On 15 Jul 2011, at 00:42, Craig Weinberg wrote:
The experience of seeing yellow might be, although its stability
will
needs the global structure of all computations.
If you believe the contrary, you need to speculate on an unknown
physics.
I don't consider it an unknown physics, just a physics that doesn't
disqualify 1p phenomena.
So either you naturalize the quale, which can't work (it is a base on
a category error), or you introduce an identity thesis, which is ad
hoc, and logically incompatible with the comp. assumption.
I don't get why yellow is any less stable
than a number.
Yellow, or any qualia. This is a consequence of the UDA. Are you
willing to imagine that comp *might* be true for studying its
consequence?
Neither computer nor brain can think. Persons think.
And a computer has nothing to do with electronic, or anything
physical.
I get what you're saying, but you could put a drug in your brain
that
affects your thinking, and your thinking can be affected by
chemistry
in your brain that you cannot control with your thoughts. In my
sensorimotive electromagnetism schema, everything physical has an
experiential aspect and vice versa.
That's a form of pantheism, which does not explain what is matter,
nor
mind.
Bruno:
It is more an information pattern which can emulate all
computable pattern evolution. It has been discovered in math. It
exists by virtue of elementary arithmetic. We can implement it in
the
physical reality, but this shows only that physical reality is at
least Turing universal.
CW: It sounds like what you're suggesting is that numbers exist
independently of physical matter, whereas I would say that numbers
insist through the experiences within physical matter.
I find natural to suppose that 17 is prime independently of universes
and human beings. I need it if only to grasp actual theories of
matter
which presuppose them logically. I don't need to know what numbers
are. I need only some agreement on some axioms, like "for all natural
numbers x we have that s(x) is different from 0", etc. Then I can
explain the appearances of matter and mind from the relations
inherited by only addition and multiplication. It is amazing (for non
logician) but if comp is true, we don't need more than elementary
arithmetic. We don't need to postulate a physical universe, nor
consciousness.
The point is that the universe is not made of anything. Neither
physical primitive stuff, nor mathematical stuff. You have to study
the argument to make sense of this. So you have to accept the comp
hypothesis at least for the sake of the argument.
Hmm. If the universe isn't made of anything than your point isn't
made
of anything either. I don't get it.
The game of bridge is not made of quarks and electron. No
mathematical
object is made of something. My point is a reasoning, you have to
cjeck his validity. It is non sense to assume a logical point has to
be made of something. You are confusing software and hardware (and
with comp, the difference is relative, and eventually hardware does
not exist: it is "in the head of the universal machines": that is
enough to derive physics (which becomes a first person plural measure
on possible computational histories).
Also, we are not made of math. math is not a stuffy thing. It is
just
a collection of true fact about immaterial beings.
Have you read any numerology?
Numerology is poetry. Can be very cute, but should not be taken too
much seriously. Are you saying that you disagree with the fact that
math is about immaterial relation between non material beings. Could
you give me an explanation that 34 is less than 36 by using a physics
which does not presuppose implicitly the numbers.
Relatively to universal number, number do many things. we know now
that their doing escape any complete theories. We know now why
numbers
have unbounded behavior complexity. It seems to me that you can
already intuit this when looking at the Mandelbrot set, where a
very
simple mathematical operation defines a montruously complex object.
The complexity is in the eye of the perceiver. Your human visual
sense
is what unites the Mandelbrot set into a fractal pattern. There is
no
independent 'pattern' there unless what you are made of can relate
to
it as a coherent whole rather than a million unrelated pixels as
your
video card sees it, or maybe as a nondescript moving blur as a
gopher
might see it.
OK, but I don't take "human" as primitive. I explain "human" by
(special) universal machine (a purely mathematical notion whose
existence is a consequence of addition and multiplication). That
explain matter, too. Indeed, that makes physics completely derivable
(not derived!) from arithmetic. So we can test the comp. hyp. by
comparing the comp physics, and empiric data.
I cannot be satisfied with this, because it put what I want to
explain
(mind and matter) in the starting premises.
Then I show that comp leads to a precise (and mathematical)
reformulation of the mind-body problem.
Are you more interested in satisfying your premise,
By definition of premise, I am not.
or discovering a
true model of the cosmos?
That makes no sense. We can only propose a theory, and refute it, or
doubt it forever.
You're not saying that Mickey Mouse has mass and velocity though,
right? I don't get it.
It depends on the context. Mickey Mouse is a fiction. as such it
has a
mass, relatively to its fictive world. That world is not complex
enough to attribute meaning to physical attribute, nor mental
one, so
that your question does not make much sense.
How does Mickey Mouse have mass?
Walt Disney attributes him a mass, in the sense that Mickey Mouse
obeys to the laws that it does not fly, and can take objects. he
has a
mass in that fictive world. Like hero have houses and friends. I talk
"in" the fictive worlds.
Whoever is drawing the cartoon can
make the universe he is in be whatever they want.
Not really. The cartoon will not be published if the physical laws
are
too much fictive. That would be too easy for the super hero, and the
story line would get boring. Humans real fictions obeys to Earth real
economy, and to human psychology, etc.
It doesn't have to
have pseudophysical laws like gravity. He can just teleport around a
Mandelbrot set.
But it usually does not. Even if it does, it is a fictionist nonsense
to compare Mickey Mouse and prime numbers. The existence, even
fictive, of Mickey mouse needs a long computational history. The
prime
numbers needs very short history. It is plausible that the actual
(Walt Disney) Mickey Mouse stories even needs the physical world, and
with comp, this one arise from long histories (number computations).
Bruno
On Jul 13, 5:43 am, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
On 13 Jul 2011, at 01:49, Craig Weinberg wrote:
Not sure what you mean in either sentence. A plastic flower
behaves
differently than a biological plant.
Sure. But they have not the same function.
They both decorate a vase. How do we know when we build a chip
that
it's performing the same function that a neuron performs and not
just
what we think it performs, especially considering that neurology
produces qualitative phenomena which cannot be detected at all
outside
of our personal experience. Maybe the brain is a haunted house
built
of prehistoric stones under layers of medieval catacombs and the
chip
is a brand new suburban tract home made to look like a grand old
mansion but it's made of drywall and stucco and ghosts aren't
interested.
Because all known laws of nature, even their approximations,
which
can
still function at some high level, are Turing emulable.
But consciousness isn't observable in nature, outside of our own
interiority. Is yellow Turing emulable?
The experience of seeing yellow might be, although its stability
will
needs the global structure of all computations.
If you believe the contrary, you need to speculate on an unknown
physics.
By computers I mean universal
machine, and this is a mathematical notion.
I don't know, man. I think computers are just gigantic electronic
abacuses. They don't feel anything, but you can arrange their
beads
into patterns which act as a vessel for us to feel, see, know,
think,
etc.
Neither computer nor brain can think. Persons think.
And a computer has nothing to do with electronic, or anything
physical. It is more an information pattern which can emulate all
computable pattern evolution. It has been discovered in math. It
exists by virtue of elementary arithmetic. We can implement it in
the
physical reality, but this shows only that physical reality is at
least Turing universal.
That's a bad note! What is the first 5th % that you don't
understand?
Each sentence is a struggle for me. I could go through each one if
you
want:
"I will first present a non constructive argument showing that the
mechanist
hypothesis in cognitive science gives enough constraints to decide
what a "physical reality"
can possibly consist in."
This is the abstract. The paper explains its meaning.
I read that as "I will first present a theoretical argument
showing
that the hypothesis of consciousness arising from purely
mechanical
interactions in the brain is sufficient to support a physical
reality.
Not to support. To derive. I mean physics is a branch of machine's
theology.
Right away I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm guessing
that
...
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