Hi B,

    Speaking only for myself, I do believe that consciousness is causally 
effective, in the sense that if it did not exist then certain other features of 
the world would not exist and that my belief that I (an indicator for inner 
subjective experience of “being in the world”) is not just an illusion. 
    Is this belief justified? Hard to say, but so far I have not found that the 
materialist, physicalist, etc. have successfully given me unassailable reasons 
to believe that by experience of “being in the world” is just some kind of 
nonsense that we lie to ourselves about., pace Dennett, Churchland, etc. 
    I supposed that I might be considered a dualist, but unlike Descartes, I 
argue against the notion of substance as an ontological primitive; instead it 
is proposed that all properties emerge from process ala Bergson and Heraclitus. 
I see mind and body as a specific instantiations of the Stone duality and the 
relation between them is an isomorphism. There is no “causal link” between the 
two, in the Humean sense, needed. For an elaboration of this view see: 
    AFAIK, Bruno adheres to an Idealist version of Platonism. We welcome your 
thoughts and comments.



From: B Soroud 
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 3:25 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: consciousness
furthermore you seem to conceive of a consciousness apart from its 
properties... you are making the erroneous distinction of attribute and 
essence.... you sound much like Descartes.

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 12:24 PM, B Soroud <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:

  "A property of consciousness is"

  it sounds like you are reifying "consciousness"... consciousness is not a 
thing in itself, consciousness does not exist in and of itself... it can only 
be understood within the interdependent and complex framework of sensation, 
bodies, space.... consciousness of something, in and through something.... 
inseparable from the system of space, energy, matter and motion... and 
essential equal to it.... not something seperate and distinct from it that can 
exist independently of it.... 

  consciousness is not something that exists in itself.... consciousness is 
always embodied consciousness of life.... in and through life and the complex 
instrument of form and the mystery of sensation and generation. Consciousness 
is a phenomena of the "body" and its natural system... and is equal to that 
"body" and "body system".

  it sounds like you guys are reifing consciousness.... 

  On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Pzomby <htra...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Jul 1, 4:23 am, selva kumar <selvakr1...@gmail.com> wrote:
    > Is consciousness causally effective ?

    In my opinion, yes, if in simple terms, it is logically correct to
    state:  A property of consciousness is….the capacity and ability of
    individual human consciousness to create intentionally desired
    physical and mental effects.

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