On 20 Jul 2014, at 07:57, meekerdb wrote:

On 7/19/2014 10:38 PM, Kim Jones wrote:



On 20 Jul 2014, at 3:11 pm, "'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List" <everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:



From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:49 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: It Knows That It Knows

On 7/19/2014 9:25 PM, Kim Jones wrote:


On 20 Jul 2014, at 1:44 pm, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:26 PM, Kim Jones <kimjo...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> Consciousness comes in two flavours (that I know of):
1. I know
2. I know that I know. (Presumably something to do with remembering that you knew.)
Are there any others?

Well, do you know that you know that you know? Even if the answer is yes after just a few more iteration the answer will certainly be no because you won't be able to follow even what the question means. And as a practical matter at least 99% of the time you don't know that you know, you just know. Most of the time it would be counterproductive anyway, if you were fully aware of how you know that you know how to walk and chew gum at the same time you'd fall flat on your face.

  John K Clark


OK. So what separates us then, from dolphins and elephants who apparently also 'know that they know'? You aren't allowed to respond "Intelligence" because intelligence is what makes introspection possible in the first place. Without self-awareness there is no self to inspect. You can can question many things about the content of your consciousness. A cat can't. There needs to be a 'knower', a 'self' or a 'subject'. Who or what is that? What part of your brain is more evolved than a cat's brain that allows you to say "I know"?

The language part.

Brent

Let us not overlook those nifty opposable thumbs that made us superior tool makers.
Chris


How do language and/or opposable thumbs construct an experiencing subject?

Clearly the subject precedes the existence of these things.

No it's not clear at all.

Where does the self come from? What is it? A self constructs language and sees the value of opposable thumbs. The self is primary.

Of course even without language animals have a self concept. They know where they are, how they feel. But that doesn't mean they have the introspective ability to say "I know." Once they have language they can articulate that some people "know how", e.g. their parents know how to find food. With language they can put "I" and "know" together. It's not that different than mathematicians putting Peano's axioms and rules of inference together and "knowing arithmetic".

Colloquially only. In science we never know as such. It is only belief, theory, assumptions, etc.

Bruno




Brent

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Reply via email to