On Apr 3, 5:04 am, 1Z <[email protected]> wrote: > On Apr 2, 9:39 pm, Craig Weinberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 2, 2:12 pm, 1Z <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Apr 2, 6:02 pm, Craig Weinberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Apr 2, 12:03 pm, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > On 4/2/2012 7:14 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > > > >>> If all movement was involuntary in the > > > > > >>> > > first place then there would be no significant difference > > > > > >>> > between > > > > > >>> > > passively watching yourself move and passively watching > > > > > >>> > yourself not > > > > > >>> > > move > > > > > > >>> > > If we had no free will, our belief about it should have no > > > > > >>> > effect on > > > > > >>> > > the actual ability to execute our wishes though our motor > > > > > >>> > cortex. > > > > > > >> > Non sequitur. > > > > > > Why? If you program a machine to believe that it has free will, how > > > > > > would such a belief have any effect on its behavior? How could it > > > > > > improve its performance in any way? > > > > > > If you program a machine to form explanatory and predictive models of > > > > > the world, then it > > > > > will try to form a model of itself. But it would be difficult and > > > > > extremely wasteful, > > > > > from a survival standpoint, to provide it the introspective data > > > > > necessary to model its > > > > > own physical internal decision processes. Failing to have this > > > > > introspection it may come > > > > > to foolishly believe in something it calls 'free will'. > > > > > Why would there be an experience associated with any decision > > > > processes and how would that experience not be free will? > > > > It *could* not be free will because FW is a capacity, not a feeling, > > > and feeling you have the capacity doens;t mean you actually > > > have. Feelings can be wrong. > > > We may interpret the meanings of our feelings as right or wrong, but > > the experience that we can feel at all cannot be wrong. My argument > > has never been that since we feel that we have free will that must > > reflect an objective truth. My argument is that the existence of the > > feeling of free will alone, whether it is 'true' or not is enough to > > falsify any worldview which is purely deterministic. > > The correct logic would be that it falsifies any worldview, > deterministic or not, that is not able to account for > feelings.
That too, but specifically the feeling of free will is impossible to account for in a purely deterministic universe. "I feel like I am choosing what to write here" cannot be expressed in a d-universe. What is 'I feel'? What is 'choosing'? It is to suggest that you feel you are always drawing circles in a strictly rectilinear universe. Even the suggestion of a circle is impossible, whether or not the circle can be drawn. > > >There is no > > mechanical reason that a machine should have any kind of experience at > > all, let alone an experience that allows it to conceive of something > > like 'control'. The fact that we can conceive of free will in any way > > doesn't make sense in a universe that lacks the possibility of it. > > It makes perfect sense, since we can obviously conceive of > things that aren't possible. We can't conceive of a square circle. We can't conceive of the opposite of fghwiortjy4p5oyj. We can conceive of things that are, to our knowledge not physically possible, but we cannot conceive of anything which is inconceivable - which is what free will would be in a deterministic universe. That is what awareness would be to a mechanistic universe. > But you are shifting around between > determinism, > feelings/qualia and concepts here. How so? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I have an experience of making decisions, then how would believing > > > > that experience is real or an illusion have the effect that we see on > > > > readiness? > > > > huh? readiness? > > > Yes, it's the measurement used in the Libet Task > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet#Volitional_acts_and_readi... > > > The experiment that I'm talking about showed that the Libet Task was > > influenced by exposure to anti-free will > > ideas.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21515737 > > >http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-btvqkJpN24s/TdTMLu2VNpI/AAAAAAAAB4o/215peLP... > > > > > Readiness is measurable. Being influenced by the nonsense idea of > > > > illusory free will impacts performance negatively. If free will were > > > > truly an illusion, there could be no possibility of our belief in it > > > > (belief being something which is only meaningful if it pertains to > > > > contributing to making choices using free will) > > > > So you say. Beliefs can influence deterministic decisions. > > > It's the published study that is saying it. If there were no free > > will, beliefs would be determined so it wouldn't make sense to say > > that they could influence anything. > > It would, but not the same kind of sense. One cogwheel > can determine another...but not freely determine another. But why would it serve any cogwheel to believe that it was freely determining another, and how could such a belief measurably improve its performance in actually determining another? You are focusing on the 'free' part of FW - which is beside the point. It's the 'will' part that violates determinism from the beginning. 'Free' is merely a qualitative extension of will - a description of the extent to which the self experiences or senses the potential for its own autonomy. Just as technology may hold tremendous promise for intelligence, human potential may hold equally tremendous promise toward something approximating 'truly free' will. > > > Belief could only be an > > epiphenomenon. > > So? So how could epiphenomenal beliefs impact performance on the Libet Tasks? > > > > You might > > > want to call that "meaningless", but that is just your juedgment. > > > Your choice to deny free will is an assertion of your power to choose > > freely what to deny and what to accept. > > i don't deny FW. But if I did, I might be doing so deterministically. Why would you be determined to have an opinion one way or another about something that would be inconceivable? Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
