Terren, Where have you been? I did answer this question. You create a biological robot by putting together the exact parts that constitute a human being down to the last cell and molecule. The result will be a conscious human being unless you believe in some nonsensical concept of soul or ghost in the machine that has to be added in addition.
As to other varieties of robots don't you understand you need to define what you mean by consciousness before you can answer the question? Every robot is conscious if you define the results of its computations as consciousness, and not otherwise... And what arrogance to assume that because I didn't answer some question "I don't have an answer", especially since I did answer and you apparently didn't read the answer. Neither case gives me much confidence in your ability to think logically... Edgar On Monday, January 13, 2014 9:15:37 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > > Edgar, > > The Matrix style simulation is a very special case and it's description in > which a biological being has its sensory data shunted by a virtual > interface is beside the point. > > Probably a better example is the "uploading" scenario, where the doctor > doesn't restore your mind in a physical body, but scans your brain/body > into a simulation. at which point you wake up in the simulation. If the > simulation is rich enough you might not know the difference. > > I noticed you did not answer my question, which tells me you do not have > an answer. > > T > > The point > On Jan 13, 2014 7:10 PM, "Edgar L. Owen" <edga...@att.net <javascript:>> > wrote: > >> Terren, >> >> No, it's not that simple as I thought I had explained. You have to >> consider not just what is happening in the simulated being's 'mind' or >> simulation but the whole context of the simulation. I'll try again. Even if >> a simulated world is entirely convincing in the short term it still MUST >> exist in the actual reality, and if it is not in accordance with the actual >> logic of that actual reality it will quickly or eventually fail. The real >> being must exist somewhere else and be receiving nutrients etc. in a real >> actual reality with which it is in logical synch with. >> >> Thus you can't have just any old arbitrary fake simulation running or the >> simulated being will quickly die in the real actual reality in which it >> MUST have an actual existence. So there will always be a way to tell if the >> reality you live in is simulated or not. If you actually exist then at >> least the basics must be in accord with actual reality. >> >> Of course, as you suggest, there are many non-essential ways a simulation >> can be wrong and the subject still function, but no essential ones. No >> matter how simulated an internal reality is it still must exist in a real >> actual reality and this will always eventually give a false simulation away >> when it is tested against actual reality by the test of whether it is >> consistent with the continued existence and functioning of the subject. >> >> Edgar >> >> On Monday, January 13, 2014 2:48:25 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >>> >>> Edgar, >>> >>> A simulation can be utterly precise and impossible to distinguish from >>> sensory data, in principle. You seem to be ignoring that by your own theory >>> it is possible to simulate the logic of external reality precisely, as that >>> is what you are positing happens at a fundamental level. >>> >>> I am asking why does a single computational reality need to be >>> fundamental? How could you tell in principle if the universe was being >>> computed through Ontological Energy (whatever that means in a formal >>> sense), vs being a simulation run by an alien in a different universe? >>> >>> The Church Turing thesis proves that you cannot tell the difference. And >>> because there are provably infinite different simulations that could >>> emulate your consciousness, assuming comp (yes, doctor), by the UDA all of >>> them must contribute to your experience of reality, making it uncomputable. >>> >>> You can stick your head in the sand and say it doesn't apply, but that >>> is not an argument. Until you start addressing questions head on, rather >>> than ignoring them or dismissing them insultingly (e.g. adolescent sci-fi), >>> nobody here is going to take you all that seriously. And if you don't care >>> about being taken seriously, then why are you here? >>> >>> Answer this question head-on and you won't lose me: >>> >>> How do you justify the move of using the phenomenal experience of the >>> present moment as "obvious" direct evidence of P-time, when you also state >>> that our phenomenal experience is an illusory construction of "external >>> reality", whatever that is? >>> >>> If you can answer that question without mere hand waving, then you >>> probably also have a valid rebuttal to those who are arguing against your >>> dismissal of block time. So it would be worth your while to answer it... >>> two birds, one stone. I await your answer. >>> >>> Hoping for the best... >>> Terren >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Terren, >>>> >>>> I just explained how it is possible to tell if your particular >>>> simulation is accurate or not. The fact of your continued existence. If it >>>> didn't accurately model the logic of external reality you wouldn't be >>>> here. >>>> The 'Matrix' scenario that you can't distinguish between all possible >>>> simulations is adolescent irrational sci fi BS. And if you recall, even in >>>> the Matrix they COULD tell which was real and which wasn't. >>>> >>>> If your simulation was seriously inaccurate you wouldn't be here to >>>> tell me I couldn't tell.... >>>> >>>> Edgar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, January 13, 2014 12:58:13 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >>>> >>>>> Edgar, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Terren, >>>>>> >>>>>> Don't tell me what's in my theory. There are NO infinity of logical >>>>>> realities being computed. There is no Platonia.... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If what you're positing is a fundamental computational reality, then >>>>> there's nothing in principle that can select a single computational >>>>> reality >>>>> over any other. All you appear to be doing is making that an assumption >>>>> of >>>>> your theory, but it doesn't really buy you anything and it contradicts >>>>> computer science. Sounds exactly like the argument over P-Time and Block >>>>> time... what a coincidence! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> You seem to be referencing Bruno's comp. There is NO 'Platonia' in my >>>>>> theory. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Right, and because Platonia is logically implied given (what appear to >>>>> be) your assumptions, it signifies that your theory is inconsistent. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> There is enormous evidence and theoretical justification for Present >>>>>> moment P-time. It's the most fundamental obvious observation of our >>>>>> existence. Just pull your head out of your books and look around for >>>>>> goodness sakes. Are you alive? If so you are alive in the present >>>>>> moment... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But you have pointed out that every observation we can make is based >>>>> on a constructed illusion. How do you go from the time we experience in >>>>> the >>>>> constructed illusion of our experience, to the actual time of the >>>>> universe? >>>>> You have yet to justify that move. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> No two observers compute the same retinal sky. Everyone's simulation >>>>>> of reality is different. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Agreed. But there are an infinity of possible programs that compute >>>>> your retinal sky in this moment such that it would be impossible for you >>>>> to >>>>> distinguish between them, from the inside. That fact has nothing to do >>>>> with >>>>> my retinal sky, or anyone else's. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> There is absolute certain evidence for "real, actual reality". >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Evidence for reality only makes sense within a given theory. All we >>>>> have are models. What we are all doing here is a search for "the best" >>>>> model. Even if we think we have it, we can still never know what reality >>>>> really is. IOW there is no such thing as "absolute certain evidence" for >>>>> anything. You're engaging in dogma, as if there is only one possible >>>>> model. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Something has to be real because we exist, and what we exist in is >>>>>> reality. Whatever that is is the "real, actual reality". Anyone who >>>>>> doesn't >>>>>> think reality actually exists is brain dead.... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You seem to be saying that our existence is a fact that refutes the >>>>> possibility that we are, as Bruno describes it, "the numbers' dreams". >>>>> And >>>>> while that *is* counter-intuitive, it's not a logical impossibility - on >>>>> the contrary, if you say yes to the doctor, it must be the case, unless >>>>> there is a flaw with the UDA. >>>>> >>>>> Terren >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Edgar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Edgar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, January 13, 2014 12:17:03 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Edgar, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Terren, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is no "infinity of simulations". We are talking about actual >>>>>>>> reality rather than sci fi fantasy here, or at least we should be. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Given that your knowledge of reality necessarily comes from your own >>>>>>> mental simulation of it, it's not clear how you can be so sure about >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> "actual reality" is. I understand you have a theory, but that's all any >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> us have. We can rule theories out when contradicted by evidence, but >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> haven't provided that, unless you count various hand-waving statements. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Every biological organism has one and only one internal mental >>>>>>>> simulation of its external reality environment. This whole system, >>>>>>>> external >>>>>>>> world simulated by the minds of multiple biological observers, >>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>> consists only of computational information flows in the presence and >>>>>>>> logical space of reality. Everything, including ourselves, is >>>>>>>> analogous to >>>>>>>> running, interacting software programs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree with that. However in the logical, computational space you >>>>>>> anchor your theory in (something referred to on this list sometimes as >>>>>>> Platonia), there are an infinity of such "logical realities" that go >>>>>>> through your current computational state. From your first-person >>>>>>> perspective you cannot predict which of the infinite continuations you >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> inhabit in the next moment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The apparent physicality of reality in the minds of biological >>>>>>>> organisms is an evolutionary adaptation to make reality seem more >>>>>>>> meaningful and easier to function within. This physicality is not >>>>>>>> real, >>>>>>>> it's an internal mental illusion. I devote the entire Part IV of my >>>>>>>> book >>>>>>>> dissecting this illusion and explaining how it works. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, I agree, and this is an important insight. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The book also explains in detail how once we identify and >>>>>>>> subtract everything mind adds to reality we arrive at what reality >>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>> is, pure information computationally evolving in the logical space of >>>>>>>> reality I call ontological energy. When we peel back all the various >>>>>>>> layers >>>>>>>> of physicality that mind adds to external reality its remaining purely >>>>>>>> abstract information structure is clearly revealed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Personally, I think your theory fails because it insists on a >>>>>>> single, fundamental computational universe, running in "P-time", for >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> there is no evidence or theoretical justification (none that you have >>>>>>> provided, anyway). I know you point relentlessly to our everyday >>>>>>> experience >>>>>>> of present-moments, but using introspection as evidence is problematic >>>>>>> precisely because as you have pointed out, our subjective reality is >>>>>>> based >>>>>>> on an illusion constructed in the mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Going from Ontological Energy to Platonia is the same move as going >>>>>>> from P-Time to Block Time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We all live in a world that is actually almost entirely a construct >>>>>>>> of our mental simulations of an external information reality. Thus >>>>>>>> when we >>>>>>>> look out into the world we are mostly looking into the structures of >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> own minds. We live inside our minds under what I call the 'retinal >>>>>>>> sky'. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Retinal sky is a good term. Imagine how many different kinds of >>>>>>> programs could compute the same retinal sky for any given moment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just as robots function within environments they simulate >>>>>>>> internally with computations, so do all biological organisms including >>>>>>>> ourselves. We do no 'see' the real actual world, we compute internal >>>>>>>> models >>>>>>>> of it and live within those. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Right, and this is why it is so unclear as to how you can be so >>>>>>> certain about what constitutes the "real actual world". Do you have >>>>>>> access >>>>>>> to some kind of oracle? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is only these internal biological simulations that there is any >>>>>>>> evidence for. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Again, if you could only turn such statements inward on your own >>>>>>> theories, I think it would be much easier for your ideas to gain >>>>>>> traction. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is no evidence of any 'matrix' type simulations. That's just >>>>>>>> adolescent sci fi unless there is some actual evidence. Again I went >>>>>>>> through that sci fi phase back in the 1960's in a short story i wrote >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> the same theme titled "The Livies". Let's stick to evidence based >>>>>>>> reality >>>>>>>> rather than sci fi... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> By your own admission above there is no evidence for the "real, >>>>>>> actual reality" you've articulated either. It all looks like sci-fi to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> naive realist. If we dismissed theories on the basis of weirdness, we >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have tossed QM out the window a century ago. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Terren >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Edgar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday, January 10, 2014 1:05:29 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Edgar, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That begs the question. You start by assuming reality is computed, >>>>>>>>> and then conclude that because reality exists, reality must be >>>>>>>>> computed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Again I will point out that except for one key difference, your >>>>>>>>> ideas and Bruno's are actually pretty similar. The difference of >>>>>>>>> course >>>>>>>>> being that the UDA entails that there are an infinity of computed >>>>>>>>> realities. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Let me approach this from a different direction. Given that you >>>>>>>>> agree that you could be digitally replaced and not notice the >>>>>>>>> difference, >>>>>>>>> this also entails that you could be placed into a simulation, where >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>> simulated brain is functionally identical to your real brain or the >>>>>>>>> prosthetic brain that could replace it with you noticing. So a >>>>>>>>> simulation >>>>>>>>> of you embedded in a simulated world is also conscious - this is more >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> less what your theory of consciousness says. The next step is to see >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> there are an infinity of possible simulations that contain your >>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>> brain state, and thus your consciousness, in this moment (or any >>>>>>>>> given >>>>>>>>> moment). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you're still with me we can go back to the UDA, which in so >>>>>>>>> many words says that all of these infinite simulations exist in >>>>>>>>> Platonia, >>>>>>>>> traced by the Universal Dovetailer (a rather simple program) - and >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>> moment by moment reality is a view from the inside of the infinity of >>>>>>>>> simulations that contain you. Indeed, physics and the physical world >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> general represent a stable measure on the kinds of worlds that could >>>>>>>>> support your consciousness. But because the infinity of simulations >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> necessarily what renders the physical world, it is not computable. >>>>>>>>> That is >>>>>>>>> the contradiction entailed by a computational universe such as you >>>>>>>>> elaborate in your theory. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your objection about human math and reality math, I believe, is an >>>>>>>>> attempt to refute step 8 of the UDA - that is usually the most >>>>>>>>> problematic >>>>>>>>> step for people who don't agree with the UDA. It would be very >>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>> if you could identify a flaw in the UDA, supported by arguments >>>>>>>>> rather than >>>>>>>>> simple assertion, as you have done to this point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Terren >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Liz, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No, that's not the only way to falsify it. One merely needs to >>>>>>>>>> show it doesn't properly describe reality as I've just done. If you >>>>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>>>> assume a computational universe in the first place you have to >>>>>>>>>> assume (you >>>>>>>>>> are assuming) that it computes reality. The fact that reality exists >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> conclusive proof. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Edgar >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 9, 2014 8:53:18 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 10 January 2014 14:22, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Liz, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> No, I don't agree with that at all. As I've said on a number of >>>>>>>>>>>> occasions, reality is obviously computed because it exists. What >>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>> convincing proof could there be? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> One that explains why that has to be so would be a good start. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If Bruno's comp claims reality is non-computable it's pure >>>>>>>>>>>> nonsense that is conclusively falsified by the very existence of >>>>>>>>>>>> reality. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The point is that certain assumptions lead to certain >>>>>>>>>>> conclusions. If the conclusions invalidate the assumptions, then >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> correct response is to throw out the original assumptions as >>>>>>>>>>> invalid. Bruno >>>>>>>>>>> starts from the assumption that consciousness is a form of >>>>>>>>>>> computation and >>>>>>>>>>> draws certain inferences. This isn't what comp "claims" it's what >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> argument shows, given the assumptions. The only way to falsify it >>>>>>>>>>> is to >>>>>>>>>>> show that one of the assumptions is wrong, or that there is a flaw >>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>> reasoning that leads to the conclusions. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group >>>>>>>>>> /everything-list. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
