Yes, restated... There us no experience in the absence of phenomenal
consciousness, no experience without phenomena.... Unless of course
there is a subtler field of luminous forces... And it has become clear
that the notion of an experiencer is absolutely ungrounded and
unprovable....

On Saturday, July 2, 2011, B Soroud <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:
&gt; Yes yes... There is no consciousness without phenomena  because there
&gt; would be nothing to be conscious of. Also, the notion that there is
&gt; something (a subject) that is conscious of phenomena is a
&gt; presupposition, something merely concluded for conveniences sake....
&gt; But inherently and eternally unprovable.
&gt;
&gt; On Saturday, July 2, 2011, B Soroud &lt;bsor...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
&gt; &amp;gt; Yes indeed, the notion of consciousness, perception, primary
&gt; &amp;gt; sensation, or experience without or independent of phenomena... Is
&gt; &amp;gt; simply ridiculous.... The notion of absolute subjective
consciousness
&gt; &amp;gt; devoid of either phenomena or a body? Simply ridiculous.
&gt; &amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; There is no consciousness without phenomena and there is no
&gt; &amp;gt; consciousness without a body.... The trick here is that the notion
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;quot;body&amp;quot; may be much more complex and
multilayered then
&gt; we presently
&gt; &amp;gt; know or think.
&gt; &amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; On Saturday, July 2, 2011, Constantine Pseudonymous
&gt; &amp;lt;bsor...@gmail.com&amp;gt; wrote:
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; I think Descartes HAD to
include the soul into his 'human'
&gt; &amp;gt; unit to escape
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; from Inquisition and that is
why he anticipated the
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;quot;complexity&amp;amp;quot; in our
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; time's idea - that includes the
body and *mind*
&gt; with its bi
&gt; &amp;gt; sided influences
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; as a body-soul dualism. (I
don't want to start a
&gt; battle on this).
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; re-read Descartes.... (no not on wikipedia)
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt; Consciousness - as the process
of responding to
&gt; relations is universal,
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; that is a third-person view of consciousness.... an
&gt; outside view of
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; consciousness rotted in a first-person
consciousness.... you don't
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; have to study phenomenology to understand
or describe that first-
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; person.... it is brute fact, bare
perception, albeit of a
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; spiritualized nature and conditioned not
only by body but also by
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; mind...... hence elusive, mutable, and temporal
&gt; as-it-is.... it would
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; be ridiculous to conceive of post-mortem
&gt; consciousness.... if you ask
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; me.... unless you want to assert that we
are like babies
&gt; being carried
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; around by mother nature for some ultimate
goal and through some
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; unknown  and unaccounted for mechanism....
and you would have to
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; advance a world-view of a more
spiritualized system of nature
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; overlapping it all... this would be a
futile endeavor.
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; if you ask me, there really isn't something called
&gt; consciousness.....
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; there is only imagination..... and whatever
else there is besides
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; imagination can only be known through
imagination and in
&gt; the distorted
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; and abstracted terms of imagination....
what ever else
&gt; exists besides
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; imagination is a x.... back to Kant.
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; &amp;amp;gt; --
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