subject:"Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers"

In
CAE1XxDF6a57+wPEJsLQesOTun3OFeq-ObR=zudw++gw9ceg...@mail.gmail.com,
on 12/04/2013
   at 10:09 AM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com said:

We're not dealing with what Google wishes to honor, 

Of course we are.

We're dealing with the problem of resolving semantic ambiguity, 

No. We're dealing with a web page that has labels that do not
correspond with what the search engine actually does. There is no
ambiguity in exact.
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
b870629719727b4ba82a6c06a31c29124c5781e...@hqmailsvr01.voltage.com,
on 12/04/2013
   at 07:46 AM, Phil Smith p...@voltage.com said:

Well, common sense would suggest
www.google.comhttp://www.google.com. 

Common sense is frequently wrong.

Try that.

BTDT,GTS
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
caajsdjg7hhfkk5jwq7u9xytddqzfrk9jak2mculh5oogztq...@mail.gmail.com,
on 12/04/2013
   at 11:09 AM, John McKown john.archie.mck...@gmail.com said:

NVT? 

See TELNET PROTOCOL SPECIFICATION, RFC 854.
 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In 1mhu99pv4m3ki96ug6d0g46nb44j1bc...@4ax.com, on 12/04/2013
   at 11:16 AM, Clark Morris cfmpub...@ns.sympatico.ca said:

What was the VMS facility like?

Part of the naming syntax was a version number, and there was a
command to control how many versions of a specific file to retain. If
you omitted the version number then you got the most recent version.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
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We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread John McKown

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:04 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) 
shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net wrote:

 In
 caajsdjg7hhfkk5jwq7u9xytddqzfrk9jak2mculh5oogztq...@mail.gmail.com,
 on 12/04/2013
at 11:09 AM, John McKown john.archie.mck...@gmail.com said:

 NVT?

 See TELNET PROTOCOL SPECIFICATION, RFC 854.


Thanks. I am not any kind of expert, but the otelnetd UNIX daemon that I
mentioned in a previous post in this thread _seems to me_ to implement this
fairly well. It works fine with both the Linux and Windows telnet
command. In our shop, this gets the user a z/OS UNIX shell environment
which is similar to a Linux shell prompt or a Windows cmd.exe prompt. In
my case, on the Linux side, before I do the telnet command, I do an export
TERM=xterm. z/OS UNIX does not understand the normal TERM value of
xterm-256color set by the Konsole command shell which I use on Linux.



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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

I always thought VMS was *nix like??? If not what opsys is it similar too or is 
it's own thang

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


 On Dec 4, 2013, at 9:57 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) 
 shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net wrote:
 
 In 1mhu99pv4m3ki96ug6d0g46nb44j1bc...@4ax.com, on 12/04/2013
   at 11:16 AM, Clark Morris cfmpub...@ns.sympatico.ca said:
 
 What was the VMS facility like?
 
 Part of the naming syntax was a version number, and there was a
 command to control how many versions of a specific file to retain. If
 you omitted the version number then you got the most recent version.
 
 -- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
 We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
 (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)
 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 13:38:46 -0500, Scott Ford wrote:

I always thought VMS was *nix like??? If not what opsys is it similar too or 
is it's own thang
 
What's *nix like?  On a cursory brush, I believe VMS has a hierarchic
filesystem.  That's *nix like.  It doesn't have an ALLOCATE command.
That's *nix like.  Its files can have attributes.  That's MVS-like.

I knew two programmers: one transplanted from a UNIX environment
to VMS who spent much effort customing his VMS profile to make VMS
behave like UNIX; the other transplanted from a UNIX environment
who tried to make VMS behave like UNIX.  Myself?  I spent (wasted)
enormous effort trying to make the uglier parts of XEDIT behave like
their nicer ISPF analogues.

VMS delimits its version numbers with ';'.  Imagine how that must
infuriate anyone accustomed to using ';' as a command separator.

And an alien once asked me, VM is a version of MVS, isn't it?

-- gil

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread Wayne Bickerdike

Literal translation would be that goes, ca va is a shortened comment ca
va, ie how goes it(that)?. OK would be ca va bien. Without bien it's
meaningless in the context. Bien would be the OK piece, ie fine


On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Hey zMan,

 I entered 'ca va' in French comes bac as 'okay' which is correct, I lived
 in Europe and spoke French. Very impressive converting languages

 Scott ford
 www.identityforge.com
 from my IPAD

 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


  On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:09 PM, zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Or go to Google Translate (translate.google.com). It even handles
  transliterations quite well: put in spasebo and tell it's Russian; it
  will say:
  Did you mean: спасебо
  and then you can translate *that*. I've even had it guess when the
  transliteration wasn't quite right, and get it right (I concluded, based
 on
  context).
 
  We're getting pretty far OT here, not that that's anything new.
 
 
  On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht
  elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za wrote:
  deleted
  My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then
  Google is useless.
  deleted
  Try using http://www.google.fr for french words?
  (use a country suffix where that lanquage is used).
 
  --
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  Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

Yep..but on Switzerland French shall we say interesting like the Swiss German

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


 On Dec 5, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Wayne Bickerdike wayn...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Literal translation would be that goes, ca va is a shortened comment ca
 va, ie how goes it(that)?. OK would be ca va bien. Without bien it's
 meaningless in the context. Bien would be the OK piece, ie fine
 
 
 On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 Hey zMan,
 
 I entered 'ca va' in French comes bac as 'okay' which is correct, I lived
 in Europe and spoke French. Very impressive converting languages
 
 Scott ford
 www.identityforge.com
 from my IPAD
 
 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'
 
 
 On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:09 PM, zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Or go to Google Translate (translate.google.com). It even handles
 transliterations quite well: put in spasebo and tell it's Russian; it
 will say:
 Did you mean: спасебо
 and then you can translate *that*. I've even had it guess when the
 transliteration wasn't quite right, and get it right (I concluded, based
 on
 context).
 
 We're getting pretty far OT here, not that that's anything new.
 
 
 On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht
 elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za wrote:
 deleted
 My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then
 Google is useless.
 deleted
 Try using http://www.google.fr for french words?
 (use a country suffix where that lanquage is used).
 
 --
 Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
 Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
 
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 -- 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread R.S.

W dniu 2013-12-05 19:38, Scott Ford pisze:

I always thought VMS was *nix like??? If not what opsys is it similar too or is
it's own thang
In simple words: No. VMS is similar to ...VMS, and maybe older DEC
systems which I don't know (RSX-11 AFAIR).

Few concepts of VMS:
Unix has single root, VMS has drives similar to DOS/Windows (AFAIR not
drive LETTER, but drive NAME)

both systems use directory, subdirectory concept to for grouping files
another syntax, square parentheses are used for pathname
interesting thing: [...] means this directory and all subdirectories.
Can be used for i.e. DEL *.BAK in whole tree.
Filename is file.extension both components up to 40 characters. only two
components (qualifiers) allowed. Second qualifier plays role similar to
DOS extension, i.e. LOGIN.COM is king of .profile or AUTOEXEC.BAT and
it's executable script. Files also have third part: version, usually
omitted. Full name is FILE.EXTENSION;version (a number).
All file names were uppercase charcters allowed wer similar to MVS. No
tricky names possible (try to use filename * in Unix and then delete it).
Directories can be nested up to 8 levels. further nesting is allowed,
but indirectly: you have to create 'symbolic' drive at some directory level.

Most files are plain like in unix or DOS/Windows, but some file can have
internal structure - like PS, or VSAM.

Commands are much longer than in Unix.
Command syntax is similar to DOS, but command names and parameters tend
to be longer.

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread Anne Lynn Wheeler

paulgboul...@aim.com (Paul Gilmartin) writes:
 And an alien once asked me, VM is a version of MVS, isn't it?

cms had about 64kbytes of code that was the os simulator that allowed
os compilers and many applications to run unmodified.

the burlington mall vm370 development group was working on a much more
complete coverage of os simulation ... joke about cms 64kbyte os/360
simulation was much more cost effective than mvs 8mbyte os/360
simulation.

this was about the time the FS effort failed, mad rush to get products
back into the 370 pipeline (having been suspended and/or killed off
during the FS period)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys

head of POK also managed to convince corporate to kill the vm370
product, shutdown burlington mall group, and transfer all the burlington
mall developers to POK or otherwise MVS/XA wouldn't ship on
time. Endicott eventually managed to save the vm370 product mission but
had to reconstitute a development group from scratch.

the shutdown of burlington was going on in extreme secret, not planning
on telling the people until a few weeks before it was effective
... minimizing the number of people that would be able to escape the
move to POK. however, the shutdown managed to leak a few months early
... and numerous people managed to escape ... so many going to work at
DEC on VMS (very early in its development, well before first VMS release
shipped) ... that somebody observed that the head of POK was one of the
biggest contributors to VMS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX

The major expansion of os/360 simulation for cms disappeared in the
shutdown of the burlington mall group ... and the major person
responsible was one of those that went to DEC.

old post with decade of vax/vms numbers sliced and diced by year,
model, US/non-US ... etc:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#0

vax/vms sold into much the same mid-range market against vm/4300 ... and
in similar numbers ... for small order sizes (one or few machines). A
big difference was large corporations ordering several hundred vm/4300s
at a time for deployment out in departmental areas. A past post
mentioning explosion in vm/4300 departmental machines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#15 departmental servers

the explosion of vm/4300 machines inside ibm was one of the
reasons the internal network passed 1000 nodes in 1983
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

Gil and R.S.,

I was curious about VMS because I haven't worked on that platform. Worked many 
others in a past life supporting LU 6.2 file transfer on 26 platforms. But that 
was like a lifetime ago.
I went from OS/VS2 to VSE to VM/VSE , then MVS so I feel your pain Gil

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


 On Dec 5, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote:
 
 On Thu, 5 Dec 2013 13:38:46 -0500, Scott Ford wrote:
 
 I always thought VMS was *nix like??? If not what opsys is it similar too or 
 is it's own thang
 What's *nix like?  On a cursory brush, I believe VMS has a hierarchic
 filesystem.  That's *nix like.  It doesn't have an ALLOCATE command.
 That's *nix like.  Its files can have attributes.  That's MVS-like.
 
 I knew two programmers: one transplanted from a UNIX environment
 to VMS who spent much effort customing his VMS profile to make VMS
 behave like UNIX; the other transplanted from a UNIX environment
 who tried to make VMS behave like UNIX.  Myself?  I spent (wasted)
 enormous effort trying to make the uglier parts of XEDIT behave like
 their nicer ISPF analogues.
 
 VMS delimits its version numbers with ';'.  Imagine how that must
 infuriate anyone accustomed to using ';' as a command separator.
 
 And an alien once asked me, VM is a version of MVS, isn't it?
 
 -- gil
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 07:34:48 +1100, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:

Literal translation would be that goes, ca va is a shortened comment ca
va, ie how goes it(that)?. OK would be ca va bien. Without bien it's
meaningless in the context. Bien would be the OK piece, ie fine
 
Think idiom.  First relevant Google hit:

http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/a/cava.htm

(Spelling: ça va.)

-- gil

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread Phil Smith

Tony Harminc wrote:
Unfortunately that takes me to https://www.google.ca, which doesn't
seem to have a search tools choice. I can force Google to go to the
.com (i.e. US) site, but it's still HTTPS, and it still has no search
tools that I can see. And merely quoting a phrase doesn't (contrary to
their claim) restrict the search to the exact quoted string.

The Search Tools appear on *results* pages, to refine them. Sorry, I totally 
buggered this up by not mentioning that wee detail!

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

Gil,

Your correct it's an idiom..slang...more or less...in 3 yrs in Switzerland I 
learned I needed a better accent to speak French and Swiss German and don't ask 
for items in French in a Swiss German canton or State..it ain't pretty

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


 On Dec 5, 2013, at 6:32 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote:
 
 On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 07:34:48 +1100, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
 
 Literal translation would be that goes, ca va is a shortened comment ca
 va, ie how goes it(that)?. OK would be ca va bien. Without bien it's
 meaningless in the context. Bien would be the OK piece, ie fine
 Think idiom.  First relevant Google hit:
 
http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/a/cava.htm
 
 (Spelling: ça va.)
 
 -- gil
 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-05 Thread Mike Schwab

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9239984/OpenVMS_R.I.P._1977_2020_



On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
 I always thought VMS was *nix like??? If not what opsys is it similar too or 
 is it's own thang

 Scott ford
 www.identityforge.com
 from my IPAD

 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'



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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
CAArMM9QeTw591qh8H1Y1+uMEH=i_sav7rzpbjaxi9nvjsiu...@mail.gmail.com,
on 12/03/2013
   at 06:49 PM, Tony Harminc t...@harminc.net said:

OK. STATUS with no operands doesn't call the TSO 
CANCEL/STATUS/OUTPUT exit, but a JES exit can perform job 
selection for STATUS using any criteria it likes.

Has IBM changed the FIB-JES interface? If not, it can't be done.
 
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 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
CAArMM9TchzPZCAeKDsSjVJWZ2JWkBHBQpsikzWYG2w=6u04...@mail.gmail.com,
on 12/03/2013
   at 07:00 PM, Tony Harminc t...@harminc.net said:

But for that matter, even Google insists on searching for things 
vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then the actual thing.

I don't recall google ever honoring a request for an exact match.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
CAJTOO58Xck4+UK5AnobEZ=kztcrte1azgmf86r77emdb0pj...@mail.gmail.com,
on 12/03/2013
   at 06:53 PM, Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com said:

My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF
key.

Various *ix shells have file completion. Is there an open requirement
for IBM to support it for an NVT login to OMVS?
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread John Gilmore

|| But for that matter, even Google insists on searching for things
|| vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then the actual thing.

| I don't recall google ever honoring a request for an exact match.

We're not dealing with what Google wishes to honor,  We're dealing
with the problem of resolving semantic ambiguity, which humans are
extraordinarily good at and even ther best AI methods cannot reaslly
cope with.

Interestingly, Google ujses essentially the same methods for q

On 12/4/13, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net wrote:
 In
 CAJTOO58Xck4+UK5AnobEZ=kztcrte1azgmf86r77emdb0pj...@mail.gmail.com,
 on 12/03/2013
at 06:53 PM, Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com said:

My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF
key.

 Various *ix shells have file completion. Is there an open requirement
 for IBM to support it for an NVT login to OMVS?

 --
  Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
  ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html
 We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
 (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In
b870629719727b4ba82a6c06a31c29124c5781e...@hqmailsvr01.voltage.com,
on 12/03/2013
   at 04:48 PM, Phil Smith p...@voltage.com said:

Re Google:

What URL? I normally use
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en. Or are you referring to
a google browser plugin rather than their web site?

use verbatim search. Look under Search tools,

Do you mean search? I don't see Search tools.
 
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 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Elardus Engelbrecht

Tony Harminc said:
But for that matter, even Google insists on searching for things vaguely close 
to what I asked for, rather then the actual thing.

Indeed. I sometimes had to use advanced searches, but you need to search (sic) 
for that picture of a gear (options), where you can then search (sic) for 
'advanced search'. 


Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:

I don't recall google ever honoring a request for an exact match.

Neither me, but I hate 'Instant predictions', so I usually turn that feature 
off.

I don't like to see (annoying) sponsored hits, but then Google is a free thing 
and must make money in one or other way. 

My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then Google 
is useless.

Perfect search engines have not been invented, but I recall in the early years 
of Internet, you could hire 'search experts' to do searches for 'search 
challenged' dummies... :-D

Hmmm, now with all those threads, how do you search for that perfect Operating 
System? :-D

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Clark Morris

On 29 Nov 2013 14:02:35 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

In 0378217484586824.wa.zatlas1yahoo@listserv.ua.edu, on
11/29/2013
   at 11:47 AM, Ze'ev Atlas zatl...@yahoo.com said:

Again, you discuss the shortcoming of a specific system while I have
a broad view.

You're specific systems; I'm still trying to figure out what it is in
them that you want to change.

There would always be the need to disambiguate.

Then what behavior do you want to change? For normal use in Unix,
including z/OS, and for legacy z/OS data sets, the user just gives a
name and the system figures out where it is.

That's correct and that's where I took the idea from.  That concept
needs improvements

No doubt, but so far you haven't identified any defect that a new type
of catalog would resolve.

Another great idea from the z/OS that deserve implementation in 
that context (i.e. Central System Catalog) is the famous GDG.  
Whenever I explain the concept to my Unix friends they agree that 
such a brilliant idea should have been implemented in Unix as well.

They'd do better stealing the idea from DEC, specifically from VMS.
 
There is at least one shell that runs on HP-UX that implement a GDG
like facility with just a g instead of a gv00.  What was the
VMS facility like?

Clark Morris

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread John Gilmore

. . . previous post continued

[q]ueries and the placement of advertisements.  Yesterday we had a
discussion of the LE HEAPCHECK facilitiy.  Googling it this morning
yielded advertisements for cheap personalized bank checks.

Given the current state of the art exclusion oif notional irrelevance
is more difficult than providing relevance.  If such a line as

I used my pen to pen a description of the pen in the pen.

is improved my providing disambiguating context, as in

I used my Mont Blanc pen to pen a description of the pen and her
cygnets in trhe poultry pen.

more relevant information will be turned up, but irrelevant responses
will not  be excluded.

John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Phil Smith

Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
What URL? I normally use
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en. Or are you referring to
a google browser plugin rather than their web site?

Well, common sense would suggest www.google.comhttp://www.google.com. Try 
that.

...phsiii

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread R.S.

W dniu 2013-12-04 16:16, Clark Morris pisze:

On 29 Nov 2013 14:02:35 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

In 0378217484586824.wa.zatlas1yahoo@listserv.ua.edu, on
11/29/2013
at 11:47 AM, Ze'ev Atlas zatl...@yahoo.com said:

Again, you discuss the shortcoming of a specific system while I have
a broad view.

You're specific systems; I'm still trying to figure out what it is in
them that you want to change.

There would always be the need to disambiguate.

Then what behavior do you want to change? For normal use in Unix,
including z/OS, and for legacy z/OS data sets, the user just gives a
name and the system figures out where it is.

That's correct and that's where I took the idea from. That concept
needs improvements

No doubt, but so far you haven't identified any defect that a new type
of catalog would resolve.

Another great idea from the z/OS that deserve implementation in
that context (i.e. Central System Catalog) is the famous GDG.
Whenever I explain the concept to my Unix friends they agree that
such a brilliant idea should have been implemented in Unix as well.

They'd do better stealing the idea from DEC, specifically from VMS.

There is at least one shell that runs on HP-UX that implement a GDG
like facility with just a g instead of a gv00. What was the
VMS facility like?

1. VMS is not Unix and it's probably even more vanishing platform than z/OS.
2. In my not so humble opinion idea of GDG is simply uncompleted. While
I could understand memory constraints in 60's or 70's I cannot accept
lack of LIMIT(365) or more, to mention the most annoying drwaback.
3. IMHO the reason for GDG uncompletness is ...batch scheduler
existence. Most serious shops do use any of them and each batcg
scheduler offers more or less sophisticated features which are far more
flexible than GDG. It's not goo-voo, it is %%ODATE, with many possible
date calculations like yesterday or last working day or last
working day in previous month, etc. etc.

My €0,02

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread John McKown

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:34 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) 
shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net wrote:

 In
 CAJTOO58Xck4+UK5AnobEZ=kztcrte1azgmf86r77emdb0pj...@mail.gmail.com,
 on 12/03/2013
at 06:53 PM, Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com said:

 My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
 name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF
 key.

 Various *ix shells have file completion. Is there an open requirement
 for IBM to support it for an NVT login to OMVS?


NVT? I can use both/either ssh and/or telnet (line mode) to get a TCPIP
connection directly to a z/OS UNIX shell (no VTAM involved beyond the TRLE
which controls the OSA). The ssh connection is via OpenSSH (to which I
added the enhancements from Dovetailed Technologies). The telnet connection
is via the inetd UNIX daemon (started task). I don't know of any way to use
VTAM in line mode, such as a 3767 LU-1 emulation, to get a UNIX shell,
but don't know why I would want to that either.

To start inetd at OMVS startup, I put a line in /etc/rc like:

_BPX_JOBNAME=INETD /usr/sbin/inetd /etc/inetd.conf 

and have a /etc/inetd.conf file containing the line:

2023 stream tcpip nowait BPXROOT /usr/sbin/otelnetd otelnetd -l -t -D login

I use port 2023 because, for some weird reason, we have port 23 going into
VTAM. This despite the fact that nothing is really using port 23 in VTAM.
Likely something left over from an IBM supplied member which I'm too much
of a coward to change.

/bin/sh can do a very primitive form of completion in vi mode wth the
ctrl-\ key. But it is a very poor implementation because once it expands to
the first non-matching character, it does not display the alternatives
possible at that point.

The ported BASH shell, although very old, does do file completion
properly via the TAB (^i) key.




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  ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html



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hunchbacks.

Maranatha! 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013 10:09:08 -0500, John Gilmore  wrote:

We're not dealing with what Google wishes to honor,  We're dealing
with the problem of resolving semantic ambiguity, which humans are
extraordinarily good at and even ther best AI methods cannot reaslly
cope with.
 
Watson?  But how would Watson do on a NYT crossword puzzle?  A
recent example: the clue was John Paul's successor.  The answer,
Elena.  (I got it mostly on intersecting words.)  Resolving semantic
ambiguity depends on lots of background, cultural context.

-- gil

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread DASDBILL2

I search for single words not in English almost every day, always with Google's 
Advanced Search, and Google is very useful for me. 

E.g., earlier today I searched for  κρυπτός  and found this url in the first 
hit:   http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CF%81%CF%85%CF%80%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%82 

This webpage in Wiktionary told me that my search word is an ancient Greek word 
meaning hidden or secret in modern English.  This was not useless.  I have 
also found what I needed to know sometimes by getting a hit on a webpage that 
is in French, Spanish, or some other language that I can read well enough to 
determine, e.g., the gender of the search word or its English meaning, when I 
could not quickly find such a page in English. 

Bill Fairchild 

Franklin, TN 

- Original Message -

From: Elardus Engelbrecht elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 9:16:18 AM 
Subject: Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging 
Sysprogs = Aging Farmers 

My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then Google 
is useless. 



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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Mike Schwab

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht
elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za wrote:
deleted
 My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then 
 Google is useless.
deleted
Try using http://www.google.fr for french words?
(use a country suffix where that lanquage is used).

-- 
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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread zMan

Or go to Google Translate (translate.google.com). It even handles
transliterations quite well: put in spasebo and tell it's Russian; it
will say:
Did you mean: спасебо
and then you can translate *that*. I've even had it guess when the
transliteration wasn't quite right, and get it right (I concluded, based on
context).

We're getting pretty far OT here, not that that's anything new.


On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht
 elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za wrote:
 deleted
  My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then
 Google is useless.
 deleted
 Try using http://www.google.fr for french words?
 (use a country suffix where that lanquage is used).

 --
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 Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Scott Ford

Hey zMan,

I entered 'ca va' in French comes bac as 'okay' which is correct, I lived in 
Europe and spoke French. Very impressive converting languages

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


 On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:09 PM, zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Or go to Google Translate (translate.google.com). It even handles
 transliterations quite well: put in spasebo and tell it's Russian; it
 will say:
 Did you mean: спасебо
 and then you can translate *that*. I've even had it guess when the
 transliteration wasn't quite right, and get it right (I concluded, based on
 context).
 
 We're getting pretty far OT here, not that that's anything new.
 
 
 On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht
 elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za wrote:
 deleted
 My pet peeve is - when I search a word in a language, not English, then
 Google is useless.
 deleted
 Try using http://www.google.fr for french words?
 (use a country suffix where that lanquage is used).
 
 --
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 Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Tony Harminc

On 4 December 2013 10:46, Phil Smith p...@voltage.com wrote:

 Well, common sense would suggest www.google.comhttp://www.google.com. Try 
 that.

Unfortunately that takes me to https://www.google.ca, which doesn't
seem to have a search tools choice. I can force Google to go to the
.com (i.e. US) site, but it's still HTTPS, and it still has no search
tools that I can see. And merely quoting a phrase doesn't (contrary to
their claim) restrict the search to the exact quoted string.

Tony H.

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-04 Thread Tony Harminc

On 4 December 2013 19:33, Tony Harminc t...@harminc.net wrote:
 Well, common sense would suggest www.google.comhttp://www.google.com. Try 
 that.

 Unfortunately that takes me to https://www.google.ca, which doesn't
 seem to have a search tools choice. I can force Google to go to the
 .com (i.e. US) site, but it's still HTTPS, and it still has no search
 tools that I can see. And merely quoting a phrase doesn't (contrary to
 their claim) restrict the search to the exact quoted string.

Ah - Search Tools is on the search *results* screen, i.e. after the
initial non-verbatim search. Thanks!

Tony H.

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Miklos Szigetvari


On 03.12.2013 07:13, David Crayford wrote:

On 3/12/2013 4:16 AM, Kirk Wolf wrote:

  I would
guess that the tricky part would be replacing the interface to inotify
with w_ioctl / Iocc#regFileInt


I could be wrong but it looks like Iocc#regFileInt doesn't support 
monitoring directories, which diminishes it's value. A port of inotify 
for z/OS would be a very nice to have.



It is true as we have tried to use this to detect directoy changes.

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In 529cd1c5.9030...@tulsagrammer.com, on 12/02/2013
   at 12:30 PM, Eric Chevalier et...@tulsagrammer.com said:

I believe the issue some people are trying to address with a Unix 
catalog is the case where you DON'T know the full path.

A central repository won't solve that problem.

I know it's called stroganoff.txt

Unless it's your only recipe, you've got a problem.

Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the 
unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file.

Such facilities already exist, without the need for a central
repository. They aren't very helpful for background scripts.

What I see as more helpful would be Multics-style search rules
(STEPCAT on steroids), but that still leaves the issue of getting the
right one when there are duplicates.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In
CAE1XxDF9CN8XdrzH4rBVgzkNTW0aD=rb9ue4v6odux-dbdq...@mail.gmail.com,
on 12/02/2013
   at 02:48 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com said:

Worth noting, and not at all to clear from, indeed antiothetical 
to, the title of this thread is that we are now addressing a 
deficiency of UNIX, not one of the MVS side of z/OS.

The issue exists in both, in slightly different form. In neither case
do I see a central repository doing anything for the user.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In
CAArMM9QE1XRUYPzNjuwW6uj2HoC9RAN0RQaovr1OU=uveo9...@mail.gmail.com,
on 12/02/2013
   at 06:19 PM, Tony Harminc t...@harminc.net said:

I'm not sure in what sense it replies on it.

Consider the STATUS command.
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Tony Harminc

On 2 December 2013 14:02, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote:
 On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:30:29 -0600, Eric Chevalier wrote:
[...]
Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the
unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can
search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the
locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has
had such a facility since at least XP.)

 As has OS X.  Also search by substring of filename, and by content.

I don't know about OS X, but recent version of Windows have seriousl
dumbed down the search interface to the point that it's almost
impossible to distinguish between file names and approximate strings
inside the files. But for that matter, even Google insists on
searching for things vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then
the actual thing.

Tony H.

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Scott Ford

Tony,

Sloppy coding at google ?

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


 On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:00 PM, Tony Harminc t...@harminc.net wrote:
 
 On 2 December 2013 14:02, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote:
 On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:30:29 -0600, Eric Chevalier wrote:
 [...]
 Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the
 unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can
 search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the
 locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has
 had such a facility since at least XP.)
 As has OS X.  Also search by substring of filename, and by content.
 
 I don't know about OS X, but recent version of Windows have seriousl
 dumbed down the search interface to the point that it's almost
 impossible to distinguish between file names and approximate strings
 inside the files. But for that matter, even Google insists on
 searching for things vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then
 the actual thing.
 
 Tony H.
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Phil Smith

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Tony Harminc 
t...@harminc.netmailto:t...@harminc.net wrote:
I don't know about OS X, but recent version of Windows have seriousl
dumbed down the search interface to the point that it's almost
impossible to distinguish between file names and approximate strings
inside the files. But for that matter, even Google insists on
searching for things vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then
the actual thing.

Thank you, Tony: I thought it was just me! Drives me nuts. I wind up opening a 
command prompt and using DIR (or grep, depending).

Re Google: use verbatim search. Look under Search tools, then All results 
to find that. I discovered this when I was trying to factcheck a story about an 
elderly man who got a sensitive part of his anatomy stuck in a chair (I forget 
why this was interesting at the time, honest!). The word I was searching for 
has three syllables and begins with t, but Google kept presenting results 
that had the word balls in them. Smart is good - when I search for 5 cups 
and it offers five cups, that's a GOOD thing. But it does go too far 
sometimes. (Also try searching for a restaurant whose name is Italian in 
Virginia [VA] - va is a common Italian word, so you get tons of hits *from 
Italy, in Italian*. Adding language:english to the search helps there).

...phsiii

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Mike Schwab

My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF key.
 The routine would open a popup window with a list of possible
matches.  You could select a option by tabbing to the line with the
desired match and pressing enter, or alter the search argument and
pressing enter to search again.  Would work very much like ISPF 3.4 or
the mentioned directory listing.

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Phil Smith p...@voltage.com wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Tony Harminc 
 t...@harminc.netmailto:t...@harminc.net wrote:
I don't know about OS X, but recent version of Windows have seriousl
dumbed down the search interface to the point that it's almost
impossible to distinguish between file names and approximate strings
inside the files. But for that matter, even Google insists on
searching for things vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then
the actual thing.

 Thank you, Tony: I thought it was just me! Drives me nuts. I wind up opening 
 a command prompt and using DIR (or grep, depending).

 Re Google: use verbatim search. Look under Search tools, then All 
 results to find that. I discovered this when I was trying to factcheck a 
 story about an elderly man who got a sensitive part of his anatomy stuck in a 
 chair (I forget why this was interesting at the time, honest!). The word I 
 was searching for has three syllables and begins with t, but Google kept 
 presenting results that had the word balls in them. Smart is good - when 
 I search for 5 cups and it offers five cups, that's a GOOD thing. But it 
 does go too far sometimes. (Also try searching for a restaurant whose name is 
 Italian in Virginia [VA] - va is a common Italian word, so you get tons of 
 hits *from Italy, in Italian*. Adding language:english to the search helps 
 there).

 ...phsiii

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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread John McKown

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com wrote:

 My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
 name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF key.
  The routine would open a popup window with a list of possible
 matches.  You could select a option by tabbing to the line with the
 desired match and pressing enter, or alter the search argument and
 pressing enter to search again.  Would work very much like ISPF 3.4 or
 the mentioned directory listing.


In a true shell environment (not TSO OMVS), The BASH shell does this with
the TAB key (I guess in TSO OMVS, this would be a ctrl-i, using the TSO
OMVS escape character to emulate the ctrl key press). If you use the
standard /bin/sh in z/OS UNIX, and do a set -o vi, then if there exists
at least one file name which matches the prefix you entered, a Ctrl-\ (^\)
will either: (1) extend the name with the remaining characters in the
unique name or; (2) extend the remaining shared characters in the set of
possibly matching names. In case #2, with BASH, hitting the TAB key a
second time will show all matching names, letting you type in some more
characters, then TAB again. Unfortunately, /bin/sh does _NOT_ help in this
situation. Which is why I often have _TWO_ shell prompts up in separate
windows. One with my command, and another to do an ls command to see
which file name I want. I then cut from the ls window and paste into the
other window which contains my command.


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John McKown

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-03 Thread Scott Ford

Mike,
I like that solution, very nice . Love time savers ...especially when your up 
to your ...in alligators 

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


 On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:53 PM, Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 My thought.  While you are typing a command with a partial Unix file
 name, leave the cursor at the end of the file name and press a PF key.
 The routine would open a popup window with a list of possible
 matches.  You could select a option by tabbing to the line with the
 desired match and pressing enter, or alter the search argument and
 pressing enter to search again.  Would work very much like ISPF 3.4 or
 the mentioned directory listing.
 
 On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Phil Smith p...@voltage.com wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Tony Harminc 
 t...@harminc.netmailto:t...@harminc.net wrote:
 I don't know about OS X, but recent version of Windows have seriousl
 dumbed down the search interface to the point that it's almost
 impossible to distinguish between file names and approximate strings
 inside the files. But for that matter, even Google insists on
 searching for things vaguely close to what I asked for, rather then
 the actual thing.
 
 Thank you, Tony: I thought it was just me! Drives me nuts. I wind up opening 
 a command prompt and using DIR (or grep, depending).
 
 Re Google: use verbatim search. Look under Search tools, then All 
 results to find that. I discovered this when I was trying to factcheck a 
 story about an elderly man who got a sensitive part of his anatomy stuck in 
 a chair (I forget why this was interesting at the time, honest!). The word I 
 was searching for has three syllables and begins with t, but Google kept 
 presenting results that had the word balls in them. Smart is good - when 
 I search for 5 cups and it offers five cups, that's a GOOD thing. But it 
 does go too far sometimes. (Also try searching for a restaurant whose name 
 is Italian in Virginia [VA] - va is a common Italian word, so you get tons 
 of hits *from Italy, in Italian*. Adding language:english to the search 
 helps there).
 
 ...phsiii
 
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 Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
 Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
 
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In 1885724251.2483267.1385936064169.javamail.r...@comcast.net, on
12/01/2013
   at 10:14 PM, DASDBILL2 dasdbi...@comcast.net said:

I believe John Gilmore meant that the original S/360 architects
thought that the system should support at least five levels in a 
file name and that each level could be as long as eight bytes.

Whether or not that's what John meant, it's certainly a reasonable
reading of the architects' intent.

I suspect that this value of eight came from the maximum length 
of a PDS member name,

It's hard to say, but certainly the CVOL data structure is similar to
a PDS directory.

 
-- 
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 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In 20131201232728.GA25455@dlc-dt, on 12/01/2013
   at 06:27 PM, David L. Craig dlc@gmail.com said:

If I remember correctly, the sole reason for limiting TSO IDs to a
maximum of seven characters was to ensure running batch jobnames
submitted by TSO users would never conflict with the TSO session or
each other.

I don't know which came first in the design, but it is certainly true
that FIB relies on an appended character and that various data
structures, e.g., UADS, UPT, are hardwired for 7. Neither sets a limit
on an HLQ that is not a userid and is not specified in PROFILE PREFIX.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)

In 6aee915e-660b-471b-837c-b2ef76d0a...@comcast.net, on 12/01/2013
   at 06:15 PM, Ed Gould edgould1...@comcast.net said:

I remember distinctly that UID's were limited to 7 characters.

Yes, as was prefix. However, a FQDSN could have an 8-character HLQ.
 
-- 
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We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Eric Chevalier


On 12/1/13 7:51 AM, Dan Espen wrote:


Actually, your whole description is bizarre and I think wrong.

With a UNIX file, how do I NOT know where /var/log/messages is?

As long as you use a full path, you know where everything is.


I believe the issue some people are trying to address with a Unix 
catalog is the case where you DON'T know the full path. For example, 
suppose I have a recipe for Beef Stroganoff somewhere on my hard drive. 
I know it's called stroganoff.txt but I don't remember where I put it. 
I can certainly use the find command to locate the file, but my hard 
disk is large with several hundred thousand files. find may take a 
noticeable amount of time to locate the file.


Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the 
unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can 
search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the 
locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has 
had such a facility since at least XP.)


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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:30:29 -0600, Eric Chevalier wrote:

I believe the issue some people are trying to address with a Unix
catalog is the case where you DON'T know the full path. ...

Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the
unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can
search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the
locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has
had such a facility since at least XP.)
 
As has OS X.  Also search by substring of filename, and by content.

-- gil

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:15:04 -0600, Ed Gould wrote:

I remember distinctly that UID's were limited to 7 characters.
One of the reasons was that UADS had a directory of 8 characters and
the 8th character was reserved for UID's needing more space in UADS
so a character was reserved (shaky here but the 8th character was
either 0, 1 2 etc) to allow more space ...

UID was 7 characters.
The eighth was reserved for UADS as either 0 thru 8
 
I've heard further that while UADS is a very ordinary PDS, updates
are performed in place to reduce the need for compress.  As a
consequence, an existing member can't be extended except by
allocating an extension member.

-- gil

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread John Gilmore

Worth noting, and not at all to clear from, indeed antiothetical to,
the title of this thread is that we are now addressing a deficiency of
UNIX, not one of the MVS side of z/OS.

John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Gerhard Postpischil


On 12/2/2013 10:54 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:

It's hard to say, but certainly the CVOL data structure is similar to
a PDS directory.


Considering that they share code in common (e.g., directory 
initialization and catalog formatting), it's extremely likely.


I was wondering about the five levels - office, department, group, 
project, name?




Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, Vermont

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread John Gilmore

Using pooled data from three large shops I found for index-level usage
in 28K cataloged PDSs, PDSEs, and GDGs:

level, percent | histogram
1, 00 |
2, 41 |
3, 31 |xx
4, 24 |x
5, 05 |

These results strongly suggest---They of course stop well short of
proving---that five index levels is enough.  (Sum of percents is not
100 because of rounding.)

John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Kirk Wolf

A list of desktop search engines (which actually have little to do with
desktops) -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_search_engines#Desktop_search_engines

Something like Recoil / Xapian could probably be ported to z/OS.  I would
guess that the tricky part would be replacing the interface to inotify
with w_ioctl / Iocc#regFileInt

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com


On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote:

 On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:30:29 -0600, Eric Chevalier wrote:
 
 I believe the issue some people are trying to address with a Unix
 catalog is the case where you DON'T know the full path. ...
 
 Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the
 unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can
 search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the
 locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has
 had such a facility since at least XP.)
 
 As has OS X.  Also search by substring of filename, and by content.

 -- gil

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread John Gilmore

David [Andrews]:

300K data sets all having six-level DSN values suggests that there is
a standard in place that enforces their use, and you have implicitly
said what it is.

What this suggests to me is that four levels are enough for your
purposes, leaving two available for DATE.TIME values (or,
alternatively, that you use schemes that generate many otherwise
identical DSNs that you then make unique using DATE.TIME values to do
so).

John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Ed Gould


Gil,

Yes UADS was a PDS and there were some unusual items in UAD that were  
semi hidden.
One I remember stumbling into was CPU time that the user had  
accumulated since the creation of the ID.

Very sneaky (IIRC) .


Ed

On Dec 2, 2013, at 1:08 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:


On Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:15:04 -0600, Ed Gould wrote:


I remember distinctly that UID's were limited to 7 characters.
One of the reasons was that UADS had a directory of 8 characters and
the 8th character was reserved for UID's needing more space in UADS
so a character was reserved (shaky here but the 8th character was
either 0, 1 2 etc) to allow more space ...

UID was 7 characters.
The eighth was reserved for UADS as either 0 thru 8


I've heard further that while UADS is a very ordinary PDS, updates
are performed in place to reduce the need for compress.  As a
consequence, an existing member can't be extended except by
allocating an extension member.

-- gil

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Tony Harminc

On 2 December 2013 11:01, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net wrote:
 In 20131201232728.GA25455@dlc-dt, on 12/01/2013
at 06:27 PM, David L. Craig dlc@gmail.com said:

If I remember correctly, the sole reason for limiting TSO IDs to a
maximum of seven characters was to ensure running batch jobnames
submitted by TSO users would never conflict with the TSO session or
each other.

 I don't know which came first in the design, but it is certainly true
 that FIB relies on an appended character

I'm not sure in what sense it replies on it. Nothing other than
perhaps a user exit or JESn/RACF settings stops a TSO SUBMIT user from
submitting a job with any jobname except the userid itself. And a user
exit can allow a user to use the other FIB commands on any jobname.

Tony H.

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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread Scott Ford

Kirk,

Absolutely, that would be a great , interesting conversion to z/OS

Scott ford
www.identityforge.com
from my IPAD

'Infinite wisdom through infinite means'


 On Dec 2, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Kirk Wolf k...@dovetail.com wrote:
 
 A list of desktop search engines (which actually have little to do with
 desktops) -
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_search_engines#Desktop_search_engines
 
 Something like Recoil / Xapian could probably be ported to z/OS.  I would
 guess that the tricky part would be replacing the interface to inotify
 with w_ioctl / Iocc#regFileInt
 
 Kirk Wolf
 Dovetailed Technologies
 http://dovetail.com
 
 
 On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote:
 
 On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:30:29 -0600, Eric Chevalier wrote:
 
 I believe the issue some people are trying to address with a Unix
 catalog is the case where you DON'T know the full path. ...
 
 Now suppose I have some sort of index file where the key is the
 unqualified file name and the data is the path to that file. I can
 search the index for my file name and it should quickly show me all the
 locations where a file by that name is located. (Note that Windows has
 had such a facility since at least XP.)
 
 As has OS X.  Also search by substring of filename, and by content.
 
 -- gil
 
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Re: Catalog system for Unix Was: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-02 Thread David Crayford


On 3/12/2013 4:16 AM, Kirk Wolf wrote:

  I would
guess that the tricky part would be replacing the interface to inotify
with w_ioctl / Iocc#regFileInt


I could be wrong but it looks like Iocc#regFileInt doesn't support 
monitoring directories, which diminishes it's value. A port of inotify 
for z/OS would be a very nice to have.


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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread John Gilmore

There is a restaurant near me here, just west of Boston in the United
States, that serves 'fusion cuisine', its dishes are a mixture of the
ingredients and techniques of Greek, Indochinese, and French cuisine.

Some of these dishes are successful, but too many are not: their menu
descriptions read well, but they do not really work.

Analogously, combining attractive features from UNIX and [different]
attractive features from z/OS may sometimes yield a viable, powerful
new facility.  Often, however, it will not; and Shmuel is right to be
concerned about and suspicious of the semantics of such 'unholy
combinations'.

Ze'ev appears to me to want to graft what are essentially interactive,
conversational facilities onto JCL, which is a batch facility.  This
may well be possible, but doing it will require careful thought and
much experimentation/evolutionary operation.

Meanwhile, psittacism featuring the numbers 8 and 44 will not be
helpful.  They are not really the problem.

John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread Ze'ev Atlas

Ze'ev appears to me to want to graft what are essentially interactive,
conversational facilities onto JCL, which is a batch facility.  This
may well be possible, but doing it will require careful thought and
much experimentation/evolutionary operation.

I already concluded that the z/OS side may be hopeless because the limitations 
of file name are too entrenched in the OS.  The Unix side (especially Linux 
that is open source) is a better candidate.  No, I do not envision batch 
oriented only features.  Once the file is committed in the traditional way 
(conversational or batch), its location would be known, so when you say in the 
shell (AND THIS IS ONLY ONE EXAMPLE):

cp filename ~/myfolder/myappfolder

filename will be found regardless of where it is.  If filename is common among 
few files, the system may guess, using some algorithm (that indeed, needs much 
experimentation/evolutionary operation in its development) which one you need.  
Otherwise, you might be required to say (AND THIS IS ONLY ONE EXAMPLE):

cp --ppath myapp1 --date 01/01/2013-02/15/2013 filename ~/myfolder/myappfolder

If one bothers to give unique names and if the algorithm for dis-ambiguity 
would be good, the first example would prevail most of the time.

Please forgive the yelling (AND THIS IS ONLY ONE EXAMPLE). While obviously we 
need people to question all possible details so they would be answered and 
thought about in the aforementioned algorithm. I do not want people to shoot 
the idea down just because I referred to only one example.  I begin to have fun 
in toying this ides!

ZA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread Mike Schwab

TSO appends a prefix of your userid to your data set name unless you
specify quotes.

Other operating systems assume the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_directory ,

Working in a shell or script, you can the current directory then you
work within that directory.

Windows shortcuts can specify which directory is the default directory
when you run that program.

Pick an appropriate method and live with it, or specify the full directory path.

On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 12:20 AM, Ze'ev Atlas zatl...@yahoo.com wrote:
That's correct and that's where I took the idea from.  That concept
needs improvements

No doubt, but so far you haven't identified any defect that a new type
of catalog would resolve.

 I have identified the defect pretty well, except that you refuse to see that 
 definition and go to circular arguments about semantics!
 I will explain rather than define: In z/OS you are confined to 44 characters 
 and limited to however many levels could be expressed within that limit, but 
 you do not need to tell the system where the file resides because that 
 information is stored in the catalog.  In Unix, you do not have those length 
 and level limitations, but you need to be explicit in describing where the 
 file is or go through the trouble of creating symbolic links.
 Both sides are awkward, require too much memorization and each one has a 
 glaring defect as identified above.

 With the envisioned catalog, file names are not limited in length or form, 
 yet the system would know where do they reside.  In case of two (or more) 
 files that share the same name, a sophisticated implementation may either 
 decide by context (e.g. a file that is owned by the requester would be 
 preferred to file owned by somebody else - THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE, PLEASE DO 
 NOT GET INTO SEMANTICS), or ask to disambiguate (e.g. supply only one level 
 that is different between the files - AGAIN, THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE, PLEASE 
 DO NOT GET INTO SEMANTICS)

 ZA

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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread Ted MacNEIL

TSO appends a prefix of your userid to your data set name unless you specify 
quotes.

Don't forget PROFILE NOPREFIX
-
Ted MacNEIL
eamacn...@yahoo.ca
Twitter: @TedMacNEIL

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread Gerhard Postpischil


On 12/1/2013 9:27 AM, Mike Schwab wrote:

TSO appends a prefix of your userid to your data set name unless you
specify quotes.


Sometimes. The value that is prepended is the user id only by default, 
as the user may set a prefix of 1-7 characters.


Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, Vermont

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread zMan

Ahhh. So you want the system to find the file filename *anywhere that it
exists* when you say *verb* filename?

Hmm. Do I want that? Do I want what worked fine yesterday to stop working
today because a download or unzip created a new filename? Even
disambiguation via prompts would be extremely irritating.

I might be interested in a proposal to make the path more pervasive -- so
it would pick up the first filename in the path *on any command*, sort of
like globbing. Haven't really thought that through, but it would at least
be predictable (modulo the same problem of Yesterday, it picked up  one
version of 'filename', in the third directory in my path, and today it
picks up another, in the second directory in my path, but that's at least
easy to figure out).

Let me back it up a level: what's the problem you're trying to solve? Are
you trying to make things more user-friendly? I submit that the
unpredictability this introduces would have the opposite effect.


On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Ze'ev Atlas zatl...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Ze'ev appears to me to want to graft what are essentially interactive,
 conversational facilities onto JCL, which is a batch facility.  This
 may well be possible, but doing it will require careful thought and
 much experimentation/evolutionary operation.

 I already concluded that the z/OS side may be hopeless because the
 limitations of file name are too entrenched in the OS.  The Unix side
 (especially Linux that is open source) is a better candidate.  No, I do not
 envision batch oriented only features.  Once the file is committed in the
 traditional way (conversational or batch), its location would be known, so
 when you say in the shell (AND THIS IS ONLY ONE EXAMPLE):

 cp filename ~/myfolder/myappfolder

 filename will be found regardless of where it is.  If filename is common
 among few files, the system may guess, using some algorithm (that indeed,
 needs much experimentation/evolutionary operation in its development) which
 one you need.  Otherwise, you might be required to say (AND THIS IS ONLY
 ONE EXAMPLE):

 cp --ppath myapp1 --date 01/01/2013-02/15/2013 filename
 ~/myfolder/myappfolder

 If one bothers to give unique names and if the algorithm for dis-ambiguity
 would be good, the first example would prevail most of the time.

 Please forgive the yelling (AND THIS IS ONLY ONE EXAMPLE). While
 obviously we need people to question all possible details so they would be
 answered and thought about in the aforementioned algorithm. I do not want
 people to shoot the idea down just because I referred to only one example.
  I begin to have fun in toying this ides!

 ZA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread John McKown

On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:30 AM, zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ahhh. So you want the system to find the file filename *anywhere that it
 exists* when you say *verb* filename?

 Hmm. Do I want that? Do I want what worked fine yesterday to stop working
 today because a download or unzip created a new filename? Even
 disambiguation via prompts would be extremely irritating.


I still like using the Linux locate command for this. It does a data base
lookup, which is maintained non-real-time via updatedb, and presents a list
of entire path names which match the given input. I may need to look at
getting the source and seeing if I can port it to z/OS UNIX.




 I might be interested in a proposal to make the path more pervasive -- so
 it would pick up the first filename in the path *on any command*, sort of
 like globbing. Haven't really thought that through, but it would at least
 be predictable (modulo the same problem of Yesterday, it picked up  one
 version of 'filename', in the third directory in my path, and today it
 picks up another, in the second directory in my path, but that's at least
 easy to figure out).

 Let me back it up a level: what's the problem you're trying to solve? Are
 you trying to make things more user-friendly? I submit that the
 unpredictability this introduces would have the opposite effect.



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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread Ze'ev Atlas

Let me back it up a level: what's the problem you're trying to solve? Are
you trying to make things more user-friendly? I submit that the
unpredictability this introduces would have the opposite effect.

This is the kind of reaction that I am waiting for, pointing to things that 
need to be answered rather than sticking with the existing model(s).
I admit of not thinking the dis-ambiguity model through all the way yet (this 
conversation is my first attempt of expressing the issue).  And 
unpredictability is for sure a show stopper.  I will think about it and I ask 
anybody who may view this ideas as positive to think about it as well.

Thanks
ZA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread Ze'ev Atlas

I still like using the Linux locate command for this. It does a data base
lookup, which is maintained non-real-time via updatedb, and presents a list
of entire path names which match the given input. I may need to look at
getting the source and seeing if I can port it to z/OS UNIX.

Locate/updatedb is probably the closest to what I want and we could base that 
functionality on it, but why can't we improve it to be yes-real-time?

ZA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Sat, 30 Nov 2013 16:55:58 -0600, Anthony Babonas wrote:

Don't forget the hyphen and x'C0'.
 
Hyphen is strange.  JCL allows hyphen in data set names in some
contexts; reports it as a syntax error elsewhere.  I believe this is
documented.

ISPF LM services allows hyphen in member names in some contexts;
reports it as a syntax error elsewhere.

Is there any rationale for this erratic behavior?  Conway's Law?

I understand that x'C0' was a mistake.  A coder wrote some
sequence of CVD and UNPK, forgetting to repair the sign
nybble (perhaps in SVC numbers?)  It was immediately
recognized as too deeply embedded to repair, and institutionalized.
I'm not an assembler programmer.  Mentally, I can't envision
the exact instruction sequence or should have been.

With a brief exposure to MVS, I started to learn CMS.  I was
shocked (briefly) to learn that file names might begin with
numeric digits; in fact be entirely numeric.  Why not in
OS/360 data set names?  In an era of severe storage and CPU
cycle constraints, the lexical analyzer would have been simpler
for not needing to treat the first character specially.  Would
allowing numeric data set names have introduced a syntactic
ambiguity in JCL or elsewhere?  Member names couldn't
unambiguously be numeric because of GDG levels.

Earlier in this thread, someone did some arithmetic showing
that the current data set name conventions allow more data
sets than could be stored on any current or reasonably
envisioned volume.  Therefore there's no rationale for
enlarging the name space.  Beware such arguments based on
name space cardinality -- I suspect that there would be
enough available data set names if only letters in the first
third of the alphabet were permitted, so why allow any more?
Becayse some programmers like the flexibility.  I would like
the flexibility of lower case alphabetics.

-- gil

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread Ed Finnell

PROF NOPRE?
 
 
In a message dated 12/1/2013 9:09:20 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
gerh...@valley.net writes:

Sometimes. The value that is prepended is the user id only by  default, 
as the user may set a prefix of 1-7  characters.



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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread Jon Perryman

You keep telling us about an annoying limitation which is not a defect. I agree 
that at times, it is annoying but it has also proved to be very useful. Also as 
it age's the user's of the system is changing the pattern of usage.

As z/OS ages, the typical end user doesn't know or care what a dataset is. 
(E.g. SaaS, CICS and IMS). How often do we have end users working with datasets 
or in TSO? As time goes on, exposure to DSN is more often programmer types who 
can learn these restrictions.

These limitations has forced companies to form naming conventions that are 
specific, concise and easy to understand. Everyone is working on the same page. 

These limitations allow security admin to easily secure data as needed. 

These limitations allow dasd admins to control how storage is used.

Extending DSN size would be expensive to implement. If this were truly 
impacting customers, someone would have built a method to allow extended DSN's. 

So back to the original question. What is the defect or requirement that will 
make z/OS far more useful so that its value will exceed it's cost and it's use 
will be widely adopted? Remember that customers will need to review and 
implement security changes. They will need to determine how they are affected 
by the change and QA the changes. Vendors will need to change their products. 
UNIX utilities will need to be implemented that manage uncontrolled files (e.g. 
grep and reg expressions for DSN search). DSN limitations are unlikely to 
change because it's impact outweighs it's advantage.

Jon Perryman. 





 From: Ze'ev Atlas zatl...@yahoo.com



Ze'ev appears to me to want to graft what are essentially interactive,
conversational facilities onto JCL, which is a batch facility.  This
may well be possible, but doing it will require careful thought and
much experimentation/evolutionary operation.

I already concluded that the z/OS side may be hopeless because the limitations 
of file name are too entrenched in the OS.  The Unix side (especially Linux 
that is open source) is a better candidate.  No, I do not envision batch 
oriented only features.  Once the file is committed in the traditional way 
(conversational or batch), its location would be known, so when you say in the 
shell (AND THIS IS ONLY ONE EXAMPLE):


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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread Anne Lynn Wheeler

paulgboul...@aim.com (Paul Gilmartin) writes:
With a brief exposure to MVS, I started to learn CMS. I was shocked
(briefly) to learn that file names might begin with numeric digits; in
fact be entirely numeric. Why not in OS/360 data set names? In an
era of severe storage and CPU cycle constraints, the lexical analyzer
would have been simpler for not needing to treat the first character
specially. Would allowing numeric data set names have introduced a
syntactic ambiguity in JCL or elsewhere? Member names couldn't
unambiguously be numeric because of GDG levels.

I periodically pontificated that the batch heritage systems were for the
convenience of the systems ... while people might prepare the program
... batch characteristic was that the responsible person(s) usually
wasn't around ... and it was important that many things be able to run
w/o the responsible person present.

this is a different paradigm from the online systems ... for instance
linux traces to unix to multics to ctss ... while vm370/cms trace to
cp67/cms to the same ctss ... and is much more oriented to the
convenience of people ... not to the system ... with a person much more
likely to be directly involved with running an application.

the batch system heritage would focus much more on computer resource
optimization than people resource optimization ... this was common
refrain from the 60s up through much of the 80s by POK favorite son
operating system people.

also ms/dos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS
before ms/dos there was seattle computer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Computer_Products
and before seattle computer there was cp/m
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M
and before cp/m, kildall worked on cp67/cms at npg school (gone 404
but lives on at wayback machine)
http://web.archive.org/web/20071011100440/http://www.khet.net/gmc/docs/museum/en_cpmName.html
npg reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Postgraduate_School
cp/67 reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/CMS

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread DASDBILL2

I believe John Gilmore meant that the original S/360 architects thought that 
the system should support at least five levels in a file name and that each 
level could be as long as eight bytes. 
I suspect that this  value of eight came from the maximum length of a PDS 
member name, also eight.  This suspicion is heightened by the fact that the 
system structure holding PDS member name entries, namely a PDS directory block 
on DASD with key length 8 and block size 256, had the same characteristics as 
that of the original system structure holding cataloged data set name entries, 
namely a SYSCTLG data set with key length 8 and block size 256.  The same 
channel program could be used to find a catalog block containing a given data 
set name or a PDS directory block with a given PDS member name.  And the same 
code could be used to update one of such blocks (either add a new entry into a 
block with possible cascading effects for each subsequent block in the catalog 
or directory or delete an entry from one such block) once the channel program 
had located the proper block to be updated. 
  
Bill Fairchild 
Franklin, TN 

- Original Message -

From: Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 4:05:19 PM 
Subject: Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers 

In 
cae1xxdesuckurytxfugpi7kz3fzsap2np4xcuk+1tavy93g...@mail.gmail.com, 
on 11/29/2013 
   at 02:16 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com said: 

Under OS/360 the notional, antetypical 'longest' index had the syntax 

level1.level2.level3.level4.level5 

I can't speak for release 1, but certainly in OS/360 R14 there was no 
such limit. 
  
-- 
     Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT 
     ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. 
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) 

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In 0905701904337885.wa.paulgboulderaim@listserv.ua.edu, on
11/30/2013
   at 08:52 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said:

Is the limit HLQ or TSO prefix?

TSO limits the prefix to 7; for an explicit FQDSN it accepts an
8-character HLQ.

Do catalog services enforce a limit of 7?

No, nor does TSO.

 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

2013-12-01 Thread John Gilmore

Helped perhaps by the fact that he knows what 'antetypical' means,
Bill Fairchild has made my case better than I had made it.  I did
indeed have [some of] these notions in mind.

The more recent development of this thread has pleased me.
Vociferous, historically tin-eared objections have been very largely
replaced by assertions of preference, e.g.,  for the usability of
minuscules in some classes of names where only majuscules may now
appear.

It would be all but impossible to object to these wish lists for the
relaxation of traditional formatting restrictions; and I do not; but
neither are they, finally, very important. (What I earlier today
called the psittacism involved--their too frequent, mindless
repetition in tones of moral outrage--is objectionable; but that is
another matter.)

John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In 8649425507335336.wa.zatlas1yahoo@listserv.ua.edu, on
12/01/2013
   at 12:20 AM, Ze'ev Atlas zatl...@yahoo.com said:

I have identified the defect pretty well,

You waved your hands; you never identified a problem that a central
repository would solve.

you refuse to see that definition

That would have been impossible; there was no there there. You, OTOH,
refuse to see the similarities between MVS catalogs and Unix
directories.

go to circular arguments

Nonsense.

about semantics!

You don't have the faintest idea what semantics are.

I will explain rather than define: In z/OS you are confined to 44
characters and limited to however many levels could be expressed
within that limit, but you do not need to tell the system where 
the file resides because that information is stored in the catalog.

Except when it isn't.

In Unix, you do not have those length and level limitations, but 
you need to be explicit in describing where the file is

That's nonsense.

or go through the trouble of creating symbolic links.  

Symbolic links provide an alias; they don't say where something is.
Alias resolution is as much a factor for legacy MVS catalogs and data
sets as it is for Unix paths.

Both sides are awkward, require too much memorization and each one
has a glaring defect as identified above.

The defect that you identified is imaginary.

PLEASE DO NOT GET INTO SEMANTICS

The difference between having a usable backup and not having one is
only semantics.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers

In 3197351753588016.wa.zatlas1yahoo@listserv.ua.edu, on
12/01/2013
   at 08:21 AM, Ze'ev Atlas zatl...@yahoo.com said:

I do not want people to shoot the idea down just because I referred
to only one example.

The problem is not that you have only one example, it is that you are
shooting from the hip instead of first trying to understand how things
currently work.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: z/OS is antique WAS: Aging Sysprogs = Aging Farmers