Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
On Jul 17, 2011, at 2:42 AM, Bob Price wrote: Sal, we always miss you when you are away! Aw, thanks Bob! I say we take up a collection for anyone willing to pull off something like that. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Raunch Don't look any further! You might have to shoulder the burden of knowing Sal's mantra if you read the reply. So don't do it! You'll become the lap dog of demons. . --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: That what it says in the checking notes of D.J. Wahl Ghoul. Apparently he can't keep his sources separate. Still got a doubt that he never learned any of it? Not moi. That's been clear for some time. All his various smoking-gun missteps along these lines are just the kinds of things someone on the outside looking in would be likely to assume about how the technique is taught and practiced. It makes perfect sense for such a person to figure that something called checking in the TM context would of course involve having one's mantra checked, either as part of the routine or upon request. He may even be remembering point 23E from having read the checking notes and erroneously thinking that's what it refers to. Checking doesn't mean checking the mantra. The purpose of checking is to give the right *experience* of meditation, which is effortless meditation. Other than point 23E, the only time an initiator explicitly checks the pronunciation of a mantra is individually with new meditators after the third night of checking. The wording in Maharishi's checking notes is brilliant and in this instance very delicate so as not to make a big deal out of it or risk disturbing the innocence and naturalness of meditation: And you remember your mantra? [Assumes everything is AOK, but whether yes or no, it doesn't matter.] Whisper softly what you feel it is. [This is so cool. You engage his quiet feeling not his noisy intellect by saying, What do you *think* it is?] If the mantra was wrong, you just reassure him it is all right now. Anything that creates doubt and confusion about meditation or pronunciation of the mantra is the antithesis of the checking procedure and effortless meditation. No wonder he won't give out the basic names of his initiator and his course(s). But I am impressed. Apparently Namkhai Norbu's webinars now give modified instructions in TM. It's just no longer the same old vajra-japa you seen in the Buddhist Tantras. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: snip One POV worth considering is that since TM does not generally oppose the mantra changing in sound or quality or speed, etc., ones mantra could change and they would not remember the original sound they were given, but the morphed version. I know mine morphed so that I had to be re-told it on checking several times... As much as anythign else I suspect that that was a nod to your anxiety, rather than an essential part of checking... He seems to think that it's a routine part of checking for the meditator to tell the checker his/her mantra, whereupon the checker corrects it if necessary. Not the case. Any TMer who's ever been checked would know this; any TM teacher (or anyone who has taken checker training) would know this. Even if the meditator *asks* to have the mantra checked, it's extremely unlikely the checker would nod to his anxiety. The checking procedure is formulated so as to *disallow* checking of the mantra (see point 23E of the checking notes). The checking procedure is designed to make the meditator comfortable with using whatever s/he remembers, morphed or otherwise. It's not impossible that if the meditator made a huge fuss, his/her initiator might be brought in to check his/her mantra, but the checker would stand on his/her head to avoid it by simply going through the regular checking procedure loops as many times as necessary in the hope that the meditator says the hell with it. The whole idea is to discourage any anxiety the meditator may have about correct pronunciation.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Bill, Contrary to what you might read, Shakti does not mean energy, as in electricity, but rather power. Shakti (power) carries none of our modern connotations of a strictly mechanistic force but rather points to what Shakta-s (shakti initiates) see as the intelligence(s) that actualize the cosmos and enact its unmanifest design. You seem to recognize that Shaktivada (shakti-ism) is a doctrine (-vada) that is quite separate from Advaita. It is a doctrine asserting that there is a universal power that manifests the cosmos and that it's actualizations are various all-constituting intelligences. Since these are intelligences, rather than insentient material forces, the further insight is that they are accessible to other intelligences (like us) and that there is a methodology for doing just this. That methodology is called Tantra and includes not only formulae for contacting these intelligences but also specific etiquettes for creating, maintaining and enhancing this contact. These intelligences are deva-s/devi-s the numinous presences that constitute and animate our body, along with our sense powers, mental operations and the functions of consciousness (chitta). All of these internal deva-s/devi-s are considered micro-processes of macro-intelligences that are massively awake and actively cognizant. They are the internal-external values that order, organize and interconnect the various subjective/objective strata of the universe. This, however, does not include Awareness (chit) which is a reality eulogized as Shiva, the auspicious One, the Presence-Awareness-Felicity that is the essence of all true identity. Sounds abstract but that's the cliff notes version for dummies like me. You may find it a mere iteration of what you already know but it never hurts of hear it again. Now I think I'll go have a beer. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Richard and Emptybill: Given my rudimentary knowledge at this point I am wondering if the both of you can clarify something. I went and looked up on Wikipedia about Sri Vidya. I thought that the basic shakti doctrine was as follows: Shiva is the static consciousness that pervades all things, while shakti represents (envisioned in feminine form) the dynamic form of consciousness. In essence, they have divided up the notion of Brahman. One is pure consciousness, static in existence, while the other is pure consciousness in its changeable phenomenal form? I thought all these divine goddesses were simply a manifestation of shakti. Is that not correct? Cheers Bill  From: richardjwilliamstexas willytex@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 3:04 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras  emptybill: All modern Western scholars of Shankara or Advaita firmly reject the claim that Adi-Shankara was the author of either Ananda-Larari or Saundarya-Lahari. Maybe so, but as TMers we are not concerned with what most Western scholars think about Shankara. It is a fact that all the Dasanami Sannyasins worship the Sri Vidya and accept the Adi Shankara as the author of the Saundarylahri. That's why at all the Ammnya Mathas founded by Shankara you will find the Sri Chakra ensconced on the mandir. Our Guru Dev was a Sri Vidya adherent and his master, Swami Krishnaanada was a Sri Vidya practitioner. So, we TMers have a direct connection to the Sringeri Matha, through Brahmananda Saraswati. Bija 'mantras', by definition, have no semantic meaning - that's why they're called 'mantras' instead of being called 'words'. If the bijas were Sanskrit words, there would be no need for a definition of them, since their meaning would be obvious to anyone who could read a Sanskrit lexicon. So, let's review: In basic TM you get the single seed sound (bija) and later the fertilizer; and you get the simple set of instructions for the correct angle to dive. So, it has now been established that at least two of the most sacred bija-mantras, out of the fifteen, contained in the Saundaryalahari, are in fact, TM bija-mantras. Read more: Subject: Guru Dev and Mantrayana Author: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: December 17, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ykp6rhs On the origin of the TM bija mantras: Bija mantras issued by TM are ''Sri Vidya'' bija mantras. To be fair, I won't go into what they are, but if one listens to all TM mantras, except for 2, they are 2 or 3 syllable, and this is a very important component of the technique... Subject: Re: Guru Dev and Sri Vidya Author: Billy Smith Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: April 22, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ye8my2 You are getting warmer when it comes to understanding TM's origins with your posts regarding the Shankaracharya tradition and its practice of Srividya... Subject: Re: TM: Siva Sutra Author: James Duffy
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Hi Bhairitu. What is the JyotishList all about? Cheers Bill From: Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras On 07/14/2011 10:43 PM, Ravi Yogi wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: You have opened a whole can of worms here. I've watched for years different tantra school argue over whether the beej mantras should have use the ng ending or the m ending. They have slightly different effects as far as resonance patterns go. And Indians given their nature will argue passionately over this, making the arguments on FFL look very wimpy (I'm sure Ravi will agree). Bhairitu - I have to plead ignorance in spite of being born a Brahmin, you and others seem to be more well versed and yeah lot of Indians for sure. However give me some Sanskrit slokas and I will chant it perfectly, comes naturally to me. I wasn't talking about the knowledge but how Indians love to argue. They really went at it on one forum over the ng and m endings. And just wander over to the JyotishList on Yahoo. There is often a brawl going on there. ;-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Yep, though even that may be misleading since becoming familiar with has different implications for different people. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert babajii_99@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: [...] Oh wait, TM is effortless... Did MMY lie or is there something to be learned from the realization that attempting to remember a specific pronunciation from 38 years ago is often extremely difficult? L There is no need to remember the mantra with a specific pronunciation...that's not it at all...allow it to unfold naturally, and if you can't remember specific prounciation, don't worry about it... A mantra is just a vehicle for transcending thought... We pick up the mantra to transcend the mantra... The objective of TM is to become familiar with the process of transcending thought, and the experience of pure consciousness when thought is transcended... That's all there is to it; it's not necessary to complicate the procedure in any way... Keep it as simple as possible... TM teaches how to be 'effortless'...so when you find that you are sliding into effort, just let go, and be effortless... R.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:50 PM, sparaig wrote: One of the pitfalls, or one of the most important aspects of the difference between TM and what you think is proper? Name and form: namarupa. But different states of the nervous system might lead to different perceptions about the mantra. I am of the opinion that the mantra, no matter what apparent morphing it goes through, remains the same mantra and that these apparent changes in it are due to the changes in the nervous system that happens to be thinking it. YMMV of course. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Sal, we always miss you when you are away! From: Sal Sunshine salsunsh...@lisco.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:49:58 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras On Jul 16, 2011, at 11:38 PM, raunchydog wrote: Checking doesn't mean checking the mantra. The purpose of checking is to give the right *experience* of meditation, which is effortless meditation. Other than point 23E, the only time an initiator explicitly checks the pronunciation of a mantra is individually with new meditators after the third night of checking. The wording in Maharishi's checking notes is brilliant and in this instance very delicate so as not to make a big deal out of it or risk disturbing the innocence and naturalness of meditation: And you remember your mantra? [Assumes everything is AOK, but whether yes or no, it doesn't matter.] Whisper softly what you feel it is. [This is so cool. You engage his quiet feeling not his noisy intellect by saying, What do you *think* it is?] If the mantra was wrong, you just reassure him it is all right now. Anything that creates doubt and confusion about meditation or pronunciation of the mantra is the antithesis of the checking procedure and effortless meditation. What would be even cooler would be if someone whispered ka-ching! or something similar as their mantra. :) And then just waited to see what the checker would do. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
I'm not sure whether native speakers of English perceive the vowels in pairs like 'fill'-'feel' or 'shit'-'sheat' different vowels altogether. I think been asking it before but can't remember what the answer was - if any. Because Finnish has only so called pure vowels as does Sanskrit, except perhaps for the short a-sound in Sanskrit, Finns tend to pronounce the short and long i-sounds (not sure if that's oxymoronic from the POV of a native speaker) similarly save the length, and mostly ignore the several reduced vowels of (e.g. standard American) English. Just listened carefully, in Google translator, for instance 'shit' and 'sheat'. The vowels are surprisingly different from each other. In 'shit' it almost sounded to me like 'shet'. Most Finns (and e.g. Italians, I believe, and perhaps many others) would pronounce that like 'sheat', but shortening the vowel. (If that difference is not meaningful in your own language, you can only hear it if you consciously concentrate on hearing it. That's true for most people, I guess...) So, it seems to me biija-mantras that contain a short i-sound, might be somewhat tough for native speakers of English to pronounce exactly as in Sanskrit. Listening to 'shiva' in GT sounded to me almost like 'sheeva', so if a native speaker of English tries to pronounce the so called pure i-vowel of Sanskrit, it might naturally tend to become longer as it is in Sanskrit. But that almost certainly is not a big deal...
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@... wrote: I'm not sure whether native speakers of English perceive the vowels in pairs like 'fill'-'feel' or 'shit'-'sheat' different vowels altogether. I think been asking it before but can't remember what the answer was - if any. In Dutch doubled vowels almost always take the 'long' pronunciation, whereas single vowels almost always take the 'short' pronunciation. Thus 'meer' (sea) is pronounced like the English 'mare' and 'room' (cream) is pronounced like the city Rome.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: It's just too easy to forget that we are French kissing the Grim Reaper with every breath. You get my award for the most gloom 'n doom wrap-ups Empty. I've only just learned to cope with read it and weep - now this? Whatever next?
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shukra69 shukra69@... wrote: one reason why you dont discuss the mantra is you are creating a lot of doubt and confusion in some people reading this which is what happened to you when you saw TM mantras written, it just shouldn't happen. Maybe you're right, but I'd say this. I came back to TM after a hiatus of many years. I'd acquired pretty much the full gamut of advanced techniques, but couldn't quite be sure of the combos. As a result I have been using TM 3.0 instead of 5.0. But my reading the recent post encouraged me to upgrade, and I must say I am a very happy bunny as a result.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister no_reply@... wrote: I'm not sure whether native speakers of English perceive the vowels in pairs like 'fill'-'feel' or 'shit'-'sheat' different vowels altogether. I think been asking it before but can't remember what the answer was - if any. Most do. Some regional accents may not make a distinction between certain such pairs (can't think of an example at the moment), but they would between other pairs. Dictionaries certainly make the distinction, e.g.: Main Entry: fill Pronunciation: fil (short e) Main Entry: feel Pronunciation: fçl (long e--the diacritic may not come through; the e has a bar over it) snip So, it seems to me biija-mantras that contain a short i-sound, might be somewhat tough for native speakers of English to pronounce exactly as in Sanskrit. Listening to 'shiva' in GT sounded to me almost like 'sheeva', so if a native speaker of English tries to pronounce the so called pure i-vowel of Sanskrit, it might naturally tend to become longer as it is in Sanskrit. The English slang word shiv (knife) is pronounced with a short i. But shiva is usually pronounced by English speakers as sheeva. If you told them it should be pronounced like shiv, they wouldn't have any trouble making the change. Main Entry: shiv (slang word for knife) Pronunciation: shiv Dictionary says shiva can be pronounced either way, shee-va or shih-va: Main Entry: Shiva Pronunciation: shi-v#601; (upside-down e for a), shç- (e with a bar over it) Don't know if that helps any...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Is there copyright by the TMO on the checking notes or anything else that has been discussed relating to mantras and the way they are used? Just wondering.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: snip One POV worth considering is that since TM does not generally oppose the mantra changing in sound or quality or speed, etc., ones mantra could change and they would not remember the original sound they were given, but the morphed version. I know mine morphed so that I had to be re-told it on checking several times... As much as anythign else I suspect that that was a nod to your anxiety, rather than an essential part of checking... He seems to think that it's a routine part of checking for the meditator to tell the checker his/her mantra, whereupon the checker corrects it if necessary. Not the case. Any TMer who's ever been checked would know this; any TM teacher (or anyone who has taken checker training) would know this. Even if the meditator *asks* to have the mantra checked, it's extremely unlikely the checker would nod to his anxiety. The checking procedure is formulated so as to *disallow* checking of the mantra (see point 23E of the checking notes). The checking procedure is designed to make the meditator comfortable with using whatever s/he remembers, morphed or otherwise. It's not impossible that if the meditator made a huge fuss, his/her initiator might be brought in to check his/her mantra, but the checker would stand on his/her head to avoid it by simply going through the regular checking procedure loops as many times as necessary in the hope that the meditator says the hell with it. The whole idea is to discourage any anxiety the meditator may have about correct pronunciation.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shukra69 shukra69@... wrote: one reason why you dont discuss the mantra is you are creating a lot of doubt and confusion in some people reading this which is what happened to you when you saw TM mantras written, it just shouldn't happen. Bingo !
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Hmmm. How about: Be brave and gossip with death. Just whisper Please don't annihilate me. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, PaliGap compost1uk@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: It's just too easy to forget that we are French kissing the Grim Reaper with every breath. You get my award for the most gloom 'n doom wrap-ups Empty. I've only just learned to cope with read it and weep - now this? Whatever next?
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shukra69 shukra69@ wrote: one reason why you dont discuss the mantra is you are creating a lot of doubt and confusion in some people reading this which is what happened to you when you saw TM mantras written, it just shouldn't happen. Bingo ! Per Bob's question, that's two votes for sutra (Every question is the perfect opportunity for the answer we have already prepared, and you'd better settle for it.) Others prefer tantra (WTF? I sense some cognitive disson- ance here between what I was told by one 'authority' and what I'm being told by another. Neat! I wonder which is more valuable, or if either is.) Predilection.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
I've got trantra on the brain. I read that last comment as predickalicktion and I'm like: wha? L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shukra69 shukra69@ wrote: one reason why you dont discuss the mantra is you are creating a lot of doubt and confusion in some people reading this which is what happened to you when you saw TM mantras written, it just shouldn't happen. Bingo ! Per Bob's question, that's two votes for sutra (Every question is the perfect opportunity for the answer we have already prepared, and you'd better settle for it.) Others prefer tantra (WTF? I sense some cognitive disson- ance here between what I was told by one 'authority' and what I'm being told by another. Neat! I wonder which is more valuable, or if either is.) Predilection.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
That what it says in the checking notes of D.J. Wahl Ghoul. Apparently he can't keep his sources separate. Still got a doubt that he never learned any of it? No wonder he won't give out the basic names of his initiator and his course(s). But I am impressed. Apparently Namkhai Norbu's webinars now give modified instructions in TM. It's just no longer the same old vajra-japa you seen in the Buddhist Tantras. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: snip One POV worth considering is that since TM does not generally oppose the mantra changing in sound or quality or speed, etc., ones mantra could change and they would not remember the original sound they were given, but the morphed version. I know mine morphed so that I had to be re-told it on checking several times... As much as anythign else I suspect that that was a nod to your anxiety, rather than an essential part of checking... He seems to think that it's a routine part of checking for the meditator to tell the checker his/her mantra, whereupon the checker corrects it if necessary. Not the case. Any TMer who's ever been checked would know this; any TM teacher (or anyone who has taken checker training) would know this. Even if the meditator *asks* to have the mantra checked, it's extremely unlikely the checker would nod to his anxiety. The checking procedure is formulated so as to *disallow* checking of the mantra (see point 23E of the checking notes). The checking procedure is designed to make the meditator comfortable with using whatever s/he remembers, morphed or otherwise. It's not impossible that if the meditator made a huge fuss, his/her initiator might be brought in to check his/her mantra, but the checker would stand on his/her head to avoid it by simply going through the regular checking procedure loops as many times as necessary in the hope that the meditator says the hell with it. The whole idea is to discourage any anxiety the meditator may have about correct pronunciation.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Who did you learn shaktipat from? The reason I ask is I did learn it from my tantra guru and it is very definitely a transference of energy. Something I think most people who have learned and performed would agree with. On 07/15/2011 08:00 PM, emptybill wrote: Only in my younger days. I concluded that people deserve something better than that. I found them wanting to attribute more Reality to me than I really could claim. It was an easy way to attribute too much to divine power or God's grace because someone had a (temporary) connection to the ocean of power. It's just too easy to forget that we are French kissing the Grim Reaper with every breath. …… --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: On 07/14/2011 07:53 PM, emptybill wrote: This could be a duplicate Yahoo post or maybe not. Sorry but no troth with Yahoo. Bill, Contrary to what you might read, Shakti does not mean energy, as in electricity, but rather power. Empty, have you ever given shaktipat? To subscribe, send a message to: fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: fairfieldlife-dig...@yahoogroups.com fairfieldlife-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: fairfieldlife-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@... wrote: That what it says in the checking notes of D.J. Wahl Ghoul. Apparently he can't keep his sources separate. Still got a doubt that he never learned any of it? Not moi. That's been clear for some time. No wonder he won't give out the basic names of his initiator and his course(s). But I am impressed. Apparently Namkhai Norbu's webinars now give modified instructions in TM. It's just no longer the same old vajra-japa you seen in the Buddhist Tantras. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: snip One POV worth considering is that since TM does not generally oppose the mantra changing in sound or quality or speed, etc., ones mantra could change and they would not remember the original sound they were given, but the morphed version. I know mine morphed so that I had to be re-told it on checking several times... As much as anythign else I suspect that that was a nod to your anxiety, rather than an essential part of checking... He seems to think that it's a routine part of checking for the meditator to tell the checker his/her mantra, whereupon the checker corrects it if necessary. Not the case. Any TMer who's ever been checked would know this; any TM teacher (or anyone who has taken checker training) would know this. Even if the meditator *asks* to have the mantra checked, it's extremely unlikely the checker would nod to his anxiety. The checking procedure is formulated so as to *disallow* checking of the mantra (see point 23E of the checking notes). The checking procedure is designed to make the meditator comfortable with using whatever s/he remembers, morphed or otherwise. It's not impossible that if the meditator made a huge fuss, his/her initiator might be brought in to check his/her mantra, but the checker would stand on his/her head to avoid it by simply going through the regular checking procedure loops as many times as necessary in the hope that the meditator says the hell with it. The whole idea is to discourage any anxiety the meditator may have about correct pronunciation.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: That what it says in the checking notes of D.J. Wahl Ghoul. Apparently he can't keep his sources separate. Still got a doubt that he never learned any of it? Not moi. That's been clear for some time. All his various smoking-gun missteps along these lines are just the kinds of things someone on the outside looking in would be likely to assume about how the technique is taught and practiced. It makes perfect sense for such a person to figure that something called checking in the TM context would of course involve having one's mantra checked, either as part of the routine or upon request. He may even be remembering point 23E from having read the checking notes and erroneously thinking that's what it refers to. No wonder he won't give out the basic names of his initiator and his course(s). But I am impressed. Apparently Namkhai Norbu's webinars now give modified instructions in TM. It's just no longer the same old vajra-japa you seen in the Buddhist Tantras. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: snip One POV worth considering is that since TM does not generally oppose the mantra changing in sound or quality or speed, etc., ones mantra could change and they would not remember the original sound they were given, but the morphed version. I know mine morphed so that I had to be re-told it on checking several times... As much as anythign else I suspect that that was a nod to your anxiety, rather than an essential part of checking... He seems to think that it's a routine part of checking for the meditator to tell the checker his/her mantra, whereupon the checker corrects it if necessary. Not the case. Any TMer who's ever been checked would know this; any TM teacher (or anyone who has taken checker training) would know this. Even if the meditator *asks* to have the mantra checked, it's extremely unlikely the checker would nod to his anxiety. The checking procedure is formulated so as to *disallow* checking of the mantra (see point 23E of the checking notes). The checking procedure is designed to make the meditator comfortable with using whatever s/he remembers, morphed or otherwise. It's not impossible that if the meditator made a huge fuss, his/her initiator might be brought in to check his/her mantra, but the checker would stand on his/her head to avoid it by simply going through the regular checking procedure loops as many times as necessary in the hope that the meditator says the hell with it. The whole idea is to discourage any anxiety the meditator may have about correct pronunciation.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
As a (mere) checker I certainly had no access to anyone's mantras, let alone their correct pronunciation, at any rate! :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: That what it says in the checking notes of D.J. Wahl Ghoul. Apparently he can't keep his sources separate. Still got a doubt that he never learned any of it? Not moi. That's been clear for some time. All his various smoking-gun missteps along these lines are just the kinds of things someone on the outside looking in would be likely to assume about how the technique is taught and practiced. It makes perfect sense for such a person to figure that something called checking in the TM context would of course involve having one's mantra checked, either as part of the routine or upon request. He may even be remembering point 23E from having read the checking notes and erroneously thinking that's what it refers to. No wonder he won't give out the basic names of his initiator and his course(s). But I am impressed. Apparently Namkhai Norbu's webinars now give modified instructions in TM. It's just no longer the same old vajra-japa you seen in the Buddhist Tantras. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: snip One POV worth considering is that since TM does not generally oppose the mantra changing in sound or quality or speed, etc., ones mantra could change and they would not remember the original sound they were given, but the morphed version. I know mine morphed so that I had to be re-told it on checking several times... As much as anythign else I suspect that that was a nod to your anxiety, rather than an essential part of checking... He seems to think that it's a routine part of checking for the meditator to tell the checker his/her mantra, whereupon the checker corrects it if necessary. Not the case. Any TMer who's ever been checked would know this; any TM teacher (or anyone who has taken checker training) would know this. Even if the meditator *asks* to have the mantra checked, it's extremely unlikely the checker would nod to his anxiety. The checking procedure is formulated so as to *disallow* checking of the mantra (see point 23E of the checking notes). The checking procedure is designed to make the meditator comfortable with using whatever s/he remembers, morphed or otherwise. It's not impossible that if the meditator made a huge fuss, his/her initiator might be brought in to check his/her mantra, but the checker would stand on his/her head to avoid it by simply going through the regular checking procedure loops as many times as necessary in the hope that the meditator says the hell with it. The whole idea is to discourage any anxiety the meditator may have about correct pronunciation.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill emptybill@ wrote: That what it says in the checking notes of D.J. Wahl Ghoul. Apparently he can't keep his sources separate. Still got a doubt that he never learned any of it? Not moi. That's been clear for some time. All his various smoking-gun missteps along these lines are just the kinds of things someone on the outside looking in would be likely to assume about how the technique is taught and practiced. It makes perfect sense for such a person to figure that something called checking in the TM context would of course involve having one's mantra checked, either as part of the routine or upon request. He may even be remembering point 23E from having read the checking notes and erroneously thinking that's what it refers to. Checking doesn't mean checking the mantra. The purpose of checking is to give the right *experience* of meditation, which is effortless meditation. Other than point 23E, the only time an initiator explicitly checks the pronunciation of a mantra is individually with new meditators after the third night of checking. The wording in Maharishi's checking notes is brilliant and in this instance very delicate so as not to make a big deal out of it or risk disturbing the innocence and naturalness of meditation: And you remember your mantra? [Assumes everything is AOK, but whether yes or no, it doesn't matter.] Whisper softly what you feel it is. [This is so cool. You engage his quiet feeling not his noisy intellect by saying, What do you *think* it is?] If the mantra was wrong, you just reassure him it is all right now. Anything that creates doubt and confusion about meditation or pronunciation of the mantra is the antithesis of the checking procedure and effortless meditation. No wonder he won't give out the basic names of his initiator and his course(s). But I am impressed. Apparently Namkhai Norbu's webinars now give modified instructions in TM. It's just no longer the same old vajra-japa you seen in the Buddhist Tantras. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: snip One POV worth considering is that since TM does not generally oppose the mantra changing in sound or quality or speed, etc., ones mantra could change and they would not remember the original sound they were given, but the morphed version. I know mine morphed so that I had to be re-told it on checking several times... As much as anythign else I suspect that that was a nod to your anxiety, rather than an essential part of checking... He seems to think that it's a routine part of checking for the meditator to tell the checker his/her mantra, whereupon the checker corrects it if necessary. Not the case. Any TMer who's ever been checked would know this; any TM teacher (or anyone who has taken checker training) would know this. Even if the meditator *asks* to have the mantra checked, it's extremely unlikely the checker would nod to his anxiety. The checking procedure is formulated so as to *disallow* checking of the mantra (see point 23E of the checking notes). The checking procedure is designed to make the meditator comfortable with using whatever s/he remembers, morphed or otherwise. It's not impossible that if the meditator made a huge fuss, his/her initiator might be brought in to check his/her mantra, but the checker would stand on his/her head to avoid it by simply going through the regular checking procedure loops as many times as necessary in the hope that the meditator says the hell with it. The whole idea is to discourage any anxiety the meditator may have about correct pronunciation.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
On Jul 16, 2011, at 11:38 PM, raunchydog wrote: Checking doesn't mean checking the mantra. The purpose of checking is to give the right *experience* of meditation, which is effortless meditation. Other than point 23E, the only time an initiator explicitly checks the pronunciation of a mantra is individually with new meditators after the third night of checking. The wording in Maharishi's checking notes is brilliant and in this instance very delicate so as not to make a big deal out of it or risk disturbing the innocence and naturalness of meditation: And you remember your mantra? [Assumes everything is AOK, but whether yes or no, it doesn't matter.] Whisper softly what you feel it is. [This is so cool. You engage his quiet feeling not his noisy intellect by saying, What do you *think* it is?] If the mantra was wrong, you just reassure him it is all right now. Anything that creates doubt and confusion about meditation or pronunciation of the mantra is the antithesis of the checking procedure and effortless meditation. What would be even cooler would be if someone whispered ka-ching! or something similar as their mantra. :) And then just waited to see what the checker would do. Sal
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
On Jul 14, 2011, at 9:50 PM, sparaig wrote: One of the pitfalls, or one of the most important aspects of the difference between TM and what you think is proper? Name and form: namarupa.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Thank you so much Emptybill. I wonder if you or Richard might be able to answer the following two questions. 1) Do Hindus who adhere to the Advaita tradition consider Shankara a shakta? 2) Do we know whether GuruDev and MMY thought of their particular strand of Advaita as being fully within the shakti tradition? In short, would both men consider themselves, and Shankara, as shaktas? Cheers Bill From: emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:53 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras This could be a duplicate Yahoo post or maybe not. Sorry but no troth with Yahoo. Bill, Contrary to what you might read, Shakti does not mean energy, as in electricity, but rather power. Shakti(power) carries none of our modern connotations of a strictly mechanistic force but rather points to what Shakta-s (shakti initiates) see as the intelligence(s) that actualize the cosmos and enact its unmanifest design. You seem to recognize that Shaktivada (shakti-ism) is a doctrine (-vada) that is quite separate from Advaita. It is a doctrine asserting that there is a universal power that manifests the cosmos and that it's actualizations are various all-constituting intelligences. Since these are intelligences, rather than insentient material forces, the further insight is that they are accessible to other intelligences (like us) and that there is a methodology for doing just this. That methodology is called Tantra and includes not only formulae for contacting these intelligences but also specific etiquettes for creating, maintaining and enhancing this contact. These intelligences are deva-s/devi-s … the numinous presences that constitute and animate our body, along with our sense powers, mental operations and the functions of consciousness (chitta). All of these internal deva-s/devi-s are considered micro-processes of macro-intelligences that are massively awake and actively cognizant. They are the internal-external values that order, organize and interconnect the various subjective/objective strata of the universe. This, however, does not include Awareness (chit) which is a reality eulogized as Shiva, the auspicious One, the Presence-Awareness-Felicity that is the essence of all true identity. Sounds abstract but that's the cliff notes version for dummies like me. You may find it a mere iteration of what you already know but it never hurts of hear it again. Now I think I'll go have a beer.…… --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Richard and Emptybill: Given my rudimentary knowledge at this point I am wondering if the both of you can clarify something. I went and looked up on Wikipedia about Sri Vidya. I thought that the basic shakti doctrine was as follows: Shiva is the static consciousness that pervades all things, while shakti represents (envisioned in feminine form) the dynamic form of consciousness. In essence, they have divided up the notion of Brahman. One is pure consciousness, static in existence, while the other is pure consciousness in its changeable phenomenal form? I thought all these divine goddesses were simply a manifestation of shakti. Is that not correct? Cheers Bill Â
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Nab, I do know how to pronounce my mantra, at least as it was told to me. But what is here is different. Excuse my curiosity Cheers Bill PS- My training was, after all, 11 years ago!! Stop this nonsense. Either you listen to what the teacher says, or you choose to do someting else. Simple. Many people believe that they MUST start thinking their mantra exactly the same way every time. I think MY decided that if they didn't intuit from what they were told that this was a bit anal, that it was counter-productive to make the hints any stronger than they already are. But, I'll just say that after nearly 40 years of practicing TM, it takes quite a bit of effort sometimes to remember exactly how my mantra was pronounced when I was given it. Oh wait, TM is effortless... Did MMY lie or is there something to be learned from the realization that attempting to remember a specific pronunciation from 38 years ago is often extremely difficult? L There is no need to remember the mantra with a specific pronunciation...that's not it at all...allow it to unfold naturally, and if you can't remember specific prounciation, don't worry about it... A mantra is just a vehicle for transcending thought... We pick up the mantra to transcend the mantra... The objective of TM is to become familiar with the process of transcending thought, and the experience of pure consciousness when thought is transcended... That's all there is to it; it's not necessary to complicate the procedure in any way... Keep it as simple as possible... TM teaches how to be 'effortless'...so when you find that you are sliding into effort, just let go, and be effortless... R.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Thank you so much Richard. I am learning a great deal from you and a number of other people on the forum. I asked both you, and Emptybill, two questions over on the e-mail I sent from Emptybill's reply. If you have the time please read it and see if you can cast some light on those two questions. Thank you again! Cheers Bill From: richardjwilliamstexas willy...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 8:27 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras William Parkinson: Shiva is the static consciousness that pervades all things, while shakti represents (envisioned in feminine form) the dynamic form of consciousness... The answer lies in the relationship of the Sri Vidya tradition and Kashmere Saivism. In the Shankaracharya tradition, Shankara was born at Kaladi, where he was a sort of child prodigy linguist, at an early age. Shankara went to study with Gaudapada, and then subsequently travelled to Kashi, and then to the Upper Kashi, where he founded the Jyotir Math and composed his commentary on 'Vedanta Sutra' and 'Bhagavad Gita'. Shankara then traveled to Kashmere where he got the Sri Yantra and took it to Karnataka where he placed it on the altar and called the place Sringeri, after the Shakti. It was at Sringeri that Shankara composed the 'Ode to the South Facing Form' and the 'Saundarylahari'. According to Theos Bernard, Kashmere Saivism teaches that conciousness alternates between two phases, rest and action. You can easily see the relation to TM practice when you consider that this is almost exactly what MMY said at Squaw Valley! The phase of transcendental rest is called 'Pralaya' in Sanskrit, which has no first beginning, therefore no primal cause. The world of matter is only another form of conciousness. The Vedanta doctrine contends that there is only one ultimate reality which never changes; therefore the manifest world is an 'appearance' only, Maya. Kashmere Saivism contends that there is only one reality, but it has *two aspects*. The manifestation, Maya, is real. This is based on the argument that the effect cannot be different from its cause. However, according to the Siva Sutra, human logic can never construct an unassailable monism; the final proof can be had only by the experience of yogic samadhi, attained through mantric meditation. Centering - An excerpt from the 'Bhairava Tantra', translated by Swami by Laksmanjoo: 7. Devi, imagine the Sanskrit letters in these honey-filled foci of awareness, first as letters, then more subtly as sounds, then as most subtle feeling. Then, leaving them aside, be free. 14. Bathe in the center of sound, as in the continuous sound of a waterfall. Or, by putting fingers in ears, hear the sound of sounds. 19. Intone a sound audibly, then less and less audible as feeling deepens into this silent harmony. Read more: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/centering.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Hi Rob. What I found interesting in the pronunciation was simply this: books on mantra meditation that I have state very emphatically that the mantra must be pronounced absolutely clearly and correctly. I assume because they believe that the mantra is some sort of sonic representation, if not sonic manifestation, of the deity. Yet in TM we are told the mantra might will change as we use it. And the mantra should ideally be a faint thought--not something clear and strong in our minds.This was part of my interest in this varient ways of saying the mantras. Cheers Bill From: Robert babajii...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 9:29 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Nab, I do know how to pronounce my mantra, at least as it was told to me. But what is here is different. Excuse my curiosity Cheers Bill PS- My training was, after all, 11 years ago!! Stop this nonsense. Either you listen to what the teacher says, or you choose to do someting else. Simple. Many people believe that they MUST start thinking their mantra exactly the same way every time. I think MY decided that if they didn't intuit from what they were told that this was a bit anal, that it was counter-productive to make the hints any stronger than they already are. But, I'll just say that after nearly 40 years of practicing TM, it takes quite a bit of effort sometimes to remember exactly how my mantra was pronounced when I was given it. Oh wait, TM is effortless... Did MMY lie or is there something to be learned from the realization that attempting to remember a specific pronunciation from 38 years ago is often extremely difficult? L There is no need to remember the mantra with a specific pronunciation...that's not it at all...allow it to unfold naturally, and if you can't remember specific prounciation, don't worry about it... A mantra is just a vehicle for transcending thought... We pick up the mantra to transcend the mantra... The objective of TM is to become familiar with the process of transcending thought, and the experience of pure consciousness when thought is transcended... That's all there is to it; it's not necessary to complicate the procedure in any way... Keep it as simple as possible... TM teaches how to be 'effortless'...so when you find that you are sliding into effort, just let go, and be effortless... R.
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Parkinson Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 11:48 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Hi Rob. What I found interesting in the pronunciation was simply this: books on mantra meditation that I have state very emphatically that the mantra must be pronounced absolutely clearly and correctly. I assume because they believe that the mantra is some sort of sonic representation, if not sonic manifestation, of the deity. Yet in TM we are told the mantra might will change as we use it. And the mantra should ideally be a faint thought--not something clear and strong in our minds.This was part of my interest in this varient ways of saying the mantras. The TM instructions explicit advise NOT trying to think or pronounce the mantra clearly: “Mental repetition is not a clear pronunciation; just a faint idea.”
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Exactly Rick. Which is not what some mantra works suggest. That is what I think is interesting. If these mantras are the 'sonic representations' of the deity, one would think they should be spoken, or thought inside, clearly and correctly. If that is so, then what are we to make of our TM way of not thinking it but faintly? What did MMY think of these mantras? Are they symbolic, or merely tools to allow us to go inside? Cheers Bill From: Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:32 AM Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras From:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Parkinson Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 11:48 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Hi Rob. What I found interesting in the pronunciation was simply this: books on mantra meditation that I have state very emphatically that the mantra must be pronounced absolutely clearly and correctly. I assume because they believe that the mantra is some sort of sonic representation, if not sonic manifestation, of the deity. Yet in TM we are told the mantra might will change as we use it. And the mantra should ideally be a faint thought--not something clear and strong in our minds.This was part of my interest in this varient ways of saying the mantras. The TM instructions explicit advise NOT trying to think or pronounce the mantra clearly: “Mental repetition is not a clear pronunciation; just a faint idea.”
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
On 07/14/2011 10:43 PM, Ravi Yogi wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: You have opened a whole can of worms here. I've watched for years different tantra school argue over whether the beej mantras should have use the ng ending or the m ending. They have slightly different effects as far as resonance patterns go. And Indians given their nature will argue passionately over this, making the arguments on FFL look very wimpy (I'm sure Ravi will agree). Bhairitu - I have to plead ignorance in spite of being born a Brahmin, you and others seem to be more well versed and yeah lot of Indians for sure. However give me some Sanskrit slokas and I will chant it perfectly, comes naturally to me. I wasn't talking about the knowledge but how Indians love to argue. They really went at it on one forum over the ng and m endings. And just wander over to the JyotishList on Yahoo. There is often a brawl going on there. ;-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
On 07/14/2011 07:53 PM, emptybill wrote: This could be a duplicate Yahoo post or maybe not. Sorry but no troth with Yahoo. Bill, Contrary to what you might read, Shakti does not mean energy, as in electricity, but rather power. Empty, have you ever given shaktipat?
RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Parkinson Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 1:22 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Exactly Rick. Which is not what some mantra works suggest. That is what I think is interesting. If these mantras are the 'sonic representations' of the deity, one would think they should be spoken, or thought inside, clearly and correctly. If that is so, then what are we to make of our TM way of not thinking it but faintly? What did MMY think of these mantras? Are they symbolic, or merely tools to allow us to go inside? Cheers Bill Maharishi felt (old Rishikesh TTC tape I heard) that the mantras were a way to attune oneself to the deity, and that that was accomplished by transcending with them, not remaining on the gross level. From: Rick Archer r...@searchsummit.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:32 AM Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Parkinson Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 11:48 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Hi Rob. What I found interesting in the pronunciation was simply this: books on mantra meditation that I have state very emphatically that the mantra must be pronounced absolutely clearly and correctly. I assume because they believe that the mantra is some sort of sonic representation, if not sonic manifestation, of the deity. Yet in TM we are told the mantra might will change as we use it. And the mantra should ideally be a faint thought--not something clear and strong in our minds.This was part of my interest in this varient ways of saying the mantras. The TM instructions explicit advise NOT trying to think or pronounce the mantra clearly: “Mental repetition is not a clear pronunciation; just a faint idea.” _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3766 - Release Date: 07/15/11
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
I like to use the workability criterion. Everything else is crap. But the Ship of Theseus thought experiment has been helpful to me in mantra and related questions such as the puja. For example, (ref. an actual case): - somebody mentioned to MMY that he had replaced Guru Dev's picture with a pic of Jesus. We can continue per the Ship of Theseus model and replace this and that until perhaps, we are left with mantras one can get out of a book. In my experience, the most important factors are a. technique done properly, and b. the Shakti. My TM mantra has a distinct perceptible amount of Shakti, not possessed by mantras I've received from other (non TMO) Gurus. So go figure. ... SHIP OF THESEUS from Wiki: According to Greek legend as reported by Plutarch, The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned [from Crete] had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same. Plutarch, Theseus[1] Plutarch thus questions whether the ship would remain the same if it were entirely replaced, piece by piece. Centuries later, the philosopher Thomas Hobbes introduced a further puzzle, wondering: what would happen if the original planks were gathered up after they were replaced, and used to build a second ship.[2] Which ship, if either, is the original Ship of Theseus? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Parkinson Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 1:22 PM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Exactly Rick. Which is not what some mantra works suggest. That is what I think is interesting. If these mantras are the 'sonic representations' of the deity, one would think they should be spoken, or thought inside, clearly and correctly. If that is so, then what are we to make of our TM way of not thinking it but faintly? What did MMY think of these mantras? Are they symbolic, or merely tools to allow us to go inside? Cheers Bill Maharishi felt (old Rishikesh TTC tape I heard) that the mantras were a way to attune oneself to the deity, and that that was accomplished by transcending with them, not remaining on the gross level. From: Rick Archer rick@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:32 AM Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Parkinson Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 11:48 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Hi Rob. What I found interesting in the pronunciation was simply this: books on mantra meditation that I have state very emphatically that the mantra must be pronounced absolutely clearly and correctly. I assume because they believe that the mantra is some sort of sonic representation, if not sonic manifestation, of the deity. Yet in TM we are told the mantra might will change as we use it. And the mantra should ideally be a faint thought--not something clear and strong in our minds.This was part of my interest in this varient ways of saying the mantras. The TM instructions explicit advise NOT trying to think or pronounce the mantra clearly: âMental repetition is not a clear pronunciation; just a faint idea.â _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3766 - Release Date: 07/15/11
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Yifu yifuxero@... wrote: SHIP OF THESEUS from Wiki: According to Greek legend as reported by Plutarch, The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned [from Crete] had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same. Plutarch, Theseus[1] Plutarch thus questions whether the ship would remain the same if it were entirely replaced, piece by piece. Centuries later, the philosopher Thomas Hobbes introduced a further puzzle, wondering: what would happen if the original planks were gathered up after they were replaced, and used to build a second ship.[2] Which ship, if either, is the original Ship of Theseus? ;-) Good question! And if we don't even understand what makes for the identity of a 'thing', how are we to understand the identity of that which is closest to our heart, our selves? It is said that every material part of our body is replaced over so many years. So every material element of me-now has changed from, say me-in-1970 (one might suppose). Now as a thought experiment (for materialists), if it were possible to re-combine the set of material elements that comprised me-in-1970, who would exist? Two of me? if they met up in the pub for a pint or two, just who would be looking at who? Or is it just that identity is inexplicable under the assumption of materialism?
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Hi Rob. What I found interesting in the pronunciation was simply this: books on mantra meditation that I have state very emphatically that the mantra must be pronounced absolutely clearly and correctly. I assume because they believe that the mantra is some sort of sonic representation, if not sonic manifestation, of the deity. Yet in TM we are told the mantra might will change as we use it. And the mantra should ideally be a faint thought--not something clear and strong in our minds.This was part of my interest in this varient ways of saying the mantras.  I don't know if this is the ideal or just what happens for many people. Setting up an ideal certainly sets one up to add effort. Also, see my comment to Vaj: as the nervous system changes during meditation, the perception of the mantra may change as well. Does this mean the mantra changed, or only that the perception changed? How can you tell? Insomuch as TM is about rest, then worrying about such things is counter restful and therefore counter TM. And, it is easy to make the case that Pure Consciousness is the most restful (least stressed) state of the nervous system: stress interferes with the ability of the pre-frontal cortex to moderate the activity of the rest of the brain. During TM, the signs of restful alertness (high coherent alpha EEG) become very great, in the pre-frontal cortex AND between the pre-frontal cortex and the parts of the brain that generally don't have that good a connection to the pre-frontal cortex during stress. Anything that you do that interferes with this resting state (e.g. being judgmental about the strict pronunciation of the mantra) is going to be detrimental to the rest gained during TM and subsequently to the long-term effects outside of TM. Another way of looking at things is to consider the neural-feedback model that MUM researchers have proposed for how TM works: the effortless introduction of the mantra helps set up an inhibitory feedback loop in the thalamus which reduces the likelihood of sensory info passing throughout the brain. This includes the sensory info from our external senses as well as the internal thalimic-cortical loops we associate with thought, imagination, feelings, etc. This leaves the brain in a state of only optimizing its own internal state. Attempts to control the pronunciation of the mantra involve larger, higher-order functioning of the brain which tends to reduce the localization of the inhibitory effect. Note that this inhibitory effect doesn't have to be profound (and probably shouldn't be!). Meditators can respond to novel outside sensory input. Their brains still send signals to the heart to keep beating. They are not bound into this no-thought state, and when optimization activity starts to interfere with the inhibitory loop they are drawn outwards into normalish waking state where they perceive thoughts which signals them to start the process all over again. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@... wrote: From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William Parkinson Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 11:48 AM To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Hi Rob. What I found interesting in the pronunciation was simply this: books on mantra meditation that I have state very emphatically that the mantra must be pronounced absolutely clearly and correctly. I assume because they believe that the mantra is some sort of sonic representation, if not sonic manifestation, of the deity. Yet in TM we are told the mantra might will change as we use it. And the mantra should ideally be a faint thought--not something clear and strong in our minds.This was part of my interest in this varient ways of saying the mantras. The TM instructions explicit advise NOT trying to think or pronounce the mantra clearly: âMental repetition is not a clear pronunciation; just a faint idea.â The key word there is try. It is perfectly acceptable, according to my understanding, for the mantra to be clear as a bell. I have found that during episodes of sleep deprivation or illness, that my mantra tends to be much more pronounceable than usual. Others may well have the opposite experience. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Exactly Rick. Which is not what some mantra works suggest. That is what I think is interesting. If these mantras are the 'sonic representations' of the deity, one would think they should be spoken, or thought inside, clearly and correctly. If that is so, then what are we to make of our TM way of not thinking it but faintly? What did MMY think of these mantras? Are they symbolic, or merely tools to allow us to go inside?  The mantras fetch the grace of the deva they are associated with, or something like that, was how MMY described TM mantras 55 years ago. My take is that you can accept this as a literal truth (some gods float around waiting to be enticed to offer benefits to people who use TM mantras), or that it is an attempt to explain, using religious terminology, some actual effect that using specific mantras have on people, or that it is an attempt to justify some ancient tradition that has no real relevance to non-believers, but since MMY was a believer, he bought the explanation and used it. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer rick@... wrote: The TM instructions explicit advise NOT trying to think or pronounce the mantra clearly: âMental repetition is not a clear pronunciation; just a faint idea.â Just out of curiosity, how is your recall of the puja, the checking notes, the steps? At best, I think I could do half of any of them. Maybe not that much, and then it would be some here, some there
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: I wasn't talking about the knowledge but how Indians love to argue. They really went at it on one forum over the ng and m endings. And just wander over to the JyotishList on Yahoo. There is often a brawl going on there. ;-) Sorry I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying, I wasn't even aware of the ng ending. I'm sure it's never ending since there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer to anything.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Bill, You might note the following: Verbal pronunciation and muttered pronunciation is what passes as mantra for most hindoo-s and Tibetans. That is why they call it japa (repetition). Not all of them do it this way however. TM is decidedly not like that but is based upon the four (4) levels of speech (Vak) that chart the influence of human speech from verbal articulation to the noetic pulsations at the borderline of silence. . --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Hi Rob. What I found interesting in the pronunciation was simply this: books on mantra meditation that I have state very emphatically that the mantra must be pronounced absolutely clearly and correctly. I assume because they believe that the mantra is some sort of sonic representation, if not sonic manifestation, of the deity. Yet in TM we are told the mantra might will change as we use it. And the mantra should ideally be a faint thought--not something clear and strong in our minds.This was part of my interest in this varient ways of saying the mantras.  Cheers Bill
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Only in my younger days. I concluded that people deserve something better than that. I found them wanting to attribute more Reality to me than I really could claim. It was an easy way to attribute too much to divine power or God's grace because someone had a (temporary) connection to the ocean of power. It's just too easy to forget that we are French kissing the Grim Reaper with every breath. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 07/14/2011 07:53 PM, emptybill wrote: This could be a duplicate Yahoo post or maybe not. Sorry but no troth with Yahoo. Bill, Contrary to what you might read, Shakti does not mean energy, as in electricity, but rather power. Empty, have you ever given shaktipat?
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
one reason why you dont discuss the mantra is you are creating a lot of doubt and confusion in some people reading this which is what happened to you when you saw TM mantras written, it just shouldn't happen.  official TM teacher guide to tell to students. The main principle during Transcendental Meditation is thinking the mantra effortlessly :  In this meditation, we do not concentrate, we do not try to think the mantra clearly. Mental repetition is not a clear pronunciation, rather it is a faint idea. We don't try to make a rhythm of the mantra. We don't try to control thoughts. We do not wish that thoughts should not come. If a thought comes, we do not try to push it out. We don't feel sorry about it. When a thought comes, the mind is completely absorbed in the thought. And if at any time you seem to be forgetting the mantra, don't try to hold on. Whenever we forget the mantra, we come back to to it very quietly. It is a very simple and natural process. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. The mantra may change in different ways. It can get faster or slower, louder or softer, clearer or fainter. Its pronunciation may change, lengthen or shorten or even may appear to be distorted or it may not appear to change at all. In every case, we take it as it comes, neither anticipating nor resisting change, just simple innocence.  There is no need to try to stop thinking because thoughts are a part of meditation. Even if the mind is filled with other thoughts while the mantra is going on, there is no conflict. Our concern is with the mantra, and if other thoughts are there along with it, we do not mind them and we don't try to remove them. We are not concerned with them, we innocently favor the mantra.  Noise is no barrier to meditation. Even in a noisy market, it is possible to be thinking thoughts and whenever we can think, we can meditate. So one can think the mantra comfortably even though aware of outside noises. We just innocently favor the mantra and do not try to resist noise in any way.  Even with some discomfort we should be able to meditate, for anyone who can think can meditate, and even with some bodily discomfort, it's our experience that we do not lose the natural ability to have thoughts.  One thing is very important, that we do not try to meditate. We do not try to keep the tempo of the mantra the same, nor do we try to change the tempo. And, we do not concentrate against thoughts we might have, or against noises we might hear. We do not resist thoughts, we do not resist noise, we do not resist the mantra changing or disappearing, we do not resist anything. We take it as it comes. It is a very simple, natural, innocent process. When we meditate at home, we start with half a minute sitting easily. That means, close the eyes about half a minute and then start the mantra easily. And when we want to end meditation then we stop thinking the mantra inside, but do not open the eyes for about 2 minutes. This is very important that we start with half a minute of silence and end with 2 minutes of silence. Advanced Techniques    In Transcendental Meditation there are several advanced techniques that can be used to meditate. The advanced techniques consist of adding a prefix and/or suffix to the basic mantra.  The prefix can be : Shree or Shree Shree  with the Sh as pronounced in Shrimps and the ee as pronounced in we.  The suffix can be : Namah or Namah Namah with the a pronounced as the e in The or a.  For example :  If you basic mantra is Shearing, then the advanced mantra's can be :  Shearing Namah  or  Shree Shearing Namah  or  Shree Shearing Namah Namah  or  Shree Shree Shearing Namah  or  Shree Shree Shearing Namah Namah  or Shree Shree Shearing Shearing Namah Namah  You can start with Shearing Namah, if Shearing is your basic mantra. And after meditating for some minutes you can continue with Shree Shearing Namah, after some minutes you can continue with Shree Shree Shearing Namah Namah and after some minutes you can continue with Shree Shree Shearing Shearing Namah Namah according to your own need and feeling. It is no problem to switch between the basic mantra and the different advanced mantra's during meditation. One of the advanced techniques also consistes of thinking the mantra in the Heart area (bottom of sternum) form time to time (second or minutes) with a soft focus on that area. You should follow your own need and feelings.   Meaning of Shree and Namah :
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Cheers Bill   You've meditated what, 6 months and already mixed up ? That's what you get when you don't pay attention to what the TM-Teacher tells you. Good luck to you, but please have a checking as soon as possible !
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Nab, I do know how to pronounce my mantra, at least as it was told to me. But what is here is different. Excuse my curiosity Cheers Bill PS- My training was, after all, 11 years ago!! From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:50 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Cheers Bill   You've meditated what, 6 months and already mixed up ? That's what you get when you don't pay attention to what the TM-Teacher tells you. Good luck to you, but please have a checking as soon as possible !
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
William Parkinson: I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught... Though disputed by somemost in the Shankaracharya tradition practice samaya sri vidya and accept that he wrote several tantric texts including Saundaryalahari, etc, etc. - James Duffy Read more: Subject: Re: Guru Dev and Sri Vidya From: James Duffy Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: April 28, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/2drn7gp I tried to trace back my own mantra within the Advaita-shakti tradition and found that it was recorded in Shankara's 'Saundaryalahari.' According to the Shankaracharya of Sringeri, the Adi Shankara placed the Sri Chakra, symbol of Tripurasundari, with the TM mantras inscribed thereon, at each of the seats of learning - Dwarka, Puri, Sringeri, and at Jyotirmath. The mantras of TM are DIRECTLY related to Sri Vidya. It is also a fact that the cult of Sri Vidya was derived from the nath siddhas, tantric alchemists of medieval India, 99% of whom were Vajrayana Buddhists in the line of Nagarjuna! Read more: Sri Vidya: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/srividya.htm
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Sigh, are you SURE you have learned TM? Have you ever been checked? Starting to think that WIlliam is a troll... L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Nab, I do know how to pronounce my mantra, at least as it was told to me. But what is here is different. Excuse my curiosity Cheers Bill PS- My training was, after all, 11 years ago!! Stop this nonsense. Either you listen to what the teacher says, or you choose to do someting else. Simple.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Troll:http://www.janbrett.com/mobile_troll.htm (Ha!...Gotcha...) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Sigh, are you SURE you have learned TM? Have you ever been checked? Starting to think that WIlliam is a troll... L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Bill, Many thanks for your posts. Have you studied much about the early Christian church (probably a silly question), say the crucifixion to AD 337? We had an excellent series of exchanges started before Robin retired and I would enjoy a few more. I wouldn't worry too much about the Nabster, he suffers from what is fondly referred to on FFL as PAS (post abduction syndrome). He generously shares a lot of images of crop circles. The current thinking is that he may have been on the ship that made most of them. From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:50:31 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Cheers Bill   You've meditated what, 6 months and already mixed up ? That's what you get when you don't pay attention to what the TM-Teacher tells you. Good luck to you, but please have a checking as soon as possible !
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Nab, I do know how to pronounce my mantra, at least as it was told to me. But what is here is different. Excuse my curiosity Cheers Bill PS- My training was, after all, 11 years ago!! Stop this nonsense. Either you listen to what the teacher says, or you choose to do someting else. Simple. Many people believe that they MUST start thinking their mantra exactly the same way every time. I think MY decided that if they didn't intuit from what they were told that this was a bit anal, that it was counter-productive to make the hints any stronger than they already are. But, I'll just say that after nearly 40 years of practicing TM, it takes quite a bit of effort sometimes to remember exactly how my mantra was pronounced when I was given it. Oh wait, TM is effortless... Did MMY lie or is there something to be learned from the realization that attempting to remember a specific pronunciation from 38 years ago is often extremely difficult? L
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Cheers Bill   You don't need to second guess your teacher. Practice it as you were taught. This is not a distinction that matters outside Vedic studies. TM is not that touchy. I know they made a big deal out of the mantra thing but don't sweat it, your mantra is fine. I agree that you should get a checking so they can get you off this worry about the pronunciation of the mantra. It changes inside as you repeat it anyway so don't get into a mind trip about comparing what you read with what you heard. If you trust your teacher for the technique, trust him with the pronunciation. If you don't trust him try something else. TM is a way to chill out, not get hyper about pronunciation of the mantra. I was a TM teacher and that is my opinion. Transcendental Meditation TM  Transcendental Meditation is a specific and wonderful technique of mantra meditation that has been discovered and developed by the great and famous Gurudev Shri Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in the 20th century. I have been initiated at young age while I was a teenager and later in my life I became initiated again for the second time. I have tried a lot of mantras and meditations, but I must admit that Maharishi 's technique and insight still is the best and most effective of all meditation techniques.  The mantras that are used are derived and modified versions of the originial Sanskrit Tantric Shakti Beej Beeja Bija Mantras (AIM or AING for Godess Sarasvati, SHRIM or SHRING for Godess Laksmi, HRIM or HRING for Godess Maheshvari and KRIM or KRING for Godess Kali) which are commonly found in the books and traditions of Tantric Hinduism.  Maharishi has modified these sanskrit mantras in a specific way such that they are very easy to think. By this modification the mantras also possess a very special quality : the have the specific quality to be thought and experienced at finer levels very easily in comparison to the original Sanskrit versions (see above) and also in comparison to other thoughts or objects of meditation. It is his genius and accomlishment that he discovered and developed this.   The modificated mantras are :   SHRIM or SHRING (original sanskrit version) becomes modified (TM version) : SHEARING or SHEARIM  HRIM or HRING (original sanskrit version) becomes modified (TM version) : HEARING or HEARIM  KRIM or KRING (original sanskrit version) becomes modified (TM version) : KEARING or KEARIM  AIM or AING (orginal sankrit version) becomes modified (TM version) :ING, IM, INGA, IMA, AING, AIM, AINGA or AIMA  SHYAM (original sanskrit version) becomes modified (TM version) : SHEEYAM   Correct Pronuniciation : the EA is pronounced as the EA in HEAR or EAR                                              the Iis pronounced as the I in SING or RING                                                                                           the A in SHEEYAM is pronounced as the A in ARMY                                                                         the AI in AING or AIM is pronounced as the I in I'm   Method of giving the mantras :   In TM the mantras are given according to the age at the time of initiation :   Age group between 0 and 10 years : ING is used   Pronounce as ING in Swing  Age group between 10 and 12 years : IM is used  Pronounce as IM in DIM  Age group between 12 and 14 years : INGA is used  Pronounce as ING in Swing and A in Ah  Age group between 14 and 16 years : IMA is used  Pronounce as IM in dim and A in Ah  Age group between 16 and 18 years : AING is used  Pronounce as eye+ING  Age group between 18 and 20 years : AIM is used Pronounce as I'm  Age group between 20 and 22 years : AINGA is used Pronounce as eye+ING+A withe the A as in Ah  Age group between 22 and 24 years : AIMA is used Pronounce as I+EEM (as in Seem)+ A as in Ah  Age group between 24 and 30 years : SHEARING is used Pronounce as the EA in Shear and the ING in swing  Age group between 30 and 34 years : SHEARIM is used Pronounce as EA in Shear and IM in dim  Age group between 35 and 39 years (in America) : HEARING is used Pronounce as EA in Hear and ING in ring  Age group between 35 and 39 years (in Europe) : HEREENG is used Pronounce
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
below...vault of the mouth. Nope - as stated or implied by others; those people excessively concerned about authentic pronunciation apparently don't have a clue about TM and probably were not initiated into it. http://skeletonart.com/Detailed/739.html --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 3:28 PM, William Parkinson wrote: I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Honestly, while this is interesting, the best way is to be instructed in the Sanskrit alphabet's proper pronunciation and where those sounds occur in the mouth. Then learn the mantras according to the proper Sanskrit pronunciation and where they occur in the vault of the the mouth.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:08 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Sigh, are you SURE you have learned TM? Have you ever been checked? Starting to think that WIlliam is a troll... One POV worth considering is that since TM does not generally oppose the mantra changing in sound or quality or speed, etc., ones mantra could change and they would not remember the original sound they were given, but the morphed version. I know mine morphed so that I had to be re-told it on checking several times... It's one of the pitfalls of the technique and it's instruction, esp. since initiators do not generally know Sanskrit and proper Sanskrit or Dakini language pronunciations. One thing William could consider is visiting a saint like Amma and ask for your full mantra. You could also be initiated into your yantra if you so desired.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:21 PM, sparaig wrote: Oh wait, TM is effortless... Did MMY lie or is there something to be learned from the realization that attempting to remember a specific pronunciation from 38 years ago is often extremely difficult? If you knew basic Sanskrit pronunciation (very fun and easy to learn) and how your mantra was spelt, you'd never forget. One fun practice is writing your bija in mantric language (which is a variant of Devanagari).
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Yifu wrote: below...vault of the mouth. Nope - as stated or implied by others; those people excessively concerned about authentic pronunciation apparently don't have a clue about TM and probably were not initiated into it. Then they don't understand namarupa, name-and-form.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Yes I was taught and taught well (at least I thought so) by a thoughtful and helpful TM teacher in Vancouver B.C. I ask only as academic matter; this is different that what I was taught. Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:08 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Sigh, are you SURE you have learned TM? Have you ever been checked? Starting to think that WIlliam is a troll... L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Thank you for your concern Nab. Now does anyone have anything constructive to say? Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Nab, I do know how to pronounce my mantra, at least as it was told to me. But what is here is different. Excuse my curiosity Cheers Bill PS- My training was, after all, 11 years ago!! Stop this nonsense. Either you listen to what the teacher says, or you choose to do someting else. Simple. Many people believe that they MUST start thinking their mantra exactly the same way every time. I think MY decided that if they didn't intuit from what they were told that this was a bit anal, that it was counter-productive to make the hints any stronger than they already are. But, I'll just say that after nearly 40 years of practicing TM, it takes quite a bit of effort sometimes to remember exactly how my mantra was pronounced when I was given it. Oh wait, TM is effortless... Did MMY lie or is there something to be learned from the realization that attempting to remember a specific pronunciation from 38 years ago is often extremely difficult? L
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: One thing William could consider is visiting a saint like Amma and ask for your full mantra. You could also be initiated into your yantra if you so desired. Yes, that's a brilliant advice from Vaj; since he already is confused why not get him really, reaaly mixed up !
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Bob, there are some colorful people involved with Eastern traditions, to be sure. In fact the person with that website thinks of himself as a 21rst Century maharishi. It is fine with me if Nab wants to be testy. I will reply in a collegial fashion, which is what I am used to. I wish Nab only the best. And by the way, thank you for your continued kindness!! For me personally, that is the only metric of spiritual development that really means anything to me. Cheers Bill From: Bob Price bobpri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Bill, Many thanks for your posts. Have you studied much about the early Christian church (probably a silly question), say the crucifixion to AD 337? We had an excellent series of exchanges started before Robin retired and I would enjoy a few more. I wouldn't worry too much about the Nabster, he suffers from what is fondly referred to on FFL as PAS (post abduction syndrome). He generously shares a lot of images of crop circles. The current thinking is that he may have been on the ship that made most of them. From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:50:31 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Cheers Bill   You've meditated what, 6 months and already mixed up ? That's what you get when you don't pay attention to what the TM-Teacher tells you. Good luck to you, but please have a checking as soon as possible !
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
I was taught and still have my receipt. Goodness!! I ask as a curiosity. Is it not possible to discuss these issues rationally and in a collegial fashion? Cheers Bill From: Yifu yifux...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:34 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras below...vault of the mouth. Nope - as stated or implied by others; those people excessively concerned about authentic pronunciation apparently don't have a clue about TM and probably were not initiated into it. http://skeletonart.com/Detailed/739.html --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 3:28 PM, William Parkinson wrote: I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Honestly, while this is interesting, the best way is to be instructed in the Sanskrit alphabet's proper pronunciation and where those sounds occur in the mouth. Then learn the mantras according to the proper Sanskrit pronunciation and where they occur in the vault of the the mouth.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you for your concern Nab. Now does anyone have anything constructive to say? Cheers Bill Only glad to help :-) But if you disregard my constructive advice I can say with certaincy that you will travel further into the dead-end-road you have started leading nowhere. I can assure you that you will not receive a more constructive advise on this forum than having a checking the sooner the better.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Bill Yours is a natural question for anyone trying to understand what a meditation mantra actually is. However you have cited only one attempt to explain how to produce the sounds of these bija mantra-s. Even if you cited many different people, without knowing how to pronounce Sanskrit this topic will remain somewhat confusing to you. In the end you will still be left positioned exactly where you are now dependent upon someone else to tell you how they pronounce it themselves or else the old reduction to my guru sez. Be aware that Maharishi worked out a way to impart bija mantras to Westerners who are not used to pronouncing semi-vowels when conjoined with consonants. Also be aware that much of these Web attempts you are seeing are nothing but the guesses of the posters and that some of them are actually quite wrong. This is another illustration of why classically trained pandits require so many years of specialized training before becoming proficient. Additionally, be aware that the anusvara endings (-n, -ng, -m) of Sanskrit words are pronounced according to their placement in the standard five oral articulations of human speech sounds in Sanskrit. Not all of these exist in English. And to make it even more confusing, understand that the pandits in differing parts of India pronounce some of these sounds in variant ways. As an ending note, I'll repeat a previous post of mine: All modern Western scholars of Shankara or Advaita firmly reject the claim that Adi-Shankara was the author of either Ananda-Larari or Saundarya-Lahari. Although some devotional Advaitin-s may praise these texts/songs, they are still Shakta (goddess) literature, which is non-dualist in orientation. However, Adaivtin-s can perform any legitimate practice as long as he/she maintains the non-dual view. That includes the Tantric practices of Shri Vidya and Shri Chakra, now found by amalgamation among many advaitins. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: I was taught and still have my receipt. Goodness!! I ask as a curiosity. Is it not possible to discuss these issues rationally and in a collegial fashion? Cheers Bill From: Yifu yifuxero@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:34 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras  below...vault of the mouth. Nope - as stated or implied by others; those people excessively concerned about authentic pronunciation apparently don't have a clue about TM and probably were not initiated into it. http://skeletonart.com/Detailed/739.html --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 3:28 PM, William Parkinson wrote: I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Honestly, while this is interesting, the best way is to be instructed in the Sanskrit alphabet's proper pronunciation and where those sounds occur in the mouth. Then learn the mantras according to the proper Sanskrit pronunciation and where they occur in the vault of the the mouth.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Bill, the information you cite differs from what I learned on my TM teacher training course. I suggest you have this conversation with your TM teacher. You've seen what a runaround you get here. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Cheers Bill
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Thank you Nab. I am in contact with the local teacher here and did get checked when I started again. (Annie Skipper in Kirkland WA.) Bear in mind Nab that I meditate only to improve myself. I am not as serious as some have been. So for me, if I am not saying it correct, that is ok. It is working and much faster than I thought. I assumed it might take three or four years to even have to worry about the issue of cosmic consciousness and yet here I am going into the fifth month and it's already quite palpable, which is exactly why I consulted this forum. I thought I better find out right here and now about its impact on sleep. But thank you for your concern, I appreciate it. Cheers Bill From: nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:04 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Thank you for your concern Nab. Now does anyone have anything constructive to say? Cheers Bill Only glad to help :-) But if you disregard my constructive advice I can say with certaincy that you will travel further into the dead-end-road you have started leading nowhere. I can assure you that you will not receive a more constructive advise on this forum than having a checking the sooner the better.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Emptybill, you have hit on it exactly! This was another point of interest. The author of the article claims that Maharishi changed the mantras, but didn't really state why, other than to make them easier. You have framed this change within the context of making it more palatable to a Western audience. This is a very rational and reasonable proposition. People on FFL need to understand something. Since I have returned to TM, people consistently ask me about it. And I want to be as accurate as I can in everything I tell them. I deeply appreciate you pointing this out to me. It certainly has the ring of truth! Cheers Bill From: emptybill emptyb...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:18 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Bill Yours is a natural question for anyone trying to understand what a meditation mantra actually is. However you have cited only one attempt to explain how to produce the sounds of these bija mantra-s. Even if you cited many different people, without knowing how to pronounce Sanskrit this topic will remain somewhat confusing to you. In the end you will still be left positioned exactly where you are now – dependent upon someone else to tell you how they pronounce it themselves or else the old reduction to my guru sez. Be aware that Maharishi worked out a way to impart bija mantras to Westerners who are not used to pronouncing semi-vowels when conjoined with consonants. Also be aware that much of these Web attempts you are seeing are nothing but the guesses of the posters and that some of them are actually quite wrong. This is another illustration of why classically trained pandits require so many years of specialized training before becoming proficient. Additionally, be aware that the anusvara endings (-n, -ng, -m) of Sanskrit words are pronounced according to their placement in the standard five oral articulations of human speech sounds in Sanskrit. Not all of these exist in English. And to make it even more confusing, understand that the pandits in differing parts of India pronounce some of these sounds in variant ways. As an ending note, I'll repeat a previous post of mine: All modern Western scholars of Shankara or Advaita firmly reject the claim that Adi-Shankara was the author of either Ananda-Larari or Saundarya-Lahari. Although some devotional Advaitin-s may praise these texts/songs, they are still Shakta (goddess) literature, which is non-dualist in orientation. However, Adaivtin-s can perform any legitimate practice as long as he/she maintains the non-dual view. That includes the Tantric practices of Shri Vidya and Shri Chakra, nowfound by amalgamation among many advaitins.……… --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: I was taught and still have my receipt. Goodness!! I ask as a curiosity. Is it not possible to discuss these issues rationally and in a collegial fashion? Cheers Bill From: Yifu yifuxero@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:34 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras  below...vault of the mouth. Nope - as stated or implied by others; those people excessively concerned about authentic pronunciation apparently don't have a clue about TM and probably were not initiated into it. http://skeletonart.com/Detailed/739.html --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 3:28 PM, William Parkinson wrote: I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Honestly, while this is interesting, the best way is to be instructed in the Sanskrit alphabet's proper pronunciation and where those sounds occur in the mouth. Then learn the mantras according to the proper Sanskrit pronunciation and where they occur in the vault of the the mouth.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
LOL thank you JP. When I first saw the list I noticed he added European versions. I thought maybe he was European and that this was simply his way of pronouncing it. But on his website he claims to be an American doctor, who in his own estimation is a 21st-century Maharishi. I find it all very fascinating, even if it is sometimes confusing to me! Cheers Bill From: jpgillam jpgil...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:22 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras Bill, the information you cite differs from what I learned on my TM teacher training course. I suggest you have this conversation with your TM teacher. You've seen what a runaround you get here. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote:  I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her'). Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Cheers Bill
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
emptybill: All modern Western scholars of Shankara or Advaita firmly reject the claim that Adi-Shankara was the author of either Ananda-Larari or Saundarya-Lahari. Maybe so, but as TMers we are not concerned with what most Western scholars think about Shankara. It is a fact that all the Dasanami Sannyasins worship the Sri Vidya and accept the Adi Shankara as the author of the Saundarylahri. That's why at all the Ammnya Mathas founded by Shankara you will find the Sri Chakra ensconced on the mandir. Our Guru Dev was a Sri Vidya adherent and his master, Swami Krishnaanada was a Sri Vidya practitioner. So, we TMers have a direct connection to the Sringeri Matha, through Brahmananda Saraswati. Bija 'mantras', by definition, have no semantic meaning - that's why they're called 'mantras' instead of being called 'words'. If the bijas were Sanskrit words, there would be no need for a definition of them, since their meaning would be obvious to anyone who could read a Sanskrit lexicon. So, let's review: In basic TM you get the single seed sound (bija) and later the fertilizer; and you get the simple set of instructions for the correct angle to dive. So, it has now been established that at least two of the most sacred bija-mantras, out of the fifteen, contained in the Saundaryalahari, are in fact, TM bija-mantras. Read more: Subject: Guru Dev and Mantrayana Author: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: December 17, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ykp6rhs On the origin of the TM bija mantras: Bija mantras issued by TM are ''Sri Vidya'' bija mantras. To be fair, I won't go into what they are, but if one listens to all TM mantras, except for 2, they are 2 or 3 syllable, and this is a very important component of the technique... Subject: Re: Guru Dev and Sri Vidya Author: Billy Smith Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: April 22, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ye8my2 You are getting warmer when it comes to understanding TM's origins with your posts regarding the Shankaracharya tradition and its practice of Srividya... Subject: Re: TM: Siva Sutra Author: James Duffy Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental, alt.yoga, alt.meditation Date: September 21, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/yjwa2yr
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
Richard and Emptybill: Given my rudimentary knowledge at this point I am wondering if the both of you can clarify something. I went and looked up on Wikipedia about Sri Vidya. I thought that the basic shakti doctrine was as follows: Shiva is the static consciousness that pervades all things, while shakti represents (envisioned in feminine form) the dynamic form of consciousness. In essence, they have divided up the notion of Brahman. One is pure consciousness, static in existence, while the other is pure consciousness in its changeable phenomenal form? I thought all these divine goddesses were simply a manifestation of shakti. Is that not correct? Cheers Bill From: richardjwilliamstexas willy...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 3:04 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras emptybill: All modern Western scholars of Shankara or Advaita firmly reject the claim that Adi-Shankara was the author of either Ananda-Larari or Saundarya-Lahari. Maybe so, but as TMers we are not concerned with what most Western scholars think about Shankara. It is a fact that all the Dasanami Sannyasins worship the Sri Vidya and accept the Adi Shankara as the author of the Saundarylahri. That's why at all the Ammnya Mathas founded by Shankara you will find the Sri Chakra ensconced on the mandir. Our Guru Dev was a Sri Vidya adherent and his master, Swami Krishnaanada was a Sri Vidya practitioner. So, we TMers have a direct connection to the Sringeri Matha, through Brahmananda Saraswati. Bija 'mantras', by definition, have no semantic meaning - that's why they're called 'mantras' instead of being called 'words'. If the bijas were Sanskrit words, there would be no need for a definition of them, since their meaning would be obvious to anyone who could read a Sanskrit lexicon. So, let's review: In basic TM you get the single seed sound (bija) and later the fertilizer; and you get the simple set of instructions for the correct angle to dive. So, it has now been established that at least two of the most sacred bija-mantras, out of the fifteen, contained in the Saundaryalahari, are in fact, TM bija-mantras. Read more: Subject: Guru Dev and Mantrayana Author: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: December 17, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ykp6rhs On the origin of the TM bija mantras: Bija mantras issued by TM are ''Sri Vidya'' bija mantras. To be fair, I won't go into what they are, but if one listens to all TM mantras, except for 2, they are 2 or 3 syllable, and this is a very important component of the technique... Subject: Re: Guru Dev and Sri Vidya Author: Billy Smith Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: April 22, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ye8my2 You are getting warmer when it comes to understanding TM's origins with your posts regarding the Shankaracharya tradition and its practice of Srividya... Subject: Re: TM: Siva Sutra Author: James Duffy Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental, alt.yoga, alt.meditation Date: September 21, 2003 http://tinyurl.com/yjwa2yr
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
L., I looked again and there was the 'Yo William' one and another about the mission of Maharishi. I must have missed one. Maybe I deleted it by accident. Ther are none with any links!! Cheers Bill From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: Nab, I do know how to pronounce my mantra, at least as it was told to me. But what is here is different. Excuse my curiosity Cheers Bill PS- My training was, after all, 11 years ago!! Stop this nonsense. Either you listen to what the teacher says, or you choose to do someting else. Simple. Many people believe that they MUST start thinking their mantra exactly the same way every time. I think MY decided that if they didn't intuit from what they were told that this was a bit anal, that it was counter-productive to make the hints any stronger than they already are. But, I'll just say that after nearly 40 years of practicing TM, it takes quite a bit of effort sometimes to remember exactly how my mantra was pronounced when I was given it. Oh wait, TM is effortless... Did MMY lie or is there something to be learned from the realization that attempting to remember a specific pronunciation from 38 years ago is often extremely difficult? L
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:21 PM, sparaig wrote: Oh wait, TM is effortless... Did MMY lie or is there something to be learned from the realization that attempting to remember a specific pronunciation from 38 years ago is often extremely difficult? If you knew basic Sanskrit pronunciation (very fun and easy to learn) and how your mantra was spelt, you'd never forget. One fun practice is writing your bija in mantric language (which is a variant of Devanagari). Says Vaj missing the whole point... L
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:08 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@ wrote: � I found this webpage and it has a different way to pronounce the mantra I was taught. Those of you who were teachers, is this way correct? For example, hearim (as in 'hear') instead of herim (as in 'her').� Is this list even valid? Thx for any information anyone might have! Sigh, are you SURE you have learned TM? Have you ever been checked? Starting to think that WIlliam is a troll... One POV worth considering is that since TM does not generally oppose the mantra changing in sound or quality or speed, etc., ones mantra could change and they would not remember the original sound they were given, but the morphed version. I know mine morphed so that I had to be re-told it on checking several times... As much as anythign else I suspect that that was a nod to your anxiety, rather than an essential part of checking... It's one of the pitfalls of the technique and it's instruction, esp. since initiators do not generally know Sanskrit and proper Sanskrit or Dakini language pronunciations. One of the pitfalls, or one of the most important aspects of the difference between TM and what you think is proper? One thing William could consider is visiting a saint like Amma and ask for your full mantra. You could also be initiated into your yantra if you so desired.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Jul 14, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Yifu wrote: below...vault of the mouth. Nope - as stated or implied by others; those people excessively concerned about authentic pronunciation apparently don't have a clue about TM and probably were not initiated into it. Then they don't understand namarupa, name-and-form. How's that cup of tea, Vaj? Runnething over? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: I was taught and still have my receipt. Goodness!! IÂ ask as a curiosity. Is it not possible to discuss these issues rationally and in a collegial fashion? Well, saying mantras out loud or writing them down (or deliberately seeking your own out to read) is sorta contra-TM to most of us Believers. Whether it really is an important point, or, as Vaj suggests, is actually a crippling issue unique to the bastardized TM technique, is always a point of great debate on this forum... Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
This could be a duplicate Yahoo post or maybe not. Sorry but no troth with Yahoo. Bill, Contrary to what you might read, Shakti does not mean energy, as in electricity, but rather power. Shakti (power) carries none of our modern connotations of a strictly mechanistic force but rather points to what Shakta-s (shakti initiates) see as the intelligence(s) that actualize the cosmos and enact its unmanifest design. You seem to recognize that Shaktivada (shakti-ism) is a doctrine (-vada) that is quite separate from Advaita. It is a doctrine asserting that there is a universal power that manifests the cosmos and that it's actualizations are various all-constituting intelligences. Since these are intelligences, rather than insentient material forces, the further insight is that they are accessible to other intelligences (like us) and that there is a methodology for doing just this. That methodology is called Tantra and includes not only formulae for contacting these intelligences but also specific etiquettes for creating, maintaining and enhancing this contact. These intelligences are deva-s/devi-s the numinous presences that constitute and animate our body, along with our sense powers, mental operations and the functions of consciousness (chitta). All of these internal deva-s/devi-s are considered micro-processes of macro-intelligences that are massively awake and actively cognizant. They are the internal-external values that order, organize and interconnect the various subjective/objective strata of the universe. This, however, does not include Awareness (chit) which is a reality eulogized as Shiva, the auspicious One, the Presence-Awareness-Felicity that is the essence of all true identity. Sounds abstract but that's the cliff notes version for dummies like me. You may find it a mere iteration of what you already know but it never hurts of hear it again. Now I think I'll go have a beer. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, William Parkinson ameradian2@... wrote: Richard and Emptybill: Given my rudimentary knowledge at this point I am wondering if the both of you can clarify something. I went and looked up on Wikipedia about Sri Vidya. I thought that the basic shakti doctrine was as follows: Shiva is the static consciousness that pervades all things, while shakti represents (envisioned in feminine form) the dynamic form of consciousness. In essence, they have divided up the notion of Brahman. One is pure consciousness, static in existence, while the other is pure consciousness in its changeable phenomenal form? I thought all these divine goddesses were simply a manifestation of shakti. Is that not correct? Cheers Bill Â
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
William Parkinson: Shiva is the static consciousness that pervades all things, while shakti represents (envisioned in feminine form) the dynamic form of consciousness... The answer lies in the relationship of the Sri Vidya tradition and Kashmere Saivism. In the Shankaracharya tradition, Shankara was born at Kaladi, where he was a sort of child prodigy linguist, at an early age. Shankara went to study with Gaudapada, and then subsequently travelled to Kashi, and then to the Upper Kashi, where he founded the Jyotir Math and composed his commentary on 'Vedanta Sutra' and 'Bhagavad Gita'. Shankara then traveled to Kashmere where he got the Sri Yantra and took it to Karnataka where he placed it on the altar and called the place Sringeri, after the Shakti. It was at Sringeri that Shankara composed the 'Ode to the South Facing Form' and the 'Saundarylahari'. According to Theos Bernard, Kashmere Saivism teaches that conciousness alternates between two phases, rest and action. You can easily see the relation to TM practice when you consider that this is almost exactly what MMY said at Squaw Valley! The phase of transcendental rest is called 'Pralaya' in Sanskrit, which has no first beginning, therefore no primal cause. The world of matter is only another form of conciousness. The Vedanta doctrine contends that there is only one ultimate reality which never changes; therefore the manifest world is an 'appearance' only, Maya. Kashmere Saivism contends that there is only one reality, but it has *two aspects*. The manifestation, Maya, is real. This is based on the argument that the effect cannot be different from its cause. However, according to the Siva Sutra, human logic can never construct an unassailable monism; the final proof can be had only by the experience of yogic samadhi, attained through mantric meditation. Centering - An excerpt from the 'Bhairava Tantra', translated by Swami by Laksmanjoo: 7. Devi, imagine the Sanskrit letters in these honey-filled foci of awareness, first as letters, then more subtly as sounds, then as most subtle feeling. Then, leaving them aside, be free. 14. Bathe in the center of sound, as in the continuous sound of a waterfall. Or, by putting fingers in ears, hear the sound of sounds. 19. Intone a sound audibly, then less and less audible as feeling deepens into this silent harmony. Read more: http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/centering.htm
[FairfieldLife] Re: How to pronounce the mantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: You have opened a whole can of worms here. I've watched for years different tantra school argue over whether the beej mantras should have use the ng ending or the m ending. They have slightly different effects as far as resonance patterns go. And Indians given their nature will argue passionately over this, making the arguments on FFL look very wimpy (I'm sure Ravi will agree). Bhairitu - I have to plead ignorance in spite of being born a Brahmin, you and others seem to be more well versed and yeah lot of Indians for sure. However give me some Sanskrit slokas and I will chant it perfectly, comes naturally to me.
