Yes indeed, the notion of consciousness, perception, primary
sensation, or experience without or independent of phenomena... Is
simply ridiculous.... The notion of absolute subjective consciousness
devoid of either phenomena or a body? Simply ridiculous.

There is no consciousness without phenomena and there is no
consciousness without a body.... The trick here is that the notion
"body" may be much more complex and multilayered then we presently
know or think.

On Saturday, July 2, 2011, Constantine Pseudonymous <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I think Descartes HAD to include the soul into his 'human'
unit to escape
&gt;&gt; from Inquisition and that is why he anticipated the
&quot;complexity&quot; in our
&gt;&gt; time's idea - that includes the body and *mind* with its bi
sided influences
&gt;&gt; as a body-soul dualism. (I don't want to start a battle on this).
&gt;
&gt; re-read Descartes.... (no not on wikipedia)
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Consciousness - as the process of responding to relations is universal,
&gt;
&gt; that is a third-person view of consciousness.... an outside view of
&gt; consciousness rotted in a first-person consciousness.... you don't
&gt; have to study phenomenology to understand or describe that first-
&gt; person.... it is brute fact, bare perception, albeit of a
&gt; spiritualized nature and conditioned not only by body but also by
&gt; mind...... hence elusive, mutable, and temporal as-it-is.... it would
&gt; be ridiculous to conceive of post-mortem consciousness.... if you ask
&gt; me.... unless you want to assert that we are like babies being carried
&gt; around by mother nature for some ultimate goal and through some
&gt; unknown  and unaccounted for mechanism.... and you would have to
&gt; advance a world-view of a more spiritualized system of nature
&gt; overlapping it all... this would be a futile endeavor.
&gt;
&gt; if you ask me, there really isn't something called consciousness.....
&gt; there is only imagination..... and whatever else there is besides
&gt; imagination can only be known through imagination and in the distorted
&gt; and abstracted terms of imagination.... what ever else exists besides
&gt; imagination is a x.... back to Kant.
&gt;
&gt;
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