On 02 Jul 2011, at 23:10, B Soroud wrote:

a question I want to pose to the community as well as Bruno is:

Bruno, have you ever seriously studied Nietzsche... he is probably the single most persuasive critic of Platonism that has ever existed.

By platonism I just mean the idea that ideas are primary and matter is generated by the ideas. With comp it can be shown we need only two ideas: addition and multiplication of natural numbers (together with some tiny amount of classical logic). If you get the point you can understand how this is completely testable. Meanwhile it explains tha quantum appearance of nature, the non booleanity of the observable, etc. I mean the facts seems to favor comp and Platonism, and in my opinion, materialism will disappear, and taken as a very deeply "Darwinianly" preprogrammed sort of superstition. The greek and Indian mystics and rationalist might be right, with respect of the coherent mechanist theology.

I read Nietzsche a long time ago, I loved Zarathustra, but find his text on Plato non convincing, but I might have been too young. I tend to think that many philosophers confuse or are unclear about first person truth (Bp & p) and third person communicable truth (Bp). Don't mind too much the modal operator, until you read and grasp (hopefully) the consequences of comp in the "classical machine theology".

You might try to sum up Nietzsche argument against "platonism" so that can we see if it is relevant. If it does not appear as an argulment against comp, then it might point on a flaw in the UD reasoning, which could be something interesting. To be honest I have some doubt because, like many, Nietzsche confuses mechanism and materialism.

Note also that comp contradicts Plato's *politics*, but not Plato's theology, especially as understood by the neoplatonist and neoPythagorean, and then the machines.


Bruno









On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 2:08 PM, B Soroud <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:
it just seems to me that mentality might be a better term to use then consciousness...

this is a notoriously difficult problem....






On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Stephen Paul King <stephe...@charter.net > wrote:
Hi B,

Speaking only for myself, I do believe that consciousness is causally effective, in the sense that if it did not exist then certain other features of the world would not exist and that my belief that I (an indicator for inner subjective experience of “being in the world”) is not just an illusion. Is this belief justified? Hard to say, but so far I have not found that the materialist, physicalist, etc. have successfully given me unassailable reasons to believe that by experience of “being in the world” is just some kind of nonsense that we lie to ourselves about., pace Dennett, Churchland, etc. I supposed that I might be considered a dualist, but unlike Descartes, I argue against the notion of substance as an ontological primitive; instead it is proposed that all properties emerge from process ala Bergson and Heraclitus. I see mind and body as a specific instantiations of the Stone duality and the relation between them is an isomorphism. There is no “causal link” between the two, in the Humean sense, needed. For an elaboration of this view see: http://boole.stanford.edu/pub/ratmech.pdf AFAIK, Bruno adheres to an Idealist version of Platonism. We welcome your thoughts and comments.

Onward!

Stephen

From: B Soroud
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 3:25 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: consciousness
furthermore you seem to conceive of a consciousness apart from its properties... you are making the erroneous distinction of attribute and essence.... you sound much like Descartes.

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 12:24 PM, B Soroud <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:
"A property of consciousness is"

it sounds like you are reifying "consciousness"... consciousness is not a thing in itself, consciousness does not exist in and of itself... it can only be understood within the interdependent and complex framework of sensation, bodies, space.... consciousness of something, in and through something.... inseparable from the system of space, energy, matter and motion... and essential equal to it.... not something seperate and distinct from it that can exist independently of it....

consciousness is not something that exists in itself.... consciousness is always embodied consciousness of life.... in and through life and the complex instrument of form and the mystery of sensation and generation. Consciousness is a phenomena of the "body" and its natural system... and is equal to that "body" and "body system".

it sounds like you guys are reifing consciousness....

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Pzomby <htra...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jul 1, 4:23 am, selva kumar <selvakr1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is consciousness causally effective ?
>

In my opinion, yes, if in simple terms, it is logically correct to
state:  A property of consciousness is….the capacity and ability of
individual human consciousness to create intentionally desired
physical and mental effects.


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