Let me summarize my view here:
- Saldanha (1966) named *Torenia lindernioides* which, according to
his paper, is endemic to the Western Ghats, and differs from *Torenia
crustacea* in having a prominently winged calyx.
- Prasad, Roy, Sunojkumar (2017) re-established *Torenia godefroyi,*
and put *Torenia lindernioides* as its synonym. *Torenia godefroyi* was
separated from *Torenia crustacea* in having a prominently winged calyx,
among other characters. *Torenia godefroyi *was earlier known only from
Indo-China region (SE Asia). So, according to this paper, the revised
distribution of *Torenia godefroyi* is Indo-China region and Western
Ghats.
- So my question is, where is this *Torenia godefroyi* from Western
Ghats with prominently winged calyx? Don't we have any image of it? Or are
we misidentifying some of its images as
*Torenia crustacea? *
I think some thinking is required on it, instead of this rapid
discussion.
Tabish
-------------------------------------------
<http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net
The waterhole of flower lovers
On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 8:09 PM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi, Dinesh ji,
> As all has now been identified as Lindernia crustacea
> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/>, it has to be
> the same i.e. with the winged calyx.
>
> On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 at 19:56, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Garg ji, when I go through photographs posted in SK 3258 24 December
>> 2021 <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg> that show
>> calyx, they do not seem to me as "distinctly winged" or ribbed. They look
>> to me rather as separated sepals. That is how I perceive.
>> Regards.
>> Dinesh
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 7:23 PM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, Dinesh ji,
>>> How do you say "All of the other observations at eFI related to
>>> Lindernia crustacea do not have distinctly winged calyx" ?
>>> I feel otherwise that most of the observations at eFI related to
>>> Lindernia crustacea also have distinctly winged calyx.
>>> Pl. see one e.g. SK 3258 24 December 2021
>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 at 19:19, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Tabish, I agree with you on the distinctly winged calyx, and
>>>> therefore rushed to upload my observation in iNaturalist.
>>>> But there the suggested ID is not agreed upon. I have given the link to
>>>> this discussion.
>>>>
>>>> All of the other observations at eFI related to Lindernia crustacea do
>>>> not have distinctly winged calyx and therefore will remain as Lindernia
>>>> crustacea.
>>>> I have sent a personal mail to Aaratrik Pal, requesting him to give his
>>>> views regarding this discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Regards.
>>>> Dinesh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 7:10 PM Tabish <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Dinesh,
>>>>> I think there is some confusion here. T. godefroyi is separated
>>>>> from T. crustacea one some characteristics, one of which is the distinctly
>>>>> winged calyx. I am only saying that this plant should not be T. crustacea
>>>>> as it shows winged calyx. If T. lindernioides is synonymous with T.
>>>>> godefroy, it may be so, I don't know - I don't have any description, pics,
>>>>> herbarium pics of T. godefroy to compare with.
>>>>> Tabish
>>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net
>>>>> The waterhole of flower lovers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 6:34 PM Dinesh Valke <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> At iNaturalist, I suggested ID of *Torenia lindernioides*
>>>>>> C.J.Saldanha for two of my observations: 1) of MIDC Andheri
>>>>>> <https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/137952066>, and 2) of Nagla
>>>>>> forest <https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/72003993>.
>>>>>> Aaratrik Pal, M.Sc., University of North Bengal, Department of Botany
>>>>>> disagrees with the ID, and asserts on *Torenia crustacea* (L.) Cham.
>>>>>> & Schltdl.
>>>>>> He says:
>>>>>> "POWO is updating daily, and the above information about *T.
>>>>>> godefroyi* have not been updated yet. Both are synonymous and is
>>>>>> also distributed in West Bengal."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aaratrik Pal <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Aaratrik-Pal> has
>>>>>> written many articles related to *Torenia* spp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards.
>>>>>> Dinesh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 2:29 PM Dinesh Valke <[email protected]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By now, I have made changes to my notes in flickr.
>>>>>>> As far as the characteristic of "distinctly winged calyx" goes, I
>>>>>>> can see it in my posted plants.
>>>>>>> In the first photo, we do see a capsule in the centre; however the
>>>>>>> sepals are not completely enclosing the mature capsule.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Garg ji's listed posts, the sepals seem to be more blunt than
>>>>>>> distinctly winged ... as such would resolve to *Lindernia crustacea*.
>>>>>>> I am not good at this assertion. So I hope that Sunoj ji will provide
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> comments soon and help resolve the ID.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards.
>>>>>>> Dinesh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 11:40 AM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, I am not satisfied with the id as *Torenia godefroyi* or
>>>>>>>> *Torenia
>>>>>>>> lindernioides *(with restricted range in Western Ghats and
>>>>>>>> Cambodia).
>>>>>>>> What about other observations from other areas at Lindernia
>>>>>>>> crustacea
>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> like
>>>>>>>> SK 3258 24 December 2021
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg>
>>>>>>>> Lindernia sp. (1) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-1
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/indiantreepix/Huo2W3tvDdU>
>>>>>>>> Lindernia sp. (2) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-2
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/indiantreepix/pAcb_GQuLTE>
>>>>>>>> Lindernia crustacea (L.) F.Muel collected from Kamrup district
>>>>>>>> (Metro), Assam
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/KU3HUbO0DnM>
>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: Lindernia crustacea from Kaithal- NS 29
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/lSYABMJR-XI>
>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: a guest on Lindernia crustacea (L.)
>>>>>>>> F.Muell. : sk03
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/aobL5G85kmA>
>>>>>>>> PM1 22-09-2017 Id confirmation from chandigarh. Is it Lindernia
>>>>>>>> crustacea?
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/z5RCCxai7Uc>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Torenia thouarsii (Cham. & Schltdl.) Kuntze (accepted name) ??
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/zMNeXJM7Bdc>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for id. request. BRS 522
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/indiantreepix/eWWg23fxCqM>
>>>>>>>> Torenia crustacea (L.) Cham. & Schltdl.
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/PAKGAtwmPGI>
>>>>>>>> Validation of Lindernia
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/umPk1Q5X8-8>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Herb for ID from Jim-Corbett Uttarakhand-GS10032022-2
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/anOKvYwqBec>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In view of the above observations, I feel, we follow the broader
>>>>>>>> circumspection with all these observations as Lindernia crustacea
>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> (as we
>>>>>>>> are following now).
>>>>>>>> In view Dinesh ji's plant and other similar observations from
>>>>>>>> Western Ghats may also be retained as Lindernia crustacea
>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> only.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Oct 2022 at 22:00, Tabish <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just to point out that POWO treats* Torenia godefroyi* and*
>>>>>>>>> Torenia lindernioides *as distinct species, with *Torenia
>>>>>>>>> godefroyi* confied to Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, and *Torenia
>>>>>>>>> lindernioides *confined to the Western Ghats.
>>>>>>>>> Tabish
>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net
>>>>>>>>> The waterhole of flower lovers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 11:35 AM J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think Sunoj ji may finally resolve this issue being an author
>>>>>>>>>> of 'Re-establishment of the overlooked species Torenia godefroyi
>>>>>>>>>> (Linderniaceae), and notes on the identity of T. lindernioides
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312558634_Re-establishment_of_the_overlooked_species_Torenia_godefroyi_Linderniaceae_and_notes_on_the_identity_of_T_lindernioides>'
>>>>>>>>>> (I am unable to get a hand on it from the net)
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot, Tabish ji, for the inputs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>>>>>>> From: Tabish <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2022 at 09:29
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [efloraofindia:434054] Re: Scrophulariaceae fortnight ::
>>>>>>>>>> Lindernia crustacea at Andheri :: DV06
>>>>>>>>>> To: eFloraofIndia <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This plant, with distinctly winged calyx, should be *Torenia
>>>>>>>>>> lindernioides* which is endemic to Western Ghats. Please have a
>>>>>>>>>> look at the attached paper. It is closely similar to *Torenia
>>>>>>>>>> crustacea* (Syn: *Lindernia crustacea*) which has unwinged calyx.
>>>>>>>>>> According to the paper:
>>>>>>>>>> "Torenia lindernioides has a distinctly winged calyx which
>>>>>>>>>> completely encloses the mature capsule. The capsule is elongated,
>>>>>>>>>> lelliptic
>>>>>>>>>> in outline and narrowed at the top. Lindernia crustacea, however, has
>>>>>>>>>> sepals that are, at most, slightly thickened in the middle and never
>>>>>>>>>> invest
>>>>>>>>>> the capsule completely."
>>>>>>>>>> Tabish
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, August 16, 2013 at 5:12:18 AM UTC+5:30 Dinesh Valke
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae fortnight
>>>>>>>>>>> dog flower family
>>>>>>>>>>> *Lindernia crustacea* (L.) F. Muell. ... also placed in:
>>>>>>>>>>> Linderniaceae Plantaginaceae Veronicaceae
>>>>>>>>>>> at MIDC Andheri on 24 AUG 07
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Urikusa (in Japanese)]
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdinesh_valke%2F1224907860%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzc7DxIHJEZQx1njUX_pZEE1_tb5uA>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Fua Lanumoana (in Samoan)]
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdinesh_valke%2F1224061657%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzdyHN9liuka8KQKrl3l8qM__GKBrg>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards.
>>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected].
>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/373ac98b-df9a-4a8f-8799-d45ab3d6eb4bn%40googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/373ac98b-df9a-4a8f-8799-d45ab3d6eb4bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> With regards,
>>>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> With regards,
>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> With regards,
>>> J.M.Garg
>>>
>>
>
> --
> With regards,
> J.M.Garg
>
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