On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > 2013/11/27 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >> >> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > All of this demonstrate how little we know about what we are. >> >> Yes, I think most societies underestimate how much they don't know. >> It's easy to spot this looking back in History, but it's more rare to >> be able to see the pattern and realise that this is probably still the >> case. Future generations will probably find most of our current >> beliefs naive, the same way that we find ancient believes naive. >> >> > I have some interesting hints about all of this I think. And I have to >> > formally demonstrate that, and sorry for the pedantry but, as I said >> > frequently, according with evolutionary game theory, the collective >> > sacrifices are needed for the coordination of societies that are not >> > formed >> > by clones, like the human society. >> >> I have little doubt about this. There is the empirical evidence from >> social insects, for example. Female ants are super-sisters (closer >> than us to being clones), meaning that they share more DNA than mammal >> sisters. This, in turn, translates into more altruistic behaviours and >> an almost clockwork-like society. >> >> I think an important point here is that we are wired to be >> sufficiently altruistic for a tribal society. The agricultural >> revolution was only 12K years ago, which is very recently at an >> evolutionary time scale. The level of altruism that we are evolved for >> doesn't feel like a sacrifice. Most people won't feel that sharing >> food with friends is a sacrifice. In fact, it is even a pleasure. >> >> But then, with the agricultural revolution, social complexity started >> increasing much faster than biological evolution can keep up with. >> This is why almost nobody finds pleasure in paying taxes. It's a too >> abstract form of altruism. >> >> > Such sacrifices can be in the course of >> > informal (celebrations) or formally recognized as sacrifices in >> > religious >> > rites. >> > >> > That is in our instincts and we naturally arrange our behavior to do so. >> > It >> > is very interesting what happens we invite friends to a celebration. We >> > sacrifice our time and money and dedicate out attention to the others >> > mutually. Even the mutual perception of happiness being together assures >> > everyone that the others prefer to be with us and invest their effort >> > with >> > us. >> > >> > Probably, the less formal the sacrifices are, the less efficient are, >> > and >> > the sacrifice higher. I suspect that in really bad times and when the >> > traditional rites have been forgotten, and people does not trust the >> > formal >> > institutions, the only alternative are human sacrifices. That happens in >> > marginal groups of modern societies. We have to investigate these >> > matters >> > urgently. >> >> This is an interesting point. Formality allows us to make sacrifices >> that are recognised by others, thus creating some safety for >> ourselves. You make a sacrifice, but if you find yourself in need >> later, the formal rituals created a context where people feel the need >> to reciprocate. I think churches play this role very well. Mormons, >> for example, have a very formal society. In certain mormon areas, >> everyone feels responsible for all the kids, people will help new >> families and so on. This is interestingly similar to tribal behaviours >> pre-agriculture. >> >> At our current gigantic scales this breaks. You hear the complain all >> the time: "I pay my taxes, who can they do this to me?". But there's >> no one listening. Not because most people are evil, but just because >> there is literally no one listening. Of course the Internet is >> creating non-geographical locality (or post-geographical, as William >> Gibson likes to put it). I bet most people in this list see it like a >> tribe to some degree. There's a lot of conflict, but we would probably >> be genuinely sad if one of us died. That stuff is wired in us from >> pre-agriculture. > > > Paying taxes I do not find to fit with an intuitive notion of sacrifice, I > mean it is not experienced as sacrifice because the money is not a natural > (i.e. ancestral) possession towards we have a natural way to evaluate the > gain of loss of it.
Fair enough. > Moreover it can not be made evident to the other people > in a public event, that is the essence of the rite or celebration, in which > mutual trust is created. > > Probably the sacrifice of a marathon in a public event is much more > fulfilling for this purpose than money. When, In a celebration, I spend > money to make my friends happy, it is my time and my effort what constitutes > my sacrifice, not the money. Women usually do not appreciate the amount of > money spent by the husband in a gift, but the overall continuous personal > effort invested on her. The sons of parents that do not spend time with them > have the same psychological problems, no matter the amount of money the > parent spend in material goods for them or either if they are rich or poor. > > Probably this is because the evaluation of sacrifice of the other is > hardwired to consider some kind of goods that actually were present in the > ancestral environment: personal effort, and personal pain mainly. or some > goods that were a product of personal effort: the blood of hunted animals > or other basic posessions like the own blood, or some symbols that represent > them, wit decreasing levels of realism. For example an animal bough for a > certain amoun of money(but not the same amount of money as such) > > To understand the mechanism by which sacrifices work for social coordination > is the key: By making a clear and evident personal sacrifice in a public > celebration is a sign of proclamation of commitment to the comunity because, > if the individual does not reciprocate because it is too much burden, it has > to change to other comunity and he have to perform a second sacrifice for > the other comunity. So he will have no incentives to do defect. > > It is like the insurance companies (or by the way, the state run taxation > and services system): There is an initial payment, a periodic payment and a > payment if you want to leave. You can not receive the services of your > insurance company immediately. You either have to pay more at the beginning > or you have to pay a number of times before using the services. If you > leave, depending on the services you demanded, you have to pay a penalty. > Religious celebrations and sacrifices are the same, but at the instinctive > (emotional) level. It is regulated by unconscious coordination mechanisms, > while the insurance companies uses the same game theoretical logic (I can > bet that insurance companies use game theory a lot), but it is perfectly > conscious and rational. not instinctive. I have no emotional attachment to > the other clients of my insurance company. > > > A country is something in the middle. But the emotional attachment for your > country is not a consequence of the money you pay in taxes for the education > system. It is because your cellebrations and memorials and the history > books, you read and all the things that you find easy to do with the people > of your country and not so well with other people. > > The dynamic of religion and sacrifice becomes clear when compared with an > insurance company: when trust grows and the people don´t lie to the > insurance company the payments become lesser and lesser. When the distrust > increase, and the demand of payment grows by liars or wrongdoers, the > payments grows until the payment is comparable to the service. That is, if > the clients have a false accident of total loss every year,, the company > will demand the price of a car every year. if you kill people and expect > that the group will help you with their lifes from the probable vengeance, > it is expected that your group demand for you to kill one of your children > in public or to kill two enemies or to take prisioners for killing them in > the altar or some equaly horrendous. Otherwise the game theoretical > equilibrium will not work to stabilize the group cooperation. That`s what > happens in ancient and modern tribes. You make a number of interesting points and I don't really disagree with anything. Telmo. >> >> >> Telmo. >> >> > 2013/11/25 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Alberto G. Corona >> >> <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > 2013/11/24 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 24 Nov 2013, at 10:06, LizR wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> To be exact it's the belief that no gods exist, i.e. that "theism" >> >> >> is >> >> >> wrong. But otherwise it does seem to echo Aristotle and Plato, at >> >> >> least >> >> >> as >> >> >> far as I understand them. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife, which is close to not >> >> >> making >> >> >> much sense to me (even without comp). This is well illustrated by >> >> >> the >> >> >> french >> >> >> philosophers like La Mettrie and Sade, defending the right to do >> >> >> what >> >> >> you >> >> >> want in your life (including torturing children and women), as you >> >> >> have >> >> >> only >> >> >> one life to profit on. It is part of the origin of the political >> >> >> materialism, implemented in both communism and capitalism, and >> >> >> indeed >> >> >> both >> >> >> are aggressive with any form of spiritualism, and confuse a rich >> >> >> life >> >> >> with a >> >> >> life of rich. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Both branches of nihilistic economicism , yes >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The big conceptual difference between Aristotle and Plato is that in >> >> >> Aristotle there is a belief in a primitive material universe, where >> >> >> for >> >> >> Plato, the material universe is a shadow (an emanation, a border, a >> >> >> reflection, a projection,...) of something else (the one, God, the >> >> >> universal >> >> >> dream, etc.). >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Interesting declaration of Gnosticism. >> >> > But that platonic idea of the world does is not match very well with >> >> > what >> >> > plato says in the Timaeus. Allthough the gnosticists have drawn a lot >> >> > from >> >> > Plato. >> >> > >> >> > In the other way, the conception of Aristotle was the traditional >> >> > idea >> >> > of >> >> > the greeks. the greek goods, by the way, where intramundane, not >> >> > beyond-material, that is sobrenatural, authough "almost" inmortals. >> >> > So >> >> > you >> >> > can accuse the ancient greeks of being aristotelians. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It is the opposition between naturalism (materialism, physicalism), >> >> >> and >> >> >> the other conceptions of reality (which can still be rational, like >> >> >> with the >> >> >> antic greeks and Indians). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Atheists and Christians are alike. They have the same conception of >> >> >> the >> >> >> creator (the first to deny it, the second to believe in it), and the >> >> >> same >> >> >> conception of the creation (a material universe). >> >> >> >> >> >> The real "religious" debate is about the primitive or not existence >> >> >> of >> >> >> the >> >> >> physical reality. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Not only that. Between primitive and not existence, theere are a lot >> >> > of >> >> > possiblities >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Should we search, or not, for a reason behind the physical reality? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > We have no option once our personal survival problems are solved and >> >> > we >> >> > have >> >> > to plan beyond tomorrow. >> >> > We have teleological minds that need to discover a course of history >> >> > to >> >> > follow. Otherwise, probably like in any social organism, we will be >> >> > victims >> >> > of out own mechanism of sanity-checking and the social apoptosis will >> >> > prescribe an useful suicide to our disoriented body, in order to >> >> > avoid >> >> > being >> >> > a burden for the other gene-vehicles of the society. >> >> > >> >> > That´s why many disoriented people, specially young ones, risk their >> >> > lifes >> >> > in extreme sports (or terrorism): it is the only way to avoid asking >> >> > oneself >> >> > for some meaning for their lifes. >> >> >> >> Yes, and I also suspect that this is why pop culture is so loud. >> >> People of all ages feel this need to be distracted from the abyss. Not >> >> that I find anything wrong in pop culture per se, but making a big >> >> deal about some celebrity wearing a skimpy outfit is one of the many >> >> ways to distract ourselves from the nausea that can come when one >> >> contemplates naked reality. Another impression I have is that Europe >> >> is mostly a post-nausea culture, while the US is a pre-nausea one. >> >> This makes communication hard, despite the fact that we have so much >> >> in common at a more superficial level. >> >> >> >> > The spectacle of people running to the >> >> > extenuation in massive marathons with "solidary" purposes as a modern >> >> > form >> >> > of primitive sacrifice is one of the most bizarre but enlightening >> >> > things in >> >> > this "rationalist" modern world. >> >> >> >> I agree, it's funny. Obviously people could just donate the money >> >> directly to charity, so there is some fundamental need for the >> >> puritanical public display of sacrifice. It also promotes jogging and >> >> healthy living, which is a replacement for conventional religious >> >> notions of purity. It is acceptable under the new dogmas because it is >> >> science-based, but the underlaying religious needs are still the same. >> >> >> >> Then you have some funny moments, like when science finds out that >> >> stretching before exercise is actually counter-productive. It's a >> >> bummer, because stretching before a jog is such a wonderful display of >> >> piety, so similar to genuflexion before some altar. I wonder what >> >> they'll replace it with. >> >> >> >> Telmo. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 24 November 2013 04:56, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On 23 Nov 2013, at 14:05, Roger Clough wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Atheism is wish fulfillment. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Yes. Notably. I agree. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> It is the fuzzy belief that the Christian God does not exist, >> >> >>> together >> >> >>> with the belief in the Christian "Matter". >> >> >>> >> >> >>> The debate between Atheists and Christians hides the deeper debate >> >> >>> between Aristotle and Plato. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Bruno >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> >>> Groups >> >> >>> "Everything List" group. >> >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> >>> send >> >> >>> an >> >> >>> email to [email protected]. >> >> >>> To post to this group, send email to >> >> >>> [email protected]. >> >> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> >> Groups >> >> >> "Everything List" group. >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> >> send >> >> >> an >> >> >> email to [email protected]. >> >> >> To post to this group, send email to >> >> >> [email protected]. >> >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> >> Groups >> >> >> "Everything List" group. >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> >> send >> >> >> an >> >> >> email to [email protected]. >> >> >> To post to this group, send email to >> >> >> [email protected]. >> >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Alberto. >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> > Groups >> >> > "Everything List" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> > send >> >> > an >> >> > email to [email protected]. >> >> > To post to this group, send email to >> >> > [email protected]. >> >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "Everything List" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> >> an >> >> email to [email protected]. >> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Alberto. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "Everything List" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> > an >> > email to [email protected]. >> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > -- > Alberto. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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