Yes, restated... There us no experience in the absence of phenomenal consciousness, no experience without phenomena.... Unless of course there is a subtler field of luminous forces... And it has become clear that the notion of an experiencer is absolutely ungrounded and unprovable....
On Saturday, July 2, 2011, B Soroud <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes yes... There is no consciousness without phenomena because there > would be nothing to be conscious of. Also, the notion that there is > something (a subject) that is conscious of phenomena is a > presupposition, something merely concluded for conveniences sake.... > But inherently and eternally unprovable. > > On Saturday, July 2, 2011, B Soroud <[email protected]> wrote: > &gt; Yes indeed, the notion of consciousness, perception, primary > &gt; sensation, or experience without or independent of phenomena... Is > &gt; simply ridiculous.... The notion of absolute subjective consciousness > &gt; devoid of either phenomena or a body? Simply ridiculous. > &gt; > &gt; There is no consciousness without phenomena and there is no > &gt; consciousness without a body.... The trick here is that the notion > &gt; &quot;body&quot; may be much more complex and multilayered then > we presently > &gt; know or think. > &gt; > &gt; On Saturday, July 2, 2011, Constantine Pseudonymous > &lt;[email protected]&gt; wrote: > &gt; &amp;gt; > &gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt; I think Descartes HAD to include the soul into his 'human' > &gt; unit to escape > &gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt; from Inquisition and that is why he anticipated the > &gt; &amp;quot;complexity&amp;quot; in our > &gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt; time's idea - that includes the body and *mind* > with its bi > &gt; sided influences > &gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt; as a body-soul dualism. (I don't want to start a > battle on this). > &gt; &amp;gt; > &gt; &amp;gt; re-read Descartes.... (no not on wikipedia) > &gt; &amp;gt; > &gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt; Consciousness - as the process of responding to > relations is universal, > &gt; &amp;gt; > &gt; &amp;gt; that is a third-person view of consciousness.... an > outside view of > &gt; &amp;gt; consciousness rotted in a first-person consciousness.... you don't > &gt; &amp;gt; have to study phenomenology to understand or describe that first- > &gt; &amp;gt; person.... it is brute fact, bare perception, albeit of a > &gt; &amp;gt; spiritualized nature and conditioned not only by body but also by > &gt; &amp;gt; mind...... hence elusive, mutable, and temporal > as-it-is.... it would > &gt; &amp;gt; be ridiculous to conceive of post-mortem > consciousness.... if you ask > &gt; &amp;gt; me.... unless you want to assert that we are like babies > being carried > &gt; &amp;gt; around by mother nature for some ultimate goal and through some > &gt; &amp;gt; unknown and unaccounted for mechanism.... and you would have to > &gt; &amp;gt; advance a world-view of a more spiritualized system of nature > &gt; &amp;gt; overlapping it all... this would be a futile endeavor. > &gt; &amp;gt; > &gt; &amp;gt; if you ask me, there really isn't something called > consciousness..... > &gt; &amp;gt; there is only imagination..... and whatever else there is besides > &gt; &amp;gt; imagination can only be known through imagination and in > the distorted > &gt; &amp;gt; and abstracted terms of imagination.... what ever else > exists besides > &gt; &amp;gt; imagination is a x.... back to Kant. > &gt; &amp;gt; > &gt; &amp;gt; > &gt; &amp;gt; -- > &gt; &amp;gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the > &gt; Google Groups &amp;quot;Everything List&amp;quot; group. > &gt; &amp;gt; To post to this group, send email to > [email protected]. > &gt; &amp;gt; To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > &gt; [email protected]. > &gt; &amp;gt; For more options, visit this group at > &gt; http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > &gt; &amp;gt; > &gt; &amp;gt; > &gt; > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
