All of this demonstrate how little we know about what we are.

I have some interesting hints about all of this I think. And I have to
formally demonstrate that, and sorry for the pedantry but, as I said
frequently, according with evolutionary game theory, the collective
sacrifices are needed for the coordination of societies that are not formed
by clones, like the human society. Such sacrifices can be in the course of
informal (celebrations)  or formally recognized as sacrifices in religious
rites.

That is in our instincts and we naturally arrange our behavior to do so. It
is very interesting what happens we invite friends to a celebration. We
sacrifice our time and money and dedicate out attention to the others
mutually. Even the mutual perception of happiness being together assures
everyone that the others prefer to be with us and invest their effort with
us.

Probably, the less formal the sacrifices are, the less efficient are, and
the sacrifice higher. I suspect that in really bad times and when the
traditional rites have been forgotten, and people does not trust the formal
institutions, the only alternative are human sacrifices. That happens in
marginal groups of modern societies. We have to investigate these matters
urgently.


2013/11/25 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>

> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > 2013/11/24 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 24 Nov 2013, at 10:06, LizR wrote:
> >>
> >> To be exact it's the belief that no gods exist, i.e. that "theism" is
> >> wrong. But otherwise it does seem to echo Aristotle and Plato, at least
> as
> >> far as I understand them.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife, which is close to not making
> >> much sense to me (even without comp). This is well illustrated by the
> french
> >> philosophers like La Mettrie and Sade, defending the right to do what
> you
> >> want in your life (including torturing children and women), as you have
> only
> >> one life to profit on. It is part of the origin of the political
> >> materialism, implemented in both communism and capitalism, and indeed
> both
> >> are aggressive with any form of spiritualism, and confuse a rich life
> with a
> >> life of rich.
> >
> >
> > Both branches of nihilistic economicism , yes
> >>
> >>
> >> The big conceptual difference between Aristotle and Plato is that in
> >> Aristotle there is a belief in a primitive material universe, where for
> >> Plato, the material universe is a shadow (an emanation, a border, a
> >> reflection, a projection,...) of something else (the one, God, the
> universal
> >> dream, etc.).
> >
> >
> > Interesting declaration of Gnosticism.
> > But that platonic idea of the world does is not match very well with what
> > plato says in the Timaeus. Allthough the gnosticists have drawn a lot
> from
> > Plato.
> >
> > In the other way, the conception of Aristotle was the traditional idea of
> > the greeks. the greek goods, by the way, where intramundane, not
> > beyond-material, that is sobrenatural, authough "almost" inmortals. So
> you
> > can accuse the ancient greeks of being aristotelians.
> >>
> >>
> >> It is the opposition between naturalism (materialism, physicalism), and
> >> the other conceptions of reality (which can still be rational, like
> with the
> >> antic greeks and Indians).
> >>
> >>
> >> Atheists and Christians are alike. They have the same conception of the
> >> creator (the first to deny it, the second to believe in it), and the
> same
> >> conception of the creation (a material universe).
> >>
> >> The real "religious" debate is about the primitive or not existence of
> the
> >> physical reality.
> >
> >
> > Not only that. Between primitive and not existence, theere are a lot of
> > possiblities
> >
> >>
> >> Should we search, or not, for a reason behind the physical reality?
> >
> >
> > We have no option once our personal survival problems are solved and we
> have
> > to plan beyond tomorrow.
> > We have teleological minds that need to discover a course of history to
> > follow. Otherwise, probably like in any social organism, we will be
> victims
> > of out own mechanism of sanity-checking and the social apoptosis will
> > prescribe an useful suicide to our disoriented body, in order to avoid
> being
> > a burden for the other gene-vehicles of the society.
> >
> > That´s why many disoriented people, specially young ones, risk their
> lifes
> > in extreme sports (or terrorism): it is the only way to avoid asking
> oneself
> > for some meaning for their lifes.
>
> Yes, and I also suspect that this is why pop culture is so loud.
> People of all ages feel this need to be distracted from the abyss. Not
> that I find anything wrong in pop culture per se, but making a big
> deal about some celebrity wearing a skimpy outfit is one of the many
> ways to distract ourselves from the nausea that can come when one
> contemplates naked reality. Another impression I have is that Europe
> is mostly a post-nausea culture, while the US is a pre-nausea one.
> This makes communication hard, despite the fact that we have so much
> in common at a more superficial level.
>
> > The spectacle of people running to the
> > extenuation in massive marathons with "solidary" purposes as a modern
> form
> > of primitive sacrifice is one of the most bizarre but enlightening
> things in
> > this "rationalist" modern world.
>
> I agree, it's funny. Obviously people could just donate the money
> directly to charity, so there is some fundamental need for the
> puritanical public display of sacrifice. It also promotes jogging and
> healthy living, which is a replacement for conventional religious
> notions of purity. It is acceptable under the new dogmas because it is
> science-based, but the underlaying religious needs are still the same.
>
> Then you have some funny moments, like when science finds out that
> stretching before exercise is actually counter-productive. It's a
> bummer, because stretching before a jog is such a wonderful display of
> piety, so similar to genuflexion before some altar. I wonder what
> they'll replace it with.
>
> Telmo.
>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bruno
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 24 November 2013 04:56, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 23 Nov 2013, at 14:05, Roger Clough wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Atheism is wish fulfillment.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Yes. Notably. I agree.
> >>>
> >>> It is the fuzzy belief that the Christian God does not exist, together
> >>> with the belief in the Christian "Matter".
> >>>
> >>> The debate between Atheists and Christians hides the deeper debate
> >>> between Aristotle and Plato.
> >>>
> >>> Bruno
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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