Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

[George Tyler via EV]

I also have a 2013, original battery was 10 bars when I bought it in 2019,
done 25K km since then, battery dropped to 7 bars this year. I found another
2013 battery with 10 bars, had dome more kms than mine. So far it's still at
10 bars. Here in NZ 2013 is the worst for battery degradation, almost every
leaf for sale cheap is 2013, but some are still at 11 bars. I don't know how
to tell if it's a lizard though.

-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of Ken Olum via EV
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2022 4:47 am
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Ken Olum 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery replacement ?

   From: "Peri Hartman" 
   Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 02:12:45 +

   How do the "lizard" batteries perform in cold weather?

I haven't paid careful attention to ours, but there was certainly not some
huge problem in the cold.

   Regardless of range, you're saying the lizard battery won't degrade as 
   quickly ?

Yes.  At 95K miles or so, I think our original 2013 battery was down to
7 (maybe 6) bars of battery health out of 12.  We replaced it with a
2015 battery which had 11 bars even though it had 85K miles or so.  7000
miles later, it is still at 11.

   My experience with the OEM battery is roughly 50% range at 25F versus
   70F. 

This is pretty terrible.  When we had cars with lead-acid batteries we saw
this level of temperature sensitivity, but it shouldn't be so much with
lithium.  Was it this bad originally or only after your battery got old?  Is
it often 25F in Seattle?

   If I buy a used lizard that has, say 60 mile range at 70F, what can I 
   expect at 25F ?


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Re: [EVDL] Mid drive bicycle regen: how to.

[George Tyler via EV]

I have bikes with ev conversions I bought before the dedicated e bikes were 
available, but hub motors. I don't use gears, I keep it in top gear. Can you 
ride a centermotor bike only using top gear? Then you can do away with 
derailleur?

-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock via EV
Sent: Thursday, 7 April 2022 1:11 am
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Bill Woodcock ; Lawrence Rhodes 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Mid drive bicycle regen: how to.



> On Apr 5, 2022, at 5:30 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
> It seems the only restriction to regen on a mid drive electric bike system is 
> a locking derailleur. If there were such a thing then that would make it 
> possible to have regen ...however is the derailleur itself able to be made 
> strong enough to capture the force.

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Re: [EVDL] HV DC input -to- 120VDC output inverter???

[George Tyler via EV]

At 400V battery voltage it will probably be "transformerless", in which case
the power side would be capable of running at 200V for 120V output. The
control would need to be "hacked". I have a UPS I bought for $300, 225V
battery and 240V AC out. Not grid tied though, these are available 2nd hand,
>From the weight I think it has a transformer and one purchased in USA would
be 120V. This is wired to work with my Lexus 250H  hybrid, leave the car
running and the engine starts and stops as needed, giving mains power as
long as there is petrol in the tank. I have not run it yet to check, but
reports say efficiency is similar to running a Honda generator when it's
needed.

-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal via EV
Sent: Monday, 18 October 2021 1:10 pm
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peter VanDerWal 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HV DC input -to- 120VDC output inverter???

> They are still available on Ebay for $400. Darn nice price for a 6KW
inverter.
> Does appear to have a split-phase 240, 120/120 output.
> Dual Solar panel (200v-500v) inputs.
> I went digging around the specs, and it appears that battery input needs
at least 400V.
> I found various discussions online about configuring it, using it
off-grid, etc...
> 
> Won't work for an inverter off my truck pack, as it's only 320v.

Won't work with the 'battery' connection, but you could hook you truck
battery to the PV input.
In order to get the battery connection to work you'd have to hack the
communications protocol between the inverter and the battery controller.
What others have done is just hook their EV pack to the PV panel input,
supposedly any DC input between about 120V and 550V should work.

If you have it grid tied it will push the full 6kw to the grid.  However, if
it's functioning in island mode it will only pull enough power from the
batteries to support the current load on the inverter.

Again, this is what I've read online.  I haven't tried it yet myself.
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Re: [EVDL] regent seaglider (Electric Eel - partway there)

[George Tyler via EV]

Seems to have worked ok to me!
https://youtu.be/V8Nu94khHoo
https://youtu.be/_Cq0ffFiJUY
https://youtu.be/4pd8SFCuFpk
https://youtu.be/Vbjorr_FIko

There are more than you will want to watch! In the early 60's there was a
article in "popular Science", I tried it with a sheet of paper on the floor.
I always dreamed about making one. Even considered it when I lived in
Auckland NZ. 


-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Saturday, 28 August 2021 4:36 am
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] regent seaglider (Electric Eel - partway there)

This is interesting. No question ground effect works, that's how float
planes get enough speed to takeoff and conversely land. But it sounds very
complicated to actually build a craft that flies this way.

First, the pilot must keep the plane in the ground effect region. I suppose
with a sophisticated autopilot, this could be done. Manually, I think it
would be too stressful.

Second, navigation might be tricky if it is "flying" in channels with other
craft. Perhaps in a pinch, the plane could actually fly and hop over other
craft, maybe that's their intent. But you can imagine a sailboat or whatever
craft, getting into the path of the plane without realizing they don't have
enough time to get out of the way.

The third issue is maneuvering. As pointed out in the article, it's hard to
make turns while in ground effect. They claim to have a novel technique to
do that but I didn't see any details.

A ground effect transport could have been done decades ago with gas engines.
I've never heard of it on a commercial scale. Is that relevant ?

Anyone have more knowledge on this ?

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Rod Hower via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
Cc: "Rod Hower" ; "EVDL Administrator" 

Sent: 27-Aug-21 05:25:35
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric Eel - partway there

>  I just read this one today about the all electric 
> Seaglider,https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/regent-seaglider-wing-in-
> ground-effect-vehicle/index.html
>

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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[George Tyler via EV]

I actually think hydrogen from solar and wind is a good think, ICE trucks 
pickups etc can be converted to run hydrogen in the ICE engine, just stop 
making new ICE cars. Hydrogen helps in a few different ways. With petrol, it 
can run on a 5% mixture, so you can almost run without a throttle which makes 
it more efficient due to no pumping loss. In diesel, running a % of hydrogen 
with diesel makes for a clean exhaust and also better consumption. We going to 
have to live with a few ICE around for a few years. What we don't want is for 
this to slow down the BEV uptake, and for this end we can stop subsidizing fuel 
and charge  road user charges. One charge with upkeep of roads and licence and 
even third party insurance thrown in and an additional charge for ICE that can 
be adjusted.

-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of Ed Blackmond via EV
Sent: Saturday, 14 August 2021 9:33 am
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Ed Blackmond 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all


> On Aug 13, 2021, at 9:27 AM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> At some point, we'll probably have enough large scale excess that it makes 
> sense to produce hydrogen with that excess. But, I believe, the primary use 
> for that hydrogen will be for backup grid power generation, not 
> transportation. At that point, we'll be able to have a 100% clean grid and a 
> grid capable of charging EVs across the country !


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Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system undercharges the 12v battery.

[George Tyler via EV]

It's not just the inductance of the wiring and the 3 phase windings on the
alternator though. Mechanism  is like a DC-DC with a very slow feedback
loop. This is the rotor inductance causing the problem, during the high load
current time the control current in the rotor is increased to maximum by the
regulator and this current takes a long time to decay when the regulator
senses an over voltage. During this time there can be little load on the
electrical system and the alternator is actively pumping out as much current
as it can! For this reason Alternators use "avalanche rectifiers" that are
basically zeners to control the voltage. 
https://www.jstor.org/stable/44472894?seq=1

"Yes, a DC/DC is different; but the same principles apply. An alternator has
no output filter caps, but has lots of inductance.  When you open-circuit
it, you get a tremendous voltage spike." 
Yes, you can make it whatever you want it to be by changing the time
you choose. A typical load dump pulse is up to 400ms and can be 120V in real
life. The peak current in this time is the maximum current the alternator
can put out, for a car about 150A. 


" Suppose something momentarily shorts the DC/DC output, and its capacitors
deliver a peak current spike of 1000 amps; which almost immediately burns
out the short. The wire between the DC/DC and that short has a mere 1
microhenry of inductance. V = L x di/dt. 1 uH x 1000a / 1usec produces a
1000 volt spike.".
  



-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Thursday, 22 April 2021 6:46 am
To: George Tyler via EV 
Cc: Lee Hart 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system
undercharges the 12v battery.

George Tyler via EV wrote:
> An alternator is very different to a Dc-Dc converter in this respect. 
> Modern high frequency DC-DC conv. Have very small inductors storing 
> very little energy. An Alternator has a HUGE inductor storing a lot of 
> energy, and this is not on  the output but in the control side! So has 
> much more effect! You won't get much overshoot from the DC-Dc converter.

Yes, a DC/DC is different; but the same principles apply. An alternator has
no output filter caps, but has lots of inductance.  When you open-circuit
it, you get a tremendous voltage spike.

A DC/DC has negligible inductance, but huge output filter capacitors. 
When you short it, you get a huge current spike. Since there is always
wiring inductance, this high current "charges" the inductance. When the
short suddenly goes away, you still get a huge voltage spike.

"Suppose something momentarily shorts the DC/DC output, and its capacitors
deliver a peak current spike of 1000 amps; which almost immediately burns
out the short. The wire between the DC/DC and that short has a mere 1
microhenry of inductance. V = L x di/dt. 1 uH x 1000a / 1usec produces a
1000 volt spike."
Yes, and you will also get a 1000 Amp current with the same short on
a battery. Car electronics is designed for load dump and from experience it
is quite hard to achieve. This is 0.5J energy, load dump could be 6,000J,
far more of a problem. 
I have been thinking of doing this with supercaps with a added small
DC-DC to keep the caps charged from the main battery but finding a place to
take the main battery supply off is not trivial. The Solar panel should be
able to keep the caps charged, except if there is no sun.


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Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system undercharges the 12v battery.

[George Tyler via EV]

An alternator is very different to a Dc-Dc converter in this respect. Modern
high frequency DC-DC conv. Have very small inductors storing very little
energy. An Alternator has a HUGE inductor storing a lot of energy, and this
is not on  the output but in the control side! So has much more effect! You
won't get much overshoot from the DC-Dc converter.

-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Wednesday, 21 April 2021 5:32 pm
To: Robert Bruninga via EV 
Cc: Lee Hart 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system
undercharges the 12v battery.

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> what is the "load dump" problem?

In automotive parlance, the dreaded "load dump" occurs when the alternator
(or DC/DC) is charging at a high rate, and something causes a sudden drop in
load current. It could be a loose or corroded battery cable, or a cracked or
intermittent connection inside the battery, or a momentary short somewhere
in the wiring (like hooking up jumper cables
backwards) that pushes the alternator (or DC/DC) to its maximum output...
and then suddenly that load goes away.

The voltage then skyrockets to 30v, 50v, even 100v or more; until
*something* absorbs the current (Bang!), or the alternator or DC/DC detects
the loss of load, and backs off.

Here's an example that happened to a friend of mine. The car was running,
and he reached up under the dash wearing his wrist watch with a metal band.
It shorted +12v to GND. The voltage sagged, and the alternator went to full
power. The wristwatch band melted off his wrist
(YOW!) Now the load was suddenly removed. And then... every light in the car
that was on flashed and burned out. It also blew a number of uses, but
luckily the electronics were either well enough protected, or off at the
time.

Lee

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Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system undercharges the 12v battery.

[George Tyler via EV]

I think that's normal, there has to be some electronics one for remote to work? 
My hybrids did this too, in fact, even my old 1994 estima does this, no remotes.
-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of Glenn Brooks via EV
Sent: Wednesday, 21 April 2021 4:46 pm
To: p...@ingineerix.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Glenn Brooks 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system 
undercharges the 12v battery.

Hmm, Phil’s comment about battery drain is very interesting.  Up until last 
year, My daughter had an older Lexus SUV hybrid . She worked in San Francisco 
and walked to work, so the car stayed parked for weeks sometimes. When parked 
for a week, the battery pack and the lead acid battery always went dead from 
some mysterious , undetectable current draw.  Neither the dealer or Lexus ever 
traced ( or admitted a design flaw) in the supposed stray current, when parked. 
 We never figured it out. Finally talked her into selling the d#%n thing.  
Wondering if something to do with cell monitoring was killing the batteries.

It’s gone out of our life, ( dad’s are the 24 hr on call emergency fixit guys), 
but still curious.


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Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system undercharges the 12v battery.

[George Tyler via EV]

The leaf battery  behaves much like the 12V Prius battery in my experience.
They both seem to fail earlier than they should, but when should they fail?
That is "opinion".  The failure mode is different, probably because they
don't fail by not turning a started motor? So you don't know capacity is
almost zero.
I don't think a lithium is good for this application. To get
voltages that are close enough you have to use LiPo4 litiums, with a very
flat discharge curve. This means that the charging voltage is not optimal,
although they do work in this application in ice cars with 14.7V charging. 4
cells at 13V is 3.25/cell, that's totally flat for these batteries! 14.7V in
an ICE is 3.675V per cell which is about right. Temperature compensation for
a lead acid may be way off.  How about a supercap "battery", much less
critical. Seeing that we don't notice the leaf battery losing capacity until
it's dead, maybe we don't actually need much capacity?
GWT

-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Wednesday, 21 April 2021 2:14 pm
To: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
Cc: Lee Hart 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system
undercharges the 12v battery.

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=22752 According to these guys 
> a lead battery is not what a Leaf needs. Seems a lithium of some sort 
> would do great. Another site said the DC/DC converter can put out as 
> much as 120amps. The brakes and other systems that run on the 12v 
> system might need a boost if the battery fails and braking is very 
> important. After finding out that the lead battery is under charged I 
> suspect an undercharged lithium battery might fair much better and for 
> longer. Lawrence Rhodes

I don't "buy" it, Lawrence. Too many of his comments are just opinions; not
facts. Just a few glaring points:

- A 12v battery *will* reach full charge at 13.0v; it just takes a long time
(like a week or so).
- He ignores temperature compensation. The Leaf does temperature compensate
its charging.
- He ignores aging. The older the battery, the lower its basic charging
voltage.
- 14.4v will easily fully charge a 12v battery. Remember, if it's holding
the battery at around 13.0v, it's already close to full; so it takes very
little time at 14.4v to finish the job.

Lee

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Re: [EVDL] J1772 vs Nema flat blade insertion cycles for EV

[George Tyler via EV]

I have converted one, the older wide body leaf charging cable has a 200V
60hz transformer. Here, the frequency is 50hz so already 20% higher flux
density from that. They burn out on 240Vac 50Hz dure to transformer
saturation. I took the transformer out, could have got it rewound for the
required voltage and frequency but as I design switching electronics went
with that. I used a plug in 12V supply board, changed a resistor in the
voltage sense cct to make it give 15V. Also changed the plug to the locally
used 15A spar pool plug, a (10k I think) resistor in place of the thermistor
in the plug as I broke the one in the plug. Can anyone point me to a source
of the original matching Japanese socket? I would like to get that instead,
better quality than what we use here.(NZ). The psu PCB fitted in place of
the old transformer and makes it 80-265V compatible.


-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: 29 March, 2021 6:33 AM
To: mark hanson via EV 
Cc: Lee Hart 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] J1772 vs Nema flat blade insertion cycles for EV

mark hanson via EV wrote:
> Hi Lee etc,
> 
> I also have a 2013 Leaf.  Did you make an adapter to go from the 120V 
> plug to the 14/50 240V plug on the Leaf's portable EVSE?  I know my 
> Tesla portable is rated for 32A at 240V max (just plugged in/works 
> great) but I didn't know the Leaf was rated for 240V (15A probably).

I understand that it can be converted to 240vac, but I haven't tried it
myself. The way we drive, 120v charging has been completely adequate.



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Re: [EVDL] Updating old EV truck with genset?

[George Tyler via EV]

yes, on yoytube.

- Original Message -
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 3, 2021 7:36:00 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Updating old EV truck with genset?

On 2 Feb 2021 at 13:26, paul dove via EV wrote:

> Get a Prius generator out of a wreck

Have you actually tried that?  Saying it is easy, but from what I've read, 
actually getting bits of the Prius drive system to work outside of the 
Prius's complex computer-controlled environment isn't trivial.  Has anyone 
here succeeded?  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 It will always be one of the best jokes of democracy that it 
 gives its deadly enemies the means to destroy it.

   -- Joseph Goebbels
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] DC - DC Iota DLS-55/IQ4

[George Tyler via EV]

Many devices are 88 to 264V, that will just work.  


-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of paul dove via EV
Sent: Friday, 28 August 2020 6:30 am
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: paul dove ; David Delman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC - DC Iota DLS-55/IQ4

 The DLS-55 is designed to run off of 120V AC.

The standard U.S. AC outlet voltage is 120VAC rms +-10% The peak voltage is 
Vrms x sqrt 2 = Vrms x 1.414.

120Vrms = 170Vpeak
240Vrms = 340Vpeak

Many devices that use AC wall power have a simple bridge rectifier or bridge 
doubler at the input.
The bridge rectifier will peak detect the AC, creating a voltage that is 170DC 
with a lower valley due to ripple. 
DC voltage will pass through the bridge.
Thus you need an ~170VDC source to equal the rectified 120VAC voltage.
202VDC would be too much and most likely blow something


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Audi V2H/Home-charging tech> 12kW DC wallbox &9kW storage

[George Tyler via EV]

They must have an AC battery.

-Original Message-
From: EV On Behalf Of evln via EV
Sent: Sunday, 9 August 2020 5:10 pm
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: evln 
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Audi V2H/Home-charging tech> 12kW DC wallbox &9kW storage



https://in.finance.yahoo.com/news/audi-developing-vehicle-home-charging-07454.html
Audi developing Vehicle to Home charging technology allows electric cars to not 
only receive electricity from home
27 July 2020 ... stores via wall chargers but also give the stored energy back. 
In Audi’s test grid, the e-tron operated with a DC wallbox EVSE ...
-Audi claims its Vehicle to Home (V2H) system does not require an inverter, 
thus making it more efficient -System comprises of the 12kW DC wallbox charger 
and a 9kW home storage unit to charge and draw power from the e-tron ... 
Because of ...the connection between the home electricity system and the e-tron 
didn't require an inverter, making it very efficient ...
https://media.zenfs.com/en/autocar_india_354/6d2451fe8f894ce24828ca578703ce0f


+ (pay4 parking w/ v2g electricity)
https://electriccarsreport.com/2020/07/nissan-accepting-electricity-as-payment-for-parking/
Nissan accepting electricity as payment for parking July 31, 2020  Nissan is 
giving ... the ability to pay for parking with electricity ... electric vehicle 
drivers will be able to discharge power from their car’s battery pack to pay 
for parking while visiting the Nissan Pavilion exhibition space in Yokohama ... 
Nissan Chaya Cafe, operating on power supplied by Nissan LEAF electric cars and 
solar energy ... 
https://youtu.be/5FAsadUM26I




For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
 http://www.evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] Leaf battery

[George Tyler via EV]

Hi all, I am considering getting a battery for my leaf, I think there will be 
many more in USA than NZ, and hopefully at a price I can afford. Does anyone 
know of a source there? Problem is, it needs to be good, not stored for long 
and not at or near 100%. Then, I would need to get it shipped... 
George

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Re: [EVDL] Pune.in EVSE-infrastructure-weakness> e-Bus genset-recharging (v)

[George Tyler via EV]

"> Consider hybrid cars; they generally get better fuel economy. 

I'm not an engineer, so I'm treading hazardous waters here, but I'm not so 
sure I agree."

A clue comes from the fact that EV's get their best consumption around town,
and ice cars on the open road. As ice can get 35% efficiency, but this is at
80% load, it drops terribly at low loads, and of course at zero load the is
no comparison. In an manual gas car, drive down a level road at 20 mph,
reach a steady state, then, holding the accelerator position, put your foot
on the clutch. The engine speed will increase a bit but not scream. This is
because most of the fuel is being spent on turning the engine over at that
speed, not on driving the car. Under the same conditions a hybrid will run
on electric.


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Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

[George Tyler via EV]

I have been considering this too, seems silly to convert the solar panel 
power to 50/60Hz AC, into the Leaf, then to DC to charge the batteries 
again! I am thinking it would be better to have solar always below 360V 
(lowest leaf battery voltage) and a boost converter or isolated topology 
to charge into the Chardemo port. Boost would mean it does not have to 
handle all the power, but I am a bit nervious of having the leaf battery 
galvanically connected to the panels! Electronics would be very similar 
to a Chardemo charger I guess, will have to have can bus etc, but then 
you can do all kinds of other things that will help, like set the charge 
level to anything you like, V to G, etc too.




On 15-Aug-19 6:33 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

I mean from the solar panels, disabling them.
  


 On Wednesday, August 14, 2019, 12:50:01 AM CDT, Cor van de Water via EV 
 wrote:
  
  All grid tie central inverters (so, not the micro inverters) take input voltage above 400V so they can direct switch the AC output without transformers. Input is typically up to 1000V these days.

I plan on installing solar strings of at least 400V so that I can always charge 
my EVs by direct wiring the panels to the battery, in case there is no grid and 
I need energy in my EV.
I also have a large UPS that is intended to run with 2x 192V lead-acid 
batteries (it is an older model double conversion UPS) so I am planning to 
connect it to a Leaf pack with center tap so it can both charge the pack as 
well as island like any UPS to feed any critical loads in the house. I need to 
see if it has the power saving setting where it is not always double converting 
(wasting power) and just keeps the battery charged, but feeds the incoming 
power through until there is a power loss, then it instantly starts converting 
battery power to output without even losing the output.
With such a setup, it would be possible to use solar in 2 ways: DC only to 
directly charge the UPS batteries (but needs overcharge protection and waste 
power as soon as batteries are full) or the usual string inverter generating AC 
to feed back into the grid and independently run the UPS to keep the batteries 
charged and generate uninterrupted power. Only drawback is that during an 
outage, the solar inverter trips and does not generate power, but this should 
happen only rarely.

Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Robert Bruninga via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:06 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Robert Bruninga; jkenny23
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Thaniks.  Yes, I got it wrong.  I updated the web page .

So now a use leaf is about 2.3 power walls but a bit over half the price.
Thanks for the tip.

bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of jkenny23 via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:31 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: jkenny23 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: PowerWheels idea (Vehicle-to-home)

Minor correction, your 3 year old Leaf is only 30kWH max (with less
actually usable, limited by on-board BMS). It would only take a bit of
clever reverse engineering to make use of ChaDeMo capable Leafs by
controlling the contactor to close and feeding a high voltage solar grid
tie inverter (I believe there are models that can use up to 400V already).
Then you could use up to 20kW comfortably.

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf BMS

[George Tyler via EV]

This is what I found there, other forums say something similar.
"Shunt resisters are 430 ohm across each set of cells. When shunting 
they draw V^2/R power, or roughly 16/430 or 40 mW each. There are 96 
sets of cells, so if all but one was active, total power would be about 
3.5 watts."
I suspect that the 420 ohm resistor is not a shunt load. Have you seen 
the circuit?



On 14-Aug-19 4:22 PM, Bob Bath via EV wrote:

George, probably a stupid question, but I’m gathering you’ve already been on 
mynissanleaf.com? I don’t know if the moderators pull anything like that off 
immediately, but I look fwd to hearing what others have to say about this...

Sincerely,
Bob Bath

Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 54 y.o. 
vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not 
cluelessness.



On Aug 13, 2019, at 9:14 PM, George Tyler via EV  wrote:

 Has anyone had a good look at the operation of the Leaf BMS. Circuit is 
very different, and so is the operation. First thing I noticed when I got 
leafspy was that the BMS works ALL the time, not just above a certain voltage. 
Leafspy also shows it working on the lowest cells, so it's not just a shunt? 
the circuit shows inductors in series with all measuring wires to the 
batteries, both sides of each cell. These points are then coupled together by 
capacitors, the whole pack.
   My thinking is that this could be energy transfer path between any cells and 
multiple at the same time. This count be done via half bridge inverters on each 
of the wires. I have searched, but find nothing, apart from some comments that 
it is a small surface mount resistor that is the shunt, and only 7.5 mA. That 
would actually do nothing for a 60ah battery.





On 14-Aug-19 3:06 PM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

A URL or name for this company would be appreciated.

Try this, although it seems some of the products are discontinued/out-of-stock:

https://evparts.com.au/ev-power-bms.html


Let me know once you have a few extra to sell.

This will likely be a fall/winter project, once the year's firewood is put up 
and the outdoor chores cease due to the weather.

Another part of the repower project is going to be to rework a Todd Power 
Source to be a lithium-compatible 36v charger. I'll probably run barefoot 
without a BMS in the short term and carefully balance and charge manually until 
I get something worked out.

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[EVDL] Leaf BMS

[George Tyler via EV]

    Has anyone had a good look at the operation of the Leaf BMS. 
Circuit is very different, and so is the operation. First thing I 
noticed when I got leafspy was that the BMS works ALL the time, not just 
above a certain voltage. Leafspy also shows it working on the lowest 
cells, so it's not just a shunt? the circuit shows inductors in series 
with all measuring wires to the batteries, both sides of each cell. 
These points are then coupled together by capacitors, the whole pack.
  My thinking is that this could be energy transfer path between any 
cells and multiple at the same time. This count be done via half bridge 
inverters on each of the wires. I have searched, but find nothing, apart 
from some comments that it is a small surface mount resistor that is the 
shunt, and only 7.5 mA. That would actually do nothing for a 60ah battery.





On 14-Aug-19 3:06 PM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

>> A URL or name for this company would be appreciated.

Try this, although it seems some of the products are 
discontinued/out-of-stock:


https://evparts.com.au/ev-power-bms.html

>> Let me know once you have a few extra to sell.

This will likely be a fall/winter project, once the year's firewood is 
put up and the outdoor chores cease due to the weather.


Another part of the repower project is going to be to rework a Todd 
Power Source to be a lithium-compatible 36v charger. I'll probably run 
barefoot without a BMS in the short term and carefully balance and 
charge manually until I get something worked out.


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Re: [EVDL] Prius forum question: Prius pack rebuilding

[George Tyler via EV]

really? I just got rid of 7 Priuses for high self discharge, NHW10's, I 
still have a number of packs, now 20 years old, only ever found 1 cell 
with low capacity, and 1 with high internal resistance. They still have 
over 5 Ah capacity, but i have seen up to an amp self discharge, well 
some totally short circuit. It they all have the SAME self discharge, 
then this would be true, but with one cell having 1 mA and another 50mA 
in the same string there is not much you can do. I have been cutting and 
soldering other cells in to fix them for about 8 years, but the cars are 
now not worth the work now.


On 23-Dec-18 2:58 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

The guy confuses self-discharge with loss-of-capacity.  Since a hybrid
battery is always used within SECONDS of its last charge, self dischrage is
absolutelyu not an issue in a hybrid.

bob

On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 3:28 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:


I didn't spend much time looking since this is [off t] and
  should really be asked on a Prius forum, i found

https://priuschat.com/threads/prius-gen-3-hv-battery-replacement-nimh-or.186748/




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
  http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

[George Tyler via EV]

I am thinking, it all depends on what is acceptable range? 50% loss over 5
years, so in a year it's 40%, 2 year 30%, so probably not worth paying
NZ$10k (US$6,600) for?

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Willie via EV
Sent: 13 December, 2018 11:39 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Willie
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc



On 12/12/18 4:33 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

> Is this not the case with lithium?  Is a lithium battery with 68% of spec
> capacity still considered usable?

There are a LOT of Leafs driving around with less than 50%.  Nissan 
invariably tells the owners that it is normal and to be expected.

I haven't seen, or had direct knowledge of, a Tesla going below about 
90%.  However, Tesla repairs/replaces a lot of batteries presumably 
because of dead cells or other problems that the owners may not notice.
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[EVDL] Buying a leaf, SOH, GID etc

[George Tyler via EV]

Hi all, I am considering buying a used import from Japan Leaf, can someone 
please explain the terms they use for battery, they advertise like this: 
" 9 BARS, SOH 68% ", and some people talk about GID and Ah, I do understand 
electronics, but I don't know what they talking about in relation to battery 
capacity,  like, why is SOH not related to BARS, what does SOH stand for anyway?
Regards, George

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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance

[George Tyler via EV]

I know my Prius computers draw a total of 250W standing still. if the 
leaf was similar, whats 250Wh consumed in an hour even if you did not move.


On 07-Dec-18 5:24 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be 
inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how 
efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).


I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's 
where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2 
device?


Peri


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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[George Tyler via EV]

>From my experience, we had an in-house test company that ran independently,
we wanted to know the truth, results are not released to the public but used
to improve reliability. The name of the company is at stake. When I see
something like a cell phone company that has battery fires I know it's
either a mickey mouse company, or someone did not do their job properly!
There is nothing to be gained by "fudging" results
component failure should follow a "bath tub" shape, on a graph of
failure rate on the vertical axis and time on the horizontal. The shape can
tell a lot about product quality, you are testing many samples, and they
should lie on the same curve. Bad production methods or bad component
quality can be indicated by a spread in different ways. We also tested
components like the SCR's used in the same manner, we ran 70A SCR's at over
1000 amps, tested many samples for months like that, also tested spade
terminals used in the products.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: 13 September, 2018 4:46 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Lee Hart
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> Yeah, I wouldn't say prove either. But testing can be far better than the
> old tried, and not very good cycling tests.

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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[George Tyler via EV]

It is not a test done on 1 product, it is all work out statistically, it 
will be something like, "if you test 100 batteries with acceleration 
factor X for 3 months, then you will be 97% confident it that it will 
last 10 years in the car." At Gallaghers (electric fence manufacturers) 
we had 1 guy to do this calculation and control the test, results were 
amazing, reduced failure rate right down.



On 12-Sep-18 12:08 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 11 Sep 2018 at 15:48, Jan Steinman via EV wrote:

"And then the only thing you've proven is that THAT battery lasted 10 years."


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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[George Tyler via EV]

It is the meaning of "lifetime" i think, that is in question, of course 
not every battery will last 10 years, i should have said "expected 
lifetime", i guess.




On 12-Sep-18 10:48 AM, Jan Steinman via EV wrote:

From: "George Tyler" 

it is all proven science, you can prove a lifetime of 10 years

"Prove" is a pretty strong word, a word that scientists rarely use. "Proofs" are for 
mathematicians and lawyers; scientists generally speak of "evidence."

If you'd say, "There's a pretty high confidence level that these batteries will last ten 
years," I wouldn't argue. But the only way you "prove" that a battery will last ten 
years is to use it for ten years.

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[George Tyler via EV]

Also worked on SONAR, really interesting stuff. Had a 1,8m high bay full of
processors, detecting ship's propeller noise. Each one had the sound of a
known ship's prop stored in ROM and did a correlation to find which ship it
was. Also did some work on the fire control for the torpedo's. those had a
speed of 24 knots, while the Russian nuclear sub had been clocked at 50, so
the subs could do circles around the torpedos. 
The other thing about Batteries. And big manufacturer now does HALT
testing highly accelerated life testing) to prove the life of components, it
is all proven science, you can prove a lifetime of 10 years in a test taking
3 months. 


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV
Sent: 10 September, 2018 4:47 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jan Steinman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

> From: George Tyler 
> 
> I used to design electronics for 
> military, (submarines) you can make MTBF say whatever you want!

Yea, so true. The Navy got so frustrated that they abandoned static analysis
for real-time testing.

I worked on linear beam forming for subs. We used card-edge scan testing
during retrace time, when the virtual beam was essentially scanning back
through the hull. Each bus interface unit had a Motorola 68000 on it, just
to control the testing, 60 times a second.

Jan

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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[George Tyler via EV]

From a Electrical engineering perspective, the mean time between 
failures of 6800 cells is terrible but you can lose a lot and still have 
a functioning car, so I recon he is probably right, but it depends of 
the MTBF of the 2 types of cells too. I used to design electronics for 
military, (submarines) you can make MTBF say whatever you want! nowdays 
they use FMEA (failure mode and effects analysis) too, that this would 
show what really happens.
 you could say "if you lose one cell with large format then the car 
is immobilized but you could lose 3400 cells with small format, so it's 
3400 times better".




On 09-Sep-18 1:34 PM, mark hanson via EV wrote:

Hi Bob etc,

  


Consumer Reports said while they loved driving a Tesla model S, they gave it
a poor rating on reliability and preferred the Leaf and now the Bolt, saying
"you'd be nuts not to consider a Bolt".  Elon Musk/Tesla is the *only*
company that's putting 6800+ 21mm X 70mm itty bitty cells together in a
large EV.  When they came out with the Roadster in California, I asked a
Tesla salesman about the long term reliability of 6800 points of failure and
he said "don't think of it as 6800 points of failure, think of it as 6800
points of redundancy".  Good spin.  Either they know something that *no*
other large scale vehicle manufacturer/engineering teams doesn't, or their
long term reliability/profitability will continue to be poor.  Knowing what
I know about electronic componentry, I'll put my money on large format cells
for large on road EV's, Bolt, Leaf, Smart, BMW etc.

  


Note for further info, see: www.Batteryuniversity.com EV battery
comparisons/lithium chemistries LMC Cathode, vs LiFePO4 & aluminized cathode
(tesla type) cells.

  


Best regards,

Mark




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Re: [EVDL] Honda Insight Lithium Upgrade

[George Tyler via EV]

I have been considering this too, but for some old Priuses I have. It is not
easy! Equallisation is done by overcharging the full cells at 10-15A, can't
do that with Lithium! With these cells, which are the same as my prius ones,
overcharging is allowed. Also, even with Ni-Mih they are degraded by
continuous overcharging, and is the reason they fail so often. I have
considered making another battery computer with a BMS that handles the new
battery, could either replace the old one, or you could keep both, and
generate voltages the old computer expects, drop the voltage with a divider
to make it believe the battery is low when it really is, and boost it when
the battery is full to make it stop charging. I would use Li-po4 cells for
the flatter discharge curve.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Rod Hower via EV
Sent: 23 May, 2018 9:11 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; EVDL
Cc: Rod Hower
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Honda Insight Lithium Upgrade

Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum

  
|  
|   |  
Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum
 Honda Insight Forum: Join our Honda Insight forums for free today to
discuss Honda Insight hybrid, fuel economy,...  |  |

  |

 
Everything you want to know about the Insight, including upgrades.In case it
doesn't publish that link its www dot insightcentral dot net 

On Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:05 PM, lektwik via EV 
wrote:
 

 Hi Folks

A friend has a 2001 Honda Insight with a degraded NiMh battery pack and
wants to upgrade it to Lithium.

I suspect there are multiple reasons this may not work, primarily that the
on-board battery management software isn't compatible with Lithium.

If anyone could provide "insight" on why this could or won't work it would
be appreciated. Also any links to more info would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Roy

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Re: [EVDL] Lithium drop in replacements.

[George Tyler via EV]

I have some headway cells in the original boxes, charge them every few 
months, if I wait too long some will be 2V and others 3.65, from being 
equal the time before. I have jigs to measure self discharge directly, a 
4 wire very accurate charger with a current measurement, I calculate the 
self discharge from that. some have zero, i can't remember the worse 
number, but it corresponded to 5% per month, as per manufacturer's spec. 
I wrote to them, asking if I can get them in tighter groups, but no answer.
  The reason it this started was that a pack Verne got for his bike was 
very low capacity, found no cells were actually faulty, just at the 
limits of self discharge.



On 15-May-18 1:18 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

Hey thanks for your input. I’m sure a lot of people have varied experiences. I 
must’ve met there probably differences between manufacturers. However that was 
not my experience. I bought Bestgo sales hundred amp hour. I did extensive 
testing before installing them in a vehicle. I put 40 for 100 amp our cells in 
a 1986 Toyota Celica. I charge them 3.65 V per cell or 160.6 V.  After sitting 
for a while the voltage dropped 148.7 v or 3.38 volts per cell. I drove the 
vehicle every day for two years. There was never a variance at the end of 
charge. All the cells measured 3.38 V several hours after charging. I took the 
cells out of the vehicle And they said on the shelf for year and a half or so. 
I measure the voltage and they were all 3.38 V. However they do experience 
reversible capacity fade. I discharged all the cells and Got 45amp hours the 
first time. The second cycle I got around 65 amp hours and it continued to 
increase for five cycles. On the last cycle all the cells measured Close to 100 
amp hours.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 12, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:


From: Cor van de Water via EV 
I also did tests on LiFePO4 cells and while self-discharge was low, I was able 
to prove from my measurements over many weeks, that there is was about a factor 
2 difference in self-discharge current between the best and worst cell. Sample 
size was over 40 cells.

This is what I have found as well. Brand new cells, all bought at the same time 
from a quality source are very similar. Their amphour capacity, internal 
resistance, and self-discharge rates are very close.

But cells from cheap or low-quality sources have a much broader spread in 
characteristics. Cells also get worse as they get old, or get cycled, or as the 
temperature changes. Differences between cells accumulate over time, getting 
worse and worse. You may get by without a BMS initially, but it gets needed 
more as the differences between cells grows Not having a BMS means shorter life.


This is exactly what the author of the quoted article found, that the capacity 
of the cells had not degraded, but the cells had gotten out of balance.

Yes. The BMS was too primitive to do its job of balancing the cells. Only 
having upper and lower voltage limits prevents against catastrophic failures; 
but does not compensate for differences between cells.


--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Lithium drop in replacements.

[George Tyler via EV]

Another thing, I see the ebike chargers have 2 voltage pots, I think one 
is for the ballance charge, at reduced current. Have anyone seem this?



On 12-May-18 6:47 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

Thanks that was interesting. It’s more likely that the Dakota BMS was causing 
the imbalance with parasitic unbalanced loads, however.

Sent from my iPhone


On May 11, 2018, at 11:56 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:


On 10 May 2018 at 6:35, paul dove via EV wrote:

Do you have any evidence of these batteries failing because of out of balance
conditions or is that speculation

The battery I mentioned ("Dakota" brand) was advertised as having a true
balancing BMS.

Discussion of PCBs vs BMSes here:

http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/2013/05/lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4.html

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Lithium drop in replacements.

[George Tyler via EV]

I have used headway cells, headway specs them as 5% per month self 
discharge! so have close to zero, worse is 5 in practice. found it to be 
a big problem, if you charge every day it's ok, but the ebike i got them 
for may go a while without charging, also, If it is not left on charge 
long enough they still will not equallize. at the moment, there is no 
way to tell when eq is complete, could be 400+ hours if they are out by 
their capacity! I won't use them again.




On 12-May-18 6:09 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

I also did tests on LiFePO4 cells and while self-discharge was low, I was able 
to prove from my measurements over many weeks, that there is was about a factor 
2 difference in self-discharge current between the best and worst cell. Sample 
size was over 40 cells.
This is exactly what the author of the quoted article found, that the capacity 
of the cells had not degraded, but the cells had gotten out of balance, so the 
protection circuitry allowed an ever shrinking overlap between best and worst 
cell. Simply balancing the cells brought back the original available pack 
capacity, which is logical.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

BTW, this email address will soon cease to work, please find me at 
cor.vandewa...@gmail.com


On May 11, 2018 10:58 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
Actually I do have evidence. I did extensive testing with LiFePO4 cells. I 
found no evidence of self discharge or of balance issues with cells connected 
in series.

Sent from my iPhone


On May 11, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

Paul,

Do you have any evidence of this or is it speculation?

(Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.)

Bill D



On 5/11/2018 12:47 PM, paul dove via EV wrote:
Thanks that was interesting. It’s more likely that the Dakota BMS was causing 
the imbalance with parasitic unbalanced loads, however.

Sent from my iPhone


On May 11, 2018, at 11:56 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

On 10 May 2018 at 6:35, paul dove via EV wrote:

Do you have any evidence of these batteries failing because of out of balance
conditions or is that speculation

The battery I mentioned ("Dakota" brand) was advertised as having a true
balancing BMS.

Discussion of PCBs vs BMSes here:

http://ka7oei.blogspot.com/2013/05/lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4.html

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Genset range extender

[George Tyler via EV]

He only wants 30 kw, many engine could do this at lower rpm. Low rpm is not a 
problem as long as it is high enough to keep the oil pressure up and not cause 
vibration that may cause crankshaft failure.

-Original Message-
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
Sent: ‎5/‎03/‎2018 04:55 p.m.
To: "R. Sparks Scott" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

Cc: "Lee Hart" 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Genset range extender

R. Sparks Scott  asked me to post this for him, as he's
not subscribed. He wrote:

> Aside from the worn-out idea that impromptu series hybrids are
> anything worth bothering with, John needs to know that his *diesel*
> genset head is intended to be driven by a diesel engine, not a
> gasoline engine. Why this matters is that all directly-driven
> generator heads for diesels will be optimized for 1800 RPM at rated
> output (for 60Hz), while gasoline (and LPG) heads will expect 3600
> RPM.
>
> Obviously, if he is intending on rectifying the output to DC, it
> doesn't matter that the head won't need to be on-frequency of 60Hz,
> but forcing a gas engine to lug along at lower RPMs to make the
> voltage more-or-less correct is going to be a strain on the ICE and
> probably give him a big hit in available peak voltage, and by
> association, available current into his battery pack/motor.
>
> My inclination would be to stop encouraging him until he understand
> the dynamics of what he is proposing. Series hybrids don't work well
> in the best of designs, and he's throwing together a collection of
> incompatible components that are sure to disappoint.

That's a good point. While I've seen gasoline gensets that ran at 1800 
RPM, most do indeed run at 3600 RPM. This makes them smaller (but 
noisier). Gasoline engines need to run fast to generate their rated 
horsepower.

But if he's driving it with a car engine, most of them will happily run 
at 1800 RPM for hours on end. You just can't get anything near its rated 
horsepower. For instance, it might require a "100 HP" engine to produce 
30 HP continuously.

Projects like this are always a trade-off between the "right" way, and 
the "expedient" way to do it. Using what you have, in unconventional 
ways isn't perfect, but may be good enough to get by.
-- 
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

[George Tyler via EV]

I have done something like this, but on a smaller scale. Simple approach, run 
engine at 1/2 or 3/4 throttle, control excitation to control engine revs, if 
you want more power, REDUCE excitation! No regulator. Use 3 ph bridge, ripple 
frequency is 360 Hz depending on speed, and alternator inductance / impedance 
will reduce ripple. I think you will find ripple is acceptable.

-Original Message-
From: "John Lussmyer via EV" 
Sent: ‎5/‎03/‎2018 05:17 a.m.
To: "cor.vandewater" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 
Cc: "John Lussmyer" 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 3 phase range extender?

On Sat Mar 03 22:53:42 PST 2018 cor.vandewa...@gmail.com said:
>John,Yes, the 3 phase output is pretty easy to be directly rectified into a 
>battery pack and regulate the motor speed to get the current output you want, 
>since the battery pack voltage is not much going to change, so with just small 
>variations in engine rpm you will vary output current and thereby power 
>output.The current waveform will not be pretty, just like with all bad boys, 
>but 3 phase is much better than single phase.Success!Cor.

Ahh, another useful answer.
Sounds like I have some experimentation to do.


--

Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250

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Re: [EVDL] Suspicious calb cell

[George Tyler via EV]

Sounds reasonable, but surely the charge current is much less than the 
discharge, so voltage drop on discharge will triggrer low charge cutoff 
for the pack long before this becomes an issue with charging? I have had 
problems with high self discharge on headway cells, still within spec of 
5% per month, but even at 5% it is enough to cause serious problems when 
others are zero, unless it is charged often.




On 08-Feb-18 3:26 AM, Steve Clunn via EV wrote:

I've seen this a few times and not had any luck with warranting cells from
the company. One thing I have not seen mentioned that I believe might be
happening is that as these batteries get a little age on them and their
internal resistance goes up when they are charging their BMS starts
shunting current before everyone in the pack is charged and that one cell
starts to fall behind the others as the BMS shunts current which decreases
its amp hours in that cell. Which BMS are you using? I have wired another
cell in parallel with the offending stinker to fix the problem. Steve Clunn
with greenshedconvention.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: e-NV200 campervan on 3week road.nz trial

[George Tyler via EV]

I saw it! at the charging station in Cambridge  NZ, opposite the town 
hall, which is the nearest town to me. Green "Jucy" van, very small for 
a campervan.




On 09-Feb-18 6:46 PM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:


http://gisborneherald.co.nz/autowatch/3198473-135/electric-campervan-on-three-week-road-trial
Electric campervan on three-week road trial
January 30, 2018

[image
http://gisborneherald.co.nz/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=tDfPQWV5W041asN0GaqmB8$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtoeklmNgbvvdITzUbbR6UaWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-=image/jpeg
]

International tourists visiting New Zealand could be hitting the roads in
electric campervans within two years if a new electric vehicle trial proves
successful.

Auckland-based company Jucy Rentals will trial a full-electric Nissan
E-NV200 campervan with the help of two overseas tourists.

During their journey, two visiting French students will travel thousands of
kilometres throughout the North Island in a prototype Jucy campervan,
powered only by electricity.

The tourists plan to visit about 30 destinations in the North Island over
three-weeks.

Jucy CEO Tim Alpe says the company aims to introduce a new category of
electric vehicle to its fleet to meet growing demand from millennial
tourists.

“Electric vehicles are the future of the Jucy campervan fleet and this trial
is the ideal platform to test our product offering for customers.

“This market segment in particular wants more environmentally-sustainable
travel options. At the same time this gives our tourists more choice and
cheaper running costs.”

Alpe says further expansion of the programme will need additional investment
in charging infrastructure and vehicles that can travel further distances.

“Campervans are the perfect vehicle to be electrically powered as tourists
tend to drive during the day and can then recharge overnight at their
campground.

“One of the biggest barriers we will face in the short term is lack of
infrastructure to support EV charging.

“We are working with camping grounds to introduce suitable facilities for
overnight charging but there is also a need to bring in rapid chargers on
the roads between main centres.

“At the same time, there are range limitations of the vehicles that need to
be overcome to ensure tourists can travel long distances across the country,
without the need to constantly recharge their battery.

“Our future as a sustainable tourist market will be short-lived if our
customer experience is impacted by the range their vehicle can travel each
day.”

The company plans to introduce charging stations at their branches and
hotels across NZ and Australia. -Driven
[© gisborneherald.co.nz]



+
https://www.tahawultech.com/news/electric-vehicle-road-trip/
Electric car road trip crosses UAE finish line
January 28, 2018  Global EVRT has concluded its nine-day road trip across
the UAE and Oman, in a bid to accelerate electric vehicle adoption across
the Middle East. The trip, which featured a fleet of cars including
Chevrolet Bolt EVs, a BMW i3 and Tesla X and S models, saw the opening of
numerous new electric vehicle charging stations ...


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/condos-grappling-with-demand-for-electric-car-charging-stations/article37871983/
Condos grappling with demand for electric car charging stations
20180208  For condo-hunting Jean Guilbault, there was one feature in
particular that any building absolutely had to offer if it was to make the
grade: a charging station for …




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
  http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Anybody interested in 2012 Leaf minus battery and Airco?

[George Tyler via EV]

Pity it is left hand drive, I would buy the whole car and ship to nz

-Original Message-
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
Sent: ‎3/‎06/‎2017 08:24 a.m.
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
Subject: [EVDL] Anybody interested in 2012 Leaf minus battery and Airco?

I have a 2012 brilliant Silver Leaf SV in good shape, minus a scratch on
a rear quarter panel. Someone expressed interest in buying the battery
plus Airco components from the car, so I am checking if anyone is
planning to convert a car or truck using Leaf drivetrain or is
interested in parting out this Leaf?

Send me a message off-list! (note that the car is not Salvage, it has a
clear title)

Thanks,

Cor

(in Silicon Valley, USA)

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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

[George Tyler via EV]

If you use that ebikes.ca calculator, set the controller current limit well
above what the motor can handle, you will see maximum power at close to 50%
of maximum RPM, this is at full throttle, and current only limited by the
motor resistance. At that 50% speed efficiency is also around 50%. Lowering
the controller current limit setting shifts the maximum power point and
efficiency higher, up to 60 to 75% as you say. So, it all depends on the
controller. My "250W" ebike draws 675W at 15km/hr, and on the flat it does
30 km/hr. the 1kw ungeared Hub motors do better efficiency because they are
not running at the un- current limited maximum power point. The maximum
power allowed here is 300W, Europe is 250W. 

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: 31 May, 2017 4:29 AM
To: ken; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Most efficient hub motor for 20" wheel

ken via EV wrote:
>   I have a Bike E with a 20" rear wheel I want to put a 36 volt at 500 
> to
> 1000 watt hub motor there but I want it RPM effecint  for 20 mph. 
> where do i find such a wheel at reasonable price.

I also have a Bike-E, and have thought of electrifying it. But its handling
is such that I wouldn't feel comfortable with such a big motor. Keeping it
down to
20 mph is a good idea!

Note that PM motor efficiency tends to peak strongly near full power. At
light load, they are much less efficient, because you have full magnetic
losses all the time. So it may be better efficiency-wise to use a smaller
motor and gearing to achieve the best speed/efficiency tradeoff.

My Bike-E has a 7-speed rear hub, and of course a very long chain. My
thought was to mount the motor under the seat, with a freewheel sprocket to
the chain. 
That way, it gets the benefit of the gearing. The freewheel means you're not
spinning the motor when it's not being used while pedaling.

--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent.
It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move in the opposite
direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.

[George Tyler via EV]

Have a look at ebikes.ca , they have a setup that is basically a hub motor used 
like mid motor run at a higher voltage and RPM than it is normally used at, 
called the "strokemonkey". A 24V, 1kw motor used at 48V gives 2kw. There is a 
calculator on there that is very helpful. Verne Pavreel who has posted a few 
times Has a similar setup, one of the issues with ebike setups is that the 
quoted efficiency is the maximum,  on a hill you are often getting 50% with 
common ebikes. A more powerful motor will do better on hills if run at the same 
power as the 50% ones, but then the efficiency at light load suffers. Running 
the motor through a transmission with gears that can be changed can help a lot 
to achieve high efficiency at both extremes at the expense of drive complexity 
and reliability.
A 1kw ebike motor may draw 5A 48V at full speed lo load! While a Prius 
40kw draws 1A... obviously much more effort has been put into making the Prius 
motor high efficiency. I have thought of using the Prius MG1 motor, the small 
20kw one, in an ebike. What current does the Lynch motor draw running free at 
48V? anyone know?

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: 29 May, 2017 6:53 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] Most efficient drive system for a bicycle/tricycle.

I'm looking at options for my Terratrike.  Mid vs hub seems to be the thing.  
Seems bike systems are only 80% efficient.  Has any one had good success with 
efficiency as well as speed.  I'm looking to top out at 30mph with a 20 inch 
wheel. Is voltage an issue?  I'd like to keep it to 48vdc but I'm willing to go 
higher or lower if it is an advantage(money or performance).  I will eventually 
have a shell with solar panels plus my 250 pound hunk O' fat.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] EV to Hybrid Trailer

[George Tyler via EV]

How about using a front end cut from a Prius as a trailer? Keep the drive 
shafts etc, everything just as it is. Then, it is a pusher trailer plus charger 
with extra regen braking too. There would be a number of ways of doing this, if 
you want it simple, don't use MG2 Just MG1, and  control the throttle position 
to control charging current? This will control torque at the same time, maybe 
even rig up a tow hitch control over throttle, like a trailer brake in reverse?

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of conservation architect 
via EV
Sent: 17 May, 2017 7:33 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV to Hybrid Trailer

Thanks to those who replied to my inquiry.  My instinct is that a real engineer 
with familiarity of the cars design would be needed to pull this off.  

David Roden  makes some very interesting points.  He points out that the 
emissions are high for less regulated motors. The pollutants that he sites are 
CO, NMHC + NOx.  This certainly give me pause for moving forward.  CO2 is 
definitely a motivator for me.  The emissions for this are gallons (10% 
ethanol) typical x 19#CO2/gal (epa website 
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=307=11 ).  

I have evaluated the actual gas mileage using David’s metric of m/kwh x speed 
to determine kwh/h or kw of continuous power.  I would need 14.3 kw generator.  
Using this 15 kw generator 
http://www.electricgeneratordepot.com/generac-5734-gp15000e-15-000-watt-electric-start-portable-generator-992cc-ohvi
 I end up with a mere 18.75 mpg not accounting for the reduced m/kwh for the 
trailer.  Our Honda Element (2nd car) gets 25 mpg.  The trailer would only make 
environmental sense if we can go back to using renewable energy while we are at 
the destination. My figures are pasted in from spreadsheet below.   


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[EVDL] FW: Video with new music.

[George Tyler via EV]

Verne has problem posting on here, although I set up an account for him some
years ago. He is blind, so working a computer is not as easy as for sighted
people. You can see him in this video.

 

From: verne.pavr...@gmail.com [mailto:verne.pavr...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 16 February, 2017 7:04 PM
To: George Tyler
Subject: Fw: Video with new music.

 

Hi   George 

 

How is this draft.

I'd love you to post it to EVDL and find out what they think.  If you do,
please tell them I'm a keen EVDL watcher.

 

Cheers   Verne.

 

- Original Message - 

From: Ian Stewart   

To: verne.pavr...@gmail.com 

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:49 PM

Subject: Video with new music.

 

Hi Verne,

 

The link to the quad cycle movie with Scott Joplin's "The Entertainer" music
from 1902.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKEoWzh0e6g

 

 

cheers,

Ian.

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Re: [EVDL] Any truth in these claims?

[George Tyler via EV]

Some time ago I discussed a system on here this was similar in a way, trying to 
reduce the number of cells. I talkinged about going all the way, ONE cell. 
10,000 Amps at 4V for an exercise. There are fets now that are 1mOhm or below, 
I had many phases in my proposal, so does this. Many phases will be on at the 
same time, so effectively in parallel. The fact that they talk of 45 phases 
makes me reluctance to call "scam!", It may be real.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: 17 February, 2017 4:47 AM
To: Matthew Quitter; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Any truth in these claims?

I'm skeptical. At 48 volts, you would either need lots of systems working in 
parallel, each with their own motor or you would need cables the size of a 
bench press world champion's arms. The voltage that various EV manufacturers 
choose has nothing to do with the source of electricity (it has everything to 
do with the losses due to high current), so you have to figure that they aren't 
telling the complete story.

They don't mention anything about sitting on a stack of hydrogen tanks or where 
the hydrogen comes from, either.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Matthew Quitter via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc:
Sent: 16-Feb-17 7:36:29 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Any truth in these claims?

>Found on social media today... sounds somewhat fantastic in both senses 
>of the word.
>
>Headline:
>300 km/h in The World’s First Electric Sports Car with 48 V Low-Voltage 
>Flow Cell Drive
>
>First para:
>It took a long time. The development team at nanoFlowcell Holdings had 
>worked for several years to make fuel cells directly controllable.
>Having
>finally succeeded in achieving direct variable control of a fuel cell 
>in October 2016, the company now wants to demonstrate the potential of 
>direct fuel cell drive and has built a true eye-catcher in the shape of 
>the world's fastest eco sports car. The QUANT 48VOLT is the prototype 
>of a new generation of electric vehicles. It is equipped with what is 
>currently the safest, most powerful, environmentally compatible and 
>economical drive system for electric vehicles that could be built in 
>series production, and provides a view of our future mobility.
>
>http://emagazine.nanoflowcell.com/technology/300-kmh-in-the-worlds-firs
>t-electric-sports-car-with-48-v-low-voltage-flow-cell-drive/
>
>
>07966 806 727
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Re: [EVDL] Generator?

[George Tyler via EV]

there are many ways to do it, in the one George Spratt did he did not use
any of the original computers, just a starter motor and a 3 PH bridge on the
MG to provide DC. I don't really know which way would be best at the moment.
The Prius engine is very efficient, and that is past of the reason for the
low fuel consumption. Narrow piston rings and bearing shells etc to reduce
friction 13.5 to one compression etc. Also the "miller cycle" so you can
reduce output power by changing the inlet valve timing, this, together with
the 16 valve setup can almost eliminate pumping loss to give diesel like
economy. You could take out either MG1 or MG2. and some of the mechanics to
reduce weight. The engine it's self is the same as the NHW20, it's just used
at lower revs and the "gearbox" is very similar too, only reason for using
the NHW10 is that I have a couple, and they are available here very cheap.
You could use a NHW11 in USA. The NHW20 has the DC-DC converter which could
make it easier to match the MG output voltage to the EV's battery voltage.
What car do you have in mind?

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: 17 February, 2017 9:00 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Generator?

The Prius is not the first vehicle I would consider for this, but if you are
going down this track then there are a couple remarks / additions /
questions:

- Are you suggesting to essentially do the "pusher-trailer" by using the
motive (front wheel drive) power from the Prius? If that is the case then
the optoin to generate electricity and recharge the EV pack is just an
additional benefit, not the main feature of the trailer, since you can use
the trailer to maintain speed and only use the EV power to accelerate.

- you will have to keep a 300V (273.6V nominal) battery pack, which is not
the strong point especially of the NHW-10 with its D-cell stacks.

- if your EV pack is close enough to the 300V of the Prius, you might
consider hooking it up instead of the Prius pack and add a resistor divider
array (19 resistors) to keep the Prius BMS happy if needed to keep the Prius
going. Added benefit could be that the Prius will maintain (charge) the EV
pack if indeed close enough in voltage, but even a low lower voltage can be
used to allow the Prius to start its engine, my NHW-11 still made attempts
to start the engine at 150V battery voltage.

If you are unable to use the EV pack or simply don't want the direct EV
battery connection to cross over the hitch, you can still consider running a
charger off the Prius pack and use it to re-charge the EV while driving.

The interesting thing is that Prius has electronic throttle control and
accelerator pedal sensor, no direct linkage. So controlling it from the
pulling vehicle is a lot simpler.

If you are after an efficient pusher-trailer then even getting a cheap
(crashed) NHW-20 (2004+) should be considered. They do not even run the
engine until you press the accelerator or there is a need (battery
charging) so you can have it sit "idle" with the engine off until you need
the pusher trailer to start moving and simply pushing the accelerator will
start the engine and get you going!

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of George Tyler via EV
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:22 AM
To: 'paul dove'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Generator?

Verne Pavreal asked me to post this: Some time ago he and I were discussing
a range extender generator for an electric Nissan NV200 van he wanted to
buy, came up with the idea of using the front end of a Toyota NHW10 Prius, I
have a few. A friend of both of us in Auckland, George Spratt, has used a
Prius engine/ gearbox on a trailer to extend the range. He tested it against
a Honda inverter/generator (the most efficient he found) and got similar
consumption, so it's probably as good as you can get. George Sprat runs it
on wood gas now. 
Lots of advantages, plenty of power, it's all there, trailer built
in. It could either be a pusher trailer or take out the drive mechanicals
and it's just a generator, or could be both. All the engine electronics is
there too! Depending on which way you go, you may need a starter motor:
there are other cars that are not hybrid that use the same block, so you can
get the starter from

Re: [EVDL] Generator?

[George Tyler via EV]

Verne Pavreal asked me to post this: Some time ago he and I were discussing
a range extender generator for an electric Nissan NV200 van he wanted to
buy, came up with the idea of using the front end of a Toyota NHW10 Prius, I
have a few. A friend of both of us in Auckland, George Spratt, has used a
Prius engine/ gearbox on a trailer to extend the range. He tested it against
a Honda inverter/generator (the most efficient he found) and got similar
consumption, so it's probably as good as you can get. George Sprat runs it
on wood gas now. 
Lots of advantages, plenty of power, it's all there, trailer built
in. It could either be a pusher trailer or take out the drive mechanicals
and it's just a generator, or could be both. All the engine electronics is
there too! Depending on which way you go, you may need a starter motor:
there are other cars that are not hybrid that use the same block, so you can
get the starter from one of those like George Sprat has done. Engine
produces 40kw, but you may have to use both MG's to send all this to the
batteries. If you use a lot less you can set the valve timing to optimize
consumption.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via EV
Sent: 16 February, 2017 5:03 AM
To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Generator?

Alan Cocconi designed the EV1 electronics for GM.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 13, 2017, at 12:33 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
> 
> The most efficient EV APU I know of was the "Long Ranger" trailer Alan 
> Cocconi built for his Honda Civic hatchback EV about 2 decades ago.  
> He used a (Kawasaki?) motorcycle engine.
> 
> http://www.evdl.org/docs/acp_lr.pdf
> 
> I'm not sure the gadget advertised in the flyer linked above is the 
> same as the one Cocconi actually used to drive his Honda EV all over 
> the US.  It says it generates 9kW and "extend[s the] range by 200 
> miles per 5 gallon tank of fuel."
> 
> That would be 40mpg, but I recall reading that the one Cocconi 
> actually used with his Honda, which AFAIK actually could keep up with 
> the EV's energy use on the highway, got a real world highway mpg of 32.
> 
> For direct comparison, a similar Honda Civic VX or HF hatchback of 
> about the same vintage got real world highway mpg in the 48-56 range.
> 
> I don't think I ever read anything about exhaust emissions from 
> Cocconi's APU.  Anyone know how regulated motorcycle emissions were in the
mid-1990s?
> 
> Cocconi was (presumably still is) a genius engineer.  I don't know 
> about your engineering background, but I know for sure that I 
> personally could never cook up something even that efficient and reliable
in my garage.
> 
> Apparently building an APU isn't quite as simple as just chucking a 
> genset in the back and plugging your EV's charger into it.  We've had 
> quite a few discussions of fueled APUs on the EVDL over the years, and 
> I recall reading reports of burned-out gensets, chargers, even
controllers.  Be careful.
> 
> Honestly, I think you'll get better results overall by just keeping an 
> ICEV in the garage for long trips -- or renting one when you need it.  
> Or you could just buy yourself a Chevrolet Volt. Be aware that the 
> Volt's mpg in "charge sustaining" mode is decent but not all that 
> impressive.  EPA says 37mpg, and owners seem to get around 34-35.
> 
> But if you're in it for the technical challenge, I guarantee that 
> building and integrating your own fueled APU will give you  plenty of
that!
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL 
> Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the 
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] AC induction motor, rotor heating up..

[George Tyler via EV]

If there is no slip then the current in the rotor is zero, no matter what
the current is in the stator. Rotor has a L/R ratio, and has an amount of
slip that produces the maximum current, more than this slip and the current
in this rotor drops off due to the rotor inductance. Talking about motors
designed for 50 /60 Hz mains, they have to start at 100% slip, so this L/R
ratio is made to allow a lot of slip so that the rotor current will be high
at start, but this is a compromise with efficiency and rotor heat as to do
this the rotor resistance is made high. A motor designed for inverter usage
will have a low resistance rotor and less slip, so less heat. This may just
be a function of the motor type in this case we are discussing, it may be a
motor designed for good starting torque and low starting current. High
stator starting current does not mean high starting torque, it is more
likely to mean the opposite, not always though. There are many different
rotor designs, some have two cages, one for starting and another for
running.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: 14 February, 2017 7:51 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AC induction motor, rotor heating up..

I think it is possible to "over-drive" an AC induction motor, that is why
commercial drives can be configured for an acceptable slip between
electrical motor frequency and actual mechanical speed of the rotor.
The higher the voltage on the AC motor, the higher the torque and the lower
the slip, but also the higher the current in the rotor.
Unnecessarily high current just wastes power and heats up the motor, without
significant reducing the slip, so you can lower the motor voltage to the
point where the rotor slip is just acceptable for the torque you are
demanding from the motor. If you need higher torque or speed, then you will
need to increase the voltage on the motor but in steady-state / low torque
operation there is no need for full AC voltage so commercial drives can
modulate their output to lower voltage based on acceptable slip / torque
demand.
It is also needed to increase the max RPM that the drive can run the motor,
for a certain supply voltage

The effect is similar to the "filed weakening" in DC motors.
You see the SepEx motors also having an algorithm of how to apply enough
field to deliver the work without constantly burning up the field coil.

Hope this clarifies,


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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[George Tyler via EV]

Accelerated life testing is a science on it's own. A friend of mine has made a 
career out of it, runs a network of Labs for a huge medical electronics 
company. We worked for the same company twice through the years, he did the 
testing for a lot of the electronic products I designed. What separates the men 
from the boys is creating test plans that DO work the same as real life, if you 
can't do this it is a waist of time or worse. You create a model, test it, and 
old when it aligns with reality do you do the actual testing. Say you model is 
to run the product at elevated temperature, you run one at ambient +20 deg, 
another at +30. +40 etc etc, then measure time to failure, draw a graph. Where 
the graph suddenly take off for the sky is the point you must keep below. There 
is much more to it as well.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jukka Järvinen via EV
Sent: 24 September, 2016 2:09 AM
To: Michael Ross; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

Rarely what one can get for free is useless. People even sleep in cardboard 
boxes.
So is the idea to push forward the responsibility to recycle? This is no 
business per se. If something it's just smarter use of existing resources.

What it comes to better electrolytes.. that is HARD! The testing cycle to 
confirm lifetime and usability is way too long. Accelerated aging tests are not 
the same at all to real life use. While I have to admit I was wholly impressed 
by the Hydro Quebec battery research lab. Boy do they have toys there! :D 
(droool) Advancements in R are available as we can now see more deeper and 
more accurately with color-SEM and such.

Does it not go without saying that one should not use cell-murder (tm)? BMS has 
to be done right.

-Jukka

P.S.- Dear Santa. I would like to have a $10bn to research more. Thank You!

2016-09-23 14:47 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :

> Advances in testing are just beginning to drive more effective research.
> For example tiny adjustments in electrolyte components can yield big 
> improvements. The testing is faster and provides more granular 
> investigations.
>
> Re LFP you mistreat them and they die a quick death, but stationary 
> apps you can treat them well.
>
> EV battery packs may not be optimal compared to purpose built 
> stationary packs but they are far from useless.
>
> Mike Ross
>
> On Sep 23, 2016 4:43 AM, "Jukka Järvinen"  wrote:
>
> > Usually the internal resistance is growing much faster than the loss 
> > of capacity. So if you use the pack in very low power application 
> > you will
> be
> > able to use the pack for some time (several years). This is for LCO, 
> > LMO and NMC. Maybe NCA too (cannot say for sure yet as I do not have 
> > usage
> data
> > from those yet).
> >
> > Basically the combination of low voltage chemistry, cool temperature 
> > during use and shallow cycles will provide long life for the cells. 
> > LFP
> has
> > at least 5 to 10 years more calendar life than those mentioned above.
> Then
> > again LTO-cells should have even slower rate of unhoped side 
> > reactions at the chemistry level compared to LFP. But LTO has hard 
> > time to compete against LFP net cost. Which is dirty cheap.
> >
> > Stationary batteries are designed for the use. Meaning their cost to 
> > buffer each kWh and provide power is much much less than the EV type
> cells.
> > Currently for large utility scale units the cost to buffer is around 
> > one cent per kWh.
> >
> > -Jukka
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2016-09-23 8:45 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :
> >
> >> I believe batteries, and Li-ion as well as future designs will not
> degrade
> >> much for a decade and more when properly managed. Understand that
> 'Lithium
> >> batteries" covers a large and disparate group of designs. So, any
> comment
> >> can be quibbled over.
> >>
> >> What is known now, a loss of 85% would probably be accompanied by
> physical
> >> and chemical damage that might render them unreliable at greater loss.
> But
> >> certainly Li-ion if managed well could be useful down to 30% SOC.
> >>
> >> The rub here is "well managed." Proper management will depend on 
> >> the
> exact
> >> electrode and electrolyte chemistry, the construction of the cell, 
> >> temperature of operation and storage, particularly at high SOC%. 
> >> and so on.
> >>
> >> Anything we say is dependent on a host of variables.  I think the 
> >> body
> of
> >> knowledge will grow and all these difficulties will drop in
> significance.
> >>
> >> You did not say in what application the degradation to 70% SOC 
> >> would
> occur
> >> but safe to assume you meant in cars. Tesla already committed to
> creating
> >> rid based applications for "degraded" batteries. Their belief is 
> >> that stationary applications are far easier on the cells than 
> >> mobile and automotive apps. Allowing us to believe there 

Re: [EVDL] Current limiting

[George Tyler via EV]

In the early days of switchmode  PSU's it was common to use N.T.C. resistors
for inrush current limiting, later on we went away from that. Look at PC
power supplies from the '80s and '90s at least, they have a 1 Ohm, 5 W
resistor in series (for a 230Vac PSU. The problem with an NTC is they stay
hot for a while after disconnection, if the power is re-applied 1/2 a second
later there is no inrush current limiting action, the NTC often got blown
apart if this happened. I fixed many. The 5W resistors used also have a hard
life, they have to be rated for the peak current and time, many of the
square section cement resistors don't last, generally the round wire wound
resistors where you can see the shape of the wire work. Problem with a light
bulb is the characteristic is exactly opposite to what is required. Bigger
PSU's use a big resistor shunter by relay contacts or an SCR, this is a much
better solution, often a micro controls the  SCR so it can do it
intelligently.  Designed a UPS in about '85, for the higher power rating of
this I did not use anything as all had they problems with some 1000's of
microfarads smoothing caps, I just used an SCR and a circuit that controller
where in the sine wave mains cycle it was turned on, this actually resilted
in much lower peak current and stress.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2016 4:31 AM
To: Mike Nickerson; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Current limiting

Mike Nickerson wrote:

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Re: [EVDL] EV-Spotting in London

[George Tyler via EV]

If you drive through the countryside (like I did last year) you will see
solar huge farms. One was a fiels of solar panels about 1km long by 500m
wide. Thought UK was the worst place for solar due to the weather

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Lawton via EV
Sent: Thursday, 19 May 2016 9:33 a.m.
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV-Spotting in London

Yes, London England. Well, I thought the price alone would steer drivers
toward EVs, even if eco concerns did not.

Today I saw more rooftop solar around Bristol than I've seen in all of VA,
NJ, AZ and Bahamas combined. Maybe electricity is very pricey.

Bruce


Bruce
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[EVDL] Japanese leaf charging cable

[George Tyler via EV]

Hi, here in NZ many people are importing used Nissan Leaf's from Japan.
Japan has different voltage and frequency to the supply here, leaf charging
cable: 200V 60hz, NZ voltage 230V 50Hz. There is a small transformer in the
cable that has to be changed, but opening the cable means that it has to be
re-certified. Does anyone know what the charging cable electronics does? 

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Eloise is the cutest solar + electric vehicle ambassador (v)

[George Tyler via EV]

Makes perfect sense, after every hour they are producing 2 kW more, so after
10 hours they are producing 20 kW, after 1000 hrs, 2 MW!

In NZ we have this kind of mistake on TV, from our energy conservation
authority, EECA! They just seem incapable of understanding the basic
science, They employ mainly people with political expertise, not engineers.
What chance do politicians or even business  stand of making the right
legislative decisions when this is the standard of their thinking. I get
really frustrated...

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
via EV
Sent: Monday, 22 February 2016 7:16 a.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Eloise is the cutest solar + electric vehicle
ambassador (v)

"Right now we're generating 2 kilowatts per hour at my house."

Good grief.  Who wrote that script?  Will his or her next one say that the
writer's ICEV's engine produces 250 horsepower per hour?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery

[George Tyler via EV]

Have you guys heard of lithium-sulphur cells?
http://www.oxisenergy.com I am travelling in the UK at the moment, and the 
friend I am staying with told me that this company is not far from where we 
are, we are going to arrange a visit.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV
Sent: Friday, 19 June 2015 8:45 p.m.
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery

Cor,

From an electrochemical point of view, the laptop fires were due to components 
in the cells (electrolyte and separator primarily), that ignited from an 
internal short, but were sustained by the components gassing off oxygen at 
higher temperatures, causing a runaway situation.  More heat = more oxygen = 
more heat=...  If the chemicals/construction didn't self support combustion, 
then little dendritic shorts would be less consequential.

One of the reasons that LFP cells fare better is a much higher temperature when 
self supporting combustion happens. There is about 100°C more head room.  That 
doesn't mean they won't burn up fast though given the right
conditions

The family of lithium ion cell has the capability, when designed and operated 
properly, not to have any loss of charge from just sitting.  This is not true 
for some other battery chemistries - lead acid in particular.
You can't apply  the understanding of one to the other in this respect.

The trickle charge subject is similar.  PbSO4 cells benefit from a light 
trickle charge to make up for the gradual loss of sitting.  The same 
treatment will destroy Li ion cells, but there is no need because they don't 
lose their charge  - if they are made right and their operating systems are 
right.


On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

 Michael,

 I think you are starting to get it, even though you express it in a 
 peculiar way.

 In real life, nothing is 100% pure. Every material and every surface 
 has
 *some* contamination,
 even in a clean room. They just make sure that what is still there is 
 small enough or in low enough numbers that it does not really hurt 
 their yield, but they still need to test every circuit since it still 
 may be unacceptably damaged by the unavoidable contamination.

 Same in battery manufacturing - it only needs to be clean enough that 
 the effect introduced by contamination is low enough not to harm the 
 operation of the cell and for example the self-discharge is within 
 specification.
 Have you ever seen a modern cell manufacturing facility? It is almost 
 as good as a clean room just as all modern electronics production is 
 done in very clean environment just to avoid failures.

 I do not know enough about the chemistry of the battery physics to 
 judge if there is an inherent mechanism of self-discharge. I do know 
 that a lot of battery parameters are a trade-off, for example you can 
 buy batteries with higher power but with lower capacity or you can buy 
 higher capacity with lower power (in the same form factor).
 Similar trade-offs exist between high and low temp operation.
 It may be that the basic chemical reaction does not have a 
 self-discharge mechanism and that a theoretical perfect Li-Ion cell 
 has no self-discharge.
 But that is the same as saying that a theoretical perfectly sealed ICE 
 engine does not need new motor oil ever, because it does not leak. 
 Still I check my oil level from time to time, even though I know that 
 it does not leak now, I could be losing oil and damage the engine if I 
 do not keep an eye on the level once in a while.

 The well-documented laptop Lithium battery fires were actually 
 attributed to excessive contamination of battery cells during 
 production, which could even cause short circuits in the cells and 
 thermal runaway around those (large) contaminations.
 So - the result of this is that no matter how good manufactured, any 
 Li-Ion cell will have some self-discharge. High quality cells will 
 have lower numbers than more sloppy produced cells and variation of 
 self-discharge will also be an indication of quality and consistency 
 of the manufacturing process, but saying that there is no such thing 
 while everyone who is working with batteries tells you that it does 
 exist is, well, denying reality.

 Hope this clarifies,

 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless

 office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water
 XoIP   +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info
 www.proxim.com


 This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential 
 and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you 
 received this message in error, please delete it and notify the 
 sender.  Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of 
 any part of this message is prohibited.


 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross 
 

Re: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

[George Tyler via EV]

It is clearly the sun causing the problem. Some years ago I was designing
RFID readers for cow tags, I found that the tags themselves were sensitive
to sunlight! In fact, any chip that does not have sunlight positively
excluded is this meter will probably have a chip bonded to the bottom of
the pcb directly with a blob of sealer on the top.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, 18 March 2015 10:56 a.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Watch Malfunctioning meter. on YouTube

Malfunctioning meter.: https://youtu.be/xNy8IOlRkII

This is the correct url.  Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

[George Tyler via EV]

Well, if you had Elon Musk on your side maybe he, with his resources, could
get this changed, as well as other laws around EV's

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
via EV
Sent: Friday, 26 September 2014 3:21 p.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation

I too have tried to get HOV stickers, but the agency providing the sticker
have made a very narrow interpretation of the California laws, where it
indicates that all qualified vehicles should get a sticker (clearly meaning:
all zero emissions vehicles) the agency has changed their interpretation and
enforcement to only give stickers to vehicles where the *manufacturer* of
the vehicle has certified that the vehicle qualifies (meets a set of rules
that they have defined).
I am doubting whether this was an attempt to kill interest in EVs in general
by making it unattractive (difficult) to qualify for HOV stickers, but it
certainly causes all pre-existing and self-converted vehicles to become
disqualified from HOV stickers, which sounds arbitrary.
Anyway, the interpretation of the agency causes this and it seems that it is
an incorrect interpretation of the law. Either a lot of pressure on this
agency or a lawsuit might be needed to change this interpretation - or
enough politicians that hear from their (EV driving) constituency and make
it explicit to the agency that they must issue stickers to *all* EVs.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Stephen via EV
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 3:06 PM
To: HARSHA GODAVARI; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation

How about getting a conversion to be recognized with the same incentives
that are provided with most new EV sales? I converted my own car, at my own
full cost, with no tax breaks or other incentives, and now can not even get
a HOV sticker in California, even though the CA DMV and state BAR have both
verified it as a pure electric vehicle and is fully exempt from any future
smog certification.

In the end, I did it for the savings in fuel costs, the silence, and it
leaves me open to do whatever performance increases I want without any
limitation (e.g. smog certification. It would be nice though to get to use
that car pool lane ;-). from what I see, most EV buyers in CA are simply
buying their way to a more convenient commute.

Regards,
Stephen

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:58 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:


 - Original Message -
 From: George Tyler via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: 'brucedp5' bruce...@operamail.com, 'Electric Vehicle Discussion 
 List' ev@lists.evdl.org
 Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:43:05 -0600 (MDT)
 Subject: [EVDL] co-operation

  In this forum we have all the skills necessary to set up a franchise
 that is in it's self  not for profit but works to further the
development
 of a market for converted cars which  could be a fraction of the cost
of
 the current manufacturer's cars. This would really get things going.

 Could you elaborate a little on this. I am a little confused (senior 
 moment..my natural state) as to what you are saying. Thanks.

 regards
 hg
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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

[George Tyler via EV]

Yes, so take it out of the realm of DIY by having a world wide not for
profit company that does it, all you guys shareholders. In this company an
individual can make profits on conversions done for others.
It's the same in NZ, incentives are only for registered companies.
These companies told the government that they would pick up the incentive
payments themselves instead of passing it on to the consumers, government
agreed, so now the incentive does not make it cheaper. This is for home
insulation.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV
Sent: Saturday, 27 September 2014 5:12 a.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation

 From: Stephen via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 How about getting a conversion to be recognized with the same 
 incentives that are provided with most new EV sales?

YES!

Unfortunately, governments *rarely* provide incentives to DIYers. I think
they feel there is too much potential for fraud and abuse -- people can and
will claim all sorts of stuff, and the government can only afford to qualify
mass-market *designs*, not individual implementations. Also, they have no
way of telling if a DIY system is even functional or safe.

I went through this regarding domestic hot water in the 70s. They wouldn't
provide the tax break to DIYers, only to professionally-installed systems.
Now, I see the same thing with PV systems.

I don't have an easy answer to satisfying the government's need to get
decent quality for its investment. Perhaps DIYers could be certified
with a test or something - less rigorous than a contractor's license, but
able to weed out those who would do crappy installations that would stop
working in short order.

 At any public relations luncheon, the quality of the food is inversely
related to the quality of the information. -- Earl Ubell
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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[EVDL] co-operation

[George Tyler via EV]

Elon Musk says that America is the easiest place to get any new thing going, 
and he is probably right. There are more EV conversions in USA than anywhere 
else, and there are people doing it commercially. Why has this market not taken 
off? In this forum we have all the skills necessary to set up a franchise that 
is in it's self not for profit but works to further the development of a market 
for converted cars which could be a fraction of the cost of the current 
manufacturer's cars. This would really get things going.
Someone could speak to Elon Musk, get some help, financially and in 
other ways. With other big players they are only interested in the money they 
can make out of it, but Elon aims to create an electric car industry, does not 
really care about the money for it's own sake, only for what it can do to make 
a difference to the world. We should work with this as much as possible as the 
people on here and Elon have this in common, something unique, it is too good 
an opportunity to miss.

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Re: [EVDL] Dissimilar metals on Headyways?

[George Tyler via EV]

I had a look at the headway factory interconnects, they are plated steel I 
think as they are magnetic, could be nickel but they were strongly attracted to 
a magnet so I think steel. 1mm thick, 20mm wide.


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Re: [EVDL] co-operation

[George Tyler via EV]

Well, I am also a bit senior! Elon Musk wants to see an electric car
industry develop. Current new EV's are the only way in which most people can
get them, but they are too expensive for most people. The conversions could
cost less, there are companies doing conversions but not main stream. Tesla
(Elon) wants to see basically only electrics on the road, he could help many
here to get into the main stream market and further his aims by achieving a
critical mass.
If there was an organisation that approved conversions, that would
advertise on TV? Imagine, tell everyone they can buy a converted car that
would be like new for a cheaper price, guaranteed by a trust fund (part of
the sale price goes into the trust account), get the government to extend
the rebates to these as well? Tesla could supply
batteries/motors/controllers as a kit, mass produced they would be cheaper
too. Put a tax on sale of 2nd hand ICE cars to fund the rebates on electric,
the price of cars would fall too. 
This could be added to as well, all I have at the moment.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of HARSHA GODAVARI via
EV
Sent: Friday, 26 September 2014 8:58 a.m.
To: EV
Subject: Re: [EVDL] co-operation


- Original Message -
From: George Tyler via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: 'brucedp5' bruce...@operamail.com, 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:43:05 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [EVDL] co-operation

 In this forum we have all the skills necessary to set up a franchise that
is in it's self  not for profit but works to further the development of a
market for converted cars which  could be a fraction of the cost of the
current manufacturer's cars. This would really get things going.

Could you elaborate a little on this. I am a little confused (senior
moment..my natural state) as to what you are saying. Thanks.

regards
hg
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Re: [EVDL] Dissimilar metals on Headyways?

[George Tyler via EV]

Why not just buy the link plates that headway sell, made for the purpose.
Get the cell mounts at the same time?

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV
Sent: Tuesday, 23 September 2014 11:41 a.m.
To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dissimilar metals on Headyways?

If there is a platting house nearby, they won't charge much for a basket of
copper bits.  Could be far less trouble than manual tinning.  Nickel might
be better choice in that case.  Of a flash of nickel under the tin. I would
do tin/lead dip if I was not concerned about ROHS and had a plater still
working with that. It is a much better coating in so many ways.  If you
could find an old solder pot (for tinning leads and such) you could do that
yourself for smaller parts.

On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 3:06 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 On 22 Sep 2014 at 7:55, Roland via EV wrote:

  You can get the plated copper bus bars in long lengths and cut them 
  to
 size.
  You will note that the cut ends will show copper.  In wet locations, 
  coat these cut ends with silver paint or epoxy silver paint.

 Why not tin them with solder?  I would think that that would bond and 
 protect better.

 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator

 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL 
 Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me.  
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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] Lithium batteries direct from China

[George Tyler via EV]

Have you ever tested Enerdel batteries?

Lee Hart wrote:
My earliest ones were from a group buy organized by Victor Tikhonov in 2003.
They were white prismatic Lithium-Cobalt cells, in both 90ah and 100ah
models. Some of the 100ah cells were OK (maybe 3 out of 4 worked, but didn't
meet specs). *All* of the 90ah cells were junk. Some leaked, but the main
problems were low amphour capacity and excessive internal resistance.
Resistance on the 90ah cells was so high that they overheated even with a 25
amp load.

Maybe some of the purchasers abused their batteries and caused their
failures; but I certainly didn't.

I've continued to borrow, barter, and buy various lithiums for testing. 
Prismatics and cylindrical, LiCo, LiMn, LiFe etc. They have
*consistently* failed to meet specs. Typically, their amphour capacity and
internal resistance are out of spec, with large variations between cells,
and a number of bad cells mixed in with the good. The most recent ones were
GBS 100ah LiFe cells, tested just last year. The only exception has been
A123 3.2v 2.5ah LiFe cylindrical cells; they were consistently good.

I'm forever hopeful that the manufacturers will get their act together 
and start delivering an honest quality product, and stand behind them with a
warranty. But so far, if I'd spent good money for a full pack of any of
these batteries (except A123), I would have been screwed.

At the moment, I'm considering getting some Nissan Leaf cells to test. 
I'm guessing that Nissan is likely to have made a *significant* effort to
get a good, quality product. I just have to make sure I'm not getting
Nissan's QC rejects!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading Or do these great deeds, worth
repeating.
-- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

[George Tyler via EV]

Also, the Prius uses a drive chain from the power split device to a shaft
carrying a gear which drives the diff.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Thursday, 7 August 2014 5:18 a.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: motorcycle drivetrain?

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
 Ben, autos stopped using chain or belt drives 80 years ago ...

Well, lots of cars still have timing chains. They last longer than belts.
:-)

--
We cannot waste time. We can only waste ourselves.
-- George Matthew Adams
--
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Re: [EVDL] Dissimilar metals on Headyways?

[George Tyler via EV]

Are you sure the ends are aluminium? Without the screw terminals they are 
connected by nickel strips spot welded to the ends, not sure you can spot weld 
nickel to aluminium. I think they are plated steel.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of via EV
Sent: Wednesday, 17 September 2014 3:34 p.m.
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] Dissimilar metals on Headyways?



I'm building up some headway packs.
 
My understanding is they have aluminum end caps in the bare state, but when you 
get them with screw terminals the screw terminals are steel and sit on the 
aluminum.
 
Might this make it better to wire them together with Aluminum plates rather 
than Copper plates? Does solder dipping the plate help? Thanks for the advice.
 
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Re: [EVDL] Dissimilar metals on Headyways?

[George Tyler via EV]

I have both types, just checked them,  no sign of aluminium anywhere


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV
Sent: Thursday, 18 September 2014 11:43 a.m.
To: evdragra...@email.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Dissimilar metals on Headyways?

How about a photo or spec sheet to look at?  You say Headway, do they only
make on sized and form of cell?

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 11:34 PM, via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:



 I'm building up some headway packs.

 My understanding is they have aluminum end caps in the bare state, but 
 when you get them with screw terminals the screw terminals are steel 
 and sit on the aluminum.

 Might this make it better to wire them together with Aluminum plates 
 rather than Copper plates? Does solder dipping the plate help? Thanks 
 for the advice.

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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

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Re: [EVDL] BiPolar NiMH (was: Kawasaki Concept J 3wheel GIGACELL powered EV)

[George Tyler via EV]

I can only talk about the D Cell battery of the original Prius, I have
worked on many of those, changed many cells, tested them to see what is
wrong, etc. I have not seen ANY lose capacity. What happens is some cells
suffer from increased self discharge. I measure at 1.270 V, this is about
where they are normally. Leave it charging at this voltage on a precision 4
wire charger until the current stabilizes. A good cell has 0.01 mA leakage,
one that causes a problem will be 5mA. Some cells are 50mA.
When a car has been driven until the wheels stop turning the pack is
wrecked, most of the cells are bad, many have leaked. I think this a due to
overcharging. Any cell that gets reversed very quickly loses electrolyte,
avoid these conditions and they have a long life, of course it it the best
cells that are damaged by overcharging. I have one car that still has the
original battery apart from a few cells I have changed, this was made in
1998. The Prius has no balancing mechanism, apart from charging the whole
pack so that the high cells are overcharged.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV
Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2014 2:12 p.m.
To: Jan Steinman; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BiPolar NiMH (was: Kawasaki Concept J 3wheel GIGACELL
powered EV)

LFP I know about, and they can provide more than 2000 cycles if you make the
same sort of effort as one does with Lead.  Charge them right, don't run
them too low, ask too much of them when they are cold, etc.  You can ruin
any battery.  There is a loss of capacity if LFP just sit, of maybe 1% a
year (I am reflecting some stuff I saw on EVTV), number of cycles does not
degrade. I make a distinction between the aging/degradation and misuse.

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:

  From: Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 
  NiMH has been largely eclipsed by Li-Ion.

 Except in lifetime. Nickel technology is 3,000+ charge/discharge 
 cycles if well cared for, Li-ion what, 1,000 max? And nickel cells 
 have about the same capacity until they seriously break, whereas Li-ions
degrade, no?

  You can't solve a problem with the same kind of thinking that 
 created it in the first place. -- Albert Einstein
  Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

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Re: [EVDL] Electric bike information

[George Tyler via EV]

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peter Eckhoff via EV
Sent: Thursday, 28 August 2014 5:50 a.m.
To: Larry Gales; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric bike information

Hello Larry,

This is a nice summary and I did not see any errors. ...

I tried a geared bike and stripped a nylon(?) gear.  The bike, motor, 
lead acid pack and me weighed in over 300 pounds.   That is a lot of 
weight to put on the teeth of a nylon gear.  I bought a bearing puller 
to pull the two parts apart to get at the gear...   If I had to do it 
again, I would go with a non-geared bike.  The bike I bought was a conversion 
and used a heavier steel bike frame...

it seems that often the nylon gears strip due to overheating. You don't have to 
raise the temperature much to weaken them. There are steel replacements 
available for some hub motors, but they are more noisy. At low speeds there is 
a thing that happens, current limit is basically on battery current, so if you 
are running at full throttle at 10 km/hr up a hill then your battery current 
may be ok, but the motor current is another story due to PWM.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Vehicle-apartheid! RI law punishes EV hybrid drivers

[George Tyler via EV]

Funny, I phoned the council not long ago to ask them to do something about 
speeding cars in the rural dead end street past my house. They said they would 
only do it if someone was killed or injured. I know of other similar events 
where people were killed before they changed anything. It's all based on 
statistics. 
How many of the general population have been electrocuted by electric 
cars? 

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via EV
Sent: Thursday, 21 August 2014 8:24 p.m.
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Vehicle-apartheid! RI law punishes EV  hybrid drivers

This supposed electrocution hazard posed by electric vehicles is an all too 
common myth.

First off, commercial EVs have an inertia switch which cuts the main 
contractors at the pack. You are in a wreck, the power is automatically cut off 
by the inertia switch. The only component with HV is the traction battery 
itself.

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Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?

[George Tyler via EV]

That Mustang is probably worth more than a new electric car in some parts of
the world. Sell it and buy a car that would make a better electric with the
money?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/auction-748754922.htm


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Friday, 1 August 2014 8:47 a.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?

Ben Goren via EV wrote:
 Thanks, Jerry. A 200+ mile BEV Ghia certainly sounds like a fantastic 
 car...

The Ghia happened to have several attractive attributes for an EV. It was
very light, it was reasonable aerodynamics, and enough room for batteries.
John Bryan's Ghia was one example. He carefully measured the efficiency of
his Ghia, and got it under 100 watthours/mile.

That's good enough for a 100-mile range even on lead-acid batteries. The
only cars that do better are things like James Worden's Sunrise, which was
built as an EV from the ground up, and got as low as 60 watthours per mile.

 But I went ahead and bought the Mustang the day before yesterday.

The Mustang is still a pretty good candidate. It's still a small light car,
and the aerodynamics aren't too terrible. Plus, it's a classic car that many
can appreciate! I believe John Wayland converted one for someone. He's a
genius at building beautiful high-performance conversions -- have you
contacted him for details?

 I'm expecting not much more than a tenth the all-electric miles

A low range expectation makes your job a lot easier. I've been reading this
thread while on vacation, and you have received a lot of great advice. It
must be confusing; but it's better to have too many choices rather than too
few, though it may not seem that way at the time. :-) I'm interested as
well, as I have a small Chevy pickup and have been thinking about exactly
the same sort of conversion.

I don't know much about what Netgain was doing in their solution. If you
have contact information on it, let me know! Given their other products, I'm
sure it was a DC brushed motor. This would be a cheaper approach, and would
deliver far more torque for its size than AC. If their motor had interpoles
or a sepex field, it could also have done regen as easily as an AC motor.

I don't think your hybrid control problems will be nearly as difficult as
you think. The Mustang just has a carburetor and simple throttle linkage.
Add the EV controller's potbox to the accelerator linkage. Then add some
kind of mechanical link that disconnects the throttle linkage from the
carburetor when you switch to EV mode (so you're not pumping 
the gas and flooding the engine when it's not running). Then, provide a
manual switch to select:

- ICE mode: Carburetor linkage connected, EV controller off.
- EV mode: Carburetor linkage disconnected, EV controller on.
   Shift to neutral so you're not forcing the ICE to rotate.
- Hybrid: Bot enable at once.

In hybrid mode, both the ICE and EV motor will naturally provide an amount
of torque controlled by the accelerator pedal. They won't fight each other;
their torques will just add. If you're in ICE mode and driving at some
particular speed and accelerator pedal position and turn on hybrid mode, the
EV motor will add torque, and you will speed up. But your natural response
to lift the gas pedal slightly will correct for it.

If the EV motor/controller has regen, you will get it just by letting up the
gas pedal. You could also shift the transmission to neutral, so as much as
possible of your braking is done by the EV motor.

It won't matter for your car, but in a vehicle with power steering, power
brakes, air conditioning, etc. one could also leave the ICE idling in EV
mode (since the throttle linkage is disconnected). This way, the ICE powers
all the accessories, using a minimal amount of gasoline, while you EV motor
does all the driving.

Thus, you can drive it manually with only a little finesse.

It only gets complicated if you want a system that automatically starts and
stops the ICE, and switches between modes based on some criteria.
--
The definition of research: Shoot the arrow first, and paint the target
around where it lands. -- David Van Baak
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BMWDaimler developing 3-Hour Wireless Inductive EVSE for i3 EV

[George Tyler via EV]

I have done a lot of transformer and inductor design over the years, always
said you can't focus or direct a magnetic field, apart from ordinary
magnetic materials of course. On day I found something that someone had put
together on the web: He pointed out that if you have a resonant coil in a
magnetic field then the field it creates cancels the field around the
outside, and enhances it in the center on the coil. The effect is just like
sucking in the field into the coil!
I can always learn.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Martin WINLOW via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, 23 July 2014 8:19 p.m.
To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BMWDaimler developing 3-Hour Wireless Inductive
EVSE for i3 EV

Calling Nikola Tesla! Calling Nikola Tesla! Come back! All is forgiven!

I bet *he'd* have something to say on this subject! MW


On 21 Jul 2014, at 20:24, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

 From: Peri Hartman
 Is it possible to use multiple coils to focus the beam?
 
 Magnetic fields are devilishly difficult to direct or focus.
 
 With electricity, we have great conductors (copper, silver, etc.) and
great insulators (air, plastics, etc.) There are *many* orders of magnitude
difference in their conductivity, so we can tightly control where the
current flows.
 
 With magnetics, we have no good conductors, and no good insulators. It's
as if our best electrical conductor was carbon (which we make resistors out
of), and our best insulator was water (which conducts pretty well,
especially if dirty). Imagine trying to make a circuit work where the
conductors are all carbon, and it's submerged in water, which partially
shorts everything to everything else!
 
 (Superconductors can give us good magnetic insulators; but they don't work
except at cryogenic temperatures).
 
 I don't know wave theory but I believe directional radio transmitters 
 work by having two or more antennas. Can something similar be done with
inductive coils?
 
 Yes; sort of. Every electric field inevitably has a magnetic field, and
vice versa. That's why we call it electromagnetics. However, for these
fields to act like waves, which we can focus and direct like light, the
frequencies need to be very high. The elements of a directional antenna need
to have dimensions on the order of 1/4 wavelength or more.
 
 Wavelength (in meters) = 300 / Frequency (in MHz). At 100 MHz (the
frequency of FM radio and the old VHF television), the wavelength is about 3
meters -- so a 1/4 wave antenna is about 0.75 meters or 30 long. It's not
too hard to make antennas with multiple elements in parallel to focus and
direct these frequencies (like the traditional TV antennas that look like
giant metal combs).
 
 At 1 MHz (the AM radio broadcast band) the wavelength is about 300 meters;
thus the tremendously high towers needed to effectively transmit it (the
whole tower is the antenna). It's hopeless to make receiving antennas this
big. We have to use far smaller antennas, that are far less efficient and
require substantial amplification to work.
 
 The inductive chargers mentioned here are using 85 KHz. The wavelength is
on the order of 3500 meters! It's impossible to direct such frequencies with
the techniques used for radio antennas.
 
 Vicor makes switchmode converters that operate just over 1 MHz; about the
highest practical frequency for state of the art switchmode converters. They
had to go to heroic lengths to get their transformers to operate with
reasonable efficiency (90%). Such frequencies are not yet practical for high
power converters.
 
 Lower frequency transformers are more efficient. Conventional 60 Hz
transformers can be over 99% efficient, if you use enough copper and iron.
But to do so, they require *very* tight coupling between the primary and
secondary -- minimal gap between them. This is the opposite of the
requirement to have some separation between primary and secondary as imposed
by the wireless charging proponents.
 
 I think the only way to make a practical wireless charger will be to use
more or less ordinary frequencies, and mechanically position the primary and
secondary coils as close as possible. This means either moving the car's
secondary coil or the charging station's primary coil so they touch.
 
 --
 Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
 --
 Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com/controllers.htm now includes the 
 GE EV-1

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Re: [EVDL] How crazy am I?

[George Tyler via EV]

I have been looking at this, seemed to me that for the capacity, smaller
batteries can discharge a higher current, I guess that's why Tesla uses 7000
small cells? R/C batteries are often rated at 90C or even greater, I have
seen 300C. Look at this:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__51838__Turnigy_nano_tech_Ultimate
_6000mah_2S2P_90C_Hardcase_Lipo_Pack.html
6 Ah and 90C gives 540 Amps! From a 2 Cell battery you can wrap your hand
around.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2014 8:21 p.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How crazy am I?

Another factor to consider is that while power capability varies by design,
as a general rule, smaller cells are usually capable of lower power output.

For example, the CALB 40ah cells I mentioned are rated for a maximum
discharge of 2C (80 amps).  At 144v, 80a is 11.5kW.  Allowing for losses,
that's only about 12hp from your motor!

Not being a lithium expert, I don't know how much more than this you can
actually draw before voltage sag really kicks in.  But I'm pretty sure that
pushing them too hard will shorten their lives significantly.

If you expect sporty, Mustang-y EV performance, but don't want to carry
around much of a battery, you'll need to find some cells designed for high
power.

The 90ah Winstons I mentioned are rated for only 1C continuous, but they say
you can draw 10C for 10 seconds.  It looks like you then need to allow at
least 50 seconds of either zero or much lower current for the cell to
recover (how often you can do this isn't clear from the spec).  Other folks
here may know how realistic this is, and/or have some recommendations for
high power lithium cells.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EV LCD Dashboards

[George Tyler via EV]

I thought this was something that I would have liked to be the designer of!

Wireless Advisor
http://elithion.com/diyelectriccar.php#Demo

http://elithion.com/bms_user_interface.php
http://elithion.com/diyelectriccar.php




-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of vincent501 - Vince
via EV
Sent: Sunday, 13 July 2014 3:17 p.m.
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] EV LCD Dashboards

Hi, does anyone know or recommend a PnP lcd instrument panel display for an
std electric conversion say running of canbus. Was looking at the AutoMeter
6021 but cant find it for sale anywhere, i really like the idea of changing
the dash look to show the data that will help me drive. Thanks vince
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Re: [EVDL] Trailer type Range extenders

[George Tyler via EV]

If I was in America I would consider making something like that to hire out
to Tesla owners. or leaf, Mie v etc


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Gales via EV
Sent: Thursday, 10 July 2014 6:27 a.m.
To: ev@lists.evdl.org; SEVA
Subject: [EVDL] Trailer type Range extenders

Trailer type range extenders, either battery or gasoline powered, always
seem to use standard type trailers, where the trailer hitch allows for both
vertical and side-to-side motion, and where the hitch is almost as long as
the trailer itself.  This considerably increases the total length of a
vehicle, and makes it very difficult to back up.

I wonder if a simpler design would work instead:  a very short hitch which
allows some up-and-down flexibility, but no side-to-side motion, and where
the trailer itself rides on a single swivel wheel.  This would significantly
reduce the length of the trailer+hitch combination, and should eliminate the
problem of backing up.

Also, I saw that the BMW i3 has an optional 700 cc gasoline generator to
extend the range of the vehicle.  I have been unable to find the size and
weight of such as engine+generator combination, so let me know if you have
that information:.

Thanks in advance,

--
Larry Gales
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Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road maintenence budget

[George Tyler via EV]

Amazing thing is that even though your fuel tax is so low you still have so
may EV's historically, done more for the development of EV's than any other
country. It must be a great place to live in.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
via EV
Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2014 3:39 p.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas tax is not working to cover the entire road
maintenence budget

What is almost always ignored in these discussions is that road wear is not
the only social negative caused by vehicles.  The list is long, and noise
and air pollution are pretty close to the top.  I'm sure you can think of
many more.

EVs have a positive impact on these factors.  They benefit society more than
ICEVs do.  That's why it makes perfect sense for them to be exempted from
some portion (if not all) of the taxes levied on vehicles that pollute and
make noise.

The US currently pays some of the world's lowest fuel taxes.  Redefining the
fuel tax as a vehicle impact tax would be the first step towards setting
them at more realistic levels.  It would also clarify why EV drivers should
get a break on the tax (and I definitely think we should).

However, given the current US political climate, in which many cities can't
even levy enough taxes to pay their police and road crews, an increase in
the fuel tax is probably a non-starter.

About the only solution I can think of - and even this might not fly
politically - is to charge a yearly license renewal fee based on the weight
of the vehicle.  (I think some states already do this.  Others have license
fees based on the value of the vehicle.)  Ideallly this would include
exemptions or credits for EVs.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: [EVDL] [EVADC Listserve] Exploding cell

[George Tyler via EV]

Was the module you were charging in a pack? i.e. was it compressed mechanically 
by the end plates? There modules will explode if you charge them without 
pressure being applied to the sides. I have also seen modules that are properly 
mounted that have had an internal explosion in a dead cell. The cell it's self 
was totally dry, all the water having been converted into hydrogen and oxygen.
My 4 Priuses are all the NHW10 original Japanese only models with D 
cells. I have done a lot of work on these and have never seen a exploded cell, 
all that happens to these is that the cells leak electrolyte if they get to hot.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga via EV
Sent: Thursday, 19 June 2014 3:01 a.m.
To: ev...@yahoogroups.com
Cc: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [EVADC Listserve] Exploding cell

The prius has 28 modules, and each module (about the size of a paper back book, 
only taller) has 6 cells.  Each cell is about a 5 AH cell.  So the module 
voltage was about 7.5  volts.



Bob



*From:* ev...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ev...@yahoogroups.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 18, 2014 9:20 AM
*To:* ev...@yahoogroups.com
*Cc:* ev@lists.evdl.org
*Subject:* Re: [EVADC Listserve] Exploding cell






Were you testing a pack of cells, if so, how many cells total in the pack and 
what is pack voltage? Just curious Bob, I don't know much about NimH.



On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu [EVADC]  
ev...@yahoogroups.com wrote:



Kaboom goes the cell!



Was testing a battery module from my Prius on a battery analyzer.  The test 
plan begins with a several  minute no-load, then a 1C load for up to 1 hour, 
then a several minute no-load, then a charge at 1C until peak voltage is 
detected.



After 3 minutes, a cell exploded that could be heard all over the building.



Best I can tell, there was a less than perfect connection to the battery 
terminal.  The initial 1C load only lasted 3 seconds (when it determined that 
the low-voltage had been reached).  So then, 10 minutes later it began a 1C 
charge (on what was a full battery).  And we all know that charging a full NimH 
battery will explode.



Lesson learned.  1) Hang around and WAIT for  the initial discharge and WATCH 
that it is going correctly before leaving the test.

2) Always assume a battery may explode and do testing where it will do no 
damage.



Programmers:  When programming battery analyzers consider a bad connection on 
the DIScharge cycle that might give an erroneous indication of a discharged 
battery and fault the test.  Do not then continue to the charge cycle.



Bob, WB4APR








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Re: [EVDL] Exploding cell

[George Tyler via EV]

Cell voltages actually drop after they are fully charged, less so at high
rates like the 3C of the in-car equalisation charge of the early prius ,
charge termination often involves detecting a -delta V. the Ni-mih cells in
a Prius often suffer from differential high self discharge currents and get
badly out of balance, correcting this involves a 3C charge of a few times
the capacity with a lot of heat generated.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Thursday, 19 June 2014 4:11 a.m.
To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Exploding cell

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
 Kaboom goes the cell!

What kind of charger was being used? Why didn't it notice that the cell
voltage was high, and shut down early?

Some commercial chargers are amazingly stupid. I have a cordless drill with
nimh batteries. Its charger blindly charges for 2 hours and turns off --
regardless of the battery voltage!
--
Life is basically simple. You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works.
You do more of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it.
Then you do something else. The trick is the doing something else.
-- Tom Peters
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Re: [EVDL] Thermistor to use with 7cell Nimh pack.

[George Tyler via EV]

The original Prius (NHW10, the one only sold in Japan) used 2 different
thermistors, there is a string with 1 thermistor per cell and another 4
thermistors per whole 1/2 pack of 120 cells. The 1 per cell thermistors work
very suddenly, almost like a switch and are all in series so are monitored
as a whole. All you know out of that is if any cell is above about 55 deg C.
The other 4 are monitored individually and are spread through the pack.
These are pretty linear in response and tell the computer what the
temperature of the pack is. 
The cells are Panasonic HRR650 D cells. This is the Panasonic
manual.
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/Panasonic_NiMH_ChargeMethod
s.pdf

I think it's these: http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/418/tyco_srp120-204974.pdf
Not sure which one, but they measure about 1 Ohm at room temp.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Monday, 2 June 2014 8:08 a.m.
To: Lawrence Rhodes; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thermistor to use with 7cell Nimh pack.

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
 I'm building a small 7 cell pack with two strings (14 total) of Nimh 
 4ah. I'll be using a generic 10 buck charger designed for 7 cells.
 350 ma. I need to protect the pack. Is there a specific Thermistor 
 that triggers at the right voltage to protect the pack?

You don't want to charge nimh cells in parallel. As they approach full,
their voltage *falls*. The falling voltage of the fully charged cell
prevents the one in parallel with it from reaching full.

The simplest way to get around this is to add a series resistor (or
something with resistance) in series with each string. The voltage drop
across it allows each string to independently reach full. However, then
you have to monitor each string separately, to know when it reaches full, so
you know when to stop charging.

A 10-dollar charger probably has no brains. It probably mindlessly applies
some trickle current forever, and never shuts off. Nicads could tolerate
this, but it is bad for the life of nimh cells.

The best algorithms for charging nimh cells involve looking for the voltage
peak near full charge, and then shutting off. Or, some use a sensitive
thermistor to sense cell temperature, and shut off when it begins to rise.
Or, count amphours, and stop when you have put back 110% or so of the charge
removed.
--
I view this year's failure as next year's opportunity. Failures are not
something to be avoided. You want them to happen as quickly as you can, so
you can make progress rapidly. -- Gordon Moore
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