Then the measure addict people believe in a lot of things that are not
measurable: they believe in an external reality . They believe in a certain
pitagoric cult to measurement, that is not measurable. They believe that
their perception is transparent, and that his mind play no role, because it
translates a complete objective and accurate view of reality.  Therefore
the mind and his relation with matter is not worth to study. They believe
in things not measurable, like countries, specially their own (which they
would laugh If i say that their country is  a bunch of atoms. Apparently
their reductionism is selective).

They believe in their loved ones that are dead (they do not exist according
with their point of view, but they sometimes talk with them, dedicate books
to them and act like if they are observing them. They bet, trust and
believe in persons, despite the fact that they are nor measurable.. They
believe in their leaders. They believe in some scientist that are liars.
but they believe them without making measures and experiments for
themselves. It seems tha almost all that they believe derives from a sense
of authority, like any other persom.

And they do it well on believing in these nor measurable things, because if
they doint believe, they would be paralized and will kill someone or kill
themselves.

2012/10/20 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>

> Hi Alberto G. Corona
>
> I have no problem with that, the problem I have
> is that I believe that nonphysical things (things,
> like Descartes' "mind", not extended in space)
> like spirit, truly exist.  But to materialists,
> that's nonsense, because being inextended it
> can't be measured and so doesn't exist.
> And life is just a unique form of matter,
> so can be created.  And what is man but a
> bunch of atoms ?
>
>
>
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 10/20/2012
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>
>
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Alberto G. Corona
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2012-10-20, 08:48:39
> Subject: Re: Re: A test for solipsism
>
>
> Roger
> Different Qualia are a result fo different phisical effect in the senses.
> So a machine does not need to have qualia to distinguish between phisical
> effectds. It only need sensors that distinguish between them.
>
>
> A sensor can detect a red light and the attached computer can stop a car.
> With no problems.?
>
>
> http://www.gizmag.com/mercedes-benz-smart-stop-system/13122/
>
>
>
> 2012/10/20 Roger Clough
>
> Hi Bruno Marchal
>
> In that definition of a p-zombie below, it says that
> a p-zombie cannot experience qualia, and qualia
> are what the senses tell you. The mind then transforms
> what is sensed into a sensation. The sense of red
> is what the body gives you, the sensation of red
> is what the mind transforms that into. Our mind
> also can recall past sensations of red to compare
> it with and give it a name "red", which a real
> person can identify as eg a red traffic light
> and stop. A zombie would not stop (I am not allowing
> the fact that red and green lights are in different
> positions).
> That would be a test of zombieness.
> ?
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 10/20/2012
>
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Bruno Marchal
> Receiver: everything-list
>
> Time: 2012-10-19, 03:47:51
> Subject: Re: A test for solipsism
>
> On 17 Oct 2012, at 19:12, Roger Clough wrote:
> > Hi Bruno Marchal
> >
> > Sorry, I lost the thread on the doctor, and don't know what Craig
> > believes about the p-zombie.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
> >
> > "A philosophical zombie or p-zombie in the philosophy of mind and
> > perception is a hypothetical being
> > that is indistinguishable from a normal human being except in that
> > it lacks conscious experience, qualia, or sentience.[1] When a
> > zombie is poked with a sharp object, for example, it does not feel
> > any pain though it behaves
> > exactly as if it does feel pain (it may say "ouch" and recoil from
> > the stimulus, or tell us that it is in intense pain)."
> >
> > My guess is that this is the solipsism issue, to which I would say
> > that if it has no mind, it cannot converse with you,
> > which would be a test for solipsism,-- which I just now found in
> > typing the first part of this sentence.
> Solipsism makes everyone zombie except you.
> But in some context some people might conceive that zombie exists,
> without making everyone zombie. Craig believes that computers, if they
> might behave like conscious individuals would be a zombie, but he is
> no solipsist.
> There is no test for solipsism, nor for zombieness. BY definition,
> almost. A zombie behaves exactly like a human being. There is no 3p
> features that you could use at all to make a direct test. Now a theory
> which admits zombie, can have other features which might be testable,
> and so some indirect test are logically conceivable, relatively to
> some theory.
> Bruno
> ?
> ?
> ?
> >
> >
> > Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> > 10/17/2012
> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
> >
> >
> > ----- Receiving the following content -----
> > From: Bruno Marchal
> > Receiver: everything-list
> > Time: 2012-10-17, 08:57:36
> > Subject: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of
> > overlycomplexcomputations ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 16 Oct 2012, at 15:33, Stephen P. King wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 10/16/2012 9:20 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
> >
> > Hi Stephen P. King
> >
> > Thanks. My mistake was to say that P's position is that
> > consciousness, arises at (or above ?)
> > the level of noncomputability. He just seems to
> > say that intuiton does. But that just seems
> > to be a conjecture of his.
> >
> >
> > ugh, rclo...@verizon.net
> > 10/16/2012
> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
> >
> >
> > Hi Roger,
> >
> > IMHO, computability can only capture at most a "simulation" of the
> > content of consciousness, but we can deduce a lot from that ...
> >
> >
> >
> > So you do say "no" to the doctor? And you do follow Craig on the
> > existence of p-zombie?
> >
> >
> > Bruno
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
> >
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> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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