[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Yes, the G-15 was definitely a digital computer, but I'm not aware that it had any "add-on analog element," at least not any that was a standard Bendix product. There was a differential analyzer, the DA-1, that attached to the G-15 and used some of its drum memory lines for storage, but it was a digital differential analyzer, not an analog one. There was a connector on the back of the G-15 cabinet to which a user could attach data collection equipment, but this, too, was digital -- the external signals were made available in a one-word "Input Register" the G-15 could enable, disable, and read, but any A-to-D had to be done by the external interface to the system. As to the G-15 being a personal computer, I think it was pretty much in the same league as the LGP-30 in that respect. They had similar electrical and floor-space requirements, and their costs were not all the different, either. It was definitely a single-user system, and my impression is that the G-15 was typically operated by the people programming it. Its design was not conducive to closed-shop operations. There was at least one person who used a G-15 as their personal computer -- Harry Huskey, the designer. Apparently the deal he made with Bendix to do the design included him receiving a G-15 for his personal use.
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
It's helping arrange content and tempo, so it's been good for that (and why it is still a "draft"). We'll try to get it read (but no sound studio, so then you end up with dog barks, lawn mowers, and airplanes in the background haha).I don't think I can do attachments here, but could post the "script" instead. On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:28 PM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 10 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > > A revised TAKE #10 version of the video is here to clean up some aspects > > (some notes in the Description; still DRAFT and unlisted) > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eaolOAcvmg > > > > The speech synthesis basically wrecks it for me, sorry. > > g. > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Fri, 10 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: A revised TAKE #10 version of the video is here to clean up some aspects (some notes in the Description; still DRAFT and unlisted) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eaolOAcvmg The speech synthesis basically wrecks it for me, sorry. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
A revised TAKE #10 version of the video is here to clean up some aspects
(some notes in the Description; still DRAFT and unlisted)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eaolOAcvmg
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 1:39 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
wrote:
> Most important of all, for the video,
> your daughter should decide what parameters matter to her!
>
>
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Sellam,
> >
> >> It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition
> of
> >> "personal computer".
> >
> > One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on
> > how it is originally financed.
> >
> > If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then
> > it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush."
> > Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and
> > whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to
> decide
> > what to do with it and who is authorized to use it.
> >
> > Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd
> > hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could
> > coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original
> context
> > on how the system came to exist stands.
> >
> > Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it
> > is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage
> > putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily
> > mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small
> furniture
> > or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right.
> >
> >
> > A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not
> > just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable
> > product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or
> > obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it
> repeatable,
> > if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom
> > builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it")
> but
> > (to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but
> > the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer
> > product).
> >
> >
> > -Steve
>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I just ordered your book from Amazon. I am looking forward to reading it. Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 9, 2023, at 2:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > On Mar 9, 2023, at 5:20 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk > wrote: >>> A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a >>> book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is >>> playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associated >>> with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or >>> something else. > > On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Sure, although that can get fuzzy. A 4004 microcomputer needs multiple >> chips. Conversely, I don't think DEC would call an 11/83 a microcomputer >> even though it uses a single chip (J-11) CPU. Ditto the various small VAXen. > > ALL attempts at dividing lines will have exceptions. > > I remember when there were attempts to draw the lines based on how much > memory each had. But, times change, and my phone is still not a mainframe. > > > BIG / BIGGER / BIGGEST > > Lose: > screw / screwdriver / scope (or technician) > > pick it up / handtruck / forklift and union moving crew > > delivery: > trunk of your car / delivery truck / moving vanS > > desk / room / building > > week's pay / year's pay / financing. > > sales clerk / visiting salesman / department presentations > > extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer > > sane / eccentric / raving lunatic > > SO is: > annoyed / furious / long gone > > . . . > >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Mar 9, 2023, at 5:20 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associated with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or something else. On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: Sure, although that can get fuzzy. A 4004 microcomputer needs multiple chips. Conversely, I don't think DEC would call an 11/83 a microcomputer even though it uses a single chip (J-11) CPU. Ditto the various small VAXen. ALL attempts at dividing lines will have exceptions. I remember when there were attempts to draw the lines based on how much memory each had. But, times change, and my phone is still not a mainframe. BIG / BIGGER / BIGGEST Lose: screw / screwdriver / scope (or technician) pick it up / handtruck / forklift and union moving crew delivery: trunk of your car / delivery truck / moving vanS desk / room / building week's pay / year's pay / financing. sales clerk / visiting salesman / department presentations extension cord / dedicated circuit / dedicated pole transformer sane / eccentric / raving lunatic SO is: annoyed / furious / long gone . . .
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On Mar 9, 2023, at 5:20 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk > wrote: > > A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a > book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is > playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associated > with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or > something else. Sure, although that can get fuzzy. A 4004 microcomputer needs multiple chips. Conversely, I don't think DEC would call an 11/83 a microcomputer even though it uses a single chip (J-11) CPU. Ditto the various small VAXen. paul
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
A lot has been written about the origins of the microcomputer. I wrote a book on the topic. Many thanks for mentioning Canada. Whether one is playing games or doing something else micro-computing is usually associated with a microprocessor as CPU. Anything earlier is a minicomputer or something else. Yet this is not the point of the video. Let’s enjoy what has been created and give encouragement to the creators. Kudos to them. Murray
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Well thanks to ya'll prodding - I've brought it up to her again, and she
actually said "hmm, alright, maybe" ! Next week happens to be our spring
break - so. we might give it a shot !
So probably no final rendering this weekend - but hopefully by the end of
the month.
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 1:39 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
wrote:
> Most important of all, for the video,
> your daughter should decide what parameters matter to her!
>
>
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Sellam,
> >
> >> It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition
> of
> >> "personal computer".
> >
> > One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on
> > how it is originally financed.
> >
> > If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then
> > it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush."
> > Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and
> > whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to
> decide
> > what to do with it and who is authorized to use it.
> >
> > Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd
> > hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could
> > coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original
> context
> > on how the system came to exist stands.
> >
> > Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it
> > is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage
> > putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily
> > mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small
> furniture
> > or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right.
> >
> >
> > A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not
> > just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable
> > product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or
> > obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it
> repeatable,
> > if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom
> > builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it")
> but
> > (to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but
> > the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer
> > product).
> >
> >
> > -Steve
>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Most important of all, for the video,
your daughter should decide what parameters matter to her!
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
Sellam,
It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of
"personal computer".
One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on
how it is originally financed.
If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then
it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush."
Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and
whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to decide
what to do with it and who is authorized to use it.
Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd
hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could
coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original context
on how the system came to exist stands.
Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it
is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage
putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily
mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small furniture
or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right.
A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not
just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable
product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or
obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it repeatable,
if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom
builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") but
(to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but
the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer
product).
-Steve
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not
just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable
product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or
obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it repeatable,
if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom
builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") but
(to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but
the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer
product).
Tony Cole had a hobby/business of parting out decommissioned Crays.
He also had a business ("VIPC"), assembling generic 5160 clones.
At one time, he decided to build "the ultimate personal computer".
He used a tower server case, which he had gold plated ("for RF shielding"
:-)
Top of the line AT motherboard, drives, video, etc.
He and his "ultimate personal computer" made it onto the cover of many of
the computer magazines. Which was incredibly great advertising for his
generic clone business, and his Cray spare parts and souvenir business.
Price and size of a personal computer depend on what you can afford, and
how much room you have.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of
"personal computer".
Somehow I feel like this debate has been had before. Probably here.
Probably several times.
Sellam
It is a permanent topic.
Along with "First".
("proposed"/"designed"/"prototyped"/"announced"/"demonstrated"/"offered
for sale"/"sold"/"delivered"/"retail availability without
pre-order/waitlist")
IBM PC/5150 was announced/released August 11, 1981. But, it was many
months before I could take one home.
I was able to take home a TRS80 first, but some other people were able to
take home Apple first. (I insist that TRS80/PET/Apple2 was a TIE)
It would help to clarify a bit of basic elements.
ANY computer can be considered to be a personal computer. A pile of stones
to use as an abacus is a personal computer. Marked sticks to use as a
slide rule are a personal computer. When I first took the SATs, we were
told "NO sliderules", but to bring our own scratch paper, including graph
paper! What do you get when you slide two pieces of log graph paper past
each other? The next time, they changed the rules, and they supplied the
scratch paper, but still required the test takers to bring multiple #2
pencils, and didn't rule out pencils with a log scale down the side.
Operated by single person is kinda arbitrary. Lots of people have "Geek
Squad" set up their "personal computer", or have company IT people
maintain it, and untangle user induced problems.
I had a blind student, who sometimes got other people to help read the
portions of the screen that the Votrax choked on.
Some personal computers have more than one screen (great for
progtramming).
I've seen some with more than one keyboard. If two, or more people play a
game on one, does that make it no longer a "personal" computer?
In Fabrice Florin's Nova documentary, "Hackers : Wizards Of The Electronic
Age", there is a scene of consensus joysticks.
Size? Price? Weight? arbitrary.
A Cray is a personal computer.
If you were a billionaire, might you have one as a personal computer?
The probability of my having serious money has kept me from fantasizing
what I would have.
Some people try to insert the word "reasonable".
"The reasonable man adapts to the world; the unreasonable man tries to
adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the
unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
Would it work to limit it to machines that were designed, manufactured,
and marketed for the purpose of being one?
That invokes "intent".
Therefore, ALL computers are personal computers.
Whether a computer is a "HOME computer" involves where and how would you
want to live? Do we count the one that the Vogons destroyed, that the
mice had commissioned Magrathea to build?
We did eventually come up with definitions of
microcomputer/minicomputer/mainframe.
"Can you pick it up"/"handtruck"/"union moving crew"
"lose a screw in it"/"lose a screwdriver in it"/"lose a scope or a
technician"
(size/price/weight/architecture all have exceptions)
So, maybe there is still hope for a definition.
"Would you refuse others access to it?"/"only those you want to
impress"/"Only family members"/"Only close friends, or those you want to
have sex with"
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Sellam,
> It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of
> "personal computer".
One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on
how it is originally financed.
If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then
it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush."
Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and
whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to decide
what to do with it and who is authorized to use it.
Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd
hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could
coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original context
on how the system came to exist stands.
Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it
is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage
putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily
mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small furniture
or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right.
A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not
just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable
product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or
obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it repeatable,
if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom
builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") but
(to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but
the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer
product).
-Steve
>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 2023-03-09 10:31 a.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: No doubt it was capable of being operated by a single user, but that to me does not make it a personal computer. The LGP-30 was used in schools and offices not targeted for industrial use. There is really no reason why any computer could not be a personal computer, if you know everything about it and use independently and operate for personal use. It's really impossible to claim any computer was the "first personal computer", but I like the LGP-30 as one of the first. I bet someone used the BENDIX for fun once in a while, too. BIll Quit changing the rules, BIG COMPUTERS make a great home computer. The cpu has been repainted and makes a lovely walk in kitchen. The power supplies make both a up stairs and down stairs bathroom. Three 4K single core bed rooms and master 8K bed room with extra big Cache. ... and FREE air conditioning, Coming soon to a DUMPSTER near you. I think the IBM-1130 would be the only vintage computer that be a the first personal computer, as It came with BASIC,FORTRAN IV and APL. Ben.
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
It seems to come down to agreement (or lack thereof) on the definition of "personal computer". Somehow I feel like this debate has been had before. Probably here. Probably several times. Sellam On Thu, Mar 9, 2023, 9:31 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > John, > > > I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that > the > > > G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal > McBee > > > LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so > > it's > > > a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of > > personal > > > computing, but I never read about them that way > > > > There was an add-on analog element, (I've never seen one), > > but the G-15 was definitely a digital machine with drum > > memory and serial arithmetic. It was used a LOT by highway > > departments to plan "cut and fill" highway building > > projects. The difference may have been due to marketing > > people, but my understanding was that the G-15 was often > > used by one operator, and not shared like a corporate mainframe. > > > > Jon > > > > > No doubt it was capable of being operated by a single user, but that to me > does not make it a personal computer. The LGP-30 was used in schools and > offices not targeted for industrial use. There is really no reason why any > computer could not be a personal computer, if you know everything about it > and use independently and operate for personal use. It's really impossible > to claim any computer was the "first personal computer", but I like the > LGP-30 as one of the first. I bet someone used the BENDIX for fun once in > a while, too. > BIll >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> > > > > John, > > I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that the > > G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal McBee > > LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so > it's > > a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of > personal > > computing, but I never read about them that way > > There was an add-on analog element, (I've never seen one), > but the G-15 was definitely a digital machine with drum > memory and serial arithmetic. It was used a LOT by highway > departments to plan "cut and fill" highway building > projects. The difference may have been due to marketing > people, but my understanding was that the G-15 was often > used by one operator, and not shared like a corporate mainframe. > > Jon > > No doubt it was capable of being operated by a single user, but that to me does not make it a personal computer. The LGP-30 was used in schools and offices not targeted for industrial use. There is really no reason why any computer could not be a personal computer, if you know everything about it and use independently and operate for personal use. It's really impossible to claim any computer was the "first personal computer", but I like the LGP-30 as one of the first. I bet someone used the BENDIX for fun once in a while, too. BIll
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/23 20:01, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 6:46 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: On 3/8/23 14:31, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic computer that one person could operate. The Bendix G-15 also fits that description. Jon John, I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that the G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal McBee LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so it's a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of personal computing, but I never read about them that way There was an add-on analog element, (I've never seen one), but the G-15 was definitely a digital machine with drum memory and serial arithmetic. It was used a LOT by highway departments to plan "cut and fill" highway building projects. The difference may have been due to marketing people, but my understanding was that the G-15 was often used by one operator, and not shared like a corporate mainframe. Jon
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:11 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > If you all are interested a different take on the origins of > personal computing, here's a recording I made for use during > the pandemic of a talk that I give every year to our freshmen > at Drexel University. > > https://1513041.mediaspace.kaltura.com/media/Whence+Came+the+Personal+Computer/1_dq6va75g > > > If you'd like to go back even farther, here's a page I have > on the ENIAC. At the bottom are links to a number of talks > I've given on the subject: > > http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/eniac/ On that sort of history: there's a neat document in the online archives of CWI in Amsterdam, a course syllabus for a course on computer construction given by prof. van Wijngaarden in February of 1948. I just completed an English translation of it, and I'm wondering if there might be a good home for that somewhere (once I proofread it). From the introduction: "The field is new. The Eniac is at the moment the only working machine, while one of these days the Selective Sequence Electronic Calculator from the I.B.M. will be demonstrated." paul
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 2:03 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > :) it makes sense, Sellam, to inform her rather than she telling us, but > again she and others her age are the future. She will do it her way just > like we, at her age, did it our way. Funny: i just remembered a quote from > Goonies - “this is our time” > > > > It is their time > > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > Sounds good until you think about it. b
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On 03/09/2023 1:24 AM CST Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: > > > Thank you all for the notes (and feedback). > > The 1964 skit of Patty Duke using that Univac-422 - all the markings of a > personal computer right there, no doubt. But dragging that into a home > doesn't make it a home computer. As engineers, sure, we're good with that > - I don't even put cases on my computers. Air flow, p, overrated. > Unless the AC cuts out in the summer. > > Steve, I think the video is very good and much needed. You and your daughter deserve kudos for it. When I was watching it I had the urge to do what others have done -- sharpshoot it from my perspective. Then I remembered who the intended audience was and changed my perspective. With that change I realized it was spot on. Would I have done it different? Sure. But that doesn't make mine "right" and yours "wrong." If your video gets ten young(er) people interested they can join some mailing list like this in the future and argue endlessly about which one was "first." So, congratulations to you and your daughter. It's a very nice video. Will
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Grumpy Ol' Fred , On the GENIAC -- thanks for sharing that! It has this "killer app" called "Masculine–Feminine Testing Machine" Brilliant! On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Since we are never going to completely agree on > "First", > "computer", > "home computer", > "home computing", (using a a terminal with a remote computer) > > might I suggest the works of Edmund Berkeley. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniac > https://www.instructables.com/GENIAC-Electric-Brain-Replica/ > > Full text of "Giant Brains, or, Machines That Think" > https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.233530 > https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/68991 > > > OB_tangent: I remember that Jim Warren said "machinew WHO think" > > > On the issue of "first", many authors on the topic have personal > "requirements" for it to be considered. (such as storage, video display, > keyboard, HDD, etc.) "It wasn't REALLY a computer, unless it had ..." In > MOST cases, they will declare the "first" to be one generation before they > got one. CP/M users often choose Altair; People who started in PC will > often pick CP/M; people who started with Windoze might pick DOS, Mac > users declare Apple2, etc. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I had some good sized iron in my home in the early 80's. We (my family - I put up 1/3, my mother covered the other 2/3) got a PET in 1979. I came home from my first Dayton Hamvention in 1982 with a PDP-8. If a high school kid can scrounge a PDP-8 by the early 80s, I'm sure an adult with a real job could have done it a lot earlier. -ethan P.S. - 90% of what ran on that PET was games - commercial ones bought from Creative Computing and Instant Software and others, as well as lots of games typed in from books and magazines (Creative Computing, BYTE, Micro, etc). We didn't have a printer and the only storage was cassette tape, so word processing and other "serious" applications were off the table. I did have some utility firmware - an improved machine language monitor (NMON), which I used to write better games (hand port of Scott Adams' engine from BASIC to 6502 machine code), BASIC Toolkit, and BASIC Aid, used for writing better programs in BASIC. Yes, Bill, arcade games were better, but they cost $0.25 a play and I could play what games we had for hours on the PET. We didn't have an Atari or other home video game console. I also typed in and played several text adventures, something that was not available on a console or in an arcade. I'm not saying that nobody did "engineering work" on a home computer, but by 1980, we sure were playing a lot of games on home computers.
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Thank you all for the notes (and feedback).
The 1964 skit of Patty Duke using that Univac-422 - all the markings of a
personal computer right there, no doubt. But dragging that into a home
doesn't make it a home computer. As engineers, sure, we're good with that
- I don't even put cases on my computers. Air flow, p, overrated.
Unless the AC cuts out in the summer.
The original video title I had was "domesticating the computer." Like
taming wild cats and wolves, and finally bringing them into our homes as
tamed beasts that become our companions. Maybe I should go back to that
title?
Some thoughts:
You can drag something like a LINC or Univac home, but it's still quite a
beast - and you'll be on your own with what is essentially a one-off system
(i.e. for finding parts and tech manuals). Even if they made 1000 of them
at best, that's still rare to find an expert to help with those systems. A
few technical folks could handle that - spending all evening loading some
kind of software, and all weekend replacing tubes. But the typical
consumer won't bother.
One of my favorite references:
https://www.tech-insider.org/personal-computers/research/acrobat/7807.pdf
And here is my summary of that article:
May 5 1966: (Steven B Gray founded Amateur Computer Society)
1966: book "We Built Our Own Computer" by A B Bolt
(not much for 1967 - some CQ magazine kits that were never built)
April 1968: ECHO IV (Jim Sutherland; 8K, 18 instructions, 160 kHz)
(no highlights for 1969/1970 - but CTC/Datapoint was active around this
time on their 3300)
1971: 1000 Minutemen I missile guidance processors became available
in surplus
1971: first "computer kit" (Louis E Frenzel, 15 instructions)
1971: Kenbak-1 (65 instructions, audio cassette storage)
1972: Don Tarbell - editor program and assembler program
early 1972: opening of "several used computer equipment stores" (used as
in surplus)
1972: 8008, TTL price drops, 1101 programmable memory (and the 1702)
1972: Roger Amidon's 4-bit "Spider" (TTL, RTTY, featured in BYTE
April 1977)
Sept. 1972: Hal Chamberline, HAL-4096 (surplus IBM 1620 core, 16-bit system)
Sept. 1972: Electronic Design article, 1024 ASCII chars on a TV set
May 1973: EPD System One kit
Sept. 1973: Don Lancaster TVT-1
Late 1973: Scelbi-8H ($2760 for 16KB, cassette IO, ASCII keyboard, o-scope
output), defunct Dec. 1974
1973: PDP-8A under $900
July 1974: Radio Electronics Jonathan Titus, Mark-8 (est. 500 units built)
Oct. 1974: SwTPC TVT-II kit and ASCII keyboard ($220 total)
April 1975: *first deliveries *of Altair 8800 (kit had no IO, 10k sold by
end of year per MITS)
April 1975: first computer-club meeting (Bob Reiling, Gordon French)
Fall 1975: MITS 4K/8K BASIC interpreters
Fall 1975: SwTPC 6800-based microcomputer
(end of first decade of "amateur computing")
Other notes:
1969: Busicom/Intel contract for printer-calculator ($200 4004)
1971: Datapoint/Intel relationship ($200 8008, interrupt capability), Intel
introduces 1101 and 1702
1972: National Semiconductor introduces IMP-16 ("user definable instruction
set")
1973: Intel 8080 ("still required an external clock and multiple power
supplies", vs 6800 required one TTL power supply)
1975-1976: "3rd gen microprocessors" Z-80, enhanced 8080 (on chip clock),
6502, TMS9900/TMS9980 (16-bit)
1977: "4th gen microprocessors" (actual "microcomputers in a single IC" --
microprocessor, ROM, programmable memory, IO on one chip)
As to opinions from younger folks: one thing I'd like to say is "don't
give up on them." Teenagers may be aloof and not seem interested now - but
don't be overly discouraged. Years later, perhaps even decades, they may
remember something about the experience and come back to it.I think my
Ice Breaker with my daughter was playing 1987 Wheel of Fortune (or maybe
1988) on the IBM PC a couple years ago -- it's "fugly" in CGA but yet
charming in its way. But the real kicker is, my daughter won (virtually)
"5000 lbs of pot" when she won one of the rounds in that version, and we
still laugh about that since it was so unexpected from a "family game from
the 1980s".
-Steve
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:55 PM Will Cooke via cctalk
wrote:
>
>
> > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
>
> > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school
> timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on !
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tarek Hoteit
> >
>
> That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long
> time.
>
> Will
>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
:) it makes sense, Sellam, to inform her rather than she telling us, but again she and others her age are the future. She will do it her way just like we, at her age, did it our way. Funny: i just remembered a quote from Goonies - “this is our time” It is their time Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:22 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55 AM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > >>> On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school >> timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! >>> Regards, >>> Tarek Hoteit >> That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long >> time. >> Will > > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. > > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. > > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? > > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. > > Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
:) it makes sense, Sellam, to inform her rather than she telling us, but again she and others her age are the future. She will do it her way just like we, at her age, did it our way. Funny: i just remembered a quote from Goonies - “this is our time” It is their time Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:22 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55 AM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > >> >>> On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >> >>> We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school >> timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! >>> >>> Regards, >>> Tarek Hoteit >>> >> >> That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long >> time. >> >> Will >> > > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. > > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. > > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? > > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. > > Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 05:24:40AM -0600, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making about > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc Steve, I'll start by echoing what others have said in congratulating you and your daughter on an excellent video. If you all are interested a different take on the origins of personal computing, here's a recording I made for use during the pandemic of a talk that I give every year to our freshmen at Drexel University. https://1513041.mediaspace.kaltura.com/media/Whence+Came+the+Personal+Computer/1_dq6va75g If you'd like to go back even farther, here's a page I have on the ENIAC. At the bottom are links to a number of talks I've given on the subject: http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/eniac/ Again, good job, and I'm very happy to see that your daughter is interested in the history of computing. BLS
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 6:46 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 3/8/23 14:31, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) > > computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A > > relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic > computer > > that one person could operate. > > The Bendix G-15 also fits that description. > > Jon > > John, I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that the G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal McBee LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so it's a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of personal computing, but I never read about them that way. Bill
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/23 14:31, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic computer that one person could operate. The Bendix G-15 also fits that description. Jon
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/23 14:18, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue that the Altair is the first. A very good argument could be made that it was the LINC (1962) ==> https://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/linc/ieee-article.htm At least one of the systems built ended up in the actual home of one of the engineers: quite possibly the first "home" computer. Yes, there is a "famous" picture of a LINC set up at the bottom of the stairs of Mary Allen Wilkes parent's home (Nobody wanted to carry the beast up the stairs...) This was in 1965. She wrote the definitive OS for that machine (LAP6). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Allen_Wilkes Jon
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into a store and buy one without pre-order?) About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into a store and buy one without pre-order?) On Wed, 8 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: I'm sure specific dates are out there, but as far as generally, the Apple ][ and PET were available for actual purchase prior to the TRS-80, and between the Apple ][ and the PET, I believe the former shipped first. LOCALLY, apparently different in other towns, TRS80 was the first one that I could walk into a store in Berkeley/Albany and walk out with one. Also, by supplying my own monitor and cassette player, $398 was by far the cheapest. (I did not say "best") It was easy to find RAM cheaper than the dealer. And, after I had splurged on the Expansion Interface when it came out (bringing the total price back up), It was easy to find cheap drives. A neighbor and I immediately got into building drive cases and power supplies and peddling those, RAM, and minor other odss and ends. (Such as the Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:11 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy > it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. > If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, > or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. > > Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider > them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you > count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into > a store and buy one without pre-order?) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com I'm sure specific dates are out there, but as far as generally, the Apple ][ and PET were available for actual purchase prior to the TRS-80, and between the Apple ][ and the PET, I believe the former shipped first. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:04 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 3/8/2023 2:49 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > > Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's > > and 60's > > > > > > I forgot all about mt GE Analog computer from the late 50's. Still have > > it, it still works even though most of the insulation on the wiring has > > rotted away. I keep meaning to rewire it but never seem to get to it. > > I should, though. I have already showed my grandson how a slide rule > > works. (My collection includes a hanging wall sliderule!!) It might > > prove interesting to show him how you can do the same math on the > > analog computer. > > bill > I was able to score one of those for my collection off eBay not too long ago. They don't come around often (or cheaply, for that matter). Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I got into it from EAM/cards. In 1970, I was working at National Space Sciences Data Center, building 26 at Goddard Space Flight Center. Doing gofer work for a British physicist studying the Van Allen belts, as part of an on-site contract. FORTRAN, APL, Gerber digitizer, and plotters (Calcomp and Stromberg). When I heard about microprocessors, it was obviously inevitable that computers were destined to become small and cheap. I was getting out during a collapse of aerospace, and I opened an auto repair shop for the 1970s. I declared that I would get back into computers when I could afford a table-top computer that could run a high level language, such as FORTRAN. I never said that that would be the first home computer, since I already knew some crazy hobbyists. I merely said that that would be the first one that I would get. About eight years later, I bought a TRS80 for $398. Yes, you could buy it without the video monitor and cassette recorder. If I had a little more spending money, I might have gotten a PET, instead, or, not much later, but more money, an Apple2. Those were absolutely not the first home computer, either. But I consider them TIED with each other as to which was first of that group. (do you count announcement, production, going on sale, or being able to walk into a store and buy one without pre-order?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/2023 2:49 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and 60's I forgot all about mt GE Analog computer from the late 50's. Still have it, it still works even though most of the insulation on the wiring has rotted away. I keep meaning to rewire it but never seem to get to it. I should, though. I have already showed my grandson how a slide rule works. (My collection includes a hanging wall sliderule!!) It might prove interesting to show him how you can do the same math on the analog computer. bill
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
We can ask them by saying “we were at your age and had toys that we loved so much that we still talk about them 40 years or so later. If you have a toy that you want to preserve that for 40 years, what would you do?” Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:43 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > >> Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. >> We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be >> preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered here >> show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, very >> few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I >> can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS >> interested. Can you? >> > > But ask them what exactly? > > Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/2023 3:18 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue that the Altair is the first. A very good argument could be made that it was the LINC (1962) ==> https://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/linc/ieee-article.htm At least one of the systems built ended up in the actual home of one of the engineers: quite possibly the first "home" computer. I think the real argument is: Does it have to be a computer made for home use or just any computer that found it's way into a home. I had some good sized iron in my home in the early 80's. bill
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Technically true. However, if I would reference the book “The Friendly Orange Glow” on the history of Plato, there is a chapter I recall in which the author mentioned someone taking a terminal to their home Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:56 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > >> On 3/8/2023 2:54 PM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: >> I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One >> can argue Plato is one. > > There must be a Plato I don't know about. The one I saw when I was in IT at > > West Point was bigger than a desk. Hardly what would have passed for a home > > computer. (Although it was only a few years later when I had an Apollo in my > > home!! :-) It was almost as big. > > > bill > >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
We can get them excited by thinking like them - videos (narrated by their kind not us) and we are in the background. We play old school games and make fun of the 8bit sounds in front of them. Some might get curious and say “why does this sound like that?” Or “why this graphic looks so different”. Then we begin a short story “once upon a time …” but end it in 10 minute or less. Or, jokes aside, we consult with Steve’s middle schooler cause, honesty, I have not heard of any other person at that age truly interested. Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:46 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > > > >> On 03/08/2023 2:42 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk >> wrote: > So, how do we get them interested? I >>> can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS >>> interested. Can you? >> >> But ask them what exactly? >> >> Sellam > > Some variation of "what is it that makes this interesting to you?"
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 3/8/2023 2:54 PM, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote: I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One can argue Plato is one. There must be a Plato I don't know about. The one I saw when I was in IT at West Point was bigger than a desk. Hardly what would have passed for a home computer. (Although it was only a few years later when I had an Apollo in my home!! :-) It was almost as big. bill
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I'd invite any one here to docent the museum for a day, it will provide a lot of perspective as to the general public view on computer history. I learned quickly you can't fire\hose people, kids in particular with a lot of factoids. Most people just want to walk around and look, they don't need a lesson or want to be told anything. On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:46 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 03/08/2023 2:42 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > So, how do we get them interested? I > > > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > > > interested. Can you? > > > > But ask them what exactly? > > > > Sellam > > Some variation of "what is it that makes this interesting to you?" >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
That is great news. I think these kids saw the 90s as NES (Mario), Sega (Sonic), and their dads playing either Leisure Suite Larry and later Doom on the PC. I think we need to find a way to pull them to this news group, rather than them pulling us to their Discord chats, and then all of us would have to behave with the kids around. :) Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 12:46 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > Running museum (kennettclassic.com) I meet with kids daily who are very > interested in computing history. They all seem to know the Youtubers who > specialize in vintage gaming and computing. These youtube channels are not > always historically accurate but it's a start. Most younger people > gravitate to systems made after 1990. They're not as interested in things > they can't identify with. It's hard to just jump in. Computers are not > like cars. Computers from 50 years ago are fundamentally different. Cars > that are 50 years old can still drive the highways > b > >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. >>> We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be >>> preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered >> here >>> show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, >> very >>> few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I >>> can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS >>> interested. Can you? >>> >> >> But ask them what exactly? >> >> Sellam >>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Running museum (kennettclassic.com) I meet with kids daily who are very interested in computing history. They all seem to know the Youtubers who specialize in vintage gaming and computing. These youtube channels are not always historically accurate but it's a start. Most younger people gravitate to systems made after 1990. They're not as interested in things they can't identify with. It's hard to just jump in. Computers are not like cars. Computers from 50 years ago are fundamentally different. Cars that are 50 years old can still drive the highways b On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. > > We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be > > preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered > here > > show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, > very > > few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I > > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > > interested. Can you? > > > > But ask them what exactly? > > Sellam >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On 03/08/2023 2:42 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: So, how do we get them interested? I > > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > > interested. Can you? > > But ask them what exactly? > > Sellam Some variation of "what is it that makes this interesting to you?"
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:40 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. > We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be > preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered here > show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, very > few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I > can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS > interested. Can you? > But ask them what exactly? Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Since we are never going to completely agree on "First", "computer", "home computer", "home computing", (using a a terminal with a remote computer) might I suggest the works of Edmund Berkeley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniac https://www.instructables.com/GENIAC-Electric-Brain-Replica/ Full text of "Giant Brains, or, Machines That Think" https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.233530 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/68991 OB_tangent: I remember that Jim Warren said "machinew WHO think" On the issue of "first", many authors on the topic have personal "requirements" for it to be considered. (such as storage, video display, keyboard, HDD, etc.) "It wasn't REALLY a computer, unless it had ..." In MOST cases, they will declare the "first" to be one generation before they got one. CP/M users often choose Altair; People who started in PC will often pick CP/M; people who started with Windoze might pick DOS, Mac users declare Apple2, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On 03/08/2023 2:21 PM CST Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55 AM Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > > > > > Regards, > > > Tarek Hoteit > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > > time. > > Will > > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. > > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. > > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? > > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. > > Sellam Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered here show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, very few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS interested. Can you? Will
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On 2023-03-08 2:13 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you should consider mentioning this somehow. Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor installed. A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today. The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. Bill Not to mention people who designed and built their own processors, I recall Byte had them as a feature article in an issue with a memorable front cover picture of a cascade small boards joined by jumper wire flowing to the floor off a table, that was apparently a working computer. Paul.
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic computer that one person could operate. Bill On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:22 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55 AM Will Cooke via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > > > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > > > > > Regards, > > > Tarek Hoteit > > > > > > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > > time. > > > > Will > > > > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. > > We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE > should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her > generation. > > I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the > planet? > > Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to > inherently naive children. > > Sellam >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:55 AM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > > > Regards, > > Tarek Hoteit > > > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > time. > > Will > Huh? That makes less than zero sense. We're already doing what we're doing. She should be asking US what SHE should do to preserve the legacy we've carried on to her and her generation. I mean, is anyone actually serious about asking Greta how to save the planet? Don't abdicate your responsibilities as an experienced adult over to inherently naive children. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Thank you, Bill! When Steve posted the video about the history of computers, I thought something like “cool to see another video” But when he mentioned a middle schooler helping, that changed the entire perspective for me. I am close to 50. I have seen and been part of vintage and classic computing. I still enjoy them and my kids, who are now 19 and 17, have heard me talking a lot about computing. Yet, they had no curiosity on any of those. “It is a dad’s thing”, they would say. Same thing happened with my siblings at a younger age. I am a Gen X. My two siblings are one a Gen X and another a Gen Y. My kids are a Gen Z. No one in my family had any interests. Then I get frustrated when I hear my nieces, nephews or even my kids saying “ChatGpt is so cool” or “TikTok does magic with the videos” or “Instagram has these cool filters.” Yet, they have no clue about everything or anything in tech that led to those creations. I try to bring back the topics of bits, bytes, ram, cpu, inventions in tech. They respond with nothing but a blank-I-am-bored face. None of these younger generation are even curious about the Ataris, the Vectrex, the old machines, or even the legacy books that is on our shelves. Then I see the message from Steve about his middle schooler. That is amazing. That is awesome! I rarely type on this newsgroup or any newsgroup. Steve’s post (and subsequent update) about his middle schooler being curious and is helping with the video has made my day! I hope it did for all other fellow old-timers! Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:55 AM, wrco...@wrcooke.net wrote: > > > >>> On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >> >> We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school >> timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! >> >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit >> > > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long > time. > > Will
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One > can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue > that the Altair is the first. A very good argument could be made that it was the LINC (1962) ==> https://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/linc/ieee-article.htm At least one of the systems built ended up in the actual home of one of the engineers: quite possibly the first "home" computer. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One > can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue > that the Altair is the first. It is unfair to make the author of the video > be 100% perfect because it is too Ha! Are you kidding, Tarek? This is the Classic Computers Mailing List. Pedantic arguments are a mandatory feature here :D > technical / debatable for the video: is it the microprocessor first? Or is > it usage? Home vs, say, the Homebrew club, vs Plato terminals etc. I > personally think that the video is great as is, regardless of the consensus > on what truly is a home computer and what truly its evolution (eg different > books are not even consistent in their story telling). Maybe, this > discussion leads to more videos by Steve and his daughter, or maybe it is > time now that middle schoolers can tell us “what do THEY think is a home or > a personal computer”. > All things considered, I agree that it's a good video. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:49 AM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and > 60's > > > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/restoring-the-heathkit-es-400-computer > > https://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/heath.analog.1956.102646297.pdf > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/May2016_Heathkit_Restoration > > To say nothing of the Digi-Comp 1, the MINIVAC 601/6010, the GENIAC/BRAINIAC, and of course, SIMON (1950-51). Sellam > > On 3/8/2023 1:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, < > dave.g4...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan > Turing > >> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > >> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > >> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 > screen. > >> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > >> He also wrote the "love letters" program. > > Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days > ago about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown > version of the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. > > > > paul > > > >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On 03/08/2023 11:59 AM CST Tarek Hoteit via cctalk > wrote: > > We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school > timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > That statement may be the most important one on this list in a long, long time. Will
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I don’t think there is a strict definition of what a home computer is. One can argue Plato is one. Another might say Atari 2600. Someone can argue that the Altair is the first. It is unfair to make the author of the video be 100% perfect because it is too technical / debatable for the video: is it the microprocessor first? Or is it usage? Home vs, say, the Homebrew club, vs Plato terminals etc. I personally think that the video is great as is, regardless of the consensus on what truly is a home computer and what truly its evolution (eg different books are not even consistent in their story telling). Maybe, this discussion leads to more videos by Steve and his daughter, or maybe it is time now that middle schoolers can tell us “what do THEY think is a home or a personal computer”. Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:44 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > SO - To return to the video feedback - I think the author should comment on > the evolution of what "Home Computing" is/was, the evolution in > demographics of the home computer user, the cost, etc. Needs perspective > Bill > >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM Bill Degnan wrote: >> >> My point was that "home computing" does not equal playing computer games >> at home. That is something that evolved into the early 90's.Games were >> much less of a thing in home computing of the 70's. THere are always >> exceptions, there are always variations. It's not that games weren't there >> either, it's just that economically if you wanted to play games in the 70;s >> you bought a console or went to the arcade. Home computer games were >> inferior in the earliest versions >> b >> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:37 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>>> -Original Message- >>>> From: Paul Koning via cctalk >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM >>>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>>> Cc: Paul Koning >>>> Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk >>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the >>>>> microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing >>>>> scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using >>>>> the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people >>>>> whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you >>>>> should consider mentioning this somehow. >>>>> >>>>> Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor >>>>> installed. >>>>> >>>>> A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do >>> today. >>>>> The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type >>>>> work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore >>> users. >>>> >>>> Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; >>> the >>>> PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several >>> places. >>> >>> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan >>> Turing >>> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. >>> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the >>> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. >>> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. >>> He also wrote the "love letters" program. >>> .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1 >>> >>>> >>>> paul >>> >>> Dave >>> >>>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
and kenbak was not the first "home computer" when will that one die I don't know. ..NRI 832 pre-dates by at least 6 months :-) On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:49 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and > 60's > > > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/restoring-the-heathkit-es-400-computer > > https://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/heath.analog.1956.102646297.pdf > https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/May2016_Heathkit_Restoration > > > > On 3/8/2023 1:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, < > dave.g4...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan > Turing > >> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > >> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > >> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 > screen. > >> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > >> He also wrote the "love letters" program. > > Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days > ago about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown > version of the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. > > > > paul > > > >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and 60's https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/restoring-the-heathkit-es-400-computer https://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/heath.analog.1956.102646297.pdf https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/May2016_Heathkit_Restoration On 3/8/2023 1:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, wrote: ... Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan Turing insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. He also wrote the "love letters" program. Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days ago about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown version of the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. paul
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
SO - To return to the video feedback - I think the author should comment on the evolution of what "Home Computing" is/was, the evolution in demographics of the home computer user, the cost, etc. Needs perspective Bill On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > My point was that "home computing" does not equal playing computer games > at home. That is something that evolved into the early 90's.Games were > much less of a thing in home computing of the 70's. THere are always > exceptions, there are always variations. It's not that games weren't there > either, it's just that economically if you wanted to play games in the 70;s > you bought a console or went to the arcade. Home computer games were > inferior in the earliest versions > b > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:37 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > -Original Message- >> > From: Paul Koning via cctalk >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM >> > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >> > Cc: Paul Koning >> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers >> > >> > >> > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk >> >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the >> > > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing >> > > scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using >> > > the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people >> > > whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you >> > > should consider mentioning this somehow. >> > > >> > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor >> > > installed. >> > > >> > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do >> today. >> > > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type >> > > work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore >> users. >> > >> > Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; >> the >> > PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several >> places. >> >> Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan >> Turing >> insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. >> Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the >> English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. >> In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. >> He also wrote the "love letters" program. >> .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1 >> >> > >> > paul >> >> Dave >> >>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
My point was that "home computing" does not equal playing computer games at home. That is something that evolved into the early 90's.Games were much less of a thing in home computing of the 70's. THere are always exceptions, there are always variations. It's not that games weren't there either, it's just that economically if you wanted to play games in the 70;s you bought a console or went to the arcade. Home computer games were inferior in the earliest versions b On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:37 PM Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > -Original Message- > > From: Paul Koning via cctalk > > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Cc: Paul Koning > > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers > > > > > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the > > > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing > > > scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using > > > the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people > > > whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you > > > should consider mentioning this somehow. > > > > > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor > > > installed. > > > > > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do > today. > > > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type > > > work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. > > > > Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; the > > PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several > places. > > Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan > Turing > insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. > In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > He also wrote the "love letters" program. > .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1 > > > > > paul > > Dave > >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:37 PM, > wrote: > > ... > Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan Turing > insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. > Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the > English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. > In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. > He also wrote the "love letters" program. Along those lines, I was amused to see a letter to the editor a few days ago about ChatGPT, which pointed out that it's basically an overgrown version of the famous ELIZA program from the 1960s. paul
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> -Original Message- > From: Paul Koning via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:25 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Cc: Paul Koning > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers > > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the > > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing > > scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using > > the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people > > whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you > > should consider mentioning this somehow. > > > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor > > installed. > > > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today. > > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type > > work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. > > Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; the > PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several places. Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan Turing insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. He also wrote the "love letters" program. .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1 > > paul Dave
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the > microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing scene > in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using the > machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people whonowned > surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you should > consider mentioning this somehow. > > Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor > installed. > > A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today. > The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type work, > not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. Conversely, computer games predates home computers by a decade or so; the PLATO system is a major source of early games, documented in several places. paul
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the
microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing scene
in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using the
machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people whonowned
surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you should
consider mentioning this somehow.
Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor
installed.
A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today.
The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type work,
not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users.
Bill
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 1:43 PM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk
wrote:
> Yes. I second that. Having the daughter as a narrator is perfect. No
> offense, Steve.
>
> Regards,
> Tarek Hoteit
>
> > On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:09 AM, W2HX via cctalk
> wrote:
> >
> > I loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daughter
> would be great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am
> right about the computer narrator, aren't I?).
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > Cc: Steve Lewis
> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> >
> > Adrian,
> >
> >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
> >
> > Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One
> > idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for
> continuous
> > play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons
> > since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used
> without question.
> >
> > The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!!
> > Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might
> focus more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind
> of bio on the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces").
> >
> > Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80"
> (training kit Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the
> PC-8001 in '79), it probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France
> flag for the Micral-N -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we
> just couldn't cover every item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we
> debated to not have popup flags at all, but I felt it was important to note
> that there was international involvement here.
> >
> > -Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points :
> >>
> >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
> >>
> >> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if
> >> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it
> >> into
> >> 2 parts.
> >>
> >> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes
> >> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the
> >> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it
> >> did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia
> >> also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any
> >> other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the
> >> best known parts of the international trade ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
> >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Greetings,
> >>>
> >>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been
> >>> making
> >> about
> >>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping).
> >>>
> >>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here:
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc
> >>>
> >>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render
> >>> the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Steve
> >>>
> >>
>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Very informative and enjoyable. I echo the narration sentiment, maybe a
little more life in the voice would hold attention.
My only other comment is some of the information pictures go by pretty
quickly. It'd be neat even in a slower slideshow version so I could take
the time to read the ads and pictures :-) Of course that's coming from an
enthusiast perspective. Regular viewer runtime suggestions are good (your
10-15m YouTube algorithm).
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 12:43 PM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk
wrote:
> Yes. I second that. Having the daughter as a narrator is perfect. No
> offense, Steve.
>
> Regards,
> Tarek Hoteit
>
> > On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:09 AM, W2HX via cctalk
> wrote:
> >
> > I loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daughter
> would be great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am
> right about the computer narrator, aren't I?).
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Steve Lewis via cctalk
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > Cc: Steve Lewis
> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
> >
> > Adrian,
> >
> >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
> >
> > Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One
> > idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for
> continuous
> > play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons
> > since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used
> without question.
> >
> > The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!!
> > Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might
> focus more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind
> of bio on the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces").
> >
> > Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80"
> (training kit Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the
> PC-8001 in '79), it probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France
> flag for the Micral-N -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we
> just couldn't cover every item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we
> debated to not have popup flags at all, but I felt it was important to note
> that there was international involvement here.
> >
> > -Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points :
> >>
> >> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> >> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
> >>
> >> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if
> >> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it
> >> into
> >> 2 parts.
> >>
> >> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes
> >> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the
> >> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it
> >> did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia
> >> also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any
> >> other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the
> >> best known parts of the international trade ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
> >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Greetings,
> >>>
> >>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been
> >>> making
> >> about
> >>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping).
> >>>
> >>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here:
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc
> >>>
> >>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render
> >>> the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Steve
> >>>
> >>
>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Yes. I second that. Having the daughter as a narrator is perfect. No offense,
Steve.
Regards,
Tarek Hoteit
> On Mar 8, 2023, at 10:09 AM, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
>
> I loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daughter would
> be great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am right about
> the computer narrator, aren't I?).
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Steve Lewis via cctalk
> Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Cc: Steve Lewis
> Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
>
> Adrian,
>
>> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
>> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
>
> Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One
> idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for continuous
> play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons
> since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used without
> question.
>
> The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!!
> Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might focus
> more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind of bio on
> the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces").
>
> Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" (training kit
> Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the PC-8001 in '79), it
> probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France flag for the Micral-N --
> but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we just couldn't cover every
> item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we debated to not have popup flags
> at all, but I felt it was important to note that there was international
> involvement here.
>
> -Steve
>
>
>
>> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points :
>>
>> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
>> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
>>
>> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if
>> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it
>> into
>> 2 parts.
>>
>> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes
>> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the
>> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it
>> did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia
>> also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any
>> other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the
>> best known parts of the international trade ?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been
>>> making
>> about
>>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping).
>>>
>>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc
>>>
>>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render
>>> the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Steve
>>>
>>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I loved it. I would only suggest a human narrator like your daughter would be
great. But I don't like the computer generated narration (I am right about the
computer narrator, aren't I?).
-Original Message-
From: Steve Lewis via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 11:54 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: Steve Lewis
Subject: [cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Adrian,
> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One
idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for continuous
play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons
since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used without
question.
The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!!
Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might focus
more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind of bio on
the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces").
Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" (training kit
Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the PC-8001 in '79), it
probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France flag for the Micral-N --
but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we just couldn't cover every item
to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we debated to not have popup flags at all,
but I felt it was important to note that there was international involvement
here.
-Steve
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points :
>
> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After
> a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
>
> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if
> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it
> into
> 2 parts.
>
> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes
> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the
> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it
> did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia
> also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any
> other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the
> best known parts of the international trade ?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been
> > making
> about
> > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping).
> >
> > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc
> >
> > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render
> > the final sometime this weekend or sometime this month.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> >
>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
She made you proud!! If all our kids can get as excited and curious about the history of computers as your daughter then the future will be so bright. We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 9:05 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: > > Tarek, > >> This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high >> quality video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, > and your daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on >> the history of computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and > software. For once, our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers > came from?” :) > > You got it, the hope is to help awareness and be something acceptable for > schools to use. And part of this started when my daughter asked me "what > was the first home computer?" I just couldn't give a simple answer :) > She did the background (her signature is at the bottom left, "Carrion" -- > and its subtle, but the gray at the top and bottom was intended to > represent silica sand) and picked most of the system arrangement. > > > Thanks! > Steve > > > >> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:25 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your >> middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality >> video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your >> daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of >> computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, >> our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) >> In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can >> see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology of >> events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked >> about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what’s the fine line of >> telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you >> managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and >> machines. Well done! >> >> Regards, >> Tarek Hoteit >> >>> On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> Greetings, >>> >>> We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making >> about >>> home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). >>> >>> If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc >>> >>> Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the >>> final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Steve >>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
I like that you've included machines like the HP and IBM - sometimes these histories start with the Altair as being the first one at an affordable price, but I'm sure those desktop machines got to a lot of scientific homes before the enthusiasts machines began to appear. On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:05 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > Tarek, > > > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high > > quality video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, > and your daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on > > the history of computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and > software. For once, our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers > came from?” :) > > You got it, the hope is to help awareness and be something acceptable for > schools to use. And part of this started when my daughter asked me "what > was the first home computer?" I just couldn't give a simple answer :) > She did the background (her signature is at the bottom left, "Carrion" -- > and its subtle, but the gray at the top and bottom was intended to > represent silica sand) and picked most of the system arrangement. > > > Thanks! > Steve > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:25 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality > > video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your > > daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of > > computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, > > our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) > > In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can > > see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology > of > > events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked > > about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what’s the fine line of > > telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you > > managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and > > machines. Well done! > > > > Regards, > > Tarek Hoteit > > > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making > > about > > > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > > > > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > > > > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > > > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Steve > > >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Tarek, > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high > quality video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on > the history of computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) You got it, the hope is to help awareness and be something acceptable for schools to use. And part of this started when my daughter asked me "what was the first home computer?" I just couldn't give a simple answer :) She did the background (her signature is at the bottom left, "Carrion" -- and its subtle, but the gray at the top and bottom was intended to represent silica sand) and picked most of the system arrangement. Thanks! Steve On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:25 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality > video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your > daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of > computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, > our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) > In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can > see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology of > events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked > about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what’s the fine line of > telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you > managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and > machines. Well done! > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Greetings, > > > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making > about > > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > > > Thanks, > > Steve >
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Adrian,
> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After a
> while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One
idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for continuous
play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons
since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used without
question.
The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!!
Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might focus
more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind of bio
on the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces").
Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" (training
kit Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the PC-8001 in
'79), it probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France flag for the
Micral-N -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we just couldn't
cover every item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we debated to not
have popup flags at all, but I felt it was important to note that there was
international involvement here.
-Steve
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points :
>
> There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After a
> while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated.
>
> It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if
> they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it into
> 2 parts.
>
> And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes
> machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the
> description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it did
> have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia also had
> clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any other
> countries have a history that was more complex than picking the best known
> parts of the international trade ?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making
> about
> > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping).
> >
> > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc
> >
> > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the
> > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> >
>
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
This is awesome, Steve. First of all please give a high five to your middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology of events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what’s the fine line of telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and machines. Well done! Regards, Tarek Hoteit > On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk > wrote: > > Greetings, > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making about > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > Thanks, > Steve
[cctalk] Re: on the origin of home computers
Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points : There's a long tail to the video with no video and blank audio. After a while, a section of audio from the main flow is repeated. It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it into 2 parts. And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it did have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia also had clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any other countries have a history that was more complex than picking the best known parts of the international trade ? On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Greetings, > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making about > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > Thanks, > Steve >
