Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Hi Nathan, On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 20:36 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote: So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze. I've been following your posts in this thread. I'm not finding your contribution to be very helpful to what we're trying to achieve here. What are *you* trying to achieve, other than making yourself look like an idiot? Or, to put it another way ... Stop being a muppet. If Ciaran needed to refer to the documentation (which I very much doubt), he could read the text-only version included on the install media, or he could use a browser on another machine to access it. Please start taking a moment to *think* before putting your foot into your mouth. Best regards, Stu -- Stuart Herbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Developer http://www.gentoo.org/ http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/ GnuGP key id# F9AFC57C available from http://pgp.mit.edu Key fingerprint = 31FB 50D4 1F88 E227 F319 C549 0C2F 80BA F9AF C57C -- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Nathan L. Adams wrote: So you're saying that Gentoo consists of projects that are completely 'silo'd up' and have no bearing whatsoever on each other. Then the DevRel project only has bearing on those who actually join DevRel. Neat, a group formed for the sole purpose of coordinating itself. Security need only concern itself with securing its members (from who knows what!), and infra can just ignore the needs of everyone else (different project!). I wonder how any of the other projects *ever* made it onto the website... Sigh, every project can set up it's own rules for internal project tasks, that means that internal docs could be a set of nice ascii art and then, you have a nice GuideXML page to point to them than happens to be translated on html/pdf/plaintext/whatever upon the necessities. The errata.g.o (not the summaries w/ link that emerge would output) would obviously be documentation, would obviously be governed by the Doc rules, and it would be irrelevant which staff member happened to publish a particular guide. If Gentoo really is as balkanized as you state, then it is a sad state of affairs indeed. Maybe the 'full fledged' versions should be GuideXML-lite or something, I'm not sure, but your argument is just silly. ARGH looks like MANY people do not get what is good about xml and what is not so good. The whole point of using GuideXML is to make EASY convert to something else. NOT to use it. The problem of using xml everywhere is that it is harder to write and has some work required in order to be parsed and translated. So, if I have to set up an infrastructure that would require me to generate pdf, webpages, text, younameitwegetit and to update/write it not so often and not so quickly, I'd use xml. If there is something that I'd have to write often by hand and quickly and has to be used as is mostly. I'd stay with a simpler format (that maybe is still machine parsable). That said the format Ciaranm suggests for news looks ok for me. XML won't add anything but slowing me. For an errata site GuideXML or an _extended_ version of it could be useful. lu -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDa5WH2QTTR4CNEQARAlERAKCeVue4ATD4fXBgLGdRAWt4Gi7vWgCcCs7R w/Pvjk9vv2C00HmrTkhBnHU= =Eiba -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Developer Gentoo/PPC Operational Leader http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 22:50:42 +0100 Jan Kundrát [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 04 of November 2005 02:50 Lance Albertson wrote: After reading through the heated thread, I have yet to see your valid point of pushing xml for such a simple task. All I have seen is two 3rd grade kids arguing over a swing set. Please give some calm reasons for your opinion instead of voicing things in such a heated manner. Making assumptions about someone else's opinions gets you no where. Well, my point is that our GLSAs and the associated code already handles stuff very similar to the `emerge --news` idea, namely: a) displaying info only for users having affected package b) support for arch-specific issues c) version-specific messages d) instructions on how to make a workaround and how to fix the problem permanently All of these steps are more or less trivial, there is little to no gain in reusing glsa related code. Moving the relevant code from glsa.py to some other location would be more work that rewriting these parts. Marius -- Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better. pgpDzaq8lgkwl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Fri, Nov 04, 2005 at 12:42:47AM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Read the list of requirements in the GLEP. The plain text solution meets all of them. XML fails on several. And, incidentally, I came up with the requirements list *before* dismissing XML. Sorry, but this is too funny. You don't like XML. You wrote the requirements. You decided XML doesn't meet those requirements. So even if you come up with the requirements *before* chances are approximately 97% XML will fail. I don't know if XML _is_ the right thing for this job, but i think you are definitely biased towards it. cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
[[ACK! I sent this out from the wrong address before. Hope you don't get it twice!]] On Thursday 03 November 2005 21:44, Nathan L. Adams wrote: No, I happen to understand the that point. Emerge outputting a short summary is great. But the GLEP should cover the hey mr. end user, the central repository for errata/full fledged migration guides is here: [insert url] as well. [snip] I happen to think that the assumption that the errata are going to be small is a bad one. I think if errata is neccessary in the first place then its going to be something larger than a screen's worth of console output and worth the supposed trouble of GuideXML. So why not approach it from the GuideXML end first, and extract the summary from that? Here's an idea for a compromise solution. Sorry it's so messy: The errata entries would consist of two files per language: - An emerge news file, identical to the format ciaranm proposed. This file would give a very general notice of the issue, such as that given as an example in the GLEP, as well as containing the machine-readable commands for portage to control display. This file's name would end in .news.LC.txt - A GuideXML-formatted errata document. This would be the actual migration guide, such as the contents of the http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/yoursql-upgrading.xml referenced by the example. This file's name would end in .guide.LC.xml - The leading part of the filename would be as in ciaranm's GLEP Once it is time for the errata item to be published (after review, etc.), the files would be placed in a standard location, where an automated process would pick them up. The news files would be transferred to the Portage tree for emerge to pick up, and simultaneously published to a central errata website, e.g. http://errata.gentoo.org/. On the errata website, *all* errata notices would be published to its front page, unless specified differently by each individual user (perhaps a feature storing filters in a cookie). Each entry in the list would contain at least the publication date, the title of the news item as a link to a news item page, and the title of the guideXML document as a link to the document. Errata items would be accessible in a uniform namespace with names derived from their source filenames. For example: 2005-11/2005-11-01-mysql-4.0-4.1-upgrade.news.en.txt 2005-11/2005-11-01-mysql-4.0-4.1-upgrade.guide.en.xml might become: http://errata.gentoo.org/2005-11-01-mysql-4.0-4.1-upgrade/en/ http://errata.gentoo.org/2005-11-01-mysql-4.0-4.1-upgrade/en/guide.xml For user convenience, URLs with language codes the text is not yet translated to, as well as URLs without a language code, should be redirected to the English version. Errata items may be published in other areas for wider exposure, but should always contain a link back to the main source. The news item page would contain a copy of the news text typeset in a fixed-width font, and with links made clickable, as well as a prominent link to the GuideXML document. The title of the page should be the title of the news item, and the title of the link to the GuideXML page should be the title of the GuideXML document. Questions? Comments? pgpHAcs3R8c1G.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Friday 04 November 2005 02:24, Nathan L. Adams wrote: I have read it, and I find it lacking; thus the comments. Or are you claiming that the idea of having a central website like errata.g.o with GuideXML-ized migrations guides is in your GLEP? Its not. I'm proposing adding that as the definative source of the errata, and feeding it to other places (emerge --news, mailing lists, forums, GWN) as desired. I agree with Ciaran here. Emerge --news should be authoritive. I'm not opposed to erata.gentoo.org, but it is easy to generate from the tree. If there would be a master format to generate both from, that would also be OK, but news items in the tree is probably the best answer. And it is easy to display when pretending. One could even give a warning (in advance) when a user is trying to update an affected package (perhaps this should be an extra header item). I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states It is not reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their system. In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must be in a very simple format. *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The lightweight requirement appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred). No, gentoo expects people to have access to a webbrowser. But not all the time. It is perfectly reasonable to expect people to make a nice printout of the handbook at the office, and then take it at home to install a nice new gentoo box. The news directory shouldn't the main source of the migration guides; the website should be (one central page that can feed other sources). The website should not as it a pull source of information. It requires users to actively acquire the information. What is worse is that some users might not update for a prolongued time (6 months). At that time they will not find the information in the erata list anymore. But they will get the RELEVANT news delivered by emerge/enews. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgp2kaCNoMG4z.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Friday 04 November 2005 02:36, Nathan L. Adams wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: I don't have a web browser installed on my server. Do you? So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze. I expect the average user to make a nice printout of the handbook. The print version of the handbook was provided mainly on user request you know. It also works a lot easier than either flipping screens to links/lynx all the time or running up and down to another computer (if available). Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpGLH2Tizwau.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Friday 04 November 2005 02:43, Nathan L. Adams wrote: Brian Harring wrote: Not necessarily the website imo, some central store where it's pushed out to all of the locations though (which I suspect you're getting at). I forgot to clarify one point. I'm saying that http://errata.g.o/ should be the *official* source where users go to find the info, not neccessarity the place where the raw data is stored and pushed to other places (although it certainly could be). I'm saying that /usr/portage/news should be the *official* source where users should go to find the info. http://erata.g.o would be a secondary source, that while officially supported, is not the main source. The reason is that errata.g.o would not be able to offer the same user experience as emerge --news would. errata.g.o does NOT know about the local system (nor should it), and thus might be bloated with unneeded information. When I'm working at updating a system, I'm not interested in knowing that winex-cvs has been removed at transgaming's request (old news, as example). If however I was someone using winex-cvs, I'd be very interested. See the point. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgp8MtoD7JKcb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Friday 04 November 2005 02:52, Nathan L. Adams wrote: Let me say it one more time. I'm not saying you have to have a web browser installed on the system that you are updating or installing. I'm saying that the GuideXML docs are the standard, official source of documentation and the same should hold true for the migration guides. I'm also saying that feedback from users said they want ONE official place to find this stuff. Therefor any plan that doesn't take both of those things into account is silly. And having the GuideXML-ized guides on a central website marked as the 'official-one-stop-for-errata' does not in any way shape or form preclude anyone from mirroring that info in a text file, forum post, emerge --news, mailing list, etc. etc. ad nauseum. GuideXML would not be an appropriate format in any case. GuideXML is too bloated with presentation items to be of use for such a purpose. While one could argue for an xml source version, it would certainly not be guidexml. This is also not necessary as it is possible to easilly apply double transformations by first transforming a file into guidexml and then into html. Look at the herds.xml file or projectxml for an example of this. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpPVzeKlt0GC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Friday 04 November 2005 09:32, John Myers wrote: [[ACK! I sent this out from the wrong address before. Hope you don't get it twice!]] On Thursday 03 November 2005 21:44, Nathan L. Adams wrote: No, I happen to understand the that point. Emerge outputting a short summary is great. But the GLEP should cover the hey mr. end user, the central repository for errata/full fledged migration guides is here: [insert url] as well. [snip] I happen to think that the assumption that the errata are going to be small is a bad one. I think if errata is neccessary in the first place then its going to be something larger than a screen's worth of console output and worth the supposed trouble of GuideXML. So why not approach it from the GuideXML end first, and extract the summary from that? Here's an idea for a compromise solution. Sorry it's so messy: The errata entries would consist of two files per language: - An emerge news file, identical to the format ciaranm proposed. This file would give a very general notice of the issue, such as that given as an example in the GLEP, as well as containing the machine-readable commands for portage to control display. This file's name would end in .news.LC.txt - A GuideXML-formatted errata document. This would be the actual migration guide, such as the contents of the http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/yoursql-upgrading.xml referenced by the example. This file's name would end in .guide.LC.xml - The leading part of the filename would be as in ciaranm's GLEP Oh god help. This also points to another reason why this is not such a good idea. Writing guideXML is a lot more work than writing an e-mail format file (ciaran's proposed format for those who didn't recognize it). Also having double files containing the same information is broken by design. This doesn't mean that all information should be in the news file. Let me give an example that would have been relevant some time ago. Title: Incompatible subversion repository change Author: Paul de Vrieze [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain Posted: 2005-11-04 Version: 1 Display-If-Installed: dev-util/subversion-0.34.0 Subversion has a new repository layout. This new layout is incompatible with repositories created with versions before 0.34.0. If you only use this machine as client, there are no consequences. If this machine contains repositories however, these must be dumped before installing =dev-util/subversion-0.34.0. After installation new repositories can be created and the dumps can be reloaded. For more information on dumping and loading see the subversion migration guide: http://subversion.tigris.org/subversion_migration. the above url is not correct, everything else would have been If I have to write such a file in guidexml it would be a lot more complicated. Further this news item would only be relevant to people providing older subversion repositories wanting to update. As erata would contain all these files, it would be a swamp, hard to wade through. I also fail to see where such a file as illustrated above is unclear to read. I prefer it over a bloated webpage with all kinds of slowness and eyecandy. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpjcJU3Pv71j.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 19:29 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote: rant You're just missing the fact that a flat file (or whatever it is you're clinging to; for the purpose of this rant, I shall refer to your simple data format as flat file) has trade-offs, just like XML's trade off is parsing overhead. XML was designed to solve certain problems; portability of data, separation and portability of presentation from the data, etc. Complexity in the parser is the trade-off. Perhaps I'm missing something here but I thought the concept of --news is to get information in front of as many eyes as possible. It seems that information could just as easily be: This upgrade is going to be a PITA and we highly recommend that you read one (or more) of the following resources before proceeding: http://www.gentoo.org/wherever/upgrade-instructions http://forums.gentoo.org/thread=whatever http://lists.gmane.org/link-to-mail-thread. You have been warned. Have a nice day. (tm) This would have the simplicity of a flat file and all the functionality of XML at once so we can eat our cake too. Just a thought. Nathan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDaqt52QTTR4CNEQARAoQ1AJ42ItHkJ37eFUY8rSoGpN/dVoKIFACeJi7b KW6/pzn8VEKi3hO0Gqomsms= =cSQh -END PGP SIGNATURE- Best Regards, -- Tres Melton IRC Gentoo: RiverRat -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Paul de Vrieze wrote: Oh god help. This also points to another reason why this is not such a good idea. Writing guideXML is a lot more work than writing an e-mail format file (ciaran's proposed format for those who didn't recognize it). Also having double files containing the same information is broken by design. OK so there is two options : 1- every news requires a GuideXML/RST/whatever errata at a central web location Pros: - non-portage user can easily browse errata - consistency in documentation Cons: - work overhead for errata-writing dev 2- every news requires just a short text-based item, extra doc is optional Pros: - flexibility: short news don't require writing extra doc - external doc reuse: the documentation referenced in the news item can be some upstream upgrade doc when sufficient Cons: - lack of consistency and difficulty for non-portage users to browse We can have the best of both worlds if we find a way to reduce the work overhead to 0 (using some kind of news2errataXml translator ?). If we can't, I tend to favor the second solution... -- Koon -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
erm, and how exactly do you propose that the user who doesn't-read-the-site-because-it-has-no-useful-information-currently will learn about errata.g.o? On 11/3/05, Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Brian Harring wrote: Not necessarily the website imo, some central store where it's pushed out to all of the locations though (which I suspect you're getting at). I forgot to clarify one point. I'm saying that http://errata.g.o/ should be the *official* source where users go to find the info, not neccessarity the place where the raw data is stored and pushed to other places (although it certainly could be). -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDarzS2QTTR4CNEQARAlB7AJsHfqCVL160KApWZU7iuqNtCb9SWwCcCtRR D2e1H1U208kQQNzLDo9CpGk= =kiyo -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Paul de Vrieze wrote: What is worse is that some users might not update for a prolongued time (6 months). At that time they will not find the information in the erata list anymore. But they will get the RELEVANT news delivered by emerge/enews. Why would a SomeSQL 1.0 to 1.1 guide ever need to dissappear? Surely errata.g.o would have archiving/searching. But I do see your point about emerge filtering out the unwanted stuff. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDa2RQ2QTTR4CNEQARAv0fAKCFOH6RedaYBSG069nX+aAtmQ/YWgCgjVlE RAF3N34PDvrtY88ks3QwRhc= =b+7v -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thierry Carrez wrote: Paul de Vrieze wrote: Oh god help. This also points to another reason why this is not such a good idea. Writing guideXML is a lot more work than writing an e-mail format file (ciaran's proposed format for those who didn't recognize it). Also having double files containing the same information is broken by design. By the way, we're talking about 1 source file being translated into multiple formats (email for the mailing list, news blurb for GWN, etc), and the idea is far from broken. OK so there is two options : 1- every news requires a GuideXML/RST/whatever errata at a central web location [snip] 2- every news requires just a short text-based item, extra doc is optional Pros: [snip] We can have the best of both worlds if we find a way to reduce the work overhead to 0 (using some kind of news2errataXml translator ?). If we can't, I tend to favor the second solution... This is a wonderful comprimise. And one might even sucker me into helping write the tool. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDa2ZE2QTTR4CNEQARAvNVAJ4+q94QFV+fik4FRCywX1N1Yh1s9QCfab7m trmF40e9e33usGS7EbpMjoQ= =tPJE -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:33:37 +0100 Jan Kundrát [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Once this tool is implemented and well tested it can be integrated | into portage. can ! will. It might, but don't count on it. | GLSA already contains stuff for marking items as valid only for given | systems, for injecting them etc. Why don't use existing code? Why | duplication? Because it's quicker to invent a wheel which is actually round. Reinventing rounder wheels seems to be a common hobby. | You think XML magically makes things compatible? Then I suggest you | write a GuieXML to Docbook conversion tool, and see how many | thousand lines of XSLT it takes. All XML does is move the | conversion and parsing problems to a different, more complex level. | | I'm not familiar with DocBook, but I doubt I'll need thousands of | lines of code. Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code... Plain wrong, but you have always made it clear that you are not only biased against XML for anything, but also very much XML challenged. Don't worry, some are even worse than you are, worse enough to claim that XML is hard to parse because XML files from a programming perspective require extra logic to parse. Compare the following key value pair and xml tag pseudo parsing logic for configuration: tag1entry/tag1 Hit a , tag1 as realized tag name, read until , read ahead one to ensure a closing slash, read until to get the tag name, compare tag name with previous tag name to see what tag it's closing. store value attached to tag1. Just a short sample against metadata.xml using ruby/dom instead of python/sax: http://dev.gentoo.org/~neysx/metax.rb Discarding XML for the reasons some are using is like recommending key=value flat .ini files because windows used it in the 80s. They have to be parsed as well, and, as opposed to XML, you have to check for unknown keys, double keys, missing ones, then you need some grouping and you introduce [sections], which you have to check as well, no doubles, no missing ones, no illegal ones, then you need a deeper hierarchy and you use key=/path/to/another/file.ini... Both have reasons to be used, neither is a one-fits-all answer. Anyway, this is getting off-topic, and, FWIW, I believe the suggested format is adequate because it is light, easy to write, read, parse, and even transform into XML should one process ever need it. Besides, it is very much standard, if it's good enough for billions of mail and http messages a day, it's probably good enough for us. -- / Xavier Neys \_ Gentoo Documentation Project / French Internationalisation Lead \ http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en /\ -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Thierry Carrez wrote: Paul de Vrieze wrote: Oh god help. This also points to another reason why this is not such a good idea. Writing guideXML is a lot more work than writing an e-mail format file (ciaran's proposed format for those who didn't recognize it). Also having double files containing the same information is broken by design. OK so there is two options : 1- every news requires a GuideXML/RST/whatever errata at a central web location Pros: - non-portage user can easily browse errata - consistency in documentation Cons: - work overhead for errata-writing dev 2- every news requires just a short text-based item, extra doc is optional Pros: - flexibility: short news don't require writing extra doc - external doc reuse: the documentation referenced in the news item can be some upstream upgrade doc when sufficient Cons: - lack of consistency and difficulty for non-portage users to browse We can have the best of both worlds if we find a way to reduce the work overhead to 0 (using some kind of news2errataXml translator ?). If we can't, I tend to favor the second solution... Both can be done. Posting news items on our front page can be done today, publishing upgrade notes can be done today, grouping all upgrade documents in an upgrade category on the main doc index (docs.gentoo.org) can be done today, having upgrade.gentoo.org point to it can be done one hour later. All of the above does not require a single line of code. I suppose the news snippets could also be integrated in packages.gentoo.org, hopefully without requiring too much work. -- / Xavier Neys \_ Gentoo Documentation Project / French Internationalisation Lead \ http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en /\ -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: News Item Source News items are to be made available via the Portage tree. This removes any need for polling of a remote source. A new directory, ``news/``, will be created in the main tree. Commit access to this directory will be handled in the same way as for the rest of the tree. This directory will contain further subdirectories named ``-mm/``, where ```` is the current year and ``mm`` is the current month number (01 for January through 12 for December) -- this extra level of separation will help keep news items more manageable. Could we possibly use a system thats a mix of how GLSA's and GLEP's are handled currently? The main point here being that we can move the actual cvs location outside of gentoo-x86 and put it in somewhere more appropriate for translators. The example here is, all the GLSA's are currently not in the gentoo-x86 module. The regeneration script on our master mirror syncs with the gentoo module location for GLSA's and copies those files in its current location in the tree. Perhaps we could do the same for the news item where they actually reside in the documentation module and the 'plain text' versions of the files get copied into the tree at regen time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GLEPs are currently created as RST files then you use a converter script to make it in guidexml. Then you actually commit both the rst and xml file to cvs. Could we possibly do the same here to make it simple? Automation is great where it fits best. I'd rather not deal with conversion on the server end, I'd prefer the conversion be handled by the developer/translator as they can double check the conversion script better than the script itself can. Poke at that :-) Cheers- -- Lance Albertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager --- GPG Public Key: http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1 4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742 ramereth/irc.freenode.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 20:24 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote: *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The lightweight requirement appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred). *sigh* Then I guess we're wasting our time getting the Handbook converted to plain text for *every* release. It's on the CD itself, have a look. No need for a web browser of any kind. You really need to check your facts before posting. I've done several Gentoo installs and never knew the plain text versions existed. I think you might want to check the assumption that just because they exists they are widely known (and if they aren't known to exist, they don't do squat for the end user). Surely we're not going to delve into an arguement over whether the web is the best way to distribute information... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDa4U92QTTR4CNEQARAjkzAJ0YS2F/6zWLZeLQ0tbvIYNIqoe1PQCfcV53 bLnhNPoCJDNGrHuIw3pxEEA= =rSj8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 20:36 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote: So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze. less /mnt/cdrom/docs/handbook/txt/install.txt No web browser, so can you please quit beating this dead horse. It isn't even funny anymore. That's a great and wonderful alternative, but the policy is to publish documentation in GuideXML: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp/doc/doc-policy.xml#doc_chap3 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDa4a42QTTR4CNEQARAqGnAJ4gfJLCMmK5/tU5lmnszaR1fW1MSQCfTyYK wh/HaL69456P9eOqc7sabDc= =D8T6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Nathan L. Adams schrieb: | 6. Ciaran is completely biased against XML (or anything that isn't | stored as a simple flat file) ;) On the other hand one could say that there are Gentoo-Devs which are biased against anything that can work without using XML. To quote Wikipedia.org[1]: The Extensible Markup Language (XML) is a W3C-recommended general-purpose markup language for *creating special-purpose markup languages*. (Emphasis added by me.) There are occasions where creating a completely new markup language with XML does make sense. However, this particular enhancement does not need it. IMHO a text based file has a big advantage in this proposed application over fileformats which use XML: Any administrator can read it with his editor of choice, right from the console. Danny - -- Danny van Dyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDa4bFaVNL8NrtU6IRAgQDAJ93+rj1sI6sADnq3QCLpCWE3BYx4gCfdrv3 /6p4ZR5A0kR7akOoCEuT/44= =8moA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 10:58 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote: I've done several Gentoo installs and never knew the plain text versions existed. I think you might want to check the assumption that just because they exists they are widely known (and if they aren't known to exist, they don't do squat for the end user). Surely we're not going to delve into an arguement over whether the web is the best way to distribute information... Ehh... It is listed in the MOTD on the installation media. I'm not making any assumptions on this. It's really not our fault when the user base doesn't read what is sitting in front of them, plainly on the screen. Thank you for proving my point. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 11:05 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 20:36 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote: So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze. less /mnt/cdrom/docs/handbook/txt/install.txt No web browser, so can you please quit beating this dead horse. It isn't even funny anymore. That's a great and wonderful alternative, but the policy is to publish documentation in GuideXML: No it isn't... http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp/doc/doc-policy.xml#doc_chap3 Yeah, see, this is a case where not understanding the structure of Gentoo gives you the wrong impression. The GDP's policy applies to the GDP. That is not a global developer policy of any kind. It is a policy by a project, for that project. If I were, for example, to write up a nice guide for something on the games team and do it all in ASCII art, that policy has no bearing on what I do. If I were to write something for the GDP, then it would. At any rate, that has *zero* bearing on whether or not our update information needs to be written in GuideXML, so there's no point in arguing it with you. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Danny van Dyk wrote: IMHO a text based file has a big advantage in this proposed application over fileformats which use XML: Any administrator can read it with his editor of choice, right from the console. This is an important aspect for sure, but why can't such file be generated from a marked up one? Because the same message will be put in multiple forms (ideally) it is best to have a version with all the required meta-data to generate all the other formats, because if you have to add such meta-data it's usually much worse (= manual or conditional human work). Some people like reading console messages, others plain text mail messages, others want html marked up mail messages, other others like reading an rss-feed, and of course there are people that like to read the full fledged funky marked up with all hyperlinks possible html version on the web. I think the only real importance is that all representations can easily be generated from the original source, be that XML, reStructuredText or any other format. With regard to being it hard to write or not, I think these kind of messages are very well suited for templates, so it is just a matter of filling in the message, which should make the underlying format not so important. Just my €0.02 on the XML vs. plain text discussion. -- Fabian Groffen -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 10:58 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote: I've done several Gentoo installs and never knew the plain text versions existed. I think you might want to check the assumption that just because they exists they are widely known (and if they aren't known to exist, they don't do squat for the end user). Surely we're not going to delve into an arguement over whether the web is the best way to distribute information... Ehh... It is listed in the MOTD on the installation media. I'm not making any assumptions on this. It's really not our fault when the user base doesn't read what is sitting in front of them, plainly on the screen. Thank you for proving my point. And what point would that be exactly? Console messages are ineffective? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDa5Ls2QTTR4CNEQARAm5NAKCiOQEkK07nz4KFfSY+5uzeUNMN2wCfUe1Q LSTG+k4lWKo6v6Wl1AR+424= =Ar9r -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Nathan L. Adams wrote: It is listed in the MOTD on the installation media. I'm not making any assumptions on this. It's really not our fault when the user base doesn't read what is sitting in front of them, plainly on the screen. Thank you for proving my point. And what point would that be exactly? Console messages are ineffective? That you haven't completely read documentation that was right on your screen. I mean *read*, not glanced. I've finally read through ciaranm's GLEP and I get the impression you only skimmed through it. I suggest you stick with exact wording from the GLEP for discussion on this thread rather than assumptions made on arguments. Cheers- -- Lance Albertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager --- GPG Public Key: http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1 4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742 ramereth/irc.freenode.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chris Gianelloni wrote: Yeah, see, this is a case where not understanding the structure of Gentoo gives you the wrong impression. The GDP's policy applies to the GDP. That is not a global developer policy of any kind. It is a policy by a project, for that project. If I were, for example, to write up a nice guide for something on the games team and do it all in ASCII art, that policy has no bearing on what I do. If I were to write something for the GDP, then it would. At any rate, that has *zero* bearing on whether or not our update information needs to be written in GuideXML, so there's no point in arguing it with you. So you're saying that Gentoo consists of projects that are completely 'silo'd up' and have no bearing whatsoever on each other. Then the DevRel project only has bearing on those who actually join DevRel. Neat, a group formed for the sole purpose of coordinating itself. Security need only concern itself with securing its members (from who knows what!), and infra can just ignore the needs of everyone else (different project!). I wonder how any of the other projects *ever* made it onto the website... The errata.g.o (not the summaries w/ link that emerge would output) would obviously be documentation, would obviously be governed by the Doc rules, and it would be irrelevant which staff member happened to publish a particular guide. If Gentoo really is as balkanized as you state, then it is a sad state of affairs indeed. Maybe the 'full fledged' versions should be GuideXML-lite or something, I'm not sure, but your argument is just silly. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDa5WH2QTTR4CNEQARAlERAKCeVue4ATD4fXBgLGdRAWt4Gi7vWgCcCs7R w/Pvjk9vv2C00HmrTkhBnHU= =Eiba -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Grobian wrote: Danny van Dyk wrote: IMHO a text based file has a big advantage in this proposed application over fileformats which use XML: Any administrator can read it with his editor of choice, right from the console. This is an important aspect for sure, but why can't such file be generated from a marked up one? Because the same message will be put in multiple forms (ideally) it is best to have a version with all the required meta-data to generate all the other formats, because if you have to add such meta-data it's usually much worse (= manual or conditional human work). Some people like reading console messages, others plain text mail messages, others want html marked up mail messages, other others like reading an rss-feed, and of course there are people that like to read the full fledged funky marked up with all hyperlinks possible html version on the web. I think the only real importance is that all representations can easily be generated from the original source, be that XML, reStructuredText or any other format. With regard to being it hard to write or not, I think these kind of messages are very well suited for templates, so it is just a matter of filling in the message, which should make the underlying format not so important. Just my €0.02 on the XML vs. plain text discussion. A very good point. You could even offer a web form for those who don't even want to edit the template by hand. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDa5YF2QTTR4CNEQARAly+AKCjnT+yONZPAmTO+cccByWeQcaVsQCfQ4Vb K8Cwc/QQNKxAe/Q0VknIOiU= =2Dow -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 12:08 -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Chris Gianelloni wrote:
Yeah, see, this is a case where not understanding the structure of
Gentoo gives you the wrong impression. The GDP's policy applies to the
GDP. That is not a global developer policy of any kind. It is a policy
by a project, for that project.
If I were, for example, to write up a nice guide for something on the
games team and do it all in ASCII art, that policy has no bearing on
what I do. If I were to write something for the GDP, then it would.
At any rate, that has *zero* bearing on whether or not our update
information needs to be written in GuideXML, so there's no point in
arguing it with you.
So you're saying that Gentoo consists of projects that are completely
'silo'd up' and have no bearing whatsoever on each other. Then the
DevRel project only has bearing on those who actually join DevRel. Neat,
a group formed for the sole purpose of coordinating itself. Security
need only concern itself with securing its members (from who knows
what!), and infra can just ignore the needs of everyone else (different
project!). I wonder how any of the other projects *ever* made it onto
the website...
Yet more proof that you don't understand what you are talking
about...not meant to be insulting just stating that you don't. Just
because some groups (DevRel, Infra, etc.) have farther reaching tendrils
doesn't mean that every group does.
For example, each arch team has a slightly different way to go about
allowing package maintainers to keyword their own packages on a given
arch...some teams insist that the maintainer join the arch team...some
allow for special arrangements (they all follow the same basic
guidelines).
With documentation there are actually 2 different types, those bits that
fall under the GDP and those that fall under the herd that uses them.
Take Chris' games example, the games team is free to release an FAQ in
plain text in Pig Latin if they want to, so long as it is on their own
project page. The GDP policy -only- covers the GDP...not anyone else, so
if Chris wanted to move his plain text Pig Latin doc to the official
Docs repository he would have to make an English version and make it
GuideXML. That's it plain and simple.
The errata.g.o (not the summaries w/ link that emerge would output)
would obviously be documentation, would obviously be governed by the Doc
rules, and it would be irrelevant which staff member happened to publish
a particular guide. If Gentoo really is as balkanized as you state, then
it is a sad state of affairs indeed. Maybe the 'full fledged' versions
should be GuideXML-lite or something, I'm not sure, but your argument is
just silly.
Another thing you seem to be missing is that the GLEP specifically
separates the news from the documentation. The news or errata is just a
plain text *short* summary that something needs to be attended to. It
can, but does not always have to, link to further more detailed
*documentation*. Note then that what would go up on errata.g.o in this
case would be the *summary* (which would not necessarily be governed by
the GDP or it's policies) and *not* the full documentation. Said summary
would contain links to any relevant *documentation* which would then be
governed by the GDP if said documentation was in fact Gentoo created and
in the official Docs repository.
--
Daniel Ostrow
Gentoo Foundation Board of Trustees
Gentoo/{PPC,PPC64,DevRel}
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:37:16 -0600 Lance Albertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Could we possibly use a system thats a mix of how GLSA's and GLEP's | are handled currently? Sure, if that makes sense from an infra perspective. | Perhaps we could do the same for the news item where they actually | reside in the documentation module and the 'plain text' versions of | the files get copied into the tree at regen time. Correct me if I'm | wrong, but I think GLEPs are currently created as RST files then you | use a converter script to make it in guidexml. There is no published official RST to guidexml conversion tool that anyone is prepared to admit to having written at this stage. Also, you'd need to prod the docs guys to remove some of the annoying chapter / section restrictions if you want to use guidexml as a generated format for news items. It's hard enough mapping GLEPs onto that... -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgptD2mgbtnrt.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Xavier Neys schrieb: | Discarding XML for the reasons some are using is like recommending | key=value flat .ini files because windows used it in the 80s. | They have to be parsed as well, and, as opposed to XML, you have to | check for unknown keys, double keys, missing ones, then you need some | grouping and you introduce [sections], which you have to check as well, | no doubles, no missing ones, no illegal ones, then you need a deeper | hierarchy and you use key=/path/to/another/file.ini... He suggested using a RFC822 style Header. Please stick to the facts... Danny - -- Danny van Dyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDa6+TaVNL8NrtU6IRAh7fAJ0WL6M0+KTk9uNQzIJxjS1YDVzN+ACdHMvY OVj8WvjhXuN638d7Zs/Dvo8= =zt9G -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:37:16 -0600 Lance Albertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Could we possibly use a system thats a mix of how GLSA's and GLEP's | are handled currently? Sure, if that makes sense from an infra perspective. Yes, I would prefer a standardish way to distribute these types of things. GLSA's seem to work fine, but they are XML only currently and I don't think this GLEP is heading that way. If we can nail down the standards for local vs. remote (www) it should work fine from the infra side. | Perhaps we could do the same for the news item where they actually | reside in the documentation module and the 'plain text' versions of | the files get copied into the tree at regen time. Correct me if I'm | wrong, but I think GLEPs are currently created as RST files then you | use a converter script to make it in guidexml. There is no published official RST to guidexml conversion tool that anyone is prepared to admit to having written at this stage. Also, you'd need to prod the docs guys to remove some of the annoying chapter / section restrictions if you want to use guidexml as a generated format for news items. It's hard enough mapping GLEPs onto that... Yeah, I wondered about that too. I think the jist of this whole thread is the www presentation level of it would most likely end up as guidexml (unless there's a good reason to use something totally different). The mean reason I say that is because I'm guessing most of the detailed information will reside on the actual www nodes under the GDP which at this time I'd like to keep in xml form. (And i'm only talking about the presentation layer, not what you'll see in the tree). If however, we think its better to have a totally separate vhost like errata, we can be more flexible on the format we use to display. All I'm after from an infra POV is something simple for us to manage and scale. Cheers- -- Lance Albertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager --- GPG Public Key: http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1 4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742 ramereth/irc.freenode.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:12:17 -0600 Lance Albertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | If however, we think its better to have a totally separate vhost like | errata, we can be more flexible on the format we use to display. All | I'm after from an infra POV is something simple for us to manage and | scale. As it stands, it's a trivially simple documentation format that can easily be converted to any other sufficiently general markup format, so long as said markup format doesn't impose any requirements for things like heading structures. Would you like three lines of bash to convert news items into a PDF? :) There's nothing in this GLEP that precludes using the news files in other locations. Being able to do so is even listed in the requirements part. It wouldn't surprise me if someone just happened to come up with, say, a forums auto-poster or a Gentoo news XML auto-conversion tool... If there's anything in the GLEP that makes doing so harder than should be necessary, please let me know because I'd consider that to be a problem needing attention... -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Anti-XML, anti-newbie conspiracy) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpmm07woJa55.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Friday 04 of November 2005 19:39 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:26:28 +0100 Xavier Neys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code... | | Plain wrong, but you have always made it clear that you are not only | biased against XML for anything, but also very much XML challenged. Run a wc -l on guide.xsl sometime. Either wc is lying or that alone is thousands of lines of code. Run a `less` or `gvim` or anything which actually displays the contents of the file. Are you sure that checking for obsoleted translations, highlighting top-page links and other stuff is really required for simple transformations? WKR, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth pgp4lr96TnyR4.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
For simple translations? No. For translations that span the same bredth (old version checking is probably going to be fairly needed if we used xml as a main version, and all other pretifying stuff is necessary. On 11/4/05, Jan Kundrát [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 04 of November 2005 19:39 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:26:28 +0100 Xavier Neys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code... | | Plain wrong, but you have always made it clear that you are not only | biased against XML for anything, but also very much XML challenged. Run a wc -l on guide.xsl sometime. Either wc is lying or that alone is thousands of lines of code. Run a `less` or `gvim` or anything which actually displays the contents of the file. Are you sure that checking for obsoleted translations, highlighting top-page links and other stuff is really required for simple transformations? WKR, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Friday 04 of November 2005 03:30 Luis F. Araujo wrote: The point is not about havig access to a web browser, but to have it installed in the respective box reading news. Nope, I'd substitute in the respective box with on the box that you're doing administrative tasks from. I rarely use physical console of a server. Cheers, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth pgp65oUbhhPeV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Friday 04 of November 2005 02:50 Lance Albertson wrote: After reading through the heated thread, I have yet to see your valid point of pushing xml for such a simple task. All I have seen is two 3rd grade kids arguing over a swing set. Please give some calm reasons for your opinion instead of voicing things in such a heated manner. Making assumptions about someone else's opinions gets you no where. Well, my point is that our GLSAs and the associated code already handles stuff very similar to the `emerge --news` idea, namely: a) displaying info only for users having affected package b) support for arch-specific issues c) version-specific messages d) instructions on how to make a workaround and how to fix the problem permanently So the code is here, as well as existing procedures to make new announcements, to list them on the website, forums etc. The only disadvantage I'm aware of is that Portage would have to include XML parser, but as Brian said, most of Portage installations already do (sorry, I'm not familiar neither with stages nor with Portage, feel free to correct me). WKR, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth pgpPa3rHqvhtW.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Friday 04 of November 2005 19:48 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Also, you'd need to prod the docs guys to remove some of the annoying chapter / section restrictions if you want to use guidexml as a generated format for news items. It's hard enough mapping GLEPs onto that... https://bugs.gentoo.org/ please. It's quite hard to track list of wanted GuideXML improvements on several places. TIA, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth pgpqWBt0LDHIT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Danny van Dyk wrote: Xavier Neys schrieb: | Discarding XML for the reasons some are using is like recommending | key=value flat .ini files because windows used it in the 80s. | They have to be parsed as well, and, as opposed to XML, you have to | check for unknown keys, double keys, missing ones, then you need some | grouping and you introduce [sections], which you have to check as well, | no doubles, no missing ones, no illegal ones, then you need a deeper | hierarchy and you use key=/path/to/another/file.ini... He suggested using a RFC822 style Header. Please stick to the facts... Had you read that bit properly, you would have noticed I was quoting someone else. Had you read the post to the end, you would have realised I understand that and that I even support it. -- / Xavier Neys \_ Gentoo Documentation Project / French Internationalisation Lead \ http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en /\ -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:26:28 +0100 Xavier Neys [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code... | | Plain wrong, but you have always made it clear that you are not only | biased against XML for anything, but also very much XML challenged. Run a wc -l on guide.xsl sometime. Either wc is lying or that alone is thousands of lines of code. You know how to count. Well done. You still haven't got a fscking clue what you're counting, though. BTW, 1525 is not thousands. Remove all the html that surrounds the content, i.e. the top bar with logo and menu, the left col with the menu and old news items, the right col with the ads and you're left with less than a thousand lines. Then remove the blank lines, comments and a bit of what I believe is dead wood but I know has nothing to do with GuideXML, and what's left already does a lot more than GuideXML to HTML transformation. | Don't worry, some are even worse than you are, worse enough to claim | that XML is hard to parse because XML files from a programming | perspective require extra logic to parse. Compare the following key | value pair and xml tag pseudo parsing logic for configuration: | tag1entry/tag1 | Hit a , tag1 as realized tag name, read until , read ahead one to | ensure a closing slash, read until to get the tag name, compare tag | name with previous tag name to see what tag it's closing. store value | attached to tag1. That is not parsing XML. That is parsing some arbitrary markup language you just invented. Please read the XML specification, note how complex some of the little used side features are, and then remember that a compliant XML parser has to implement **all** of them. I did not invent that, I was quoting another dev. FYI, the quote is the bit between the characters. -- / Xavier Neys \_ Gentoo Documentation Project / French Internationalisation Lead \ http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en /\ -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Xavier Neys schrieb: | Danny van Dyk wrote: | | Xavier Neys schrieb: | | Discarding XML for the reasons some are using is like recommending | | key=value flat .ini files because windows used it in the 80s. | | They have to be parsed as well, and, as opposed to XML, you have to | | check for unknown keys, double keys, missing ones, then you need some | | grouping and you introduce [sections], which you have to check as well, | | no doubles, no missing ones, no illegal ones, then you need a deeper | | hierarchy and you use key=/path/to/another/file.ini... | He suggested using a RFC822 style Header. Please stick to the facts... | Had you read that bit properly, you would have noticed I was quoting | someone else. | Had you read the post to the end, you would have realised I understand | that and that I even support it. I did read your post to the end. Still, adding things like the above quoted INI-File talk has nothing to do with this discussions. Therefore my demand to 'stick to the facts'. As to the quoting: Please mark quotes as such. There maybe people who can memorize this whole thread and recognize unmarked quotes... i can't... Danny - -- Danny van Dyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDbAs9aVNL8NrtU6IRAmjKAKCNfYNw7SBbPttEK5ROy7PUgvWkGgCeM+ch y/e6M4sYUp2/o3aZjBRREyI= =pN17 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Wednesday 02 of November 2005 23:34 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code... ...including stuff for detecting outdated translations, inclusion of icons for the homepage etc etc. Cheers, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth pgpU8LskoyMdl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: [a reply] 1. Store the actual guides as GuideXML at a central place such as http://errata.gentoo.org/ 2. Write a simple 'publishing' tool that extracts a summary and a link. This is what gets pumped into portage and shown during an # emerge --news 3. Rejoice. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDahaE2QTTR4CNEQARAmzbAJ9G3UdKnSJ1ze+KMD4jMnr7I91fMwCgm29P 1prgiQtmdk6F6qSgngCyfWY= =P03X -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On 11/3/05, Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: [a reply] 1. Store the actual guides as GuideXML at a central place such as http://errata.gentoo.org/ 2. Write a simple 'publishing' tool that extracts a summary and a link. This is what gets pumped into portage and shown during an # emerge --news 3. Rejoice. Well, i like this way. We may write a good migration article and a summary which is used by emerge --news. This is better than just an annoucement that something has changed. Anyone who is to make backward incompatible changes will have to write detail guidelines in addition to annoucement. That's good. -- Bi Cờ Lao -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 08:49:42 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | 6. Ciaran is completely biased against XML (or anything that isn't | stored as a simple flat file) ;) It's not bias. I give XML exactly what it deserves. SGML is a giant fire breathing stomping monster useful for crushing Tokyo. XML is the spawn of said giant fire breathing stomping monster that's had its claws and teeth removed, its jaws glued shut, its legs chained together and its tail nailed to the ground. And we're not trying to destroy any large cities here... -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpZdjq1o9YtD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 08:49:42 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | 6. Ciaran is completely biased against XML (or anything that isn't | stored as a simple flat file) ;) It's not bias. I give XML exactly what it deserves. SGML is a giant fire breathing stomping monster useful for crushing Tokyo. XML is the spawn of said giant fire breathing stomping monster that's had its claws and teeth removed, its jaws glued shut, its legs chained together and its tail nailed to the ground. And we're not trying to destroy any large cities here... rant You're just missing the fact that a flat file (or whatever it is you're clinging to; for the purpose of this rant, I shall refer to your simple data format as flat file) has trade-offs, just like XML's trade off is parsing overhead. XML was designed to solve certain problems; portability of data, separation and portability of presentation from the data, etc. Complexity in the parser is the trade-off. Flat files can be great in certain situations. Flat files do indeed make the parsing trivial. However SIMPLE CODE ISN'T ALWAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT REQUIREMENT. In the case of this GLEP, the most important requirement is getting the proper migration info to the users in the best possible way. So what are the trade-offs of the 'flat file'? If you store a migration guide as a 'flat file', its not going to be very readable. I would certainly rather read info in GuideXML than some garbage output by einfo or the like (and I'm talking about the same exact data, just a different presentation). You're being daft if you say that your average terminal output is easier to read and understand than the same data in proper GuideXML format. OK, you say, you have a point there. But, you say, my flat file allows me to write a 'presentation' proggy in relatively few lines of trivial code. Yes, but now you have to write a new presentation program for every type of presentation you want to do. Or worse you would imbed the presentation in the data itself and make a new copy of the data every time you want to present it differently. But, you say, don't you have to do that with XML (i.e. a new style sheet definition for each presentation)? Sure, but I don't have to re-write firefox in the process... So the point is that, yes, XML has a down side. But plain text, CSV files, whatever have their downsides too. And the point of this GLEP shouldn't be to push any XML-bashing agenda, it should be to present the user with the migration guide in the best possible way. GuideXML is the standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons! /rant Nathan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDaqt52QTTR4CNEQARAoQ1AJ42ItHkJ37eFUY8rSoGpN/dVoKIFACeJi7b KW6/pzn8VEKi3hO0Gqomsms= =cSQh -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:29:45 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Flat files can be great in certain situations. Flat files do indeed | make the parsing trivial. However SIMPLE CODE ISN'T ALWAYS THE MOST | IMPORTANT REQUIREMENT. In the case of this GLEP, the most important | requirement is getting the proper migration info to the users in the | best possible way. Read the list of requirements in the GLEP. The plain text solution meets all of them. XML fails on several. And, incidentally, I came up with the requirements list *before* dismissing XML. | So what are the trade-offs of the 'flat file'? If you store a | migration guide as a 'flat file', its not going to be very readable. Who said anything about storing a migration guide as a flat file? Read the GLEP. | GuideXML is the standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons! No, it's the standard because Daniel said so. And the reasons behind which web publishing setup we use have little relation to good reasons for a news delivery system. Why do you think we still send email in plain text? *shrug* Anyway, if you want to come up with an alternate GLEP based around XML, bittorrent, Java and CORBA, go right ahead. The GLEP system is quite happy with handling multiple competing proposals for a given topic, and at the end of it we can select the best proposal, reject all the proposals or go and come up with a new proposal with bits from both. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpqfy2av9otm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:32:47 +0100 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What do you mean they aren't tied to ebuilds? I don't really | understand what this feature should do then, it seems. Once again, | what's wrong with reusing emerge --changelog mechanism for displaying | this kind of information? We make changes that have scope other than ebuilds. | I'm not particularly happy with idea of emerge as a newsreader | really, IMHO we should display relevant, vital upgrading information | *when relevant*, not to inform users about upgrades that they are not | interested in in the least. Which is what my proposed GLEP does, at least as far as we can determine automatically. Yes, occasionally this will mean giving, say, mysql 4.1 upgrade instructions to people who plan to use only mysql 4.0, but then, if we didn't give them the news, most of them wouldn't know that they don't want to upgrade. And it doesn't turn emerge into a news reader. All portage does is deliver the news. How said news is read is a different issue. | And please, keep the thing simple so that I can be done in reasonable | amount of time and does not follow the destiny of einfo/ewarn logging | (3 years and counting). Of course. Hence why I'm proposing something easy and workable, and not suggesting some magic new framework that will solve all existing problems (including world peace). Just keep in mind that portage is supposed to be non-interactive and most users like it that way. (Although the countdown when cleaning out old packages kinda breaks that idea, but I digress.) So just make sure that the scheme doesn't involve forcing the user to notice anything during a 'normal' non-interactive emerge in order for it to be effective. Thats why I keep pushing having a nice GuideXML version in a central location like http://errata.g.o/ and just having emerge output a summary and a link (however/at what point/with what mechanism you decide to actually have portage output it). -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDaq8U2QTTR4CNEQARAm6kAJ948WBp0elnZvxoHLMXvNfaBZvxsgCdEdAO gO6VPobgKHfqcKpjAQ1II6U= =iNoA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:45:08 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Just keep in mind that portage is supposed to be non-interactive and | most users like it that way. (Although the countdown when cleaning out | old packages kinda breaks that idea, but I digress.) You really should give the GLEP a read. It's quite nice, you know... -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpj8ofRTUpbd.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 12:26 +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:16:03 +0100 Thierry Carrez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | For them to know about it, they need to be warned when they do their | emerge -p world or emerge -a mysql that the upgrade is not as easy | as it seems. People using a cron job to sync are probably a | significant part of our user base... Have Portage give a red flashy before emerge if there're unread news items? Or have it die unless they have I_LIKE_A_BROKEN_SYSTEM_PLEASE_IGNORE_NEWS=yes in make.conf ;] Although, a better solution for users who cron sync would be to have said cron mail them all the relevant news files... We don't have control over what they do in cron, we do have control over portage itself. The cron thing is a *really* good idea. Its so good that its an example in the Gentoo Cron How-to. A few developers actively debugging the sync process might enjoy watching the output of a sync scroll by, but normal/sane people have better things to do. (Note: I'm not bashing Chris's statement here; I honestly don't know what point he was trying to make). So don't implement the --news thing in such a way that in the future a developer might be tempted to tell a complaining user whats the matter with you? don't you read the output when you sync? no? what a loser; no wonder your system is b0rked. (or something to that effect) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDarFQ2QTTR4CNEQARAgWDAJ0cW1xpOKCy+jjaYCoGBbfOOXSGwwCgojNk flBm0MnXXXRLsBGC3XXcYts= =1Ls9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:29:45 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Flat files can be great in certain situations. Flat files do indeed | make the parsing trivial. However SIMPLE CODE ISN'T ALWAYS THE MOST | IMPORTANT REQUIREMENT. In the case of this GLEP, the most important | requirement is getting the proper migration info to the users in the | best possible way. Read the list of requirements in the GLEP. The plain text solution meets all of them. XML fails on several. If readability isn't a requirement, your list is wrong. And, incidentally, I came up with the requirements list *before* dismissing XML. Given your past public statement about XML; I highly doubt that. Whether you were concious of it or not, I suspect that XML bashing was always in the mix. | So what are the trade-offs of the 'flat file'? If you store a | migration guide as a 'flat file', its not going to be very readable. Who said anything about storing a migration guide as a flat file? Read the GLEP. No, *you* need to read my previous response. I was using 'flat file' to mean whatever it is you're calling your less-than-GuideXML scheme. | GuideXML is the standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons! No, it's the standard because Daniel said so. And the reasons behind which web publishing setup we use have little relation to good reasons for a news delivery system. Why do you think we still send email in plain text? Why do you think news is sent as an RSS feed? Answer: Because it has proven to be the best way! *shrug* Anyway, if you want to come up with an alternate GLEP based around XML, bittorrent, Java and CORBA, go right ahead. I never mentioned bittorrent, Java, or CORBA. If you don't have a valid arguement, please don't try to distract everyone by putting words into the mouths of those you're arguing with. The GLEP system is quite happy with handling multiple competing proposals for a given topic, and at the end of it we can select the best proposal, reject all the proposals or go and come up with a new proposal with bits from both. So if you didn't want people to actually review and comment on *your* GLEP, why did you write: The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course, suggestions on other items are good too... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDarNC2QTTR4CNEQARAkvgAJ91X9MQyPVLE20VPYhAVq5O36jV3gCeI/nY swzdhW0+/C84vVN9UQ8aes4= =DiXn -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:45:08 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Just keep in mind that portage is supposed to be non-interactive and | most users like it that way. (Although the countdown when cleaning out | old packages kinda breaks that idea, but I digress.) You really should give the GLEP a read. It's quite nice, you know... Your explanations hint at interacting with portage during an emerge. Specifically you floated the idea of having emerge print a red flashy message before doing the emerge. *That* is what I was commenting on. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDarPp2QTTR4CNEQARAkkbAKCn8yDt7D17Ls+/huZkg4TkKjmXVwCgntbs BrrWIziJCF2M8RckaINyMNA= =Ytle -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:02:58 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | So if you didn't want people to actually review and comment on *your* | GLEP, why did you write: | | The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing | that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These | are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course, | suggestions on other items are good too... I want people to review and comment on it after they've actually read the thing. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpCFBr3xb18d.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:05:45 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:45:08 -0500 Nathan L. Adams | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | wrote: | | Just keep in mind that portage is supposed to be non-interactive | | and most users like it that way. (Although the countdown when | | cleaning out old packages kinda breaks that idea, but I digress.) | | You really should give the GLEP a read. It's quite nice, you know... | | | Your explanations hint at interacting with portage during an emerge. | Specifically you floated the idea of having emerge print a red flashy | message before doing the emerge. *That* is what I was commenting on. Ever noticed any of the other red flashies that emerge gives? For example, if you try emerge -C glibc? Doesn't break the non-interactive requirement, it's just yet another way of shoving something in the user's face if they somehow ignore all the normal warnings. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpdhBQefUasn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:02:58 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | So if you didn't want people to actually review and comment on *your* | GLEP, why did you write: | | The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing | that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These | are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course, | suggestions on other items are good too... I want people to review and comment on it after they've actually read the thing. I have read it, and I find it lacking; thus the comments. Or are you claiming that the idea of having a central website like errata.g.o with GuideXML-ized migrations guides is in your GLEP? Its not. I'm proposing adding that as the definative source of the errata, and feeding it to other places (emerge --news, mailing lists, forums, GWN) as desired. I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states It is not reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their system. In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must be in a very simple format. *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The lightweight requirement appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred). The news directory shouldn't the main source of the migration guides; the website should be (one central page that can feed other sources). -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDarhL2QTTR4CNEQARAr+KAJ9v5iy+i5tvqNx9woib/cJUZI+eMwCgohIo acuUUmVYcI1TsBDX0dg/K0s= =bWEF -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:05:45 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:45:08 -0500 Nathan L. Adams | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | wrote: | | Just keep in mind that portage is supposed to be non-interactive | | and most users like it that way. (Although the countdown when | | cleaning out old packages kinda breaks that idea, but I digress.) | | You really should give the GLEP a read. It's quite nice, you know... | | | Your explanations hint at interacting with portage during an emerge. | Specifically you floated the idea of having emerge print a red flashy | message before doing the emerge. *That* is what I was commenting on. Ever noticed any of the other red flashies that emerge gives? For example, if you try emerge -C glibc? Doesn't break the non-interactive requirement, it's just yet another way of shoving something in the user's face if they somehow ignore all the normal warnings. Yes, I've noticed them. My point is that you need to be careful that the red-flashy doesn't the primary way of delivering the message. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDarid2QTTR4CNEQARAq+gAKCZ0e1kZHeuYvQcjqxKwTZ+XsbXRACgh2ef gSZ1q0Of1t6SA6u5oMQkp5c= =oKCA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:24:27 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states It is not | reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email | client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their | system. In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must | be in a very simple format. | | *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to | have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users | would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The | lightweight requirement appears to just be your way of subverting | the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred). I don't have a web browser installed on my server. Do you? -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpThKJvameCK.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 08:24:27PM -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote: I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states It is not reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their system. In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must be in a very simple format. *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The lightweight requirement appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred). We actually have links in the base profile iirc, either way, the example of where this breaks down is headless servers... The news directory shouldn't the main source of the migration guides; the website should be (one central page that can feed other sources). Not necessarily the website imo, some central store where it's pushed out to all of the locations though (which I suspect you're getting at). ~harring pgpQZBR7QbbP5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:24:27 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states It is not | reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email | client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their | system. In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must | be in a very simple format. | | *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to | have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users | would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The | lightweight requirement appears to just be your way of subverting | the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred). I don't have a web browser installed on my server. Do you? So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDarsD2QTTR4CNEQARAuZhAJ49FHBjVbDQbC6+nyBIw6wRjLZE+QCeO/yW dPY2A20OJcwJ/NTOwZqg434= =SPIh -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
*ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The lightweight requirement appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred). How about getting some facts straight before running your mouth? Gentoo most certainly does not expect users to have a web browser to install. The last time I actually installed on x86 (which was some time ago admittedly), there was a .txt version of the install guide on the livecd. Even then, the web browser you are speaking of runs directly off the livecd. So, what happens when there is critical news to be read during the install phase inside the chroot, but no web browser is yet installed? Are you suggesting we bloat stage1 and stage2 with some sort of XML parser so that the user can read news without having to kill the emerge and read the news outside the chroot? I think you would have a seriously hard time convincing the release folks this is a good idea. Furthermore, it is not possible to include any sort of XML parser with installers for certain arches which use very minimal netboots for the default installation method. So really, your complaints about the lightweight requirement appears to just be a way of subverting attention away from the real reasons it is a good idea, and towards maintaining a flamewar with ciaran that you will surely lose. -Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Brian Harring wrote: Not necessarily the website imo, some central store where it's pushed out to all of the locations though (which I suspect you're getting at). I forgot to clarify one point. I'm saying that http://errata.g.o/ should be the *official* source where users go to find the info, not neccessarity the place where the raw data is stored and pushed to other places (although it certainly could be). -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDarzS2QTTR4CNEQARAlB7AJsHfqCVL160KApWZU7iuqNtCb9SWwCcCtRR D2e1H1U208kQQNzLDo9CpGk= =kiyo -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze. Funny, I've done three fresh installs on my various mips machines in the past couple of weeks, and I didn't read even a word of documentation to do it. Besides, if somebody is installing gentoo on a server, do you really think that would be their only box? Surely they have a workstation of some sort, since a proper server certainly would not be also used as a desktop. -Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:36:03 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? Actually, yes, I did. I can quite easily do installs without the documentation, as can most other people who really know how Gentoo works. | (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo | server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze. I bet there're lots of people who don't read the documentation using the machine on which they're installing. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpSUud7EleCU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:41:36 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | If I understand his position correctly, Ciaran doesn't want the | GuideXML version at all, which is a supremely stupid idea IMHO. Read GLEP. GLEP good. Especially the bit about interoperability with existing news sources. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgprpwi22W4JW.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Nathan L. Adams wrote: *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The lightweight requirement appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred). Since when did GuideXML become the standard for all our websites? Currently, the only website that uses it is www. Nothing else uses it. If any solution to the errata site idea is going to come out, it doesn't need to be guidexml, it can be anything. After reading through the heated thread, I have yet to see your valid point of pushing xml for such a simple task. All I have seen is two 3rd grade kids arguing over a swing set. Please give some calm reasons for your opinion instead of voicing things in such a heated manner. Making assumptions about someone else's opinions gets you no where. Please keep your discussion to this thread a discussion and not an argument between you and ciaranm. Please take those off this list. Cheers- -- Lance Albertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager --- GPG Public Key: http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1 4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742 ramereth/irc.freenode.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephen P. Becker wrote: *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The lightweight requirement appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred). How about getting some facts straight before running your mouth? Gentoo most certainly does not expect users to have a web browser to install. The last time I actually installed on x86 (which was some time ago admittedly), there was a .txt version of the install guide on the livecd. Even then, the web browser you are speaking of runs directly off the livecd. So, what happens when there is critical news to be read during the install phase inside the chroot, but no web browser is yet installed? Are you suggesting we bloat stage1 and stage2 with some sort of XML parser so that the user can read news without having to kill the emerge and read the news outside the chroot? I think you would have a seriously hard time convincing the release folks this is a good idea. Furthermore, it is not possible to include any sort of XML parser with installers for certain arches which use very minimal netboots for the default installation method. So really, your complaints about the lightweight requirement appears to just be a way of subverting attention away from the real reasons it is a good idea, and towards maintaining a flamewar with ciaran that you will surely lose. Let me say it one more time. I'm not saying you have to have a web browser installed on the system that you are updating or installing. I'm saying that the GuideXML docs are the standard, official source of documentation and the same should hold true for the migration guides. I'm also saying that feedback from users said they want ONE official place to find this stuff. Therefor any plan that doesn't take both of those things into account is silly. And having the GuideXML-ized guides on a central website marked as the 'official-one-stop-for-errata' does not in any way shape or form preclude anyone from mirroring that info in a text file, forum post, emerge --news, mailing list, etc. etc. ad nauseum. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDar7y2QTTR4CNEQARAkK2AJ9W+uofXxiuNc86gzsfHISvD7XkPgCeMeue kDgucVFWYYLAb74WbcLQWpM= =6A4p -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephen P. Becker wrote: So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze. Funny, I've done three fresh installs on my various mips machines in the past couple of weeks, and I didn't read even a word of documentation to do it. Besides, if somebody is installing gentoo on a server, do you really think that would be their only box? Surely they have a workstation of some sort, since a proper server certainly would not be also used as a desktop. And therefore they would have a access to a web browser. Thank you for helping to explain my point. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDar8m2QTTR4CNEQARAvlAAJ9cXIqGHzojBSkz6XEACuXefbBE1ACaAsE2 p2wxad72pF3iHPAf+LU2x7s= =z0nr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:36:03 -0500 Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? Actually, yes, I did. I can quite easily do installs without the documentation, as can most other people who really know how Gentoo works. And as a long time developer, I'm sure you represent the typical user... | (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo | server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze. I bet there're lots of people who don't read the documentation using the machine on which they're installing. See above. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDar+G2QTTR4CNEQARAqTdAJ9LT4bx+nrPJpdwpttZaKFoOCVTSgCfYbvy ozqoUGfbXM57FLxBMYp9UWg= =Alrz -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Nathan L. Adams wrote: [Thu Nov 03 2005, 07:02:58PM CST] -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Read the list of requirements in the GLEP. The plain text solution meets all of them. XML fails on several. If readability isn't a requirement, your list is wrong. I would argue that reading raw xml is a lot less fun than reading minimally marked-up plain text (such as an e-mail). | So what are the trade-offs of the 'flat file'? If you store a | migration guide as a 'flat file', its not going to be very readable. Who said anything about storing a migration guide as a flat file? Read the GLEP. No, *you* need to read my previous response. I was using 'flat file' to mean whatever it is you're calling your less-than-GuideXML scheme. *Sigh* I think you might be misinterpreting the GLEP. The news items are likely to be fairly short, such as the YourSQL example that's in the GLEP. The news item would then point to a migration guide that resides elsewhere, if needed. The point behind having the news pulled by portage is that the headless server, for example, would only report news items that are relevant to that machine. The server's admin could then fire up a web browser on a desktop machine to read any necessary additional info. | GuideXML is the standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons! True, but at the same time there's a reason that GLEPs can be written in restructured text as well as guidexml. I doubt that it's accidental that almost all GLEPs have been submitted in restructured text rather than guidexml. (Incidentally, I like our guidexml. I think that it renders quite well for what we want. I'm not so fond of writing it, however.) That's really beside the point, though. The real point is that plain text news items are going to be the easiest to create and the easiest to read on a console screen. As for having an errata page, it wouldn't be difficult to write a program to automatically convert news items to guidexml. I suspect that ciaranm could even be talked into writing it, if such a page were to become reality. -g2boojum- -- Grant Goodyear Gentoo Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76 pgppllN4FWKVp.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Grant Goodyear wrote: | GuideXML is the standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons! True, but at the same time there's a reason that GLEPs can be written in restructured text as well as guidexml. I doubt that it's accidental that almost all GLEPs have been submitted in restructured text rather than guidexml. (Incidentally, I like our guidexml. I think that it renders quite well for what we want. I'm not so fond of writing it, however.) Here here ... I like how GLEPs are primarily in RST format which is really easy to read in raw form. My vote/opinion is to use a similar format for news items which I'm pretty sure can be easily converted to whatever format we end up using (GuideXML or not) for the site portion of this GLEP. Cheers- -- Lance Albertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager --- GPG Public Key: http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1 4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742 ramereth/irc.freenode.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Nathan L. Adams wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephen P. Becker wrote: So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze. Funny, I've done three fresh installs on my various mips machines in the past couple of weeks, and I didn't read even a word of documentation to do it. Besides, if somebody is installing gentoo on a server, do you really think that would be their only box? Surely they have a workstation of some sort, since a proper server certainly would not be also used as a desktop. And therefore they would have a access to a web browser. Thank you for helping to explain my point. The point is not about havig access to a web browser, but to have it installed in the respective box reading news. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On 11/4/05, Nathan L. Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And as a long time developer, I'm sure you represent the typical user... Well, I'm a normal user here, and I can install gentoo quite easily without reading the documentation. it's dead simple: prepare the disks - get the stage tarballs - chroot - bootstrap/emerge -e system - build the kernel - build the bootloader - a few config tweaks. Onces one gets the idea, i don't see how a gentoo installation is harder than a RH or debian or suse one. -- Joe -- There are 3 kinds of people in the world: Those who can count, and those who can't. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lance Albertson wrote: Nathan L. Adams wrote: *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The lightweight requirement appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred). Since when did GuideXML become the standard for all our websites? Currently, the only website that uses it is www. Nothing else uses it. If any solution to the errata site idea is going to come out, it doesn't need to be guidexml, it can be anything. http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp/doc/doc-policy.xml#doc_chap3 However, when the document is finished, it should be transformed into GuideXML and made available on the Gentoo CVS infrastructure. It must also be registered in the metadoc.xml file if applicable. I never said all [Gentoo] website; just documentation. Errata is documentation. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDavH02QTTR4CNEQARAryaAJkB4DCRYSxwrskI20hzqkC7nmcmggCgpkUu TaEAOVda9tjLj1CQZK1YIkg= =FO5/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Grant Goodyear wrote: Nathan L. Adams wrote: [Thu Nov 03 2005, 07:02:58PM CST] -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Read the list of requirements in the GLEP. The plain text solution meets all of them. XML fails on several. If readability isn't a requirement, your list is wrong. I would argue that reading raw xml is a lot less fun than reading minimally marked-up plain text (such as an e-mail). Oh good grief! Nobody is arguing that the user should have to read raw XML. | So what are the trade-offs of the 'flat file'? If you store a | migration guide as a 'flat file', its not going to be very readable. Who said anything about storing a migration guide as a flat file? Read the GLEP. No, *you* need to read my previous response. I was using 'flat file' to mean whatever it is you're calling your less-than-GuideXML scheme. *Sigh* I think you might be misinterpreting the GLEP. The news items are likely to be fairly short, such as the YourSQL example that's in the GLEP. The news item would then point to a migration guide that resides elsewhere, if needed. No, I happen to understand the that point. Emerge outputting a short summary is great. But the GLEP should cover the hey mr. end user, the central repository for errata/full fledged migration guides is here: [insert url] as well. The point behind having the news pulled by portage is that the headless server, for example, would only report news items that are relevant to that machine. The server's admin could then fire up a web browser on a desktop machine to read any necessary additional info. Great; I'm not against that. Now where does that admin point her web browser? Mailing list archive? GWN archive? The Forums? The stated feedback is that users what a central place for the errata (whether the errata be large or small). | GuideXML is the standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons! True, but at the same time there's a reason that GLEPs can be written in restructured text as well as guidexml. I doubt that it's accidental that almost all GLEPs have been submitted in restructured text rather than guidexml. (Incidentally, I like our guidexml. I think that it renders quite well for what we want. I'm not so fond of writing it, however.) That's really beside the point, though. The real point is that plain text news items are going to be the easiest to create and the easiest to read on a console screen. As for having an errata page, it wouldn't be difficult to write a program to automatically convert news items to guidexml. I suspect that ciaranm could even be talked into writing it, if such a page were to become reality. I happen to think that the assumption that the errata are going to be small is a bad one. I think if errata is neccessary in the first place then its going to be something larger than a screen's worth of console output and worth the supposed trouble of GuideXML. So why not approach it from the GuideXML end first, and extract the summary from that? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDavVI2QTTR4CNEQARAnMnAKCAir22mvnCgoKXc8xPDIYaQMmReACdELKr aa1l8avqCC7nIvV/VypyJj8= =LxgP -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Wednesday 02 November 2005 02:29, Brian Harring wrote: On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 10:16:35PM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | How will it handle GLSAs then? [1] gentoolkit != portage. Correct. Course, also incorrect. A plan for handling GLSA's from portage (emerge --security) was announced some time ago. Is this still planned (i.o.w. portage handling xml)? -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 19:29 -0600, Brian Harring wrote: We already have a module for parsing metadata.xml in use in the experimental 2.1 branch (which can be backported to 2.0 if anyone wants it and does the work). Python comes bundled with xml as long as you don't have the build flag enabled. Translation: it won't work on a stage1 tarball, but will work any time after bootstrap. ;] -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tuesday 01 of November 2005 23:16 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | How will it handle GLSAs then? [1] gentoolkit != portage. To quote GLEP 14 [1]: Once this tool is implemented and well tested it can be integrated into portage. | It's not a question of what's wrong with XML?. It's a question of | what advantage would we gain by strapping a giant flapping wet | kipper to a bicycle?. | | Or (a little bit rephrased) why should we stick with consistent file | formats. Uh, you'd have to invent a load of new XML DTD stuff for this anyway. Nope. We can build on *existing* GLSA DTD and on *existing* code. The downside is that Portage integration could be slower (same case as with `glsa-check`, AFAIK). So you're not using a consistent file format at all, you're just using a consistent unnecessary layer in the middle, which as a side effect makes your files incompatible with every standard Unix tool ever written. See below. Using XML does not magically make things compatible. XML is just a layer in the middle. Any tool processing XML files still has to worry about however the DTD in question works. Just to clarify - I don't say that XML is The Best Way To Go (tm), I'm just pointing out another possibility of implementation which is *very* similar to the way GLSAs are processed. GLSA already contains stuff for marking items as valid only for given systems, for injecting them etc. Why don't use existing code? Why duplication? Have a look at the XML source of any GLSA. You think XML magically makes things compatible? Then I suggest you write a GuieXML to Docbook conversion tool, and see how many thousand lines of XSLT it takes. All XML does is move the conversion and parsing problems to a different, more complex level. I'm not familiar with DocBook, but I doubt I'll need thousands of lines of code. [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0014.html WKR, -jkt -- cd /local/pub more beer /dev/mouth pgpjwA8sWa0OI.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 14:39, Jakub Moc wrote: 1.11.2005, 13:26:57, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:16:03 +0100 Thierry Carrez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | For them to know about it, they need to be warned when they do their | emerge -p world or emerge -a mysql that the upgrade is not as easy | as it seems. People using a cron job to sync are probably a | significant part of our user base... Have Portage give a red flashy before emerge if there're unread news items? Although, a better solution for users who cron sync would be to have said cron mail them all the relevant news files... Uhm... emerge sync is a *bad* time to display upgrade messages, it's simply irrelevant at that time, I'm not upgrading anything at the moment and might not be upgrading for next week or so. The messages should be displayed when I'm about to upgrade an ebuild which has an upgrade note associated with the new version. Sending mail via cron might be a nice optional feature for those who want to use it. I think cron as suggested hit the spot here. I do the same with glsa-check -t all to notify me about security issues present on my system. -- Eldad Zack [EMAIL PROTECTED] Key/Fingerprint at pgp.mit.edu, ID 0x96EA0A93 pgp2wxzQheG8t.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 19:33:37 +0100 Jan Kundrát [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Once this tool is implemented and well tested it can be integrated | into portage. can ! will. It might, but don't count on it. | GLSA already contains stuff for marking items as valid only for given | systems, for injecting them etc. Why don't use existing code? Why | duplication? Because it's quicker to invent a wheel which is actually round. | You think XML magically makes things compatible? Then I suggest you | write a GuieXML to Docbook conversion tool, and see how many | thousand lines of XSLT it takes. All XML does is move the | conversion and parsing problems to a different, more complex level. | | I'm not familiar with DocBook, but I doubt I'll need thousands of | lines of code. Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code... -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpONiFOejduI.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 01:51:25AM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: There is currently no explanation as to why this GLEP should be chosen over ChrisWhite's 42. I will add such a section if anyone requests it. Any reason why you chose bashing Chris' GLEP in another mail and start your own instead of working together and bringing your input for 42? Lightweight It is not reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, web browser, email client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their system. In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must be in a very simple format. I think i have an idea where this is going... Don't you already have some GLEP saying XML sucks? I miss references to the old log ewarn issue, which really should be solved as well while we're at it. There are some good ideas in your GLEP, so are some in Chris'. No good is coming from having two similar GLEPs around at the same time. So please don't waste our time [1] by having two more or less redundant GLEPs discussed. cheers, Wernfried [1] http://dev.gentoo.org/~chriswhite/flame.html Code listing 1.6 -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 02:00, Thierry Carrez wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Notification that new relevant news items will be displayed via the ``emerge`` tool in a similar way to the existing configuration files need updating messages: * Important: 3 config files in /etc need updating. * Type emerge --help config to learn how to update config files. * Important: there are 5 unread news items. * Type emerge --help news to learn how to read news files. Aren't those messages displayed after the damage is done ? Typical use : - emerge --sync run as a daily cron job - emerge -a mysql - great, a new version is there. Typing Yes - system gets borken - emerge spits out message saying 14 files need updating and there is 1 unread news item I'm probably missing something here. Please elaborate on how this GLEP meets the Preemptive design goal... The configuration files need updating messages also appear at the end of emerge sync Also, perhaps the news messages could be put at both ends of the emerge output? pgpIbDvAVqFTj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
1.11.2005, 11:00:22, Thierry Carrez wrote: Aren't those messages displayed after the damage is done ? Typical use : - emerge --sync run as a daily cron job - emerge -a mysql - great, a new version is there. Typing Yes - system gets borken - emerge spits out message saying 14 files need updating and there is 1 unread news item I'm probably missing something here. Please elaborate on how this GLEP meets the Preemptive design goal... I'm probably missing something obvious here, because I can't see why *existing* emerge --changelog code cannot be recycled for this feature to display upgrade messages when running emerge -uDav world... -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) pgpGyWAZW9tWL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:25:34 +0100 Wernfried Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 01:51:25AM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | There is currently no explanation as to why this GLEP should be | chosen over ChrisWhite's 42. I will add such a section if anyone | requests it. | Any reason why you chose bashing Chris' GLEP in another mail and start | your own instead of working together and bringing your input for 42? Yup. I already had most of my GLEP written, and I don't see anything in ChrisWhite's list of vagueness worth using. Besides, there's nothing wrong with multiple competing GLEPs on an issue. | I miss references to the old log ewarn issue, which really should be | solved as well while we're at it. Separate concern. | There are some good ideas in your GLEP, so are some in Chris'. No good | is coming from having two similar GLEPs around at the same | time. So please don't waste our time [1] by having two more or less | redundant GLEPs discussed. It's my view that ChrisWhite's GLEP is a complete waste of space, given that it doesn't contain an actual proposal. I see no point in using it. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpFw7VJjtZdT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
maillog: 01/11/2005-11:45:08(+0100): Jakub Moc types 1.11.2005, 11:00:22, Thierry Carrez wrote: Aren't those messages displayed after the damage is done ? Typical use : - emerge --sync run as a daily cron job - emerge -a mysql - great, a new version is there. Typing Yes - system gets borken - emerge spits out message saying 14 files need updating and there is 1 unread news item I'm probably missing something here. Please elaborate on how this GLEP meets the Preemptive design goal... I'm probably missing something obvious here, because I can't see why *existing* emerge --changelog code cannot be recycled for this feature to display upgrade messages when running emerge -uDav world... That reminds me of the idea to stick tags in the ChangeLog: http://groups.google.com/group/linux.gentoo.dev/msg/8f2dc84619be5c5b?fwc=1 But still, I'm guessing the idea of --news is to tell people that they need to do something A.S.A.P. This means as soon as the news are obtained, and the users are nagged about the news on *every invocation of emerge*, similar to the /etc messages, and not only when they decide to install some package, which is when --changelog kicks in. And then, I am not sure why glsa-check cannot do the same job... -- () Georgi Georgiev () Computers are unreliable, but humans are () ()[EMAIL PROTECTED]() even more unreliable. Any system which () () http://www.gg3.net/ () depends on human reliability is() () --- () unreliable. -- Gilb() pgp5hGSNJIwjC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:16:03 +0100 Thierry Carrez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | For them to know about it, they need to be warned when they do their | emerge -p world or emerge -a mysql that the upgrade is not as easy | as it seems. People using a cron job to sync are probably a | significant part of our user base... Have Portage give a red flashy before emerge if there're unread news items? Although, a better solution for users who cron sync would be to have said cron mail them all the relevant news files... -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpv4SlpznIHh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:39:24 +0100 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Uhm... emerge sync is a *bad* time to display upgrade messages, it's | simply irrelevant at that time, I'm not upgrading anything at the | moment and might not be upgrading for next week or so. It doesn't display the messages. It displays a note saying you have unread news items. | The messages should be displayed when I'm about to upgrade an ebuild | which has an upgrade note associated with the new version. Sending | mail via cron might be a nice optional feature for those who want to | use it. Not really a good idea, a) because news items aren't tied directly to ebuilds, and b) because people like advance warning of when you upgrade Apache, all hell will break loose! rather than having it sprung on them suddenly when they're trying to do a quick update. Getting the news item in advance allows for planning. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpW1XkYvcmx6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
1.11.2005, 13:26:57, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:16:03 +0100 Thierry Carrez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | For them to know about it, they need to be warned when they do their | emerge -p world or emerge -a mysql that the upgrade is not as easy | as it seems. People using a cron job to sync are probably a | significant part of our user base... Have Portage give a red flashy before emerge if there're unread news items? Although, a better solution for users who cron sync would be to have said cron mail them all the relevant news files... Uhm... emerge sync is a *bad* time to display upgrade messages, it's simply irrelevant at that time, I'm not upgrading anything at the moment and might not be upgrading for next week or so. The messages should be displayed when I'm about to upgrade an ebuild which has an upgrade note associated with the new version. Sending mail via cron might be a nice optional feature for those who want to use it. -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) pgpt93NCyWMev.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:39:24 +0100 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Uhm... emerge sync is a *bad* time to display upgrade messages, it's | simply irrelevant at that time, I'm not upgrading anything at the | moment and might not be upgrading for next week or so. It doesn't display the messages. It displays a note saying you have unread news items. | The messages should be displayed when I'm about to upgrade an ebuild | which has an upgrade note associated with the new version. Sending | mail via cron might be a nice optional feature for those who want to | use it. Not really a good idea, a) because news items aren't tied directly to ebuilds, and b) because people like advance warning of when you upgrade Apache, all hell will break loose! rather than having it sprung on them suddenly when they're trying to do a quick update. Getting the news item in advance allows for planning. Personally, I'm for both. E-mailing cron output is a relatively simple operation. Adding a red flashy deal to emerge saying hey, package X has an unread news item, also simple as long as the read/unread format is non-complex. Having emerge --news, I dislike emmensely. We have emerge --changelog, and contrary to what someone posted above, it shows up whenever you specify -l. However changelog does have it's fair share of problems, mostly people who don't use the correct changelog format and break the tagging, causing -l to display nothing. If you want to make a seperate program to read the news, go for it. I don't see why we have to stick silly things in a core utility. emerge is a package manager, it does not do your laundry too. -Alec Warner (Antarus) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:34:25 -0500 Alec Warner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Personally, I'm for both. E-mailing cron output is a relatively | simple operation. Adding a red flashy deal to emerge saying hey, | package X has an unread news item, also simple as long as the | read/unread format is non-complex. Checking for unread news items is just a case of checking for the existence of files in a particular directory. | If you want to make a seperate program to read the news, go for it. | I don't see why we have to stick silly things in a core utility. | emerge is a package manager, it does not do your laundry too. Well, I see no reason for Portage itself doing anything beyond basic news message filtering and installing and alerting that there are unread news messages. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpsgoMzSNOgn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 01:51:25 + Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course, suggestions on other items are good too... Before this, make pre-install and post-install emerge messages more usable, instead of having them lost among thousands of gibberish text in batch emerges. -- Andrej Ticho Kacian ticho at gentoo dot org Gentoo Linux Developer - net-mail, antivirus, sound, x86 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
1.11.2005, 13:48:06, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | The messages should be displayed when I'm about to upgrade an ebuild | which has an upgrade note associated with the new version. Sending | mail via cron might be a nice optional feature for those who want to | use it. Not really a good idea, a) because news items aren't tied directly to ebuilds, and b) because people like advance warning of when you upgrade Apache, all hell will break loose! rather than having it sprung on them suddenly when they're trying to do a quick update. Getting the news item in advance allows for planning. What do you mean they aren't tied to ebuilds? I don't really understand what this feature should do then, it seems. Once again, what's wrong with reusing emerge --changelog mechanism for displaying this kind of information? I'm not particularly happy with idea of emerge as a newsreader really, IMHO we should display relevant, vital upgrading information *when relevant*, not to inform users about upgrades that they are not interested in in the least. Example: Don't bother me with mysql-4.1 upgrade instructions, I don't plan to upgrade to that version and did put it into package.mask. Another example: Don't bother me with upgrade instructions for ~arch ebuilds, I'm running stable. I want to read them when I decide to upgrade, put them into package.keywords and run emerge -uav someebuild/world or when it goes stable. And please, keep the thing simple so that I can be done in reasonable amount of time and does not follow the destiny of einfo/ewarn logging (3 years and counting). -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) pgpLvp5ixQ5zP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Re[2]: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 13:39, Jakub Moc wrote: Uhm... emerge sync is a *bad* time to display upgrade messages, it's simply irrelevant at that time, I'm not upgrading anything at the moment and might not be upgrading for next week or so. If you are not upgrading anything the news is not relevant for you anyway. The news is to accompany changes to the tree. The messages should be displayed when I'm about to upgrade an ebuild which has an upgrade note associated with the new version. Sending mail via cron might be a nice optional feature for those who want to use it. I agree that it might be usefull to allways declare the related package(s). Even when the message is not restricted to them. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgp5ri1pptgYX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 02:51, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course, suggestions on other items are good too... There is currently no explanation as to why this GLEP should be chosen over ChrisWhite's 42. I will add such a section if anyone requests it. Grant, please pick me a number. I have one suggestion on an added header. I think that an Overrides: header should be added. This is for those messages that make a previous message obsolete. Say for example that an upgrade guide to modular X was posted, but that a critical error was made in it. This was fixed, and to make sure that people read the new message, it is not a higher version. It is however not a good idea to have people then read the old message when the new message is there. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgptOkmTozqPt.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 02:54:51PM +0100, Andrej Kacian wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 01:51:25 + Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course, suggestions on other items are good too... Before this, make pre-install and post-install emerge messages more usable, instead of having them lost among thousands of gibberish text in batch emerges. I always ask myself what's wrong with doing a simple if statement before displaying infos, warnings or errors which don't affect the current installaion. No one complained when i started doing that ages ago in bash-completion. I don't mean huge and resource hungry tests. But why tell the user that he should remove a file in /etc with einfo when it doesn't even exist? (That's just an example) Some ebuilds do this now, but most still broadcast (sometimes huge) text floods. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 12:26 +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:16:03 +0100 Thierry Carrez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | For them to know about it, they need to be warned when they do their | emerge -p world or emerge -a mysql that the upgrade is not as easy | as it seems. People using a cron job to sync are probably a | significant part of our user base... Have Portage give a red flashy before emerge if there're unread news items? Or have it die unless they have I_LIKE_A_BROKEN_SYSTEM_PLEASE_IGNORE_NEWS=yes in make.conf ;] Although, a better solution for users who cron sync would be to have said cron mail them all the relevant news files... We don't have control over what they do in cron, we do have control over portage itself. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:22:29 +0100 Jan Kundrát [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What's wrong with XML format similar to the one that is used for our | GLSAs? 1. Portage does not handle XML. Portage will not handle XML in the near future. 2. Many users do not have an XML parser installed. 3. The standard Unix tools cannot be used on XML files. 4. Bloat. 5. XML is merely adding another problem to the one we have already. There is no XML in this GLEP for the same reasons that there is no Java, CORBA, EJBs, web services, on demand computing initiatives or invisible pink unicorns. I have an eselect module which can read these news files. The whole thing is about the same size as the DTD would need to be for an XML-based solution. I have a parser written for the format in question. The whole thing is smaller than the initialisation code for an off the shelf XML parser. It's not a question of what's wrong with XML?. It's a question of what advantage would we gain by strapping a giant flapping wet kipper to a bicycle?. -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpUIAhOatTRa.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:16:27 +0100 Paul de Vrieze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I have one suggestion on an added header. I think that an Overrides: | header should be added. This is for those messages that make a | previous message obsolete. Say for example that an upgrade guide to | modular X was posted, but that a critical error was made in it. This | was fixed, and to make sure that people read the new message, it is | not a higher version. | | It is however not a good idea to have people then read the old | message when the new message is there. Hrm. The advantage of this over simply removing the old news item is that it'll work if the user keeps unread messages around between multiple syncs. The disadvantage is that it makes the implementation a bit trickier. Opinions on the tradeoff? -- Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron) Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm pgpnVKdFoIm7A.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:18:55 + Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Before this, make pre-install and post-install emerge messages more | usable, instead of having them lost among thousands of gibberish text | in batch emerges. Separate issue. That one's the whole elog thing. Yes, it is a separate issue, but it's an issue that's been around for far too long, and seems to be ignored, despite the apparent importance of emerge messages for users. -- Andrej Ticho Kacian ticho at gentoo dot org Gentoo Linux Developer - net-mail, antivirus, sound, x86 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Andrej Kacian wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:18:55 + Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Before this, make pre-install and post-install emerge messages more | usable, instead of having them lost among thousands of gibberish text | in batch emerges. Separate issue. That one's the whole elog thing. Yes, it is a separate issue, but it's an issue that's been around for far too long, and seems to be ignored, despite the apparent importance of emerge messages for users. http://search.gmane.org/search.php?group=gmane.linux.gentoo.portage.develquery=elog The first 7 or 8 results should about cut it. As for it taking forever, code doesn't write itself, and 1000's of whining users/devs don't get code written either. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting
Andrej Kacian wrote: [Tue Nov 01 2005, 01:20:54PM CST] Separate issue. That one's the whole elog thing. Yes, it is a separate issue, but it's an issue that's been around for far too long, and seems to be ignored, despite the apparent importance of emerge messages for users. That seems a bit unfair to me. There's a complete logging facility in portage CVS for a version that's probably not going to be released, but I believe that the logging stuff is being back-ported to the current version of portage. (Moreover, I would argue that this issue was never ignored, but it often wasn't at the top of the list for what our limited portage devs should be working on: see http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11359#c83 .) -g2boojum- -- Grant Goodyear Gentoo Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76 pgpu0sLTvbkF5.pgp Description: PGP signature
