-- With regards, J. M. Garg ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: J.M. Garg <[email protected]> Date: Sun, 9 Oct, 2022, 9:09 am Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:434054] Re: Scrophulariaceae fortnight :: Lindernia crustacea at Andheri :: DV06 To: Dinesh Valke <[email protected]>
It can be seen in two publications. But I have doubts, if this will stand scrutiny of time. If somebody does the revision of Torenia, these will at most be treated as a variety of T.crustacea. -- With regards, J. M. Garg On Sun, 9 Oct, 2022, 8:45 am Dinesh Valke, <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Garg ji. Now let us hope someone get photo(s) of *Torenia > godefroyi*. > Regards. > Dinesh > > On Sun, 9 Oct 2022, 06:38 J.M. Garg, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I feel along with calyx, fruiting calyx completely covering the capsule >> in *Torenia godefroyi* is very important. It is very very difficult to >> judge only based on winged calyx. >> -- >> With regards, >> J. M. Garg >> >> On Sat, 8 Oct, 2022, 9:05 pm Tabish, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Let me summarize my view here: >>> >>> - Saldanha (1966) named *Torenia lindernioides* which, according >>> to his paper, is endemic to the Western Ghats, and differs from *Torenia >>> crustacea* in having a prominently winged calyx. >>> - Prasad, Roy, Sunojkumar (2017) re-established *Torenia godefroyi,* >>> and put *Torenia lindernioides* as its synonym. *Torenia godefroyi* >>> was separated from *Torenia crustacea* in having a prominently >>> winged calyx, among other characters. *Torenia godefroyi *was >>> earlier known only from Indo-China region (SE Asia). So, according to >>> this >>> paper, the revised distribution of *Torenia godefroyi* is Indo-China >>> region and Western Ghats. >>> - So my question is, where is this *Torenia godefroyi* from Western >>> Ghats with prominently winged calyx? Don't we have any image of it? Or >>> are >>> we misidentifying some of its images as >>> *Torenia crustacea? * >>> >>> I think some thinking is required on it, instead of this rapid >>> discussion. >>> Tabish >>> ------------------------------------------- >>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net >>> The waterhole of flower lovers >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 8:09 PM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Dinesh ji, >>>> As all has now been identified as Lindernia crustacea >>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/>, it has to >>>> be the same i.e. with the winged calyx. >>>> >>>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 at 19:56, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Garg ji, when I go through photographs posted in SK 3258 24 December >>>>> 2021 <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg> that >>>>> show calyx, they do not seem to me as "distinctly winged" or ribbed. They >>>>> look to me rather as separated sepals. That is how I perceive. >>>>> Regards. >>>>> Dinesh >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 7:23 PM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, Dinesh ji, >>>>>> How do you say "All of the other observations at eFI related to >>>>>> Lindernia crustacea do not have distinctly winged calyx" ? >>>>>> I feel otherwise that most of the observations at eFI related to >>>>>> Lindernia crustacea also have distinctly winged calyx. >>>>>> Pl. see one e.g. SK 3258 24 December 2021 >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 at 19:19, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Tabish, I agree with you on the distinctly winged calyx, and >>>>>>> therefore rushed to upload my observation in iNaturalist. >>>>>>> But there the suggested ID is not agreed upon. I have given the link >>>>>>> to this discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All of the other observations at eFI related to Lindernia crustacea >>>>>>> do not have distinctly winged calyx and therefore will remain as >>>>>>> Lindernia >>>>>>> crustacea. >>>>>>> I have sent a personal mail to Aaratrik Pal, requesting him to give >>>>>>> his views regarding this discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 7:10 PM Tabish <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Dinesh, >>>>>>>> I think there is some confusion here. T. godefroyi is separated >>>>>>>> from T. crustacea one some characteristics, one of which is the >>>>>>>> distinctly >>>>>>>> winged calyx. I am only saying that this plant should not be T. >>>>>>>> crustacea >>>>>>>> as it shows winged calyx. If T. lindernioides is synonymous with T. >>>>>>>> godefroy, it may be so, I don't know - I don't have any description, >>>>>>>> pics, >>>>>>>> herbarium pics of T. godefroy to compare with. >>>>>>>> Tabish >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net >>>>>>>> The waterhole of flower lovers >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 6:34 PM Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At iNaturalist, I suggested ID of *Torenia lindernioides* >>>>>>>>> C.J.Saldanha for two of my observations: 1) of MIDC Andheri >>>>>>>>> <https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/137952066>, and 2) of Nagla >>>>>>>>> forest <https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/72003993>. >>>>>>>>> Aaratrik Pal, M.Sc., University of North Bengal, Department of >>>>>>>>> Botany disagrees with the ID, and asserts on *Torenia crustacea* >>>>>>>>> (L.) Cham. & Schltdl. >>>>>>>>> He says: >>>>>>>>> "POWO is updating daily, and the above information about *T. >>>>>>>>> godefroyi* have not been updated yet. Both are synonymous and is >>>>>>>>> also distributed in West Bengal." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Aaratrik Pal <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Aaratrik-Pal> >>>>>>>>> has written many articles related to *Torenia* spp. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>> Dinesh. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 2:29 PM Dinesh Valke < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> By now, I have made changes to my notes in flickr. >>>>>>>>>> As far as the characteristic of "distinctly winged calyx" goes, I >>>>>>>>>> can see it in my posted plants. >>>>>>>>>> In the first photo, we do see a capsule in the centre; however >>>>>>>>>> the sepals are not completely enclosing the mature capsule. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In Garg ji's listed posts, the sepals seem to be more blunt than >>>>>>>>>> distinctly winged ... as such would resolve to *Lindernia >>>>>>>>>> crustacea*. I am not good at this assertion. So I hope that >>>>>>>>>> Sunoj ji will provide his comments soon and help resolve the ID. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 11:40 AM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> However, I am not satisfied with the id as *Torenia godefroyi* >>>>>>>>>>> or *Torenia lindernioides *(with restricted range in Western >>>>>>>>>>> Ghats and Cambodia). >>>>>>>>>>> What about other observations from other areas at Lindernia >>>>>>>>>>> crustacea >>>>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> like >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> SK 3258 24 December 2021 >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg> >>>>>>>>>>> Lindernia sp. (1) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-1 >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/indiantreepix/Huo2W3tvDdU> >>>>>>>>>>> Lindernia sp. (2) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-2 >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/indiantreepix/pAcb_GQuLTE> >>>>>>>>>>> Lindernia crustacea (L.) F.Muel collected from Kamrup district >>>>>>>>>>> (Metro), Assam >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/KU3HUbO0DnM> >>>>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: Lindernia crustacea from Kaithal- NS >>>>>>>>>>> 29 >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/lSYABMJR-XI> >>>>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: a guest on Lindernia crustacea (L.) >>>>>>>>>>> F.Muell. : sk03 >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/aobL5G85kmA> >>>>>>>>>>> PM1 22-09-2017 Id confirmation from chandigarh. Is it Lindernia >>>>>>>>>>> crustacea? >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/z5RCCxai7Uc> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Torenia thouarsii (Cham. & Schltdl.) Kuntze (accepted name) ?? >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/zMNeXJM7Bdc> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> for id. request. BRS 522 >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/indiantreepix/eWWg23fxCqM> >>>>>>>>>>> Torenia crustacea (L.) Cham. & Schltdl. >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/PAKGAtwmPGI> >>>>>>>>>>> Validation of Lindernia >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/umPk1Q5X8-8> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Herb for ID from Jim-Corbett Uttarakhand-GS10032022-2 >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/anOKvYwqBec> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In view of the above observations, I feel, we follow the broader >>>>>>>>>>> circumspection with all these observations as Lindernia >>>>>>>>>>> crustacea >>>>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> (as >>>>>>>>>>> we are following now). >>>>>>>>>>> In view Dinesh ji's plant and other similar observations from >>>>>>>>>>> Western Ghats may also be retained as Lindernia crustacea >>>>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> >>>>>>>>>>> only. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Oct 2022 at 22:00, Tabish <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just to point out that POWO treats* Torenia godefroyi* and* >>>>>>>>>>>> Torenia lindernioides *as distinct species, with *Torenia >>>>>>>>>>>> godefroyi* confied to Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, and >>>>>>>>>>>> *Torenia >>>>>>>>>>>> lindernioides *confined to the Western Ghats. >>>>>>>>>>>> Tabish >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net >>>>>>>>>>>> The waterhole of flower lovers >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 11:35 AM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think Sunoj ji may finally resolve this issue being an >>>>>>>>>>>>> author of 'Re-establishment of the overlooked species Torenia >>>>>>>>>>>>> godefroyi (Linderniaceae), and notes on the identity of T. >>>>>>>>>>>>> lindernioides >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312558634_Re-establishment_of_the_overlooked_species_Torenia_godefroyi_Linderniaceae_and_notes_on_the_identity_of_T_lindernioides>' >>>>>>>>>>>>> (I am unable to get a hand on it from the net) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot, Tabish ji, for the inputs. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Tabish <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2022 at 09:29 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [efloraofindia:434054] Re: Scrophulariaceae fortnight >>>>>>>>>>>>> :: Lindernia crustacea at Andheri :: DV06 >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eFloraofIndia <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This plant, with distinctly winged calyx, should be *Torenia >>>>>>>>>>>>> lindernioides* which is endemic to Western Ghats. Please have >>>>>>>>>>>>> a look at the attached paper. It is closely similar to *Torenia >>>>>>>>>>>>> crustacea* (Syn: *Lindernia crustacea*) which has unwinged >>>>>>>>>>>>> calyx. >>>>>>>>>>>>> According to the paper: >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Torenia lindernioides has a distinctly winged calyx which >>>>>>>>>>>>> completely encloses the mature capsule. The capsule is elongated, >>>>>>>>>>>>> lelliptic >>>>>>>>>>>>> in outline and narrowed at the top. Lindernia crustacea, however, >>>>>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>>>>>> sepals that are, at most, slightly thickened in the middle and >>>>>>>>>>>>> never invest >>>>>>>>>>>>> the capsule completely." >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tabish >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, August 16, 2013 at 5:12:18 AM UTC+5:30 Dinesh Valke >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae fortnight >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog flower family >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lindernia crustacea* (L.) F. Muell. ... also placed in: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linderniaceae Plantaginaceae Veronicaceae >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at MIDC Andheri on 24 AUG 07 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Urikusa (in Japanese)] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdinesh_valke%2F1224907860%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzc7DxIHJEZQx1njUX_pZEE1_tb5uA> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Fua Lanumoana (in Samoan)] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdinesh_valke%2F1224061657%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzdyHN9liuka8KQKrl3l8qM__GKBrg> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/373ac98b-df9a-4a8f-8799-d45ab3d6eb4bn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/373ac98b-df9a-4a8f-8799-d45ab3d6eb4bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> With regards, >>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> With regards, >>>> J.M.Garg >>>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. 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