On 22 Jul 2014, at 20:57, John Mikes wrote:
Bruno and Kim:
what "SELF" would you consider in e.g. ants? if we realize the
highly merged (individualized?) group-self - the answer is different
from taking the present individual (simplified DOWN to functional
minimum composition units) 'ant' and trying to assign a 'self' to
such partial(?) entity. We may see the beginnings of such
communalization in human societies as well. We "feel" as part of a
larger unit in certain aspects.
(a weird idea: did Lenin think of his further evolved 'communist
man' - the one capable of unselfishly participate in achieving the
common good - as an ant? Definitely as a partial intermediate to it
without so identifying).
I distinguish the 3p self, and the 1p self. The 3p self of anything is
basically "itself", or a sufficiently good description of itself at
some level.
The 3p self of the ants is determined, in nature, in the DNA code of
the ants, that the Queen can produce.
The 1p self of the ants is more hard to imagine, but who knows. A wasp
developed a perfume to make ants fighting against themselves. Then
resuming their work when the perfume dissipate, so that having the
time to stick in a caterpillar, which convinced those ants to protect
it from the wasp, but the wasp found the trick and the answer, quasi
like in an opera, except it took millions of years. No 1p? I think
they do, even similar to us for thirst, hungriness, attraction and
repulsion, with a bigger emphasis on smell's role.
Every 3p object has a 3p describable self, but only some machines can
exploits this fact, by well known technic.
Of course when having a self, the machine can complain better, instead
of just crashing. I need more memory. I will no more run that
application if you don't buy another processor, Do you really want
that cookie?, etc.
Of course, ants consciousness might be closer to amoeba's
consciousness, when a cuttlefish or octopus would be closer to us, yet
it might still be the same universal person behind.
Bruno
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
I will send a longer comment. here are just some precision.
On 22 Jul 2014, at 11:28, Kim Jones wrote:
On 20 Jul 2014, at 10:54 pm, Kim Jones, then Bruno Marchal <[email protected]
> wrote:
I don't think, along with Russell Standish, that ants are conscious,
for example - but individuals may share in a group 'self'. Selfhood
is independent of minds or of contents of minds or the precision or
mental acuity (perception) of minds. It appears to be the kind of
knowledge of something that cannot be demonstrated in any 3p way.
I think that ants are conscious, but probably not self-conscious.
That comes with the spider, cuttlefishes, ... perhaps.
Bruno
So like me you observe there are two "flavours" of consciousness?
1. The non self-aware
2. The self-aware
yes. I usually call them
1. The conscious
2. The self-conscious
In most context aware and conscious are equivalent to me. Both 1
and 2 implies a self, but the self-conscious has more cognities
abilities. It is also the difference between RA and PA. Self-
conscious corrrespond to the Löbian machine.
It appears that not noticing that you have a self does not mean you
don't have one.
Agreed. Amoeba have 3-self, and 1-self, but absolutely no conception
of it, as far as I know.
This is good news for all living things. You have a self. You may
not have noticed it but you have one.
Hmm.... My coffee machine has a self also, but a priori no
conception at all of it too.
This
Is the following true:
Self-awareness = self-consciousness (?)
OK. Both involves the 1p. But the []p gives a notion of 3p self-
awareness, plausibly not conscious, like a machine which can assert
simple (correct) belief about itself in the 3p sense, like an
altimeter in a plane.
The latter sounds more like Freud's Superego to me, another ego that
confronts the ego within the same psyche. I'm sure this demonstrates
that consciousness is not unitary.
Not sure what you mean. What do you mean by consciousness is not
unitary? I might agree or not according to different possible
meanings here.
Bruno
K
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