On 20 Jul 2014, at 08:13, Kim Jones wrote:
On 20 Jul 2014, at 3:57 pm, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote:
On 7/19/2014 10:38 PM, Kim Jones wrote:
On 20 Jul 2014, at 3:11 pm, "'Chris de Morsella' via Everything
List" <[email protected]> wrote:
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]
] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: It Knows That It Knows
On 7/19/2014 9:25 PM, Kim Jones wrote:
On 20 Jul 2014, at 1:44 pm, John Clark <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:26 PM, Kim Jones <[email protected]
> wrote:
> Consciousness comes in two flavours (that I know of):
1. I know
2. I know that I know. (Presumably something to do with
remembering that you knew.)
Are there any others?
Well, do you know that you know that you know? Even if the answer
is yes after just a few more iteration the answer will certainly
be no because you won't be able to follow even what the question
means. And as a practical matter at least 99% of the time you
don't know that you know, you just know. Most of the time it
would be counterproductive anyway, if you were fully aware of how
you know that you know how to walk and chew gum at the same time
you'd fall flat on your face.
John K Clark
OK. So what separates us then, from dolphins and elephants who
apparently also 'know that they know'? You aren't allowed to
respond "Intelligence" because intelligence is what makes
introspection possible in the first place. Without self-awareness
there is no self to inspect. You can can question many things
about the content of your consciousness. A cat can't. There needs
to be a 'knower', a 'self' or a 'subject'. Who or what is that?
What part of your brain is more evolved than a cat's brain that
allows you to say "I know"?
The language part.
Brent
Let us not overlook those nifty opposable thumbs that made us
superior tool makers.
Chris
How do language and/or opposable thumbs construct an experiencing
subject?
Clearly the subject precedes the existence of these things.
No it's not clear at all.
Where does the self come from? What is it? A self constructs
language and sees the value of opposable thumbs. The self is
primary.
Of course even without language animals have a self concept. They
know where they are, how they feel. But that doesn't mean they
have the introspective ability to say "I know." Once they have
language they can articulate that some people "know how", e.g.
their parents know how to find food. With language they can put
"I" and "know" together. It's not that different than
mathematicians putting Peano's axioms and rules of inference
together and "knowing arithmetic".
Brent
So are we happy with a definition of self as arising from language?
Where does language arise from? Language has this magical ability to
construct itself as well as the subject that experiences it?
It seems to me that arithmetic (computer science) explains well both
- where the 3p self comes from (second recursion theorem, D'x' = 'xx',
etc.)
- where the 1p self comes from (through the machine's discovery that
she is not her 3p self).
Theaetetus saw the possibility of his, but Socrates refute him (and
the "modern have followed him), because they confuse the modal box of
knowledge with a 3p representation. That is provably wrong for
machines, but I agree the point is subtle.
Bruno
K
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