Re: SpinLaunch

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Hmmm.  I was envisioning them throwing up a spherical rocket that got 
high enough that it didn't need streamlining while being boosted up to 
orbital speed.


Brent

On 12/11/2021 6:23 AM, John Clark wrote:

And then there is this:

Spinlaunch: BUSTED! 

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 




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Re: SpinLaunch

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Although you're right about electronics withstanding the accelerations 
of the slinger, rocket motors are not usually so sturdy.  It may take 
some development to make them work and survive.  Hypergolic rockets have 
been used in air-to-air weapons and they could withstand 50g axially.  
But hypergolics are not as efficient and pose handling risks.


Brent

On 12/11/2021 6:05 AM, John Clark wrote:



On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 7:39 AM smitra  wrote:

>///In fact, it's impossible to reach orbit this way, as any orbit
would
have to contain the point it left the device from and it would
have to
have the same velocity vector there (in a inertial coordinate
system in
which the Earth rotates). So, any such orbit would have to cross the
Earth's surface. A rocket motor has to be used after launch to change
the orbit. A hyperbolic escape trajectory is, of course, possible
without using a rocket engine./


The article does say "a booster affixed to the payload will then give 
it an extra push to guide it into its orbit". If you gave the payload 
a small kick when it's at its high point in its orbit you could raise 
its low point enough to avoid the atmosphere. And if you could just 
give it enough of a headstart  that a one or two stage rocket could do 
the work of a three stage rocket that would be a huge advantage



Can Spinlaunch Throw Rockets Into Space? 
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAczd3mt3X0>


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>

pio










    On 11-12-2021 00:29, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote:
> Going up "tens of thousands of feet" is only a tiny part of energy
> needed for low Earth orbit.
>
> Brent
>
> On 12/10/2021 2:04 PM, John Clark wrote:
>
>> SpinLaunch: Company hurls satellites into space using giant,
>> spinning machine [1]
>>
>> John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis [2]
>>
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>> [3].
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<https://bigthink.com/the-future/spinlaunch-company-hurls-satellites-into-space-using-giant-spinning-machine/?utm_source=mailchimputm_medium=emailutm_campaign=weeklynewsletter>
> [2] https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis
> [3]
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Re: SpinLaunch

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Going up "tens of thousands of feet" is only a tiny part of energy 
needed for low Earth orbit.


Brent

On 12/10/2021 2:04 PM, John Clark wrote:
SpinLaunch: Company hurls satellites into space using giant, spinning 
machine 



 John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 



slx
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Re: NYTimes.com: U.S. Covid Deaths Get Even Redder

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Look on the bright side.  The average IQ of the country is going up.

Brent

On 12/6/2021 5:15 AM, John Clark wrote:
More proof, as if more proof is necessary, that thanks to 
Trump,Republicans have become*/STUPID/:*


"/40 percent of Republican adults remain unvaccinated, compared with 
about 10 percent of Democratic adults./ [...] ///In October, 25 out of 
every 100,000 residents of heavily Trump counties died from Covid, 
more than three times higher than the rate in heavily Biden counties 
(7.8 per 100,000). October was the fifth consecutive month that the 
percentage gap between the death rates in Trump counties and Biden 
counties widened/."

=

From The New York Times:

U.S. Covid Deaths Get Even Redder

The partisan gap in Covid’s death toll has grown faster over the past 
month than at any previous point.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/08/briefing/covid-death-toll-red-america.html?smid=em-share
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Re: The James Webb telescope

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Why would it take large thrust.  Low thrust over more time should do as 
well.


Brent

On 12/6/2021 2:50 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
The deployed system would not hold up under the large thrust required 
to get the system to the L2 point.


LC

On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 12:39:50 PM UTC-6 Brent wrote:

I wonder if they considered deploying the sun shield in low Earth
orbit, where it could be repaired and then boosting off to the
Lagrange-2 point?

Brent


On 12/5/2021 8:21 AM, John Clark wrote:

Two weeks from Wednesday the long delayed 10 billion dollar James
Webb telescope will finally be launched that could revolutionize
our understanding of the universe; because native Hawaiian
barbarians destroyed the 30 meter telescope which should've
become operational several years ago but now never will, Web will
be the first of a new generation of huge super sophisticated
observatories. But I've got my fingers crossed, and the terror
won't stop with a successful launch but will continue for the
next 29 days. I'm especially worried about the delicate 5 layered
70 foot by 47 foot sunshield required to keep the telescope cold
so it can detect the infrared light it was designed to find.
Something that big obviously can't fit into the nosecone of a
rocket so it must be tightly folded up origami style and be
unfurled in space, but to do that 8 motors, 140 actuators, 150
latches, and 400 pulleys must behave exactly as they were
designed to and do so in precise synchronization or the sunshield
will tear and the entire project will fail. And, because it will
not be in low earth orbit but at the Lagrange-2 point more than
900,000 miles from Earth, there is no possibility of an astronaut
repair mission as happened with the Hubble telescope if something
goes wrong. After 29 days the major dangers will be behind us but
it will still take another 5 months for the telescope to cool
down and be properly aligned before it can start doing any science.

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis


twj
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Re: The James Webb telescope

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

I wonder if they considered deploying the sun shield in low Earth orbit, 
where it could be repaired and then boosting off to the Lagrange-2 point?


Brent

On 12/5/2021 8:21 AM, John Clark wrote:
Two weeks from Wednesday the long delayed 10 billion dollar James Webb 
telescope will finally be launched that could revolutionize our 
understanding of the universe; because native Hawaiian barbarians 
destroyed the 30 meter telescope which should've become operational 
several years ago but now never will, Web will be the first of a new 
generation of huge super sophisticated observatories. But I've got my 
fingers crossed, and the terror won't stop with a successful launch 
but will continue for the next 29 days. I'm especially worried about 
the delicate 5 layered 70 foot by 47 foot sunshield required to keep 
the telescope cold so it can detect the infrared light it was designed 
to find. Something that big obviously can't fit into the nosecone of a 
rocket so it must be tightly folded up origami style and be unfurled 
in space, but to do that 8 motors, 140 actuators, 150 latches, and 400 
pulleys must behave exactly as they were designed to and do so in 
precise synchronization or the sunshield will tear and the entire 
project will fail. And, because it will not be in low earth orbit but 
at the Lagrange-2 point more than 900,000 miles from Earth, there is 
no possibility of an astronaut repair mission as happened with the 
Hubble telescope if something goes wrong. After 29 days the major 
dangers will be behind us but it will still take another 5 months for 
the telescope to cool down and be properly aligned before it can start 
doing any science.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 



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Re: NYTimes.com: Want to Save the Earth? We Need a Lot More Elon Musks.

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

And colonizing Mars to save humanity isn't serious either.

Brent

On 11/17/2021 4:17 AM, John Clark wrote:

I agree with Thomas Friedman, environmentalists are not serious people.

From The New York Times:

Want to Save the Earth? We Need a Lot More Elon Musks.

To slow climate change, Father Profit and New Tech must innovate, fast.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/16/opinion/glasgow-climate-change.html?smid=em-share
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Re: sterile neutrinos nearly ruled out

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/29/2021 4:15 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
On Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 9:08:55 PM UTC-5 johnk...@gmail.com 
wrote:


Lawrence, any guesses as to what Dark  Matter could be?  Nobody
can find any evidence of WIMPS and now sterile neutrinos seems to
have bit the dust. Would you bet your money on Axions, or some
modification of General Relativity (teleparallel gravity perhaps)
or none of the above?

John K Clark

==



I have no commitment to any particular theory. Dark matter might turn 
out to be some new physics involving mass-energy in an entirely 
different form from what we traditionally know as particles or fields. 
Dark energy is most likely some sort of vacuum energy, where the big 
unknown is how the vacuum energy is so small compared to what QFT 
predicts.


I liked Vic's idea that the holographic principle suggests that the QFT 
prediction is just overcounting the degrees of  freedom.


Brent

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Re: FW: FW: FW: [Consciousness-Online] FW: Dark Matter: How Physics Overlooks Chemistry?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

If you didn't post in response it would have resided unseen in my Junk 
bin.  I'll bet your email prog has a Junk bin too.


Brent

On 10/28/2021 4:01 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

I truly hope nobody is taking any of this seriously.

LC

On Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 9:11:06 AM UTC-5 medinuclear wrote:

*From:* Philip Benjamin  Wednesday, October 27, 2021 9:11 AM
general...@googlegroups.com *Subject:* RE: FW: FW:
[Consciousness-Online] FW: Dark Matter: How Physics Overlooks
Chemistry?

[*Philip Benjamin*].

WAMP-the-Ingrate (from KG to the University) is more
concerned with transgenderism, XX = XY and the perversely
fraudulent data of the entomologist Kinsey than with dark-matter
sciences.  It is conceivable that a freshman science student in a
foreign university can NOW accomplish more than the WAMP (Western
Acade-Media Pagan(ism)—the stealing beneficiaries of the
Augustinian Trust.

   Worldviews are just that—NOT SCIENCE. It was a colossal
blunder for that brilliant Bohr to bring in his world view through
the backdoor as science. Many a pagan scientist in the West with
un-awakend consciousness do that. They at the same time find fault
with ecclesiastical establishment for defending Geocentricism,
without any THINKING of the fact that it was the “science” of
those days (for all recorded history) including that of the
brilliant astronomer and mathematician Ptolemy. However, the
calculations resulted in the same results, be it geo or helio
centric. That is not what Bohr did—in his */CopenPagan/*
Misinterpretation! An AS IF behavior needs only an AS IF logic.
Not one Puritan scientist ( Michel Faraday was perhaps the last)
resorted to the Bohr misfeasance.

*Philip Benjamin* .

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Re: Computers and Quantum Supremacy

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Yet it's not clear that they actually demonstrated quantum supremacy.  
See https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=5868


Brent

On 10/26/2021 7:45 AM, John Clark wrote:
In yesterday's issue of the journal Physical Review Letters 
researchers in China report they have performed a calculation in a 
problem that has 10^43 dimensions in Hilbert space 10^24 times faster 
than the largest conventional supercomputer using the best 
conventional algorithm can. The calculation solved was about something 
called "Boson Sampling" which doesn't seem to have much application in 
itself but is a good proof of concept that a Quantum Computer can do 
things that a conventional  computer can't. Google solved a vastly 
smaller problem in Boson Sampling about a year ago and claimed quantum 
supremacy using a 53 qubit Quantum Computer, the Chinese used a 56 
qubit Quantum Computer, that may seem like just a small increase but 
with Quantum Computers things build exponentially so that the problem 
the Chinese were able to solve was astronomically more complex than 
the one Google had solved a year ago.


Strong Quantum Computational Advantage Using a Superconducting Quantum 
Processor 



Phase-Programmable Gaussian Boson Sampling Using Stimulated Squeezed 
Light 



Huge Leap for Quantum Primacy 

John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 



nnq




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Re: Atomic clocks

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Quiet amazing technical feat!

Brent

On 10/18/2021 11:02 AM, John Clark wrote:
In 2 new papers researchers report the development of an atomic 
clock that would be off by just one second after 4 trillion years, the 
universe is only 13.8 billion years old. When  they raised this new 
clock up by a distance of only 1 millimeter  they could measure the 
increase in clock speed due to it being one millimeter further from 
the Earth center and thus in a weaker gravitational field, and this 
change in clock speed agreed entirely with Einstein's general relativity.


Resolving the gravitational redshift within a millimeter atomic sample 



High precision differential clock comparisons with a multiplexed 
optical lattice clock 


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 



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Re: An odd signal from the Galactic center

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Well maybe they've turned 75% of the matter in von Neumann probes (after 
all once they start reproducing there's no way to stop them) and you've 
discovered the nature of dark matter.


Brent

On 10/14/2021 3:58 PM, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 6:52 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


/> And you know they would do this how?
/


I'd have a hard time understanding why they wouldn't, after all it's 
not as if it would be expensive, ifyou can control matter at the 
atomic level then a Von Neumann Probe would literally be dirt cheap


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>


b7x


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Re: An odd signal from the Galactic center

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/14/2021 3:23 PM, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 5:57 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


/> I don't know how you conclude an intelligent civilization would
be obvious;/


Even if you make the ridiculously conservative assumption that ET will 
never be able to achieve speeds any faster than we can with our space 
probes, they could still send a Von Neumann Probe to every star in the 
Galaxy in less than 50,000 years, and the night skywould never look 
the same again. I'm not talking about perpetual motion machines or 
time machines or faster than light travel, a Von Neumann Probe does 
not need any new science, just improved engineering, the ability to 
place individual atoms where you want them to be.


And you know they would do this how?

Brent

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Re: An odd signal from the Galactic center

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/14/2021 1:31 PM, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:21 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


/> If you notice, our radiation to space has decreased as we have
used higher frequencies and more directed communication (like
fiber optics and directional antennae) and as we compress and
encrypt the radiation will look more and more thermal./


That's true, the Earth's radio signature became much more random 
looking after June 12 2009. On that date all TV transmitters in the 
USA switched over from analog to digital. This made things more 
difficult for a hypothetical ET to infer from radio alone that 
intelligent life exists on the planet for two reasons:


1) Digital TV transmitters use far less power than the analog variety.

2) An analog TV signal obviously came from a technological 
civilization, but if you didn't know the particular compression codec 
used by digital broadcasters in the USA ,and ET wouldn't, then the 
signal would *almost* look like white noise. The compression is not 
perfect, that's why I said "almost".


However there is more to life than radio so I don't think this can be 
used as an excuse to explain away the no show of ET. If an intelligent 
civilization had existed in the galaxy for millions or billions of 
years then I don't think you'd need a radio to detect it, such an 
advanced civilization would be obvious to a blind man in a fog bank.


If it existed for a mere million years it might not overlap with our 
existence and hence not be detected.


I don't know how you conclude an intelligent civilization would be 
obvious; since the point of my post is the more advanced the 
civilization the more likely it is to become dim and look thermal.


Brent




John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>

oo6


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Re: An odd signal from the Galactic center

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/13/2021 9:43 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:48 AM > wrote:


/> Scanned this yesterday, JC. I always hope for the SETI result,/


There is zero evidence this has anything to do with ET.

> /and it always disappoints./


That's because every time a new astronomical discovery is made that 
cannot immediately be explained somebody ALWAYS says it must be ET.  
Personally, because I am unable to find a flaw in the Great Flter 
argument, I would be devastated if we detected ET;  it would mean the 
civilization we received a radio message from would have almost 
certainly been destroyed by now, and the future of the human race is 
likely to be very bleak indeed. I like to think the reason we haven't 
detected any other civilization already is because we are the first, 
not because we just haven't encountered the mysterious civilization 
destroying phenomenon yet that every intelligent species always 
eventually findsitself facing.


If you notice, our radiation to space has decreased as we have used 
higher frequencies and more directed communication (like fiber optics 
and directional antennae) and as we compress and encrypt the radiation 
will look more and more thermal.


Brent




The Great Filter 

> Even if it was ETI working on a black hole project for their own
(its own?) benefit, always there is the simpler explanation that
covers the evidence.


There is no known mechanism by which a Black Hole or a Neutron Star 
could produce radio waves and nothing else, much less highly 
circularly polarized radio waves.


/> neutron stars falling into the alleged AGN, active galactic
nucleus to perform just as you have described.
/


That would produce massive amounts of X-Rays and Gamma Rays as well as 
visible light, but there was none, only an intense burst of circularly 
polarized radio waves emanating from a very compact object at 
irregular times.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 


no2


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Re: Quantum Computers

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/6/2021 4:58 AM, John Clark wrote:
The difficulty in maintaining quantum coherence is the only reason we 
don't have practical quantum computers today, 


Well  there is also the fact that there are only about two dozen 
problems for which there is a known quantum algorithm faster than the 
best classical algorithm...and even there "faster" means in the limit of 
large problem size, not necessarily in realistic problem sizes.  And of 
those two dozen problems all but a handful are contrived specifically to 
show that there exist problems for which a QC is necessarily faster (in 
the large problem limit).


And when you talk about practical computers, how much more would it be 
worth to you if the word processor on your laptop was a thousand times 
faster or your computer game refreshed ten times faster.  The 
"practical" applications were initially supposed to be in encryption, 
both breaking and making unbreakable.  But now all the financial 
institutions are switching from RSA to encryption for which there's no 
QC algorithm to break it.


Brent

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Re: Unbounded stupidity​ ​

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

No.  We eliminated smallpox without vaccinating everyone on Earth. 
Unfortunately we can't do that with covid because it exists in some 
animals (as does ebola).  But that's still a stupid argument against 
someone getting the vaccine.  It's like saying that even with seatbelts 
people will get killed in car accidents, therefore it's reasonable to 
refuse to wear seatbelts, because...Freedumb!


Brent

On 10/5/2021 1:40 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Brent, kindly remember from an epidemiological basis, to rid ourselves 
finally from Covid and all its strains we are going to have to 
vaccinate everyone on earth. This from a vax standpoint comes from not 
the public health experts, but also from my brother in law, a Biden 
voter, who informed me of this and I corroborated online, and agree with.


Lets not argue the point in this thread, but we now have open borders, 
which is a political and ideological contention. It is also, a rapid 
means also of infection. If you wish to spend US tax payer dollars on 
such a global approach, I will will say yes, yes yes! I am just 
opposed to using this plague in a dictatorial manner, and am 
suspicious, and paranoid that it is being used as an excuse for 
dictatorial goals. Call it my bad.


A related feature of this, whoever you voted for or against, keep your 
eye on the economy.



-Original Message-
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, Oct 4, 2021 9:05 pm
Subject: Re: Unbounded stupidity​ ​



On 10/4/2021 4:51 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Funny, I read Taleb's book as well. Small world. I mean 't in the 
previous post that when those terrible nazi Trump voters refuse the 
shots, according to Team Dem, they will perish from this earth. Thus, 
if its what you are good with, and it is, then it will assure your 
claim and hold on power, Mr. Dem. How is this a loss for you?



It's been explained to you at least three times:

(1) We have family and friends that can't take the vaccine (too young, 
immune system problems...) and so need to rely on herd immunity.


(2) All you unvaccinated yahoos are just a big incubator for more 
variants of covid, one of which may prove resistant to the vaccine.


(3) The unvaccinated Trumpists are taking up hospital beds, staff, and 
ICU's which leaves other people unable to get emergency and elective care.


Why don't you try printing this out and keeping it in your wallet so 
when you're temped to repeat your BS for a fourth time you can take it 
out and read it and you'll know how it's a loss for the smarter part 
of humanity.


Brent

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Re: Unbounded stupidity​ ​

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/4/2021 4:51 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Funny, I read Taleb's book as well. Small world. I mean 't in the 
previous post that when those terrible nazi Trump voters refuse the 
shots, according to Team Dem, they will perish from this earth. Thus, 
if its what you are good with, and it is, then it will assure your 
claim and hold on power, Mr. Dem. How is this a loss for you?



It's been explained to you at least three times:

(1) We have family and friends that can't take the vaccine (too young, 
immune system problems...) and so need to rely on herd immunity.


(2) All you unvaccinated yahoos are just a big incubator for more 
variants of covid, one of which may prove resistant to the vaccine.


(3) The unvaccinated Trumpists are taking up hospital beds, staff, and 
ICU's which leaves other people unable to get emergency and elective care.


Why don't you try printing this out and keeping it in your wallet so 
when you're temped to repeat your BS for a fourth time you can take it 
out and read it and you'll know how it's a loss for the smarter part of 
humanity.


Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: Red Covid

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/3/2021 6:01 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Also the article did indicate that yeah there are people who suffer 
bad reactions to the vaccines, and fortunately for us, these are very 
rare. A death is a death.


A bad reaction isn't a death.  And a death isn't necessarily a death due 
to a vaccine.


Brent

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Re: Unbounded stupidity​ ​

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/2/2021 7:34 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

Typically, in political analysis a plurality means a slight majority.


I don't think plurality means what you think it means.

We should vaccinate, and get boosters and I just read 99+ % of the 
infections to date is now delta. If you are a progressive you had 
better be addressing your brothers on why they won't get vaxed. Try 
talking to them.


What makes you think they are vaxxed.  It's your white Trumpists that 
aren't vaccinated.


If your goal is merely to gin up a massive attack on white trumpies, 
(witch huntr) I would ponder that this practice will likely lead to 
things unpredicted.


I'm just waiting for covid to thin the herd.

Brent

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Re: Unbounded stupidity​ ​

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/2/2021 6:56 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

a plurality on Donny voters are vaccine subscribers.


Hmmm.  There's only two choices: vaccinated and not-vaccinated.  So a 
plurality is what??  A minority?


Maybe when JKC learns to decipher potato-speak he can explain it to me.

Brent

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Re: Unbounded stupidity​ ​

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

It's not race if black and white people can get the same vaccine free.  
The "discrimination" is black people harming themselves with no help 
from white people.


Brent

On 10/1/2021 8:52 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Well JC, consider this evolution in action. Your blessed democrats 
(now all elitists) will get to exterminate your enemies through your 
superior intellect alone which permits you to survive to breed young. 
Would this then be termed natural selection or are we past that phase?


Meanwhile, I literally stumbled across this shared advert by BLM on 
Twitter :-) It's from BLM.

Image

As the saying goes, "politics makes strange bedfellows," John.

"Pipes and chains and swinging hands, whose your daddy, yes I am!"
~Cherry Pop'in Daddies Zoot Suit Riot








-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: spudboy...@aol.com
Cc: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Thu, Sep 30, 2021 5:31 pm
Subject: Re: Unbounded stupidity​ ​

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 4:58 PM > wrote:


>/ If they are vaxed who are you trying to protect?/


Smart vaccinatedpeople are trying to protect themselvesin two 
different ways:


1) When these terminally stupid unvaccinated Trump supporters discover 
that a horse deworming nostrum they took did not prevent them from 
getting deathly ill they will whine and demand that they receive the 
finest medical treatment money can buy, and thus clog up our hospital 
intensive care rooms leaving no room for anybody else, and make 
matters even worse they won't pay for that fine medical treatment, 
they will demand that smart vaccinated people pay for it in the form 
of higher taxes and insurance premiums.


2) Filthy unhygienic Trump supporters are wonderful virus factories, 
even better than bats, and thus terrific breeding grounds for a 
COVID-19 mutation that is more virulent than the original and that can 
evade the vaccine.


> /Gov Cuomo and his money dealings /*[blah blah blah]*///campaign
contributors/*[blah blah blah]*/Black parents///*[blah blah blah]*



Yet more of spudboys100's patented irrelevancies in a desperate 
attempt to change the subjectand distract from the fact that Trump 
supporters are as dumb as a bag of hammers.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 


cxx

Recentlyon the right wing website Breitbart, moronicTrump 
supporterJohn Nolterevealed that even moronic Trump supporters know 
that other Trump supporters are morons. He said:


/“I sincerely believe the organized left is doing everything in its 
power to convince Trump supporters NOT to get the life-saving Trump 
vaccine, They are putting unvaccinated Trump supporters in an 
impossible position where they can either NOT get a life-saving 
vaccine or CAN feel like cucks caving to the ugliest, smuggest bullies 
in the world./

/
/
/In a country where elections are decided on razor-thin margins, does 
it not benefit one side if their opponents simply drop dead? If I 
wanted to use reverse psychology to convince people not to get a 
life-saving vaccination, I would do exactly what Howard Stern and the 
left are doing … I would bully and taunt and mock and ridicule you for 
not getting vaccinated, knowing the human response would be, "Hey, 
fuck you, I’m never getting vaccinate//d"/.



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Re: NYTimes.com: Red Covid

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/1/2021 1:38 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
I think your accusation of a Trumpy Coup d' etat sells medium well 
among your fellow ideologists, but outside of your mind set, is not a 
feature in this land.


I know.  Donny land is fact free.

Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: Red Covid

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/1/2021 1:17 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
You can blame Donny, but in truth the vax averse simply are fearful 
that they will die from heart inflammation or blood clots if they get 
the shots.


And why are they afraid of that in spite of the vaccine trials that 
produced no such data?  It's a consequence of the drumbeat of right-wing 
politicians going back at least to Reagan that you can't trust the 
government; they're out to screw you, to control you, to enslave you.  
Sure The Dump didn't invent that, but unlike Reagan and other 
conservative politicans, he spread and encouraged conspiracy theories.


I would say that both Donny & Joe have done very poor work at 
clarifying the medical risks and rewards. Donny was never tight with 
his messaging and so left his statements were open to interpretation. 
Joe and company seem to want to intimidate the populace into 
submission, and by this appear to treat the vax as some kind of 
loyalty oath and obedience test. For public policy and popularity, 
when people start getting fired for not vaxing, this will not be a 
progressive-friendly environment to say the least.


What not progressive about firing people for endangering public health.  
You can be quarantined for having TB.  If you're in the military or 
public school you've been required to be vaccinated for a long list of 
diseases for as long as I've been alive.




By evolution if you get the shots and we don't and we die off as a 
result, how does this affect you in a bad way? Less country folks to 
oppose your progressive policies, savvy? Cynical on my part indeed, 
yet, most of the politicians are attorneys so cynicism is baked in. 
Unavoidable even by the best of us.


Until you die off, you're a breeding ground for new variants which may 
circumvent existing vaccines and affect all the rest of us. THAT'S HOW.


Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: Red Covid

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 10/1/2021 1:05 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:


I would say that the Tuskegee experiment was indeed akin to Unit 731 & 
Dachau, because it didn't care whether the sufferers live or died.
But that's false.  The subjects in the Tuskegee experiments were 
provided food and shelter and care to keep them healthy and alive. They 
were only denied the current, very speculative treatments for 
syphilis...which turned out to be the right thing to do.  They did as 
well as untreated persons, up till 1947 when real treatment became 
available.


And after the above assertion you ramble about completely unrelated 
questions of energy and global warming.


Brent

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Re: Unbounded stupidity​ ​

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 9/30/2021 2:27 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Whataboudism is simply a way for some people to avoid comparing and 
contrasting.
No it's not.  It's dishonest rhetorical tactic to divert attention from 
a valid argument to addressing some different question which even if 
answered would have no bearing on the original question.


Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: Red Covid

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 9/30/2021 2:16 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
What you have stated is absolutely true. The Tuskegee "experiment" is 
100% historical fact. It is akin to the Nazis at Dachau, and also the 
Japanese Unit 731 on the Yang Tze.


No it was not akin to those programs whose explicit purpose was to kill 
the subjects.  The Tuskegee experiment was begun at a time when there 
was no effective treatment, but some questionable ones.  The experiment 
was to study whether people who got no treatment actually fared worse 
that those given the questionable ones.  So the subjects were not given 
the "cures" but were otherwise cared for.  They did as well as people 
treated with so-called cures.  So up until 1947 the experiment wasn't 
harming anyone...although it was unethical. After 1947 antibiotics were 
available and were effective in treating syphillis and so the 
continuation of the experiment was harming the subjects...but not 
deliberately killing them.


Trump did operation warp speed which was basically what is called The 
Wattenberg Method. The Wattenberg Method is simply as he stated which 
was, "Throw enough money and capital at a problem." Capital also so 
means STEM people. Trump was Booed at a rally or rallies, so yeah he 
backed off. Undeniable.


Now getting back to problem solving, let us focus medical research for 
certain, but also, if you want to remediate climate change for 
example, why not spend that "Infrastructure" cash on technology. Like 
solar power and batteries and other things. We won't save the earth on 
wishes and dreams. Viva materialism.


Why not solve more than one problem at a time?  That's what it takes to 
survive in the world.


Brent




-Original Message-----
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Sep 29, 2021 8:55 pm
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: Red Covid

Blacks have some historically justified suspicion of "the man" because 
of things like the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, and the Trumpists 
have fed the general suspicion of vaccines.  Which is ironic since 
Trump would like to take credit for Operation Warp Speed producing a 
new vaccine in record time (although he had little to do with it).  
But he was booed at one of his rallies when he suggested it would be 
good to get vaccinated, and he quickly backed away from it.


Brent

On 9/29/2021 5:06 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Heh! These must be life long Trump voters, JC?


  Black L.A. residents have highest COVID hospitalization rate: ‘A
  deplorable reality’


  
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-09-25/black-residents-have-highest-covid-hospitalizations-in-l-a
  
<https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-09-25/black-residents-have-highest-covid-hospitalizations-in-l-a>


Hey! Wait a minute. I'm deplorable too. But JC you'll be pleased to 
know that your progressive policies now spawn free enterprise.



  Black market for fake vaccination cards is booming

https://www.boston25news.com/news/health/black-market-fake-vaccination-cards-is-booming/5ZUE3BU3HFBS7I3TRSY3QDQNTY/ 
<https://www.boston25news.com/news/health/black-market-fake-vaccination-cards-is-booming/5ZUE3BU3HFBS7I3TRSY3QDQNTY/>


And,


  Racial Disparities Exist Among Children Due to COVID-19, Report Shows

https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/health-news-florida/2021-09-24/racial-disparities-exist-among-children-due-to-covid-19-report-shows 
<https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/health-news-florida/2021-09-24/racial-disparities-exist-among-children-due-to-covid-19-report-shows>


Do you think the "Trump voters" frightened off this last category of 
citizens cuz racism trumpy-style? I mean I realize liberals already  
know that nonwhites cant think for themselves, right? Or possibly 
these people may just have another reason?


"Hospitalization trends were also higher for AIAN, Black and Hispanic 
children, who are more likely to have multisystem inflammatory 
syndrome (MIS-C). They were two to three times as likely to be 
hospitalized as a result of COVID-19 than other groups."


I know, no excuses for those that must be trump voters or witches 
(Almost Halloween!), and lacking faith in the dems who are now all 
progressivies is an unforgivable sin. I think they must simply all 
misunderstand the great genius of comrade Joe. Yeah, that's the ticket.







-Original Message-
From: John Clark  <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wed, Sep 29, 2021 6:37 am
Subject: NYTimes.com: Red Covid

From The New York Times:

Yet more evidence Trump supporters are STUPID.

"In counties where Donald Trump received at least 70 percent of the 
vote, the virus has killed about 47 out of every 100,000 people since 
the end of June. In counties where Trump won less than 32 percent of 
the vote, the 

Re: NYTimes.com: Red Covid

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

And not all anti-vaxxers are Trumpists.  In fact before Trump and covid 
the main anti-vaxxers were leftist celebrities like Gwenth Paltrow and 
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.  But they were a small fringe group.  Now, thanks 
to Trump and the other anti-government conspiracy theorists, the is a 
majority of Republicans who anti-vaxxers, but just on for the covid 
vaccine.  The fact that someone else is also anti-vaxx doesn't make that 
large group any less stupid or any less of a threat to public health.


Brent

On 9/30/2021 2:04 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

Simply because you conflate the two actions in a continuous manner savvy.
Your consistent message is that only the trumpy voter won't take the 
vaccines.

Only white trumpy rednecks are vaccine averse.

This is like the old saying that all bar tenders are democrats
But not all democrats are bar tenders.

Except the above contention is accurate, and your contention is not 
accurate.


If you're going to do science so science, but that will have to be 
dependent on all the facts, unlike ideology.



-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: spudboy...@aol.com
Cc: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Thu, Sep 30, 2021 5:24 am
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: Red Covid

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 8:06 PM > wrote:


/> Heh! These must be life long Trump voters, JC? Black L.A.
residents have highest COVID hospitalization rate:/


You keep bringing up Black people over and over and over again as if 
you expect me to say that only Caucasians can be stupid and that Black 
people never are, well I'm afraid you're going to be waiting for a 
very long time.


> your progressive policies now spawn free enterprise./Black market
for fake vaccination cards/[blah blah blah]


None of your completeirrelevancies can distract from the fact that 
Trump supporters are dying of COVID-19 at a vastly higher rate than 
Biden supporters because Biden supporters tend to be less stupid.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 


eec


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Re: Unbounded stupidity​ ​

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

People who have not been vaccinated adversely affect the rest of us in 
two ways.  First, they stress the health care system.  Just yesterday 
the LA Times ran a story about a woman whose husband died of a heart 
problem without being able to be put in an ICU because all the 
facilities were taken by covid patients who were not vaccinated.


Second, the more people the virus infects and the more it reproduces the 
more likely that a new variant will arise which circumvents the 
vaccinations we have.


And finally, that Trump once did something useful or someone else did 
something wrong or which turned out badly, doesn't make the stupid 
things done by Trump and his supporters any less stupid. Whataboutism is 
not a good argument.


Brent

On 9/30/2021 1:58 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
It is curious for me, how libs howl about people not accepting the 
shots with themselves being protected. What virtue signaling to each 
other are the libs trying to sell themselves? If they are vaxed who 
are you trying to protect? Oh, I know! You don't wish to be last in 
line if you get a heart attack. Well in 2020 the Trump had the Javits 
Center in NY and the Hospital ship Hope waiting for Covid patients all 
the while, and Gov Cuomo and his money dealings with the Care Home 
businesses owners and campaign contributors send convalescents to the 
Care Homes, where they died, and were often infected. Maybe they were 
all trumpies eh?


Golly JC. Are these people secret trumpies too?


  Poll: Black parents most hesitant about COVID-19 vaccines for kids


https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2021/09/29/covid19-vaccination-kids-hesitation-black-parents-poll/6531632936095/

UPI must be very trumpy to publish this...oh wait!

-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
Sent: Thu, Sep 30, 2021 5:43 am
Subject: Unbounded stupidity​ ​

Recentlyon the right wing website Breitbart, moronicTrump 
supporterJohn Nolterevealed that even moronic Trump supporters know 
that other Trump supporters are morons. He said:


/“I sincerely believe the organized left is doing everything in its 
power to convince Trump supporters NOT to get the life-saving Trump 
vaccine, They are putting unvaccinated Trump supporters in an 
impossible position where they can either NOT get a life-saving 
vaccine or CAN feel like cucks caving to the ugliest, smuggest bullies 
in the world./

/
/
/In a country where elections are decided on razor-thin margins, does 
it not benefit one side if their opponents simply drop dead? If I 
wanted to use reverse psychology to convince people not to get a 
life-saving vaccination, I would do exactly what Howard Stern and the 
left are doing … I would bully and taunt and mock and ridicule you for 
not getting vaccinated, knowing the human response would be, "Hey, 
fuck you, I’m never getting vaccinate//d"/.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>

oeo


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Re: NYTimes.com: Red Covid

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Blacks have some historically justified suspicion of "the man" because 
of things like the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, and the Trumpists have 
fed the general suspicion of vaccines.  Which is ironic since Trump 
would like to take credit for Operation Warp Speed producing a new 
vaccine in record time (although he had little to do with it).  But he 
was booed at one of his rallies when he suggested it would be good to 
get vaccinated, and he quickly backed away from it.


Brent

On 9/29/2021 5:06 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

Heh! These must be life long Trump voters, JC?


  Black L.A. residents have highest COVID hospitalization rate: ‘A
  deplorable reality’


  
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-09-25/black-residents-have-highest-covid-hospitalizations-in-l-a


Hey! Wait a minute. I'm deplorable too. But JC you'll be pleased to 
know that your progressive policies now spawn free enterprise.



  Black market for fake vaccination cards is booming

https://www.boston25news.com/news/health/black-market-fake-vaccination-cards-is-booming/5ZUE3BU3HFBS7I3TRSY3QDQNTY/

And,


  Racial Disparities Exist Among Children Due to COVID-19, Report Shows

https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/health-news-florida/2021-09-24/racial-disparities-exist-among-children-due-to-covid-19-report-shows

Do you think the "Trump voters" frightened off this last category of 
citizens cuz racism trumpy-style? I mean I realize liberals already  
know that nonwhites cant think for themselves, right? Or possibly 
these people may just have another reason?


"Hospitalization trends were also higher for AIAN, Black and Hispanic 
children, who are more likely to have multisystem inflammatory 
syndrome (MIS-C). They were two to three times as likely to be 
hospitalized as a result of COVID-19 than other groups."


I know, no excuses for those that must be trump voters or witches 
(Almost Halloween!), and lacking faith in the dems who are now all 
progressivies is an unforgivable sin. I think they must simply all 
misunderstand the great genius of comrade Joe. Yeah, that's the ticket.







-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
Sent: Wed, Sep 29, 2021 6:37 am
Subject: NYTimes.com: Red Covid

From The New York Times:

Yet more evidence Trump supporters are STUPID.

"In counties where Donald Trump received at least 70 percent of the 
vote, the virus has killed about 47 out of every 100,000 people since 
the end of June. In counties where Trump won less than 32 percent of 
the vote, the number is about 10 out of 100,000."


Red Covid

Covid’s partisan pattern is growing more extreme.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/27/briefing/covid-red-states-vaccinations.html?smid=em-share 
<https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/27/briefing/covid-red-states-vaccinations.html?smid=em-share>

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Re: Dark Matter: How Physics Overlooks Chemistry?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 9/26/2021 11:22 AM, Tomas Pales wrote:


On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 12:43:06 AM UTC+2 Brent wrote:

If a particle is isolated, no interactions, then it's in a pure
state.  A pure state is not a superposition in some coordinate
basis, but it's a superposition in other bases. So being in a
superposition is relative the basis you use to write the state. 
Being weakly interacting would I think make dark matter particles
(if dm is particles) more isolated and therefore less likely to be
entangled and not in a superposition.


I mean that the particle's properties like position and momentum are 
in a superposition of values instead of having single values - the 
particle's wave function is not collapsed.


"Being in a superposition" is like going North-East is a superposition 
of going North and going East.  In QM if you want to measure the 
direction your instrument defines the eigenvalues, so if it's an North 
or East instrument it collapses North-East to either North,  with 
probability 0.5, or East with probability 0.5.  It's only a 
"superposition" because we don't have an instrument that has North-East 
as an eigenvalue.


There is almost no interaction and so almost no decoherence. Does that 
also mean that the wave functions of the particles don't interfere 
much? Could such particles be in a quantum entanglement? (the "spooky 
action at a distance")


In general, i.e. outside controlled laboratory conditions, particles 
interact a lot.  Air molecules bump into other air molecules, IR photons 
get emitted and absorbed,...  All those interactions imply 
entanglement.  But we need to be clear that although it is common to 
talk about particles being entangled, what is actually entangled, i.e. 
caused to be correlated, are /properties/ of particles, i.e. things you 
can measure about them. So often an experiment is done by entangling the 
angular momentum of two particles…but leaving their linear momentum 
unentangled, or their energy unentangled. And it’s even possible to 
entangle different properties of the particles, e.g. the linear momentum 
of one with the angular momentum of another…although this would take 
some ingenuity to do deliberately in the lab.


Second, a property of a particle has only so much to entangle. So two 
particles can be 100% entangled in some property. If you measure it on 
one particle you know exactly what is on the other. But three particles 
can’t be 100% entangled. If you measure one you only 50% knowledge of 
the other two. So what happens “in the universe” is that particles 
interact with many other particles, so they are a little bit entangled 
with each of the others…which means for all practical purposes they are 
not entangled at all. You would have to measure billions of other 
particles to get complete information about the entangled property of 
this one particle…or you could just measure it.


Brent

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Re: Dark Matter: How Physics Overlooks Chemistry?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

If a particle is isolated, no interactions, then it's in a pure state.  
A pure state is not a superposition in some coordinate basis, but it's a 
superposition in other bases.  So being in a superposition is relative 
the basis you use to write the state. Being weakly interacting would I 
think make dark matter particles (if dm is particles) more isolated and 
therefore less likely to be entangled and not in a superposition.


Brent

On 9/25/2021 1:57 PM, Tomas Pales wrote:
If dark matter interacts only weakly, does it mean that it is more 
likely to be in quantum superpositions than ordinary matter?

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Re: Ron DeSantis' New Surgeon General Appeared in 'Demon Sperm' Doctor's COVID Conspiracy Video

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Lawrence, haven't you noticed that the potatobody's posts are like 
Duke's in Doonesbury.  They're all of the form, "Here I am hunkered down 
while events happen around me and here are my thoughts and 
predictions."   As if anyone cares.


Brent

On 9/22/2021 6:06 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
I am more concerned about Black Swans than Black Clouds, LC. For many, 
Joe's Afghan thing was a Black swan indeed. His Open Borders thing 
will not be a winner. His Party's energy scheme, which as with Afghan 
is to declare victory over global warming sans a material fix, and to 
withdraw. With China, the regime did better with their submarine fix 
with Australia. Something about Xi must have terrified him? 
(speculation on my part). I am encouraged that MaB's actually work at 
ending Covid infections and greatly reducing mortalities.


Here is a public  but specific report about Vanderbilt on MaB's being 
efficacious. Yes, we will still need vaxing to eliminate the bug.

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/vanderbilt-discovery-of-ultra-potent-antibody-could-help-with-covid-other-viruses

Covid, I think, ate the former president's lunch and it has the 
potential to devour the current president's as well. Plague's

do that historically.

Dem voters have nothing specific to gripe about as policy, I have duly 
noted, so they focus on personality. You guys know what you feel, but 
it impacts your ability to analyze clearly.


Sincerely,
Spud, The Stakhanovite Worker of the US middle class~

-Original Message-
From: Lawrence Crowell 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Wed, Sep 22, 2021 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: Ron DeSantis' New Surgeon General Appeared in 'Demon 
Sperm' Doctor's COVID Conspiracy Video


There is something to look forwards to. Don-the-Con t'Rump at best 
damaged and at worst demolished everything. He had lots of 
bankruptcies and 4 in the billion $$$ range. He did damage to this 
country, but fortunately I think his handlers ameliorated things. He 
wants to expel the old Republicans who will not follow his line. He 
might just be the man who destroys the Republican Party! He might so 
totally damage or ruin it that it will take decades for the insane 
right wing to come back together. So there may be a silver lining 
around the dark cloud, though if t'Rump becomes president again this 
will be a black cloud with a silver lining.


LC

On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 4:22:21 AM UTC-5 
johnk...@gmail.com wrote:


And what political party doesRon DeSantisbelong to? The stupid
party of course.

Ron DeSantis' New Surgeon General Appeared in 'Demon Sperm'
Doctor's COVID Conspiracy Video



John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis

nnz

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Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

So it's only slavish academics who care whether there's any evidence 
behind their bloviation?


Brent

On 9/17/2021 3:19 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Ah! But I am not a slavish academic who relies on his income and 
career from one's "peers." These people published and did not perish 
yet. Progressive totalitarians ignore the science at their own risk. 
Some things work, some things don't. Just an observation.



-Original Message-----
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Sep 16, 2021 3:23 pm
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ 
Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics


If it's based "only on your guessing" why would anyone care?  Why 
would you even publish it?  Why aren't you embarrassed by lack of 
content in your posts?


On 9/16/2021 5:47 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
I want this to be easy, but the statements and behavior of the CDC 
made it more difficult, as has Biden. A way through would be to 
identify agents that would eliminate Covid's effects on human biology,


Another way would be to time travel back to 2019 and block it's spread 
in China.   But then you're just guessing.



thus eliminating permanent disabilities and, or, death. This would be 
an actual fix. Even when the mutations arrive, the ability to kill 
would be eliminated, at first! Meaning that the virus will by 
artificial selection, adapt. Researchers are already doing the work.


Some treatments work-
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-multinational-study-investigates-3-new-treatments#Drug-therapies 
<https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-multinational-study-investigates-3-new-treatments#Drug-therapies>


Some don't:
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-study-shows-no-significant-benefit-convalescent-plasma-covid-19-outpatients-early-symptoms 
<https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-study-shows-no-significant-benefit-convalescent-plasma-covid-19-outpatients-early-symptoms>


Based only on my guessing, people under 35 shouldn't have the vax, or 
if they get it, it doesn't work anyway. I know of a mother of two who 
lost here life to Covid at age 32. She had the 2 shots.



-----Original Message-
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Wed, Sep 15, 2021 4:50 pm
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ 
Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics


People have been killed by falling planes.  But intelligent people 
understand odds.


Brent


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Re: Nicki Minaj's Cousin's Friend's Boyfriend's Balls in Trinidad

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

People should be vaccinated because if they aren't they are a breeding 
ground for covid and risk producing a new variant and a new pandemic.


Brent

On 9/17/2021 3:15 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Yeah, people shouldn't be forced to be vaccinated because progressive 
totalitarians want power. Biden just cut supplies of monoclonal 
antibodies  to Florida, to attack DeSantis. Seems like a large 
percentage of the peeps, yes Black democrats, chose the risk or 
getting the Delta and getting it treated via MAB. I wonder of DeSantis 
can make this a win for his team in 2022? No bets!

https://news.yahoo.com/desantis-slams-biden-really-huge-195800425.html




-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
Sent: Thu, Sep 16, 2021 10:29 am
Subject: Nicki Minaj's Cousin's Friend's Boyfriend's Balls in Trinidad

Tucker Carlson has been vaccinated, he must be because it has long 
been the policy of Fox News that all employees must be. Nevertheless 
last night Tucker Carlson tried to make the case that Americans should 
not get vaccinated, and as evidence to support his view he pointed to 
a tweet that said rapper Nicki Minaj's cousin's friend's boyfriend's 
balls got swollen after he received a Chinese COVID-19 vaccine in 
Trinidad, which isn't even available in the USA. Given that 22 million 
people read Nicki Minaj's tweets, about 1000 times as many as read 
"The New England Journal of Medicine" or "The Lancet ", the Trinidad 
minister of health felt he had to go on camera and say that they had 
received absolutely no reports of anybody's balls swell after 
receiving the Covid-19 vaccine.


No reports of 'testicular swelling in Trinidad 
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAwCXCz4-DQ>


John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>

llb
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Re: Carl Sagan Predicted The Mess 2021 Would Be 25 years Ago

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Except if you actually remember 1996  all those negative situations he 
"foresees" had already happened or, as he notes, are well under way.  
Worry that industry was offshoring and we were losing manufacturing to 
Japan and Asia had been a political talking point for 10yrs.  And it's 
ironic that the complaint about 10min sound bites was in a 4min sound bite.


I don't know any statistics on about their viewership, but there are 
wonderful, informative lectures by really, really smart people on the 
internet: Sean Carroll's Mindscape interviews as well as his own 
lectures.  Nick Lane's talks on abiogenesis. Ian Shapiro on recent 
history.  Wolff v. Friedman debates.  These are hours long.   And there 
are even good sound bites.  Veritasium has scientific thought-bites.


Brent

On 9/16/2021 8:40 AM, John Clark wrote:
Carl Sagan Predicted The Mess 2021 Would Be 25 years Ago 



John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 


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Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

If it's based "only on your guessing" why would anyone care?  Why would 
you even publish it?  Why aren't you embarrassed by lack of content in 
your posts?


On 9/16/2021 5:47 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
I want this to be easy, but the statements and behavior of the CDC 
made it more difficult, as has Biden. A way through would be to 
identify agents that would eliminate Covid's effects on human biology,


Another way would be to time travel back to 2019 and block it's spread 
in China.   But then you're just guessing.


thus eliminating permanent disabilities and, or, death. This would be 
an actual fix. Even when the mutations arrive, the ability to kill 
would be eliminated, at first! Meaning that the virus will by 
artificial selection, adapt. Researchers are already doing the work.


Some treatments work-
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-multinational-study-investigates-3-new-treatments#Drug-therapies

Some don't:
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-study-shows-no-significant-benefit-convalescent-plasma-covid-19-outpatients-early-symptoms

Based only on my guessing, people under 35 shouldn't have the vax, or 
if they get it, it doesn't work anyway. I know of a mother of two who 
lost here life to Covid at age 32. She had the 2 shots.



-Original Message-----
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Sep 15, 2021 4:50 pm
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ 
Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics


People have been killed by falling planes.  But intelligent people 
understand odds.


Brent


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Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

People have been killed by falling planes.  But intelligent people 
understand odds.


Brent

On 9/15/2021 10:28 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
It would be an unexpected thing if a plane fell while crossing the 
street. However I am understanding of the well placed fear that many 
have that why take a jab when this is now a feature?
https://www.newsweek.com/over-14k-vaccinated-people-breakthrough-covid-cases-have-been-hospitalized-died-1628508 


https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/breakthrough-covid-cases-in-mass-now-approaching-3/ar-AAOtBuF




-Original Message-
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Sep 14, 2021 7:12 pm
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ 
Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics




On 9/14/2021 2:46 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
They are afraid of bad biochemical reactions reported that end in some 
peoples deaths via heart inflammation, they are afraid of taking the 
shots and the contracting the and still perishing of covid. Both of 
these outcomes are now real things to be worried about.


So's being struck by falling plane, but non-idiots don't cross the 
street looking up at the sky.


Brent





-Original Message-
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tue, Sep 14, 2021 4:48 pm
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ 
Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics


Ahh, if we only had a vaccine against coveting  that would be real 
advancement...although it would ruin Madison Ave.


On 9/14/2021 12:08 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
You still ignore all the conundrums and riots going on all around the 
world in regards to using covet vaccination as a passport to society 
for freedoms people already had. You also ignore how many African 
Americans refuse to take the vacs, are they stupid too?
It isn't 100% preventable because I know personally of a young woman 
a mother who lost her life to covet even though she had both 
vaccinations. So your magic confidence in technology and medical 
professionals seems to be inaccurate.


Only and idiot refuses help because it isn't 100% effective.

Brent

You obviously want to relegate the vaccine refusers to your 
imaginary white Republicans who drive pickup trucks and vote for 
Donny. But that's simply isn't true.




On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 John Clark <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote:


On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 8:54 PM <mailto:spudboy...@aol.com>> wrote:


/> I am sure that Joe is taking direct advice from Obama right
thru this moment./


I doubt it but I hope you're right.In my opinion Obama was the 
second best president in my lifetime, John Kennedy was the best.


/> In any case the plague which devoured Captain Orange, is now
continuing its meal on the Biden presidency. The reasons for
this is complex/


No, it's not complex at all. The only reason the COVID-19 pandemic 
didn't end 5 months and tens of thousands of deaths ago is very 
simple, the USA has an excess of very simple people in it. Are these 
very stupid people divided equally among the political parties? 
Nope. 50% of Trump voters are so stupid they're not vaccinated, but 
only 7% of Biden voters are that brain dead dumb.


/> My own privative serf-ish public policy recommendation  would
be to make a super push for treatments rather than vaccines,/


Given that COVID-19 is now a 100% preventable disease and the 
treatment is easy quick painless and free, and given that the amount 
of resources that can be allocated towards medical research is 
finite I'd be opposed to devoting a great deal of effort into saving 
very very stupid people from themselves.


/> to buy time for vaccination research/


No vaccine is any good if people are too stupid to take it. We 
already have a near perfect vaccine for COVID19, several in fact, 
what we really need now is a vaccine that prevents stupidity.. 
but on second thought I guess even that wouldn't help because some 
people would be too stupid to take that too. Oh well, Evolution in 
action.


/> This treatment focus would buy enough time to produce
eventuallysuper vaccinesthat finally send Covid to small pox land. /

Smallpox became extinct in 1977, if not for the opposition from 
right wing religious people who violently opposed vaccinations (and 
I do mean violently) it could've happened a century earlier.  And 
just five years ago it looked like polio was on the verge of 
extinction, but right wing religious anti-vaccination nuts in the 
USA and Afghanistan and elsewhere have made a comeback and thus 
polio has made a come back too.


John K Clark    See what's on my new l

Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 9/14/2021 3:49 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

M...nada chingada

and the truth is half of those white Republican pick up driving
MAGA hatwearing Trump supporters are too dumb to get the
vaccineand thus have a good chance of dying and increasing the
nations IQ average as a result. 


For instance on this breakdown...
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/
*Overall, across these 42 states, the percent of White people who have 
received at least one COVID-19 vaccine dose (**52%) was roughly 1.2 
times higher than the rate for Black people (43%) and 1.1 times higher 
than the rate for Hispanic people (48%) as of September 7, 2021. 
*White people had a higher vaccination rate compared to Hispanic 
people in most reporting states, except Missouri, Vermont, Tennessee, 
Louisiana, DC, Virginia, New York, South Carolina and Nevada. White 
people also had a higher rate than Black people in every reporting 
state, except Oregon, Alaska, Mississippi, Washington, Louisiana, and 
Idaho. The size of these differences varied widely across states and 
have been narrowing over time. The overall vaccination rate across 
states for Asian people was higher compared to White people (68% vs. 
52%), which is consistent with the pattern in most reporting states. 
However, Asian people had lower vaccinations rates than White people 
in five states (Colorado, North Dakota, Utah, Pennsylvania, and South 
Dakota).


It basically comes down to a mistrust of the edicts of of Elite Class 
of medicals and governmentals' a plurality of the public has ceased to 
trust them, and not just the Trumpies.


I don't think "plurality" means what you think it means.



https://news.yahoo.com/vaccine-mandates-spread-protests-spurred-215623569.html

https://news.yahoo.com/protests-against-vaccines-covid-restrictions-110034948.html

https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/568879-french-anti-vaccine-pass-protests-extend-into-sixth-weekend

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/anti-covid-vaccine-protesters-clash-with-police-greece-2021-09-11/

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/09/13/watch_first_responders_stage_silent_protest_against_mandatory_vaccines_in_canada.html

https://fight4usanews.wordpress.com/2021/09/14/thousands-protest-against-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-in-new-york-city/

https://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/police-break-up-anti-vaccination-protest-in-trinidad_230886

Especially, when people see this:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/members-of-congress-and-their-staff-are-exempt-from-bidens-vaccine-mandate/ar-AAOiQvC

Thus, must of the anti-vaxers are likely not huge worshippers of 
Donny, no matter how much you'd like this,


But the huge worshippers of The Dump are almost all anti-vaxxers. Which 
is strange since before Donny the anti-vaxxers were a fringe group on 
the left worshipping "natural" (but expensive) stuff.


Brent

and that such rebellion against progressivist dictatorialism will 
expand, and that as the previous link proved, as George Orwell wrote," 
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."


Please note that theCDC came out in he last 48 hours indicated that 
the booster shots were not needed at this time, and this after 2 
months of belligerent liberal Media howling's


You mean Faux News reported that the liberal media was howling about 
booster shots...and lying as usual.


Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 9/14/2021 2:46 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
They are afraid of bad biochemical reactions reported that end in some 
peoples deaths via heart inflammation, they are afraid of taking the 
shots and the contracting the and still perishing of covid. Both of 
these outcomes are now real things to be worried about.


So's being struck by falling plane, but non-idiots don't cross the 
street looking up at the sky.


Brent





-Original Message-
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Sep 14, 2021 4:48 pm
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ 
Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics


Ahh, if we only had a vaccine against coveting  that would be real 
advancement...although it would ruin Madison Ave.


On 9/14/2021 12:08 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
You still ignore all the conundrums and riots going on all around the 
world in regards to using covet vaccination as a passport to society 
for freedoms people already had. You also ignore how many African 
Americans refuse to take the vacs, are they stupid too?
It isn't 100% preventable because I know personally of a young woman a 
mother who lost her life to covet even though she had both 
vaccinations. So your magic confidence in technology and medical 
professionals seems to be inaccurate.


Only and idiot refuses help because it isn't 100% effective.

Brent

You obviously want to relegate the vaccine refusers to your imaginary 
white Republicans who drive pickup trucks and vote for Donny. But 
that's simply isn't true.




On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 John Clark <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote:


On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 8:54 PM <mailto:spudboy...@aol.com>> wrote:


/> I am sure that Joe is taking direct advice from Obama right
thru this moment./


I doubt it but I hope you're right.In my opinion Obama was the second 
best president in my lifetime, John Kennedy was the best.


/> In any case the plague which devoured Captain Orange, is now
continuing its meal on the Biden presidency. The reasons for this
is complex/


No, it's not complex at all. The only reason the COVID-19 pandemic 
didn't end 5 months and tens of thousands of deaths ago is very 
simple, the USA has an excess of very simple people in it. Are these 
very stupid people divided equally among the political parties? Nope. 
50% of Trump voters are so stupid they're not vaccinated, but only 7% 
of Biden voters are that brain dead dumb.


/> My own privative serf-ish public policy recommendation  would
be to make a super push for treatments rather than vaccines,/


Given that COVID-19 is now a 100% preventable disease and the 
treatment is easy quick painless and free, and given that the amount 
of resources that can be allocated towards medical research is finite 
I'd be opposed to devoting a great deal of effort into saving very 
very stupid people from themselves.


/> to buy time for vaccination research/


No vaccine is any good if people are too stupid to take it. We 
already have a near perfect vaccine for COVID19, several in fact, 
what we really need now is a vaccine that prevents stupidity.. 
but on second thought I guess even that wouldn't help because some 
people would be too stupid to take that too. Oh well, Evolution in 
action.


/> This treatment focus would buy enough time to produce
eventuallysuper vaccinesthat finally send Covid to small pox land. /

Smallpox became extinct in 1977, if not for the opposition from right 
wing religious people who violently opposed vaccinations (and I do 
mean violently) it could've happened a century earlier.  And just 
five years ago it looked like polio was on the verge of extinction, 
but right wing religious anti-vaccination nuts in the USA and 
Afghanistan and elsewhere have made a comeback and thus polio has 
made a come back too.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>


foo



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Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Ahh, if we only had a vaccine against coveting  that would be real 
advancement...although it would ruin Madison Ave.


On 9/14/2021 12:08 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:


You still ignore all the conundrums and riots going on all around the 
world in regards to using covet vaccination as a passport to society 
for freedoms people already had. You also ignore how many African 
Americans refuse to take the vacs, are they stupid too?


It isn't 100% preventable because I know personally of a young woman a 
mother who lost her life to covet even though she had both 
vaccinations. So your magic confidence in technology and medical 
professionals seems to be inaccurate.




Only and idiot refuses help because it isn't 100% effective.

Brent

You obviously want to relegate the vaccine refusers to your imaginary 
white Republicans who drive pickup trucks and vote for Donny. But 
that's simply isn't true.





On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 John Clark  wrote:

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 8:54 PM > wrote:


/> I am sure that Joe is taking direct advice from Obama right
thru this moment./


I doubt it but I hope you're right.In my opinion Obama was the second 
best president in my lifetime, John Kennedy was the best.


/> In any case the plague which devoured Captain Orange, is now
continuing its meal on the Biden presidency. The reasons for this
is complex/


No, it's not complex at all. The only reason the COVID-19 pandemic 
didn't end 5 months and tens of thousands of deaths ago is very 
simple, the USA has an excess of very simple people in it. Are these 
very stupid people divided equally among the political parties? Nope. 
50% of Trump voters are so stupid they're not vaccinated, but only 7% 
of Biden voters are that brain dead dumb.


/> My own privative serf-ish public policy recommendation  would
be to make a super push for treatments rather than vaccines,/


Given that COVID-19 is now a 100% preventable disease and the 
treatment is easy quick painless and free, and given that the amount 
of resources that can be allocated towards medical research is finite 
I'd be opposed to devoting a great deal of effort into saving very 
very stupid people from themselves.


/> to buy time for vaccination research/


No vaccine is any good if people are too stupid to take it. We already 
have a near perfect vaccine for COVID19, several in fact, what we 
really need now is a vaccine that prevents stupidity.. but on 
second thought I guess even that wouldn't help because some people 
would be too stupid to take that too. Oh well, Evolution in action.


/> This treatment focus would buy enough time to produce
eventuallysuper vaccinesthat finally send Covid to small pox land. /

Smallpox became extinct in 1977, if not for the opposition from right 
wing religious people who violently opposed vaccinations (and I do 
mean violently) it could've happened a century earlier.  And just five 
years ago it looked like polio was on the verge of extinction, but 
right wing religious anti-vaccination nuts in the USA and Afghanistan 
and elsewhere have made a comeback and thus polio has made a come back 
too.


John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis 



foo



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Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

That's all right, except the part about milkmaids complexion.  Of course 
having immunity to smallpox means that a milkmaid would not have the 
extensive scarring of a smallpox survivor.  But I think cowpox also 
leaves larger, but fewer scars...link the one on my left arm.  So they 
would not be as fair as a maiden who had not had either pox.


Brent

On 9/14/2021 11:57 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 1:47 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote


/> Smallpox is different in that only humans get it. /


There is a virus very similar to Smallpox called "Cowpox" that both 
humans and cows can get; when humans get it the symptoms are quite 
mild, you might feel a little subpar for a day or two but that's about 
it, however the two viruses are so similar that when you've recovered 
from Cowpox you've also received a lifetime immunity to Smallpox. 
That's why milkmaids had the reputation for being unusually beautiful, 
nearly all had been infected with Cowpox so they never had smallpox, 
thus they didn't have the Smallpox facial scars that most adults had. 
That's why 17th century Flemish artists love to paint milkmaids.


Vermeer's "TheMilkmaid" 
<https://i1.wp.com/www.michaelsheehanphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/20160305-1107372138-3-3-copy.jpg>



And that's how Edward Jennergot the idea of using cowpox in his 
smallpox vaccine.


/> Covid probably can't be completely eliminated because there
seem to animals that carry it. /


I think if you went back far enough you'd find that nearly all human 
pathogens originated in an animalvirus that underwent a mutation.


/> That's part of the reason influenza can't be eliminated./


Thanks to CRISPR gene editing I wouldn't be surprised if we had a 
universal influenza vaccine quite soon:


NIH launches clinical trial of universal influenza vaccine 
<https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-launches-clinical-trial-universal-influenza-vaccine-candidate>


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>


yel
vom


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Re: NYTimes.com: White House Seeks $65 Billion for ‘Apollo’ Plan to Prepare for Future Pandemics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Smallpox is different in that only humans get it.  Covid probably can't 
be completely eliminated because there seem to animals that carry it.  
That's part of the reason influenza can't be eliminated.


Brent

On 9/14/2021 4:17 AM, John Clark wrote:


/> This treatment focus would buy enough time to produce
eventuallysuper vaccinesthat finally send Covid to small pox land. /

Smallpox became extinct in 1977, if not for the opposition from right 
wing religious people who violently opposed vaccinations (and I do 
mean violently) it could've happened a century earlier.  And just five 
years ago it looked like polio was on the verge of extinction, but 
right wing religious anti-vaccination nuts in the USA and Afghanistan 
and elsewhere have made a comeback and thus polio has made a come back 
too.


John K Clark


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Re: NYTimes.com: A.I. Can Now Write Its Own Computer Code. That’s Good News for Humans.

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

That's interesting.  Does Coq let you change axioms?  In what Feynman 
called "Persian" mathematics, you're interested in what axioms support a 
given theorem, not the other way around as in "Greek" mathematics.


My wife (who's a mechanical engineer) were just discussing how calculus 
is regarded as the "hard mathematics" in college.  But I wonder if it's 
a matter of how it's taught.  When she and I went school a lot of 
calculus was learning tricks and approximations to do integration.  
Conceptually it wasn't that hard.  And in applications, nobody worries 
much about the tricks anymore because they just give it a computer.  
Mathematica knows the tricks and there's easy numerical integration 
algorithms.  Does that mean we are losing contact with how it actually 
works...not at all.  Those tricks and approximations just obfuscated 
"what was really going on".


I wonder how calculus is taught now in high school and undergrad college 
courses?  ISTM is could be much clearer and conceptual and easier to learn.


Brent

On 9/13/2021 2:49 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
I am learning about Coq, which is a theorem proving/proof checking 
system. The one problem with this or some AI code generating system is 
that we humans will start losing more contact with how things actually 
work.


LC

On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 5:38:38 AM UTC-5 johnk...@gmail.com 
wrote:


From The New York Times:

A.I. Can Now Write Its Own Computer Code. That’s Good News for Humans.

A new technology called Codex generates programs in 12 coding
languages and even translates between them. But it is not a threat
to professional programmers.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/09/technology/codex-artificial-intelligence-coding.html?smid=em-share



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Consciousness research

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q78UL1gYhXI

Four researchers on consciousness who take a operational and scientific 
approach and have a program to try to test theories of consciousness.


Brent

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Re: Decision trees within a molecular Memristo

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

My late friend Vic Stenger's comment on this was, "You have just as many 
microtubles in the cells in your balls as in the cells in your brain."


Brent

On 9/4/2021 12:29 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
To be honest this reminds me of the fight between Hameroff v Tegmark 
15 years ago, where Hameroff and Penrose saw the quantum of the 
central feature of the way brains worked, and Tegmark called BS 
because quantum actions only worked in super cold environments.


The truth was, yes microtubules function only well above freezing but 
yes, its not quantum computing, but brains do use QFT as nearly 
everything we see is involved even on a microscopic scale with quantum 
field effects. You, me, the bird crap on the sidewalk, etc. Ad Nauseum.
Quantum and Electromagnetic Fields in Our Universe and Brain: A New 
Perspective to Comprehend Brain Function (nih.gov) 



Memristors good, Spintronics yummy, Tissue engineering & replacement 
via 3d printing, bring it on, replacement energy systems? We been 
waiting decades. I am a values kind of guy.




-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: spudboy...@aol.com
Cc: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Sat, Sep 4, 2021 3:04 pm
Subject: Re: Decision trees within a molecular Memristo

On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 2:38 PM > wrote


/> I have sort of noticed this as a development in computing where
QC's haven't made it out of the lab,/


Actually this is something different,this computer development has 
nothing to do with quantum computers, but a Memristorcan  sort of act 
like a neuron in a brain, but then biological brains don't make use of 
quantum mechanical principles either.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 


mmr

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Re: The American Taliban

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 9/1/2021 7:43 AM, John Clark wrote:


True, theother choice, besides getting out, was to just keep doing 
what we've been doing for the last 20 years for another 20 years and 
hope things will be different.  I note that Albert Einstein once said 
"/Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting 
different results/.”


There are also other ways of staying.  In theory we could have colonized 
Afghanistan.  I'm not sure where we'd get colonists willing to go there; 
maybe like Britain colonized Australia.  There aren't that many Afghans 
so it would have been possible in a generation or two to simply 
overwhelm and absorb them.  It would certainly have had interesting 
geopolitical consequences to have a U.S. territory or state with borders 
on Iran, China, and Pakistan.


Brent

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Re: there is no ultimate essence

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/31/2021 10:26 AM, Tomas Pales wrote:


On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 6:58:42 PM UTC+2 Brent wrote:


So eternally means momentarily.  Hmmm?


Everything exists in the same timeless moment, if you like.

Even one object is a conceputalization.  Thomas Pales now is a
different object from Thomas Pales a moment ago. And as a
physicists I may regard him as 1e30 different atoms.


My body at time t is a different object than my body at time t-1. And 
there is also another object that is a collection of those two 
objects. You can call those objects whatever you like but they are all 
there.


So you agree with me that the number things is matter of how you like to 
nominate bits of the world.


Brent

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Re: there is no ultimate essence

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/31/2021 4:44 AM, Tomas Pales wrote:


On Tuesday, August 31, 2021 at 1:51:01 AM UTC+2 Brent wrote:



On 8/30/2021 12:52 PM, Tomas Pales wrote:


On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 8:51:32 PM UTC+2 Brent wrote:


In other words eternally at a particular time. Is there any
reason I should take that seriously?


And how would you like to take it? According to theory of
relativity time is a kind of space.


So my house here is exists everywhere?


No, by "eternally" I didn't mean everywhere in the time dimension but 
without passage of time. There is no passage of time just as there is 
no passage of space.


So eternally means momentarily.  Hmmm?


Are they.  Here's two photons.  If I interchange them I have the
same state.  Here's two golf balls.  If I interchange them I have
different state.  Here's a member of the tennis team and a member
of the band.  I can't interchange them...because they are the same
person.  It's seems to me that my conceptualization makes a lot of
difference in how things map onto the natural numbers.


Just because two objects are the same doesn't mean they are one 
object. They are differentiated from each other by their position in 
reality (by their relations to other objects).


Even one object is a conceputalization.  Thomas Pales now is a different 
object from Thomas Pales a moment ago.  And as a physicists I may regard 
him as 1e30 different atoms.


Brent

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Re: there is no ultimate essence

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/30/2021 12:52 PM, Tomas Pales wrote:


On Monday, August 30, 2021 at 8:51:32 PM UTC+2 Brent wrote:


In other words eternally at a particular time.  Is there any
reason I should take that seriously?


And how would you like to take it? According to theory of relativity 
time is a kind of space.


So my house here is exists everywhere?


Any two things form a pair, why would anyone need to "nominate"
them as a pair.


Being two things, or even one thing, is a conceptualization about
the world.


All things are there. Just because you pick one or two of them doesn't 
mean they are your conceptualization.


Are they.  Here's two photons.  If I interchange them I have the same 
state.  Here's two golf balls.  If I interchange them I have different 
state.  Here's a member of the tennis team and a member of the band.  I 
can't interchange them...because they are the same person.  It's seems 
to me that my conceptualization makes a lot of difference in how things 
map onto the natural numbers.


Brent

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Re: there is no ultimate essence

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/30/2021 3:29 AM, Tomas Pales wrote:


On Sunday, August 29, 2021 at 9:11:34 PM UTC+2 Brent wrote:



On 8/29/2021 5:50 AM, Tomas Pales wrote:


On Sunday, August 29, 2021 at 1:46:50 AM UTC+2 Brent wrote:


If you ask the same question about numbers it seems that
maybe they can exist because there are a lot of different
pairs and without one of them the number 2 can count another
pair.  But can 2 exist if there are no pairs to count, or no
counters to identify pairs?


Number 2 is a relational property of all pairs. I don't think
that a property can exist without that which it is a property of.
It is the meaning/nature of property to be a property of
something. All pairs exist eternally, just like number 2 and
everything else.


All the pairs I know of, my shoes, my gloves, my dogs,... do NOT
exist eternally.  And they are only conceived of as pairs because
I and other people nominate such.


They exist eternally at a particular spacetime location.


In other words eternally at a particular time.  Is there any reason I 
should take that seriously?


Any two things form a pair, why would anyone need to "nominate" them 
as a pair.


Being two things, or even one thing, is a conceptualization about the world.

Brent

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Re: there is no ultimate essence

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/29/2021 5:50 AM, Tomas Pales wrote:


On Sunday, August 29, 2021 at 1:46:50 AM UTC+2 Brent wrote:


If you ask the same question about numbers it seems that maybe
they can exist because there are a lot of different pairs and
without one of them the number 2 can count another pair.  But can
2 exist if there are no pairs to count, or no counters to identify
pairs?


Number 2 is a relational property of all pairs. I don't think that a 
property can exist without that which it is a property of. It is the 
meaning/nature of property to be a property of something. All pairs 
exist eternally, just like number 2 and everything else.


All the pairs I know of, my shoes, my gloves, my dogs,... do NOT exist 
eternally.  And they are only conceived of as pairs because I and other 
people nominate such.


Brent

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Re: there is no ultimate essence

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/28/2021 1:59 PM, Tomas Pales wrote:


On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 11:34:07 PM UTC+2 Brent wrote:


That's almost literally Mermin's slogan for the view, which he
also advocates, "Relations without relata."  But are relations
abstracted away from relata really any different from numbers
abstracted from things counted?


Of course we can abstract relations from relata and numbers from 
things, just as we can abstract the Cheshire cat's grin from the cat. 
It doesn't mean that the grin can exist without the cat.


If you ask the same question about numbers it seems that maybe they can 
exist because there are a lot of different pairs and without one of them 
the number 2 can count another pair.  But can 2 exist if there are no 
pairs to count, or no counters to identify pairs?


Brent

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Re: The American Taliban

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/28/2021 6:11 AM, John Clark wrote:
Well the Taliban have taken over Afghanistan and have already outlawed 
the keeping of song birds as pets because they produced music, which 
is also banned, they won't even allow humming, and they have outlawed 
the flying of kites apparently because it's fun and having fun is 
banned. The Taliban previously slashed all the artworks in the Kabul 
Art Museum they could get their hands on, burned libraries, and blew 
up two huge historic 6th century statues because it depicted a leader 
of a rival religious franchise, Buddha. The Taliban require that all 
women who go out in public must be accompanied by a man and wear 
something that looks like a a hazmat suit you would wear if you were 
visiting the core of a crippled nuclear reactor or trying to help a 
highly contagious Ebola patient. And many conservatives look upon all 
this with glee and think we could use it as a blueprint for the future 
of the USA.


*The Puritan hated bear-baiting, not because it gave pain to
the bear, but because it gave pleasure to the spectators.
    -- Macaulay, "History of England, I"

Brent*

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Re: Afgan Fiasco & Unregenerated Consciousness

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/24/2021 4:08 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Brent, If this really was a democracy and not an effective oligarchy, 
your point would have some intellectual merit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746
It doesn't and this fact makes me the "cynical and false modesty" 
attribute you declaim, just like the street criminals you support, who 
say, "They made me a criminal!" I bet you support Defund The Police, 
correct?


You lose.  I think it was invented by the IRA and Putin.



Thus, your run to Virtue Signaling doesn't work, for the same reason 
that voodoo only works upon those who believe in voodoo.


As your unfounded presumptions belie your intellectual dishonesty.



The DNC made me a non-democrat voter! Tis' true.


The kind of unserious tribal reasoning I would expect.

Brent

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Re: there is no ultimate essence

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/24/2021 11:54 AM, Tomas Pales wrote:

On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 1:00:34 PM UTC+2 telmo wrote:

I haven't read "Physics for the Feeble-Minded" (yet?), but
something caught my attention in the review below:
https://theamericanscholar.org/physics-for-the-feeble-minded/


"Rovelli’s short answer to this and other bizarre takes on quantum
weirdness: Nonsense! His real purpose is to posit his own theory
of “relations.” He suggests that most, if not all, of quantum
theory’s perplexities can be resolved by understanding that there
is no ultimate essence, no Kantian Ding an sich, no existence in
and of itself attributable to a particle. What we know, since we
too are part of nature, is only how something manifests itself to
us. It is only in relation to something else that anything can be
known—and a thing can manifest itself differently to different
things."

Maybe Rovelli is ready for Marchal :)

Cheers
Telmo


Those relations are between nothings?


That's almost literally Mermin's slogan for the view, which he also 
advocates, "Relations without relata."  But are relations abstracted 
away from relata really any different from numbers abstracted from 
things counted?


Brent

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Re: Europeans are smarter than Americans

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/24/2021 1:01 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
It is censoring, and no I shan't let you all of a sudden switch to 
capitalist free enterprise guy, while holding a basic socialist world 
view.


Sorry comrade, you have absolutely no control over my opinions and 
politics...and no grasp of the facts either.  Try looking up 
"censorship" in a dictionary.


Brent

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Re: Afgan Fiasco & Unregenerated Consciousness

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/24/2021 12:39 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
The Universe may be big enough and organized enough to contain a few 
incongruities, a bit of quantum woo, and perhaps even something a bit 
hopeful in the existential sense. It may not, but like all of our 
ancestors. I will lean forward with hope, perhaps hope over 
experience? If I am wrong, I am wrong, and have been wrong many times. 
So there. I will continue peddling the woo, if I think it is 
interesting and helpful, intellectually stimulating, exciting, yadda 
yadda.


On politics (John's favorite topic) we now have this just out today:
 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/24/afghanistan-woes-sink-bidens-approval-41-usa-today-suffolk-poll/8244854002/

If politics is a popularity contest (rather than a bribe fest) this 
indicates that the choices of Joe + the DNC are mitigating against 
them, if the USAToday/Suffolk U poll is right?
Afghanistan + Plague + Inflation. Could be a short-term dive, could be 
a long term feature?


Politics is the job running a democracy.  Something your snide cynicism 
and false modesty you brag about will never comprehend.


Brent

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Re: Europeans are smarter than Americans

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/23/2021 12:29 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Trumpy is gone gone gone. It is the progressives (funded by globby 
corporations) who were obsessed with the guy. In the US,


Then why is every GOP politician, with a handful of exceptions, 
continuing to support the Big Lie that Trump won and the election was 
fraudulent.  Why are they all afraid to breathe a word against his 
corrupt, divisive, stupid policies that killed half a million fellow 
citizens?


Brent

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Re: Europeans are smarter than Americans

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

That's not censoring, that's just a private company's decision not to 
publish something.  It's their right you know...freedom of speech, 
property rights, free market.  Hawley is perfectly free to spend his own 
money publishing or get somebody else to take the risk.  Just like I 
could publish my own newspaper whenever the L.A. Times "censors" me by 
not publishing my letter to the editor.


Brent

On 8/23/2021 8:44 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Lets try this one more time. Simon and Shuster had contract to publish 
a book by US Sen. Hawley-

https://www.deseret.com/indepth/2021/1/12/5290/parler-amazon-facebook-twitter-conservatives-social-media-free-speech
Book publisher Simon & Schuster 
canceled 
Missouri GOPSen. Josh Hawley 
’s 
book contract,citing the senator’s role 
in Wednesday’s 
“dangerous threat to our democracy and freedom.” Hawley was a leader 
among congressional Republicans who objected to Biden’s Electoral 
College victory and reportedlyencouraged those who stormed the Capitol 
complex.
“After witnessing the disturbing, deadly insurrection that took place 
on Wednesday in Washington, D.C., Simon & Schuster has decided to 
cancel publication of Senator Josh Hawley’s forthcoming book, THE 
TYRANNY OF BIG TECH,” a Thursday statement from Simon & Schuster read. 
“We did not come to this decision lightly.
There's one. You did ask for one example of censoring. Trump on 
Twitter being banned, wasn't good enough for you while Jack Dorsey, 
allows the Taliban & Ayatollahs.   Hawley is still senator, by the way.


You obviously deliberately filter the information available so as not 
to deviate from your ideology. Do I do this myself? Yes, in this way, 
I consider "your media" a wing of the DNC and the people that fund DNC 
candidates, Propagandists, at first sweep. So I have a list of go-to's 
who used to be investigative journalists on your media, and see how a 
news item gets presented? Former CBS investigative report Sharyl 
Attkisson is one of these.  If it has a hit on here website, I revisit 
say, CNN to match things up and see how they present things?


but that's just me.

-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: spudboy...@aol.com
Cc: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Sun, Aug 22, 2021 3:19 pm
Subject: Re: Europeans are smarter than Americans


On Sun, Aug 22, 2021 at 1:07 PM > wrote:


/>Now you are admitting you are even lazier than I./


You have long had the bad habit of just throwing a dozen links to the 
list in the hope that one of them makes your point, but almost always 
none of them do.


/> You asked for examples,/


No I did *NOT*. I did not ask for examples, I asked for*ONE* example. 
So look over your long long list and send me your best *ONE* and I 
promise I will read that *ONE* link and I will tell you if I think it 
proves that a university or a corporation or a media outlet has 
engaged in censorship, that is imprisoning or or killing somebody for 
saying something they don't like as totalitarian countries do. You 
only need to give me *ONE* good example of that and I will concede 
defeat, just *ONE*. Hit me with your best shot.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 



tih
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Re: Afghanistan papers

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/19/2021 8:56 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 10:50 AM Henrik Ohrstrom 
mailto:henrik.ohrst...@gmail.com>> wrote:


/> The Soviets tried to murder Afghanistan to submission, and
failed. /
/US is nowhere as violently murderous as the Soviets and Supriya!
Killing for peace failed again!/
/No-one are as good at murdering Afghanis as Afghanis. Not even
old school great Britannia could murder enough to make a dent in
Afghanistan./


Yeah, there's a reason Afghanistan has been called the Graveyard Of 
Empires. Since 2001 the USA has spent 2 trillion dollars fighting the 
Taliban, for that amount of money we could've given $54,000 to every 
man, woman and child living in Afghanistan, and in retrospect that 
might have actually been a better option.
John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 



The total ultimate Afghan war bill is estimated as more than $6.4 
trillion, according to the Cost of War Project at Brown University. That 
includes the pension and medical costs which will be incurred over the 
next 80  years.  So we could have given them $164,000 per person.  Or we 
could have given every American $18,300.


Brent

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Re: Afghanistan papers

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/19/2021 2:47 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 8:11 PM > wrote:


/> I would have considered using thermobaric weapons to blast them
out of the mountains,/


Iasked for your solution to win the war in Afghanistan and turn the 
country into a stable peaceful democracy, and this is what I get.


I think I do know how to do that; at least it's what I would try if I 
were President.  I'd have flooded the country with television sets and 
broadcasts via satellites with plenty of Islamic content but leaning to 
the Sufi, plus real world news and science and Hollywood entertainment.  
I actually think Western culture, science, literature, philosophy, art 
is superior in the sense that given exposure and a choice, people will 
choose it.  Sure, it would take a generation, maybe two, but it would be 
relatively peaceful and in the end Afghanistan might become an ally.  
It's also what I would try with Iran.


Brent

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Re: Europeans are smarter than Americans

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/18/2021 7:31 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 8:04 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote:


/> The Talibans are worst than ISIS,/


Agreed.

/> I was hoping that America stays much longer in Afghanistan,/


After 20 years, 2448 dead American soldiers, and 2 trillion dollars 
down the drain (enough to land a man on Mars, and with just another 3 
or 4 trillion you could bring him back home again) I think it's time 
to say enough is enough. Biden figured If they can't stand on their 
own 2 feet by now they never will be able to.  And as events proved, 
the instant they were no longer being propped up they collapsed 
instantaneously. We should've gotten out in 2011 when Osama bin Laden 
was killed.


We should have gotten our in 2001 when the Taliban offered to hand over 
bin Laden to a neutral country for trial.




> /and fight against the corruption which put the democracy at risk,/


Most Afghans don't seem to want democracy very much if at all, they're 
certainly not willing to fight for it, but most are more than willing 
to die for their crackpot religion. The USA could and did buy lots of 
weapons for the Afghans, but they couldn't buy the will to fight with 
them.


I find it hard to fault them.  I wouldn't want to fight for a 
kleptocracy in Kabul that just existed by U.S. fiat.




/> and I think that this event is again a major catastrophe for
*all* democracies./


Yes, but it's an even greater catastrophe for China. Afghanistan is on 
China's doorstep and as much as the Taliban hate Americans they hate 
godless communists even more, and there are about 70 million Muslims 
in China.  I don't think the Taliban will be shy about inciting that 
Chinese minority to cause internal trouble.


/> Biden felt in a major trap left by Trump, imo./



He didn't "felt in a trap".  He advised Obama to pull out in 2010.

Brent



Yes but given that the only alternative was to stay in Afghanistan 
forever I think Biden made the right choice. It had to happen sometime 
and whenever it happened the results would be ugly,so it might as well 
happen now.
John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis 


oqo
aqa


nb
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Re: Europeans are smarter than Americans

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

It puzzles me that the government we set up in Kabul seems to have no 
interest in retaining power by fighting the Taliban.  Sure, they're 
corrupt.  But even corrupt regimes like to keep power.


Brent

On 8/14/2021 6:01 AM, John Clark wrote:

Anonymous coward spudboy100 wrote:

/> A great plan and an example of liberal brains, just like
Biden's Afghanistan actions right this second. Looking Good./
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08/13/world/afghanistan-taliban



Given that US troops have been fighting and dying in Afghanistan for 
20 years, and for 20 years the USA has provided the Afghan government 
with every weapon it asked for making their army far better 
provisioned than the Taliban's, and given that despite this huge 
advantage the Afghan government collapsed *THE VERY INSTANT THE US 
TROOPS LEFT*, it is clear, and has actually been clear for over a 
decade, that they were only two alternatives:


1) Stay in Afghanistan forever.
2) Admit the obvious truth that the war is lost and get out.

President Biden chose the second alternative, and because he knew 
there would never be a good time to do it he figured he might as well 
do it right now. And as painful as it was I think it was the correct 
choice. Even Trump, dumb as he is, was smart enough to know this, 
Trump assumed he would be reelected and said:


/"Getting out of Afghanistan is a wonderful and positive thing to do, 
I planned to withdraw on May 1st 2021, and we should keep as close to 
that schedule as possible."/


Well, Biden gave Afghanistan 4 more months than Trump would have, but 
of course 4 more months did no good, 4 more decades wouldn't have 
helped either.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 


44nx

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Re: NYTimes.com: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for a week over a video disputing the effectiveness of masks.

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/12/2021 6:44 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
All 3 contributed to the democrats Brent. Bezos owns the Washington 
Post. The owner of Berkshire Hathaway, that Prophet of the Plains is 
100% democrat. Gates went for the democrats this time for sure!


The people who your image has listed-
Warren Buffet: Democrat
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/see-much-money-warren-buffett-090008703.html

Here's the rest of them Brent, Mr. Microsoft kicked cash to the DNC 
also (20 more Globbies)

https://www.yahoo.com/now/mark-zuckerberg-bill-gates-wealthy-americans-us-election-172844100.html


What's your point?  Inequity is huge problem in the U.S.  That three out 
of a the Forbes 400 donated money to Dems, doesn't solve any problem 
except for you looking to place blame.





Your DNC is doing a class war, and so has the RNC. Your team is now 
The Party of the Richest people in the US and their campaign money 
buys influence. Were you funning me, or are you so ideological that 
you pay no attention to who does what? For a moment I thought you were 
kidding.


This is an oligarchy. Vote for whomever you want to, but don't be 
naïve on good guys v bad guys. That is what the old philosophers 
termed Manichean. They're all bad guys my good chap. Pick your James 
Bond villain, Dr. No, or Ernst Stavros Blofeld? Look it up on 
opensecrets.org tomorrow (non-partisan) and follow the money. You will 
see for yourself.


Yeah, that's the old whataboutism.  They all do it, so you can just 
stand back an throw shit on the wall.  It doesn't make your Prince in 
Mar a Lago any less of a threat to democracy.


Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for a week over a video disputing the effectiveness of masks.

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/12/2021 10:19 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

John, unlike your accusation, I ain't going after the last war.


You ain't going after anything.  You've never proposed a single 
constructive policy or positive step.  All you do is spew innuendo and 
alternative facts.  You're apparently fine with voter suppression, 
gerrymandering, and disproportionate representation. Facilitating the 
pandemic.  Shooting unarmed black men.    Giving tax breaks to the 
richest people in America:




Anything to keep your team in power and "own the libs".  Policy, nation, 
democracy, equity, Earth be damned.


Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for a week over a video disputing the effectiveness of masks.

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/11/2021 10:54 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Yeah. Let me know if you're willing to offer anything to the American 
team, and then we can counter offer.


Infrastructure bill, which most repugs voted against.

I believe that Team dem is disinterested in any counter offers as a 
matter of policy because they are not interested in resolving.-
global warming, pollution, gun violence, over population, or anything 
else that would discomfit the richest 0.1%.


Instead your team is holding the Diplomatic Service hostage to get Biden 
to apply more sanctions to building the Russia-to-Germany pipeline; 
sanctions that didn't work during the Trump administration so the 
pipeline's already 95% done.


On 8/12/2021 4:43 AM, The Washington Post wrote:



  White House presses Senate to move more quickly to confirm
  political ambassadors: ‘What is the holdup?’
  
<https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-presses-senate-to-move-more-quickly-to-confirm-political-ambassadors-what-is-the-holdup/2021/08/11/636f41aa-facc-11eb-9c0e-97e29906a970_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_politics_am_medium=email_source=newsletter=nl_politics=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F346222e%2F6115083d9d2fda2f47f06b99%2F596a7b25ae7e8a0ef33edb58%2F26%2F49%2F6115083d9d2fda2f47f06b99>

Only one of President Biden’s political ambassadors, Ken Salazar, has 
been confirmed more than six months after the inauguration.


By Felicia Sonmez ● Read more » 
<https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-presses-senate-to-move-more-quickly-to-confirm-political-ambassadors-what-is-the-holdup/2021/08/11/636f41aa-facc-11eb-9c0e-97e29906a970_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_politics_am_medium=email_source=newsletter=nl_politics=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F346222e%2F6115083d9d2fda2f47f06b99%2F596a7b25ae7e8a0ef33edb58%2F27%2F49%2F6115083d9d2fda2f47f06b99> 







Why negotiate with people you seek to be rid of, savvy?


Yeah, that seems to be Moscow Mitch's philosophy.  Just have the state 
legislatures keep them from being elected.



Americans.
Moreover, Therichest 0.1 are all yours. The woke corporations, the 
traders with Xi's genocidal China. The boards of directors. Wall 
Street, Sili Valley, The Banks, Media and Academia. All your ruling 
class.


Not mine.  They're all Repugs and Trumpists.

Brent




Ciao.





From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Aug 12, 2021 12:37 am
Subject: Re: NYTimes.com: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for a week over a 
video disputing the effectiveness of masks.




On 8/11/2021 7:53 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Why does the empty shelf figure have a hook-nose and a beard? Tain't 
Rand Paul, and the brainy guy doesn't resemble The Fauch. It was your 
team arfing at Jason Resch last year regarding the efficacy of 
hydrochlorquine, remember?  All he pondered was, "Does this old drug 
have any use, lets examine this," Hydro, because y'all (I am no 
Southerner) Progressive thought Donny liked it. It doesn't seem to 
work, but as the virus mutates it might be sharper of us to spread our 
research money into actual treatments and cures rather than vaccines. 
If one contracts Variant Kappa-21, and a shot of Elucia-Zex prevents 
or halts a cytokine storm then we're all better for it.


This is why I turned away from the progressive side. Your team is all 
about enemies and power and disinterested in problem solving, 
especially technological fixes.


That's pretty funny since your team is led by a guy who takes pride in 
calling himself "The Grim Reaper" and stopping any action to address 
global warming, pollution, gun violence, over population, or anything 
else that would discomfit the richest 0.1%.  And Donny Dump who's only 
concern is to pervert the election system so he can take you 
ass-kissers back to White House, while he denies even the existence of 
global warming.


Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for a week over a video disputing the effectiveness of masks.

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/11/2021 7:53 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Why does the empty shelf figure have a hook-nose and a beard? Tain't 
Rand Paul, and the brainy guy doesn't resemble The Fauch. It was your 
team arfing at Jason Resch last year regarding the efficacy of 
hydrochlorquine, remember?  All he pondered was, "Does this old drug 
have any use, lets examine this," Hydro, because y'all (I am no 
Southerner)  Progressive thought Donny liked it. It doesn't seem to 
work, but as the virus mutates it might be sharper of us to spread our 
research money into actual treatments and cures rather than vaccines. 
If one contracts Variant Kappa-21, and a shot of Elucia-Zex prevents 
or halts a cytokine storm then we're all better for it.


This is why I turned away from the progressive side. Your team is all 
about enemies and power and disinterested in problem solving, 
especially technological fixes.


That's pretty funny since your team is led by a guy who takes pride in 
calling himself "The Grim Reaper" and stopping any action to address 
global warming, pollution, gun violence, over population, or anything 
else that would discomfit the richest 0.1%.  And Donny Dump who's only 
concern is to pervert the election system so he can take you ass-kissers 
back to White House, while he denies even the existence of global warming.


Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: Fauci Wants to Make Vaccines for the Next Pandemic Before It Hits

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/7/2021 1:56 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
It's likely that I don't know how to use Google, but I do know how 
with Starpage and Duckduckgo. Fauci is no hero is any sense of the 
word and like most democrats have no issue siding with America's 
physically, most determined and deadly enemy, Xi's China.


You mean the guy Trump greeted warmly at Mar-a-Lago and praised in 
Beijing in 2017, while he said nothing about bases built in the South 
China Sea or Chinese currency manipulation and trade barriers he accused 
them of in his campaign.


From your media pals at Politico, comes an article that has been 
surprisingly prescient.



  Exclusive: Why Trump went hard on China, and Biden will follow

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-china-watcher/2021/04/15/exclusive-how-trump-dramatically-shifted-us-china-policy-492476

Fauci sides with Xi as does the DNC & all the Woke Boards of Directors 
at the big corporation$ because, money.


What does it mean "sides with Xi"?  They're both against the pandemic?

They also gamble, and what is the stock market but gambling, that 
things will stay stable enough for the boards and their chief 
inve$tors, to increase profits. The Reps are also not immune from this 
feature.


That's what I call a Prof Harold Hill argument.  Fauci starts with "F" 
and that's followed by "G" and "G" stands for gambling. And there's 
gambling on Wall Street and it's done to increase profits...which starts 
with "P" and stands for Potato.


Brent



When Xi strikes, those that sided with him will be focused upon.

What about Biden? Well, no! His ass is Golden. Here is why:


  US Air Force to send dozens of F-22 fighter jets to the Pacific amid
  tensions with China

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/15/asia/us-air-force-f-22-guam-tinian-exercise-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

See, like I said the Politico article was prescient?

-----Original Message-----
From: John Clark 
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
Sent: Sat, Aug 7, 2021 6:45 am
Subject: NYTimes.com: Fauci Wants to Make Vaccines for the Next 
Pandemic Before It Hits


On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 9:25 PM <mailto:spudboy...@aol.com>> wrote:

/
/
/
/

/> I am doubtful that the democrats who claim they are on the side
of science, are actively funding preparations in advance of any
new viruses. If we go by your buddies at CNN there is no apparent
move for specifically fund research, before any new plague starts.
Maybe you can find news of any new research, I could not./


You sure didn't look very hard, or maybe you just don't know how to 
use Google. Your scientific nemesis and Trump's, Dr. Anthony Fauci, 
thinks for the next pandemic is only a matter of time, so hewants to 
get to work right now on a program to develop prototype universal 
vaccines for 20 different families of viruses that could potentially 
undergo just one small mutation and start the next pandemic. Such a 
program would discover the precise 3D chemical structure of the 
viruses  so that antibodies could be developed that have the correct 
shape to fit in and attack the parts of the outer coating of the 
viruses that are stable and do not mutate so we could have a vaccine 
that would work against all likely mutated versions of the virus 
family. Dr. Fauci says research tools have become so powerful in the 
last few years that such a program is actually feasible, although it 
would cost "a few billion dollars” a year, take five years for the 
first crop of results and engage a huge cadre of scientists". Dr. 
Fauci said he has been promoting the idea “in discussions with the 
White House and others.” and  “If we get the funding, which I believe 
we will, it likely will start in 2022.”


A few billion dollars may seem like a lot of money but it's peanuts 
compared to the multi trillion dollar economic damage that COVID-19 
has already caused, not to mention the 650,000 Americans who have died 
because of it. So I agree with Dr. Fauci, I think that program will 
start in 2022,  unless of course Trump's Republican minions in the US 
Senate manage to block it with a filibuster, but if they do those 
Senator's names will be remembered during the next pandemic.


John K Clark
---
>From The New York Times:

Fauci Wants to Make Vaccines for the Next Pandemic Before It Hits

If funded, a government program costing several billion dollars could 
develop “prototype” vaccines to protect against 20 families of viruses.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/health/fauci-prototype-vaccines.html?smid=em-share 
<https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/health/fauci-prototype-vaccines.html?smid=em-share>

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Re: Vaccine statistics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

More B.S. from Mr Potatohead

On 8/7/2021 1:29 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
1. The innuendo comes from a lab researcher that was involved with the 
research.


Innuendo is unargued, unsupported implication.  It doesn't matter who it 
comes from.


2. He gave tax dollars to an already hostile genocidal regime to fund 
virus gain of function research.


He funded a private U.S. company to do research.  That company 
subcontracted some data collection to Wuhan.


3. Fauci was deliberately deceptive in claiming the immunity rate need 
only be 75% when he said he knew it needed to be 90%.


He didn't know it needed to be 90% because he didn't know it was as 
infectious as the delta variant because it wasn't.  How do you know what 
is deliberate or not.  You can't even tell what's reasonable or not.




I think the American people deserve better as with somebody more 
honest, accurate, and less involved with a tyrannical, genocidal regime.


And we need someone who's not afraid to use their real name to spread B.S.

Brent



-Original Message-
From: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 


To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Aug 6, 2021 9:59 pm
Subject: Re: Vaccine statistics



On 8/6/2021 6:25 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
He guided funds from the CDC to the Wuhan lab, which apparently, 
spread the virus to the world. The research there was gain of function.

From the BBC article:

Gain of function research is conducted to anticipate what pathogens 
may mutate to spread to other animals and humans.  This is done to get 
ahead of natural mutation rates.  It is not to produce more virulent 
pathogens.


"US researcher and biologist Alina Chan at the Broad Institute of MIT 
and Harvard has highlighted issues with the wording 
<https://twitter.com/Ayjchan/status/1370882805408935942?s=20> of the 
government's pause to funding in 2014.
It says that it would stop funding research that "may be reasonably 
anticipated to confer attributes to influenza, MERS, or SARS viruses 
such that the virus would have enhanced pathogenicity and/or 
transmissibility in mammals via the respiratory route."


Of course, that's what the research would be trying to determine.

You're just spreading more muddle headed interpretations by innuendo.

Brent

This could imply that research on viruses may not intend to produce 
"gain-of-function", although that could be the end result of it."

https://www.bbc.com/news/57932699 <https://www.bbc.com/news/57932699>

If, we even do have a "2024" election, I suspect that Gohmert will 
not be the lead boy, and neither will Trump. I am doubtful that the 
democrats who claim they are on the side of science, are actively 
funding preparations in advance of any new viruses.


But you're not doubtful because of evidence.  You're doubtful because 
that feeds your political ego that you're smarter and more informed 
after drinking Rupert's koolaid.


Brent


If we go by your buddies at CNN there is no apparent move for 
specifically fund research, before any new plague starts. Maybe you 
can find news of any new research, I could not.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/31/politics/infrastructure-proposal-biden-explainer/index.html 
<https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/31/politics/infrastructure-proposal-biden-explainer/index.html>





-Original Message-
From: John Clark  <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Fri, Aug 6, 2021 5:08 pm
Subject: Re: Vaccine statistics

On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 4:26 PM spudboy100 via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


/> Fauci still defends his funding of the Wuhan lab, which was
involved in gain of function for the virus./


Dr.Fauci has not done anything he needs to defend, and I very much 
hope gain of function studies continue; bats are a magnet for 
coronaviruses, most cannot infect humans but for some only a single 
small mutation is needed for them to gain the ability to do so. That 
is information well worth having so we can prepare for the next 
pandemic before it gets totally out of hand as this one has. However, 
preventing the next pandemic will likely be impossible if in 2024 
Trump or one of Trump's Troglodytes such as Louie Gohmert is elected 
president.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>


uyt
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Re: Vaccine statistics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/6/2021 6:25 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
He guided funds from the CDC to the Wuhan lab, which apparently, 
spread the virus to the world. The research there was gain of function.

From the BBC article:


Gain of function research is conducted to anticipate what pathogens may 
mutate to spread to other animals and humans.  This is done to get ahead 
of natural mutation rates.  It is not to produce more virulent pathogens.


"US researcher and biologist Alina Chan at the Broad Institute of MIT 
and Harvard has highlighted issues with the wording 
<https://twitter.com/Ayjchan/status/1370882805408935942?s=20> of the 
government's pause to funding in 2014.
It says that it would stop funding research that "may be reasonably 
anticipated to confer attributes to influenza, MERS, or SARS viruses 
such that the virus would have enhanced pathogenicity and/or 
transmissibility in mammals via the respiratory route."


Of course, that's what the research would be trying to determine.

You're just spreading more muddle headed interpretations by innuendo.

Brent

This could imply that research on viruses may not intend to produce 
"gain-of-function", although that could be the end result of it."

https://www.bbc.com/news/57932699

If, we even do have a "2024" election, I suspect that Gohmert will not 
be the lead boy, and neither will Trump. I am doubtful that the 
democrats who claim they are on the side of science, are actively 
funding preparations in advance of any new viruses.


But you're not doubtful because of evidence.  You're doubtful because 
that feeds your political ego that you're smarter and more informed 
after drinking Rupert's koolaid.


Brent


If we go by your buddies at CNN there is no apparent move for 
specifically fund research, before any new plague starts. Maybe you 
can find news of any new research, I could not.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/31/politics/infrastructure-proposal-biden-explainer/index.html




-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
Sent: Fri, Aug 6, 2021 5:08 pm
Subject: Re: Vaccine statistics

On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 4:26 PM spudboy100 via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


/> Fauci still defends his funding of the Wuhan lab, which was
involved in gain of function for the virus./


Dr.Fauci has not done anything he needs to defend, and I very much 
hope gain of function studies continue; bats are a magnet for 
coronaviruses, most cannot infect humans but for some only a single 
small mutation is needed for them to gain the ability to do so. That 
is information well worth having so we can prepare for the next 
pandemic before it gets totally out of hand as this one has. However, 
preventing the next pandemic will likely be impossible if in 2024 
Trump or one of Trump's Troglodytes such as Louie Gohmert is elected 
president.


John K Clark   See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>


uyt
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Re: Vaccine statistics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/5/2021 8:49 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Fauci is not helpful in his CDC mission. For instance last year he 
said he change the percentage of what it would take to reach national 
immunity because the felt it would make us feel bad. He said at the 
time 75%, when he calculated it to be 90%. Just tell us the truth.


Unlike Potatoes for Trump, scientists change their mind when they get 
new data.  R0 for the alpha variant was about 3, so having 2/3=67% of 
the population immune would give herd immunity.  The R0 for the delta 
variant is around 8, so you need 7/8= 87.5% immune in order to have herd 
immunity.


His ties with the Wuhan lab make him unsuitable for taking advice from 
unless you hear it from somebody else more trustworthy.


Ties?  You mean the idiotic innuendo that Trumpist substitute for evidence?

Brent

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Re: Vaccine statistics

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 8/5/2021 3:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
And, bad news, those lie begins early in arithmetic, where I got 
evidences that might PA + []f proves much more than PA + ~[]f. []f is 
a sort of axiom of infinity in disguise. The Gödel number of a proof 
of false in elementary arithmetic is a non standard natural number, 
and is bigger than all standard natural numbers. The lies and the 
errors have a deeper origin that I thought. They have their role, ... 
but that is not necessarily a reason to propagate them, on the contrary.


Bruno


Isn't []f inconsistency and allows (in common logic) the proof of every 
proposition?


Brent

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Re: Europeans are smarter than Americans?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Certainly had an accurate headline...but why did it appear from LC?

Brent

On 8/4/2021 3:41 AM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

What an incredible pile or rubbish!


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Re: Europeans are smarter than Americans

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

America has the BEST populist demagogues!  USA! USA!

Brent

On 7/29/2021 6:32 AM, John Clark wrote:
I guess the Atlantic Ocean was wide enough to keep Europeans from 
catching the stupid disease from the highly contagious Donald Trump:


The European Union pulls ahead of the United States in Vaccinations 



John K Clark
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Re: NYTimes.com: A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/28/2021 6:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
What do you mean by non effective. 


It doesn't produce any testable predictions.  It doesn't explain why we 
are fooled by some optical illusions and not others.  It doesn't predict 
who will suffer Alzheimer's and who won't.  It doesn't explain why most 
mathematics is done subconsciously (c.f. Poincare').


The theory of consciousness (the knowledge that there is a reality) 
brought by the universal machine, all by itself, is *effective*. It 
entails immediately the many-worlds appearances (I got it long before 
I discovered Everett or even QM), 


You got it...but it's untestable and no one knows wether it's true. As 
you are fond of saying, it's theology...like discovering heaven.


Brent

and it entails that the logic of the observable is given by precise 
 intensional variants of the provability logic, and indeed, we got 
them there. Only the future experimentation will refute this theory, 
and Mechanism by the same token. It is hard to imagine a more 
effective theory. In fact, I predicted in the 1970 that it would be 
refuted before 2000. That did not happen, and I am not sure why, 
probably a lack of interest in serious theoretical 
bio-psycho-theology. But the burden of the ontological proof is in the 
hand of the believer (in a material pricey universe). No need to study 
the theology of the machine, as the simple fact that all computations 
are executed in arithmetic is enough to put physicalism in doubt. But 
the theology of the machine confirms that such an existence is feely 
plausible, beside making the mind-body problem unsolvable with Mechanism.
A pedagogical problem is that many people confuse the physical reality 
(that no one doubt), and the assumption that the physical reality is 
not explainable from something non physical which is what Mechanism 
put a doubt upon.


Bruno

On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 12:19:48 AM UTC+2 Brent wrote:



On 7/26/2021 2:15 PM, John Clark wrote:


On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:17 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything
List  wrote:

>> That's the problem, ALL consciousness theories are good
enough, they all fit the facts equally well, choosing one
is entirely a matter of taste.

/So whether consciousness is a function of brain processes or
is immortal soul stuff are equally good theories? Both
consistent with the fact that alcohol affects
consciousness...assuming it affects soul stuff?/


I don't drink but I'm sure alcohol would affect my consciousness
and my behavior,and I would be able to prove it affects your
behavior too, but I have no way of proving it affects your
consciousness, assuming you even have consciousness.


You keep resorting to "prove" and "know" to argue that science
can't apply to consciousness.  All theories of consciousness are
equally good and bad.  But "prove" and "know" are not the standard
in any science.  We never "prove" or "know" things in physics
either.  All we ask for is predictive power and theoretical
consilience.




/> If tomorrow I came up with a theory and implemented it
with a machine that could scan any brain at any moment and
tell me what that brain was consciously thinking...an
effective theory of consciousness...then/


Then I would ask, how do you know the machine is working
properly, and how on earth do you read the machine's output?


The machine prints out "JKC is thinking about Kate Beckinsale" 
and then I ask you and you say, "I was thinking about Bruno
Marchal"...but I can see the erection.



Suppose I'm sad and you put me in the machine and the pointer on
the machine's sadness dial moves to the 62.4 mark, does that
number enable you to understand what it's like for John K Clark
to be sad? I don't think so.


But I can already understand what it's like for John K Clark to be
sad, because I've been sad.  Isn't that a good theory...and don't
tell me it doesn't /*prove*/ that I know.




> people like Chalmers would still whine, "But what is it
fundamentally?"


Exactly, even if by some miracleyou could somehow prove thatX
caused consciousness they would still not be satisfied, they
would demand to know WHY X causes consciousness, and they want to
know what caused X.


My point is that none of that prevents having an effective theory
of consciousness.  It's my main compliant about Bruno's theory. 
It's almost completely descriptive of what conscious information
processing might be.  It's not effective.

Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/26/2021 2:15 PM, John Clark wrote:


On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:17 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


>> That's the problem, ALL consciousness theories are good
enough, they all fit the facts equally well, choosing one is
entirely a matter of taste.

/So whether consciousness is a function of brain processes or is
immortal soul stuff are equally good theories?  Both consistent
with the fact that alcohol affects consciousness...assuming it
affects soul stuff?/


I don't drink but I'm sure alcohol would affect my consciousness and 
my behavior,and I would be able to prove it affects your behavior too, 
but I have no way of proving it affects your consciousness, assuming 
you even have consciousness.


You keep resorting to "prove" and "know" to argue that science can't 
apply to consciousness.  All theories of consciousness are equally good 
and bad.  But "prove" and "know" are not the standard in any science.  
We never "prove" or "know" things in physics either.  All we ask for is 
predictive power and theoretical consilience.




/> If tomorrow I came up with a theory and implemented it with a
machine that could scan any brain at any moment and tell me what
that brain was consciously thinking...an effective theory of
consciousness...then/


Then I would ask, how do you know the machine is working properly, and 
how on earth do you read the machine's output?


The machine prints out "JKC is thinking about Kate Beckinsale"  and then 
I ask you and you say, "I was thinking about Bruno Marchal"...but I can 
see the erection.


Suppose I'm sad and you put me in the machine and the pointer on the 
machine's sadness dial moves to the 62.4 mark, does that number enable 
you to understand what it's like for John K Clark to be sad? I don't 
think so.


But I can already understand what it's like for John K Clark to be sad, 
because I've been sad.  Isn't that a good theory...and don't tell me it 
doesn't /*prove*/ that I know.




> people like Chalmers would still whine, "But what is it
fundamentally?"


Exactly, even if by some miracleyou could somehow prove thatX caused 
consciousness they would still not be satisfied, they would demand to 
know WHY X causes consciousness, and they want to know what caused X.


My point is that none of that prevents having an effective theory of 
consciousness.  It's my main compliant about Bruno's theory.  It's 
almost completely descriptive of what conscious information processing 
might be.  It's not effective.


Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/26/2021 11:41 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 1:25 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


>> When it comes to consciousness I have one and only one data
point to work with, and there are an infinite number of ways
to draw a line through a single point.


/> Really? /


Yes really.

/> Do you really reject the theory that other people are conscious
in a way similar to you? /


No. As I've said more than once, I accept the theory that other people 
are conscious but not for any scientific reason, not because it fits 
the facts better than any other consciousness theory, but simply 
because I could not function if I really thought I was the only 
conscious being in the universe.  The consciousness gurus want to 
understand at the most fundamental level how consciousness works in 
the same way that they understand how Newtonian physics works, and 
that just ain't going to happen; they've made zero progress during the 
last thousand years and I expect they'll make just as much in the next 
thousand. Consciousness research is a bore, intelligence research is 
where it's at.


/> There are certainly similarities of intelligence, including the
ways in which we a tricked by illusions and priming by words.  I
think the "hard problem of consciousness" is made hard by this
kind insistence on incorrigible personal subjectivity which if it
were applied consistently would make all science impossible:/


That doesn't make any sense. Yes, if you're scientifically studying 
objective realitylike physics or biology then personal subjectivityis 
of no help and just gets in the way, but if you're studying personal 
subjectivity then ... well ... you've got to study personal 
subjectivity, and there is no way to do that objectively or 
scientifically.


>///"Well I seem to have heard Bob say that the needle pointed to
2.23 but how do I know he meant the same thing that I do when I
see the needle point to 2.23."/


If I'm studying consciousness then I don't care what Bob says and I 
don't care what Bob does, I only care what Bob feels, and there is no 
way to do that scientificallywithout making unproven and unprovable 
assumptions.



/> With sufficiently bizarre ancillary assumptions.  You
apparently agree with Bruno that a blow to the head doesn't
eliminate consciousness thru a effect on your brain; it's merely a
discontinuity in the stream of experiences called "John K Clark"
and his brain is merely a construct of this stream. /


I don't agree with that, or maybe I do, I'm not sure becauseI don't  
know what it means.I think John K Clark is the way matter behaves when 
it is organized in a johnkclarkian way.


/> Do you think you could be conscious in the way you are without
language?/


Certainly not. My consciousness wouldn't be the same as it is nowif I 
knew no language, and my consciousness would be different if mynative 
language was Spanish rather than English too, or if I had been born in 
Sweden rather than the USA.


/> Empiricists just look of a good enough theory./


That's the problem,ALL consciousness theories are good enough, they 
all fit the facts equally well, choosing one is entirely a matter of 
taste.


So whether consciousness is a function of brain processes or is immortal 
soul stuff are equally good theories?  Both consistent with the fact 
that alcohol affects consciousness...assuming it affects soul stuff?


And there is no arguing in matters of taste. And because objective 
empiricism is of no help in understanding the fundamental nature of 
consciousness, the field has not advanced one nanometer in the last 
thousand years.


Now you're trying to move the goal post.  Bruno says, with equal 
justification, there's been no advancement in understanding the 
/*fundamental*/ nature of matter in the last thousand years.  Sure we've 
got a lot of effective theories, but what is matter /*really*/? And 
that's exactly my complaint about the "hard problem of consciousness".  
If tomorrow I came up with a theory and implemented it with a machine 
that could scan any brain at any moment and tell me what that brain was 
consciously thinking...an effective theory of consciousness...then 
people like Chalmers would still whine, "But what is it fundamentally?"


Brent



John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>


nn22





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Re: NYTimes.com: A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/26/2021 2:32 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 7:09 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


>> In the final analysis the only way to test a theory is by
making objective observations about the way things behave, but
consciousness is a subjective phenomenon and that's what
causes the problem. The theory that other humans besides me
are conscious is perfectly consistent with all observable
evidence, but so is the theory that I am the only conscious
being in the universe, 



/> But that's inconsistent with the theory that consciousness
is instantiated by physical processes in the brain./


No it is not. Your brain operates differently than my brain, if it did 
not then we would be the same person. Only one chunk of matter in the 
observable universe operates in a johnkclarkien way, and the theory 
that the johnkclarkien way is the only way consciousness can be 
produced is perfectly consistent with all observational evidence 
available to me. And even I am not conscious all the time, not when 
I'm sleeping or under anesthetic and I almost certainly won't be 
conscious when I'm dead either.


> And that theory is supported by many observations and experiments
on brains and the reports by subjects.


Many? When it comes to consciousness I have one and only one data 
point to work with, and there are an infinite number of ways to draw a 
line through a single point.


Really?  Do you really reject the theory that other people are conscious 
in a way similar to you?  There are certainly similarities of 
intelligence, including the ways in which we a tricked by illusions and 
priming by words.  I think the "hard problem of consciousness" is made 
hard by this kind insistence on incorrigible personal subjectivity which 
if it were applied consistently would make all science impossible: "Well 
I seem to have heard Bob say that the needle pointed to 2.23 but how do 
I know he meant the same thing that I do when I see the needle point to 
2.23."




>> and so is the theory that EVERYTHING is equally conscious,
even grains of sand, even atoms, even quarks and electrons.
The trouble is ANY consciousnesstheory will fit the observable
facts just fine, and that's why ALL consciousnesstheories are
utterly useless, except for the theory that solipsism is
untrue, that one has a use. 



/> But that's the way all theories are.  We provisionally believe
the ones that are consistent with the facts/


All theories of consciousness fit the facts,


With sufficiently bizarre ancillary assumptions.  You apparently agree 
with Bruno that a blow to the head doesn't eliminate consciousness thru 
a effect on your brain; it's merely a discontinuity in the stream of 
experiences called "John K Clark" and his brain is merely a construct of 
this stream.  I find the theory that consciousness is produced by brain 
activity to be pretty good.


the same can certainly *NOT* be said of theories of intelligence, 
that's why consciousness is easy but intelligence is hard.


> /And the theory of minds, that other people (and animals) are
conscious and have an internal narrative, is extremely useful and
in fact any human lineage*that did not hold* that theory has
already been eliminated by evolution. /


I agree, but if consciousness is not the way data feels when it is 
being processed (which I have a hunch is true even though I will never 
be able to prove it)


Do you think you could be conscious in the way you are without language?

then a non-conscious being could still calculate how its own actions 
are likely to affect the environment in the future, and part of that 
environment would be other non-conscious beings, who also calculate 
what affect their actions will have on the environment in the future. 
When 3 grains of sand interact in a Newtonian gravitational way, one 
grain of sand changes the position of the other two grains, and the 
other two grains change the position of the first grain, however that 
is not evidence that the 3 grains of sand are conscious. Of course it 
is not evidence that the 3 grains of sand are not conscious either.


/> Did you ever read Julian Jaynes "The Origin of Consciousness in
the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"?/


No I haven't read it, I have heard a little bit about itand my first 
impression (which I admit may be unfair because as I've said I have 
not read the entire book so maybe parts of it are good) is that it 
just proposes yet another theory of consciousness that is no better 
and no worse than every other rival theory of consciousness.


Jaynes takes perceptive consciousness as given and develops a theory of 
how narrative consciousness evolved.  Of course it doesn't prove that's 
what hap

Re: NYTimes.com: A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Oops! Correction

On 7/25/2021 4:06 PM, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote:



On 7/25/2021 3:39 PM, John Clark wrote:
In the final analysis the only way to test a theory is by making 
objective observations about the way things behave, but consciousness 
is a subjective phenomenon and that's what causes the problem. The 
theory that other humans besides me are conscious is perfectly 
consistent with all observable evidence, but so is the theory that I 
am the only conscious being in the universe,


But that's inconsistent with the theory that consciousness is 
instantiated by physical processes in the brain.  And that theory is 
supported by many observations and experiments on brains and the 
reports by subjects.


and so is the theory that EVERYTHING is equally conscious, even 
grains of sand, even atoms, even quarks and electrons. The trouble is 
ANY consciousness theory will fit the observable facts just fine, and 
that's why ALL consciousness theories are utterly useless, except for 
the theory that solipsism is untrue, that one has a use.


But that's the way all theories are.  We provisionally believe the 
ones that are consistent with the facts and are most useful.  And the 
theory of minds, that other people (and animals) are conscious and 
have an internal narrative, is extremely useful and in fact any human 
lineage/*that did not hold*/ that theory has already been eliminated 
by evolution.  Did you ever read Julian Jaynes "The Origin of 
Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"?


Brent
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Re: NYTimes.com: A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/25/2021 3:39 PM, John Clark wrote:
In the final analysis the only way to test a theory is by making 
objective observations about the way things behave, but consciousness 
is a subjective phenomenon and that's what causes the problem. The 
theory that other humans besides me are conscious is perfectly 
consistent with all observable evidence, but so is the theory that I 
am the only conscious being in the universe,


But that's inconsistent with the theory that consciousness is 
instantiated by physical processes in the brain.  And that theory is 
supported by many observations and experiments on brains and the reports 
by subjects.


and so is the theory that EVERYTHING is equally conscious, even grains 
of sand, even atoms, even quarks and electrons. The trouble is ANY 
consciousness theory will fit the observable facts just fine, and 
that's why ALL consciousness theories are utterly useless, except for 
the theory that solipsism is untrue, that one has a use.


But that's the way all theories are.  We provisionally believe the ones 
that are consistent with the facts and are most useful.  And the theory 
of minds, that other people (and animals) are conscious and have an 
internal narrative, is extremely useful and in fact any human lineage 
held that theory has already been eliminated by evolution.  Did you ever 
read Julian Jaynes "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the 
Bicameral Mind"?


Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/25/2021 2:38 PM, John Clark wrote:


/> the fact that you can say the consciousness of DeepMind might
be so different you have no way of knowing what it would be like
implies that there can be qualitatively different kinds of
consciousness. /


Yes. I only have experience with my own consciousness but I know for a 
fact that depending on the time of day my consciousness can be 
qualitatively different, and I've known that for a long time. Back 
when I was a student taking a calculus exam my consciousness had 
reached a high-level but later that same night when I was falling 
asleep it was at a much lower level and just a little later it fell 
all the way to zero, and then what seemed instantaneous but actually 
took 8 hours it started up again.


True.  But you left off the interesting conclusion, i.e. that different 
kinds of consciousness maybe connected to different kinds of 
intelligence.  Just as your consciousness can go from awake to asleep 
(which is actually different from unconscious), it can also be merely 
perceptive, or it can imagine things, or think of a narrative story, and 
these can be mixed with various emotional feelings.  Right?  If you 
agree or not, either way it implies that we can test theories of 
consciousness.


Brent

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Re: NYTimes.com: A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/25/2021 12:21 PM, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 2:43 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


/> It's certainly impressive...and useful.  But notice how very
different it is from what we call intelligence in humans./


At least in this case the biggest difference is the artificial version 
of Intelligence works one hell of a lot better than thenon-artificial 
human variety.


/> I wonder what kind of consciousness you would infer from
DeepMind's behavior?
/


I've always thought intelligence is hard but consciousness is easy, so 
to be consistent I'd have to say it must possess consciousness of some 
sort. Subjectively I have no way of knowing what it would feel like to 
be DeepMind, but then subjectively I have no way of knowing what it 
would feel like to be Brent Meeker either.


And you have no way of knowing what it will feel like to be John K Clark 
tomorrow, but you have a pretty good theory about it.  Similarly, you 
probably have a better theory about what it would feel like to be Brent 
Meeker than to be DeepMind.  So I make two points.


First, science isn't about /*knowing*/ stuff; it's just about having 
good theories.  Consciousness is imagined be an impossibly hard problem 
because it's posed as being able to predict conscious thoughts from 
monitoring a brain.  But that's like saying gravity is a hard problem 
because we can't predict the motion of all the stars in a galaxy (or 
even three bodies).


Second, the fact that you can say the consciousness of DeepMind might be 
so different you have no way of knowing what it would be like implies 
that there can be qualitatively different kinds of consciousness.  
Whether or how those kinds are correlated with different kinds of 
intelligence is an interesting question; which might lead to some good 
theories.


Brent



John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>

vqmz



DeepMind has given 3-D structure to 350,000 proteins, including
every one made by humans, promising a boon for medicine and drug
design.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/22/technology/deepmind-ai-proteins-folding.html?smid=em-share

<https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/22/technology/deepmind-ai-proteins-folding.html?smid=em-share>


John K Clark






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Re: NYTimes.com: A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

Good questions.

On 7/25/2021 10:35 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
This is indeed a historic moment for AI - protein folding is 
unbelievably complex and to now have a tool that can deal with that 
complexity is of inestimable value. But I do have these concerns:


  * It will be tempting to assume that DeepMind is correct on any
given structure. But we don't have any easy way to test it. Of
course, we can have a high degree of confidence that the predicted
shape is accurate, and the value in that is already huge. But
mistakes will be made based on this assumption.

Also, in a cell the folding of a protein is affected by things like 
salinity and even by helper molecules.



  * This tool can be weaponized to create new and even highly-targeted
poisons. It's not hard to imagine developing a poison that was
only toxic for people of a certain race and then delivering it via
virus.



Actually that is pretty hard to imagine.  Since race is largely a social 
construction, it doesn't really correlate well with cellular 
metabolism.  We already know of some fungal diseases that tend to attack 
dark skinned people, but not with the mortality and specificity you 
could use as a poison.


Brent


  * Who has access to DeepMind?
  * Are we comfortable with a corporation controlling something so
powerful and with potential global security issues? This question
will only get increasingly more relevant as new advances in AI are
made. Can the world ever hope to regulate something so
simultaneously powerful and cutting edge?

Terren


On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 8:56 AM John Clark > wrote:


In my opinion this is the most impressive thing that Artificial
Intelligence has done to date:

From The New York Times:

A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

DeepMind has given 3-D structure to 350,000 proteins, including
every one made by humans, promising a boon for medicine and drug
design.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/22/technology/deepmind-ai-proteins-folding.html?smid=em-share




John K Clark





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Re: NYTimes.com: A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

It's certainly impressive...and useful.  But notice how very different 
it is from what we call intelligence in humans.  It's more like the 
accomplishment of an idiot savant.   Since you often make the point that 
consciousness can only be inferred from intelligent behavior, I wonder 
what kind of consciousness you would infer from DeepMind's behavior?


Brent

On 7/25/2021 5:56 AM, John Clark wrote:
In my opinion this is the most impressive thing that Artificial 
Intelligence has done to date:


From The New York Times:

A.I. Predicts the Shapes of Molecules to Come

DeepMind has given 3-D structure to 350,000 proteins, including every 
one made by humans, promising a boon for medicine and drug design.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/22/technology/deepmind-ai-proteins-folding.html?smid=em-share 
 



John K Clark





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Re: Fox News and Newsmax regurgitates anti-vaccine rhetoric​ vomit ​

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

They are mostly killing stupid people.  But sadly they my also be 
killing some children, and they are providing an infected pool within 
which the virus can continue to mutate.  One of those mutations may 
circumvent the vaccinations we have.


Brent

On 7/19/2021 5:53 AM, John Clark wrote:

Are Fox and Newsmaxstupid or not stupid?
Are theykilling people or not killing people?
Are theyevil or not evil?
I think the answers are obvious:

Fox News hosts' anti-vaccine rhetoric 



John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 


qyz
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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/12/2021 2:44 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 10 Jul 2021, at 21:45, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:




On 7/10/2021 1:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 6 Jul 2021, at 16:45, Tomas Pales <mailto:litewav...@gmail.com>> wrote:



On Tuesday, July 6, 2021 at 10:28:11 AM UTC+2 Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 3 Jul 2021, at 14:13, Tomas Pales  wrote:
Can't there be a machine that computes gravitational
interaction with gravitational constant 6.674 x 10 to the -11
up until some time t and then continues the computation with
gravitational constant 5 x 10 to the -11, or just halts? That
would be an instability or cessation of gravitational law.


Yes, and that exists, but such world will have a very low
probability to be accessed by any observer, due to the fact
that, below our mechanist substitution level, all such theories
intervene.


How low is this probability? Is it maybe as low as the probability 
that my whole body quantum-tunnels through a wall?


Yes.





What does it mean that "below our mechanist substitution level, all 
such theories intervene”?



If your consciousness does not require some details: like the 
position of an electron of some atom in some neurotransmitter (say), 
then it will be associate as much with your brain and that election 
here, and with you brain and that electron there, and if you don’t 
measure the position of that electron, the two histories can 
interfere statistically.

What would it mean to measure the state of your own brain?


To encode the relevant information such that I survive the 
copy/reconstitution. The possibility of this is assumed in the YD part 
of the YD+CT.

YD = “Yes doctor”, and CT = Church’s Thesis (or Church-Turing’s thesis).


I  understand that is what it means for the state of your brain to be 
measured...but in what sense do *you *measure it.  Can you look at the 
instruments and say, "I see what I am thinking"?


Brent

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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/12/2021 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 10 Jul 2021, at 21:43, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:




On 7/10/2021 1:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 6 Jul 2021, at 12:55, John Clark <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote:



On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 10:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


>> It's easy to determine that the quantum computer is
intelligent butas for consciousness, how did you determine
that it was not conscious?For that matter how did you
determine that I am conscious? But let's get out of the
consciousness quagmire for a moment so I can ask you a
question, leaving behind the interpretation of the
experiment concentrating only on its results, if it was
actually performed as described do you think interference
bands would be on that photographic plate or would there be
no such bands? I would bet money the bands would be there
on that plate even though there's no longer any which way
information remaining. So, what would you put your money
on, bands or no bands?

> /I would guess the interference bands would be present exactly
because, ex hypothesi, the which-way information was quantum
erased.
/

So an intelligent and presumably consciousbeingonce existed that 
knew which slot all the electrons went through, but those 
interference bands still showed up anyway. Don't you find that a 
little strange? If Many Worlds is wrong and that being didn't exist 
in another world, then where did it exist?


I didn't wrote that.

Bruno


Sorry.  I should have removed your name at the top.  In my email it is 
clearly marked that JKC wrote it


Brent





It, or rather it's knowledge, existed in the past, before being erased.

Brent

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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/12/2021 2:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 10 Jul 2021, at 21:41, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
 wrote:



On 7/10/2021 1:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

So, in general we can conclude by generalizing this to any large number of 
particles that even with what we consider to be permanent records, you don't 
get rid of the theoretical possibility of interference between the sectors 
where those records are different.

I did not write this, and out of context, I don’t know if I agree or not with 
this.



We can if the universe is expanding faster than light beyond the Hubble radius.

How do you a physical being to singularise its consciousness?

The term “physical universe” is no more an ontological being if we assume 
Digital Mechanism. It is an appearance, a phenomenological reality, not an 
ontology.


The Hubble radius isn't a "physical universe", it's a 2-surface.

Brent



Bruno




Brent

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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/12/2021 2:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 10 Jul 2021, at 21:38, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:




On 7/10/2021 1:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 5 Jul 2021, at 21:01, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:



On 7/5/2021 7:41 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 9:44 AM Tomas Pales <mailto:litewav...@gmail.com>> wrote:


>> "Brain" is a noun, "consciousness" is not, that's why you
can't measure consciousness by the pound or by the cubic inch.


/> In English language it is used as a noun. Check out a
dictionary:/

*consciousness* noun
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/noun>


I know, that's what my fourth grade teacher told me too, but I 
long-ago realized that neither she nor the lexicographerswho wrote 
that big thick book are the fonts of all wisdom.


>> Intelligence is what a brain does not what a brain is,
and because Darwinian Evolution is almost certainly
correct, consciousness must be an inevitable byproduct of
intelligence, therefore "consciousness" is not a noun,
it's a word that describes what a noun (in this case the
brain) does, in other words consciousness is an adjective.


/> You mean a verb then, no? /


I think adjective fits the bill a littlebetter,I think Tomas 
Palesis the way atoms behave when they are arranged in a 
Tomaspalesian way.


> /consciousness is a spatiotemporal object./


I disagree, I think asking where my consciousness is located would 
be like asking where the number 11 or the color yellow  or "fast" 
is located.  If my brain is in Paris and I'm looking at a TV 
football game from Detroit and I'm listening to a friend in 
Australia on my telephone and I'm thinking about The Great Wall of 
China would it  make sense to say my consciousness is really 
located inside a box made of bone mounted on my shoulders when I 
have no conscious experience of being in a bone box on my 
shoulders? I don't think so.


Yet a sharp blow to that bone box would eliminate your conscious 
experience at least temporarily.


Only from the point of view of some conscious subject. From the 
point of view of the person associated to the brain in the box, that 
does not make sense, as it is associated to infinitely many truing 
universal relation.


That's incorrect.  I've been knocked unconscious and when I regained 
consciousness (it was on a few seconds) I realized the gap my 
conscious experience.


That does not entail that there were a gap. That entails only that at 
some moment you experience a feeling that there was a gap, from which 
you infer that there was a gap, but maybe you are just amnesic about 
your consciousness during the gap, or perhaps, you were really 
unconscious, but by definition, that is not part of the experience.


I didn't say anything about it being part of my experience.  But is was 
part of bystanders experience.  And the laws of physics proceeded in 
evolving without me.


Anyway, my point is that you survived the knocking. Not that you feel 
there has been a gap, which by the way, confirms your first person 
survival.


Do you deny that there was a physical world that evolved during that gap?













The body is only a map on infinitely many histories. That can be 
proved both with QM-without-collapse, or in any non trivial 
combinatory algebra (like a model of arithmetic).




So there's something there that is essential to your consciousness.



What is “essential” are the infinitely many computations.

Since the 1930s we know that all computations are realised in any 
model (in the logician sense) of arithmetic, or of combinatory logic 
(Kxy = x, Sxyz = xz(yz)).


But not in any brain...they are only finite.


The theories, words, axioms, machines, brains are all finite, but the 
semantic are not, the model of any Turing complete theory is always 
infinite, and provably realise all finite and infinite computation.


Only because you choose axioms and rule of inference that make it 
provable...which is much weaker than demonstrable.


String and Gravity loop theories are also finite, independently that 
their model are all infinite.








I know that this contradict 1492 years of materialist brainwashing, 
but “appearance of matter” are explained in arithmetic, and get 
contradictory when associated or singularised through any 
supplementary axioms, even the induction axioms used to define what 
an observer can be.


You assume some ontological commitment inconsistent with Mechanism here.


You assume an ontological commitment to Church-Turing infinite 
computations.


No. I assume Elementary Arithmetic, i.e.the natural numbers,


Which are infinite.

or the combinator, and their basic laws, or any Turing universal 
machinery (the phi_i).
All

Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/11/2021 7:57 PM, smitra wrote:

On 12-07-2021 00:35, Bruce Kellett wrote:

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 7:13 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
 wrote:


On 7/11/2021 9:53 AM, smitra wrote:

On 11-07-2021 02:41, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote:

On 7/10/2021 5:35 PM, smitra wrote:

On 11-07-2021 01:05, Bruce Kellett wrote:

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 1:18 AM smitra 

wrote:



On 10-07-2021 07:58, Bruce Kellett wrote:


Neither of your analyses actually explain the observed

behaviour.


It does so, otherwise the experiment would have proven that QM

is

invalid.


So, in your opinion, the quantum mechanical analysis given in

the

paper is wrong.


It is correct, it's just that your conclusion about the MWI

based on

that paper is incorrect. Escaping infrared photons and the
decoherence this causes are totally irrelevant. Whether or not

an

interference pattern can be detected is not relevant to the

question

of whether or not a superposition exists when we know that it

exist

and it has no decohered. It's just that you then can't reproduce

one

particular line of evidence for the validity of quantum

mechanics in

that particular experiment.

If I prepare the state of a particle in a  superposition and let



this interact in a certain way, then we know how this state will



evolve. If this evolution involves interactions with many

particles,

then the system will decohere. Then it may be true that we

cannot

distinguish the state of the system from being in a pure or

mixed

state in practice due to not being able to conduct an

interference

experiment involving a very large number of particles, but

quantum

mechanics still tells us that  the superposition exists and that

if

we were to conduct the right sort of interference experiment, we



would see an interference that would prove that the state is not

a

mixed state.


But does it exist if part of the information has crossed the

Hubble

boundary?  Then there is no experiment, even in principle, that

would

prove the state is not a mixed one.



The theories that tell you that there is such a thing like a

Hubble

boundary, also tell you that information does not vanish. We can

now

detect photons from galaxies that have always receded from us

faster

than light.


?? I think that's a contradiction.


It's worse than that -- it's gibberish.


It's a correct statement, see https://doi.org/10.1071/AS03040 page 101 
section 3.3:


"The most distant objects that we can see
now were outside the Hubble sphere when their comoving
coordinates intersected our past light cone. Thus, they
were receding superluminally when they emitted the photons
we see now. Since their worldlines have always been
beyond the Hubble sphere these objects were, are, and
always have been, receding from us faster than the speed
of light.3"


Interesting.  I shall read it carefully.  But it doesn't affect the 
point that in the Bucky Ball double slit experiment the photons can 
either hit the walls or escape to infinity and in either case the 
interference pattern will be washed out.  Even your citation says, /"No 
observer ever overtakes a light beam and all observers measure light 
locally to be travelling at c."


/Brent/
/


Saibal






So, that's information we're that has leaked away from those

galaxies

that does objectively exists. To prove that a state is a pure

state

one can just point to the way the state was prepared and invoke
quantum mechanics. It's not necessary to demonstrate interference

to

prove that quantum mechanics is still valid.


So, then you agree with Bruce that so long as the which-way
information
exists in those outgoing photons, the interference pattern will show
up?


I think you might have meant that as long as the which-way information
exists (has not been quantum erased), then no interference is visible.


Right.  That's what I meant to write.

In quantum erasure double-slit experiments the which-way photons must be 
focused to the same point regardless of which slit they 
indicate...that's the "erasure".


Brent


Bruce

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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/11/2021 9:53 AM, smitra wrote:

On 11-07-2021 02:41, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote:

On 7/10/2021 5:35 PM, smitra wrote:

On 11-07-2021 01:05, Bruce Kellett wrote:

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 1:18 AM smitra  wrote:


On 10-07-2021 07:58, Bruce Kellett wrote:


Neither of your analyses actually explain the observed behaviour.


It does so, otherwise the experiment would have proven that QM is
invalid.


So, in your opinion, the quantum mechanical analysis given in the
paper is wrong.


It is correct, it's just that your conclusion about the MWI based on 
that paper is incorrect. Escaping infrared photons and the 
decoherence this causes are totally irrelevant. Whether or not an 
interference pattern can be detected is not relevant to the question 
of whether or not a superposition exists when we know that it exist 
and it has no decohered. It's just that you then can't reproduce one 
particular line of evidence for the validity of quantum mechanics in 
that particular experiment.


If I prepare the state of a particle in a  superposition and let 
this interact in a certain way, then we know how this state will 
evolve. If this evolution involves interactions with many particles, 
then the system will decohere. Then it may be true that we cannot 
distinguish the state of the system from being in a pure or mixed 
state in practice due to not being able to conduct an interference 
experiment involving a very large number of particles, but quantum 
mechanics still tells us that  the superposition exists and that if 
we were to conduct the right sort of interference experiment, we 
would see an interference that would prove that the state is not a 
mixed state.


But does it exist if part of the information has crossed the Hubble
boundary?  Then there is no experiment, even in principle, that would
prove the state is not a mixed one.



The theories that tell you that there is such a thing like a Hubble 
boundary, also tell you that information does not vanish. We can now 
detect photons from galaxies that have always receded from us faster 
than light. 


?? I think that's a contradiction.

So, that's information we're that has leaked away from those galaxies 
that does objectively exists. To prove that a state is a pure state 
one can just point to the way the state was prepared and invoke 
quantum mechanics. It's not necessary to demonstrate interference to 
prove that quantum mechanics is still valid.


So, then you agree with Bruce that so long as the which-way information 
exists in those outgoing photons, the interference pattern will show up?


Brent



Saibal


Brent





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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/11/2021 5:08 AM, John Clark wrote:
Brent Meeker' via Everything List <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


> /As I recall even Shor's algorithm has a probabilistic step so
that the answer is only correct with high probability, not
certainty. /


So your argument is that a Quantum Computer can't be intelligent 
because it is capable of committing error.


That's not only not my argument it's not my opinion either.  From where 
to you pull these assumptions?



Well,.. a human brain is most certainly capable of committing error, 
in fact it's very very good at doing exactly that, and yet it seems to 
be capable of intelligent behavior, at least some of the time.


/>  I don't think a "being" can have knowledge that can be quantum
erased.  Such a "being" would have to be isolated from the
environment /


A quantum computer, or a computer of any sort for that matter, that is 
totally isolated from the environment would be absolutely useless. 
Both a quantum computer and a human brain must be isolated to some 
degree, that's why we have a bone skull; admittedly for a Quantum 
Computer the isolation must be more sophisticated and extensive so 
that the only changes made from the outside come from deliberate 
changes carefully made by keyboards and other precision input devices.


/> and have a relatively small number of degrees of freedom. /

That is nonsense, the entire advantage of Quantum Computers is that 
they have vastly more degrees of freedom than a conventional computer. 
To describe the state of a n bit conventional processor you'd need n 
real numbers; but to describe the state of a n qubit Quantum Computer 
you'd need 2^n complex numbers, and thanks to the Born rule you need 2 
complex numbers to define a unique real number so that means a n qubit 
Quantum Computer has 2*(2^n) -2 real degrees of freedom. The -2 is 
there because you have to remove 2 to normalized phase and amplitude.


You seemed to have missed the conditional "...that can be quantum erased".

Brent



/> you're never going to find a being that behaves intelligently
based on information that can be quantum erased./


If that is true it would mean there's something in the fundamental 
laws of physics that would preventthe construction of large scale 
Quantum Computers, as we already know it's possible to make small 
Quantum Computers because we've already done it. Quantum Computer 
expert Scott Aaronsonhas said that if somebody could demonstrate that 
that it's true they can't be made then for him personally it would be 
even more exciting then if somebody actually made a large scale 
Quantum Computer because he is a theoretician, and as the fundamental 
laws of physics are currently understood a large scale quantum 
computer is possible, so if it's proved it's not possible after all 
then that could only mean new laws of fundamental physics have been 
discovered. To insist they can't be made you must invoke new 
hypothetical physics.


John K Clark    See what's on my new list at Extropolis 
<https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>

qqnn

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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/11/2021 4:03 AM, Tomas Pales wrote:


On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 11:34:28 PM UTC+2 Brent wrote:


I think this kind of talk puts far too much on consciousness. 
Conscious thoughts seem to pop into my head with no antecedents,
yet they relate to past and distant things in my experience.  The
Poincare' effect shows that even the most abstract thought is
largely unconscious.


What is Poincare effect?


https://khuntersscience.blogspot.com/2012/09/an-essay-on-mathematical-creation-by.html



Consciousness seems to be the necessary basis of personal identity: "I 
am conscious therefore I am". Of course it depends on unconscious 
parts of the brain, the rest of the body and the environment; where to 
draw the boundary of personal identity is somewhat blurry.


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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/10/2021 5:35 PM, smitra wrote:

On 11-07-2021 01:05, Bruce Kellett wrote:

On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 1:18 AM smitra  wrote:


On 10-07-2021 07:58, Bruce Kellett wrote:


Neither of your analyses actually explain the observed behaviour.


It does so, otherwise the experiment would have proven that QM is
invalid.


So, in your opinion, the quantum mechanical analysis given in the
paper is wrong.


It is correct, it's just that your conclusion about the MWI based on 
that paper is incorrect. Escaping infrared photons and the decoherence 
this causes are totally irrelevant. Whether or not an interference 
pattern can be detected is not relevant to the question of whether or 
not a superposition exists when we know that it exist and it has no 
decohered. It's just that you then can't reproduce one particular line 
of evidence for the validity of quantum mechanics in that particular 
experiment.


If I prepare the state of a particle in a  superposition and let this 
interact in a certain way, then we know how this state will evolve. If 
this evolution involves interactions with many particles, then the 
system will decohere. Then it may be true that we cannot distinguish 
the state of the system from being in a pure or mixed state in 
practice due to not being able to conduct an interference experiment 
involving a very large number of particles, but quantum mechanics 
still tells us that  the superposition exists and that if we were to 
conduct the right sort of interference experiment, we would see an 
interference that would prove that the state is not a mixed state.


But does it exist if part of the information has crossed the Hubble 
boundary?  Then there is no experiment, even in principle, that would 
prove the state is not a mixed one.


Brent



Then given that we don't have any experimental evidence to doubt the 
validity of quantum mechanics, saying that the superposition does not 
really exists in such a a case, is just silly.


Saibal


Bruce

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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/10/2021 12:20 PM, Tomas Pales wrote:


On Saturday, July 10, 2021 at 2:49:07 PM UTC+2 johnk...@gmail.com wrote:

On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 4:19 PM Tomas Pales  wrote:

/>You are conscious of certain parts of your brain/


I've never actually seen it


Your eyes receive visual signals from outside your head, not from the 
inside, so you don't see your own brain.


soif I hadn't read about human anatomy in books I wouldn't even
know that I had a brain. How can I be conscious of something that
I don't even know exists?


Neuroscience says that we are not directly conscious of the external 
world but we are directly conscious of its neural representations in 
our brain. I would say that's because we/are/ those representations.


I think this kind of talk puts far too much on consciousness. Conscious 
thoughts seem to pop into my head with no antecedents, yet they relate 
to past and distant things in my experience.  The Poincare' effect shows 
that even the most abstract thought is largely unconscious.


Brent

So you are conscious of parts of your brain but not of those 
properties of the brain that look like gray matter when they are 
looked at through the eyes. Instead, the properties of the brain you 
are conscious of look like a red tomato, taste like chocolate or sound 
like music.


You may wonder how can a piece of gray matter look like a red tomato? 
I think it's because only those properties of the brain matter that 
are perceptible by the eyes look gray. The brain matter has many other 
properties that cannot be seen but some of them may feel like when you 
are looking at a red tomato.


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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/10/2021 2:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 6 Jul 2021, at 22:07, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:



On 7/6/2021 10:34 AM, Jason Resch wrote:



On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 12:27 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


And you're never going to find a being that behaves
intelligently based on information that can be quantum erased.

You need only a quantum computer with enough qubits.


Can you prove that?  How does this quantum intelligence ever arrive 
at a definite decision?





With a quantum brain, you can hack all credit cards, by running shor 
algorithm in your head for example.


You argument seems to negate the possibility of quantum speeding. You 
would be right if P = NP, or something…


No.  As I recall even Shor's algorithm has a probabilistic step so that 
the answer is only correct with high probability, not certainty.  
Quantum speedup is possible, just not quantum definiteness.  One you or 
your QC decides to act that act cannot be a superposition of actions.  
And the decoherence is not just FAPP, it is  inherent in the loss of 
information across the Hubble boundary.


Brent



Bruno



Brent



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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/10/2021 1:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 6 Jul 2021, at 16:45, Tomas Pales > wrote:



On Tuesday, July 6, 2021 at 10:28:11 AM UTC+2 Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 3 Jul 2021, at 14:13, Tomas Pales  wrote:
Can't there be a machine that computes gravitational interaction
with gravitational constant 6.674 x 10 to the -11 up until some
time t and then continues the computation with gravitational
constant 5 x 10 to the -11, or just halts? That would be an
instability or cessation of gravitational law.


Yes, and that exists, but such world will have a very low
probability to be accessed by any observer, due to the fact that,
below our mechanist substitution level, all such theories intervene.


How low is this probability? Is it maybe as low as the probability 
that my whole body quantum-tunnels through a wall?


Yes.





What does it mean that "below our mechanist substitution level, all 
such theories intervene”?



If your consciousness does not require some details: like the position 
of an electron of some atom in some neurotransmitter (say), then it 
will be associate as much with your brain and that election here, and 
with you brain and that electron there, and if you don’t measure the 
position of that electron, the two histories can interfere statistically.

What would it mean to measure the state of your own brain?

Brent



An electronic orbital is such a map: it tells you where you can find 
the electron in your most probable computational histories.


Bruno







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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/10/2021 1:28 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 6 Jul 2021, at 12:55, John Clark <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote:



On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 10:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
<mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


>> It's easy to determine that the quantum computer is
intelligent butas for consciousness, how did you determine
that it was not conscious?For that matter how did you
determine that I am conscious? But let's get out of the
consciousness quagmire for a moment so I can ask you a
question, leaving behind the interpretation of the experiment
concentrating only on its results, if it was actually
performed as described do you think interference bands would
be on that photographic plate or would there be no such
bands? I would bet money the bands would be there on that
plate even though there's no longer any which way information
remaining. So, what would you put your money on, bands or no
bands?

> /I would guess the interference bands would be present exactly
because, ex hypothesi, the which-way information was quantum erased.
/

So an intelligent and presumably consciousbeingonce existed that knew 
which slot all the electrons went through, but those interference 
bands still showed up anyway. Don't you find that a little strange? 
If Many Worlds is wrong and that being didn't exist in another world, 
then where did it exist?

It, or rather it's knowledge, existed in the past, before being erased.

Brent

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Re: Why are laws of physics stable?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 7/10/2021 1:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

So, in general we can conclude by generalizing this to any large number of 
particles that even with what we consider to be permanent records, you don't 
get rid of the theoretical possibility of interference between the sectors 
where those records are different.


We can if the universe is expanding faster than light beyond the Hubble 
radius.


Brent

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