[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: The shift from a bound self to a non-localized Self is pure acausal grace that can not be enacted from the side of the bound mind. And if the shift occurs, and there is something acausal, then what does the acausal thing have to do with the shift? Nothing. Unless you believe it does. And then you're stuck with your belief, which implies boundaries and is no longer the thing you're examining. You have shifted back. This appear so be a non-statment. Or one of no consequence. A has nothing to do with B. B shifts. (So why bring up A?) Habit. If the grace is causal, then on one level, there is some meaning in the statement. What's wrong with all statements having exactly the amount of meaning? That is, only the amount we give to them. But grace implies something outside of IT. Thus its support on someting. Which contradicts prior statements. And contradiction is bad exactly why? It sounds like these statements of this genre are personal interpretations of an experience. They may be correct, clear, insightful interpretations, they may be fuzzy, inconsistent and distoreted. But they make sense to the interpreter. At one particular point and from one particular point of view and state of attention. If the interpreter shifts states of attention, he or she may say the exact opposite, with an equal degree of conviction. And *both* make sense to the interpreter. And *both* have the same degree of truth. That is, none. Like I intepret the sun rising every morning. It works for me. It IS what I see. It resonates with me. But I know its an incorrect interpretation of whats really going on. And you know this how? Because someone told you another interpretation, and you give it (and the teller's state of attention and point of view, from which this second interpretation is true and another is not) more than you did your own state of mind and point of view? But these types of interpretations are more akin to poetry that is trying to describe love or beauty, not an internally- consistent and logical truth. What makes you believe that truth is either internally consistent or logical? I mean, READ the words of those who have realized enlightenment over the centuries. They seem to be consistent only in the sense that they agree, when pinned down, that there is no internal consistency or logic that can be applied to the description of enlightenment. In fact, pretty much the only thing they agree on is that it can't be described. I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. And you hope that despite the fact that most of the enlightened throughout history have said just the opposite, that it *can't* be understood or described by the rational mind. In my view, this desire to understand is a natural phenomenon, but it's one that is based on the unenlight- ened self trying to survive, when in fact for enlight- enment to be realized, that limited intellectual self has to be discarded or, at the very least, ignored. What if enlightenment (or whatever you choose to call it) can NEVER be accurately measured or described? It seems to me that situation creates a couple of interesting Catch-22s. The first is that attempts *to* measure it or describe it accurately become exercises in pushing enlightenment away, not embracing its mysteries and inherent contradictions. The second is the importance of trust -- trusting one's own experience, even though it may seem internally inconsistent and non-logical. Your poetry analogy is onto something. Poets don't really mind if they describe a flower (or something less tangible, like love) differently from poem to poem. Each poem captures a small subjective aspect of the thing you're writing the poems about; *none* of the poems capture the thing itself. And that's Ok. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
TorquiseB writes snipped I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. And you hope that despite the fact that most of the enlightened throughout history have said just the opposite, that it *can't* be understood or described by the rational mind. In my view, this desire to understand is a natural phenomenon, but it's one that is based on the unenlight- ened self trying to survive, when in fact for enlight- enment to be realized, that limited intellectual self has to be discarded or, at the very least, ignored. Tom T; This thing called Enlightenment or Awakening is the ultimate paradox. It can be lived but anything and everything one can say about IT can also be both true and untrue at the same time as it can not acurately be put into words. We are all able to point to IT and still not get it right. Just be willing to live the paradox and see where that takes you. TOm T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
Jim Flanegin writes Snipped: IT is the simultaneous phenomenon, and all the causitive correlates are IT also. In the second case, IT causes itself. Again, we are fooled into thinking we are the cause of IT, when in fact, IT is the cause of IT. We just don't realize IT when we are fooled into thinking we are the cause of IT. Tom T: An analogy is to think about sitting in front of a 10 million candlewatt strobe light with the eyes closed and wearing an eye mask. THe effect of all that light will leave an imprint on the physiology even if the light is not directly percieved. The shock of the shift of indentification from self to SELF has the same kind of effect on the physiology. It is not directly percieved but known to have happened as an experience as the shift is too powerful to have not been noticed because of the shift of the identity point from small and limited to unbounded and infinite. TOm T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate no_reply@ wrote: snip But these types of interpretations are more akin to poetry that is trying to describe love or beauty, not an internally- consistent and logical truth. What makes you believe that truth is either internally consistent or logical? Rather than the truth that enlightenment is *not* either internally consistent or logical? Beware the infinite regress; beware the category error. I mean, READ the words of those who have realized enlightenment over the centuries. They seem to be consistent only in the sense that they agree, when pinned down, that there is no internal consistency or logic that can be applied to the description of enlightenment. In fact, pretty much the only thing they agree on is that it can't be described. I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. And you hope that despite the fact that most of the enlightened throughout history have said just the opposite, that it *can't* be understood or described by the rational mind. In my view, this desire to understand is a natural phenomenon, but it's one that is based on the unenlight- ened self trying to survive, when in fact for enlight- enment to be realized, that limited intellectual self has to be discarded or, at the very least, ignored. What if enlightenment (or whatever you choose to call it) can NEVER be accurately measured or described? It seems to me that situation creates a couple of interesting Catch-22s. The first is that attempts *to* measure it or describe it accurately become exercises in pushing enlightenment away, not embracing its mysteries and inherent contradictions. Actually, for some, wrestling with the contradictions can be a path to realization as the intellect demonstrates to itself that it is not just not up to the challenge but fundamentally irrelevant, because the challenge itself--of understanding enlightenment-- is irrelevant and utterly meaningless. For the intellect to decide prematurely that enlightenment is inherently contradictory--on the basis, say, of having READ the words of those who have realized enlightenment over the centuries-- makes the experiential truth of its contradictory nature into a *concept* which the intellect can uphold. This can strengthen the intellect rather than leading it to convince itself--on its own terms-- that it is superfluous. One can, in other words, work both sides of the fence: repeatedly have the experience of the contradictory nature of enlightenment, while at the same time helping the intellect dig its own grave by forcing it to slam itself repeatedly against the contradictions until it knocks itself out. *Of course* the self is going to fight for its survival; that's a given, that's its nature. If it's an especially tough and hardy self, it may be more effective to cheer it on, to encourage it to exert itself to the point of exhaustion, than to try to suppress it. Different strokes for different folks. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel babajii_99@ wrote: What you say sounds right, and I hope it is true, but how do you really know that CC has nothing to do with brain function? How do you know that the experience that consciousness is separate from the body is more than just a sense created by the brain? I am asking this because I want to know, not to be difficult. This is what I wonder about alot. Maharishi talk about 'Whole Brain Functioning' Many of the studies that have been done, on people experiencing 'Witnessing' or CC is that the brain is functioning in a coherent way. Maharishi has always said that there are physical correlates to 'states of consciousness' There are other methods of culturing 'whole brain functioning: Check out: centerpointe.com/ and the use of holosync technology to produce coherent brain functioning. And the evidence that holosynch technology produces the same effect (s) as TM is found... where? I don't where the evidence is except to say it is from my personal experience; in that I have found using the holosync thingy, is a sort of adjunct for me, in deepening my experience of TM, and Sanyama... The series of CD's are arranged so that they progressively induce a deeper and deeper state, in terms of lower frequency brain wave patterns; well into the Delta range, which is generally only experiened in deep sleep. So, in other words: It forces the mind into progressively slower brain wave patterns; which Bill Harris(Founder of the Company, and TM'er), so that for me it just has strenthened my experence in general. Maybe I'm just lazy, but I like the idea of just listening to the CD, sometimes.. I still do TM regularly, and other techniques as well. Guess I'm a bit of a meditation junkie... TM isn't practiced for experiences during TM. Forcing the brain into a certain mode may not be particularly healthy, regardless of what mode it is forced into. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My points, interspersed are not meant as argumentative. But they seek to put in fuller light some delicious contradictions still remaining. Which may be real, or artifacts of language or loopy logic. Hi, just a note here that last night I read this entire posting and found it very compelling. I responded to it point for point, then when I hit 'send', my connection to the server had been lost, and it all disappeared into the ether, unrecoverable. Rather than try to reconstruct all of that, I wanted to just restate a couple of points that I made. It is often said that any description of IT, the Self, or consciousness awake unto itself, can encompass two logically opposed points of view, and therefore any description of IT is illogical, and therefore meaningless. So, rather than being illogical, i.e. crazy or random, any comprehensive description of IT is instead super-logical, because it does comfortably and completely encompass both logical points of view of any description of it. This is because it has a relative value and an absolute value. Analogous to your description below of the sun apparently rising and setting, this phenomenon is experienced subjectively as the sun revolving around the earth, and objectively known as the earth revolving around the sun. Both realities are true; one is relative, and the other is absolute. They are completely contradictory, and yet we can experience both of them, depending on our point of view at the time. snip To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip It seems to me that situation creates a couple of interesting Catch-22s. The first is that attempts *to* measure it or describe it accurately become exercises in pushing enlightenment away, not embracing its mysteries and inherent contradictions. My attempts to describe IT, the Self, always feel like making love, Yoga, Union. Rather than pushing IT away, attempts to describe IT, whether verbally, or through art, or movement, are like mini-vacations from the dedicated tasks of everyday life, where I can focus solely on IT, for no other purpose than expressing IT, in new and wonderful ways. snip To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And contradiction is bad exactly why? In my view, there is a vast realm where logic is of great value, and where contradictions are indicative of an error. And there are other realms which are outside the realm of logic --- and contradictions are part of the landscape. Love for example. There is little logic in love. I find it of value to distinguish the two types of realms. To make universal claims that all realms are illogical and contradictions are natural is a fool's mindscape IMO. But these types of interpretations are more akin to poetry that is trying to describe love or beauty, not an internally- consistent and logical truth. What makes you believe that truth is either internally consistent or logical? I did not say all truths are internally consistent or logical. I referred a truth -- to a particular realm of truth which is internally consistent or logical. As discussed above, there are other realms which are not necessarily internally consistent or logical. To deny the former realm -- the realm where logic applies -- is a fools paradise. I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. See my adjacent posts. You will find your hypothesis is quite one-dimensional and off base. I honestly think you may be projecting here, projecting onto others an issue you are dealing with and are uncomfortable with your lack of internal resolution. And you hope that And you know that how? In my view, this desire to understand is a natural phenomenon, but it's one that is based on the unenlight- ened self trying to survive, when in fact for enlight- enment to be realized, that limited intellectual self has to be discarded or, at the very least, ignored. Based on your own experience I presume. What if enlightenment (or whatever you choose to call it) can NEVER be accurately measured or described? Thats not a problem for me. See my adjacent posts. Is it a problem for you? What does seem to be a problem for you is reading what people actually say before your strong ghosts of presumption takeover and possess your otherwise fine mind. It seems to me That and 10 francs will get you a fine expresso. that situation creates a couple of interesting Catch-22s. The first is that attempts *to* measure it or describe it accurately become exercises in pushing enlightenment away, Is that your experience? not embracing its mysteries and inherent contradictions. I have embrace a number of women along with their mysteries and inherent contradictions. Why should embracing IT and its mysteries and inherent contradictions be a huge leap? The second is the importance of trust -- trusting one's own experience, even though it may seem internally inconsistent and non-logical. Are you implying that I don't trust my own experience? If so, what stupendous leaps did you make to get there? Your poetry analogy is onto something. Thats why I brought it up. There are various realms. And various tools appropriate and useful in each realm. Somethings are best approached by poets. Other things are best left to logical quantitative types. I really don't want a poet designing jet engines on the planes I fly. And I don't want engineers telling me about love. Poets don't really mind if they describe a flower (or something less tangible, like love) differently from poem to poem. Each poem captures a small subjective aspect of the thing you're writing the poems about; *none* of the poems capture the thing itself. And that's Ok. And did you suppose or presume somehow that I felt it was not ok? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis Tom T; This thing called Enlightenment or Awakening is the ultimate paradox. It can be lived but anything and everything one can say about IT can also be both true and untrue at the same time as it can not acurately be put into words. We are all able to point to IT and still not get it right. Just be willing to live the paradox and see where that takes you. TOm T What you say is quite right and true. And quite wrong and false. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis Tom T: An analogy is to think about sitting in front of a 10 million candlewatt strobe light with the eyes closed and wearing an eye mask. THe effect of all that light will leave an imprint on the physiology even if the light is not directly percieved. The shock of the shift of indentification from self to SELF has the same kind of effect on the physiology. It is not directly percieved but known to have happened as an experience as the shift is too powerful to have not been noticed because of the shift of the identity point from small and limited to unbounded and infinite. TOm T That is quite a good and useful analogy. And its quite a false and untrue analogy having no value. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. See my adjacent posts. You will find your hypothesis is quite one-dimensional and off base. I honestly think you may be projecting here, projecting onto others an issue you are dealing with and are uncomfortable with your lack of internal resolution. Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip It seems to me that situation creates a couple of interesting Catch-22s. The first is that attempts *to* measure it or describe it accurately become exercises in pushing enlightenment away, not embracing its mysteries and inherent contradictions. My attempts to describe IT, the Self, always feel like making love, Yoga, Union. Rather than pushing IT away, attempts to describe IT, whether verbally, or through art, or movement, are like mini-vacations from the dedicated tasks of everyday life, where I can focus solely on IT, for no other purpose than expressing IT, in new and wonderful ways. snip For me, attempts to describe IT while having teh experience of IT, seem to draw me out of IT. Attempts to describe IT while NOT having the experience of IT, seem futile. Counterproductive, in other words... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. See my adjacent posts. You will find your hypothesis is quite one-dimensional and off base. I honestly think you may be projecting here, projecting onto others an issue you are dealing with and are uncomfortable with your lack of internal resolution. Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) At least I will be in good company. Interesting that the above remark set you off on a tantrum. It seems quite a mild and qualified (may) comment to someone who makes claims about aonthers inner mental states. Whats good for the goose is BAD BAD BAD for the gander I suppose. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
Jim Flanegin writes snipped My attempts to describe IT, the Self, always feel like making love, Yoga, Union. Rather than pushing IT away, attempts to describe IT, whether verbally, or through art, or movement, are like mini-vacations from the dedicated tasks of everyday life, where I can focus solely on IT, for no other purpose than expressing IT, in new and wonderful ways. Tom T Ed Zaketly! What a wonderful description of what keeps us coming back here again and again. We do it for us although it might seem we do it for all of us also. Fun Tom T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
TorquiseB Snipped Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) Tom T Ed Zaktely. Some things never change. We change they don't. Tom T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. And you hope that despite the fact that most of the enlightened throughout history have said just the opposite, that it *can't* be understood or described by the rational mind. I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. See my adjacent posts. You will find your hypothesis is quite one-dimensional and off base. I honestly think you may be projecting here, projecting onto others an issue you are dealing with and are uncomfortable with your lack of internal resolution. Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) At least I will be in good company. :) Interesting that the above remark set you off on a tantrum. It seems quite a mild and qualified (may) comment to someone who makes claims about aonthers inner mental states. (Based on a misreading of the original post no less.) Whats good for the goose is BAD BAD BAD for the gander I suppose. BTW, what dualistic school do you adhere to? Seeing all beings as pissants and non-pissants. Has this path made you real spiritual? :) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. And you hope that despite the fact that most of the enlightened throughout history have said just the opposite, that it *can't* be understood or described by the rational mind. See my adjacent posts. You will find your hypothesis is quite one-dimensional and off base. I honestly think you may be projecting here, projecting onto others an issue you are dealing with and are uncomfortable with your lack of internal resolution. Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) At least I will be in good company. :) Interesting that the above remark set you off on a tantrum. It seems quite a mild and qualified (may) comment to someone who makes claims about aonthers inner mental states. (Based on a misreading of the original post no less.) Whats good for the goose is BAD BAD BAD for the gander I suppose. BTW, what dualistic school do you adhere to? Seeing all beings as pissants and non-pissants. Has this path made you real spiritual? :) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TorquiseB Snipped Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) Tom T Ed Zaktely. Some things never change. We change they don't. Tom T Tom, I am curious about your comment. It implies that you see some great rudeness, nastiness or sin in my comment below. I don't see it. Indeed it was a bit imitative of Barry's style -- a quick smirk of a comment -- (perhaps deserving of a smiley face) building on his phrasing I honestly think you are ... and hypothesing on his inner mental dynamics as he (mistakenly) did of mine. But I am touched by your kind attention. --- TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. And you hope that despite the fact that most of the enlightened throughout history have said just the opposite, that it *can't* be understood or described by the rational mind. --- new_morning_blank_slate wrote: See my adjacent posts. You will find your hypothesis is quite one-dimensional and off base. I honestly think you may be projecting here, projecting onto others an issue you are dealing with and are uncomfortable with your lack of internal resolution. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
Tom, I agree with your (apparent) premise that kindness should flourish in our posts. My comment, though a bit smirky, was also a bit snarky. Perhaps best left unsaid. Was is Jesus who said He that snarks upon you, turn the other cheek.? A lot of wasted discussion appears to be people snarking back after having been snarked, leading to snark wars and worse. Even if Turq or others make snarky and presumptuous comments to me, that does not give me the right to snark back. FFL deserves that higher standard of conduct. So I appreciate your kindess in bringing my snarkiness, albeit mild, to my attention. I vow to try to refrain from such in the future. Please feel free to bring any lapses of such to my attention. Thank you for your kind attention. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlist@ wrote: TorquiseB Snipped Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) Tom T Ed Zaktely. Some things never change. We change they don't. Tom T Tom, I am curious about your comment. It implies that you see some great rudeness, nastiness or sin in my comment below. I don't see it. Indeed it was a bit imitative of Barry's style -- a quick smirk of a comment -- (perhaps deserving of a smiley face) building on his phrasing I honestly think you are ... and hypothesing on his inner mental dynamics as he (mistakenly) did of mine. But I am touched by your kind attention. --- TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. And you hope that despite the fact that most of the enlightened throughout history have said just the opposite, that it *can't* be understood or described by the rational mind. --- new_morning_blank_slate wrote: See my adjacent posts. You will find your hypothesis is quite one-dimensional and off base. I honestly think you may be projecting here, projecting onto others an issue you are dealing with and are uncomfortable with your lack of internal resolution. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
New morning blanket et all snipped I am curious about your comment. It implies that you see some great rudeness, nastiness or sin in my comment below. I don't see it. Indeed it was a bit imitative of Barry's style -- a quick smirk of a comment -- (perhaps deserving of a smiley face) building on his phrasing I honestly think you are ... and hypothesing on his inner mental dynamics as he (mistakenly) did of mine. But I am touched by your kind attention. Tom T No matter how hard you try your style transcends your attempt to hide who you really are. I enjoy your attempts to disquise yourself. Why not just be honest from the get go. It is much easier to love you in your uniqueness. The disguises seem to get in the way. Love from all of us that knows there is only one of us. Tom T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TorquiseB Snipped Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) Tom T Ed Zaktely. Some things never change. We change they don't. Tom T I presented my views, without either asking for or desiring an ongoing argument about them. I *did* suggest, based on his ongoing posts here, that I think he's attached to being able to understand enlightenment intellectually. That seems to have set him off. In my reply above, I quoted only one snarky reply designed (IMO) to suck me into an argument so he could swing his intellectual dick. I ignored the rest, as I intend to do to all of his posts in the future. Life's too short to argue, just because people want to argue. If some folks don't like that, *they* can read his stuff and reply to it. I don't have to. :-) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TorquiseB Snipped Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) Tom T Ed Zaktely. Some things never change. We change they don't. Tom T Note, however, that in addition to responding to Barry's heavy snark with a bit of snark of his own, the poster made a number of substantive points. So Barry chose to pout about the snark and ignore the substance. As you say, some things never change. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. And you hope that despite the fact that most of the enlightened throughout history have said just the opposite, that it *can't* be understood or described by the rational mind. See my adjacent posts. You will find your hypothesis is quite one-dimensional and off base. I honestly think you may be projecting here, projecting onto others an issue you are dealing with and are uncomfortable with your lack of internal resolution. Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) At least I will be in good company. :) Interesting that the above remark set you off on a tantrum. It seems quite a mild and qualified (may) comment to someone who makes claims about aonthers inner mental states. (Based on a misreading of the original post no less.) Whats good for the goose is BAD BAD BAD for the gander I suppose. Although, of course, only Barry is allowed to put folks down, in this case it wasn't the snark in your response but the substance that freaked him out. BTW, what dualistic school do you adhere to? Seeing all beings as pissants and non-pissants. Has this path made you real spiritual? :) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: As well, I think the drug culture of the Sixties created alot of misery and, basically, just a bunch of fucked-up dope addicts. In addition, I think there are two types of druggies, those who do it to escape from reality snip I never understood that _expression_, to escape from reality...How is that even possible? Provided you have a vaguely functioning and unadulturated brain, what you see around you is your effective reality. For whatever reason some people hate that and drugs can give you the illusion of being somewhere or somebody else. Cocaine makes you super confident, LSD is like sticking your head into another dimension. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: As well, I think the drug culture of the Sixties created alot of misery and, basically, just a bunch of fucked-up dope addicts. In addition, I think there are two types of druggies, those who do it to escape from reality snip I never understood that _expression_, to escape from reality...How is that even possible? Provided you have a vaguely functioning and unadulturated brain, what you see around you is your effective reality. For whatever reason some people hate that and drugs can give you the illusion of being somewhere or somebody else. Cocaine makes you super confident, LSD is like sticking your head into another dimension. yeah, the reason I was never much into the hard drugs like those you listed, and others, was that it is always a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Whatever high was experienced was followed by a commensurate low. Yuck. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom, I agree with your (apparent) premise that kindness should flourish in our posts. My comment, though a bit smirky, was also a bit snarky. Perhaps best left unsaid. Was is Jesus who said He that snarks upon you, turn the other cheek.? A lot of wasted discussion appears to be people snarking back after having been snarked, leading to snark wars and worse. You're using snark when I think you mean to use snarky http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=snark http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=snarky Even if Turq or others make snarky and presumptuous comments to me, that does not give me the right to snark back. FFL deserves that higher standard of conduct. So I appreciate your kindess in bringing my snarkiness, albeit mild, to my attention. I vow to try to refrain from such in the future. Please feel free to bring any lapses of such to my attention. Thank you for your kind attention. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlist@ wrote: TorquiseB Snipped Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) Tom T Ed Zaktely. Some things never change. We change they don't. Tom T Tom, I am curious about your comment. It implies that you see some great rudeness, nastiness or sin in my comment below. I don't see it. Indeed it was a bit imitative of Barry's style -- a quick smirk of a comment -- (perhaps deserving of a smiley face) building on his phrasing I honestly think you are ... and hypothesing on his inner mental dynamics as he (mistakenly) did of mine. But I am touched by your kind attention. --- TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. And you hope that despite the fact that most of the enlightened throughout history have said just the opposite, that it *can't* be understood or described by the rational mind. --- new_morning_blank_slate wrote: See my adjacent posts. You will find your hypothesis is quite one-dimensional and off base. I honestly think you may be projecting here, projecting onto others an issue you are dealing with and are uncomfortable with your lack of internal resolution. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlist@ wrote: TorquiseB Snipped Dude, I took your new screen name at face value, and took you out of the Pissant Bin long enough for one test reply to see if you really had turned over a new leaf. Won't make that mistake again...back in the bin you go. :-) Tom T Ed Zaktely. Some things never change. We change they don't. Tom T Note, however, that in addition to responding to Barry's heavy snark with a bit of snark of his own, the poster made a number of substantive points. So Barry chose to pout about the snark and ignore the substance. As you say, some things never change. Yeah, like you not getting the exhaustive message from umpteen posters on this forum over the past week about not rising to the occasion and getting into the gutter with your alleged opponents. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate no_reply@ wrote: snip But these types of interpretations are more akin to poetry that is trying to describe love or beauty, not an internally- consistent and logical truth. What makes you believe that truth is either internally consistent or logical? Rather than the truth that enlightenment is *not* either internally consistent or logical? Beware the infinite regress; beware the category error. I mean, READ the words of those who have realized enlightenment over the centuries. They seem to be consistent only in the sense that they agree, when pinned down, that there is no internal consistency or logic that can be applied to the description of enlightenment. In fact, pretty much the only thing they agree on is that it can't be described. I honestly think that what you're *hoping* is that the description of enlightenment can be internally consis- tent and logical, so that you can understand it using the rational mind. And you hope that despite the fact that most of the enlightened throughout history have said just the opposite, that it *can't* be understood or described by the rational mind. In my view, this desire to understand is a natural phenomenon, but it's one that is based on the unenlight- ened self trying to survive, when in fact for enlight- enment to be realized, that limited intellectual self has to be discarded or, at the very least, ignored. What if enlightenment (or whatever you choose to call it) can NEVER be accurately measured or described? It seems to me that situation creates a couple of interesting Catch-22s. The first is that attempts *to* measure it or describe it accurately become exercises in pushing enlightenment away, not embracing its mysteries and inherent contradictions. Actually, for some, wrestling with the contradictions can be a path to realization as the intellect demonstrates to itself that it is not just not up to the challenge but fundamentally irrelevant, because the challenge itself--of understanding enlightenment-- is irrelevant and utterly meaningless. For the intellect to decide prematurely that enlightenment is inherently contradictory--on the basis, say, of having READ the words of those who have realized enlightenment over the centuries-- makes the experiential truth of its contradictory nature into a *concept* which the intellect can uphold. This can strengthen the intellect rather than leading it to convince itself--on its own terms-- that it is superfluous. One can, in other words, work both sides of the fence: repeatedly have the experience of the contradictory nature of enlightenment, while at the same time helping the intellect dig its own grave by forcing it to slam itself repeatedly against the contradictions until it knocks itself out. *Of course* the self is going to fight for its survival; that's a given, that's its nature. If it's an especially tough and hardy self, it may be more effective to cheer it on, to encourage it to exert itself to the point of exhaustion, than to try to suppress it. Different strokes for different folks. Yup, what she said! That may be why what is termed here on FFL as Neo-Advaitan talk has value for some beyond subtle the group think stuff. Challenging a sturdy intellect JohnY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam jpgillam@ wrote: --- Peter wrote: CC is the realization of one's identity as pure consciousness. It is not a state of mind, nor does it have anything to do with brain function. Brain function has to do with states of mind. CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it. All creation is inside it. It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. Thus, cosmic consciousness does not depend upon purification, acculturation or anything we can do to promote it? Is that a correct conclusion? Thanks. The *realization* of CC does not depend on the things you mention. However, the things you mention are necessary to build the foundation for CC, until CC is realized. Then it no longer matters. What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Nevermind... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip The rACC...plays a critical role in the awareness of the nastiness of pain: the feeling of dislike for it, a loathing so intense that you are immediately compelled to try to make it stop. Not awareness of pain, but awareness of the nastiness of pain. So someone in CC doesn't think that pain is nasty? Read it again, Lawson. ... Pain triggers responses in the brain. There may be some difference in how people in CC respond to pain, but I doubt if it has anyting to do with responding to pain as less nasty than it was prior to CC. Loathing so intense you're immediately compelled to try to make it stop doesn't sound like balanced in pleasure and pain to me. I'd suggest it wouldn't be a matter of CC shutting down the rACC, but rather of not triggering its activity in the first place. The rACC seems to be a mechanism for making you take action to neutralize whatever is causing the pain *because pain is often a signal that the integrity of the physical organism is being threatened*. And this would be a bad thing because? I said it would be a bad thing where? You seemed to be implying tha CC changed this response in some way as though that were a good thing. Not necessarily. It's an ignorance-type thing as opposed to a CC-type thing. For the ignorant, it's a *good* thing, because physical survival is required if you're gonna spread your genes, the Prime Directive of the state of ignorance. But if you aren't attached to the physical organism because you identify with the Self rather than the self, you don't need that alarm system to make you perceive the pain as intolerably unpleasant so you spring into action to neutralize it. Whatever is causing the pain is no longer a threat to your survival because you don't experience your physical survival as necessary for your existence. Which is a plain stupid thing for CC to do from an evolutionary perspectie and isn't supported by any research that I'm aware of. Has it ever *been* researched? Response to pain during meditation is being researched. Response to pain outside meditation is also being researched. I don't believe any evidence has been found that TM meditation (at least) changes the way the brain reacts to pain, at least in the sense of deactivating specific centers. OK. I'd just like to know whether they've looked specifically at the rACC. It isn't stupid; it allows you to make a *choice* about whether to pay attention to the pain and what's causing it, or just to ignore it, depending on the situation. In some cases that ability could actually *save* your life (I'm thinking, e.g., about the guy who sawed off his arm when it was caught between two rocks in an isolated place; if he hadn't done that, he'd have starved to death.) Yeah, but one doesn't have to deactivate certain centers of the brain in order to obtain that ability... Well, he had to neutralize, or at least lessen, the rACC response somehow, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to do it. snip There's no side effect to CC Sure there are, at least in the sense I'm using the term. I don't think so. CC is just the long-distance communication of the parts of the brain acting in a way that supports the experience of PC along with relative states. There are changes in how someone responds to various stimuli but they are not along the lines of shutting down normal brain centers. Not shutting down, in this case, but simply making unnecessary, at least that particular response. Maybe it's even selective in CC: the response is appropriate to the situation. If you're being burned at the stake for heresy, or nailed on a cross, with no chance of escaping, or you're in end-stage cancer, it would be minimal; if the painful situation is one you can do something about, it would be normal. Or maybe you can control it consciously because of the global connectivity aspect you go on to mention. : its just the brain better maintaining the global connectivity of Pure Consciousness along with the normal activation of various states whether major states like waking, dreaming and sleeping, or localized activiations like paying attention to music, thought or pain or pleasure. CC isn't something UNusual - - its just plain old normalcy at its most normal. The rACC or whatever doesn't change its activiation much, if any, in CC. And you know this how? Because there's no mention of it in any of the EEG and fMRI research findings on TC or CC that I hav heard of. One of the guys that
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: Wanna hear a great Tom Wolfe story? :-) I wasn't there for this one personally, but I know a couple of people who were and they vouch for its accuracy. Well, Tom decided he wanted to write a book on all these crazy hippies, so he managed to meet Kesey and get invited to the farm in Springfield, and then on the bus and to some of the other wacky places they went. But the whole time Tom is doing his New York number, which means that every day, in the midst of these stoned hippies, wearing everything from tie-dye to naked, he's walking around in his white suit, the one he's famous for. This goes on for some time, with Tom recording all the stuff he sees around him but not really being part of it. Finally, the guys on the farm had to move this enormous, wood-burning, pot-bellied stove from the barn into one of the houses. It was heavy. So heavy that the guys who lived there on the farm couldn't lift it, so they called to Tom for help. He pitched in, and between them they got the cast- iron stove to its new location. Then Tom looks down at his white New York suit and it's *covered* with black soot. Covered. He's stand- ing there, shocked, and Kesey notices and says, Well...y'know Tom...you can't mess with it without gettin' some of it on ya. Everyone cracks up, including Tom Wolfe. He fit in better after that. We had a similar scene in England in the 80's with some really heavy psychedelic bands, magic mushrooms and free festivals every weekend, much fun. Indeed. T'was a magical time... I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know. But I tend to believe what Robert Crumb says about the Sixties and it is something to the effect: the only good appeal of the Sixties was all the free love they were promising but when I showed up I didn't get any anyway. I did, so I have no complaints. :-) He hated the Sixties and he hated Rock and Roll. You should see Robert's collection of records -- he has literally thousands of 78s. He hasn't liked much of any music produced after 1930. :-) For all the talk of free love and the counterculure and the breaking down of barriers and all that, I found that Hippies were more into their appearances and cliques than any staid conservative-looking guy like Tom Wolfe. The counterculture was supposed to be about what's in your heart and not materialistic things but it was the Hippies who were very, very tribal when it came to what you looked like...and if you didn't look like them, they would shun you. Indeed, your anecdote above, Barry, speaks to that. Just because Wolfe wore a white suit and tie, he wasn't fully accepted; he had to get it dirty before he was. Naaah. It was Tom who held back and refused to be part of things; that was the whole point of the story and of Kesey's comment, and as far as I can tell, the reality of the situation. Tom Wolfe wanted to be an impartial observer for the purposes of his book, but the nature of the subject matter *required* partiality, *required* gettin' in there and doin' the things (and the drugs) you were writing about. As a result, his book (as much as I like parts of it) was to some extent a superficial look at the surface of that period, not a real picture of what it was like. The only chapter in the book (Kesey down in Mexico) that rings completely true for me wasn't written by Wolfe; Kesey wrote that one. But it was still a neat book, and captured a little of that strange time. As well, I think the drug culture of the Sixties created alot of misery and, basically, just a bunch of fucked-up dope addicts. It's your right to think that. Me, I think it was a period of hope. And I tend to value hope more than I value cynicism. Your mileage may vary. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know. . . . As well, I think the drug culture of the Sixties created alot of misery and, basically, just a bunch of fucked-up dope addicts. Just as another point, anyone who *was* there would tell you that what people *think* of when they think the Sixties really wasn't. They're thinking of the period from 1968 through the early Seventies, after the real Sixties were already long gone, dead and buried. Hippie died in 1967, and most of what the world knows of the hippie period was what the hangers-on did after that, pretending that it was still alive. Bad drugs and bad people entered the picture, and that later period was *never* what it pretended to be in the press. It was the attempted commercial- ization of and co-opting of an earlier phenomenon. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Peter wrote: CC is the realization of one's identity as pure consciousness. It is not a state of mind, nor does it have anything to do with brain function. Brain function has to do with states of mind. CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it. All creation is inside it. It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. Thus, cosmic consciousness does not depend upon purification, acculturation or anything we can do to promote it? Is that a correct conclusion? Thanks. The *realization* of CC does not depend on the things you mention. However, the things you mention are necessary to build the foundation for CC, until CC is realized. Then it no longer matters. I would add that the only change that can occur is in the relative. Thus all the techniques for enlightenment are actually misnomers. They are techniques that refine, purify, clarify relative aspects of mind that bring you to the doorstep of realization. The shift from a bound self to a non-localized Self is pure acausal grace that can not be enacted from the side of the bound mind. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Home is just a click away.� Make Yahoo! your home page now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/DHchtC/3FxNAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: Wanna hear a great Tom Wolfe story? :-) I wasn't there for this one personally, but I know a couple of people who were and they vouch for its accuracy. Well, Tom decided he wanted to write a book on all these crazy hippies, so he managed to meet Kesey and get invited to the farm in Springfield, and then on the bus and to some of the other wacky places they went. But the whole time Tom is doing his New York number, which means that every day, in the midst of these stoned hippies, wearing everything from tie-dye to naked, he's walking around in his white suit, the one he's famous for. This goes on for some time, with Tom recording all the stuff he sees around him but not really being part of it. Finally, the guys on the farm had to move this enormous, wood-burning, pot-bellied stove from the barn into one of the houses. It was heavy. So heavy that the guys who lived there on the farm couldn't lift it, so they called to Tom for help. He pitched in, and between them they got the cast- iron stove to its new location. Then Tom looks down at his white New York suit and it's *covered* with black soot. Covered. He's stand- ing there, shocked, and Kesey notices and says, Well...y'know Tom...you can't mess with it without gettin' some of it on ya. Everyone cracks up, including Tom Wolfe. He fit in better after that. We had a similar scene in England in the 80's with some really heavy psychedelic bands, magic mushrooms and free festivals every weekend, much fun. Indeed. T'was a magical time... I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know. But I tend to believe what Robert Crumb says about the Sixties and it is something to the effect: the only good appeal of the Sixties was all the free love they were promising but when I showed up I didn't get any anyway. I did, so I have no complaints. :-) He hated the Sixties and he hated Rock and Roll. You should see Robert's collection of records -- he has literally thousands of 78s. He hasn't liked much of any music produced after 1930. :-) For all the talk of free love and the counterculure and the breaking down of barriers and all that, I found that Hippies were more into their appearances and cliques than any staid conservative- looking guy like Tom Wolfe. The counterculture was supposed to be about what's in your heart and not materialistic things but it was the Hippies who were very, very tribal when it came to what you looked like...and if you didn't look like them, they would shun you. Indeed, your anecdote above, Barry, speaks to that. Just because Wolfe wore a white suit and tie, he wasn't fully accepted; he had to get it dirty before he was. Naaah. It was Tom who held back and refused to be part of things; that was the whole point of the story and of Kesey's comment, and as far as I can tell, the reality of the situation. Tom Wolfe wanted to be an impartial observer for the purposes of his book, but the nature of the subject matter *required* partiality, *required* gettin' in there and doin' the things (and the drugs) you were writing about. >From the way you describe the group above, for all their alleged sophistication, all they were doing was engaging in peer group pressure: unless you do what we're doing, you can't be one of us. It's also the pathology of weak, group-think drug addicts. To write about something does not require that one partake in or do the subject matter at hand...if that were so, one could never write about serial killing or other horrible things that are, necessarily, written about. As a result, his book (as much as I like parts of it) was to some extent a superficial look at the surface of that period, not a real picture of what it was like. The only chapter in the book (Kesey down in Mexico) that rings completely true for me wasn't written by Wolfe; Kesey wrote that one. But it was still a neat book, and captured a little of that strange time. As well, I think the drug culture of the Sixties created alot of misery and, basically, just a bunch of fucked-up dope addicts. It's your right to think that. Me, I think it was a period of hope. And I tend to value hope more than I value cynicism. Your mileage may vary. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: The thing I like most about the hippy/LSD revolution is that it was all started by the CIA looking for a truth drug, they performed experiments on volunteers, one of whom was Ken Kesey author of one flew over the cuckoos nest. He loved it and after reading stranger in a strange land by Heinlien he started a really wild commune and toured america on a old bus giving out LSD to all and sundry, the rest is history. Just wish I'd been there. Remember that old saying, If you can remember the Sixties you weren't there. I was there -- not on the bus (Further was its name) but at a few of the original Acid Tests -- and unfortunately the old saying is true...I can't tell you much about them. :-) Alot of those CIA experiments were done at the Royal Victoria Hospital in Montreal and it really fucked up alot of people (of course, they were mentally ill to begin with, so who knows how much damage was done...or, indeed, whether they ended up better than when they started?) The CIA did a lot of dubious experiments, some on the general public. In one I read about they set up a fake brothel with two-way mirrors and doped the hapless punters with acid to test their reactions. Apparently there were a lot of dangerously deranged people wandering about, including a CIA agent who had some acid slipped into his coffee as a joke, apparently the entire staff spent the day searching for him! Nice to know what your tax dollar is spent on eh? Sadly I doubt wether any mentally ill people would end up better after a good trip, it does tend to lay bare any underlying problems you have. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know. For all the talk of free love and the counterculure and the breaking down of barriers and all that, I found that Hippies were more into their appearances and cliques than any staid conservative-looking guy like Tom Wolfe. The counterculture was supposed to be about what's in your heart and not materialistic things but it was the Hippies who were very, very tribal when it came to what you looked like...and if you didn't look like them, they would shun you. Indeed, your anecdote above, Barry, speaks to that. Just because Wolfe wore a white suit and tie, he wasn't fully accepted; he had to get it dirty before he was. As well, I think the drug culture of the Sixties created alot of misery and, basically, just a bunch of fucked-up dope addicts. Drug cultures always end up creating misery, it seems so positive at first, a real breakthrough in what's possible with the mind and some of the best experiences you could imagine. But there is a price to pay, I know plenty of people who paid with everything. Me, I never took it too seriously but after regaining consciousness in an opium den in Egypt after a major bit of fear and loathing in the middle east I decided enough was enough and sought a more pure path. And after the first week of TM I never touched anything again. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know. For all the talk of free love and the counterculure and the breaking down of barriers and all that, I found that Hippies were more into their appearances and cliques than any staid conservative- looking guy like Tom Wolfe. The counterculture was supposed to be about what's in your heart and not materialistic things but it was the Hippies who were very, very tribal when it came to what you looked like...and if you didn't look like them, they would shun you. Indeed, your anecdote above, Barry, speaks to that. Just because Wolfe wore a white suit and tie, he wasn't fully accepted; he had to get it dirty before he was. As well, I think the drug culture of the Sixties created alot of misery and, basically, just a bunch of fucked-up dope addicts. Drug cultures always end up creating misery, it seems so positive at first, a real breakthrough in what's possible with the mind and some of the best experiences you could imagine. But there is a price to pay, I know plenty of people who paid with everything. Me, I never took it too seriously but after regaining consciousness in an opium den in Egypt after a major bit of fear and loathing in the middle east I decided enough was enough and sought a more pure path. And after the first week of TM I never touched anything again. The other thing to be aware of if taking drugs is the distinction between use and abuse. All too often we succumb to the adage, if a little is good, more must be better. However, other cultures, such as the American indian tribes of the Southwest US who use peyote, for example, use the drug properly in a formally defined religious context, with no apparent abuse. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: As well, I think the drug culture of the Sixties created alot of misery and, basically, just a bunch of fucked-up dope addicts. In addition, I think there are two types of druggies, those who do it to escape from reality and those who do to augment experience, and probably another group didn't give a toss about the philosophy and just had a good time! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's no side effect to CC: its just the brain better maintaining the global connectivity of Pure Consciousness along with the normal activation of various states whether major states like waking, dreaming and sleeping, or localized activiations like paying attention to music, thought or pain or pleasure. --- Peter wrote: CC is the realization of one's identity as pure consciousness. It is not a state of mind, nor does it have anything to do with brain function. Brain function has to do with states of mind. CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it. All creation is inside it. It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The *realization* of CC does not depend on the things you mention. However, the things you mention are necessary to build the foundation for CC, until CC is realized. Then it no longer matters. --- Peter wrote: I would add that the only change that can occur is in the relative. Thus all the techniques for enlightenment are actually misnomers. They are techniques that refine, purify, clarify relative aspects of mind that bring you to the doorstep of realization. The shift from a bound self to a non-localized Self is pure acausal grace that can not be enacted from the side of the bound mind. An interesting dialogue. Perhaps its a matter that somethings are beyond logic and words. But since you are using words and logic above, it would appear reasonable to expect the same such in your points. (Though I am open to why some of the above should be bound by logic and other parts not.) Re: bring you to the doorstep of realization. the things you mention are necessary to build the foundation for CC, until CC is realized. That CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it would imply that neither doorsteps nor foundations are necessary for IT. Nor for the realization of IT -- if the latter acutally is a distinction of significance. Though the loophole may be that IT is a catalytic type phenomenon. The catalyst is required for the reaction, but disappears and is not required for the new state. Or perhaps bootstrapping is apt description. IT Itself pulls ITself into ITs realization. Whether catalytic or bootstrpped, the process still a temporal phenomenon, IT was not and then IT was. That seems utterly inconsistant with the view that It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. Certainly if that is so, it must not be bound by temporal processes. And, IMO, its not a matter of, paraphrasing past points, the relative mind will never be able to conceptualize this ... so stop day dreaming and hypothesing what IT is like. Its a matter of describing an experience everyone has to some degree -- consciousness being alive within itself. Perhaps variations and imperfections of the experience of IT, consciousness being alive within itself explains some of the logical discrpency. IT certainly feels like IT is self-sufficient as if it has nothing to do with any aspect of the body, that nothing supports it. But are other interpretations possible? Such as, IT could absolutely feel like that, but indeed also have some physiological correlates? (which raises the issue are correlates simply similtaneous phenomenon, or causative?) Or, perhaps discussion of IT is a matter that is in all cases beyond logic and words. If so then it can be said that none of the points in the above posts are true and/or not true. In such a realm, it would seem quite arbitrary to give some statements discretionary importance and claims of (universal ?) truth over another. And in such a realm, any discussion that includes IT would be meaniningless and jibberish. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: As well, I think the drug culture of the Sixties created alot of misery and, basically, just a bunch of fucked-up dope addicts. In addition, I think there are two types of druggies, those who do it to escape from reality snip I never understood that _expression_, to escape from reality...How is that even possible? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Totally fascinating article (long) in the New York Times magazine. A few excerpts: My Pain, My Brain ... The area of the brain that the scanner focuses on is the rostral anterior cingulate cortex (rACC). The rACC (a quarter-size patch in the middle-front of the brain, the cingular cortex) plays a critical role in the awareness of the nastiness of pain: the feeling of dislike for it, a loathing so intense that you are immediately compelled to try to make it stop ...Patients who have undergone a radical surgical treatment occasionally used for pain (as well as for mental illness) called a cingulotomy, in which the rACC is partly destroyed, report that they are still aware of pain but that they don't mind it anymore. Their emotional response has receded Really worth reading the whole thing at: http://tinyurl.com/noo5e (That last bit reminds me of what MMY says about Jesus not suffering on the cross. Pain isn't suffering if you don't *mind* it--if it doesn't overshadow you?) That is interesting, It reminds me of a time I was out of my head on LSD and I became aware that I could change the way I responded to events, I could see my superego selecting responses to things out of a choice provided by my unconscious, it was pure Freud. I could conscioussly decide on a different course of action. The possibilities for treating mental illness or just achieving personal desires is amazing. Unfortunately I got distracted by the wallpaper and forgot to take notes. This raises the question, what inherently is pain -- and for that matter, pleasure? Relevant questions, both, for going beyond pleasure and pain. Both a stubbed toe and sex cause strong sensations. What is it in the sensation itelf that makes one good/pleasureable and another bad/painful? At some level, the sensation is just a sensation. At another level, the sensation is interpreted as good/bad, pleasure/pain. Thus, it raises the possibility that pain can be interpreted differently. Possibly as neutral. Possibly as pleasurable. Possibly not at all. The latter achievement being Byron Katisms on steroids. The sensation can just be and you can love what is. Evolution must have played a role in interpretative mechanisms. It stands to reason that species that felt great pleasure in stubbing their toes, hoofs orwhatever, and found pain in sex, did not survive as long as those with reverse wiring. Still, it is in the realm if wiring and programibility -- even if buried deep in our genes. I have experimented with this. Just feeling the sensation, and not buying into that the sensation is inherently painful, can be insightful and even startling. Or the sensation can be sent down a different track, making it pleasurable. a somewhat parallel example of this might be wild sex, (if I can remember back that far :) )where some actions are plesurable in sex, but would be painful and avoided outside of sex. Alternatively, food and sex can be interpreted as pain. (Which according to the upanishds - or some scripture - all things that begin in pleasure end in pain.) So if something ultimately is painful, one could interpret it as painful upfront. If thought can be seen as a wave of consciousness, a sensation has the same structure. By focusing in the totality of the sensation, and not labeling it (disallowing long-learned labeling from taking place), what remains is a vibrating wave of consciousness -- which seems to intensify the whole field of consciousness. Vaj probably wants to stick a nail in my foot to see if I yell. I probably would. The associations of pleasure and pain are deep. And seeing and controlling the interpretative switch is not automatic. It can be done, but, at least for now, takes some focus. And like balancing on a log, sometimes I can get knocked off and fall back into genetic interpretations. Plus, at some point, any high intensity sensation, pleasurable or painful, needs to be reigned in for fear of damaging the body. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- sparaig sparaig@ wrote: There's no side effect to CC: its just the brain better maintaining the global connectivity of Pure Consciousness along with the normal activation of various states whether major states like waking, dreaming and sleeping, or localized activiations like paying attention to music, thought or pain or pleasure. --- Peter wrote: CC is the realization of one's identity as pure consciousness. It is not a state of mind, nor does it have anything to do with brain function. Brain function has to do with states of mind. CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it. All creation is inside it. It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. --- jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: The *realization* of CC does not depend on the things you mention. However, the things you mention are necessary to build the foundation for CC, until CC is realized. Then it no longer matters. --- Peter wrote: I would add that the only change that can occur is in the relative. Thus all the techniques for enlightenment are actually misnomers. They are techniques that refine, purify, clarify relative aspects of mind that bring you to the doorstep of realization. The shift from a bound self to a non-localized Self is pure acausal grace that can not be enacted from the side of the bound mind. An interesting dialogue. Perhaps its a matter that somethings are beyond logic and words. But since you are using words and logic above, it would appear reasonable to expect the same such in your points. (Though I am open to why some of the above should be bound by logic and other parts not.) Re: bring you to the doorstep of realization. the things you mention are necessary to build the foundation for CC, until CC is realized. That CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it would imply that neither doorsteps nor foundations are necessary for IT. Nor for the realization of IT -- if the latter acutally is a distinction of significance. Right. Though the loophole may be that IT is a catalytic type phenomenon. The catalyst is required for the reaction, but disappears and is not required for the new state. Ed Zackerly. The realization of IT is completely independent of any steps we may take up until that point. Or perhaps bootstrapping is apt description. IT Itself pulls ITself into ITs realization. Ed Zackerly. Whether catalytic or bootstrpped, the process still a temporal phenomenon, IT was not and then IT was. That seems utterly inconsistant with the view that It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. Certainly if that is so, it must not be bound by temporal processes. Its not about IT was not and then IT was. IT always was-- we just didn't see IT before, or IT didn't allow itself to be seen before. And, IMO, its not a matter of, paraphrasing past points, the relative mind will never be able to conceptualize this ... so stop day dreaming and hypothesing what IT is like. Its a matter of describing an experience everyone has to some degree -- consciousness being alive within itself. Right. Everyone has the experience to one degree or another. And then we have the total experience, the total surrender- IT reveals itself to IT. Perhaps variations and imperfections of the experience of IT, consciousness being alive within itself explains some of the logical discrpency. Ed Zackerly. Variations. Analagous to all rivers being made of flowing water, but each one unique due to the landscape. The water in every case though is H2O (ache-to-Oh!). IT certainly feels like IT is self-sufficient as if it has nothing to do with any aspect of the body, that nothing supports it. But are other interpretations possible? Such as, IT could absolutely feel like that, but indeed also have some physiological correlates? (which raises the issue are correlates simply similtaneous phenomenon, or causative?) Either no physiological corrrelates OR all phsiological correlates are the only two choices; either the infinity of all or the infinity of nothing. Or, perhaps discussion of IT is a matter that is in all cases beyond logic and words. Discussion isn't, but ultimate definition is. Unless we include all of the words that exist, in our definition... If so then it can be said that none of the points in the above posts are true and/or not true. All of the points in the above posts that you refer to are true for IT. If we don't recognize ourselves as wholly IT, we recognize their truth to the degree that we recognize ourselves as IT. In such a realm, it would seem quite arbitrary to give some statements discretionary importance and claims of (universal ?) truth over another. Only if WE are
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate Perhaps variations and imperfections of the [INTERPRETATION of the] experience of IT, consciousness being alive within itself explains some of the logical discrpency. IT certainly feels like IT is self-sufficient as if it has nothing to do with any aspect of the body, that nothing supports it. But are other interpretations possible? Such as, IT could absolutely feel like that, but indeed also have some physiological correlates? (which raises the issue are correlates simply similtaneous phenomenon, or causative?) I left out an important word now in [brackets]. I will delete the original post and repost with the correction. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
My points, interspersed are not meant as argumentative. But they seek to put in fuller light some delicious contradictions still remaining. Which may be real, or artifacts of language or loopy logic. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it would imply that neither doorsteps nor foundations are necessary for IT. Nor for the realization of IT -- if the latter acutally is a distinction of significance. Right. Though the loophole may be that IT is a catalytic type phenomenon. The catalyst is required for the reaction, but disappears and is not required for the new state. Ed Zackerly. The realization of IT is completely independent of any steps we may take up until that point. That the goal and path are quite different is reasonable if not obvious. But the issue is, IMO, is the path necessary to reach the goal? To most, the question is silly, and the answer (to them) is obvious. However, that does not make it true. Per Patrick's question, yours and Peter's original statements imply that any practice -- the path -- is not necesary. But, IMO, you and Peter sort of dance around that with discussions that imply that foundations and doorsteps are necessary for realizing IT, but the practice or path to bring about foundations and doorsteps is not. My point is that either i) practice (path) is useful in preparing the foundation and doorstep or ii) its not. And that foundation and doorstep are i) necessary for realization, or ii) they are not. Or, per my later points, one can take up a different dance around the floor (and issue), and can deny logic is valid in this realm and invoke Jaimani -- all is paradox in this realm. That dance is fine, if gracefully done. But then it leads to the later points in the referenced post -- ~then nothing can be said that is true about IT -- because it is a paradox and the same thing can said to be false. Thus any discussion of it can be reduced to jibberish. (Which may be correct. But also necessarily false I guess too. Which is jibberish. See my point?) Or perhaps bootstrapping is apt description. IT Itself pulls ITself into ITs realization. Ed Zackerly. Whether catalytic or bootstrpped, the process still a temporal phenomenon, IT was not and then IT was. That seems utterly inconsistant with the view that It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. Certainly if that is so, it must not be bound by temporal processes. Its not about IT was not and then IT was. IT always was My implied point was that IT always was. Thats the contradiction I was raising. If IT is beyond boundaries, IT is beyond time and does not come and go, does not not Be and then BE. So we are saying the same thing to this point. (aka A) we just didn't see IT before, But if that is so, then there is something that we did or became or refined or whatever to see IT. Which implies path and practice. And something that supports the experience of IT, which was not there before. But Peter's original post (aka B) appears to deny this. Thus in the realm of logic, you can't have both A and B as true. So again, denying logic and proposing the similtenaity of truth and falseness with all statements of IT is fine, but if hatis true, it needs to be applied across the board. Thus, IF one is going down THAT path, Peter's and your original statements about the independecne of IT from any relative structure are true. But also can be FALSE. Thus, if you go down this road, all discussions of IT can be reduced to jibberish. or IT didn't allow itself to be seen before. An IT that changes, that winks, that plays hide and seek? That sounds pretty much like a relative structure, not an eternal IT. Perhaps variations and imperfections of the [INTERPRETATION of the] experience of IT, consciousness being alive within itself explains some of the logical discrpency. The above, [in brackets], is an important phrase I left out of the origianl post. Ed Zackerly. Variations. Analagous to all rivers being made of flowing water, but each one unique due to the landscape. The water in every case though is H2O (ache-to-Oh!). My point has to do with alternative, and sometimes perhaps, erroneous interpretations of the experience of IT. For example, below. It may feel like IT has no physiological basis, but that may be a misinterpretation of the experience, it may indeed have such a physiogical basis. We can swear the sun rises from the edge of the earth, rises and circles the earth, but damned, no matter how OBVIOUS that is, its not so. IT certainly feels like IT is self-sufficient as if it has nothing to do with any aspect of the body, that nothing supports it. But are other interpretations possible? Such as, IT could absolutely feel like that, but indeed also have some physiological correlates?
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The shift from a bound self to a non-localized Self is pure acausal grace that can not be enacted from the side of the bound mind. And if the shift occurs, and there is something acausal, then what does the acausal thing have to do with the shift? This appear so be a non-statment. Or one of no consequence. A has nothing to do with B. B shifts. (So why bring up A?) If the grace is causal, then on one level, there is some meaning in the statement. But grace implies something outside of IT. Thus its support on someting. Which contradicts prior statements. It sounds like these statements of this genre are personal interpretations of an experience. They may be correct, clear, insightful interpretations, they may be fuzzy, inconsistent and distoreted. But they make sense to the interpreter. Like I intepret the sun rising every morning. It works for me. It IS what I see. It resonates with me. But I know its an incorrect interpretation of whats really going on. But these types of interpretations are more akin to poetry that is trying to describe love or beauty, not an internally-consistent and logical truth. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate Perhaps variations and imperfections of the [INTERPRETATION of the] experience of IT, consciousness being alive within itself explains some of the logical discrpency. IT certainly feels like IT is self-sufficient as if it has nothing to do with any aspect of the body, that nothing supports it. Right-- consciousness alive within itself is self-sufficient. But are other interpretations possible? Such as, IT could absolutely feel like that, but indeed also have some physiological correlates? Yes, it expresses itself through the physiology also, self- sufficently. The issue isn't where IT expresses itself, it is our complete realization that the _expression_ is occurring, by itself, self- sufficiently, through whatever vehicle has realized that IT is itself. (which raises the issue are correlates simply similtaneous phenomenon, or causative?) IT is the simultaneous phenomenon, and all the causitive correlates are IT also. In the second case, IT causes itself. Again, we are fooled into thinking we are the cause of IT, when in fact, IT is the cause of IT. We just don't realize IT when we are fooled into thinking we are the cause of IT. I left out an important word now in [brackets]. I will delete the original post and repost with the correction. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam jpgillam@ wrote: --- Peter wrote: CC is the realization of one's identity as pure consciousness. It is not a state of mind, nor does it have anything to do with brain function. Brain function has to do with states of mind. CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it. All creation is inside it. It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. Thus, cosmic consciousness does not depend upon purification, acculturation or anything we can do to promote it? Is that a correct conclusion? Thanks. The *realization* of CC does not depend on the things you mention. However, the things you mention are necessary to build the foundation for CC, until CC is realized. Then it no longer matters. I would add that the only change that can occur is in the relative. Thus all the techniques for enlightenment are actually misnomers. They are techniques that refine, purify, clarify relative aspects of mind that bring you to the doorstep of realization. The shift from a bound self to a non-localized Self is pure acausal grace that can not be enacted from the side of the bound mind. Which is TM in a nutshell, from a religious perspective. Do less and accomplish more --do nothing and accomplish everything. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] However, other cultures, such as the American indian tribes of the Southwest US who use peyote, for example, use the drug properly in a formally defined religious context, with no apparent abuse. Matter of opinion as to whether or not there is abuse of peyote... ...I mean, everyone knows of the Catholic priest who nips a little too much of the sacramental wine on occassion. Why would American Indians be exceptional here? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam jpgillam@ wrote: --- Peter wrote: CC is the realization of one's identity as pure consciousness. It is not a state of mind, nor does it have anything to do with brain function. Brain function has to do with states of mind. CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it. All creation is inside it. It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. Thus, cosmic consciousness does not depend upon purification, acculturation or anything we can do to promote it? Is that a correct conclusion? Thanks. The *realization* of CC does not depend on the things you mention. However, the things you mention are necessary to build the foundation for CC, until CC is realized. Then it no longer matters. I would add that the only change that can occur is in the relative. Thus all the techniques for enlightenment are actually misnomers. They are techniques that refine, purify, clarify relative aspects of mind that bring you to the doorstep of realization. The shift from a bound self to a non-localized Self is pure acausal grace that can not be enacted from the side of the bound mind. Which is TM in a nutshell, from a religious perspective. Do less and accomplish more --do nothing and accomplish everything. No. TM is a technique that regenerates a rajasic or a tamasic dominated mind to a sattvic mind. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Protect your PC from spy ware with award winning anti spy technology. It's free. http://us.click.yahoo.com/97bhrC/LGxNAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam jpgillam@ wrote: --- Peter wrote: CC is the realization of one's identity as pure consciousness. It is not a state of mind, nor does it have anything to do with brain function. Brain function has to do with states of mind. CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it. All creation is inside it. It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. What you say sounds right, and I hope it is true, but how do you really know that CC has nothing to do with brain function? How do you know that the experience that consciousness is separate from the body is more than just a sense created by the brain? I am asking this because I want to know, not to be difficult. This is what I wonder about alot. Thus, cosmic consciousness does not depend upon purification, acculturation or anything we can do to promote it? Is that a correct conclusion? Thanks. The *realization* of CC does not depend on the things you mention. However, the things you mention are necessary to build the foundation for CC, until CC is realized. Then it no longer matters. I would add that the only change that can occur is in the relative. Thus all the techniques for enlightenment are actually misnomers. They are techniques that refine, purify, clarify relative aspects of mind that bring you to the doorstep of realization. The shift from a bound self to a non-localized Self is pure acausal grace that can not be enacted from the side of the bound mind. No. TM is a technique that regenerates a rajasic or a tamasic dominated mind to a sattvic mind. I like the way you put this. Also, Dr. Pete, in the last few months your posts are somewhat different than they once were - not better or worse- just more direct, maybe less patient with TM. Clear and bold. Just an observation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Protect your PC from spy ware with award winning anti spy technology. It's free. http://us.click.yahoo.com/97bhrC/LGxNAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
What you say sounds right, and I hope it is true, but how do you really know that CC has nothing to do with brain function? How do you know that the experience that consciousness is separate from the body is more than just a sense created by the brain? I am asking this because I want to know, not to be difficult. This is what I wonder about alot. Maharishi talk about 'Whole Brain Functioning' Many of the studies that have been done, on people experiencing 'Witnessing' or CC is that the brain is functioning in a coherent way. Maharishi has always said that there are physical correlates to 'states of consciousness' There are other methods of culturing 'whole brain functioning: Check out: centerpointe.com/ and the use of holosync technology to produce coherent brain functioning. It makes sense that you have to come to the point, eventually on the spiritual path of purification, and transcending thought, feeling, intellect, and ego; So, finally the mind can settle to the point, where there are no relative states; The mind has to finally settle down completely. And then the still mind can be in a state of 'Knowingness' When the mind is in the state of knowingness, it is still. A still mind eventually settles to a still Heart The heart is considered to be the 'Seat of the Soul' So, we eventually realize or wake-up to what we are: A soul inhabiting a body. At that point it is proper to suggest that the soul, doesn't depend on anything for it's existence. Nonetheless, the soul can only be 'realized' when the body, mind and heart are purified enough... That we realize We are in the world but not of it And like Maharishi says, and what Jesus was preaching is from this soul experience, as the soul is not bounded by space or time or anything else. And we are identifying with the soul, and have transcended the ego, Then we have made the shift. And as more of us experiece this shift happening; Huge changes in the relative, material world, or thoughts, feelings, and matter; Will adjust itself to present a new reality, of Unity. Unity is only available on the level of consiousness. Eckhart Tolle, has said that this evolution is necissary now, For survival. I believe Maharishi has said the same. We are at a point in human evolution, where enlightenment is not a luxury, but a neccesity... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: [...] I would add that the only change that can occur is in the relative. Thus all the techniques for enlightenment are actually misnomers. They are techniques that refine, purify, clarify relative aspects of mind that bring you to the doorstep of realization. The shift from a bound self to a non-localized Self is pure acausal grace that can not be enacted from the side of the bound mind. Which is TM in a nutshell, from a religious perspective. Do less and accomplish more --do nothing and accomplish everything. No. TM is a technique that regenerates a rajasic or a tamasic dominated mind to a sattvic mind. So you say,,, To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you say sounds right, and I hope it is true, but how do you really know that CC has nothing to do with brain function? How do you know that the experience that consciousness is separate from the body is more than just a sense created by the brain? I am asking this because I want to know, not to be difficult. This is what I wonder about alot. Maharishi talk about 'Whole Brain Functioning' Many of the studies that have been done, on people experiencing 'Witnessing' or CC is that the brain is functioning in a coherent way. Maharishi has always said that there are physical correlates to 'states of consciousness' There are other methods of culturing 'whole brain functioning: Check out: centerpointe.com/ and the use of holosync technology to produce coherent brain functioning. And the evidence that holosynch technology produces the same effect(s) as TM is found... where? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Totally fascinating article (long) in the New York Times magazine. A few excerpts: That is interesting, It reminds me of a time I was out of my head on LSD and I became aware that I could change the way I responded to events, I could see my superego selecting responses to things out of a choice provided by my unconscious, it was pure Freud. I could conscioussly decide on a different course of action. The possibilities for treating mental illness or just achieving personal desires is amazing. Unfortunately I got distracted by the wallpaper and forgot to take notes. My Pain, My Brain By MELANIE THERNSTROM Published: May 14, 2006 Who hasn't wished she could watch her brain at work and make changes to it, the way a painter steps back from a painting, studies it and decides to make the sky a different hue? If only we could spell- check our brain like a text, or reprogram it like a computer to eliminate glitches like pain, depression and learning disabilities. Would we one day become completely transparent to ourselves, and fully conscious of consciousness consciously create ourselves as we like?... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Totally fascinating article (long) in the New York Times magazine. A few excerpts: That is interesting, It reminds me of a time I was out of my head on LSD and I became aware that I could change the way I responded to events, I could see my superego selecting responses to things out of a choice provided by my unconscious, it was pure Freud. I could conscioussly decide on a different course of action. The possibilities for treating mental illness or just achieving personal desires is amazing. Unfortunately I got distracted by the wallpaper and forgot to take notes. grin Apparently the LSD researchers who had to abort their research when LSD became illegal thought they were on the verge of major breakthroughs in treating mental illness. Besides reminding me of witnessing experiences, what she describes also reminded me very much of what it's like to be under laughing gas at the dentist. Choice per se doesn't seem to be involved (unless knowing that you're getting laughing gas invokes some kind of placebo effect), but the experience, or at least my experience, was of feeling pain but not *minding* it, just as the reporter says. Very blissful too, which I suppose is why it's called laughing gas. My Pain, My Brain By MELANIE THERNSTROM Published: May 14, 2006 Who hasn't wished she could watch her brain at work and make changes to it, the way a painter steps back from a painting, studies it and decides to make the sky a different hue? If only we could spell- check our brain like a text, or reprogram it like a computer to eliminate glitches like pain, depression and learning disabilities. Would we one day become completely transparent to ourselves, and fully conscious of consciousness consciously create ourselves as we like?... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Totally fascinating article (long) in the New York Times magazine. A few excerpts: My Pain, My Brain By MELANIE THERNSTROM Published: May 14, 2006 Who hasn't wished she could watch her brain at work and make changes to it, the way a painter steps back from a painting, studies it and decides to make the sky a different hue? If only we could spell- check our brain like a text, or reprogram it like a computer to eliminate glitches like pain, depression and learning disabilities. Would we one day become completely transparent to ourselves, and fully conscious of consciousness consciously create ourselves as we like?... Over six sessions, volunteers are being asked to try to increase and decrease their pain while watching the activation of a part of their brain involved in pain perception and modulation. This real-time imaging lets them assess how well they are succeeding. Dr. Sean Mackey, the study's senior investigator and the director of the Neuroimaging and Pain Lab at Stanford, explained that the results of the study's first phase...showed that while looking at the brain, subjects can learn to control its activation in a way that regulates their pain. While this may be likened to biofeedback, traditional biofeedback provides indirect measures of brain activity through information about heart rate, skin temperature and other autonomic functions, or even EEG waves. Mackey's approach allows subjects to interact with the brain itself. It is the mind-body problem right there on the screen, one of Mackey's collaborators, Christopher deCharms...told me later. We are doing something that people have wanted to do for thousands of years. Descartes said, 'I think, therefore I am.' Now we're watching that process as it unfolds How does it work? I want to ask. Just as people were once puzzled by Freud's talking cure (how does describing problems solve them?), the Stanford study makes us wonder: How can one part of our brain control another by looking at it? Who is the me controlling my brain, then? It seems to deepen the mind-body problem, widening the old Cartesian divide by splitting the self into subject and agent The area of the brain that the scanner focuses on is the rostral anterior cingulate cortex (rACC). The rACC (a quarter-size patch in the middle-front of the brain, the cingular cortex) plays a critical role in the awareness of the nastiness of pain: the feeling of dislike for it, a loathing so intense that you are immediately compelled to try to make it stop ...Patients who have undergone a radical surgical treatment occasionally used for pain (as well as for mental illness) called a cingulotomy, in which the rACC is partly destroyed, report that they are still aware of pain but that they don't mind it anymore. Their emotional response has receded Really worth reading the whole thing at: http://tinyurl.com/noo5e (That last bit reminds me of what MMY says about Jesus not suffering on the cross. Pain isn't suffering if you don't *mind* it--if it doesn't overshadow you?) Probably not due to the same mechanism --not even remotely. Witnessing waking, dreaming and sleeping likely don't have any effect on the functioning of the rostral anterior cingulate cortex. Any in CC not minding of pain isn't due not feeling or caring about the pain, but simply due to the strength of the connections that give rise the CC state in the first place. I'm not sure what you're referring to by connections, but I don't know why shutting down the rACC couldn't be a side effect of CC. I wasn't suggesting that disabling the rACC somehow invoked CC, but rather the reverse. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Totally fascinating article (long) in the New York Times magazine. A few excerpts: That is interesting, It reminds me of a time I was out of my head on LSD and I became aware that I could change the way I responded to events, I could see my superego selecting responses to things out of a choice provided by my unconscious, it was pure Freud. I could conscioussly decide on a different course of action. The possibilities for treating mental illness or just achieving personal desires is amazing. Unfortunately I got distracted by the wallpaper and forgot to take notes. grin Apparently the LSD researchers who had to abort their research when LSD became illegal thought they were on the verge of major breakthroughs in treating mental illness. Besides reminding me of witnessing experiences, what she describes also reminded me very much of what it's like to be under laughing gas at the dentist. Choice per se doesn't seem to be involved (unless knowing that you're getting laughing gas invokes some kind of placebo effect), but the experience, or at least my experience, was of feeling pain but not *minding* it, just as the reporter says. Very blissful too, which I suppose is why it's called laughing gas. Is it possible that in the case of masochists pain induces euphoria? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Totally fascinating article (long) in the New York Times magazine. A few excerpts: That is interesting, It reminds me of a time I was out of my head on LSD and I became aware that I could change the way I responded to events, I could see my superego selecting responses to things out of a choice provided by my unconscious, it was pure Freud. I could conscioussly decide on a different course of action. The possibilities for treating mental illness or just achieving personal desires is amazing. Unfortunately I got distracted by the wallpaper and forgot to take notes. grin Apparently the LSD researchers who had to abort their research when LSD became illegal thought they were on the verge of major breakthroughs in treating mental illness. Besides reminding me of witnessing experiences, what she describes also reminded me very much of what it's like to be under laughing gas at the dentist. Choice per se doesn't seem to be involved (unless knowing that you're getting laughing gas invokes some kind of placebo effect), but the experience, or at least my experience, was of feeling pain but not *minding* it, just as the reporter says. Very blissful too, which I suppose is why it's called laughing gas. Is it possible that in the case of masochists pain induces euphoria? Well, pain is apparently associated with sexual arousal in masochists. Not sure that's the same as euphoria. My experience of laughing gas, though, is that the pain stays in the background; it doesn't attract my attention, although I can tell it's there if I think about it. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: [...] Probably not due to the same mechanism --not even remotely. Witnessing waking, dreaming and sleeping likely don't have any effect on the functioning of the rostral anterior cingulate cortex. Any in CC not minding of pain isn't due not feeling or caring about the pain, but simply due to the strength of the connections that give rise the CC state in the first place. I'm not sure what you're referring to by connections, but I don't know why shutting down the rACC couldn't be a side effect of CC. I wasn't suggesting that disabling the rACC somehow invoked CC, but rather the reverse. Connections as in neural connections. CC doesn't appear to have anything to do with shutting down any specific part of the brain, but rather with strengthening the long- distance communications of the various parts of the brain in such a way as to support what TMers call witnessing. OTHER forms of meditation appear to often reduce (or increase'0 the activity of spec ific parts of the brain beyond the normal range of activity outside of meditation, but TM doesn't appear to have that effect. It has the effect of *balancing* the activity of various parts of the brain. During TM, there appears to be some effect of reducing sensory processing, but that isn't one of the correlates of witnessing during waking, but rather the way in which TM enhances restfulness DURING meditation. Any change in how the brain handles pain in someone in CC probably has nothing to do with changes in how the brain processes pain _per se_, but in how the brain processes ANY strong stimulus: the strong stimulus doesn't overwhelm the brain's ability to maintain the long-distance coherent state that apparently characterizes CC-witnessing. The brain still feels pain the same as always --it just doesn't overshadow the global coherence state. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] My experience of laughing gas, though, is that the pain stays in the background; it doesn't attract my attention, although I can tell it's there if I think about it. Laughing gas apparently has the effect of shutting down consciousness, period, at least past a certain dosage level. I think its supposed to shut off the nerve cells' ability to process incoming signals. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: [...] Probably not due to the same mechanism --not even remotely. Witnessing waking, dreaming and sleeping likely don't have any effect on the functioning of the rostral anterior cingulate cortex. Any in CC not minding of pain isn't due not feeling or caring about the pain, but simply due to the strength of the connections that give rise the CC state in the first place. I'm not sure what you're referring to by connections, but I don't know why shutting down the rACC couldn't be a side effect of CC. I wasn't suggesting that disabling the rACC somehow invoked CC, but rather the reverse. Connections as in neural connections. CC doesn't appear to have anything to do with shutting down any specific part of the brain, but rather with strengthening the long-distance communications of the various parts of the brain in such a way as to support what TMers call witnessing. snip Any change in how the brain handles pain in someone in CC probably has nothing to do with changes in how the brain processes pain _per se_, but in how the brain processes ANY strong stimulus: the strong stimulus doesn't overwhelm the brain's ability to maintain the long- distance coherent state that apparently characterizes CC- witnessing. The brain still feels pain the same as always --it just doesn't overshadow the global coherence state. But read what the reporter says about the rACC again: The rACC...plays a critical role in the awareness of the nastiness of pain: the feeling of dislike for it, a loathing so intense that you are immediately compelled to try to make it stop. Not awareness of pain, but awareness of the nastiness of pain. I'd suggest it wouldn't be a matter of CC shutting down the rACC, but rather of not triggering its activity in the first place. The rACC seems to be a mechanism for making you take action to neutralize whatever is causing the pain *because pain is often a signal that the integrity of the physical organism is being threatened*. But if you aren't attached to the physical organism because you identify with the Self rather than the self, you don't need that alarm system to make you perceive the pain as intolerably unpleasant so you spring into action to neutralize it. Whatever is causing the pain is no longer a threat to your survival because you don't experience your physical survival as necessary for your existence. So the rACC, or at least its function of making pain unpleasant (it may have other functions), would become irrelevant as a kind of side effect of CC, in this formulation. There's no longer a *need* for pain to be an overwhelming sensation. Just a guess... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: [...] My experience of laughing gas, though, is that the pain stays in the background; it doesn't attract my attention, although I can tell it's there if I think about it. Laughing gas apparently has the effect of shutting down consciousness, period, at least past a certain dosage level. I guess I never had that heavy a dose, because I've always remained conscious. It's sort of a dreamy consciousness in which what's happening to me seems to take place at a distance; I know it's going on but I'm not involved in it, just casually observing it, and that only if I decide to attend to it. Very much like witnessing in that sense, at least in my experience. I've also had anesthesia during oral surgery that *did* shut down consciousness completely, so that I had no sense of time elapsing between the time I went under and when I woke up. But that wasn't laughing gas (nitrous oxide). I think its supposed to shut off the nerve cells' ability to process incoming signals. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Totally fascinating article (long) in the New York Times magazine. A few excerpts: That is interesting, It reminds me of a time I was out of my head on LSD and I became aware that I could change the way I responded to events, I could see my superego selecting responses to things out of a choice provided by my unconscious, it was pure Freud. I could conscioussly decide on a different course of action. The possibilities for treating mental illness or just achieving personal desires is amazing. Unfortunately I got distracted by the wallpaper and forgot to take notes. grin Apparently the LSD researchers who had to abort their research when LSD became illegal thought they were on the verge of major breakthroughs in treating mental illness. The thing I like most about the hippy/LSD revolution is that it was all started by the CIA looking for a truth drug, they performed experiments on volunteers, one of whom was Ken Kesey author of one flew over the cuckoos nest. He loved it and after reading stranger in a strange land by Heinlien he started a really wild commune and toured america on a old bus giving out LSD to all and sundry, the rest is history. Just wish I'd been there. Besides reminding me of witnessing experiences, what she describes also reminded me very much of what it's like to be under laughing gas at the dentist. I know you're going to laugh, considering my last post, but I've only been to the dentist twice in the last twenty years and have never had gas. Sounds like I'm missing out though. Choice per se doesn't seem to be involved (unless knowing that you're getting laughing gas invokes some kind of placebo effect), but the experience, or at least my experience, was of feeling pain but not *minding* it, just as the reporter says. Very blissful too, which I suppose is why it's called laughing gas. My Pain, My Brain By MELANIE THERNSTROM Published: May 14, 2006 Who hasn't wished she could watch her brain at work and make changes to it, the way a painter steps back from a painting, studies it and decides to make the sky a different hue? If only we could spell- check our brain like a text, or reprogram it like a computer to eliminate glitches like pain, depression and learning disabilities. Would we one day become completely transparent to ourselves, and fully conscious of consciousness consciously create ourselves as we like?... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing I like most about the hippy/LSD revolution is that it was all started by the CIA looking for a truth drug, they performed experiments on volunteers, one of whom was Ken Kesey author of one flew over the cuckoos nest. He loved it and after reading stranger in a strange land by Heinlien he started a really wild commune and toured america on a old bus giving out LSD to all and sundry, the rest is history. Just wish I'd been there. Remember that old saying, If you can remember the Sixties you weren't there. I was there -- not on the bus (Further was its name) but at a few of the original Acid Tests -- and unfortunately the old saying is true...I can't tell you much about them. :-) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip Apparently the LSD researchers who had to abort their research when LSD became illegal thought they were on the verge of major breakthroughs in treating mental illness. The thing I like most about the hippy/LSD revolution is that it was all started by the CIA looking for a truth drug, they performed experiments on volunteers, one of whom was Ken Kesey author of one flew over the cuckoos nest. He loved it and after reading stranger in a strange land by Heinlien he started a really wild commune and toured america on a old bus giving out LSD to all and sundry, the rest is history. Just wish I'd been there. Terrific AP story about the bus and its adventures: http://tinyurl.com/mbybd Has a great photo of Kesey with the bus, overgrown with moss after he'd towed it into a swamp when he finally retired it. His son wants to restore it and send it out again, but I think I agree with Kesey's widow that it ought to stay where it is, becoming part of the swamp, as she puts it. Besides reminding me of witnessing experiences, what she describes also reminded me very much of what it's like to be under laughing gas at the dentist. I know you're going to laugh, considering my last post, but I've only been to the dentist twice in the last twenty years I guess you must do a pretty good job with the monkey wrench, then... and have never had gas. Sounds like I'm missing out though. It's an interesting experience. It would be a lot more fun in a non-dentist setting, though. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: The thing I like most about the hippy/LSD revolution is that it was all started by the CIA looking for a truth drug, they performed experiments on volunteers, one of whom was Ken Kesey author of one flew over the cuckoos nest. He loved it and after reading stranger in a strange land by Heinlien he started a really wild commune and toured america on a old bus giving out LSD to all and sundry, the rest is history. Just wish I'd been there. Remember that old saying, If you can remember the Sixties you weren't there. I was there -- not on the bus (Further was its name) but at a few of the original Acid Tests -- and unfortunately the old saying is true...I can't tell you much about them. :-) You were actually there! Far out man! Birth of the grateful dead and everything. Must've been a hell of a party. Did you ever read The electric kool-aid acid test by Tom Wolfe? it should brings it back to life for you, a great book. He was on the bus and he managed to take notes! We had a similar scene in England in the 80's with some really heavy psychedelic bands, magic mushrooms and free festivals every weekend, much fun. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: The thing I like most about the hippy/LSD revolution is that it was all started by the CIA looking for a truth drug, they performed experiments on volunteers, one of whom was Ken Kesey author of one flew over the cuckoos nest. He loved it and after reading stranger in a strange land by Heinlien he started a really wild commune and toured america on a old bus giving out LSD to all and sundry, the rest is history. Just wish I'd been there. Remember that old saying, If you can remember the Sixties you weren't there. I was there -- not on the bus (Further was its name) but at a few of the original Acid Tests -- and unfortunately the old saying is true...I can't tell you much about them. :-) You were actually there! Far out man! Birth of the grateful dead and everything. Must've been a hell of a party. It was. I remember far more than I let on. I just didn't want anyone to think I remembered the Sixties and thus wasn't there. :-) Did you ever read The electric kool-aid acid test by Tom Wolfe? it should brings it back to life for you, a great book. He was on the bus and he managed to take notes! Wanna hear a great Tom Wolfe story? :-) I wasn't there for this one personally, but I know a couple of people who were and they vouch for its accuracy. Well, Tom decided he wanted to write a book on all these crazy hippies, so he managed to meet Kesey and get invited to the farm in Springfield, and then on the bus and to some of the other wacky places they went. But the whole time Tom is doing his New York number, which means that every day, in the midst of these stoned hippies, wearing everything from tie-dye to naked, he's walking around in his white suit, the one he's famous for. This goes on for some time, with Tom recording all the stuff he sees around him but not really being part of it. Finally, the guys on the farm had to move this enormous, wood-burning, pot-bellied stove from the barn into one of the houses. It was heavy. So heavy that the guys who lived there on the farm couldn't lift it, so they called to Tom for help. He pitched in, and between them they got the cast- iron stove to its new location. Then Tom looks down at his white New York suit and it's *covered* with black soot. Covered. He's stand- ing there, shocked, and Kesey notices and says, Well...y'know Tom...you can't mess with it without gettin' some of it on ya. Everyone cracks up, including Tom Wolfe. He fit in better after that. We had a similar scene in England in the 80's with some really heavy psychedelic bands, magic mushrooms and free festivals every weekend, much fun. Indeed. T'was a magical time... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip Terrific AP story about the bus and its adventures: http://tinyurl.com/mbybd Has a great photo of Kesey with the bus, overgrown with moss after he'd towed it into a swamp when he finally retired it. His son wants to restore it and send it out again, but I think I agree with Kesey's widow that it ought to stay where it is, becoming part of the swamp, as she puts it. Cheers for that, great story. I would definitely restore it, it's an important part of pop culture history. And maybe they should drive it round the US again, I reckon the kids could do with a bit of love'n'peace acid instead of all this crack ;-) Besides reminding me of witnessing experiences, what she describes also reminded me very much of what it's like to be under laughing gas at the dentist. I know you're going to laugh, considering my last post, but I've only been to the dentist twice in the last twenty years I guess you must do a pretty good job with the monkey wrench, then... Actually I have a leatherman multi-tool, it does the job nicely. and have never had gas. Sounds like I'm missing out though. It's an interesting experience. It would be a lot more fun in a non-dentist setting, though. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: Wanna hear a great Tom Wolfe story? :-) I wasn't there for this one personally, but I know a couple of people who were and they vouch for its accuracy. Well, Tom decided he wanted to write a book on all these crazy hippies, so he managed to meet Kesey and get invited to the farm in Springfield, and then on the bus and to some of the other wacky places they went. But the whole time Tom is doing his New York number, which means that every day, in the midst of these stoned hippies, wearing everything from tie-dye to naked, he's walking around in his white suit, the one he's famous for. This goes on for some time, with Tom recording all the stuff he sees around him but not really being part of it. Finally, the guys on the farm had to move this enormous, wood-burning, pot-bellied stove from the barn into one of the houses. It was heavy. So heavy that the guys who lived there on the farm couldn't lift it, so they called to Tom for help. He pitched in, and between them they got the cast- iron stove to its new location. Then Tom looks down at his white New York suit and it's *covered* with black soot. Covered. He's stand- ing there, shocked, and Kesey notices and says, Well...y'know Tom...you can't mess with it without gettin' some of it on ya. Everyone cracks up, including Tom Wolfe. He fit in better after that. Ha Ha, good one,I like that a lot. I shall pass it on to some of my old pot-head pals. We had a similar scene in England in the 80's with some really heavy psychedelic bands, magic mushrooms and free festivals every weekend, much fun. Indeed. T'was a magical time... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: [...] Probably not due to the same mechanism --not even remotely. Witnessing waking, dreaming and sleeping likely don't have any effect on the functioning of the rostral anterior cingulate cortex. Any in CC not minding of pain isn't due not feeling or caring about the pain, but simply due to the strength of the connections that give rise the CC state in the first place. I'm not sure what you're referring to by connections, but I don't know why shutting down the rACC couldn't be a side effect of CC. I wasn't suggesting that disabling the rACC somehow invoked CC, but rather the reverse. Connections as in neural connections. CC doesn't appear to have anything to do with shutting down any specific part of the brain, but rather with strengthening the long-distance communications of the various parts of the brain in such a way as to support what TMers call witnessing. snip Any change in how the brain handles pain in someone in CC probably has nothing to do with changes in how the brain processes pain _per se_, but in how the brain processes ANY strong stimulus: the strong stimulus doesn't overwhelm the brain's ability to maintain the long- distance coherent state that apparently characterizes CC- witnessing. The brain still feels pain the same as always --it just doesn't overshadow the global coherence state. But read what the reporter says about the rACC again: The rACC...plays a critical role in the awareness of the nastiness of pain: the feeling of dislike for it, a loathing so intense that you are immediately compelled to try to make it stop. Not awareness of pain, but awareness of the nastiness of pain. So someone in CC doesn't think that pain is nasty? I'd suggest it wouldn't be a matter of CC shutting down the rACC, but rather of not triggering its activity in the first place. The rACC seems to be a mechanism for making you take action to neutralize whatever is causing the pain *because pain is often a signal that the integrity of the physical organism is being threatened*. And this would be a bad thing because? But if you aren't attached to the physical organism because you identify with the Self rather than the self, you don't need that alarm system to make you perceive the pain as intolerably unpleasant so you spring into action to neutralize it. Whatever is causing the pain is no longer a threat to your survival because you don't experience your physical survival as necessary for your existence. Which is a plain stupid thing for CC to do from an evolutionary perspectie and isn't supported by any research that I'm aware of. CC doesn't prevent one from feeling things or worrying about things. All CC appears to be is the establishment of sufficient connectivity in the brain to maintain the stability of Pure Consciousness regardless of whatever transitory mental states are going on, including, one presumes, pain and pleasure. So the rACC, or at least its function of making pain unpleasant (it may have other functions), would become irrelevant as a kind of side effect of CC, in this formulation. There's no longer a *need* for pain to be an overwhelming sensation. Just a guess... There's no side effect to CC: its just the brain better maintaining the global connectivity of Pure Consciousness along with the normal activation of various states whether major states like waking, dreaming and sleeping, or localized activiations like paying attention to music, thought or pain or pleasure. CC isn't something UNusual --its just plain old normalcy at its most normal. The rACC or whatever doesn't change its activiation much, if any, in CC. The brain becomes a bit more efficient in CC, but CC doesn't lead to some drastic increase or decrease of the activation levels of the various parts of the brain outside of TM practice --they just work *together* more efficiently. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: The thing I like most about the hippy/LSD revolution is that it was all started by the CIA looking for a truth drug, they performed experiments on volunteers, one of whom was Ken Kesey author of one flew over the cuckoos nest. He loved it and after reading stranger in a strange land by Heinlien he started a really wild commune and toured america on a old bus giving out LSD to all and sundry, the rest is history. Just wish I'd been there. Remember that old saying, If you can remember the Sixties you weren't there. I was there -- not on the bus (Further was its name) but at a few of the original Acid Tests -- and unfortunately the old saying is true...I can't tell you much about them. :-) Alot of those CIA experiments were done at the Royal Victoria Hospital in Montreal and it really fucked up alot of people (of course, they were mentally ill to begin with, so who knows how much damage was done...or, indeed, whether they ended up better than when they started?) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: The thing I like most about the hippy/LSD revolution is that it was all started by the CIA looking for a truth drug, they performed experiments on volunteers, one of whom was Ken Kesey author of one flew over the cuckoos nest. He loved it and after reading stranger in a strange land by Heinlien he started a really wild commune and toured america on a old bus giving out LSD to all and sundry, the rest is history. Just wish I'd been there. Remember that old saying, If you can remember the Sixties you weren't there. I was there -- not on the bus (Further was its name) but at a few of the original Acid Tests -- and unfortunately the old saying is true...I can't tell you much about them. :-) There's a very interesting documentary of the friendship that had developed between Timothy Leary and G. Gordon Liddy in prison (Leary for drugs, I believe, or escaping to the Middle East with Eldridge Cleaver or something; Liddy for Watergate) and the Road Tour they both did after release when they went to college campuses: http://imdb.com/title/tt0086188/ What I found interesting is that at one point Leary is asking someone: anyone have any cocaine? Cocaine? At the end of the day, for all his talk about mind expansion, Leary was just your basic dope addict. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: The thing I like most about the hippy/LSD revolution is that it was all started by the CIA looking for a truth drug, they performed experiments on volunteers, one of whom was Ken Kesey author of one flew over the cuckoos nest. He loved it and after reading stranger in a strange land by Heinlien he started a really wild commune and toured america on a old bus giving out LSD to all and sundry, the rest is history. Just wish I'd been there. Remember that old saying, If you can remember the Sixties you weren't there. I was there -- not on the bus (Further was its name) but at a few of the original Acid Tests -- and unfortunately the old saying is true...I can't tell you much about them. :-) You were actually there! Far out man! Birth of the grateful dead and everything. Must've been a hell of a party. It was. I remember far more than I let on. I just didn't want anyone to think I remembered the Sixties and thus wasn't there. :-) Did you ever read The electric kool-aid acid test by Tom Wolfe? it should brings it back to life for you, a great book. He was on the bus and he managed to take notes! Wanna hear a great Tom Wolfe story? :-) I wasn't there for this one personally, but I know a couple of people who were and they vouch for its accuracy. Well, Tom decided he wanted to write a book on all these crazy hippies, so he managed to meet Kesey and get invited to the farm in Springfield, and then on the bus and to some of the other wacky places they went. But the whole time Tom is doing his New York number, which means that every day, in the midst of these stoned hippies, wearing everything from tie-dye to naked, he's walking around in his white suit, the one he's famous for. This goes on for some time, with Tom recording all the stuff he sees around him but not really being part of it. Finally, the guys on the farm had to move this enormous, wood-burning, pot-bellied stove from the barn into one of the houses. It was heavy. So heavy that the guys who lived there on the farm couldn't lift it, so they called to Tom for help. He pitched in, and between them they got the cast- iron stove to its new location. Then Tom looks down at his white New York suit and it's *covered* with black soot. Covered. He's stand- ing there, shocked, and Kesey notices and says, Well...y'know Tom...you can't mess with it without gettin' some of it on ya. Everyone cracks up, including Tom Wolfe. He fit in better after that. We had a similar scene in England in the 80's with some really heavy psychedelic bands, magic mushrooms and free festivals every weekend, much fun. Indeed. T'was a magical time... I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know. But I tend to believe what Robert Crumb says about the Sixties and it is something to the effect: the only good appeal of the Sixties was all the free love they were promising but when I showed up I didn't get any anyway. He hated the Sixties and he hated Rock and Roll. For all the talk of free love and the counterculure and the breaking down of barriers and all that, I found that Hippies were more into their appearances and cliques than any staid conservative-looking guy like Tom Wolfe. The counterculture was supposed to be about what's in your heart and not materialistic things but it was the Hippies who were very, very tribal when it came to what you looked like...and if you didn't look like them, they would shun you. Indeed, your anecdote above, Barry, speaks to that. Just because Wolfe wore a white suit and tie, he wasn't fully accepted; he had to get it dirty before he was. As well, I think the drug culture of the Sixties created alot of misery and, basically, just a bunch of fucked-up dope addicts. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip The rACC...plays a critical role in the awareness of the nastiness of pain: the feeling of dislike for it, a loathing so intense that you are immediately compelled to try to make it stop. Not awareness of pain, but awareness of the nastiness of pain. So someone in CC doesn't think that pain is nasty? Read it again, Lawson. I'd suggest it wouldn't be a matter of CC shutting down the rACC, but rather of not triggering its activity in the first place. The rACC seems to be a mechanism for making you take action to neutralize whatever is causing the pain *because pain is often a signal that the integrity of the physical organism is being threatened*. And this would be a bad thing because? I said it would be a bad thing where? But if you aren't attached to the physical organism because you identify with the Self rather than the self, you don't need that alarm system to make you perceive the pain as intolerably unpleasant so you spring into action to neutralize it. Whatever is causing the pain is no longer a threat to your survival because you don't experience your physical survival as necessary for your existence. Which is a plain stupid thing for CC to do from an evolutionary perspectie and isn't supported by any research that I'm aware of. Has it ever *been* researched? It isn't stupid; it allows you to make a *choice* about whether to pay attention to the pain and what's causing it, or just to ignore it, depending on the situation. In some cases that ability could actually *save* your life (I'm thinking, e.g., about the guy who sawed off his arm when it was caught between two rocks in an isolated place; if he hadn't done that, he'd have starved to death.) CC doesn't prevent one from feeling things or worrying about things. Nor did I say it did. All CC appears to be is the establishment of sufficient connectivity in the brain to maintain the stability of Pure Consciousness regardless of whatever transitory mental states are going on, including, one presumes, pain and pleasure. Exactly. So the rACC, or at least its function of making pain unpleasant (it may have other functions), would become irrelevant as a kind of side effect of CC, in this formulation. There's no longer a *need* for pain to be an overwhelming sensation. Just a guess... There's no side effect to CC Sure there are, at least in the sense I'm using the term. : its just the brain better maintaining the global connectivity of Pure Consciousness along with the normal activation of various states whether major states like waking, dreaming and sleeping, or localized activiations like paying attention to music, thought or pain or pleasure. CC isn't something UNusual -- its just plain old normalcy at its most normal. The rACC or whatever doesn't change its activiation much, if any, in CC. And you know this how? The brain becomes a bit more efficient in CC, but CC doesn't lead to some drastic increase or decrease of the activation levels of the various parts of the brain outside of TM practice --they just work *together* more efficiently. You might want to read the whole article, actually. That would give you a clearer picture of what's involved here, I think. (I am *not* suggesting that this particular scanning technique for chronic pain patients induces anything like CC, by the way.) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, hugheshugo richardhughes103@ wrote: The thing I like most about the hippy/LSD revolution is that it was all started by the CIA looking for a truth drug, they performed experiments on volunteers, one of whom was Ken Kesey author of one flew over the cuckoos nest. He loved it and after reading stranger in a strange land by Heinlien he started a really wild commune and toured america on a old bus giving out LSD to all and sundry, the rest is history. Just wish I'd been there. Remember that old saying, If you can remember the Sixties you weren't there. I was there -- not on the bus (Further was its name) but at a few of the original Acid Tests -- and unfortunately the old saying is true...I can't tell you much about them. :-) You were actually there! Far out man! Birth of the grateful dead and everything. Must've been a hell of a party. It was. I remember far more than I let on. I just didn't want anyone to think I remembered the Sixties and thus wasn't there. :-) Did you ever read The electric kool-aid acid test by Tom Wolfe? it should brings it back to life for you, a great book. He was on the bus and he managed to take notes! Wanna hear a great Tom Wolfe story? :-) I wasn't there for this one personally, but I know a couple of people who were and they vouch for its accuracy. Well, Tom decided he wanted to write a book on all these crazy hippies, so he managed to meet Kesey and get invited to the farm in Springfield, and then on the bus and to some of the other wacky places they went. But the whole time Tom is doing his New York number, which means that every day, in the midst of these stoned hippies, wearing everything from tie-dye to naked, he's walking around in his white suit, the one he's famous for. This goes on for some time, with Tom recording all the stuff he sees around him but not really being part of it. Finally, the guys on the farm had to move this enormous, wood-burning, pot-bellied stove from the barn into one of the houses. It was heavy. So heavy that the guys who lived there on the farm couldn't lift it, so they called to Tom for help. He pitched in, and between them they got the cast- iron stove to its new location. Then Tom looks down at his white New York suit and it's *covered* with black soot. Covered. He's stand- ing there, shocked, and Kesey notices and says, Well...y'know Tom...you can't mess with it without gettin' some of it on ya. Everyone cracks up, including Tom Wolfe. He fit in better after that. We had a similar scene in England in the 80's with some really heavy psychedelic bands, magic mushrooms and free festivals every weekend, much fun. Indeed. T'was a magical time... I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know. But I tend to believe what Robert Crumb says about the Sixties and it is something to the effect: the only good appeal of the Sixties was all the free love they were promising but when I showed up I didn't get any anyway. He hated the Sixties and he hated Rock and Roll. For all the talk of free love and the counterculure and the breaking down of barriers and all that, I found that Hippies were more into their appearances and cliques than any staid conservative-looking guy like Tom Wolfe. The counterculture was supposed to be about what's in your heart and not materialistic things but it was the Hippies who were very, very tribal when it came to what you looked like...and if you didn't look like them, they would shun you. Indeed, your anecdote above, Barry, speaks to that. Just because Wolfe wore a white suit and tie, he wasn't fully accepted; he had to get it dirty before he was. As well, I think the drug culture of the Sixties created alot of misery and, basically, just a bunch of fucked-up dope addicts. For all of its mistakes and failings, the sixties were a critical time for the West to question all of its earlier identification, and create an opening for among other things, Eastern wisdom, aka meditation, which has probably resulted in the earth's population continuing to exist. The strong tamasic/rajasic tendencies of Western thought coupled with the introduction of atomic weapons was not a life supporting combination. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Indeed. T'was a magical time... I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know. But I tend to believe what Robert Crumb says about the Sixties and it is something to the effect: the only good appeal of the Sixties was all the free love they were promising but when I showed up I didn't get any anyway. He hated the Sixties and he hated Rock and Roll. That's just because Robert was so uptight that he missed all the good stuff of the Sixties. I had dinner with him tonight, and he's the first to admit it. Psychedelics just weren't his thang; he couldn't relax enough to enjoy the good aspects of them. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's no side effect to CC: its just the brain better maintaining the global connectivity of Pure Consciousness along with the normal activation of various states whether major states like waking, dreaming and sleeping, or localized activiations like paying attention to music, thought or pain or pleasure. CC isn't something UNusual --its just plain old normalcy at its most normal. The rACC or whatever doesn't change its activiation much, if any, in CC. The brain becomes a bit more efficient in CC, but CC doesn't lead to some drastic increase or decrease of the activation levels of the various parts of the brain outside of TM practice --they just work *together* more efficiently. CC is the realization of one's identity as pure consciousness. It is not a state of mind, nor does it have anything to do with brain function. Brain function has to do with states of mind. CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it. All creation is inside it. It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- You can search right from your browser? It's easy and it's free. See how. http://us.click.yahoo.com/_7bhrC/NGxNAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- Peter wrote: CC is the realization of one's identity as pure consciousness. It is not a state of mind, nor does it have anything to do with brain function. Brain function has to do with states of mind. CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it. All creation is inside it. It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. Thus, cosmic consciousness does not depend upon purification, acculturation or anything we can do to promote it? Is that a correct conclusion? Thanks. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Peter wrote: CC is the realization of one's identity as pure consciousness. It is not a state of mind, nor does it have anything to do with brain function. Brain function has to do with states of mind. CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it. All creation is inside it. It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. Thus, cosmic consciousness does not depend upon purification, acculturation or anything we can do to promote it? Is that a correct conclusion? Thanks. The *realization* of CC does not depend on the things you mention. However, the things you mention are necessary to build the foundation for CC, until CC is realized. Then it no longer matters. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's no side effect to CC: its just the brain better maintaining the global connectivity of Pure Consciousness along with the normal activation of various states whether major states like waking, dreaming and sleeping, or localized activiations like paying attention to music, thought or pain or pleasure. CC isn't something UNusual --its just plain old normalcy at its most normal. The rACC or whatever doesn't change its activiation much, if any, in CC. The brain becomes a bit more efficient in CC, but CC doesn't lead to some drastic increase or decrease of the activation levels of the various parts of the brain outside of TM practice --they just work *together* more efficiently. CC is the realization of one's identity as pure consciousness. It is not a state of mind, nor does it have anything to do with brain function. Brain function has to do with states of mind. CC/realization has nothing to do with any aspect of the body. Nothing supports it. All creation is inside it. It is utterly and completely independent of any boundary. Ok ... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip The rACC...plays a critical role in the awareness of the nastiness of pain: the feeling of dislike for it, a loathing so intense that you are immediately compelled to try to make it stop. Not awareness of pain, but awareness of the nastiness of pain. So someone in CC doesn't think that pain is nasty? Read it again, Lawson. ... Pain triggers responses in the brain. There may be some difference in how people in CC respond to pain, but I doubt if it has anyting to do with responding to pain as less nasty than it was prior to CC. I'd suggest it wouldn't be a matter of CC shutting down the rACC, but rather of not triggering its activity in the first place. The rACC seems to be a mechanism for making you take action to neutralize whatever is causing the pain *because pain is often a signal that the integrity of the physical organism is being threatened*. And this would be a bad thing because? I said it would be a bad thing where? You seemed to be implying tha CC changed this response in some way as though that were a good thing. But if you aren't attached to the physical organism because you identify with the Self rather than the self, you don't need that alarm system to make you perceive the pain as intolerably unpleasant so you spring into action to neutralize it. Whatever is causing the pain is no longer a threat to your survival because you don't experience your physical survival as necessary for your existence. Which is a plain stupid thing for CC to do from an evolutionary perspectie and isn't supported by any research that I'm aware of. Has it ever *been* researched? Response to pain during meditation is being researched. Response to pain outside meditation is also being researched. I don't believe any evidence has been found that TM meditation (at least) changes the way the brain reacts to pain, at least in the sense of deactivating specific centers. It isn't stupid; it allows you to make a *choice* about whether to pay attention to the pain and what's causing it, or just to ignore it, depending on the situation. In some cases that ability could actually *save* your life (I'm thinking, e.g., about the guy who sawed off his arm when it was caught between two rocks in an isolated place; if he hadn't done that, he'd have starved to death.) Yeah, but one doesn't have to deactivate certain centers of the brain in order to obtain that ability... CC doesn't prevent one from feeling things or worrying about things. Nor did I say it did. All CC appears to be is the establishment of sufficient connectivity in the brain to maintain the stability of Pure Consciousness regardless of whatever transitory mental states are going on, including, one presumes, pain and pleasure. Exactly. So the rACC, or at least its function of making pain unpleasant (it may have other functions), would become irrelevant as a kind of side effect of CC, in this formulation. There's no longer a *need* for pain to be an overwhelming sensation. Just a guess... There's no side effect to CC Sure there are, at least in the sense I'm using the term. I don't think so. CC is just the long-distance communication of the parts of the brain acting in a way that supports the experience of PC along with relative states. There are changes in how someone responds to various stimuli but they are not along the lines of shutting down normal brain centers. : its just the brain better maintaining the global connectivity of Pure Consciousness along with the normal activation of various states whether major states like waking, dreaming and sleeping, or localized activiations like paying attention to music, thought or pain or pleasure. CC isn't something UNusual -- its just plain old normalcy at its most normal. The rACC or whatever doesn't change its activiation much, if any, in CC. And you know this how? Because there's no mention of it in any of the EEG and fMRI research findings on TC or CC that I hav heard of. One of the guys that invented PET did so so he could investigate the effects of accupuncture on pain. He's been working with OrmeJohnson on the brain imaging of the pain response during TM. I don't' recall anything remotely like this coming out of their research though I'm not sure its been published yet. The brain becomes a bit more efficient in CC, but CC doesn't lead to some drastic increase or decrease of the activation levels of the various parts of the brain outside of TM practice --they just work *together* more efficiently. You might want to read the whole article, actually. That would
[FairfieldLife] Re: My Pain, My Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Totally fascinating article (long) in the New York Times magazine. A few excerpts: My Pain, My Brain By MELANIE THERNSTROM Published: May 14, 2006 Who hasn't wished she could watch her brain at work and make changes to it, the way a painter steps back from a painting, studies it and decides to make the sky a different hue? If only we could spell-check our brain like a text, or reprogram it like a computer to eliminate glitches like pain, depression and learning disabilities. Would we one day become completely transparent to ourselves, and fully conscious of consciousness consciously create ourselves as we like?... Over six sessions, volunteers are being asked to try to increase and decrease their pain while watching the activation of a part of their brain involved in pain perception and modulation. This real-time imaging lets them assess how well they are succeeding. Dr. Sean Mackey, the study's senior investigator and the director of the Neuroimaging and Pain Lab at Stanford, explained that the results of the study's first phase...showed that while looking at the brain, subjects can learn to control its activation in a way that regulates their pain. While this may be likened to biofeedback, traditional biofeedback provides indirect measures of brain activity through information about heart rate, skin temperature and other autonomic functions, or even EEG waves. Mackey's approach allows subjects to interact with the brain itself. It is the mind-body problem right there on the screen, one of Mackey's collaborators, Christopher deCharms...told me later. We are doing something that people have wanted to do for thousands of years. Descartes said, 'I think, therefore I am.' Now we're watching that process as it unfolds How does it work? I want to ask. Just as people were once puzzled by Freud's talking cure (how does describing problems solve them?), the Stanford study makes us wonder: How can one part of our brain control another by looking at it? Who is the me controlling my brain, then? It seems to deepen the mind-body problem, widening the old Cartesian divide by splitting the self into subject and agent The area of the brain that the scanner focuses on is the rostral anterior cingulate cortex (rACC). The rACC (a quarter-size patch in the middle-front of the brain, the cingular cortex) plays a critical role in the awareness of the nastiness of pain: the feeling of dislike for it, a loathing so intense that you are immediately compelled to try to make it stop ...Patients who have undergone a radical surgical treatment occasionally used for pain (as well as for mental illness) called a cingulotomy, in which the rACC is partly destroyed, report that they are still aware of pain but that they don't mind it anymore. Their emotional response has receded Really worth reading the whole thing at: http://tinyurl.com/noo5e (That last bit reminds me of what MMY says about Jesus not suffering on the cross. Pain isn't suffering if you don't *mind* it--if it doesn't overshadow you?) Probably not due to the same mechanism --not even remotely. Witnessing waking, dreaming and sleeping likely don't have any effect on the functioning of the rostral anterior cingulate cortex. Any in CC not minding of pain isn't due not feeling or caring about the pain, but simply due to the strength of the connections that give rise the CC state in the first place. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
