worms (Hi Gary!)? In short, my suggestions: - get on and off the brakes smoothly but quickly - get on the brakes hard and then get off them. This gives them time to cool between uses. - brake shorter and harder versus lighter and longer. Again, cooling. - BE SMOOTH YMMV. - Mark ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:17:04 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: e36 spring rates - track cars Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The period of oscillation (reciprocal of frequency) for the rear should be shorter than for the front. This way it catches up with the front and cancels pitching motion or porpoising. The rear period should be the front period less the time taken to traverse the wheelbase. Gary Derian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [UUC] e36 spring rates - track cars > For my own edification, why would this be better for ride? I can > understand > why stiffer front springs would require more steering attention due to > bumps, etc, but why would a softer front bias improve the overall ride? I > can also imagine that this would increase brake dive & the car's tendency > to > understeer. > > I do know that the coil-over & stiff-springed E36 M3s I've driven were > much > more fun than the stock cars while also feeling more balanced & > controllable. > > Lee > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Derian >> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 19:40 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [UUC] e36 spring rates - track cars >> >> You will note that the street springs are much stiffer in the >> rear than the front. Even when converted to wheel rate >> (motion ratio^2) the rear rate will be higher than the front. >> This is an important feature for a good ride. >> >> The race guys run much stiffer in the front. This is bad for ride. >> >> Another consideration is the stock shock mounts are useless >> when the shock rates get stiff, as they must when going to >> very stiff springs. >> >> Gary Derian > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:44:23 -0500 From: "Steve Stoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: track time was e36 brake pads Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lee sez "I call it the 6-cylinder M3 syndrome" Hey that's me. But not really. The National Capitol Chapter CCA does do a driver control clinic at Summit Point and it includes wet skid pad, laps on the small track at Summit without using brakes and other fun car control exercises. The knowledge gained on the skid pad applied to the track is like the knowledge gained in doing assembly language programming to understanding higher level programming languages and computers in general. My experience in my 97M3 running with NASA in the solo group, having progressed through novice and intermediate and having had some damn good instructors (my first instructor after my first session, flat told me that I didn't know shit and the car was saving my ass) (and still take an instructor along when I could be soloing) is that this syndrome is much broader based and also includes C5 z06 Corvettes, race prepped mustangs, scalded Subarus, Nissan 350Zs and about anything else that goes fast in a straight line. The only reason I think I might not have the syndrome is that some times by the end of a session I have passed everyone in the run group. I've done nothing to the M3 for power increases, and instead have focused on suspension and chassis tweaks like short shift, tranny mounts, xbrace, strut brace, koni SA, better RSMs etc. Still running street tires but not running stock pads. The thing is that I'm going fast enough and getting close enough to some limits that I need to upgrade the saftey componets like roll bar/cage, harness etc before really exploring the next level of capability of the car. I know I'm not the first person to get to this point. Steve Stoner 97M3 - maybe should try autocross this year ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:33:47 -0500 From: "Marc Plante" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: track time Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The other thing the NCC chapter school has is Summit Point's Jefferson Circuit. It's a 1.1 mi track with one of every type of turn in it. Great location to teach students, and the speeds are slower so you can really explore the limits of the car, even in the rain. Those of you around the country with segmented tracks, consider teaching schools on a smaller, slower portion of a full track. Autocross is another good way to hone skills, but remember that skills applicable to an autox run at 30-70 mph can be dangerous on a track. You need to match your reactions to the car's speed. Reactions on a track will need to be quicker, but more subtle because of the increased speed...Two more months til seat time. About time for me to get itchy enough to fire up GPL on the PC for a bit. Marc Plante E36 M3/4 Vienna VA (Looking out the window at snow) ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(15 messages) **********
