So every one knows - I have done paid work for Altium. If you think that colours my view so be it - in fact it may very well colour my view but I try to keep pretty factual. I miss often enough I am sure.

On 04:41 AM 31/05/2004, edsi said:
Ian wrote
The question then comes up is what is the learning time to become proficient? Are you better off putting that to learning another application altogether? That is the really hard decision - much harder than whether the old globals are better or worse or slower or faster than
the new.

Your call. I have said all along that there is a big learning curve to queries. I am always interested in complete un-biassed comparisons. I am not in a position to give one. I read with interest everything John Ross has to say on the matter. I don't know many others with such depth of cross-program experience.

You have to be kidding me Ian, I wish you would quit defending complicated querries over simple double clicks. I really dont think you have used DXP 2004 for more than a few evaluations. Certainly not for an entire design.

Oh ... OK. I have been told I don't use it and not for a full design. Must be imagining it :-). Doesn't deserve a fuller response.

The program is slow,lame, and full of bugs from the minute you load a netlist to the last minute you generate gerbers. (Popping up Camtastick every time I dont want it to, and get this, Protel did away with the much needed CAM manager.

The CAM Manager is better in DXP/P2004 isn't it? Have you not bothered to find out about it? Have you asked? Of course it now has a different name and a interface, it is now decoupled from the PCB and part of the project. (Why so many changes like this I don't know.) I assume you have investigated Output Job Files. Did you find them inadequate? How? I am interested - so would every other P2004 user I am sure. They could possibly benefit from your ideas and suggestions. I guess strictly it is true that CAM Manager was done away with. You did not mention that there was a replacement.

As for Camtatstic popping up all the time after generating gerbers - this can be stopped if the design is part of a project not a free document. In Mike's case this is apparently difficult due to the nature of how he has to work. There is a way of making an external netlist a member of a project but I gather from some previous traffic that this doesn't work for Mike. This comment is really just to say that the problem of Camtatstic opening after Gerbers have been generated can be disabled by most people using the suite. It beats me why there is not a simple user option to prevent it for free documents as well.

I swear you have not used this program, there is now way you could possibly praise how screwed up the non- alphabetical outputs are.

Rather silly thing to say it seems to me. I don't praise any bugs. Where have I said that non-alpha sorting is good? I would very much like to know? I report bugs and suggestions, if not daily, then close to it. Do you report bugs or do you just stew?

It really is a joke. I have customers sitting on 23 seats now, they refuse to use because they cant take the time to retrain their engineers to use a bugged program. I personally use 2004 as an expensive translation package, beyond that I might as well switch to PCAD or PADS. It is real crap after 99SE even with out querries.

Actually P99SE had queries of a sort - the Query Manager on the Edit menu. It wasn't used much though as there were other acceptably fast ways of doing stuff - mainly because of the way selection was a more persistent attribute that in DXP/P2004, I think. In the time it took to construct the query most people could build up the selection they wanted using multiple globals one after the other. Which says something. Maybe Altium could well have researched before releasing DXP?

Mike - I am still waiting on that netlist you said you would sent so I could investigate that problem you were having.

I will try not to respond and more,

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