Here is a photograph of T. godefroyi with fruits and flowers. Torenia godefroyi on February 14, 2022 at 07:24 PM by Aaratrik Pal ยท iNaturalist <https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/138114748> Thanks, Aaratrik
On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 9:09:47 AM UTC+5:30 JM Garg wrote: > > > -- > With regards, > J. M. Garg > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > Date: Sun, 9 Oct, 2022, 9:09 am > Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:434054] Re: Scrophulariaceae fortnight :: > Lindernia crustacea at Andheri :: DV06 > To: Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> > > > It can be seen in two publications. But I have doubts, if this will stand > scrutiny of time. If somebody does the revision of Torenia, these will at > most be treated as a variety of T.crustacea. > > -- > With regards, > J. M. Garg > > On Sun, 9 Oct, 2022, 8:45 am Dinesh Valke, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Thanks Garg ji. Now let us hope someone get photo(s) of *Torenia >> godefroyi*. >> Regards. >> Dinesh >> > >> On Sun, 9 Oct 2022, 06:38 J.M. Garg, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I feel along with calyx, fruiting calyx completely covering the capsule >>> in *Torenia godefroyi* is very important. It is very very difficult to >>> judge only based on winged calyx. >>> -- >>> With regards, >>> J. M. Garg >>> >>> On Sat, 8 Oct, 2022, 9:05 pm Tabish, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Let me summarize my view here: >>>> >>>> - Saldanha (1966) named *Torenia lindernioides* which, according >>>> to his paper, is endemic to the Western Ghats, and differs from >>>> *Torenia >>>> crustacea* in having a prominently winged calyx. >>>> - Prasad, Roy, Sunojkumar (2017) re-established *Torenia >>>> godefroyi,* and put *Torenia lindernioides* as its synonym. *Torenia >>>> godefroyi* was separated from *Torenia crustacea* in having a >>>> prominently winged calyx, among other characters. *Torenia >>>> godefroyi *was earlier known only from Indo-China region (SE Asia). >>>> So, according to this paper, the revised distribution of *Torenia >>>> godefroyi* is Indo-China region and Western Ghats. >>>> - So my question is, where is this *Torenia godefroyi* from Western >>>> Ghats with prominently winged calyx? Don't we have any image of it? Or >>>> are >>>> we misidentifying some of its images as >>>> *Torenia crustacea? * >>>> >>>> I think some thinking is required on it, instead of this rapid >>>> discussion. >>>> Tabish >>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net >>>> The waterhole of flower lovers >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 8:09 PM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, Dinesh ji, >>>>> As all has now been identified as Lindernia crustacea >>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/>, it has >>>>> to be the same i.e. with the winged calyx. >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 at 19:56, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Garg ji, when I go through photographs posted in SK 3258 24 >>>>>> December 2021 >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg> that show >>>>>> calyx, they do not seem to me as "distinctly winged" or ribbed. They >>>>>> look >>>>>> to me rather as separated sepals. That is how I perceive. >>>>>> Regards. >>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 7:23 PM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, Dinesh ji, >>>>>>> How do you say "All of the other observations at eFI related to >>>>>>> Lindernia crustacea do not have distinctly winged calyx" ? >>>>>>> I feel otherwise that most of the observations at eFI related to >>>>>>> Lindernia crustacea also have distinctly winged calyx. >>>>>>> Pl. see one e.g. SK 3258 24 December 2021 >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, 8 Oct 2022 at 19:19, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Tabish, I agree with you on the distinctly winged calyx, and >>>>>>>> therefore rushed to upload my observation in iNaturalist. >>>>>>>> But there the suggested ID is not agreed upon. I have given the >>>>>>>> link to this discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All of the other observations at eFI related to Lindernia crustacea >>>>>>>> do not have distinctly winged calyx and therefore will remain as >>>>>>>> Lindernia >>>>>>>> crustacea. >>>>>>>> I have sent a personal mail to Aaratrik Pal, requesting him to give >>>>>>>> his views regarding this discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 7:10 PM Tabish <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Dinesh, >>>>>>>>> I think there is some confusion here. T. godefroyi is separated >>>>>>>>> from T. crustacea one some characteristics, one of which is the >>>>>>>>> distinctly >>>>>>>>> winged calyx. I am only saying that this plant should not be T. >>>>>>>>> crustacea >>>>>>>>> as it shows winged calyx. If T. lindernioides is synonymous with T. >>>>>>>>> godefroy, it may be so, I don't know - I don't have any description, >>>>>>>>> pics, >>>>>>>>> herbarium pics of T. godefroy to compare with. >>>>>>>>> Tabish >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net >>>>>>>>> The waterhole of flower lovers >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 6:34 PM Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At iNaturalist, I suggested ID of *Torenia lindernioides* >>>>>>>>>> C.J.Saldanha for two of my observations: 1) of MIDC Andheri >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/137952066>, and 2) of >>>>>>>>>> Nagla >>>>>>>>>> forest <https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/72003993>. >>>>>>>>>> Aaratrik Pal, M.Sc., University of North Bengal, Department of >>>>>>>>>> Botany disagrees with the ID, and asserts on *Torenia crustacea* >>>>>>>>>> (L.) Cham. & Schltdl. >>>>>>>>>> He says: >>>>>>>>>> "POWO is updating daily, and the above information about *T. >>>>>>>>>> godefroyi* have not been updated yet. Both are synonymous and is >>>>>>>>>> also distributed in West Bengal." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Aaratrik Pal <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Aaratrik-Pal> >>>>>>>>>> has written many articles related to *Torenia* spp. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>>> Dinesh. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 2:29 PM Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> By now, I have made changes to my notes in flickr. >>>>>>>>>>> As far as the characteristic of "distinctly winged calyx" goes, >>>>>>>>>>> I can see it in my posted plants. >>>>>>>>>>> In the first photo, we do see a capsule in the centre; however >>>>>>>>>>> the sepals are not completely enclosing the mature capsule. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In Garg ji's listed posts, the sepals seem to be more blunt than >>>>>>>>>>> distinctly winged ... as such would resolve to *Lindernia >>>>>>>>>>> crustacea*. I am not good at this assertion. So I hope that >>>>>>>>>>> Sunoj ji will provide his comments soon and help resolve the ID. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 11:40 AM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> However, I am not satisfied with the id as *Torenia godefroyi* >>>>>>>>>>>> or *Torenia lindernioides *(with restricted range in Western >>>>>>>>>>>> Ghats and Cambodia). >>>>>>>>>>>> What about other observations from other areas at Lindernia >>>>>>>>>>>> crustacea >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> like >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> SK 3258 24 December 2021 >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/xoQAkxPsgTg> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lindernia sp. (1) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-1 >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/indiantreepix/Huo2W3tvDdU> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lindernia sp. (2) from Hooghly 15/8/12 SK-2 >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/indiantreepix/pAcb_GQuLTE> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lindernia crustacea (L.) F.Muel collected from Kamrup district >>>>>>>>>>>> (Metro), Assam >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/KU3HUbO0DnM> >>>>>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: Lindernia crustacea from Kaithal- >>>>>>>>>>>> NS 29 >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/lSYABMJR-XI> >>>>>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae Fortnight: a guest on Lindernia crustacea (L.) >>>>>>>>>>>> F.Muell. : sk03 >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/aobL5G85kmA> >>>>>>>>>>>> PM1 22-09-2017 Id confirmation from chandigarh. Is it Lindernia >>>>>>>>>>>> crustacea? >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/z5RCCxai7Uc> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Torenia thouarsii (Cham. & Schltdl.) Kuntze (accepted name) ?? >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/zMNeXJM7Bdc> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for id. request. BRS 522 >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/indiantreepix/eWWg23fxCqM> >>>>>>>>>>>> Torenia crustacea (L.) Cham. & Schltdl. >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/PAKGAtwmPGI> >>>>>>>>>>>> Validation of Lindernia >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/umPk1Q5X8-8> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Herb for ID from Jim-Corbett Uttarakhand-GS10032022-2 >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/indiantreepix/c/anOKvYwqBec> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In view of the above observations, I feel, we follow the >>>>>>>>>>>> broader circumspection with all these observations as Lindernia >>>>>>>>>>>> crustacea >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> (as >>>>>>>>>>>> we are following now). >>>>>>>>>>>> In view Dinesh ji's plant and other similar observations from >>>>>>>>>>>> Western Ghats may also be retained as Lindernia crustacea >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://efloraofindia.com/2011/03/12/lindernia-crustacea/> >>>>>>>>>>>> only. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Oct 2022 at 22:00, Tabish <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just to point out that POWO treats* Torenia godefroyi* and* >>>>>>>>>>>>> Torenia lindernioides *as distinct species, with *Torenia >>>>>>>>>>>>> godefroyi* confied to Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Torenia >>>>>>>>>>>>> lindernioides *confined to the Western Ghats. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tabish >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net>www.flowersofindia.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> The waterhole of flower lovers >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 11:35 AM J.M. Garg <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think Sunoj ji may finally resolve this issue being an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> author of 'Re-establishment of the overlooked species >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Torenia godefroyi (Linderniaceae), and notes on the identity of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> T. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lindernioides >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312558634_Re-establishment_of_the_overlooked_species_Torenia_godefroyi_Linderniaceae_and_notes_on_the_identity_of_T_lindernioides>' >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I am unable to get a hand on it from the net) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot, Tabish ji, for the inputs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Tabish <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2022 at 09:29 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [efloraofindia:434054] Re: Scrophulariaceae >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fortnight :: Lindernia crustacea at Andheri :: DV06 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: eFloraofIndia <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This plant, with distinctly winged calyx, should be *Torenia >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lindernioides* which is endemic to Western Ghats. Please >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a look at the attached paper. It is closely similar to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Torenia >>>>>>>>>>>>>> crustacea* (Syn: *Lindernia crustacea*) which has unwinged >>>>>>>>>>>>>> calyx. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to the paper: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Torenia lindernioides has a distinctly winged calyx which >>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely encloses the mature capsule. The capsule is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> elongated, lelliptic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in outline and narrowed at the top. Lindernia crustacea, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> however, has >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sepals that are, at most, slightly thickened in the middle and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> never invest >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the capsule completely." >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tabish >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, August 16, 2013 at 5:12:18 AM UTC+5:30 Dinesh >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valke wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scrophulariaceae fortnight >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog flower family >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lindernia crustacea* (L.) F. Muell. ... also placed in: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linderniaceae Plantaginaceae Veronicaceae >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at MIDC Andheri on 24 AUG 07 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Urikusa (in Japanese)] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdinesh_valke%2F1224907860%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzc7DxIHJEZQx1njUX_pZEE1_tb5uA> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Fua Lanumoana (in Samoan)] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fdinesh_valke%2F1224061657%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFrqEzdyHN9liuka8KQKrl3l8qM__GKBrg> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dinesh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/373ac98b-df9a-4a8f-8799-d45ab3d6eb4bn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/373ac98b-df9a-4a8f-8799-d45ab3d6eb4bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> With regards, >>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>> >>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "eFloraofIndia" group. 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