This is weird! Two people with the same email address talking to each other or one person talking to himself?!

Stephen

-----Original Message----- From: B Soroud
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 12:44 AM
To: Everything List
Subject: Re: consciousness

Yes indeed, the notion of consciousness, perception, primary
sensation, or experience without or independent of phenomena... Is
simply ridiculous.... The notion of absolute subjective consciousness
devoid of either phenomena or a body? Simply ridiculous.

There is no consciousness without phenomena and there is no
consciousness without a body.... The trick here is that the notion
"body" may be much more complex and multilayered then we presently
know or think.

On Saturday, July 2, 2011, Constantine Pseudonymous <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; I think Descartes HAD to include the soul into his 'human'
unit to escape
&gt;&gt; from Inquisition and that is why he anticipated the
&quot;complexity&quot; in our
&gt;&gt; time's idea - that includes the body and *mind* with its bi
sided influences
&gt;&gt; as a body-soul dualism. (I don't want to start a battle on this).
&gt;
&gt; re-read Descartes.... (no not on wikipedia)
&gt;
&gt;&gt; Consciousness - as the process of responding to relations is universal,
&gt;
&gt; that is a third-person view of consciousness.... an outside view of
&gt; consciousness rotted in a first-person consciousness.... you don't
&gt; have to study phenomenology to understand or describe that first-
&gt; person.... it is brute fact, bare perception, albeit of a
&gt; spiritualized nature and conditioned not only by body but also by
&gt; mind...... hence elusive, mutable, and temporal as-it-is.... it would
&gt; be ridiculous to conceive of post-mortem consciousness.... if you ask
&gt; me.... unless you want to assert that we are like babies being carried
&gt; around by mother nature for some ultimate goal and through some
&gt; unknown  and unaccounted for mechanism.... and you would have to
&gt; advance a world-view of a more spiritualized system of nature
&gt; overlapping it all... this would be a futile endeavor.
&gt;
&gt; if you ask me, there really isn't something called consciousness.....
&gt; there is only imagination..... and whatever else there is besides
&gt; imagination can only be known through imagination and in the distorted
&gt; and abstracted terms of imagination.... what ever else exists besides
&gt; imagination is a x.... back to Kant.
&gt;
&gt;
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