date:20060610


> I heard that Dr. Veronica Butler once did a study in which she
tried to
> correlate health and other statistics with the orientation of
regular,
> non-SV houses in FF. IOW, to see if people in north-facing homes
were in
> worse shape than those in east-facing homes. I don¹t think it was
ever
> published.
>


Thanks  Bob,

I think this is an area that can be tested.  Specific claims deserve
specific proof.

Curtis


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
>  wrote:
> >
> > on 6/7/06 10:20 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com  40yahoogroups.com>
> > > , "curtisdeltablues"
> > >  wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > This post got me wondering: Are there any Vastu studies?  
> Ayur Veda,
> > >> > Yagya or Joitish studies?  Are these aspects marketed 
> separately or
> > >> > are they mentioned on the 3rd day of checking?
> > >> > 
> > >> > Are these programs marketed solely on the premise of 
> authority, i.e.
> > >> > Vedic tradition, or is there any attempt to give it the same
> > >> > scientific legitimacy claimed by the TM technique?
> > > 
> 
> 
> > I heard that Dr. Veronica Butler once did a study in which she 
> tried to
> > correlate health and other statistics with the orientation of 
> regular,
> > non-SV houses in FF. IOW, to see if people in north-facing homes 
> were in
> > worse shape than those in east-facing homes. I don¹t think it was 
> ever
> > published.
> >
> 
> 
> **
> 
> "Dr. Veronica Butler's presented her peer-reviewed research on the 
> effects of orientation upon quality of life measurements. Her work 
> is some of the groundbreaking research that is thus far validating 
> the ancient recommendations in the system of Maharishi Vedic 
> architecture. We will highlight her findings in the next issue of 
> our newsletter." http://vedicarchitecture.org/ezine/2004_11.html
> 
> 
> http://snipurl.com/rmeo
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: NYC TM News

2006-06-10 Thread bob_brigante

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 6/7/06 10:20 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
> > , "curtisdeltablues"
> >  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > This post got me wondering: Are there any Vastu studies?  
Ayur Veda,
> >> > Yagya or Joitish studies?  Are these aspects marketed 
separately or
> >> > are they mentioned on the 3rd day of checking?
> >> > 
> >> > Are these programs marketed solely on the premise of 
authority, i.e.
> >> > Vedic tradition, or is there any attempt to give it the same
> >> > scientific legitimacy claimed by the TM technique?
> > 

> I heard that Dr. Veronica Butler once did a study in which she 
tried to
> correlate health and other statistics with the orientation of 
regular,
> non-SV houses in FF. IOW, to see if people in north-facing homes 
were in
> worse shape than those in east-facing homes. I don¹t think it was 
ever
> published.
>

**

"Dr. Veronica Butler's presented her peer-reviewed research on the 
effects of orientation upon quality of life measurements. Her work 
is some of the groundbreaking research that is thus far validating 
the ancient recommendations in the system of Maharishi Vedic 
architecture. We will highlight her findings in the next issue of 
our newsletter." http://vedicarchitecture.org/ezine/2004_11.html

http://snipurl.com/rmeo

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 6/6/06 7:26 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > But now we do have some insight into the technical aspects I was referring 
> > to.
> > Since we now have the input from Rick that M. could not retain his 
> > bindu--aka
> > his retas (semen)--he was clearly (by definition of the practice of
> > urdhva-retas) not performing that practice.
> > 
> I was not the source of that information. Ned Wynn was, from his discussions
> with Jennifer and possibly Judith.
>

Obviously a well-documented bit of testimony...

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jun 10, 2006, at 11:20 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> >
> >>
> >> In more recent comment, Ken is back-pedaling on his opinion of TM
> >> research.
> >>
> >
> > Probably because it is so at odds with the research coming out on  
> > Buddhist meditation.
> 
> No, I don't think that's it. It seems to have more to do with  
> perceived credibility, i.e 'how seriously you take the research of  
> someone who's selling you something'. It seems he was a little behind  
> on the negative aspect of TM research simply because he was so happy  
> to hear what they had to say (and he didn't realize it was really  
> *what they were selling*). He did not take into account the inherent  
> bias.
> 

Of course not. Chuckle. Unlike the highly-touted study that recently came out 
on Buddhist 
meditation? Guffaw.

> > I'm of the opinion that TC ala TM and whatever state identified as  
> > [Buddhist term goes
> > here] that is brought about by whatever most Buddhists are  
> > practicing are NOT the same
> > physiological state, even if the superficial description sounds the  
> > same.
> 
> Well, let's be clear, all that "Buddhism" is, is an enlightenment  
> school (yes, there are some who distort that into a *religion*).  
> There are many methods available in this enlightenment school. Since  
> TM is essentially manasika-japa (mental mantric repetition) of the  
> ishta-devata (personal deity) practice--if you want to see something  
> similar, you should compare that to ishata-devata (or "yidam"  
> practice as they call it in Tibetan) practice. It's considered a  
> useful side-practice in these traditions. Interestingly, the practice  
> KW uses in his anecdotal "here's how to change your brain waves by  
> doing different types of sama-dhi" videotape is--you guessed it-- 
> Yidam practice.


Uh-hu. And we can tell this with a 2-channel EEG as he used?

> 
> But really there are numerous practices which should produce this  
> dualistic "witness" eeg artifact.
> 
> I was able to produce the same effect on a 24 channel eeg, just by  
> doing my ishta practice.


And you had access to this 24-channel EEG machine where?

> 
> >
> >
> > Drealization due to traumatic stress in early childhood seems to  
> > involve an immature
> > emotional side of the brain, combined with a normal intellectual  
> > side. The Buddhist state
> > appears to involve a normal emotional side combined with an  
> > overdeveloped intellectual
> > side. Both appear to involve intellectual witnessing of What Goes On.
> 
> Well, there are no easy answers. My observation would be that  
> different styles of Buddhist meditation produce different styles of  
> brain output. That's all. You might want to consider that we've been  
> conditioned (through our exposure to TM literature and PR) to believe  
> that certain physiological correlates are "good" when they're really  
> merely representational of the method of meditation being used!

That might be.


> 
> > TC due to TM, on the other hand, involves holistic functioning of  
> > the various parts of the
> > brain on both sides, as though thoughts were fluctuations of a  
> > background state of
> > attention-switching.
> 
> Since TM-style ishta practice is based on "peaceful ishtas" (who are  
> generally understood in meditative traditions to induce  
> transcendence), it would be interesting to see research done also on  
> other types of ishata-devatas.

Heh.

> 
> Personally, for me, I'll use an ishta that is appropriate for my own  
> state of mind or my own situtation.
>

Confusion?






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[FairfieldLife] 'Be-headings?- The French Were Better...'

2006-06-10 Thread Robert Gimbel




Let's face it, be-headings have been going on a long time;  And were especially popular in France, around the turn of the 1800's...  This barbarism is nothing new, rather more medieval in nature.  These people have lost their soul's who murder fellow humans,  In this manner...  There's no way around their karma, as hatred breeds hatred.  And this is what the 'evil one' strives to do, in the world.  To sicken the human race, and turn people from God.  It is sickening to see 'The Prophet Mohammad', portrayed;  As a blood thirsty, cold blooded killer, by people possessed-  With pure evil..     R. Gimbel  Madison, WI. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





on 6/10/06 10:15 PM, Rick Archer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

on 6/5/06 2:46 PM, new_morning_blank_slate at [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:

> I was making a joke via an indisputable tain of logic:  Everything is
> in Brahman, thus tantra is in Brahman. And since Brahman is at the
> core of part of Shankaracharian and Advaita Vedanta traditions,
> therefore tantra must be part Shankaracharian tradition Advaita
> Vedanta traditions. :)

And my that logic so must methamphetamine manufacture.

Typo. Meant “by that logic”

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: NYC TM News

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: NYC TM News

on 6/7/06 10:20 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com  , "curtisdeltablues" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This post got me wondering: Are there any Vastu studies?  Ayur Veda,
> Yagya or Joitish studies?  Are these aspects marketed separately or
> are they mentioned on the 3rd day of checking?
> 
> Are these programs marketed solely on the premise of authority, i.e.
> Vedic tradition, or is there any attempt to give it the same
> scientific legitimacy claimed by the TM technique?

I heard that Dr. Veronica Butler once did a study in which she tried to correlate health and other statistics with the orientation of regular, non-SV houses in FF. IOW, to see if people in north-facing homes were in worse shape than those in east-facing homes. I don’t think it was ever published.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





on 6/6/06 7:26 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

But now we do have some insight into the technical aspects I was referring to. Since we now have the input from Rick that M. could not retain his bindu--aka his retas (semen)--he was clearly (by definition of the practice of urdhva-retas) not performing that practice.

I was not the source of that information. Ned Wynn was, from his discussions with Jennifer and possibly Judith.

__._,_.___





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

On Jun 10, 2006, at 11:20 PM, sparaig wrote: In more recent comment, Ken is back-pedaling on his opinion of TM research. Probably because it is so at odds with the research coming out on Buddhist meditation.No, I don't think that's it. It seems to have more to do with perceived credibility, i.e 'how seriously you take the research of someone who's selling you something'. It seems he was a little behind on the negative aspect of TM research simply because he was so happy to hear what they had to say (and he didn't realize it was really *what they were selling*). He did not take into account the inherent bias. I'm of the opinion that TC ala TM and whatever state identified as [Buddhist term goes here] that is brought about by whatever most Buddhists are practicing are NOT the same physiological state, even if the superficial description sounds the same.Well, let's be clear, all that "Buddhism" is, is an enlightenment school (yes, there are some who distort that into a *religion*). There are many methods available in this enlightenment school. Since TM is essentially manasika-japa (mental mantric repetition) of the ishta-devata (personal deity) practice--if you want to see something similar, you should compare that to ishata-devata (or "yidam" practice as they call it in Tibetan) practice. It's considered a useful side-practice in these traditions. Interestingly, the practice KW uses in his anecdotal "here's how to change your brain waves by doing different types of sama-dhi" videotape is--you guessed it--Yidam practice.But really there are numerous practices which should produce this dualistic "witness" eeg artifact.I was able to produce the same effect on a 24 channel eeg, just by doing my ishta practice. Drealization due to traumatic stress in early childhood seems to involve an immature emotional side of the brain, combined with a normal intellectual side. The Buddhist state appears to involve a normal emotional side combined with an overdeveloped intellectual side. Both appear to involve intellectual witnessing of What Goes On.Well, there are no easy answers. My observation would be that different styles of Buddhist meditation produce different styles of brain output. That's all. You might want to consider that we've been conditioned (through our exposure to TM literature and PR) to believe that certain physiological correlates are "good" when they're really merely representational of the method of meditation being used! TC due to TM, on the other hand, involves holistic functioning of the various parts of the brain on both sides, as though thoughts were fluctuations of a background state of attention-switching. Since TM-style ishta practice is based on "peaceful ishtas" (who are generally understood in meditative traditions to induce transcendence), it would be interesting to see research done also on other types of ishata-devatas.Personally, for me, I'll use an ishta that is appropriate for my own state of mind or my own situtation.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

on 6/5/06 2:46 PM, new_morning_blank_slate at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

> I was making a joke via an indisputable tain of logic:  Everything is
> in Brahman, thus tantra is in Brahman. And since Brahman is at the
> core of part of Shankaracharian and Advaita Vedanta traditions,
> therefore tantra must be part Shankaracharian tradition Advaita
> Vedanta traditions. :)

And my that logic so must methamphetamine manufacture.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

on 6/5/06 3:43 PM, new_morning_blank_slate at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

>> I think he did get insights from listening to pundits, but it ended
>> up coming out as "the Great rishi hath spoken this revealed
>> material." 
> 
> You personally witnessed this? I never did. Rick, did you?
> 
In my experience, whether he was meeting with pundits or scientists, he
didn't pretend to know everything they knew. He interacted with them so as
to draw out their knowledge, and then attempted to place the foundation of
consciousness under it.

> If Jennifer (the only one rick has somewhat ready access to, AFAIK,
> can state without qualification, that in her experience there were i)
> absolutely no outer indications of tantra, ii) she is qualified to
> know such, and iii) she was so in-tuned with M's mind and inner
> states/physiology that she KNOWS no tantric intent, or tantric type
> flows of energy was ever occurring, then great. We would have a pretty
> definitive answer from Jennifer's experience. Then onto Linda and all
> and we may have pretty well indicated the hypotheses (#1 and #2) are
> false. Until then, well, they not been indicated as false.

We only had a couple of conversations and didn't discuss these points.
Basically, the whole experience left her with a pretty negative impression.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jun 10, 2006, at 10:30 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
[...]
> > Wilber seems to like Skip's work, BTW.
> 
> Actually him and Skip were in intimate communication up to his  
> untimely death.
> 
> His work "The Eye of Spirit : An Integral Vision for a World Gone  
> Slightly Mad" (Wilber talks of different "eyes": the eye of flesh,  
> the eye of contemplation (our meditational "eye") and the eye of  
> spirit, the "eye" of pervasive unity) has sections which talk of  
> Skip's work. Interestingly KW also shares my own opinion that GC in  
> Skip's/MMY's model of "higher states of consciousness" is not truly a  
> "state", but a "stage". In fact, in the source texts that the "7  
> states of consciosness" derive from, it is not seen as a sequence...

I don't think MMY ever presented it as a strict sequence, either. Its more like 
one can't 
have an episode of GC without some element of CC present. Likewise with UC 
depending 
on the presence of GC amd therefore on CC as well.

It's not as obvious with GC/UC but it seems impossible that one could have an 
experience 
of seeing the Self in perceptual reality without being aware of the Self 
internally as well.

Seeing the outside as the inside without seeing the inside seems, well, silly.

> 
> In more recent comment, Ken is back-pedaling on his opinion of TM  
> research.
>

Probably because it is so at odds with the research coming out on Buddhist 
meditation.

I'm of the opinion that TC ala TM and whatever state identified as [Buddhist 
term goes 
here] that is brought about by whatever most Buddhists are practicing are NOT 
the same 
physiological state, even if the superficial description sounds the same.

Drealization due to traumatic stress in early childhood seems to involve an 
immature 
emotional side of the brain, combined with a normal intellectual side. The 
Buddhist state 
appears to involve a normal emotional side combined with an overdeveloped 
intellectual 
side. Both appear to involve intellectual witnessing of What Goes On.

TC due to TM, on the other hand, involves holistic functioning of the various 
parts of the 
brain on both sides, as though thoughts were fluctuations of a background state 
of 
attention-switching.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

on 6/5/06 2:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> In short, I see no evidence to support your Maharishi-as-tantric
> adept enlightening his female students thru sex from the spontaneous
> transmission he received from SBS once-upon-a-time.
> 
> Certainly not an Occam's razor kinda idea.
> 
> Perhaps Rick could pass on this idea to some of the women he had
> "tantric sex" with and you could get their response?

I'm not in regular communication with any of them, and the one I spoke with
the most (Jennifer) just said that she really hasn't told her story yet.
Apparently she's in no hurry to do so. So regarding the kinds of details
you've been discussing here, I only have the Sexy Sadie material to go on
(i.e., Ned Wynn paraphrasing Jennifer as saying he was a "shitty lover,"
etc.)

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

On Jun 10, 2006, at 10:30 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Jun 10, 2006, at 3:47 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: [...] Different beings, in different dimensions of existence will also experience the same phenomenon differently. A traditional example given would be of a river which a human would see as something to drink, fish would see as their home and gods would see as nectar (etc., etc.). Skip Alexander likened it to Piaget's Congitive Stages. What seems logical in a more advanced stage seems completely magical and/or illogical in a prior stage and no amount of intellectual analysis and explanation by the more advanced-stage person will adequaely explain/convince the prior-stage person of the validity of the advanced stage reasoning -- the brain structures simply do not exist to allow this to happen. You simply CANNOT explain volume conservation to a kid who is too young to understand. Even if you demonstrate the principle in front of a kid using two different sized glasses, the kid will say something like "it's a trick!" --I did. Yes, precisely my point--although I see nowadays thinkers like Wilbur are in agreement to some positive things about Piaget while at the same time pointing out his limitations. Wilber seems to like Skip's work, BTW. Actually him and Skip were in intimate communication up to his untimely death.His work "The Eye of Spirit : An Integral Vision for a World Gone Slightly Mad" (Wilber talks of different "eyes": the eye of flesh, the eye of contemplation (our meditational "eye") and the eye of spirit, the "eye" of pervasive unity) has sections which talk of Skip's work. Interestingly KW also shares my own opinion that GC in Skip's/MMY's model of "higher states of consciousness" is not truly a "state", but a "stage". In fact, in the source texts that the "7 states of consciosness" derive from, it is not seen as a sequence... In more recent comment, Ken is back-pedaling on his opinion of TM research.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jun 10, 2006, at 3:47 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >>
[...]
> >> Different beings, in different dimensions of existence will also
> >> experience the same phenomenon differently. A traditional example
> >> given would be of a river which a human would see as something to
> >> drink, fish would see as their home and gods would see as nectar
> >> (etc., etc.).
> >>
> >
> > Skip Alexander likened it to Piaget's Congitive Stages. What seems  
> > logical in a more
> > advanced stage seems completely magical and/or illogical in a prior  
> > stage and no amount
> > of intellectual analysis and explanation by the more advanced-stage  
> > person will adequaely
> > explain/convince the prior-stage person of the validity of the  
> > advanced stage reasoning --
> > the brain structures simply do not exist to allow this to happen.
> >
> > You simply CANNOT explain volume conservation to a kid who is too  
> > young to
> > understand. Even if you demonstrate the principle in front of a kid  
> > using two different
> > sized glasses, the kid will say something like "it's a trick!" --I  
> > did.
> 
> Yes, precisely my point--although I see nowadays thinkers like Wilbur  
> are in agreement to some positive things about Piaget while at the  
> same time pointing out his limitations.
>

Wilber seems to like Skip's work, BTW.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies


On Jun 10, 2006, at 9:05 PM, Vaj wrote:

> I guess to state it plainly I'd have to restate one of Arthur C.  
> Clarke's three "laws" of prediction:
>
> "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from  
> magic."
>
> I would modify that slightly and say:
>
> "Any sufficiently advanced State of Consciousness is  
> indistinguishable from magic (or magical thinking, depending on  
> what is being "distinguished") to people of conventional states of  
> consciousness."

and I should add a precautionary cult-think corollary:

"but "drink the kool-aid" at your own peril."


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

On Jun 10, 2006, at 8:18 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Jun 10, 2006, at 3:26 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote: You have quite missed the point about magical thinking. And about subjective science. I'm merely replying to your brief remarks and less all this other stuff, which honestly simply does not interest me in the least. My points on magical thinking should stand on their own. It does. In mid air. You have using it in a quite different way as the discussion (without clarification --or apparently even understanding that.) Not a path for clear communications. But it seemed Lawson got it right on, so that (to me) is a good sign. But OTOH Lawson is a pretty deep thinker, so some might not get it.I tend to assume a fairly high caliber of discussion here and people with some above average understanding, above and beyond any particular paradigm. I'd bet most people got it. It might be less so for you because you were deeply interested in Kurtz's unique presentation from the *inside*, while someone like me who has little interest in him or his book, sees it from the *outside*.I guess to state it plainly I'd have to restate one of Arthur C. Clarke's three "laws" of prediction:"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."I would modify that slightly and say:"Any sufficiently advanced State of Consciousness is indistinguishable from magic (or magical thinking, depending on what is being "distinguished") to people of conventional states of consciousness."
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

On Jun 10, 2006, at 8:14 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Jun 10, 2006, at 3:57 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate wrote: The view in Jivan-mukta or other states does not change the chemistry and physics of a jet engine. The perspective and context aboutsuch knowledge may change, but Bernoulli's law is still Bernoulli's law. By definition, someone in Unity or Brahman Consciousness can *create* reality by perception or decision. Bernoulli's Law might not function around someone in such a state if they don't want it to. Yes, precisely the point I was getting at. Essentially the person in Unity becomes the center of their mandala, with the periphery of their sphere being manifestations of their own clarity--clarity in this case being the energy of their thoughts projecting as their environment. In other words they reshape their own environment at a fundamental level. In this case "laws" are relative. However even to "ordinary" individuals physical laws are impermanent. Lets bring a couple hundred, even ten, of these guys to the lab, hook them up, and test your hypotheses. Until then ... Ever read the results of Swami Rama when they did just that to him at the Menninger Foundation in KS?Most of what we're talking about here is not really conducive to scientific materialistic approaches, however I think many people, esp. those from a TM background, would be surpised at how detailed and how specific these full paths are. They even have their own inherent vocabularies for their inner topographies. They have detailed signs and stages that are clearly discernable. Yet most will never hear of these paths simply because they require secrecy. For the same reason you will never see research on them.As someone who has long had connections to extremely relevant spiritual research which saw great persecution--imprisonment, burning of books, etc.--I also question the readiness of the world for truly groundbreaking consciousness research.Really all we are doing now is looking at "consciousness hardware", the brain. Why are we doing this? We are doing this because modern psychiatry has taken a path of physicality and forsaken the "couch approach". It's all about chemical imbalances in the brain. So what are funding sources supporting? Research into consciousness hardware: the brain and it's chemistry. And if they find something they might just find the latest Zoloft or a new broadspectrum neurotransmitter drug that let's you have sex and lose weight and not have an anxiety disrder. And that's megabucks. It's all driven by drug companies and money.I always thought M. should've laid his cards on the table and strapped up.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jun 10, 2006, at 3:26 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
> 
> > You have quite missed the point about magical thinking.  And about
> > subjective science.
> 
> I'm merely replying to your brief remarks and less all this other  
> stuff, which honestly simply does not interest me in the least.
> 
> My points on magical thinking should stand on their own.

It does. In mid air. You have using it in a quite different way as the
discussion (without clarification --or apparently even understanding
that.) Not a path for clear communications.

...
> > Per Kurtz's use of the term, "Magical thinking, whether involved with
> > supernatural or paranormal beliefs, requires two preconditions. The
> > first is an actual ignorance of the natural causes of events in
> > question, and the second is the assumption that, in the absence of an
> > obvious natural cause, there must be an unknown and un-natural cause.
> 
> Unfortunately I have little interest in Kurtz or what he has to say.  
> Perhaps others do.

Then perhaps use terms other than his for your concept, or clarify
your new meaning, in a discussion explicitly using his term.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jun 10, 2006, at 3:57 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate  
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> The view in Jivan-mukta or other states does not change  the  
> >> chemistry
> >> and physics of a jet engine. The perspective and context aboutsuch
> >> knowledge may change, but Bernoulli's law is still Bernoulli's law.
> >>
> >
> > By definition, someone in Unity or Brahman Consciousness can  
> > *create* reality by perception
> > or decision. Bernoulli's Law might not function around someone in  
> > such a state if they don't
> > want it to.
> 
> Yes, precisely the point I was getting at. Essentially the person in  
> Unity becomes the center of their mandala, with the periphery of  
> their sphere being manifestations of their own clarity--clarity in  
> this case being the energy of their thoughts projecting as their  
> environment. In other words they reshape their own environment at a  
> fundamental level. In this case "laws" are relative. However even to  
> "ordinary" individuals physical laws are impermanent. 

Lets bring a couple hundred, even ten, of these guys to the lab, hook
them up, and test your hypotheses.  Until then ... 







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

On Jun 10, 2006, at 4:04 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't think of intuition as in the woo woo category. Premonition crosses that line for me. Or the claim that one's intuitions are always right. Intuition for me includes pattern recognition but it includes other unconscious process that are not too well understood, although commonly experienced. They give a non-verbal sense about something before the conscious mind catches up. With so much sensory information going in, and only a small fraction consciously processed, it doesn't surprise me that we can feel something before we can clearly articulate it. This is more than pattern recognition but a long way from woo woo!If woo woo has anything to do with Pure Consciousness, there's a definite connection between woo woo and intuition. PC entails creating a LOT of new, global connections in the brain. Intuion entails making use of novel connections in the brain, according to most neurological theories about it. And the Sanskrit word for intutition, Pratibha (prAtibha), does bear this out as it is synonymous with Transcendental Knowing (jnana, jJAna). Interestingly in Kashmir Shaivite literature they see Pratibha as synonymous with Paravac--transcendental, non-dual telepathic speech. This is interesting because it shows that everyone has the natural experience of the transcendent (vac).
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

2006-06-10 Thread Nelson

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "> 2) in the absence of an obvious natural cause, there must be an
> > unknown and un-natural cause
> > +++ In the absence of an obvious natural cause, there must be an
> unknown and natural cause otherwise what you see isn't happening.
> Like the rest of us, Mr. Kurtz can make observations that
> reflect his opinion and don't have great merit. N."
> 
> 
> If i understand your point correctly, the difference is between one
> person saying "I heard a sound last night", and another saying "It
> must be a ghost". 
> 
+++ It's more like I wondered if something had a cause that couldn't
be seen as scientific, would Mr Kurtz deny it happened.
Maybe it's a case of "believing is seeing" as Yoda said.  N.
   


 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Curtis,
> > >I agree with the general point that using words in
discussions with
> > > others that have a perjorative connonation -- to them -- is not
> > > usually helpful to the tone and fruitfulness of the discussion.
Often
> > > this occurs when there is not a common understanding of meaning.
> > > Reading your recent posts /cites from Kurtz helped me sharpen up my
> > > definition of "magical thinking" -- as I hope, perhaps naievly (that
> > > they read it), it has for others
> > > 
> > > And I don't think the term is necessarily pejoritive when
understood.
> > > Some ascribe to its merits and value, others do not. Its becomes a
> > > simple statement of fact about someones mode of inquiry for one
> who has 
> > > "an actual ignorance of the natural causes of events in
question,
> > > ... the assumption that, in the absence of an obvious natural cause,
> > > there must be an unknown and un-natural cause. ... These two factors
> > > in conjunction allow for the development of ad hoc explanations,
often
> > > relying upon an assumption that correlation demonstrates causation.
> > > ... This magical thinking is certainly irrational, in that it
> > > deliberately bases conclusions upon a clear lack of demonstrable
> > > evidence and without regard for logical coherence or
consistency. ...
> > > but why are people tempted to accept these stories? The
explanation is
> > > twofold - first our innate creativity, and second our penchant for
> > > seeking patterns. Together, they can lead people to false beliefs. "
> > > (Kurtz)
> > > 
> > > There are those on this list that openly proclaim, or demonstrate a
> > > strong belief in via, their writings that:
> > > 
> > > 1) correlation demonstrates causation
> > > 
> > > 2) in the absence of an obvious natural cause, there must be an
> > > unknown and un-natural cause
> > > +++ In the absence of an obvious natural cause, there must be an
> >   unknown and natural cause otherwise what you see isn't happening.
> >   Like the rest of us, Mr. Kurtz can make observations that
> > reflect his opinion and don't have great merit.  N.
> >
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: How do you spell roo

2006-06-10 Thread Michael Murphy

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gimari03 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> How're the Davis's now?  Hope your family well.  Mine great.

Hi, Gina

They are divorced for about 14 years now. I am in touch with both of them. I'd 
be happy to 
tell you more, but why don't you reply to my personal e-mail rather than in the 
group, 
since it is personal info. Your e-mail is hidden otherwise I would have done 
this earlier. 
Our amazing daughter recently graduated from college.

Michael
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

On Jun 10, 2006, at 3:47 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Jun 10, 2006, at 12:27 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote: "Magical thinking,", myth, art, poetry, drama, literature, dreams, are great things -- in the vast realms that science does not provide a more effective, predicable, researched and validated set of models, explanations and remedies / technologies. We have discussed this a bit before in the realm of logic. Logic has its realm. As does poetry. And I don't want a poet fixing the jet engine in the plane I am going to fly in, but I would rather hear the poet, rather have Neruda, not the mechanic, waxing on about love. One thing that Sanskrit literature and philosophy teaches us is that each drishti or way-of-seeing is unique, and therefore each way-of- seeing has it's own unique, internal logic. These are relative to one another, but different. This is part of conventionality or the relative. Waking state's linear logic may appear different to dream state's logic, and waking state's way-of-seeing may see dreaming state's logic as "magical thinking". It would also see the way-of- seeing of Unity Consciousness the same way (as magical thinking). All these things really tell you is looking *across* different ways-of- seeing only shows that different ways-of-seeing are relative to one another. Different beings, in different dimensions of existence will also experience the same phenomenon differently. A traditional example given would be of a river which a human would see as something to drink, fish would see as their home and gods would see as nectar (etc., etc.). Skip Alexander likened it to Piaget's Congitive Stages. What seems logical in a more advanced stage seems completely magical and/or illogical in a prior stage and no amount of intellectual analysis and explanation by the more advanced-stage person will adequaely explain/convince the prior-stage person of the validity of the advanced stage reasoning -- the brain structures simply do not exist to allow this to happen. You simply CANNOT explain volume conservation to a kid who is too young to understand. Even if you demonstrate the principle in front of a kid using two different sized glasses, the kid will say something like "it's a trick!" --I did. Yes, precisely my point--although I see nowadays thinkers like Wilbur are in agreement to some positive things about Piaget while at the same time pointing out his limitations.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

On Jun 10, 2006, at 3:26 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:You have quite missed the point about magical thinking. And about subjective science. I'm merely replying to your brief remarks and less all this other stuff, which honestly simply does not interest me in the least.My points on magical thinking should stand on their own. In this discussion no one is suggesting that they or others don't or can't have experiences that are not currently measured or modeled by objective science -- a such as your "conventional valid cognition of pure sublime vision, valid cognition of the *conceptual* ultimate reality or valid cognition of the *nonconceptual* ultimate reality" -- which while not well defined,They are actually well defined if we wanted to go there, but there's probably little interest here since the emphasis seems on academic philosophical opinions. in total carves out a sense of what your point is. Nor is it suggested that the experience and "description" of such is magical thinking. Per Kurtz's use of the term, "Magical thinking, whether involved with supernatural or paranormal beliefs, requires two preconditions. The first is an actual ignorance of the natural causes of events in question, and the second is the assumption that, in the absence of an obvious natural cause, there must be an unknown and un-natural cause. Unfortunately I have little interest in Kurtz or what he has to say. Perhaps others do.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

On Jun 10, 2006, at 3:57 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The view in Jivan-mukta or other states does not change the chemistry and physics of a jet engine. The perspective and context aboutsuch knowledge may change, but Bernoulli's law is still Bernoulli's law. By definition, someone in Unity or Brahman Consciousness can *create* reality by perception or decision. Bernoulli's Law might not function around someone in such a state if they don't want it to. Yes, precisely the point I was getting at. Essentially the person in Unity becomes the center of their mandala, with the periphery of their sphere being manifestations of their own clarity--clarity in this case being the energy of their thoughts projecting as their environment. In other words they reshape their own environment at a fundamental level. In this case "laws" are relative. However even to "ordinary" individuals physical laws are impermanent. Even the speed of light is probably merely a very persistent memory in nature, and therefore slowly changing (to echo Sheldrake's idea on memory in nature). God is the inverse of this: with God, unless God perceives it, it doesn't happen. Of course, God is the meta-observer of every meta-universe, so everything that happens is because God is watching, and everything DOES happen, some "where."
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Charlie Lutes' photos of Maharishi

2006-06-10 Thread bob_brigante

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, STEVE EMMING <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Dear Bob,
>Thanks for posting the pics of Maharishi.  Would there be any 
way to get a 4x6 or 5x7 copy of the actual picture?  Thanks,  Steve 
Emming
> 
> bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   http://www.maharishiphotos.com/mmy1.html
> 
> 

Vin Dacynzki is the site's owner -- you might check with him at the 
address he gives at the site: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
>  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You may have two good terms for the same thing!  I think of
> intuition
> > > > as an internal ability to detect patterns and create wholes out of
> > > > perceived parts.  
> > > 
> > > Then why not "recognize" it as "pattern recognition" -- on which there
> > > have been a lot of studies -- and not some term of nebulous and
> > > mystical connotation, "mystical"?
> > >
> > 
> > Because the "pattern" isn't logically recognizable, at least at the
> time of the intuition.
> 
> Nor did say or mean to imply it always is. I am referring to deep
> processes that are usually not conscious. I was playing with the word
> recognition. To be clearer, I could have said, "Then why not
> appreiciate that it may very well be some deep sub-conscious processes
> of "pattern recognition" -- on which there have been a lot of studies
> -- and not fall back on some some term of nebulous and mystical
> connotation to explain the phenomenon?"
>

As i pointed out, PC entails creating/using global connections in the brain. 
Most theories 
about intuition also assume this is what is going on with intuition. Insomuch 
as "Pure 
Consciousness" is a mystical/woo-woo state, intuition might be seen as one as 
well, or at 
least, PC could be seen as a meta-intuitive state.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
 wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > You may have two good terms for the same thing!  I think of
intuition
> > > as an internal ability to detect patterns and create wholes out of
> > > perceived parts.  
> > 
> > Then why not "recognize" it as "pattern recognition" -- on which there
> > have been a lot of studies -- and not some term of nebulous and
> > mystical connotation, "mystical"?
> >
> 
> Because the "pattern" isn't logically recognizable, at least at the
time of the intuition.

Nor did say or mean to imply it always is. I am referring to deep
processes that are usually not conscious. I was playing with the word
recognition. To be clearer, I could have said, "Then why not
appreiciate that it may very well be some deep sub-conscious processes
of "pattern recognition" -- on which there have been a lot of studies
-- and not fall back on some some term of nebulous and mystical
connotation to explain the phenomenon?" 










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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> I don't think of intuition as in the woo woo category.  Premonition
> crosses that line for me.  Or the claim that one's intuitions are
> always right.  Intuition for me includes pattern recognition but it
> includes other unconscious process that are not too well understood,
> although commonly experienced.  They give a non-verbal sense about
> something before the conscious mind catches up.  With so much sensory
> information going in, and only a small fraction consciously processed,
> it doesn't surprise me that we can feel something before we can
> clearly articulate it.  This is more than pattern recognition but a
> long way from woo woo!
> 
> 

If woo woo has anything to do with Pure Consciousness, there's a definite 
connection 
between woo woo and intuition. PC entails creating a LOT of new, global 
connections in the 
brain. Intuion entails making use of novel connections in the brain, according 
to most 
neurological theories about it.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
>  wrote:
> >
> > You may have two good terms for the same thing!  I think of intuition
> > as an internal ability to detect patterns and create wholes out of
> > perceived parts.  
> 
> Then why not "recognize" it as "pattern recognition" -- on which there
> have been a lot of studies -- and not some term of nebulous and
> mystical connotation, "mystical"?
>

Because the "pattern" isn't logically recognizable, at least at the time of the 
intuition.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
>  wrote:
> >
> > 
> >  "I think we may be saying something roughly similar,
> > except that I don't know whether you put much stock
> > in intuition."
> > 
> > I definitely do, although I may or may not have more limits on how far
> > that can go.  In the field of psychology and human behavior, intuition
> > seems to be a critical tool.  I don't believe that they intuit the
> > future exactly,  but I'll bet they can detect trends in behavior that
> > have a good chance of leading somewhere predictable.  If a person goes
> > to bed drunk with a gun under their pillow every night, and is in an
> > abusive relationship, my intuition tells me that someday, someone may
> > get shot. 
> 
> Or common sense. Which is subject to a lot of cognitive biases. But
> this is not an area devoid of scientific inquiry. Qualified
> psychologists / psychiatrists could tell you the same andmuch more.
> With higher statistical reliability.
> 

I think you've inflated the ability of qualified psychologists/psychiatrists, 
unless you're 
talking about extremely limited situations like dealing with psychotics and 
other people 
with predictably unpredictable behavior patterns.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:
>

> The view in Jivan-mukta or other states does not change  the chemistry
> and physics of a jet engine. The perspective and context aboutsuch
> knowledge may change, but Bernoulli's law is still Bernoulli's law. 
> 

By definition, someone in Unity or Brahman Consciousness can *create* reality 
by perception 
or decision. Bernoulli's Law might not function around someone in such a state 
if they don't 
want it to. 

God is the inverse of this: with God, unless God perceives it, it doesn't 
happen.

Of course, God is the meta-observer of every meta-universe, so everything that 
happens is 
because God is watching, and everything DOES happen, some "where."

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> You may have two good terms for the same thing!  I think of intuition
> as an internal ability to detect patterns and create wholes out of
> perceived parts.  It may not be verbal at first.  I accept the idea
> that you can intuit that my girlfriend will probably cheat on me after
> you talk with her.  I don't accept that you can intuit that we will be
> in a car crash next week.   I think the accuracy of intuition can be
> improved through practice.

I would say that intuition is the ability to create NEW wholes out of perceived 
parts without 
being able to "explain" how you arrived at your conclusion.

A mechanic who hears a knock and says "Oh, that's probably a problem with X" 
isn't intuiting  
anything. A mechanic who listen to an engine and says "I think we better check 
your oil 
pressure, though I'm not sure why" is showing some level of intuition.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jun 10, 2006, at 12:27 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
> 
> > "Magical thinking,", myth, art, poetry, drama, literature, dreams, are
> > great things -- in the vast realms that science does not provide a
> > more effective, predicable, researched and validated set of models,
> > explanations and remedies / technologies.
> >
> > We have discussed this a bit before in the realm of logic. Logic has
> > its realm. As does poetry. And I don't want a poet fixing the jet
> > engine in the plane I am going to fly in, but I would rather hear the
> > poet, rather have Neruda, not the mechanic, waxing on about love.
> 
> 
> One thing that Sanskrit literature and philosophy teaches us is that  
> each drishti or way-of-seeing is unique, and therefore each way-of- 
> seeing has it's own unique, internal logic. These are relative to one  
> another, but different. This is part of conventionality or the  
> relative. Waking state's linear logic may appear different to dream  
> state's logic, and waking state's way-of-seeing may see dreaming  
> state's logic as "magical thinking". It would also see the way-of- 
> seeing of Unity Consciousness the same way (as magical thinking). All  
> these things really tell you is looking *across* different ways-of- 
> seeing only shows that different ways-of-seeing are relative to one  
> another.
> 
> Different beings, in different dimensions of existence will also  
> experience the same phenomenon differently. A traditional example  
> given would be of a river which a human would see as something to  
> drink, fish would see as their home and gods would see as nectar  
> (etc., etc.).
>

Skip Alexander likened it to Piaget's Congitive Stages. What seems logical in a 
more 
advanced stage seems completely magical and/or illogical in a prior stage and 
no amount 
of intellectual analysis and explanation by the more advanced-stage person will 
adequaely 
explain/convince the prior-stage person of the validity of the advanced stage 
reasoning --
the brain structures simply do not exist to allow this to happen.

You simply CANNOT explain volume conservation to a kid who is too young to 
understand. Even if you demonstrate the principle in front of a kid using two 
different 
sized glasses, the kid will say something like "it's a trick!" --I did.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jun 10, 2006, at 11:34 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >>
> >> One thing that Sanskrit literature and philosophy teaches us is that
> >> each drishti or way-of-seeing is unique, and therefore each way-of-
> >> seeing has it's own unique, internal logic. These are relative to one
> >> another, but different. This is part of conventionality or the
> >> relative. Waking state's linear logic may appear different to dream
> >> state's logic, and waking state's way-of-seeing may see dreaming
> >> state's logic as "magical thinking". It would also see the way-of-
> >> seeing of Unity Consciousness the same way (as magical thinking). All
> >> these things really tell you is looking *across* different ways-of-
> >> seeing only shows that different ways-of-seeing are relative to one
> >> another.
> >>
> >> Different beings, in different dimensions of existence will also
> >> experience the same phenomenon differently. A traditional example
> >> given would be of a river which a human would see as something to
> >> drink, fish would see as their home and gods would see as nectar
> >> (etc., etc.).
> >
> > The view in Jivan-mukta or other states does not change  the chemistry
> > and physics of a jet engine. The perspective and context aboutsuch
> > knowledge may change, but Bernoulli's law is still Bernoulli's law.
> 
> These are part of conventional reality which are part of impure  
> (samsaric) perception. It should be considered 'conventional valid  
> cognition of limited impure perception'. In other words it the style  
> of perception that can be seen by ordinary people. It explains  
> reality based on concepts of cause and effect.
> 
> Ordinary people can perceive conventional logical constructs, like  
> physical laws, etc. They cannot perceive 'conventional valid  
> cognition of pure sublime vision, valid cognition of the *conceptual*  
> ultimate reality or valid cognition of the *nonconceptual* ultimate  
> reality. These pramanas (logical approaches) are beyond cause and  
> effect and do not necessarily adhere to the the style of cognition  
> used by ordinary beings who perceive limited impure perception.
> 
> Enlightened or sublime beings do not require objects of  
> conceptutalization to understand, explain or manipulate deceptive  
> reality (impure or samsraic vision).
> 
> Of course to ordinary persons the description of *nonconceptual*  
> ultimate reality seems like magical thinking and the performance of  
> action from the level of *nonconceptual* ultimate reality seems like  
> magic.

You have quite missed the point about magical thinking.  And about
subjective science. 

In this discussion no one is suggesting that they or others don't or
can't have experiences that are not currently measured or modeled by
objective science -- a such as your "conventional valid  cognition of
pure sublime vision, valid cognition of the *conceptual*  ultimate
reality or valid cognition of the *nonconceptual* ultimate  reality"
-- which while not well defined, in total carves out a sense of what
your point is. Nor is it suggested that the experience and
"description" of such is magical thinking.  

Per Kurtz's use of the term, "Magical thinking, whether involved with
supernatural or paranormal beliefs, requires two preconditions. The
first is an actual ignorance of the natural causes of events in
question, and the second is the assumption that, in the absence of an
obvious natural cause, there must be an unknown and un-natural cause.

These two factors in conjunction allow for the development of ad hoc
explanations, often relying upon an  assumption that correlation
demonstrates causation. For example, praying just before something
good happens leads one to the belief that the positive event was
caused by the prayer."

While the phenomenon of experiences beyond those currently measured or
modeled / predicted by science is clearly there, interpreteation of
such expoeriences are open to question. "actual ignorance of the
natural causes of events in question" Kurtz's phrase, may be in play
in some cases. In the absence of an obvious natural cause, some appar
to be led to explanations that soothe them, calm them, make them feel
good. Other explanations, which are less comforting appear to be
rejected or not even seiously considered. That does not mean that the
experiences are not valid, or that they are unworthy of inquiry, nor
that they are magical. 

The discussion on subjective science revolved around a system of
inquiry, validation and research that could assist in clarifying and
supporting communication of experiences that are not well addressed by
objective sciences. Although cognitive science, well within the
domains of objective science, is already doing a lot of this. 

There is no reason your "conventional valid  cognition of pure sublime
vision, valid cognition

Re: [FairfieldLife] Do you want earn 5,000 Dollars earning per weak???

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Do you want earn 5,000 Dollars earning per weak???





This person is toast.


on 6/10/06 12:51 PM, Robin Hassall at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 

Do you want earn 5,000 Dollars earning per weak??? 
  
From the online hyip, investment, and other money making programs.
  
Then be more cautious before you invest to some program.
  
 
  
But the important thing is that some times it’s risky for a new comer and becomes the ideal when the confident is built.
  
Taking both the negative and positive aspects of High Yield Investments into consideration, 
  
the conclusion is; If done right, High Yield Investments can be extremely lucrative.
  
 
  
HYIP, which stands for High Yield Investment Program is just what it sounds like, 
  
a program offering a high yield investment. 
  
Interest rates of up to 100% a month is not 
  
uncommon, but more likely to be risky.
  
Sincerely, 
  
A.J
  
 
  

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

On Jun 10, 2006, at 11:34 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: One thing that Sanskrit literature and philosophy teaches us is that each drishti or way-of-seeing is unique, and therefore each way-of- seeing has it's own unique, internal logic. These are relative to one another, but different. This is part of conventionality or the relative. Waking state's linear logic may appear different to dream state's logic, and waking state's way-of-seeing may see dreaming state's logic as "magical thinking". It would also see the way-of- seeing of Unity Consciousness the same way (as magical thinking). All these things really tell you is looking *across* different ways-of- seeing only shows that different ways-of-seeing are relative to one another. Different beings, in different dimensions of existence will also experience the same phenomenon differently. A traditional example given would be of a river which a human would see as something to drink, fish would see as their home and gods would see as nectar (etc., etc.). The view in Jivan-mukta or other states does not change the chemistry and physics of a jet engine. The perspective and context aboutsuch knowledge may change, but Bernoulli's law is still Bernoulli's law. These are part of conventional reality which are part of impure (samsaric) perception. It should be considered 'conventional valid cognition of limited impure perception'. In other words it the style of perception that can be seen by ordinary people. It explains reality based on concepts of cause and effect.Ordinary people can perceive conventional logical constructs, like physical laws, etc. They cannot perceive 'conventional valid cognition of pure sublime vision, valid cognition of the *conceptual* ultimate reality or valid cognition of the *nonconceptual* ultimate reality. These pramanas (logical approaches) are beyond cause and effect and do not necessarily adhere to the the style of cognition used by ordinary beings who perceive limited impure perception.Enlightened or sublime beings do not require objects of conceptutalization to understand, explain or manipulate deceptive reality (impure or samsraic vision). Of course to ordinary persons the description of *nonconceptual* ultimate reality seems like magical thinking and the performance of action from the level of *nonconceptual* ultimate reality seems like magic.But it's just different. (Except on Trans-Love Airlines -- which gets you THERE on time" as Donovan and Jefferson Airplane sang.) I thought they went out of business in the 60's ;-)
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

2006-06-10 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Actually, I should have said that the latter is more like a 
premonition 
> than intuition, and I'm not quite sure of the overlap.  As for the 
> former, if that's the case I intuit that you and your girlfriend 
need 
> to sit down and have a long talk. :)
> 
> Sal
> 
I heard that intuition is based on the refined use of the senses. 
Makes sense to me, intuitively. 

Like when I pick up the phone and sometimes know who it is on the 
other end before they speak...which begs other questions, like how 
can we hear that far away? or maybe see that far away? Which if 
accepted, brings about a new set of questions about the limits of 
our senses, and by extension, our bodies. Down the rabbit hole with 
us...

Contrasting premonitions with intuitions, premonitions feel as if 
they are sensed from the inside out, whereas intuitions come from 
the outside in. At least that is the way I experience them.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: How do you spell roo

2006-06-10 Thread gimari03

Hi Michael:

Yes, you've got me pegged.  Still a midwife, in the Bay Area.
Sorry I missed providing the evolution of  'ru evolution to 'roo in time for 
your publication.
How're the Davis's now?  Hope your family well.  Mine great.

am checking out your website.  will order the book.
tks!
Gina

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> I think I remember you. Were you a midwife? Did you work at Crest Jewel? Were 
> you 
> married to a member of the Bebo band? My wife and I were friends of Mark 
> Davis another 
> Bebo member. I think my wife Susie took a some kind of birthing class from 
> you. If you are 
> that Gina, nice to hear from you. If you aren't, nice to hear from you anyway.
> 
> Best, Michael
>

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

OK, I had never been interested in moving to FF most of the time I was in DC, it had just always seemed like kind of a dump. :)  Then I found myself on a residence course during the early spring of 91 and it was during a speech by Bevan, of all people, that the thought just hit me, "You're moving to FF."  Just like that...and within a few months it had all fallen into place, and I've been here and very happy ever since.  

Much earlier, in middle school, there was a clique of very popular girls, who got a lot of attention and had their pick of the boys (not that the pickings were all that great at that point. :) ) While I had been friends with one of them in grade school, by 7th grade it was obvious things had changed quite a bit.
But anyway,  a lot of other girls wanted to be part of that group, and logically, I should have too...but to me  they frequently had an air of desperation, were way too loud, and supposedly would put out in order to stay in the group. IOW, I had a bad feeling about what they were doing and what went on with them.  Almost to a person, in HS they ended up in some kind of serious trouble--drug problems, police records, etc--in a place where that was not the norm. I was very glad I had trusted my own feelings.

I doubt I can explain it any better than that, really.  To me that pretty much sums up what intuition is all about.

Sal

On Jun 10, 2006, at 10:55 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:

Hey Sal,

I'll have to think about what we mean by intuition.  For me, years of
noticing people's behaviors and patterns have sharpened my ability to
have better intuition about people's future behavior.  I think some
therapist have been noticing so many people in such detail that they
do develop a more highly refined ability.

But I may be missing your perspective on what intuitions are.  Can you
give an example so I can  understand how you use the term?  (hopefully
it will not include girlfriends cheating on me or shooting me!)



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
On Jun 10, 2006, at 10:28 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:

You may have two good terms for the same thing!  I think of intuition
as an internal ability to detect patterns and create wholes out of
perceived parts.

It's not really an ability, though--more like a characteristic.  It's 
not something that you can really develop, at least not in my 
experience. It's something that you begin to recognize has pretty much 
always been there.

It may not be verbal at first.  I accept the idea
that you can intuit that my girlfriend will probably cheat on me after
you talk with her.  I don't accept that you can intuit that we will be
in a car crash next week.

You *can* intuit that, but it may or may not be accurate.  Intuition 
usually is about things that are not quite so concrete and specific. 
And it doesn't always have to be about bad stuff either!

I think the accuracy of intuition can be
improved through practice.

Not really.  What can be improved is the trust you develop in your own 
experience and feelings, but  there is really no  way to practice that, 
IMO. It just sort of comes when you're ready for it.

Sal
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine 
wrote:
That's not intuition, that's common sense, Curtis. Intuition is that
annoying thing :) you often hear women say, "I just have a
feeling..."
about something or someone that seems completely illogical at the 
time,
but turns out to be fairly accurate at some point later.  That's
intuition.

Sal


On Jun 10, 2006, at 8:35 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:

If a person goes
to bed drunk with a gun under their pillow every night, and is in an
abusive relationship, my intuition tells me that someday,
someone may
get shot.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Charlie Lutes' photos of Maharishi

2006-06-10 Thread STEVE EMMING




Dear Bob,   Thanks for posting the pics of Maharishi.  Would there be any way to get a 4x6 or 5x7 copy of the actual picture?  Thanks,  Steve Emmingbob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  http://www.maharishiphotos.com/mmy1.html __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > No, I have not read that one. It looks good. 
> > > 
> > > I think cognitve biases and logical fallacies are the 
> > > cornorstones to "magical thinking". (I appreciate your 
> > > recent cites and posts on such.) And magical interpretations
> > > -- whether of experiences, "scriptures" or current events.
> > > 
> > > Magical thinking (MT) takes one to the opposite cornor of 
> > > What Is. MT may bring some feel-good comfort to the soul, 
> > > and be the fuel for dreamers, but ultimately its illusion 
> > > and delusion. 
> > 
> > Sorry, dude, I know you like to swing your intellectual
> > dick and all, and I guess that's fun if you get off on 
> > that sort of thing, but all of this is starting to sound 
> > a lot like "sour grapes" to me. 
> > 
> > That is, "I'm a little pissed off that others have had
> > experiences I haven't, experiences that seem to push the 
> > envelope of 'rational thinking' and defy description in
> > normal terms, so I'm going to declare anyone who can't
> > describe his experiences in neat little boxes the way I 
> > like things described a 'dreamer' and lost in 'illusion.'"
> > 
> > Uptight people have been doing this to mystics as long 
> > as there have been mystics. Mystics have been laughing 
> > at the uptight people for pretty much the same length
> > of time. :-)
> >
> +++  Bingo
>

The real mystics smile reassuringly at both and recount the tale of the blind 
men and the 
elephant.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
[...]
> > Why would he say this? A literalist interpretation of the Vedic
> > literature may or may not contradict modern views of the world, 
> > depending on the interpretation. Plenty of Fundamentalist 
> > Christians embrace evolutionary theory via the "Day-Age" 
> > interpretation of Genesis, for instance.
> 
> Yeah, but that's not "literalist," strictly speaking.

Of course it is. "Day" is undefined in human terms until the sun is created. 
Until then, it is 
metaphorical. At least the devout 7th Day Adventist I knew who believed in 
evolution (or 
didn't disbelieve at least) claimed this. 

> Not all fundies are literalists in the strict sense of
> the term, by any means.  But if they *are* literalists,
> they have to deny evolutionary theory.

Nope. See above. Other interpretations of the literal meaning of the words in 
the bible 
might lead to other reconciliations as well.

> 
> My impression of MMY is that he sees the scriptural
> myths as metaphors but takes the much more abstract
> *referents* of the metaphors literally.
> 

Yes and no. ;-)

> Did God say "Let there be light," etc., or did God
> say, "Let there be a Big Bang and we'll see what
> happens," "Let there be evolution and we'll see what
> it comes up with"?

How can you be sure that there is a difference? Are you now defining what God 
meant 
when he used the word "light?"

> 
> (The above sentence more germane to my response to
> Vaj in another post, but I've got to get out the
> door in two minutes and I don't have time to
> move it over!)
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: How do you spell roo

2006-06-10 Thread Michael Murphy

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, gimari03 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> "Roo later evolved when referring to the kangaroo hopping in the domes.
> 
> So, what book is coming out soon??
> 
> Gina

Thanks, Gina, I almost missed your post. Thought this thread had pretty much 
played out. 
I never knew about the association between Roo and hopping before. My book is 
actually 
out now. It is Murphy's Laws of the Inner Life. More info is available at 
www.dawnhawk.com . Much of it takes place in Fairfield. 

I think I remember you. Were you a midwife? Did you work at Crest Jewel? Were 
you 
married to a member of the Bebo band? My wife and I were friends of Mark Davis 
another 
Bebo member. I think my wife Susie took a some kind of birthing class from you. 
If you are 
that Gina, nice to hear from you. If you aren't, nice to hear from you anyway.

Best, Michael

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

I don't think of intuition as in the woo woo category.  Premonition
crosses that line for me.  Or the claim that one's intuitions are
always right.  Intuition for me includes pattern recognition but it
includes other unconscious process that are not too well understood,
although commonly experienced.  They give a non-verbal sense about
something before the conscious mind catches up.  With so much sensory
information going in, and only a small fraction consciously processed,
it doesn't surprise me that we can feel something before we can
clearly articulate it.  This is more than pattern recognition but a
long way from woo woo!

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
>  wrote:
> >
> > Hey Sal,
> > 
> > I'll have to think about what we mean by intuition.  For me, years of
> > noticing people's behaviors and patterns have sharpened my ability to
> > have better intuition about people's future behavior.
> 
> Pattern recognition. A fundamental ability of the brain. Much knowne
> about it. Much more to know. Why wrap it in mystical woo woo languange?
> 
> 
>   I think some
> > therapist have been noticing so many people in such detail that they
> > do develop a more highly refined ability.
> 
> A more highly refined ability of pattern recognition. As do
> practicioners in every field. An experienced doctor "gets", recognizes
> patterns interns don't because he  has seen many 1000's more cases.
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hey Sal,
> 
> I'll have to think about what we mean by intuition.  For me, years of
> noticing people's behaviors and patterns have sharpened my ability to
> have better intuition about people's future behavior.

Pattern recognition. A fundamental ability of the brain. Much knowne
about it. Much more to know. Why wrap it in mystical woo woo languange?

  I think some
> therapist have been noticing so many people in such detail that they
> do develop a more highly refined ability.

A more highly refined ability of pattern recognition. As do
practicioners in every field. An experienced doctor "gets", recognizes
patterns interns don't because he  has seen many 1000's more cases. 

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You may have two good terms for the same thing!  I think of intuition
> as an internal ability to detect patterns and create wholes out of
> perceived parts.  

Then why not "recognize" it as "pattern recognition" -- on which there
have been a lot of studies -- and not some term of nebulous and
mystical connotation, "mystical"?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

Comments in [brackets].

> That's not intuition, that's common sense, Curtis. Intuition is that 
> annoying thing :) you often hear women say, "I just have a feeling..." 
> about something or someone that seems completely illogical at the time, 
> but turns out [20% of the time ] 
to be fairly accurate at some point later. 
[And 80% of the time turns out to nothing.]
 That's 
> intuition. [:)]
> 
> Sal

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

2006-06-10 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > No, I have not read that one. It looks good. 
> > > 
> > > I think cognitve biases and logical fallacies are the 
> > > cornorstones to "magical thinking". (I appreciate your 
> > > recent cites and posts on such.) And magical interpretations
> > > -- whether of experiences, "scriptures" or current events.
> > > 
> > > Magical thinking (MT) takes one to the opposite cornor of 
> > > What Is. MT may bring some feel-good comfort to the soul, 
> > > and be the fuel for dreamers, but ultimately its illusion 
> > > and delusion. 
> > 
> > Sorry, dude, I know you like to swing your intellectual
> > dick and all, and I guess that's fun if you get off on 
> > that sort of thing, but all of this is starting to sound 
> > a lot like "sour grapes" to me. 
> > 
> > That is, "I'm a little pissed off that others have had
> > experiences I haven't, experiences that seem to push the 
> > envelope of 'rational thinking' and defy description in
> > normal terms, so I'm going to declare anyone who can't
> > describe his experiences in neat little boxes the way I 
> > like things described a 'dreamer' and lost in 'illusion.'"
> > 
> > Uptight people have been doing this to mystics as long 
> > as there have been mystics. Mystics have been laughing 
> > at the uptight people for pretty much the same length
> > of time. :-)
>
> +++  Bingo

"Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the 
other person to die."  -- Malachy McCourt







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
>  "I think we may be saying something roughly similar,
> except that I don't know whether you put much stock
> in intuition."
> 
> I definitely do, although I may or may not have more limits on how far
> that can go.  In the field of psychology and human behavior, intuition
> seems to be a critical tool.  I don't believe that they intuit the
> future exactly,  but I'll bet they can detect trends in behavior that
> have a good chance of leading somewhere predictable.  If a person goes
> to bed drunk with a gun under their pillow every night, and is in an
> abusive relationship, my intuition tells me that someday, someone may
> get shot. 

Or common sense. Which is subject to a lot of cognitive biases. But
this is not an area devoid of scientific inquiry. Qualified
psychologists / psychiatrists could tell you the same andmuch more.
With higher statistical reliability.

> There are many more subtle character trends I think highly
> empathetic people can detect no matter what their field.
> 
> > The thing with people like Kurtz, I suspect, is that
> > his predisposition to dismiss astrology (and other such
> > endeavors) has kept him from examining what *good*
> > astrology looks like.  In effect, at least partly, he's
> > dismissing a straw man.
> 
> That wouldn't surprise me.  I think it is up to astrology to present a
> better case or show an interest in good studies.  The arrogance of the
> position that "we already know it is true so we don't have to prove it
> to you" is a problem in many fields, some claiming to be scientific. 
> Paul may be placing the burden of proof on others to present claims in
> a way that is falsifiable. 

Why should Paul accept astrology if no strong and valid studies have
been presented? I think the rational view is to be skeptical of
unsubstantiated claims and hypotheses, but not to reject them outright
until valid studies have indicated such. From what I have viewed, in
the domain of jyotish, there are no good studies rejecting the null
hypotheses, not any that fail to. Its an area good science has not
touched. Frankly, I am open to it -- from "subjective experience" --
but would never try to convince a Kurtz that it has value. To me it
has value, outside its predicitive ability (or lack there of). Like a
cross-word or other puzzle, it exercises the mind in odd and different
ways. Opening up new synapes.

> If they are not willing to present it in
> this manor then their sincerity is automatically questioned by many
> skeptics.

Of course. If one  wants scientific validation then let science
validate it in its proven ways. (The mistake of the TMO)

>  Some good therapist seem to blur the line with their use of
> intuition.  I think the trick is to make sure there is a test loop to
> verify those intuitions and strong feelings.  They might be a
> fantastic insight into the patient or they might be something else. I
> think good, experienced therapists have this down, and bad ones don't.  

Astrology and jyotish present some interesting, untested, but testable
hypotheses. If a therapist uses such today as "given", he is a
charlatan. But he needs to conduct the rigorous testing and finds some
if any jyotish hypotheses hold up.

> Good astrologers might make good therapists if they had the interest
> in looking at it with the constraints ethical therapists impose. They
> are making claims that could be tested, unlike some other areas of
> human experience where they have a more legitimate case about
> scientific testing being unsuitable. I also think a lot of therapy
> systems are vulnerable to this same criticism.
> 
> Sam Harris likes to point out that many fields of belief like to use
> an appearance of science when it suits them, because the scientific
> method is part of our deepest intuition about what is credible. But if
> you live by that sword...

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

Hey Sal,

I'll have to think about what we mean by intuition.  For me, years of
noticing people's behaviors and patterns have sharpened my ability to
have better intuition about people's future behavior.  I think some
therapist have been noticing so many people in such detail that they
do develop a more highly refined ability.

But I may be missing your perspective on what intuitions are.  Can you
give an example so I can  understand how you use the term?  (hopefully
it will not include girlfriends cheating on me or shooting me!)



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> On Jun 10, 2006, at 10:28 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:
> 
> > You may have two good terms for the same thing!  I think of intuition
> > as an internal ability to detect patterns and create wholes out of
> > perceived parts.
> 
> It's not really an ability, though--more like a characteristic.  It's 
> not something that you can really develop, at least not in my 
> experience. It's something that you begin to recognize has pretty much 
> always been there.
> 
> >  It may not be verbal at first.  I accept the idea
> > that you can intuit that my girlfriend will probably cheat on me after
> > you talk with her.  I don't accept that you can intuit that we will be
> > in a car crash next week.
> 
> You *can* intuit that, but it may or may not be accurate.  Intuition 
> usually is about things that are not quite so concrete and specific. 
> And it doesn't always have to be about bad stuff either!
> 
> >  I think the accuracy of intuition can be
> > improved through practice.
> 
> Not really.  What can be improved is the trust you develop in your own 
> experience and feelings, but  there is really no  way to practice that, 
> IMO. It just sort of comes when you're ready for it.
> 
> Sal
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> That's not intuition, that's common sense, Curtis. Intuition is that
> >> annoying thing :) you often hear women say, "I just have a
feeling..."
> >> about something or someone that seems completely illogical at the 
> >> time,
> >> but turns out to be fairly accurate at some point later.  That's
> >> intuition.
> >>
> >> Sal
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jun 10, 2006, at 8:35 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:
> >>
> >>> If a person goes
> >>> to bed drunk with a gun under their pillow every night, and is in an
> >>> abusive relationship, my intuition tells me that someday,
someone may
> >>> get shot.
> >>
> >
>







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

Actually, I should have said that the latter is more like a premonition than intuition, and I'm not quite sure of the overlap.  As for the former, if that's the case I intuit that you and your girlfriend need to sit down and have a long talk. :)

Sal


On Jun 10, 2006, at 10:28 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:

I accept the idea
that you can intuit that my girlfriend will probably cheat on me after
you talk with her.  I don't accept that you can intuit that we will be
in a car crash next week.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

On Jun 10, 2006, at 10:28 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:

> You may have two good terms for the same thing!  I think of intuition
> as an internal ability to detect patterns and create wholes out of
> perceived parts.

It's not really an ability, though--more like a characteristic.  It's 
not something that you can really develop, at least not in my 
experience. It's something that you begin to recognize has pretty much 
always been there.

>  It may not be verbal at first.  I accept the idea
> that you can intuit that my girlfriend will probably cheat on me after
> you talk with her.  I don't accept that you can intuit that we will be
> in a car crash next week.

You *can* intuit that, but it may or may not be accurate.  Intuition 
usually is about things that are not quite so concrete and specific. 
And it doesn't always have to be about bad stuff either!

>  I think the accuracy of intuition can be
> improved through practice.

Not really.  What can be improved is the trust you develop in your own 
experience and feelings, but  there is really no  way to practice that, 
IMO. It just sort of comes when you're ready for it.

Sal
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> That's not intuition, that's common sense, Curtis. Intuition is that
>> annoying thing :) you often hear women say, "I just have a feeling..."
>> about something or someone that seems completely illogical at the 
>> time,
>> but turns out to be fairly accurate at some point later.  That's
>> intuition.
>>
>> Sal
>>
>>
>> On Jun 10, 2006, at 8:35 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:
>>
>>> If a person goes
>>> to bed drunk with a gun under their pillow every night, and is in an
>>> abusive relationship, my intuition tells me that someday, someone may
>>> get shot.
>>
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jun 10, 2006, at 12:27 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
> 
> > "Magical thinking,", myth, art, poetry, drama, literature, dreams, are
> > great things -- in the vast realms that science does not provide a
> > more effective, predicable, researched and validated set of models,
> > explanations and remedies / technologies.
> >
> > We have discussed this a bit before in the realm of logic. Logic has
> > its realm. As does poetry. And I don't want a poet fixing the jet
> > engine in the plane I am going to fly in, but I would rather hear the
> > poet, rather have Neruda, not the mechanic, waxing on about love.
> 
> 
> One thing that Sanskrit literature and philosophy teaches us is that  
> each drishti or way-of-seeing is unique, and therefore each way-of- 
> seeing has it's own unique, internal logic. These are relative to one  
> another, but different. This is part of conventionality or the  
> relative. Waking state's linear logic may appear different to dream  
> state's logic, and waking state's way-of-seeing may see dreaming  
> state's logic as "magical thinking". It would also see the way-of- 
> seeing of Unity Consciousness the same way (as magical thinking). All  
> these things really tell you is looking *across* different ways-of- 
> seeing only shows that different ways-of-seeing are relative to one  
> another.
> 
> Different beings, in different dimensions of existence will also  
> experience the same phenomenon differently. A traditional example  
> given would be of a river which a human would see as something to  
> drink, fish would see as their home and gods would see as nectar  
> (etc., etc.).

The view in Jivan-mukta or other states does not change  the chemistry
and physics of a jet engine. The perspective and context aboutsuch
knowledge may change, but Bernoulli's law is still Bernoulli's law. 

(Except on Trans-Love Airlines -- which gets you THERE on time" as
Donovan and Jefferson Airplane sang.)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

We can pick this one up anytime Judy.  Have a great trip!



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" 
>  wrote:
> >
> > One more point about Astrology.  It is making a scientific claim 
> about
> > the relationship between the chart systems and their predictive
> > ability.  It is bound by the system it mimics, but had not yet 
> passed
> > the test.  If it claimed a mystical, un-measurable connection, it
> > would be better off in my opinion.
> > 
> > Last time I read the New Testament, I was surprised by the extensive
> > proof system employed.  The divinity of Jesus is demonstrated by a
> > series of miracles which are meant as a kind of scientific evidence
> > that he was extra ordinary.  I had forgotten how much of the text is
> > taken up by this "evidence".  The second case is made on the basis 
> of
> > his fitting the poetic words of the Old Testament predictions for 
> the
> > messiah.  It is only when it is pointed out to a Christian that the
> > evidence is poor that they resort to the tactic of claiming that 
> faith
> > is the important aspect.  The Bible is a whole series of poor 
> evidence
> > presentations meant to prove his divinity in an evidence-based 
> method
> > that would be scientific if they followed any of the rules of 
> evidence
> > in the scientific method. (which they do not).
> 
> That's a very interesting point.  I wish I had time to
> get into it, but I have to get ready to go out of town.
> 
> I'll have limited access to the Internet for about a
> week, damn it, just as a really fascinating discussion
> is getting started.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

You may have two good terms for the same thing!  I think of intuition
as an internal ability to detect patterns and create wholes out of
perceived parts.  It may not be verbal at first.  I accept the idea
that you can intuit that my girlfriend will probably cheat on me after
you talk with her.  I don't accept that you can intuit that we will be
in a car crash next week.   I think the accuracy of intuition can be
improved through practice.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> That's not intuition, that's common sense, Curtis. Intuition is that 
> annoying thing :) you often hear women say, "I just have a feeling..." 
> about something or someone that seems completely illogical at the time, 
> but turns out to be fairly accurate at some point later.  That's 
> intuition.
> 
> Sal
> 
> 
> On Jun 10, 2006, at 8:35 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:
> 
> > If a person goes
> > to bed drunk with a gun under their pillow every night, and is in an
> > abusive relationship, my intuition tells me that someday, someone may
> > get shot.
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate 
>  wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your thoughts and inputs. 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate 
> > >  wrote:
> > 
> > I don't think he's thought these points through
> > > very well, or at least he isn't explaining them
> > > clearly.  He seems to be saying, for example, that
> > > the "magical thinking" of astrology was replaced
> > > by scientific knowledge of the regularity of the
> > > motions of the heavenly bodies, when in fact the
> > > "omens and signs" of astrology are grounded in
> > > very detailed and precise observation of that
> > > regularity.
> > 
> > His examples could have been stronger. To me, his first two seem to
> > fit his thesis, that science abandons mystical and occult
> > explanations, which have not stood up well to research (or there is 
> > a lack of it), for material causes which have substantial research 
> > that show strong efficacy.
> 
> Sure.  I'm just taking issue with the examples he
> uses.  On the other hand, scientific explanations
> and research don't *necessarily* always take the
> place of mystical and occult ones; in many cases
> they can c o-exist.  It depends on the specific
> example.

Examples? It seems to me if science is "weak" in a particular area,
then myth and supernatural explanations will fill the vacuum. When
science is strong. the latter diminish. 

But the mix also has to do with what level one is viewing, first
causes, and whys. For example, science knows a lot about the first few
seconds of the universe -- the what's and how's. That doesn't preclude
the possibility of a deeper level of say a Shiva stirring, or an
emergence from the navel  of Brahma. If the latter serves some
purpose, perhaps to define for some the "why's" of theuniverse, then
fine. It doesn't contradict science. They are on different levels,
looking at different questions.

 
> > To me he is not attempting to negate the notion
> > that there are divine forces, or even green cheese, or lepricons
> > behind weather and disease. His underlying point I believe, is that
> > there is no body of research that indicates these are credible
> > explanations.
> 
> But as you go on to suggest, in at least some areas,
> objective scientific research is the wrong tool for
> the job.  I doubt he sees it that way; my impression
> is he believes if it can't be proved by science, it's
> essentially meaningless and not worth considering.

I have not gotten that from him (yet?). If thats his view, I disagree. 
Some strict logical postitivists seem to hold that view. Thats a very
"dry" view IMO.

 
> > He should have used a different example than astrology, or said
> > something along the lines of
> > "> >"Astrology's unsubstantiated heavenly omens 
> > > > and signs for maladies were replaced by more reliable and
> > substantiated diagnoses and remedies based on medical, educational,
> > social and economic research."
> 
> Yes, there are plenty of other better examples, or
> he could have used the astrology example as you
> suggest, which would have made a lot more sense.
> Of course, there's more to astrology than that, but
> in those areas, at least, he'd have had a point.
> 
> That he used astrology so sloppily is, to me, a sign
> that he really doesn't take subjective stuff
> seriously enough to make a good case for dismissing
> it.
> 
> 
> > I take Kurtz as a source of good ideas, but not necessarily
> > authoritative -- particularly in areas where he has limited 
> knowledge
> > or experience.  I said / implied that rigorous methods of 
> naturalistic
> > inquiry should be applied to "subjective science." Let me refine 
> that.
> > 
> > "Rigorous use of logic, reasoning, the rooting out of interpretative
> > and cognitive errors and biases, unbiased, independent scientific 
> and
> > statistical methods for testing of corrleates of the subjective
> > experience, discerning causes from correlation, relegating untested
> > scriptural and mythical explanations and models to being 'untested
> > hypotheses' can and should be applied to "subjective sciences"."
> > 
> > This was the original but unfulfilled promise of the orginal SCI
> > taught at Stanford in 1971. It is what a lot of current cognitive
> > science is about. I think Kurtz would be interested in such. At 
> > least it would be a good discussion.
> 
> I'm dubious that he'd be that interested, but it sure
> would be interesting if he'd take it on.

I am more optimistic. But I have not read that much of him. At least
if he go engaged in it, it wold be an interesting discussion. I like
discussions with sharp knowledgable people with a different POV. They
point out holes in ones own thinking.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: How do you spell roo

2006-06-10 Thread gimari03

'Ru began as short for "Guru" .. referring to the TMers who came to FF when MIU 
first came 
to FF in 1974.

I was the first 'Ru out of FF high school.. class of 1975.  MSAE/ MIU prep was 
only 
preschool at that time.

"Roo later evolved when referring to the kangaroo hopping in the domes.

'Tater was another term that went by the wayside.

'Rubs as deragotory for the Trojans.. as in FF high school teams... came about 
when there 
were tensions between the 'Ru teens and the local teens in the 1980s

So, what book is coming out soon??

Gina

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bob_brigante <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
> >
> >  
> > In a message dated 5/22/06 2:33:36 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> > dawnhawk@ writes:
> > 
> > Does  anyone have a difinitive opinion about how to spell roo, as 
> TM people 
> > in  Fairfield are 
> > often refered to. It seems like the correct way would be 'ru  
> since it is a 
> > contraction for 
> > guru. But on the few occassions I have seen  it in print I think 
> it has been 
> > spelled roo. I 
> > need to know for my book  which will be coming out in a week or 
> two.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Wow! You have a book coming out in a couple of weeks and  you're 
> just now 
> > checking the spelling?
> >
> 
> *
> 
> It was the Fairfield High School kids who first started the 
> word "ru." I recall while I was in living in Missouri, the kids 
> would refer to people of the female persuasion as "gina," which is 
> not pronounced like the Italian actress' name (Ms. Lollobrigida), so 
> the epithet for TMers was probably more reflective of youthful 
> playfulness than hostility, although kids certainly are not shy 
> about showing lack of respect.
> 
> To counter the ru thing, some Fairfield TMers started referring to 
> locals as "rubs," since the Fairfield High School team name was 
> the "Trojans" (the name for a prophylactic brand for you non-
> Americans), but it never really caught on.
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

2006-06-10 Thread Nelson

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
>  wrote:
> >
> > No, I have not read that one. It looks good. 
> > 
> > I think cognitve biases and logical fallacies are the 
> > cornorstones to "magical thinking". (I appreciate your 
> > recent cites and posts on such.) And magical interpretations
> > -- whether of experiences, "scriptures" or current events.
> > 
> > Magical thinking (MT) takes one to the opposite cornor of 
> > What Is. MT may bring some feel-good comfort to the soul, 
> > and be the fuel for dreamers, but ultimately its illusion 
> > and delusion. 
> 
> Sorry, dude, I know you like to swing your intellectual
> dick and all, and I guess that's fun if you get off on 
> that sort of thing, but all of this is starting to sound 
> a lot like "sour grapes" to me. 
> 
> That is, "I'm a little pissed off that others have had
> experiences I haven't, experiences that seem to push the 
> envelope of 'rational thinking' and defy description in
> normal terms, so I'm going to declare anyone who can't
> describe his experiences in neat little boxes the way I 
> like things described a 'dreamer' and lost in 'illusion.'"
> 
> Uptight people have been doing this to mystics as long 
> as there have been mystics. Mystics have been laughing 
> at the uptight people for pretty much the same length
> of time. :-)
>
+++  Bingo






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[FairfieldLife] Re: SRV: Voodoo Chile

Great way to start the day  Thanks.  One of the few electric guitar
players that I like as much as acoustic ones.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGN-he074PM
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

"> 2) in the absence of an obvious natural cause, there must be an
> unknown and un-natural cause
> +++ In the absence of an obvious natural cause, there must be an
unknown and natural cause otherwise what you see isn't happening.
Like the rest of us, Mr. Kurtz can make observations that
reflect his opinion and don't have great merit. N."


If i understand your point correctly, the difference is between one
person saying "I heard a sound last night", and another saying "It
must be a ghost". 



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
>  wrote:
> >
> > Curtis,
> >I agree with the general point that using words in discussions with
> > others that have a perjorative connonation -- to them -- is not
> > usually helpful to the tone and fruitfulness of the discussion. Often
> > this occurs when there is not a common understanding of meaning.
> > Reading your recent posts /cites from Kurtz helped me sharpen up my
> > definition of "magical thinking" -- as I hope, perhaps naievly (that
> > they read it), it has for others
> > 
> > And I don't think the term is necessarily pejoritive when understood.
> > Some ascribe to its merits and value, others do not. Its becomes a
> > simple statement of fact about someones mode of inquiry for one
who has 
> > "an actual ignorance of the natural causes of events in question,
> > ... the assumption that, in the absence of an obvious natural cause,
> > there must be an unknown and un-natural cause. ... These two factors
> > in conjunction allow for the development of ad hoc explanations, often
> > relying upon an assumption that correlation demonstrates causation.
> > ... This magical thinking is certainly irrational, in that it
> > deliberately bases conclusions upon a clear lack of demonstrable
> > evidence and without regard for logical coherence or consistency. ...
> > but why are people tempted to accept these stories? The explanation is
> > twofold - first our innate creativity, and second our penchant for
> > seeking patterns. Together, they can lead people to false beliefs. "
> > (Kurtz)
> > 
> > There are those on this list that openly proclaim, or demonstrate a
> > strong belief in via, their writings that:
> > 
> > 1) correlation demonstrates causation
> > 
> > 2) in the absence of an obvious natural cause, there must be an
> > unknown and un-natural cause
> > +++ In the absence of an obvious natural cause, there must be an
>   unknown and natural cause otherwise what you see isn't happening.
>   Like the rest of us, Mr. Kurtz can make observations that
> reflect his opinion and don't have great merit.  N.
>







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

That's not intuition, that's common sense, Curtis. Intuition is that annoying thing :) you often hear women say, "I just have a feeling..." about something or someone that seems completely illogical at the time, but turns out to be fairly accurate at some point later.  That's intuition.

Sal


On Jun 10, 2006, at 8:35 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote:

If a person goes
to bed drunk with a gun under their pillow every night, and is in an
abusive relationship, my intuition tells me that someday, someone may
get shot.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

 "I think we may be saying something roughly similar,
except that I don't know whether you put much stock
in intuition."

I definitely do, although I may or may not have more limits on how far
that can go.  In the field of psychology and human behavior, intuition
seems to be a critical tool.  I don't believe that they intuit the
future exactly,  but I'll bet they can detect trends in behavior that
have a good chance of leading somewhere predictable.  If a person goes
to bed drunk with a gun under their pillow every night, and is in an
abusive relationship, my intuition tells me that someday, someone may
get shot.  There are many more subtle character trends I think highly
empathetic people can detect no matter what their field.

> The thing with people like Kurtz, I suspect, is that
> his predisposition to dismiss astrology (and other such
> endeavors) has kept him from examining what *good*
> astrology looks like.  In effect, at least partly, he's
> dismissing a straw man.

That wouldn't surprise me.  I think it is up to astrology to present a
better case or show an interest in good studies.  The arrogance of the
position that "we already know it is true so we don't have to prove it
to you" is a problem in many fields, some claiming to be scientific. 
Paul may be placing the burden of proof on others to present claims in
a way that is falsifiable.  If they are not willing to present it in
this manor then their sincerity is automatically questioned by many
skeptics.

Astrologers are the ones framing their field as a precise science
rather than a  more subjective, internal vision, so applying
scientific standards to them seems appropriate.  If they want the
benefit of the enhanced credibility of having a system, which is more
than intuition, then they can be judged by scientific criteria.  Many
systems would be a lot more honest if they would just admit what they
are really basing the system on.

My sense of astrology (and any system of divination)
> is that the system is a tool for focusing the
> intuition of the astrologer.  I don't have time to
> get into it, but it's the *system* that's important,
> the way it's structured and organized, not the
> supposed correlations with the actual physical
> motions of the planets.  With a skilled astrologer
> with highly developed intuition, the system would work
> even if it existed in a vacuum.

I think of it almost the same way.  Although I might be more cynical
about the appearance of a system being used to build credibility and
trust with their customer base.

In the area of psychology, and predicting life trends and likely
consequences, it is more up to the development of their people wisdom.
 Some good therapist seem to blur the line with their use of
intuition.  I think the trick is to make sure there is a test loop to
verify those intuitions and strong feelings.  They might be a
fantastic insight into the patient or they might be something else. I
think good, experienced therapists have this down, and bad ones don't.  

With Western astrology I think you almost have to make this shift of
emphasis, because the constellations they are referring to are
actually not in the places claimed.  By the premise of their own
system, it is not consistent.

Good astrologers might make good therapists if they had the interest
in looking at it with the constraints ethical therapists impose. They
are making claims that could be tested, unlike some other areas of
human experience where they have a more legitimate case about
scientific testing being unsuitable. I also think a lot of therapy
systems are vulnerable to this same criticism.

Sam Harris likes to point out that many fields of belief like to use
an appearance of science when it suits them, because the scientific
method is part of our deepest intuition about what is credible. But if
you live by that sword...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" 
>  wrote:
> >
> > You might enjoy Ken Wilber's discussion of "subjective
> > science" in his book "Eye to Eye."
> > 
> > Thanks, I put it on hold at the library.  (I love free books and
> > internet access!)
> > 
> >  Why is the
> > > shift away from values and toward measurement a Good
> > > Thing, necessarily?  Why can't there be both?
> > 
> > If there is a connection between the planets, as Vedic astrology
> > claims, it could be tested with all the rigor science can muster. 
> > Western astrology seems to rely on a language form.  One that 
> > allows a person to see their own personality traits in the vague, 
> > subjective language.
> 
> It can be.  It can also, in the hands of a serious
> astrologer, be as specific as any analysis by a
> trained psychologist.  (There's a trend in Western
> astrology, in fact, for astrologers to take
> intensive professional-level training in psychology.)
> 
> > It is a science of linguistics more than a 
> > statement about

[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

2006-06-10 Thread Nelson

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Curtis,
>I agree with the general point that using words in discussions with
> others that have a perjorative connonation -- to them -- is not
> usually helpful to the tone and fruitfulness of the discussion. Often
> this occurs when there is not a common understanding of meaning.
> Reading your recent posts /cites from Kurtz helped me sharpen up my
> definition of "magical thinking" -- as I hope, perhaps naievly (that
> they read it), it has for others
> 
> And I don't think the term is necessarily pejoritive when understood.
> Some ascribe to its merits and value, others do not. Its becomes a
> simple statement of fact about someones mode of inquiry for one who has 
> "an actual ignorance of the natural causes of events in question,
> ... the assumption that, in the absence of an obvious natural cause,
> there must be an unknown and un-natural cause. ... These two factors
> in conjunction allow for the development of ad hoc explanations, often
> relying upon an assumption that correlation demonstrates causation.
> ... This magical thinking is certainly irrational, in that it
> deliberately bases conclusions upon a clear lack of demonstrable
> evidence and without regard for logical coherence or consistency. ...
> but why are people tempted to accept these stories? The explanation is
> twofold - first our innate creativity, and second our penchant for
> seeking patterns. Together, they can lead people to false beliefs. "
> (Kurtz)
> 
> There are those on this list that openly proclaim, or demonstrate a
> strong belief in via, their writings that:
> 
> 1) correlation demonstrates causation
> 
> 2) in the absence of an obvious natural cause, there must be an
> unknown and un-natural cause
> +++ In the absence of an obvious natural cause, there must be an
  unknown and natural cause otherwise what you see isn't happening.
  Like the rest of us, Mr. Kurtz can make observations that
reflect his opinion and don't have great merit.  N.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
 
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
> > > >  
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > on 6/9/06 7:41 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > "Another" disciple besides whom, Vaj?
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Besides MMY. The swami interviewed in the article was 
one 
> > of 
> > > > MMY¹s
> > > > > > > fellow disciples.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > But as you know, MMY doesn't "embrace radical Hindu
> > > > > > Creationism."
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > More precisely, MMY's version of "radical Hindu 
Creationism" is
> > > > > likely different than the one touted in the article.
> > > > 
> > > > As Vaj knows, MMY isn't even remotely a creationist
> > > > in the sense described in the article, contrary to
> > > > what his deliberately misleading subject heading
> > > > implies.
> > > > 
> > > > > Certainly, MMY can be described as a radical Hindu 
> > Fundamentalist...
> > > > 
> > > > You could also describe him as Jewish if you wanted.
> > > 
> > > Well, no. MMY isn't Jewish. However, he believes that the Vedic
> > > literature is often (always?) literally true.
> > 
> > I'm not convinced that's the case in many areas.
> > Has he ever said evolutionary theory is wrong, for
> > example?
> 
> Why would he say this? A literalist interpretation of the Vedic
> literature may or may not contradict modern views of the world, 
> depending on the interpretation. Plenty of Fundamentalist 
> Christians embrace evolutionary theory via the "Day-Age" 
> interpretation of Genesis, for instance.

Yeah, but that's not "literalist," strictly speaking.
Not all fundies are literalists in the strict sense of
the term, by any means.  But if they *are* literalists,
they have to deny evolutionary theory.

My impression of MMY is that he sees the scriptural
myths as metaphors but takes the much more abstract
*referents* of the metaphors literally.

Did God say "Let there be light," etc., or did God
say, "Let there be a Big Bang and we'll see what
happens," "Let there be evolution and we'll see what
it comes up with"?

(The above sentence more germane to my response to
Vaj in another post, but I've got to get out the
door in two minutes and I don't have time to
move it over!)






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

2006-06-10 Thread wayback71

I found this entire thread very interesting.Thanks for all of it.  I have 
similar (not so erudite 
from my side) conversations with a close friend who is 70 and an 
engineer/scientist.  He is 
very anti-religion, never had a "mystical experience" in his life,but is 
intrigued by the idea, 
altho I think a bit nervous about how he would interpret it if it did happen.  
MOre than 
anything, he wishes he could live another 200 years and see what science comes 
up with 
about the human brain.  From a "religious" or meditaion perspective, it seems 
that all of 
life, for everyone, involves magical thinking of one sort or another.  Everyone 
 constructs 
their own reality all day long, based on all sorts of variables.  The ultimate 
delusion, of 
course, being identification of the Self with the body and mind. I look forward 
to what 
science finds,because I have in the last 10 years doubted at times whether 
mystical 
experiences mean anything more than a different style of brain function. It 
comforts me 
think that it does.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate 
>  wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your thoughts and inputs. 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate 
> > >  wrote:
> > 
> > I don't think he's thought these points through
> > > very well, or at least he isn't explaining them
> > > clearly.  He seems to be saying, for example, that
> > > the "magical thinking" of astrology was replaced
> > > by scientific knowledge of the regularity of the
> > > motions of the heavenly bodies, when in fact the
> > > "omens and signs" of astrology are grounded in
> > > very detailed and precise observation of that
> > > regularity.
> > 
> > His examples could have been stronger. To me, his first two seem to
> > fit his thesis, that science abandons mystical and occult
> > explanations, which have not stood up well to research (or there is 
> > a lack of it), for material causes which have substantial research 
> > that show strong efficacy.
> 
> Sure.  I'm just taking issue with the examples he
> uses.  On the other hand, scientific explanations
> and research don't *necessarily* always take the
> place of mystical and occult ones; in many cases
> they can co-exist.  It depends on the specific
> example.
> 
> > To me he is not attempting to negate the notion
> > that there are divine forces, or even green cheese, or lepricons
> > behind weather and disease. His underlying point I believe, is that
> > there is no body of research that indicates these are credible
> > explanations.
> 
> But as you go on to suggest, in at least some areas,
> objective scientific research is the wrong tool for
> the job.  I doubt he sees it that way; my impression
> is he believes if it can't be proved by science, it's
> essentially meaningless and not worth considering.
> 
> > He should have used a different example than astrology, or said
> > something along the lines of
> > "> >"Astrology's unsubstantiated heavenly omens 
> > > > and signs for maladies were replaced by more reliable and
> > substantiated diagnoses and remedies based on medical, educational,
> > social and economic research."
> 
> Yes, there are plenty of other better examples, or
> he could have used the astrology example as you
> suggest, which would have made a lot more sense.
> Of course, there's more to astrology than that, but
> in those areas, at least, he'd have had a point.
> 
> That he used astrology so sloppily is, to me, a sign
> that he really doesn't take subjective stuff
> seriously enough to make a good case for dismissing
> it.
> 
> 
> > I take Kurtz as a source of good ideas, but not necessarily
> > authoritative -- particularly in areas where he has limited 
> knowledge
> > or experience.  I said / implied that rigorous methods of 
> naturalistic
> > inquiry should be applied to "subjective science." Let me refine 
> that.
> > 
> > "Rigorous use of logic, reasoning, the rooting out of interpretative
> > and cognitive errors and biases, unbiased, independent scientific 
> and
> > statistical methods for testing of corrleates of the subjective
> > experience, discerning causes from correlation, relegating untested
> > scriptural and mythical explanations and models to being 'untested
> > hypotheses' can and should be applied to "subjective sciences"."
> > 
> > This was the original but unfulfilled promise of the orginal SCI
> > taught at Stanford in 1971. It is what a lot of current cognitive
> > science is about. I think Kurtz would be interested in such. At 
> > least it would be a good discussion.
> 
> I'm dubious that he'd be that interested, but it sure
> would be interesting if he'd take it on.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Very interesting, thanks for sharing this!
> 
> I would also point out that just because both various Hindu gurus 
and  
> Christian fundamentalists describe creationist and intelligent 
design  
> ideas that does not mean they are precisely the same--these are  
> *parallel* ideas. They share a lot, but express it quite 
differently  
> and therefore you have to be discerning to see the very real  
> parallels between the two.

As well as to decide which parallels are significant
and which are not in terms of the particular argument
one is making.

For example, the "God made the universe" parallel
would be significant if one were arguing that
evolutionary theory disproved the idea that God was
behind the creation of the universe.

If you were arguing that "God made the universe" was
a rejection of the scientific understanding, on the
other hand, you'd need to distinguish between systems
of thought that felt "God made the universe" trumped
evolutionary theory and systems that have no difficulty
coexisting with it.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> One more point about Astrology.  It is making a scientific claim 
about
> the relationship between the chart systems and their predictive
> ability.  It is bound by the system it mimics, but had not yet 
passed
> the test.  If it claimed a mystical, un-measurable connection, it
> would be better off in my opinion.
> 
> Last time I read the New Testament, I was surprised by the extensive
> proof system employed.  The divinity of Jesus is demonstrated by a
> series of miracles which are meant as a kind of scientific evidence
> that he was extra ordinary.  I had forgotten how much of the text is
> taken up by this "evidence".  The second case is made on the basis 
of
> his fitting the poetic words of the Old Testament predictions for 
the
> messiah.  It is only when it is pointed out to a Christian that the
> evidence is poor that they resort to the tactic of claiming that 
faith
> is the important aspect.  The Bible is a whole series of poor 
evidence
> presentations meant to prove his divinity in an evidence-based 
method
> that would be scientific if they followed any of the rules of 
evidence
> in the scientific method. (which they do not).

That's a very interesting point.  I wish I had time to
get into it, but I have to get ready to go out of town.

I'll have limited access to the Internet for about a
week, damn it, just as a really fascinating discussion
is getting started.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

On Jun 10, 2006, at 12:27 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:"Magical thinking,", myth, art, poetry, drama, literature, dreams, are great things -- in the vast realms that science does not provide a more effective, predicable, researched and validated set of models, explanations and remedies / technologies. We have discussed this a bit before in the realm of logic. Logic has its realm. As does poetry. And I don't want a poet fixing the jet engine in the plane I am going to fly in, but I would rather hear the poet, rather have Neruda, not the mechanic, waxing on about love. One thing that Sanskrit literature and philosophy teaches us is that each drishti or way-of-seeing is unique, and therefore each way-of-seeing has it's own unique, internal logic. These are relative to one another, but different. This is part of conventionality or the relative. Waking state's linear logic may appear different to dream state's logic, and waking state's way-of-seeing may see dreaming state's logic as "magical thinking". It would also see the way-of-seeing of Unity Consciousness the same way (as magical thinking). All these things really tell you is looking *across* different ways-of-seeing only shows that different ways-of-seeing are relative to one another.Different beings, in different dimensions of existence will also experience the same phenomenon differently. A traditional example given would be of a river which a human would see as something to drink, fish would see as their home and gods would see as nectar (etc., etc.).
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You might enjoy Ken Wilber's discussion of "subjective
> science" in his book "Eye to Eye."
> 
> Thanks, I put it on hold at the library.  (I love free books and
> internet access!)
> 
>  Why is the
> > shift away from values and toward measurement a Good
> > Thing, necessarily?  Why can't there be both?
> 
> If there is a connection between the planets, as Vedic astrology
> claims, it could be tested with all the rigor science can muster. 
> Western astrology seems to rely on a language form.  One that 
> allows a person to see their own personality traits in the vague, 
> subjective language.

It can be.  It can also, in the hands of a serious
astrologer, be as specific as any analysis by a
trained psychologist.  (There's a trend in Western
astrology, in fact, for astrologers to take
intensive professional-level training in psychology.)

> It is a science of linguistics more than a 
> statement about the relationship between the planetary positions 
> and man.  The same technique used by many psychics.

My sense of astrology (and any system of divination)
is that the system is a tool for focusing the
intuition of the astrologer.  I don't have time to
get into it, but it's the *system* that's important,
the way it's structured and organized, not the
supposed correlations with the actual physical
motions of the planets.  With a skilled astrologer
with highly developed intuition, the system would work
even if it existed in a vacuum.

I think we may be saying something roughly similar,
except that I don't know whether you put much stock
in intuition.

> But in principle I agree with your point.  Values was a poor choice
> of words on my part.  Values are not so subject to measurement nor
> probably should they be.  That is where your point about the value
> of subjective experience makes sense to me.  The world is bigger 
> than what we are measuring.  But many claims (western astrology) 
> are not bigger, they are just winging it mascaraing as a system.  
> That hurts the cause of legitimate areas of thought not yet being 
> measured and being missed.

I agree, when astrology is poorly done.  But I do
think that serious and dedicated astrologers have
more to offer than that.

The thing with people like Kurtz, I suspect, is that
his predisposition to dismiss astrology (and other such
endeavors) has kept him from examining what *good*
astrology looks like.  In effect, at least partly, he's
dismissing a straw man.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?

Very interesting, thanks for sharing this!I would also point out that just because both various Hindu gurus and Christian fundamentalists describe creationist and intelligent design ideas that does not mean they are precisely the same--these are *parallel* ideas. They share a lot, but express it quite differently and therefore you have to be discerning to see the very real parallels between the two.As Patrick pointed out one time, Fundamentalist Christian idealogy expresses ideas in the extreme *right* of western society while eastern thought *expressed relative to western society* /appears/ very much to the far left. However these same eastern ideas, when set in the own culture, represent similar nationalist, right-wing, fundamentalist movements as we see in fundamentalist, Christian, western mores.Everything is relative in the relative.On Jun 9, 2006, at 5:52 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm not convinced that's the case in many areas. Has he ever said evolutionary theory is wrong, for example? When asked who was correct Evolutionists or Fundamentalists (god created man with no intermediate steps), he said "Both are right". He takes Yuga ages as literally true. (Sort of the inverse of the Christian problem of 6000 years. Fundamentalist Hindus would hold human societies way way before the many branches of science find any evidence - direct or indirect) MMY used to hold that humans had two identical nervous systems (not to be confused with sympathetic,para-symopatheic, or two hemespheres of brain, etc. He said not to all that. "Its two identical nervous systems"). And thats how CC could be maintained. One in silence, the other in activity. I think the idea comes from Hindu scripture. Castes, role of women, vedic kings, Age of Rama .. all pretty Hindu fundamentalist ideas.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Cognitve Biases and Logical Fallacies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your thoughts and inputs. 
> 
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate 
> >  wrote:
> 
> I don't think he's thought these points through
> > very well, or at least he isn't explaining them
> > clearly.  He seems to be saying, for example, that
> > the "magical thinking" of astrology was replaced
> > by scientific knowledge of the regularity of the
> > motions of the heavenly bodies, when in fact the
> > "omens and signs" of astrology are grounded in
> > very detailed and precise observation of that
> > regularity.
> 
> His examples could have been stronger. To me, his first two seem to
> fit his thesis, that science abandons mystical and occult
> explanations, which have not stood up well to research (or there is 
> a lack of it), for material causes which have substantial research 
> that show strong efficacy.

Sure.  I'm just taking issue with the examples he
uses.  On the other hand, scientific explanations
and research don't *necessarily* always take the
place of mystical and occult ones; in many cases
they can co-exist.  It depends on the specific
example.

> To me he is not attempting to negate the notion
> that there are divine forces, or even green cheese, or lepricons
> behind weather and disease. His underlying point I believe, is that
> there is no body of research that indicates these are credible
> explanations.

But as you go on to suggest, in at least some areas,
objective scientific research is the wrong tool for
the job.  I doubt he sees it that way; my impression
is he believes if it can't be proved by science, it's
essentially meaningless and not worth considering.

> He should have used a different example than astrology, or said
> something along the lines of
> "> >"Astrology's unsubstantiated heavenly omens 
> > > and signs for maladies were replaced by more reliable and
> substantiated diagnoses and remedies based on medical, educational,
> social and economic research."

Yes, there are plenty of other better examples, or
he could have used the astrology example as you
suggest, which would have made a lot more sense.
Of course, there's more to astrology than that, but
in those areas, at least, he'd have had a point.

That he used astrology so sloppily is, to me, a sign
that he really doesn't take subjective stuff
seriously enough to make a good case for dismissing
it.

> I take Kurtz as a source of good ideas, but not necessarily
> authoritative -- particularly in areas where he has limited 
knowledge
> or experience.  I said / implied that rigorous methods of 
naturalistic
> inquiry should be applied to "subjective science." Let me refine 
that.
> 
> "Rigorous use of logic, reasoning, the rooting out of interpretative
> and cognitive errors and biases, unbiased, independent scientific 
and
> statistical methods for testing of corrleates of the subjective
> experience, discerning causes from correlation, relegating untested
> scriptural and mythical explanations and models to being 'untested
> hypotheses' can and should be applied to "subjective sciences"."
> 
> This was the original but unfulfilled promise of the orginal SCI
> taught at Stanford in 1971. It is what a lot of current cognitive
> science is about. I think Kurtz would be interested in such. At 
> least it would be a good discussion.

I'm dubious that he'd be that interested, but it sure
would be interesting if he'd take it on.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: mounting concerns about TM org in Kansas

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gimbel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> > > --- In  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > > (mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com) ,  MDixon6569@,  MDix
[...]
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Well, you know the TMO people that move in there will also  have 
> to get 
> > > involved in the local politics as they did in Fairfield. Smith  
> Center seems to be 
> > > a much smaller town than Fairfield and it sounds like to me  the 
> TMO people 
> > > will have a stronger impact politically which may or may not 
> have  an effect on 
> > > their welcome. Time will tell.
> > >
> > 
> > Sigh, revisionist history is so interesting to watch. The current 
> mayor of Fairfield practices 
> > TM and the TM-Sidhis. He replaced a guy who was mayor of Fairfield 
> for about 20 more 
> > years AFTER MIU arrived on the scene.
> 
> MIU moved to Fairfield in 1974- so that's 34 years...
> 
> 
> 

According to Wikipedia, he was first elected in 2001, so that's 27 years with a 
non-TMing 
mayor or mayors before the current one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairfield,_Iowa

Government

Fairfield is governed by a seven-member city council headed by a mayor. The 
current 
mayor, Ed Malloy, was first elected in 2001. Mayoral terms are two years. City 
council 
members serve staggered four-year terms. The council consists of one 
representative 
from each of the city's five wards, plus two at-large representatives. As of 
2006, city 
council members are Connie Boyer (at large), Myron Gookin (at large), Ron Adam 
(Ward 1), 
John Revolinski (Ward 2), Christy Ann Welty (Ward 3), Jim Rubis (Ward 4), and 
Daryn 
Hamilton (Ward 5). The chief administrative officer of the city is John F. 
Brown.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > If you want an example of contrived interference in local politics 
> by a  spiritual 
> > organization, you look at Antelope, Oregon, AKA Rancho Rajneesh, 
> NOT Fairfield, Iowa.
> >
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: mounting concerns about TM org in Kansas

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 6/9/06 3:44 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >>> > > 
> >> > It¹s worth mentioning that after all the decades of coexistence here in 
> >> > FF,
> >> > there¹s a pretty healthy overlap between the meditating and 
> >> > non-meditating
> >> > communities, not only in companies but in social settings. Even some
> >> > marriages. There are extremists at either end of the spectrum who won¹t
> >> > mingle, but perhaps a majority in the middle who will. Many of the
> >> mediating
> >> > minglers are TMers who have become open-minded and eclectic in their
> >> > approach to spirituality and life in general.
> >> >
> > 
> > Especially the followers of Robin Carlson,
> > 
> There aren¹t any.
> > 
> > your guru, and the rest of the former TBers,
> > right?
> > 
> Yes. They tend to be more open-minded than those on campus.
> > 
> > Durned few TBers of TM drop away from TM, and start following another guru,
> > have 
> > actually become liberal, in my observation.
> > 
> Then your observation is very limited (probably to Tucson) and therefore
> incorrect.
> > 
> > The TBers that drop away from TM and become
> > liberal, eschew gurus completely.
> > 
> Some do; most don¹t.
> > 
> > The TBers that drop away from TM and find another
> > guru are simply TBers of the new system/guru/whatever.
> > 
>  Some are. Most tend to be more objective and to move in the direction of
> being able to examine their assumptions.
>

Certainly doesn't seem to be the case on this forum. Case in point being the 
guy I'm 
responding to...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: mounting concerns about TM org in Kansas

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 6/9/06 3:46 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > I always laugh when I hear "drought prone". One man's drought is another 
> > man's
> > excessive 
> > rainfall... There are plenty of cash crops in southern Arizona, even though 
> > it
> > has less than 
> > 15 inches of rainfall a year, on average.
> > 
> Because you irrigate, right?
>

Irrigation from wells, the CAP and orginally from the rivers before the  dams 
up north dried 
up the whole river system. 

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Another SBS disciple embraces radical Hindu Creationism?