The BMW UUC Digest Volume 2 : Issue 891 : "text" Format Messages in this Issue: Re: Dinan Chips Re: Dinan Chips Re: Dinan Chips Re: Dinan Chips Re: Dinan Chips Re: Dinan Chips Re: Dinan Chips Re: Dinan Chips Re: Dinan Chips Re: Dinan Chips Re: Dinan Chips Re: Dinan Chips Re: <E46> Throttle control
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:19:08 -0800 (PST) From: P Kroon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Michael Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [email protected] Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike, Thanks for the info. As I mentioned, my experience with mail order chips for stock cars is that they generally don't do anything useful (removing the 155 mph speed limit is NOT useful to me) and show no measureable improvements. I was a little suspicious when I looked at the Dinan website and they quoted crankshaft hp numbers. Unless they actually tested for crank hp, that is meaningless IMO. Thanks, Paul --- Michael Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not to start a Dinan bashing thread but I helped > with a dyno session for a > 95 M3 with a 95 M3 LTW motor using Dinan, Conforti > and a custom chip. > > For that car on that dyno on that day, the dinan > chip provided 0 ZERO, nada, > nothing, no extra hp vs the conforti chip doing as > advertised AND the > custom chip providing another 9 hp. > > YMMV but other sources have echoed the same when > tested on a dyno. I had a > dinan chip in a 87 535is and could not tell a > difference between it and > stock but only did timed runs in 3rd gear. No > improvement what so ever. > > Some claim to feel huge differences but then again > so do 39% of any test > group when given a placebo. > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:bmwuucdigest- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P Kroon > > Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 11:48 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Brian Ruiz > > Cc: UUC Digest > > Subject: [UUC] Dinan Chips > > > > Anyone have any dyno results from a stock 95 M3 > after > > adding a Dinan chip? Most of my experience with > chips > > and stock cars relates to OBII Mustangs, and > generally > > proves that there is little to no improvement to > be > > gained by them. I can purchase a Dinan chip on > Ebay > > for about $60, but I just want to see if their > claims > > are legit or not. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Paul > > 95 M3 (soon to have snow tires) > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > Search the > ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, > founder of the BMW CCA. > > > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and > home of the Ultimate > > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - > Release Date: 12/9/2005 > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - > Release Date: 12/9/2005 > > > > Search the > ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, > founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and > home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:53:11 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Dec 9, 2005, at 1:19 PM, P Kroon wrote: > I was a little suspicious when I looked at the Dinan > website and they quoted crankshaft hp numbers. Unless > they actually tested for crank hp, that is meaningless > IMO. Not to defend Dinan, since I prefer the Conforti chips, but the conversion from crank to wheel horsepower is pretty well-understood at this point. - Mark ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 14:13:54 -0800 (PST) From: P Kroon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [email protected] Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mark, Maybe it is different with BMWs, but from my experience with Mustangs, the conversion between crank and wheel hp ratings is anything but straight forward. Many people ASSume a drivetrain lose (often about 15% for a manual and 20% for an auto), but many will argue that a straight percent is not accurate. Case in point, why would the exact same drive train require (lose) 20 hp with a 100 bhp engine but 40 hp from a 200 bhp engine? Granted things are accelerating faster with a more powerful engine, I doubt twice as much power is lost from the drivetrain with the second motor. Is there a well documented percent drivetrain loss for BMWs? I have NO preference between ANY of the chip manufacturers; heck, I know very little about any of them. Since Dinan almost certainly measured the power at the wheels with their chip, however, why not report it that way. There is a LOT less wiggle room that way IMO. -Paul 95 M3 98 Panoz AIV 03 G35 --- Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not to defend Dinan, since I prefer the Conforti > chips, but the > conversion from crank to wheel horsepower is pretty > well-understood > at this point. > > - Mark > ----- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: > http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar > > Search the > ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, > founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and > home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 14:18:08 -0800 From: Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: UUC Digest <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Dec 9, 2005, at 2:13 PM, P Kroon wrote: > Maybe it is different with BMWs, but from my > experience with Mustangs, the conversion between crank > and wheel hp ratings is anything but straight forward. > Many people ASSume a drivetrain lose (often about 15% > for a manual and 20% for an auto), but many will argue > that a straight percent is not accurate. Case in > point, why would the exact same drive train require > (lose) 20 hp with a 100 bhp engine but 40 hp from a > 200 bhp engine? Granted things are accelerating > faster with a more powerful engine, I doubt twice as > much power is lost from the drivetrain with the second > motor. Seems straightforward to me. All else being equal (aero, etc), you want to accelerate an object to twice the speed, you need twice the power. And accelerating and decelerating drivetrain parts is what we're doing. Plus friction, of course, but that's affected by applied power, too. Hey Derian, WTF are you? > Is there a well documented percent drivetrain > loss for BMWs? 18%, per Jim Conforti, for a manual trans. Don't much care about automatic. :) - Mark ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Check out my JustRacing Home Page at: http://www.justracing.com/homepage/mdadgar ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 23:48:10 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mark Dadgar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm here. I don't have much to add. Good chips do well. On BMWs older engines respond more because they were more conservatively tuned. Chips that add power reduce the safety margin in internal engine temperatures and detonation. Newer engines are tuned close to the edge but have more sensors (detonation, wide band exhaust oxygen, exhaust temperature, combustion gas ionization) to gain back the durability. What matters is the acceleration of the vehicle. Applying a number to engine power is difficult to do. Air, coolant, oil temperatures, fuel composition and temperature and the lubricants and temperatures of the drive train all have an effect. Also rotating inertia has a large influence on acceleration, especially in the lower gears. Gary Derian > > Hey Derian, WTF are you? > >> Is there a well documented percent drivetrain >> loss for BMWs? > > > 18%, per Jim Conforti, for a manual trans. Don't much care about > automatic. :) > > - Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:52:57 -0800 From: Kazuto Okayasu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 12:52 PM 12/9/2005, Michael Lawrence wrote: I guess this is what's being heard quite a lot these days regarding Dinan's claims. Not surprisingly, Steve Dinan has published a "white paper" that tries to refute these "Dinan stuff doesn't do jack" claims. http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9 I read this some time ago and found it somewhat amusing. It has a tone reminiscent of "white papers" sometimes published by $100/ft speaker cable peddlers. IMO, If you can't feel it, or you have to have very specific conditions and equipment to measure it, why bother? -Kaz 88 M6 mechanically stock 221 rwhp 01 325iT mechanically stock 171 rwhp >Not to start a Dinan bashing thread but I helped with a dyno session for a >95 M3 with a 95 M3 LTW motor using Dinan, Conforti and a custom chip. > >For that car on that dyno on that day, the dinan chip provided 0 ZERO, nada, >nothing, no extra hp vs the conforti chip doing as advertised AND the >custom chip providing another 9 hp. > >YMMV but other sources have echoed the same when tested on a dyno. I had a >dinan chip in a 87 535is and could not tell a difference between it and >stock but only did timed runs in 3rd gear. No improvement what so ever. > >Some claim to feel huge differences but then again so do 39% of any test >group when given a placebo. > >Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:bmwuucdigest- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P Kroon > > Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 11:48 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Brian Ruiz > > Cc: UUC Digest > > Subject: [UUC] Dinan Chips > > > > Anyone have any dyno results from a stock 95 M3 after > > adding a Dinan chip? Most of my experience with chips > > and stock cars relates to OBII Mustangs, and generally > > proves that there is little to no improvement to be > > gained by them. I can purchase a Dinan chip on Ebay > > for about $60, but I just want to see if their claims > > are legit or not. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Paul > > 95 M3 (soon to have snow tires) > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005 > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005 > > > >Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > >__________________________________________________________________________ >In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > >UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate >Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! >908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com Kazuto Okayasu Manager, Desktop Support Services Administrative Computing Services, University of California, Irvine [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 16:32:02 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Kazuto Okayasu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> After reading Dinan's article I tend to agree with his basic premise. Wrt air flow, recently I had a wasted day at the dyno. It showed 6hp less, at 100 rpm lower peak. Air/fuel was less even, richer across the board with more richening at higher revs than from dyno 1. I turned back the fuel pressure to force it leaner but the higher rev richening still happened. It was a dyno day at a different dyno than the prior testing. Same type, air temperature about the same, same spark plugs 9k miles later, new tires, only change to engine tuning was a Turbohose intake boot rather than the stock accordion bellows, and that was the purpose of the testing. Prior to going to the dyno, road testing on the new intake boot within the limits of my hand held stopwatch on many passes in 3rd gear of 60-80 showed no loss, and possibly bit less than half a tenth of a second quicker. The only real difference at dyno 2 vs dyno 1 was the fans. At dyno 1, the car had many runs to dial in fuel pressure, and the last few were +/-1hp of each other. Dyno 1 had two big impeller fans with rectangular outlets. One blowing in the radiator grill, the other in the foglight hole air duct blowing straight up to the UUC Viper airbox. There was a good breeze blowing through that duct. Dyno 2 had a propeller fan blowing on the front middle of the car with no provision for getting fan blown air into the duct. There was less airflow to the radiator and minimal airstream to the airbox. My experience doesn't prove what Dinan is saying, but it does agree with Dinan's premises about ariflow and tires, and the 6 hp difference is consistent with some of the results he presents. Until Dinan opens their dyno to the public to buy testing time, I'll return to the more expensive dyno 1 for further testing. Barry //remembers those Monster Cable ads promising taillight screw loosening bass from 4x10 Jensen tri-axials.// Kazuto Okayasu wrote: > At 12:52 PM 12/9/2005, Michael Lawrence wrote: > I guess this is what's being heard quite a lot these days regarding > Dinan's claims. Not surprisingly, Steve Dinan has published a "white > paper" that tries to refute these "Dinan stuff doesn't do jack" claims. > http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9 > I read this some time ago and found it somewhat amusing. It has a > tone reminiscent of "white papers" sometimes published by $100/ft > speaker cable peddlers. > IMO, If you can't feel it, or you have to have very specific > conditions and equipment to measure it, why bother? > -Kaz > 88 M6 mechanically stock 221 rwhp > 01 325iT mechanically stock 171 rwhp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:42:48 -0800 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dinan does smooth out the powerband through the vanos transition. But they, and other tuners too, give their max hp improvement claims where the improvement is greatest. It makes the best advertising. So if its 184 hp at 5400 rpm during vanos transition and now they get 196 at the same rpms, that's where the 12 hp number comes from. Dinan's stage 4 mappings are spoken highly about by some on the Norcal list who have done 540i/ euro M3 MAF conversions. Om my larger MAF tube with stock sensor project, I ran a test car with the stock mapping and my intake and injectors, and the stock mapping gave only about two more hp with my stuff on it, but ran rich down to about 11:1 a/f, maybe a failsafe mode programmed in to the stock map in case parameter exceed expected values. Barry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I bought a Dinan chip for my 95 M3 when I first had it, and could > barely tell the difference. The only thing I noticed was that it > seemed to smooth out one little dip in the power curve somewhat. > Extra power? I doubt I was getting the extra 12 hp they advertise, but > then I was running on Ca fuel. > I agree with the last poster - more fun to spend money on driving school. > Joe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:41:20 -0800 From: "Curtis A. Ingraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> There are a couple of differences between Dinan chips and the others. First, most Dinan chips are smog legal in California. I'm not saying others won't pass a smog check, but you can be confident that Dinan's won't cause a failure. Second, Dinan is a bit more conservative than the others, which may improve reliability but reduce power gain. For some interesting comments on dyno tests, read this: <http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9> Curt Ingraham 72 2002tii, no chip, no OBD-II, no dyno results Oakland, CA Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Anyone have any dyno results from a stock 95 M3 after > adding a Dinan chip? Most of my experience with chips > and stock cars relates to OBII Mustangs, and generally > proves that there is little to no improvement to be > gained by them. I can purchase a Dinan chip on Ebay > for about $60, but I just want to see if their claims > are legit or not. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 18:37:08 -0500 From: "Michael Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > -----Original Message----- > Second, Dinan is a bit more conservative than the others, > which may improve reliability but reduce power gain. > > For some interesting comments on dyno tests, read this: > Curt Ingraham Yep, 0 hp gain is conservative lol. Right up there with the bigger throttle body that adds 0 (zero) hp too. When we compared the Dyno graphs, the dinan actually wasnt as smooth as the stock chip. As discussed here and other places years ago, they create a flat spot then a HP boost as to create a noticeable gain to the driver. But the HP boost only came back up to stock HP levels when comparing the different graphs. Again, YMMV as this was what we saw on the dyno after several runs on 2 M3s. We were trying exhausts, intakes etc, you name it. That was also when I tried an open HFM when conforti said the car would not run, some of you might remember that back and forth. It added 7 or 9hp or something like that but only for demonstration as it would be impossible to drive the car with an open HFM. IMO, the only real world test that will show if you spent your money wisely or helped pay for that fancy building out there in cali is to do timed runs in 3rd or 4th gear on the same day. Mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 19:12:47 -0500 From: Martin Bullen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: UUC Digest <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hmm, so is this a good time to mention that I have a Conforti chip for sale? It recently went the cam/HFM/injector route, so the chip I'd been running previously was also removed, and I no longer have a need for it. It fits pre-EWS 1995 M3 (mine is a 6/94 build). Asking $115, including 1st class postage from 19301. Martin Bullen '95 M3 '97 Z3 2.8 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 14:35:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Ryan Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Bob Sutterfield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "UUC Digest" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Dinan Chips Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For what it is worth I highly second Bob's advice. I bought a Dinan chip on e-bay and it was a pirated chip that was "dead" (confirmed by Will Turner). Well I don't know if it was pirated, but it wasn't what I thought I was getting, and the seller did not respond at all. She is still selling those chips, but under different names. When I spot her on e-bay I inform e-bay. they kick her off, and she comes up with another name. The chip in question could be from her! It was fifty bucks down the tubes. I went with a Turner chip in my 325e and it was the best thing I have done for the car thus far. Ryan- > Paul wrote: >> I can purchase a Dinan chip on Ebay for about $60, >> but I just want to see if their claims are legit or not. > > <http://dinanbmw.com> makes fine chips. So do <http://sharked.com> and > <http://dsylva-tech.ca> and likely others. They perform as advertised. > > Please don't buy chips on eBay. In the best case it will be as > advertised, and you're getting pirated software. That means the chip > developer is not being fairly compensated for their R&D and other > expenses. But you have no way to tell what you're getting, and it could > either (1) not run or (2) grenade your engine. How will you know? Who > will redress your grievances? It's in the best interests of both yourself > and legitimate chip developers, for you to buy directly from the tuner or > their designated channels. > > So yes, Dinan's claims are legitimate, but that eBay chip almost certainly > is not. > -- > Bob Sutterfield > '86 E30 325e bronzitbeige-met > '91 E30 318iS alpinweiß > '83 E21 320i opalgrün-met (RIP, parting out) > '93 T4 EV MV Weekender Arktisches Weiß > BMWCCA #169277 GGC/RMC > > Search the ARCHIVES:http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. > > UUC Motorwerks - BMW Performance Fine-tuning and home of the Ultimate > Short Shifter - accept no substitutes! > 908-874-9092 . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 23:40:03 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <E46> Throttle control Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The possible inputs for fuel injection besides rpm are air flow, intake pressure, throttle position. One needs rpm and one of the other 3 to map fuel and ignition. Air flow or intake pressure work well for mildly tuned engines with moderate valve overlap. Throttle position or intake pressure allow a wide open intake without the restriction of a flow meter. Throttle position ignores reversion and other nastiness of long cam timing. Extra inputs allows better tuning and cross checking of sensor performance. Gary Derian ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 2:08 PM Subject: [UUC] <E46> Throttle control > > Interesting tid-bit in a recent Bimmer article about Dinan's E46, M3 was > that he doesn't use the AFM to gauge fuel but rather uses the throttle > position. There was a reference to this being the norm on race cars. I > guess this would make sense when each cylinder might have a separate > intake. > > -Kevin > ------------------------------ End of [bmwuucdigest] digest(13 messages) **********
