On 16 May 2012, at 17:37, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On May 16, 10:41 am, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:On 15 May 2012, at 19:44, Craig Weinberg wrote:On May 15, 1:03 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:But a deterministic world, if rich enough to add and multiply,andthus to contain universal internal observers, leads already to indeterminist first person realities (even without comp, although it is simpler to use comp to justify this).If a wave washes one pile of sand onto another, thereby 'adding' them together, why does that generate universal internal observers?Adding is not enough. You need multiplication, and iteration.Then universal digital creatures appear, by logical consequences, and, as always, reflect themselves and all universal creatures, digital, and non digital, which leads them to harder and harder problems and questions.Even if that's true, from where do they appear? To say they appearisto admit that they are not themselves contained within addition or multiplication.They are. Anything Turing emulable appears, and reappears in arithmetic, related to bigger and bigger natural numbers.The appearance is contingent though, upon something being able to recognize the pattern which is appearing to them.

`That's correct. It is contingent of the universal number, and the`

`universal numbers making the first one more relatively probable. But`

`all that exist in arithmetic.`

That pattern recognition is not automatically guaranteed by any arithmetic logic.

In your non-comp theory.

We need a physical machine that remembers that it can remember,

That's "Bp -> BBp". Universal machine are like that.

and can experience that memory as an event. It needs to know what kinds of strings of remembered digits constitute a meaningful pattern, or that there could even be such a thing as a pattern. To say that patterns appear and reappear in arithmetic takes the appearance of pattern itself for granted, then usurps the primacy of the sense experience which provides it.

`Not really, for it appears and reappears only in the mind of universal`

`numbers. It makes sense for them, and indeed they will be astonished`

`that apparent material can lead to that sense. But although locally`

`true, this is globally wrong. Sense is necessarily a first person`

`notion, and relies on the abstract but real configuration involving`

`infinities of arithmetical relations.`

To say they are creatures implies a creation.Why not. You could say that they are created by the addition and multiplication laws. You need only to bet that 1+1=2 and alike does not depend on us.Because there's no mathematical logic to how or why that creation could occur.

But there is.

If we posit a universe of arithmetic realism, how can we accept that it falls off a cliff when it comes to the arithmetic of it's own origins? What makes 1+1=2? Sense.

`Truth. Why do you want someone to assess the truth for something being`

`true. That is anthropomorphic. Th greek get well that point, and`

`originate the whole scientific enterprise from there, as in the`

`conclusion of this video:`

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69F7GhASOdM

`If not, it is the whole idea of a reality which makes no more sense,`

`and we get solipsist or anthropomorphic.`

Not primitive sense either, but high order cognitive abstraction. There is no '1' or '2' literally, they are ideas about our common sense - what we have in common with everything. Numbers are literally 'figures', symbols which can be applied mentally to represent many things,

No. That's number description. Not numbers.

and to deploy orderly control of some physical systems - but not everything can be reduced to or controlled by numbers.

`But that's what number can discover by themselves. Once you are at the`

`treshold of numbers, the complexity of the relations (even just`

`between numbers) get higher than what you can describe with numbers.`

`the numbers already know that, with reasonable account of what is`

`knowledge.`

What necessary logic turns a nuclear chain reaction (addition and multiplication) into a nursery for problem solving sentience?The same logic making tiny system Turing universal. Usually somesmallpart of classical logic is enough.Why would any kind of universality or logic entail the automatic development of sentience? What is logical about sentience?

`The illogicality of sentience. From the point of view of numbers, when`

`they look at themselves, they discover, for logical reason, that there`

`is something non logical about them. Then the comp act of faith`

`appears to be the simplest way to restore logic, except for that act`

`of faith and the belief in addition and multiplication.`

Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.