2013/11/24 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>

>
> On 24 Nov 2013, at 10:06, LizR wrote:
>
> To be exact it's the belief that no gods exist, i.e. that "theism" is
> wrong. But otherwise it does seem to echo Aristotle and Plato, at least as
> far as I understand them.
>
>
>
> Atheism is also the belief in NO afterlife, which is close to not making
> much sense to me (even without comp). This is well illustrated by the
> french philosophers like La Mettrie and Sade, defending the right to do
> what you want in your life (including torturing children and women), as you
> have only one life to profit on. It is part of the origin of the political
> materialism, implemented in both communism and capitalism, and indeed both
> are aggressive with any form of spiritualism, and confuse a rich life with
> a life of rich.
>

Both branches of nihilistic economicism , yes

>
> The big conceptual difference between Aristotle and Plato is that in
> Aristotle there is a belief in a primitive material universe, where for
> Plato, the material universe is a shadow (an emanation, a border, a
> reflection, a projection,...) of something else (the one, God, the
> universal dream, etc.).
>

Interesting declaration of Gnosticism.
But that platonic idea of the world does is not match very well with what
plato says in the Timaeus. Allthough the gnosticists have drawn a lot from
Plato.

In the other way, the conception of Aristotle was the traditional idea of
the greeks. the greek goods, by the way, where intramundane, not
beyond-material, that is sobrenatural, authough "almost" inmortals. So you
can accuse the ancient greeks of being aristotelians.

>
> It is the opposition between naturalism (materialism, physicalism), and
> the other conceptions of reality (which can still be rational, like with
> the antic greeks and Indians).
>

> Atheists and Christians are alike. They have the same conception of the
> creator (the first to deny it, the second to believe in it), and the same
> conception of the creation (a material universe).
>
> The real "religious" debate is about the primitive or not existence of the
> physical reality.
>

Not only that. Between primitive and not existence, theere are a lot of
possiblities


> Should we search, or not, for a reason behind the physical reality?
>

We have no option once our personal survival problems are solved and we
have to plan beyond tomorrow.
We have teleological minds that need to discover a course of history to
follow. Otherwise, probably like in any social organism, we will be victims
of out own mechanism of sanity-checking and the social apoptosis will
prescribe an useful suicide to our disoriented body, in order to avoid
being a burden for the other gene-vehicles of the society.

That´s why many disoriented people, specially young ones, risk their lifes
in extreme sports (or terrorism): it is the only way to avoid asking
oneself for some meaning for their lifes.  The spectacle of people running
to the extenuation in massive marathons with "solidary" purposes as a
modern form of primitive sacrifice is one of the most bizarre but
enlightening things in this "rationalist" modern world.

>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
> On 24 November 2013 04:56, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 23 Nov 2013, at 14:05, Roger Clough wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Atheism is wish fulfillment.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes. Notably. I agree.
>>
>> It is the fuzzy belief that the Christian God does not exist, together
>> with the belief in the Christian "Matter".
>>
>> The debate between Atheists and Christians hides the deeper debate
>> between Aristotle and Plato.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
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-- 
Alberto.

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