Yes yes... There is no consciousness without phenomena  because there
would be nothing to be conscious of. Also, the notion that there is
something (a subject) that is conscious of phenomena is a
presupposition, something merely concluded for conveniences sake....
But inherently and eternally unprovable.

On Saturday, July 2, 2011, B Soroud <bsor...@gmail.com> wrote:
&gt; Yes indeed, the notion of consciousness, perception, primary
&gt; sensation, or experience without or independent of phenomena... Is
&gt; simply ridiculous.... The notion of absolute subjective consciousness
&gt; devoid of either phenomena or a body? Simply ridiculous.
&gt;
&gt; There is no consciousness without phenomena and there is no
&gt; consciousness without a body.... The trick here is that the notion
&gt; &quot;body&quot; may be much more complex and multilayered then
we presently
&gt; know or think.
&gt;
&gt; On Saturday, July 2, 2011, Constantine Pseudonymous
&lt;bsor...@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
&gt; &amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt; I think Descartes HAD to include the soul into his 'human'
&gt; unit to escape
&gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt; from Inquisition and that is why he anticipated the
&gt; &amp;quot;complexity&amp;quot; in our
&gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt; time's idea - that includes the body and *mind*
with its bi
&gt; sided influences
&gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt; as a body-soul dualism. (I don't want to start a
battle on this).
&gt; &amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; re-read Descartes.... (no not on wikipedia)
&gt; &amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt;&amp;gt; Consciousness - as the process of responding to
relations is universal,
&gt; &amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; that is a third-person view of consciousness.... an
outside view of
&gt; &amp;gt; consciousness rotted in a first-person consciousness.... you don't
&gt; &amp;gt; have to study phenomenology to understand or describe that first-
&gt; &amp;gt; person.... it is brute fact, bare perception, albeit of a
&gt; &amp;gt; spiritualized nature and conditioned not only by body but also by
&gt; &amp;gt; mind...... hence elusive, mutable, and temporal
as-it-is.... it would
&gt; &amp;gt; be ridiculous to conceive of post-mortem
consciousness.... if you ask
&gt; &amp;gt; me.... unless you want to assert that we are like babies
being carried
&gt; &amp;gt; around by mother nature for some ultimate goal and through some
&gt; &amp;gt; unknown  and unaccounted for mechanism.... and you would have to
&gt; &amp;gt; advance a world-view of a more spiritualized system of nature
&gt; &amp;gt; overlapping it all... this would be a futile endeavor.
&gt; &amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; if you ask me, there really isn't something called
consciousness.....
&gt; &amp;gt; there is only imagination..... and whatever else there is besides
&gt; &amp;gt; imagination can only be known through imagination and in
the distorted
&gt; &amp;gt; and abstracted terms of imagination.... what ever else
exists besides
&gt; &amp;gt; imagination is a x.... back to Kant.
&gt; &amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt;
&gt; &amp;gt; --
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&gt; &amp;gt;
&gt;

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