On Apr 4, 6:16 am, 1Z <peterdjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 3, 5:20 pm, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:
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> > On Apr 3, 5:27 am, 1Z <peterdjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
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> > > > > But the experiment didn't show there was more or less free will.  It 
> > > > > didn't even show
> > > > > there was any free will.  It just showed that inducing a belief in 
> > > > > free will changed
> > > > > performance.
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> > > > Performance in what though? Readiness to execute personal will.
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> > > Nothing in the experiment indicates the will was free in a
> > > philosophical
> > > sense, just the usual scientific sense of volition, ie conscious
> > > control
> > > or control by higher brain centres.
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> > Right. I don't even look at the philosophy of how free is free - any
> > experience of will is unexplainable in a deterministic universe.
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> So you keep saying, but "deterministic" doens't mean "qualia-less".

Qualia doesn't really make sense in a deterministic universe, but
that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that in a deterministic
universe, the idea of will is a non-sequitur. If you can imagine a
deterministic universe where the idea of will is possible, then you
aren't really considering the ramifications of universal determinism.

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> > > > >It might have also shown that belief in alien abductions changed
> > > > > performance.
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> > > > No, they did controls to eliminate that. There may be other beliefs
> > > > that change people's ability to take action as well, but this study
> > > > suggests that this specific idea that we should doubt the existence of
> > > > our own free will has a negative impact on the very thing that is
> > > > being considered.
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> > > > > Either one is perfectly consistent with determinism.
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> > > > No, determinism would not allow a mention of a deterministic function
> > > > of the brain to affect the performance of that function, because then
> > > > it wouldn't be deterministic - it would be open to suggestion by
> > > > others and by ourselves.
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> > > One deterministic process can affect another. Think of dropping a
> > > clock
> > > of a tall building.
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> > That's a straw man of the findings. What the experiment shows would be
> > like dropping a clock off of a tall building and seeing that it falls
> > faster than 32ft/sec/sec if you tell it that it's doomed to fall,
> > slower than 32ft/sec/sec if you tell it that it can control the speed
> > of its fall, and exactly 32ft/sec/sec if you tell it unrelated things.
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> I wasn;t talking about the psychology experiment at all. I meant
> that the falling and the ticking are both deterministic processes,
> and the one is bound to impact the other: "One deterministic process
> can affect another."

But I am talking about the psychology experiment. I am relating it to
you in your own terms so you can see the logic of why the fact that
accepting a belief about free will has measurable consequences related
to free will cannot be explained deterministically.

Craig

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