I meant the question of using the experience of a present moment (built
from an illusory construction) as evidence of a fundamental "p-time". You
haven't answered that - how you could logically make that move. It's not
arrogance, because I challenged you to answer that one question and you
have ignored/dismissed it.


On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:32 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:

> Terren,
>
> Where have you been? I did answer this question. You create a biological
> robot by putting together the exact parts that constitute a human being
> down to the last cell and molecule. The result will be a conscious human
> being unless you believe in some nonsensical concept of soul or ghost in
> the machine that has to be added in addition.
>
> As to other varieties of robots don't you understand you need to define
> what you mean by consciousness before you can answer the question? Every
> robot is conscious if you define the results of its computations as
> consciousness, and not otherwise...
>
> And what arrogance to assume that because I didn't answer some question "I
> don't have an answer", especially since I did answer and you apparently
> didn't read the answer.
>
> Neither case gives me much confidence in your ability to think logically...
>
> Edgar
>
>
> On Monday, January 13, 2014 9:15:37 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>
>> Edgar,
>>
>> The Matrix style simulation is a very special case and it's description
>> in which a biological being has its sensory data shunted by a virtual
>> interface is beside the point.
>>
>> Probably a better example is the "uploading" scenario, where the doctor
>> doesn't restore your mind in a physical body, but scans your brain/body
>> into a simulation. at which point you wake up in the simulation. If the
>> simulation is rich enough you might not know the difference.
>>
>> I noticed you did not answer my question, which tells me you do not have
>> an answer.
>>
>> T
>>
>> The point
>> On Jan 13, 2014 7:10 PM, "Edgar L. Owen" <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Terren,
>>>
>>> No, it's not that simple as I thought I had explained. You have to
>>> consider not just what is happening in the simulated being's 'mind' or
>>> simulation but the whole context of the simulation. I'll try again. Even if
>>> a simulated world is entirely convincing in the short term it still MUST
>>> exist in the actual reality, and if it is not in accordance with the actual
>>> logic of that actual reality it will quickly or eventually fail. The real
>>> being must exist somewhere else and be receiving nutrients etc. in a real
>>> actual reality with which it is in logical synch with.
>>>
>>> Thus you can't have just any old arbitrary fake simulation running or
>>> the simulated being will quickly die in the real actual reality in which it
>>> MUST have an actual existence. So there will always be a way to tell if the
>>> reality you live in is simulated or not. If you actually exist then at
>>> least the basics must be in accord with actual reality.
>>>
>>> Of course, as you suggest, there are many non-essential ways a
>>> simulation can be wrong and the subject still function, but no essential
>>> ones. No matter how simulated an internal reality is it still must exist in
>>> a real actual reality and this will always eventually give a false
>>> simulation away when it is tested against actual reality by the test of
>>> whether it is consistent with the continued existence and functioning of
>>> the subject.
>>>
>>> Edgar
>>>
>>> On Monday, January 13, 2014 2:48:25 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Edgar,
>>>>
>>>> A simulation can be utterly precise and impossible to distinguish from
>>>> sensory data, in principle. You seem to be ignoring that by your own theory
>>>> it is possible to simulate the logic of external reality precisely, as that
>>>> is what you are positing happens at a fundamental level.
>>>>
>>>> I am asking why does a single computational reality need to be
>>>> fundamental?  How could you tell in principle if the universe was being
>>>> computed through Ontological Energy (whatever that means in a formal
>>>> sense), vs being a simulation run by an alien in a different universe?
>>>>
>>>> The Church Turing thesis proves that you cannot tell the difference.
>>>> And because there are provably infinite different simulations that could
>>>> emulate your consciousness, assuming comp (yes, doctor), by the UDA all of
>>>> them must contribute to your experience of reality, making it uncomputable.
>>>>
>>>> You can stick your head in the sand and say it doesn't apply, but that
>>>> is not an argument. Until you start addressing questions head on, rather
>>>> than ignoring them or dismissing them insultingly (e.g. adolescent sci-fi),
>>>> nobody here is going to take you all that seriously. And if you don't care
>>>> about being taken seriously, then why are you here?
>>>>
>>>> Answer this question head-on and you won't lose me:
>>>>
>>>> How do you justify the move of using the phenomenal experience of the
>>>> present moment as "obvious" direct evidence of P-time, when you also state
>>>> that our phenomenal experience is an illusory construction of "external
>>>> reality", whatever that is?
>>>>
>>>> If you can answer that question without mere hand waving, then you
>>>> probably also have a valid rebuttal to those who are arguing against your
>>>> dismissal of block time. So it would be worth your while to answer it...
>>>> two birds, one stone.  I await your answer.
>>>>
>>>> Hoping for the best...
>>>> Terren
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Terren,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just explained how it is possible to tell if your particular
>>>>> simulation is accurate or not. The fact of your continued existence. If it
>>>>> didn't accurately model the logic of external reality you wouldn't be 
>>>>> here.
>>>>> The 'Matrix' scenario that you can't distinguish between all possible
>>>>> simulations is adolescent irrational sci fi BS. And if you recall, even in
>>>>> the Matrix they COULD tell which was real and which wasn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> If your simulation was seriously inaccurate you wouldn't be here to
>>>>> tell me I couldn't tell....
>>>>>
>>>>> Edgar
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, January 13, 2014 12:58:13 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Edgar,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Terren,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't tell me what's in my theory. There are NO infinity of logical
>>>>>>> realities being computed. There is no Platonia....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If what you're positing is a fundamental computational reality, then
>>>>>> there's nothing in principle that can select a single computational 
>>>>>> reality
>>>>>> over any other. All you appear to be doing is making that an assumption 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> your theory, but it doesn't really buy you anything and it contradicts
>>>>>> computer science.  Sounds exactly like the argument over P-Time and Block
>>>>>> time... what a coincidence!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You seem to be referencing Bruno's comp. There is NO 'Platonia' in
>>>>>>> my theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right, and because Platonia is logically implied given (what appear
>>>>>> to be) your assumptions, it signifies that your theory is inconsistent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is enormous evidence and theoretical justification for Present
>>>>>>> moment P-time. It's the most fundamental obvious observation of our
>>>>>>> existence. Just pull your head out of your books and look around for
>>>>>>> goodness sakes. Are you alive? If so you are alive in the present 
>>>>>>> moment...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you have pointed out that every observation we can make is based
>>>>>> on a constructed illusion. How do you go from the time we experience in 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> constructed illusion of our experience, to the actual time of the 
>>>>>> universe?
>>>>>>  You have yet to justify that move.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No two observers compute the same retinal sky. Everyone's simulation
>>>>>>> of reality is different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed.  But there are an infinity of possible programs that compute
>>>>>> your retinal sky in this moment such that it would be impossible for you 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> distinguish between them, from the inside. That fact has nothing to do 
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> my retinal sky, or anyone else's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is absolute certain evidence for "real, actual reality".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Evidence for reality only makes sense within a given theory. All we
>>>>>> have are models. What we are all doing here is a search for "the best"
>>>>>> model. Even if we think we have it, we can still never know what reality
>>>>>> really is. IOW there is no such thing as "absolute certain evidence" for
>>>>>> anything. You're engaging in dogma, as if there is only one possible 
>>>>>> model.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something has to be real because we exist, and what we exist in is
>>>>>>> reality. Whatever that is is the "real, actual reality". Anyone who 
>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>> think reality actually exists is brain dead....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You seem to be saying that our existence is a fact that refutes the
>>>>>> possibility that we are, as Bruno describes it, "the numbers' dreams". 
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> while that *is* counter-intuitive, it's not a logical impossibility - on
>>>>>> the contrary, if you say yes to the doctor, it must be the case, unless
>>>>>> there is a flaw with the UDA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Terren
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Edgar
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Edgar
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, January 13, 2014 12:17:03 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Edgar,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Terren,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is no "infinity of simulations". We are talking about actual
>>>>>>>>> reality rather than sci fi fantasy here, or at least we should be.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given that your knowledge of reality necessarily comes from your
>>>>>>>> own mental simulation of it, it's not clear how you can be so sure 
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> what "actual reality" is. I understand you have a theory, but that's 
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> any of us have. We can rule theories out when contradicted by 
>>>>>>>> evidence, but
>>>>>>>> you haven't provided that, unless you count various hand-waving 
>>>>>>>> statements.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Every biological organism has one and only one internal mental
>>>>>>>>> simulation of its external reality environment. This whole system, 
>>>>>>>>> external
>>>>>>>>> world simulated by the minds of multiple biological observers, 
>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>> consists only of computational information flows in the presence and
>>>>>>>>> logical space of reality. Everything, including ourselves, is 
>>>>>>>>> analogous to
>>>>>>>>> running, interacting software programs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with that. However in the logical, computational space you
>>>>>>>> anchor your theory in (something referred to on this list sometimes as
>>>>>>>> Platonia), there are an infinity of such "logical realities" that go
>>>>>>>> through your current computational state. From your first-person
>>>>>>>> perspective you cannot predict which of the infinite continuations you 
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> inhabit in the next moment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The apparent physicality of reality in the minds of biological
>>>>>>>>> organisms is an evolutionary adaptation to make reality seem more
>>>>>>>>> meaningful and easier to function within. This physicality is not 
>>>>>>>>> real,
>>>>>>>>> it's an internal mental illusion. I devote the entire Part IV of my 
>>>>>>>>> book
>>>>>>>>> dissecting this illusion and explaining how it works.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I agree, and this is an important insight.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  The book also explains in detail how once we identify and
>>>>>>>>> subtract everything mind adds to reality we arrive at what reality 
>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>> is, pure information computationally evolving in the logical space of
>>>>>>>>> reality I call ontological energy. When we peel back all the various 
>>>>>>>>> layers
>>>>>>>>> of physicality that mind adds to external reality its remaining purely
>>>>>>>>> abstract information structure is clearly revealed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Personally, I think your theory fails because it insists on a
>>>>>>>> single, fundamental computational universe, running in "P-time", for 
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> there is no evidence or theoretical justification (none that you have
>>>>>>>> provided, anyway). I know you point relentlessly to our everyday 
>>>>>>>> experience
>>>>>>>> of present-moments, but using introspection as evidence is problematic
>>>>>>>> precisely because as you have pointed out, our subjective reality is 
>>>>>>>> based
>>>>>>>> on an illusion constructed in the mind.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Going from Ontological Energy to Platonia is the same move as going
>>>>>>>> from P-Time to Block Time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We all live in a world that is actually almost entirely a
>>>>>>>>> construct of our mental simulations of an external information 
>>>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>>> Thus when we look out into the world we are mostly looking into the
>>>>>>>>> structures of our own minds. We live inside our minds under what I 
>>>>>>>>> call the
>>>>>>>>> 'retinal sky'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Retinal sky is a good term. Imagine how many different kinds of
>>>>>>>> programs could compute the same retinal sky for any given moment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just as robots function within environments they simulate
>>>>>>>>> internally with computations, so do all biological organisms including
>>>>>>>>> ourselves. We do no 'see' the real actual world, we compute internal 
>>>>>>>>> models
>>>>>>>>> of it and live within those.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right, and this is why it is so unclear as to how you can be so
>>>>>>>> certain about what constitutes the "real actual world". Do you have 
>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>> to some kind of oracle?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is only these internal biological simulations that there is any
>>>>>>>>> evidence for.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, if you could only turn such statements inward on your own
>>>>>>>> theories, I think it would be much easier for your ideas to gain 
>>>>>>>> traction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is no evidence of any 'matrix' type simulations. That's just
>>>>>>>>> adolescent sci fi unless there is some actual evidence. Again I went
>>>>>>>>> through that sci fi phase back in the 1960's in a short story i wrote 
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> the same theme titled "The Livies". Let's stick to evidence based 
>>>>>>>>> reality
>>>>>>>>> rather than sci fi...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By your own admission above there is no evidence for the "real,
>>>>>>>> actual reality" you've articulated either. It all looks like sci-fi to 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> naive realist. If we dismissed theories on the basis of weirdness, we 
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> have tossed QM out the window a century ago.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Terren
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Edgar
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, January 10, 2014 1:05:29 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Edgar,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That begs the question. You start by assuming reality is
>>>>>>>>>> computed, and then conclude that because reality exists, reality 
>>>>>>>>>> must be
>>>>>>>>>> computed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Again I will point out that except for one key difference, your
>>>>>>>>>> ideas and Bruno's are actually pretty similar. The difference of 
>>>>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>>>>> being that the UDA entails that there are an infinity of computed
>>>>>>>>>> realities.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Let me approach this from a different direction. Given that you
>>>>>>>>>> agree that you could be digitally replaced and not notice the 
>>>>>>>>>> difference,
>>>>>>>>>> this also entails that you could be placed into a simulation, where 
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> simulated brain is functionally identical to your real brain or the
>>>>>>>>>> prosthetic brain that could replace it with you noticing. So a 
>>>>>>>>>> simulation
>>>>>>>>>> of you embedded in a simulated world is also conscious - this is 
>>>>>>>>>> more or
>>>>>>>>>> less what your theory of consciousness says. The next step is to see 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> there are an infinity of possible simulations that contain your 
>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>> brain state, and thus your consciousness, in this moment (or any 
>>>>>>>>>> given
>>>>>>>>>> moment).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you're still with me we can go back to the UDA, which in so
>>>>>>>>>> many words says that all of these infinite simulations exist in 
>>>>>>>>>> Platonia,
>>>>>>>>>> traced by the Universal Dovetailer (a rather simple program) - and 
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> moment by moment reality is a view from the inside of the infinity of
>>>>>>>>>> simulations that contain you. Indeed, physics and the physical world 
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> general represent a stable measure on the kinds of worlds that could
>>>>>>>>>> support your consciousness. But because the infinity of simulations 
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> necessarily what renders the physical world, it is not computable. 
>>>>>>>>>> That is
>>>>>>>>>> the contradiction entailed by a computational universe such as you
>>>>>>>>>> elaborate in your theory.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your objection about human math and reality math, I believe, is
>>>>>>>>>> an attempt to refute step 8 of the UDA - that is usually the most
>>>>>>>>>> problematic step for people who don't agree with the UDA. It would 
>>>>>>>>>> be very
>>>>>>>>>> interesting if you could identify a flaw in the UDA, supported by 
>>>>>>>>>> arguments
>>>>>>>>>> rather than simple assertion, as you have done to this point.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Terren
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Liz,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, that's not the only way to falsify it. One merely needs to
>>>>>>>>>>> show it doesn't properly describe reality as I've just done. If you 
>>>>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>>>> assume a computational universe in the first place you have to 
>>>>>>>>>>> assume (you
>>>>>>>>>>> are assuming) that it computes reality. The fact that reality 
>>>>>>>>>>> exists is
>>>>>>>>>>> conclusive proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Edgar
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, January 9, 2014 8:53:18 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10 January 2014 14:22, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liz,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, I don't agree with that at all. As I've said on a number
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of occasions, reality is obviously computed because it exists. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> convincing proof could there be?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> One that explains why that has to be so would be a good start.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  If Bruno's comp claims reality is non-computable it's pure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nonsense that is conclusively falsified by the very existence of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The point is that certain assumptions lead to certain
>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusions. If the conclusions invalidate the assumptions, then 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> correct response is to throw out the original assumptions as 
>>>>>>>>>>>> invalid. Bruno
>>>>>>>>>>>> starts from the assumption that consciousness is a form of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> computation and
>>>>>>>>>>>> draws certain inferences. This isn't what comp "claims" it's what 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> argument shows, given the assumptions. The only way to falsify it 
>>>>>>>>>>>> is to
>>>>>>>>>>>> show that one of the assumptions is wrong, or that there is a flaw 
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning that leads to the conclusions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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