Hi Stephen P. King  

No, the subject has to perceive the object, 
not be the object. He must be apart from the  
object of perception.  Perception, intelligence,
consciousness all require such an external
observer/chooser.

Think of a chess game.  The players are
not the rooks and pawns, they study the
game from outside the game.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
9/25/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Stephen P. King  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-24, 10:50:33 
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment 


On 9/24/2012 9:59 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 
> By self I mean conscious self. Computers 
> are not conscious because codes can describe, 
> but they can't perceive. Perception requires a 
> live viewer or self. 
> 
> I had no racial intentions in mind when I spoke 
> of not having a subject, and I find it difficult to 
> see how you could imagine that. And not having 
> a subject would mean you are dead. 
HI Roger, 


     We can faithfully capture the idea of perception by considering a  
process of actively generating and updating an internal model of the  
entity and its interactions with its environment. The "subject" or self"  
is, in this reasoning, identified with the internal model. We can limit  
the infinite regress problem  
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument) that might be  
considered as an argument against this idea by the following means: 
     1) Each model and any sub-model are (up to some limit) isomorphic  
(see Kleene's theorems), so one only needs resources to code the initial  
model and any bits that represent the differences between it and its  
sub-models. The "self" is the model plus the updating mechanism. 

--  
Onward! 

Stephen 

http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html 


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