On 9/25/2012 8:40 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
Hi Stephen P. King

No, the subject has to perceive the object,
not be the object. He must be apart from the
object of perception.  Perception, intelligence,
consciousness all require such an external

Do we perceive the object itself or merely our 1p representation of the object?

Think of a chess game.  The players are
not the rooks and pawns, they study the
game from outside the game.

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen

----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Stephen P. King
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-24, 10:50:33
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

On 9/24/2012 9:59 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
By self I mean conscious self. Computers
are not conscious because codes can describe,
but they can't perceive. Perception requires a
live viewer or self.

I had no racial intentions in mind when I spoke
of not having a subject, and I find it difficult to
see how you could imagine that. And not having
a subject would mean you are dead.
HI Roger,

      We can faithfully capture the idea of perception by considering a
process of actively generating and updating an internal model of the
entity and its interactions with its environment. The "subject" or self"
is, in this reasoning, identified with the internal model. We can limit
the infinite regress problem
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument) that might be
considered as an argument against this idea by the following means:
      1) Each model and any sub-model are (up to some limit) isomorphic
(see Kleene's theorems), so one only needs resources to code the initial
model and any bits that represent the differences between it and its
sub-models. The "self" is the model plus the updating mechanism.




You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
For more options, visit this group at 

Reply via email to