> On 11 Feb 2019, at 19:31, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 9:24:18 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 11 Feb 2019, at 00:34, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Two recent books: >> >> The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness >> Arthur S. Reber >> https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ >> <https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ> >> >> Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and Creativity >> Paul Thagard >> https://books.google.com/books/about/Brain_Mind.html?id=jJjHvAEACAAJ >> <https://books.google.com/books/about/Brain_Mind.html?id=jJjHvAEACAAJ> >> >> via >> When Did Consciousness Begin? >> Paul Thagard >> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/hot-thought/201901/when-did-consciousness-begin >> >> <https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/hot-thought/201901/when-did-consciousness-begin> > > > I compare with the theology of the computationalist Universal Turing > machine’s theology. > > (So I do the blasphemy some times, and it is important that keep in mind the > necessary interrogation point). I have not look at the answer of others, to > test this later …). > > Consciousness is just the “instinctive” or “automated” belief/anticipation > concerning a possible reality. > > > >> >> Thagard's 10 hypotheses: >> >> 1. Consciousness has always existed, because God is conscious and eternal. > > Consciousness has always existed, because all universal machine/number are > conscious and “eternal” (out of time). > > Is God conscious? Open problem. > > > > > >> >> 2. Consciousness began when the universe formed, around 13.7 billion years >> ago. > > > This cannot be. But the event “13 billion years ago” and many variants occurs > "all the time” (or all the number-of-step of all universal dovetailing) in > the arithmetical reality. > > Those are important events in our history, but the consciousness which does > the history selection was there “before”. > > > > >> >> 3. Consciousness began with single-celled life, around 3.7 billion years ago >> (Reber). > > > Not really, but the consciousness of the universal machine get a physical > stable implementations, apparently relatively to us. We get many universal > entities capable of interacting with a solid notion of resources. > > > > >> >> 4. Consciousness began with multicellular plants, around 850 million years >> ago. > > In our histories, which “tautologically” are those semantical statifying the > logic of the material modes of self-reference, which seems the case thanks to > the quantum and Gödel (which enforces the distinction between []p and []p & > <>t in the provable part of the machine in arithmetic. > > Again, important events in our history, but consciousness was “there before”. > > > > >> >> 5. Consciousness began when animals such as jellyfish got thousands of >> neurons, around 580 million years ago. > > > That’s about the time the soul of the machine falls, and they begin to > hallucinate and believe in what they were conscious of, and thus get > partially deluded. The universal machine get Löbian. Soon, they will even > begin to believe in the axiom of infinity, and calculus, if not Lagrangian > (grin). > > > >> >> 6. Consciousness began when insects and fish developed larger brains with >> about a million neurons (honeybees) or 10 million neurons (zebrafish) around >> 560 million years ago. > > It has been discovered that bees adds and multiplies little numbers, when > they need, to get pollen from mathematical human teacher! But I still think > that spider, especially the hunters, go much farer in their conception of > reality as a video illustrates well here. At 0.44 she explores and get a > surprise when “not seeing a spider where expected”, that occurs two times, > and the second times she run away! > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4pdf49bxw > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4pdf49bxw> > > > >> >> 7. Consciousness began when animals such as birds and mammals developed much >> larger brains with hundreds of millions neurons, around 200 million years >> ago. [Thagard] > > Much larger brain enlarges the number of stupidity you can asserts, but of > course, the catastrophes are limited until … the universal (natural) > languages develops … > > > >> >> 8. Consciousness began with humans, homo sapiens, around 200,000 years ago. > > “Homo sapiens” cannot be asserted by the homo if he is really sapiens … > > Let us say that the peculiar human Intelligence, accompanied by human > stupidity, begin to develop. > > Intelligence and stupidity are two big friends, they never separate each > other. > > > > >> >> 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000 years >> ago (Julian Jaynes). > > Birth of the little ego. Birth of cruelty and the human suffering. > > > >> >> 10. Consciousness does not exist, as it is just a scientific mistake >> (behaviorism} or a “user illusion” (Daniel Dennett). > > Negation of the first person indubitable: you don’t exist. Dennett is > logically correct, as this follows from its ontological commitment in both > primary matter and Mechanism. > > Of course, it is simpler to just omit such an ontological commitment. > > Bruno > > > > > Dennett is (or was - Philip Goff suggested he might have changed his mind > last year) a phony materialist,
I would like to see a quote by Dennet saying he changed his opinion, if you find one. Dennett is a rather nice guy, and his book with Hofstadter “Mind’s I” is the closer book to the universal machine theology. His book “brainstorms” was rather good, and I did appreciate his amount of lucidity against his own theory of consciousness shown in “Consciousness explained”, so I would not been astonished he changed its mind on this, as I would expect. But his materialism seems quite entrenched also. So ... > since a real materialist believes in the "first-class" status of (material) > experience (like Epicurus did). I suspect some word play here. “Material experience” is an oxymoron, once you assume computationalism. An experience is not a material things. It is not made of energy, wave or anything physical. That why non eliminativist materialist have to bring some identity thesis to associate mind and matter, but that is what leads to the mind-body problem and its apparent unsolvability. With mechanism, matter is conceptually explain as persistent hallucination by numbers. Those hallucination obeys the laws of computer science / arithmetic, and are constrained enough to give rise to the quantum logic of the observable. So we get a theory of matter, well verified by the empirical facts, from a theory of consciousness, where consciousness admits a semi-axiomatic definition, as above. Bruno > > - pt > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
