Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Kimber Gardner]

David,

 Thanks so much for this excellent explanation of threading
 Until I read it, and had an opportunity to work with your instructions, I 
really didn't like the new format of the mail app. But now everything has 
changed for me. Thanks again for the great instructions.
Sent from Kimber's iPad

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:27 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
> 
> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the same 
> as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger 
> vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger 
> horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. Double-tap on the 
> delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. 
> Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and individual 
> messages which do not belong to threads, and individual messages. In other 
> words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
> 
> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
> expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
> expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the 
> messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
> become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of 
> frustration to become used to this new system.
> 
> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and want 
> my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton  wrote:
>> 
>> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
>> longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to 
>> use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
>> thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in 
>> the thread and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre 
>> message buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message 
>> to message gone in ios10?
>> Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
>> settings that need tweaking?
>> 
>> 
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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Jonathan Cohn]

It seems to work fairly well, but I don't have much to compare to, and I stay 
in the DC area. There are certainly some dead spots, but then antenna farms 1 
mile from Langley are probably dead spots for all.  Also, in the subway tunnels 
west of DC I get 1x connectivity. Also, sometimes the LTE flag seems to be 
lying. Forth floor in L'Enfant Plaza inner office would say LTE but the speeds 
were more like 10k/s. 

I tend to spend most time on things that can be cached on the phone like 
podcasts while commuting, and in the house I use Sprit WIFi calling.

Best wishes,

Jonathan



> On Sep 17, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> What’s your opinion of Sprint today if you’re still on the network?  I was a 
> sprint fan up until they tried WIMAX and totally in my opinion screwed their 
> attempt at 4G just to be first.  Also had see a real fall off in the 3G 
> network once they got the iPhone which hammered their network.  They seem to 
> have been behind the 8 ball ever since.  I loved their network though when 
> they were by far the best EV-DO provider.
> 
> 
>> On Sep 17, 2016, at 5:36 PM, Jonathan Cohn > > wrote:
>> 
>> After leaving Sprint mobileGeo was a survival tool while wandering the 
>> streets of  Columbus, OHwhile working as a consultant. Most of you had left 
>> for iPhones by then but being qa Sprint user all the back to Sprint PCS , i 
>> had to wait until the 4s before using an iPhon  
>> 
>> I wish I still had my 1993 sprint phone to compare today's phones. dedicated
>> 
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RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

Yeah I must admit I look at my keyboard when I’m typing but then I can look at 
themonitor as well either way I can’t see anything

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of John JD Denning
Sent: Sunday, 18 September 2016 1:30 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

I do, and have always done the same thing. I used to be a photographer and 
darkroom technician for the city of San Jose Police Department. I could be 
working with film in total darkness. And I'd be staring right at what I'm 
doing. Even though I knew I was doing it I couldn't not do it.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 17, 2016, at 09:27, Donna Goodin 
mailto:doniado...@me.com>> wrote:
You know, it's a funny thing.  I have some vision, but not enough to read large 
print or anything like that.  I can see colors, identify objects, stuff like 
that.  But even though I can see little more than the  lighting and some colors 
on my phone screen, I always look at my phone when I'm using it.  It occurred 
to me once that that was kind of silly, so I tried looking away.  It felt very 
odd, and I was unable to keep it up without thinking about it.  Now you all 
have me curious about whether I can draw a straight line.  I'm guessing 
probably not, but I'm going to have to try. lol
Cheers,
Donna

On Sep 17, 2016, at 8:14 AM, Scott Granados 
mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:

David, as I understand it this is a very profound brain issue in the different 
ways we process things with out vision.  People who lose vision early have much 
more difficulty with spacial issues and understanding physical space and 
direction than folks who had vision later or still do.


On Sep 16, 2016, at 11:43 PM, David Chittenden 
mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:

It was a sighted person who pointed this out to me. When a person has vision, 
they use the vision to direct where they are touching. For those without 
vision, and who have never had vision, things are significantly different. 
First, it is much more difficult to move in a straight line. In fact, it is 
almost impossible to do so.

Second, without vision, people's movements are considerably larger. The first 
time I attempted to use a mouse was with a sighted friend. He said he would 
tell me when to stop. I moved the mouse what I believed was a small amount. 
And, the mouse pointer disappeared from the screen. After the third try, he put 
his hand over mine and used my hand to move the mouse. It took several attempts 
before I was able to feel the tiny movements. In point of fact, this is the 
largest complaint blind people have when they are first learning to explore the 
screen. I tell people to move your finger as though you haven't really moved it.

So yes, your usable vision makes absolutely all the difference.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com<mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 17/09/2016, at 14:39, Mary Otten 
mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I have been using threading in iOS for sometime, mostly because I get a 
tremendous amount of list mail, and I do tend to delete entire thread depending 
on the subject line and the list. It's so much faster to delete a list of 10 or 
11 messages that you know you don't care about because of the subject line. The 
problem I have with the new system is that once you are into messages, and 
you're moving from one to the next hitting delete, all of a sudden you go to 
delete something and it says trash messages. So you have moved into a thread 
which you didn't know about. So now you can't trash all the messages. Then you 
have to go back and see what is there. It's just not fluid in that respect. I 
guess nothings perfect.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:00 PM, Donna Goodin 
mailto:doniado...@me.com>> wrote:
Hi David,

The thing that has kept me from adopting threaded view is that even within a 
thread I'll see a message from someone who I know writes good posts, and I'll 
decide to read it.  So, while on the one hand it seems like a very efficient 
way to organize mail, I think I would miss out on some messages that I end up 
reading and appreciating.
Cheers,
Donna
On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:05 PM, David Chittenden 
mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I, on the other hand, love threaded mail, now that I have figured out how it 
works.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com<mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 17/09/2016, at 09:41, Donna Goodin 
mailto:doniado...@me.com>> wrote:
I'm liking IOS 10, as well, though I don't use threaded view in Mail.
Cheers,
Donna
On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Simon Fogarty 
mailto:si...@blinky-net.com>> wrote:

Personally I think this is probly one of the most 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

What’s your opinion of Sprint today if you’re still on the network?  I was a 
sprint fan up until they tried WIMAX and totally in my opinion screwed their 
attempt at 4G just to be first.  Also had see a real fall off in the 3G network 
once they got the iPhone which hammered their network.  They seem to have been 
behind the 8 ball ever since.  I loved their network though when they were by 
far the best EV-DO provider.


> On Sep 17, 2016, at 5:36 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> After leaving Sprint mobileGeo was a survival tool while wandering the 
> streets of  Columbus, OHwhile working as a consultant. Most of you had left 
> for iPhones by then but being qa Sprint user all the back to Sprint PCS , i 
> had to wait until the 4s before using an iPhon  
> 
> I wish I still had my 1993 sprint phone to compare today's phones. dedicated
> 
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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Jonathan Cohn]

After leaving Sprint mobileGeo was a survival tool while wandering the
streets of Columbus, OHwhile working as a consultant. Most of you had left
for iPhones by then but being qa Sprint user all the back to Sprint PCS , i
had to wait until the 4s before using an iPhon

I wish I still had my 1993 sprint phone to compare today's phones. dedicated

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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

That's so true, Kawal.  I think the first thing that gave me iPhone envy was 
seeing those old App store commercials, remember?  "There's an app for that!"  
:)
Cheers,
Donna 
> On Sep 17, 2016, at 7:28 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> But you all remember using mobile speak you couldn’t use many applications.  
> Mail was good and so was Skype I remember but if you wanted something that 
> mobile speak didn’t work with you were stuffed.  The only great thing I 
> really liked with Mobile speak was Braille output and Mobile GEO.  That was 
> truly brilliant, the first GP/S accessible application for a blind user to 
> experience.  I think all of you will agree who used Mobile Speak.  Now our 
> lives are changed for ever because of Apple’s commitment even though people 
> get frustrated at times as that is what it is, we don’t understand what is 
> changed so we will all take it out at some point.
> 
> Kawal.
>> On 16 Sep 2016, at 12:53, Donna Goodin > > wrote:
>> 
>> Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny 
>> to think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and 
>> I would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet 
>> now it kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.
>> 
>> I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
>> understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say 
>> about Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know 
>> the solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution 
>> isn't always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be intuitive, 
>> but I suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that I haven't 
>> upgraded, so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive but 
>>> let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple products.  
>>> I was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile speak days on 
>>> Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time that was highly 
>>> life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally changed my 
>>> professional life for example being able to text with my coworkers and 
>>> receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here a random 
>>> meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
>>> In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
>>> revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
>>> screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a 
>>> game.  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout 
>>> that was never available before.  So my experience probably differs from 
>>> yours only because I came from a really proprietary environment from code 
>>> factory to a more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe 
>>> mainstream isn’t the best way to express it.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten >>> > wrote:
 
 What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
 device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you 
 and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What 
 if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to 
 efficiently use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less 
 intuitive than what you are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily 
 less intuitive. We're iPhone Apple is in not coming out with the 
 documentation to let us know about this stuff when they release the final 
 OS. Fiddling around is for beta testers. When you release a final product 
 which is supposed to be accessible, you need to dot the eyes and cross the 
 tease, and let us know how it is different in terms of our particular 
 accessibility needs. That goes with the territory of universal design. I 
 know reading is out of fashion out with specially with the younger 
 generation. But a little bit of documentation goes a long way.
  A picture is not necessarily worth a few words, especially when you're 
 dealing with someone who can't see the freaking picture.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe >>> > wrote:
 
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
> namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The 
> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  
> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled u

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

+1 on mobile geo.

I remember my little Holux M1000 GPS receiver and PPC-6850 was a pretty good 
combination.

I’ve always liked that solution better than the newer off the shelf products.

> On Sep 17, 2016, at 8:28 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> But you all remember using mobile speak you couldn’t use many applications.  
> Mail was good and so was Skype I remember but if you wanted something that 
> mobile speak didn’t work with you were stuffed.  The only great thing I 
> really liked with Mobile speak was Braille output and Mobile GEO.  That was 
> truly brilliant, the first GP/S accessible application for a blind user to 
> experience.  I think all of you will agree who used Mobile Speak.  Now our 
> lives are changed for ever because of Apple’s commitment even though people 
> get frustrated at times as that is what it is, we don’t understand what is 
> changed so we will all take it out at some point.
> 
> Kawal.
>> On 16 Sep 2016, at 12:53, Donna Goodin > > wrote:
>> 
>> Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny 
>> to think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and 
>> I would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet 
>> now it kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.
>> 
>> I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
>> understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say 
>> about Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know 
>> the solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution 
>> isn't always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be intuitive, 
>> but I suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that I haven't 
>> upgraded, so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive but 
>>> let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple products.  
>>> I was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile speak days on 
>>> Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time that was highly 
>>> life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally changed my 
>>> professional life for example being able to text with my coworkers and 
>>> receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here a random 
>>> meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
>>> In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
>>> revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
>>> screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a 
>>> game.  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout 
>>> that was never available before.  So my experience probably differs from 
>>> yours only because I came from a really proprietary environment from code 
>>> factory to a more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe 
>>> mainstream isn’t the best way to express it.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten >>> > wrote:
 
 What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
 device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you 
 and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What 
 if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to 
 efficiently use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less 
 intuitive than what you are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily 
 less intuitive. We're iPhone Apple is in not coming out with the 
 documentation to let us know about this stuff when they release the final 
 OS. Fiddling around is for beta testers. When you release a final product 
 which is supposed to be accessible, you need to dot the eyes and cross the 
 tease, and let us know how it is different in terms of our particular 
 accessibility needs. That goes with the territory of universal design. I 
 know reading is out of fashion out with specially with the younger 
 generation. But a little bit of documentation goes a long way.
  A picture is not necessarily worth a few words, especially when you're 
 dealing with someone who can't see the freaking picture.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe >>> > wrote:
 
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
> namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The 
> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  
> Among the public are large numbers of blind 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

Same with hover boards last holiday season.  They got banned on planes and 
public transit as well.

Lithium batteries aren’t trivial to design.  You can put your chemistry 
together incorrectly and if you get to a certain temperature you get a thermal 
run away condition.  As I said on another list it reminds me of pulling the 
control rods to far in a reactor and losing water pressure.  You hit a certain 
temperature and there’s no return.  Hmmm Samsung needs to include a SCRAM 
option.:)


> On Sep 17, 2016, at 4:21 AM, Krister Ekstrom  
> wrote:
> 
> The whole Samsung/battery issue reminds me of the Nokia phones way back in 
> the Symbian days. I don’t remember if there were the batteries or if there 
> were special phone models involved, but every now and then you heard stories 
> of new Nokia phones catching fire.
> /Krister
> 
>> 16 sep. 2016 kl. 23:53 skrev Scott Granados :
>> 
>> So the problem turns out that Samsung was not responding to complaints from 
>> users.  Once the US government got involved more started to come out.  The 
>> two phones they mentioned by name other than the Note 7 are the S7 (didn’t 
>> say edge or regular) and the Core which I’m not familiar.  I’m with you 
>> though if it hasn’t been a problem it’s probably not going to be for you.  I 
>> charge my stuff on a metal table anyway so if it self destructed, no matter 
>> the brand it shouldn’t matter.  Anybody can have battery problems, look at 
>> the hover boards as an example or the vapor smoking battery operated 
>> puffers, they blow up and cause fire all the time from cheap chinese parts.  
>> Samsung doesn’t have the monopoly on bad batteries.  It’s just they handled 
>> the situation less than perfectly.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:22 PM, Robin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanx 4 Sharin', Didn't know that. I'm just Curious why it took SoLong for 
>>> Samsung's GalaxyS7 & GalaxyS7Edge MobilePhones to CatchFire as you have 
>>> implied based on Stories you heard from (what I beleive) are National Media 
>>> OutLets
>>> 
>>> What's Next? Will My GalaxyS6Edge catch Fire? DoubtIt I've had it for 
>>> Almost a Year&Half
>>> JustSayin'
>>> At 02:01 PM 9/16/2016, you wrote:
 and whether you have a fire proof place to run the phone.
 
 CNBC is running a piece on the S7 now and how it may be added to the 
 recall as they are catching fire it turns out as well.
 
 
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Robin  wrote:
> 
> Samsung
> NuffSaid
> 
> Although it might NOT be OnPar with Accessibility as Apple for Some, but 
> for Others it is
> 
> It depends ON YourLevel of TechSavy Skills to TroubleShoot 
> problems&issues, which may arise
> At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
>> You tell it to the universe. We are using a product that is mainstream 
>> and for the most part accessible. Please tell us what other company 
>> building mainstream products has better accessibility.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>> On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> No.
>>> Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
>>> not progress.
>>> Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
>>> This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
>>> marketing issue.
>>> Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
 adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
 If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
 jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
 Applevis.
 
 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
 but it sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
> adopted.
> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
> going
> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  
> This
> mail is

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

But you all remember using mobile speak you couldn’t use many applications.  
Mail was good and so was Skype I remember but if you wanted something that 
mobile speak didn’t work with you were stuffed.  The only great thing I really 
liked with Mobile speak was Braille output and Mobile GEO.  That was truly 
brilliant, the first GP/S accessible application for a blind user to 
experience.  I think all of you will agree who used Mobile Speak.  Now our 
lives are changed for ever because of Apple’s commitment even though people get 
frustrated at times as that is what it is, we don’t understand what is changed 
so we will all take it out at some point.

Kawal.
> On 16 Sep 2016, at 12:53, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny to 
> think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and I 
> would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet now 
> it kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.
> 
> I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
> understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say 
> about Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know 
> the solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution 
> isn't always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be intuitive, 
> but I suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that I haven't 
> upgraded, so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados > > wrote:
>> 
>> You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive but 
>> let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple products.  
>> I was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile speak days on 
>> Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time that was highly 
>> life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally changed my 
>> professional life for example being able to text with my coworkers and 
>> receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here a random 
>> meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
>>  In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
>> revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
>> screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a 
>> game.  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout that 
>> was never available before.  So my experience probably differs from yours 
>> only because I came from a really proprietary environment from code factory 
>> to a more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe mainstream 
>> isn’t the best way to express it.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
>>> device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you 
>>> and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What 
>>> if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to 
>>> efficiently use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less intuitive 
>>> than what you are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily less 
>>> intuitive. We're iPhone Apple is in not coming out with the documentation 
>>> to let us know about this stuff when they release the final OS. Fiddling 
>>> around is for beta testers. When you release a final product which is 
>>> supposed to be accessible, you need to dot the eyes and cross the tease, 
>>> and let us know how it is different in terms of our particular 
>>> accessibility needs. That goes with the territory of universal design. I 
>>> know reading is out of fashion out with specially with the younger 
>>> generation. But a little bit of documentation goes a long way.
>>>  A picture is not necessarily worth a few words, especially when you're 
>>> dealing with someone who can't see the freaking picture.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe >> > wrote:
>>> 
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
 namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
 represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
 If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to 
 be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail 
 issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make 
 simpler, to add features.
 My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 

RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[d . prater]

All they really have to do for me is fix the focusing and braille issues, and 
I’ll be fine with it.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10
Devin Prater

From: Kawal Gucukoglu

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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

What’s wrong with the changes for mail on the I phone?  Even though I have not 
got my new phone yet and after updating my 6 Plus S playing with mail, at first 
I thought it a big deal but once I got the hang of it no problem at all.  I 
actually like it.

Just what I think.

Kawal.
> On 16 Sep 2016, at 02:23, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> It’s also counter productive to stagnate.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe > > wrote:
>> 
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
>> namely OS.
>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
>> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to 
>> be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail 
>> issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make 
>> simpler, to add features.
>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
>> easily usable.
>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
>> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It 
>> is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more 
>> modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
>> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
>> something that could and did change the world for us.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>> 
>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, 
>>> single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. 
>>> Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. 
>>> Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all 
>>> messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between 
>>> threads, threads and individual messages which do not belong to threads, 
>>> and individual messages. In other words, the same as single-finger 
>>> horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>>> 
>>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must 
>>> be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical 
>>> flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all 
>>> the messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I 
>>> have become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few 
>>> hours of frustration to become used to this new system.
>>> 
>>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
>>> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and 
>>> want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>>> 
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton >> > wrote:
>>> 
 message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
 longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have 
 to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
 thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message 
 in the thread and then have to navigate between messages using the next 
 and pre message buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking 
 from message to message gone in ios10?
 Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there 
 some settings that need tweaking?
 
 
 -- 
 The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
 Visionaries list.
 
 If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
 if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
 owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
 Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
 Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Krister Ekstrom]

The whole Samsung/battery issue reminds me of the Nokia phones way back in the 
Symbian days. I don’t remember if there were the batteries or if there were 
special phone models involved, but every now and then you heard stories of new 
Nokia phones catching fire.
/Krister

> 16 sep. 2016 kl. 23:53 skrev Scott Granados :
> 
> So the problem turns out that Samsung was not responding to complaints from 
> users.  Once the US government got involved more started to come out.  The 
> two phones they mentioned by name other than the Note 7 are the S7 (didn’t 
> say edge or regular) and the Core which I’m not familiar.  I’m with you 
> though if it hasn’t been a problem it’s probably not going to be for you.  I 
> charge my stuff on a metal table anyway so if it self destructed, no matter 
> the brand it shouldn’t matter.  Anybody can have battery problems, look at 
> the hover boards as an example or the vapor smoking battery operated puffers, 
> they blow up and cause fire all the time from cheap chinese parts.  Samsung 
> doesn’t have the monopoly on bad batteries.  It’s just they handled the 
> situation less than perfectly.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:22 PM, Robin  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanx 4 Sharin', Didn't know that. I'm just Curious why it took SoLong for 
>> Samsung's GalaxyS7 & GalaxyS7Edge MobilePhones to CatchFire as you have 
>> implied based on Stories you heard from (what I beleive) are National Media 
>> OutLets
>> 
>> What's Next? Will My GalaxyS6Edge catch Fire? DoubtIt I've had it for Almost 
>> a Year&Half
>> JustSayin'
>> At 02:01 PM 9/16/2016, you wrote:
>>> and whether you have a fire proof place to run the phone.
>>> 
>>> CNBC is running a piece on the S7 now and how it may be added to the recall 
>>> as they are catching fire it turns out as well.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Robin  wrote:
 
 Samsung
 NuffSaid
 
 Although it might NOT be OnPar with Accessibility as Apple for Some, but 
 for Others it is
 
 It depends ON YourLevel of TechSavy Skills to TroubleShoot 
 problems&issues, which may arise
 At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
>  You tell it to the universe. We are using a product that is mainstream 
> and for the most part accessible. Please tell us what other company 
> building mainstream products has better accessibility.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
> On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> No.
>> Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
>> not progress.
>> Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
>> This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
>> marketing issue.
>> Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
>>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
>>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
>>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
>>> but it sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>>> 
>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
 system, namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
 iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
 adopted.
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
 If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
 to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
 mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
 to make simpler, to add features.
 My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
 release
 notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
 or easily usable.
 It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
 that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using 
 the
 iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
 to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
 way round.
 Each update adds ex

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Krister Ekstrom]

Will i’ve got a Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge. So much for having a burning desire to 
change operating systems for a while.:-)
/Krister

> 16 sep. 2016 kl. 23:22 skrev Robin :
> 
> Thanx 4 Sharin', Didn't know that. I'm just Curious why it took SoLong for 
> Samsung's GalaxyS7 & GalaxyS7Edge MobilePhones to CatchFire as you have 
> implied based on Stories you heard from (what I beleive) are National Media 
> OutLets
> 
> What's Next? Will My GalaxyS6Edge catch Fire? DoubtIt I've had it for Almost 
> a Year&Half
> JustSayin'
> At 02:01 PM 9/16/2016, you wrote:
>> and whether you have a fire proof place to run the phone.
>> 
>> CNBC is running a piece on the S7 now and how it may be added to the recall 
>> as they are catching fire it turns out as well.
>> 
>> 
>> > On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Robin  wrote:
>> >
>> > Samsung
>> > NuffSaid
>> >
>> > Although it might NOT be OnPar with Accessibility as Apple for Some, but 
>> > for Others it is
>> >
>> > It depends ON YourLevel of TechSavy Skills to TroubleShoot 
>> > problems&issues, which may arise
>> > At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
>> >>   You tell it to the universe. We are using a product that is mainstream 
>> >> and for the most part accessible. Please tell us what other company 
>> >> building mainstream products has better accessibility.
>> >>
>> >> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> >>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> >> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> >>
>> >> On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> >>> No.
>> >>> Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
>> >>> not progress.
>> >>> Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
>> >>> This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
>> >>> marketing issue.
>> >>> Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. > >>> > wrote:
>> >>>
>>   Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
>>  adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
>>  If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
>>  jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>>   Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
>>  Applevis.
>> 
>>   How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
>>  but it sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>>  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>> 
>>  On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> > It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>> > functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>> > system, namely OS.
>> > If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>> > iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>> > adopted.
>> > Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> > If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>> > to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>> > mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>> > to make simpler, to add features.
>> > My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>> > release
>> > notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>> > or easily usable.
>> > It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>> > that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using 
>> > the
>> > iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>> > to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
>> > way round.
>> > Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of 
>> > improvements.
>> > There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
>> > rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
>> > own good.
>> > I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
>> > losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden > > 
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
>> >> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>> >>
>> >> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
>> >> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
>> >> thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
>> >> view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Krister Ekstrom]

Hi,
I simply or maybe not so simply i don’t know, assigned another gesture to the 
menus, in my case one tap on the edge of the unit opens the global side menu 
and two taps on the edge of the unit opens the local talkback menu. It works 
quite well apart from the fact that when you put down your phone on the table 
the menus fall down but other than that it works ok.
I can hardly do the angle gestures at all.:-)
/Krister

> 16 sep. 2016 kl. 22:58 skrev David Chittenden :
> 
> I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
> right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good 
> at performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a 
> straight horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is a 
> right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must be 
> drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do this 
> without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 the 
> time, after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than right 
> angles, it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock 
> Android as my second phone, rather than two iPhones.
> 
> Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
> gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their interface 
> is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many advanced features 
> as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of current devices lighting 
> up people's lives.
> 
> Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
> performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 95% 
> of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with Android. 
> I believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the interface 
> must be usable.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  <mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
> 
>> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
>> 
>> Well played sir.
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty >> <mailto:si...@blinky-net.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Scott,
>>> 
>>> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
>>> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>> 
>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock >>> <mailto:michael.babcoc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>>> nothing honestly.
>>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>>> pay more.
>>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>>> A PC…
>>>> A Personal Computer …
>>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>>>> will continue paying for them.
>>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
>>>> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
>>>> phone, etc.
>>>> #choices.
>>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>>> helped me a lot.
>>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>>> Best.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Mary Otten]

David, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. There is no reason why 
they can't offer more gestures. So what if everybody can't use all of the 
jesters? It's like that now. A significant number of the target audience can't 
use the existing gestures. So make more. If your device can't deal with it, 
tough luck. The fact that folks still put out devices running version of the 
operating system that is several years old means that Google really doesn't 
give much of a damn about the whole process. But they are cheating people who 
need the access by using this low and device thing as an excuse for why they 
can't improve accessibility.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:54 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> Did you ever have vision? Are you low vision now? I know how to change the 
> command assignments. The thing is, more commands than available gestures 
> until Google opens up more fingers.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 17/09/2016, at 13:38, Christopher-Mark Gilland  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> You know you can remap that gesture to something easier in the Talkback 
>> settings, if you are having problems with those multippart swipes.  I can 
>> get it 100% of the time, but, yeah... that's just me.
>>  
>> If you'd like instructions on how to change this, write me off list, and 
>> I'll help you out.  I'm not only very good with iOS, but I'm incredibly 
>> proficient as well with Android, and atually teach it as part of my 
>> profession.
>>  
>> clgillan...@gmail.com
>> ---
>> Christopher Gilland
>> JAWS Certified, 2016.
>> Training Instructor.
>>  
>> i...@gillandmarketing.com
>> Phone: (704) 256-8010.
>> - Original Message -
>> From: David Chittenden
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 4:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>> 
>> I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
>> right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good 
>> at performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a 
>> straight horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is 
>> a right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must 
>> be drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do 
>> this without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 
>> the time, after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than 
>> right angles, it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock 
>> Android as my second phone, rather than two iPhones.
>> 
>> Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
>> gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their 
>> interface is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many 
>> advanced features as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of 
>> current devices lighting up people's lives.
>> 
>> Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
>> performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 
>> 95% of the time, I will definitely listen, practice,and work more with 
>> Android. I believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the 
>> interface must be usable.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
>>> 
>>> Well played sir.
>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Scott,
>>>> 
>>>> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
>>>> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>>>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>>> 
>>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>>> 
>

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Oh, I agree there, but at least you can do it, and yes, I've always had some 
usable vision.  I don't see really where that matters, but undoubtedly, it 
does, as you're the 3rd or 4th person who's never had any, who told me they had 
issues.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

i...@gillandmarketing.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
  - Original Message - 
  From: David Chittenden 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 9:54 PM
  Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes


  Did you ever have vision? Are you low vision now? I know how to change the 
command assignments. The thing is, more commands than available gestures until 
Google opens up more fingers.

  David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
  Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
  Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
  Sent from my iPhone

  On 17/09/2016, at 13:38, Christopher-Mark Gilland  
wrote:


You know you can remap that gesture to something easier in the Talkback 
settings, if you are having problems with those multippart swipes.  I can get 
it 100% of the time, but, yeah... that's just me.

If you'd like instructions on how to change this, write me off list, and 
I'll help you out.  I'm not only very good with iOS, but I'm incredibly 
proficient as well with Android, and atually teach it as part of my profession.

clgillan...@gmail.com
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

i...@gillandmarketing.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
  - Original Message - 
  From: David Chittenden 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 4:58 PM
  Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes


  I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. 
The right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very 
good at performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a 
straight horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is a 
right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must be 
drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do this 
without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 the time, 
after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than right angles, 
it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock Android as my 
second phone, rather than two iPhones.


  Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their interface 
is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many advanced features 
as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of current devices lighting up 
people's lives.


  Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 95% 
of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with Android. I 
believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the interface must 
be usable.

  David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA 
  Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
  Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
  Sent from my iPhone

  On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  wrote:


Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)

Well played sir.


  On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  
wrote:



  Scott,



  Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now 
done with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!





  -Original Message-

  From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados

  Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM

  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com

  Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes



  Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
prostate exam from Captain Hook.







On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
 wrote:



Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.

All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there 
updates, means nothing honestly.

Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the 
everyone business and the people who do like there products and services 
obviously pay more.

What is a Mac in most cases?

A PC…

A Personal Computer …

But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there 
changes will continue paying for them.

I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
doing 

there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, 
back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 
to

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[David Chittenden]

Did you ever have vision? Are you low vision now? I know how to change the 
command assignments. The thing is, more commands than available gestures until 
Google opens up more fingers.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 17/09/2016, at 13:38, Christopher-Mark Gilland  
> wrote:
> 
> You know you can remap that gesture to something easier in the Talkback 
> settings, if you are having problems with those multippart swipes.  I can get 
> it 100% of the time, but, yeah... that's just me.
>  
> If you'd like instructions on how to change this, write me off list, and I'll 
> help you out.  I'm not only very good with iOS, but I'm incredibly proficient 
> as well with Android, and atually teach it as part of my profession.
>  
> clgillan...@gmail.com
> ---
> Christopher Gilland
> JAWS Certified, 2016.
> Training Instructor.
>  
> i...@gillandmarketing.com
> Phone: (704) 256-8010.
> - Original Message -
> From: David Chittenden
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 4:58 PM
> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
> 
> I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
> right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good 
> at performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a 
> straight horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is a 
> right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must be 
> drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do this 
> without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 the 
> time, after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than right 
> angles, it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock 
> Android as my second phone, rather than two iPhones.
> 
> Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
> gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their interface 
> is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many advanced features 
> as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of current devices lighting 
> up people's lives.
> 
> Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
> performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 95% 
> of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with Android. 
> I believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the interface 
> must be usable.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
>> 
>> Well played sir.
>> 
>>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Scott,
>>> 
>>> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
>>> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>> 
>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>>> nothing honestly.
>>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>>> pay more.
>>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>>> A PC…
>>>> A Personal Computer …
>>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>>>> will continue paying for them.
>>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
>>>> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
>>>> phone, etc.
>>>> #choices.
>>&

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

You know you can remap that gesture to something easier in the Talkback 
settings, if you are having problems with those multippart swipes.  I can get 
it 100% of the time, but, yeah... that's just me.

If you'd like instructions on how to change this, write me off list, and I'll 
help you out.  I'm not only very good with iOS, but I'm incredibly proficient 
as well with Android, and atually teach it as part of my profession.

clgillan...@gmail.com
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

i...@gillandmarketing.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
  - Original Message - 
  From: David Chittenden 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 4:58 PM
  Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes


  I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good at 
performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a straight 
horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is a 
right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must be 
drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do this 
without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 the time, 
after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than right angles, 
it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock Android as my 
second phone, rather than two iPhones.


  Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their interface 
is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many advanced features 
as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of current devices lighting up 
people's lives.


  Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 95% 
of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with Android. I 
believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the interface must 
be usable.

  David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
  Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
  Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
  Sent from my iPhone

  On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  wrote:


Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)

Well played sir.


  On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:



  Scott,



  Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now 
done with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!





  -Original Message-

  From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados

  Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM

  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com

  Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes



  Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
prostate exam from Captain Hook.







On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
 wrote:



Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.

All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
means nothing honestly.

Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the 
everyone business and the people who do like there products and services 
obviously pay more.

What is a Mac in most cases?

A PC…

A Personal Computer …

But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
will continue paying for them.

I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 

there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to 
a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
phone, etc.

#choices.

And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He didn’t 
know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me a 
lot.

Thanks for reading my rant.

Best.



  On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:



  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that 
is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.



  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
Applevis.



  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system 
but it sure outruns Windows.



  From E.T.'s Keyboard...

  Are We Alone in the Universe?

  ancient.ali...@icloud.com



  On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

It seems counterproduc

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[David Chittenden]

I, on the other hand, love threaded mail, now that I have figured out how it 
works.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 17/09/2016, at 09:41, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> I'm liking IOS 10, as well, though I don't use threaded view in Mail.
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>> 
>> Personally I think this is probly one of the most stable IOS updates I have 
>> seen.
>>  
>> I haven’t found any of the issues with mail others are reporting.
>>  
>> Although I wasn’t able to move a couple of emails from one in box to another 
>> location in a second mail account, but hell it’s not a big issue,
>> Reporting the issues to apple goes along way to getting things corrected 
>> quickly and they do appreciate it.
>>  
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 11:35 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>  
>> You know what would be nice too, is if we were less anal about the public 
>> beta and discussed these major changes openly so people aren’t surprised.  
>> The Cheree’s of the world could elect not to update for example until a 
>> satisfactory alternative presents itself or not update at all putting the 
>> control in their hands instead of jumping in with out all the facts to make 
>> an informed decision.
>>  
>> It would also be nice if Apple could unbundle the security updates from the 
>> OS updates so again folks not wanting to update could apply security patches 
>> and stay safe with out introducing new features.  That might undo some of 
>> the apple advantage though but I’m definitely not against putting more 
>> choice in to the hands of the end user.
>>  
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:13 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>  
>>  I think where Apple could do better would be in releasing some 
>> documentation regarding how voiceover users are supposed to deal with things 
>> that have substantially changed. I don't agree that things have to stay the 
>> same. And David's discussion of how to deal with the email was very good. I 
>> think that Apple should do that. I also think that Apple should update their 
>> documentation on commands, Bluetooth, braille display etc. One of the things 
>> about making a commitment to accessibility is to realize that for people who 
>> can. See, dealing with the changes to the interface may be a lot easier then 
>> for people who can't. That's why they need to employ people who get that, 
>> since your average designer doesn't. There are a lot of things that become 
>> immediately clear decided people because they can take in the entire 
>> interface at once and understand how to deal with it. That's not so easy if 
>> you can't do that.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:47 PM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
>> 
>> That's nonsense.
>> I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
>> Apple claims universal design.
>> When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't about 
>> somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
>> Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have quoted, or 
>> the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles and weaving 
>> baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
>> Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not change for 
>> its own sake.
>>  
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>> nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>> pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer … 
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>> continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
>> updates, and just had to say, so what…
>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
>> phone?), wi

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[David Chittenden]

Scott,

The angle gestures are still there. We upgrade whenever a new release comes out.

The nice thing about stock Android is, all of the gestures commands are 
customisable. In other words, they can be reassigned. Unfortunately, there are 
no gestures of more than two fingers. According to Jonathan Mosen, Google 
claims this is to support older devices that only support two finger touch 
input.

So, one can have basic, or higher end commands on the easier gestures.

As I already stated, when Google replaces the angle gestures with something a 
blind person can perform easily (such as an arc), I will get a stock Android 
smartphone and retire my older iPhone from my business line: There are things 
Android does which I like, and it is more customisable. Of course, I will keep 
my confidential paperwork on my Apple devices. Google is just too unsecure.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 17/09/2016, at 09:33, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> David, isn’t the new version of Talkback 5.x able to have redefinable 
> gestures?
> 
> I’m good at gestures too unfortunately it’s usually the one involving the 
> middle finger.
> 
> ;)
> 
> I thought I read though the right angles are redefinable.  I hated them as 
> well, never got the hang.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:58 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
>> 
>> I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
>> right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good 
>> at performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a 
>> straight horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is 
>> a right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must 
>> be drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do 
>> this without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 
>> the time, after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than 
>> right angles, it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock 
>> Android as my second phone, rather than two iPhones.
>> 
>> Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
>> gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their 
>> interface is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many 
>> advanced features as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of 
>> current devices lighting up people's lives.
>> 
>> Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
>> performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 
>> 95% of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with 
>> Android. I believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the 
>> interface must be usable.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
>>> 
>>> Well played sir.
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Scott,
>>>> 
>>>> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
>>>> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>>>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>>> 
>>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
>>>>> means nothing honestly.
>>>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>>>> pay more.
>>>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>>>> A PC…
>>>>> A Personal Computer …
>>>>> But 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

So the problem turns out that Samsung was not responding to complaints from 
users.  Once the US government got involved more started to come out.  The two 
phones they mentioned by name other than the Note 7 are the S7 (didn’t say edge 
or regular) and the Core which I’m not familiar.  I’m with you though if it 
hasn’t been a problem it’s probably not going to be for you.  I charge my stuff 
on a metal table anyway so if it self destructed, no matter the brand it 
shouldn’t matter.  Anybody can have battery problems, look at the hover boards 
as an example or the vapor smoking battery operated puffers, they blow up and 
cause fire all the time from cheap chinese parts.  Samsung doesn’t have the 
monopoly on bad batteries.  It’s just they handled the situation less than 
perfectly.



> On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:22 PM, Robin  wrote:
> 
> Thanx 4 Sharin', Didn't know that. I'm just Curious why it took SoLong for 
> Samsung's GalaxyS7 & GalaxyS7Edge MobilePhones to CatchFire as you have 
> implied based on Stories you heard from (what I beleive) are National Media 
> OutLets
> 
> What's Next? Will My GalaxyS6Edge catch Fire? DoubtIt I've had it for Almost 
> a Year&Half
> JustSayin'
> At 02:01 PM 9/16/2016, you wrote:
>> and whether you have a fire proof place to run the phone.
>> 
>> CNBC is running a piece on the S7 now and how it may be added to the recall 
>> as they are catching fire it turns out as well.
>> 
>> 
>> > On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Robin  wrote:
>> >
>> > Samsung
>> > NuffSaid
>> >
>> > Although it might NOT be OnPar with Accessibility as Apple for Some, but 
>> > for Others it is
>> >
>> > It depends ON YourLevel of TechSavy Skills to TroubleShoot 
>> > problems&issues, which may arise
>> > At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
>> >>   You tell it to the universe. We are using a product that is mainstream 
>> >> and for the most part accessible. Please tell us what other company 
>> >> building mainstream products has better accessibility.
>> >>
>> >> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> >>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> >> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> >>
>> >> On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> >>> No.
>> >>> Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
>> >>> not progress.
>> >>> Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
>> >>> This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
>> >>> marketing issue.
>> >>> Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. > >>> > wrote:
>> >>>
>>   Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
>>  adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
>>  If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
>>  jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>>   Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
>>  Applevis.
>> 
>>   How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
>>  but it sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>>  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>> 
>>  On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> > It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>> > functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>> > system, namely OS.
>> > If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>> > iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>> > adopted.
>> > Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> > If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>> > to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>> > mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>> > to make simpler, to add features.
>> > My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>> > release
>> > notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>> > or easily usable.
>> > It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>> > that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using 
>> > the
>> > iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>> > to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
>> > way round.
>> > Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of 
>> > improvements.
>> > There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
>> > rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
>> > own good.
>> > I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
>> > losing something that could and did change the world for

RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

Yeah I still can't get my head around the accessibility like the apple devices,

 I'ts just the transistion 
I've tried the galaxy s5 s6 and s7 edge, but recently tried using a Vodafone 
labelled device which was running android OS5 nice device but weird interface 
couldn't figure out what they had done to it but still for 50 Kiwi dollars 
people can't really complain.
-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 11:46 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

You know the Samsung devices have a custom interface that is much more iPhone 
like.  That makes it easier for some to transition over.  I have my issues with 
Samsung but others may have a better time of it and that’s one similarity that 
may make it easier and worth while.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:10 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mary,
> 
> I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to 
> use than os 5
> 
> Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but then 
> that's just because it's my device of preference.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
> 
> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>> nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>> pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer …
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>>> continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
>>> doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back 
>>> to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 
>>> touch phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>> helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>>>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>>>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>>>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>>> 
>>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>>> Applevis.
>>>> 
>>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>>> 
>>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>>> 
>>>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>>>> system, namely OS.
>>>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>>>>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>>>>> adopted.
>>>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>>>>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>>>>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed,

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

I'm liking IOS 10, as well, though I don't use threaded view in Mail.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Personally I think this is probly one of the most stable IOS updates I have 
> seen.
>  
> I haven’t found any of the issues with mail others are reporting.
>  
> Although I wasn’t able to move a couple of emails from one in box to another 
> location in a second mail account, but hell it’s not a big issue,
> Reporting the issues to apple goes along way to getting things corrected 
> quickly and they do appreciate it.
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 11:35 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>  
> You know what would be nice too, is if we were less anal about the public 
> beta and discussed these major changes openly so people aren’t surprised.  
> The Cheree’s of the world could elect not to update for example until a 
> satisfactory alternative presents itself or not update at all putting the 
> control in their hands instead of jumping in with out all the facts to make 
> an informed decision.
>  
> It would also be nice if Apple could unbundle the security updates from the 
> OS updates so again folks not wanting to update could apply security patches 
> and stay safe with out introducing new features.  That might undo some of the 
> apple advantage though but I’m definitely not against putting more choice in 
> to the hands of the end user.
>  
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:13 PM, Mary Otten  <mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  
>  I think where Apple could do better would be in releasing some documentation 
> regarding how voiceover users are supposed to deal with things that have 
> substantially changed. I don't agree that things have to stay the same. And 
> David's discussion of how to deal with the email was very good. I think that 
> Apple should do that. I also think that Apple should update their 
> documentation on commands, Bluetooth, braille display etc. One of the things 
> about making a commitment to accessibility is to realize that for people who 
> can. See, dealing with the changes to the interface may be a lot easier then 
> for people who can't. That's why they need to employ people who get that, 
> since your average designer doesn't. There are a lot of things that become 
> immediately clear decided people because they can take in the entire 
> interface at once and understand how to deal with it. That's not so easy if 
> you can't do that.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:47 PM, Cheree Heppe  <mailto:che...@dogsc4me.com>> wrote:
> 
> That's nonsense.
> I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
> Apple claims universal design.
> When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't about 
> somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
> Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have quoted, or 
> the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles and weaving 
> baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
> Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not change for 
> its own sake.
>  
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock  <mailto:michael.babcoc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
> nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously pay 
> more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer … 
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
> continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
> updates, and just had to say, so what…
> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He didn’t 
> know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me 
> a lot.
> Thanks for reading my ra

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Mary Otten]

I'm not David, but the answer is yes and no. Yes, you can redefine talkback 
gestures. And depending on how many jesters you need, you might be able to  
unassign all of the angle ones. But in practice, at least in my opinion, there 
aren't enough non-angle jesters to do all the stuff I want to do in talkback 
directly if that makes any sense. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:33 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> David, isn’t the new version of Talkback 5.x able to have redefinable 
> gestures?
> 
> I’m good at gestures too unfortunately it’s usually the one involving the 
> middle finger.
> 
> ;)
> 
> I thought I read though the right angles are redefinable.  I hated them as 
> well, never got the hang.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:58 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
>> 
>> I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
>> right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good 
>> at performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a 
>> straight horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is 
>> a right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must 
>> be drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do 
>> this without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 
>> the time, after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than 
>> right angles, it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock 
>> Android as my second phone, rather than two iPhones.
>> 
>> Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
>> gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their 
>> interface is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many 
>> advanced features as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of 
>> current devices lighting up people's lives.
>> 
>> Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
>> performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 
>> 95% of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with 
>> Android. I believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the 
>> interface must be usable.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
>>> 
>>> Well played sir.
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Scott,
>>>> 
>>>> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
>>>> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>>>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>>> 
>>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
>>>>> means nothing honestly.
>>>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>>>> pay more.
>>>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>>>> A PC…
>>>>> A Personal Computer …
>>>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>>>>> will continue paying for them.
>>>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
>>>>> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
>>>>> phone, etc.
>>>>> #choices.
>>>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>>>> 

RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

Personally I think this is probly one of the most stable IOS updates I have 
seen.

I haven’t found any of the issues with mail others are reporting.

Although I wasn’t able to move a couple of emails from one in box to another 
location in a second mail account, but hell it’s not a big issue,
Reporting the issues to apple goes along way to getting things corrected 
quickly and they do appreciate it.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 11:35 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

You know what would be nice too, is if we were less anal about the public beta 
and discussed these major changes openly so people aren’t surprised.  The 
Cheree’s of the world could elect not to update for example until a 
satisfactory alternative presents itself or not update at all putting the 
control in their hands instead of jumping in with out all the facts to make an 
informed decision.

It would also be nice if Apple could unbundle the security updates from the OS 
updates so again folks not wanting to update could apply security patches and 
stay safe with out introducing new features.  That might undo some of the apple 
advantage though but I’m definitely not against putting more choice in to the 
hands of the end user.

On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:13 PM, Mary Otten 
mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:

 I think where Apple could do better would be in releasing some documentation 
regarding how voiceover users are supposed to deal with things that have 
substantially changed. I don't agree that things have to stay the same. And 
David's discussion of how to deal with the email was very good. I think that 
Apple should do that. I also think that Apple should update their documentation 
on commands, Bluetooth, braille display etc. One of the things about making a 
commitment to accessibility is to realize that for people who can. See, dealing 
with the changes to the interface may be a lot easier then for people who 
can't. That's why they need to employ people who get that, since your average 
designer doesn't. There are a lot of things that become immediately clear 
decided people because they can take in the entire interface at once and 
understand how to deal with it. That's not so easy if you can't do that.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:47 PM, Cheree Heppe 
mailto:che...@dogsc4me.com>> wrote:
That's nonsense.
I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
Apple claims universal design.
When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't about 
somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have quoted, or 
the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles and weaving 
baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not change for its 
own sake.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock 
mailto:michael.babcoc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
nothing honestly.
Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
business and the people who do like there products and services obviously pay 
more.
What is a Mac in most cases?
A PC…
A Personal Computer …
But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
continue paying for them.
I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
updates, and just had to say, so what…
Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
#choices.
And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He didn’t 
know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me a 
lot.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Best.


On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. 
mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com>> wrote:

 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting to 
change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is what you 
deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, inevitable 
there as well. the cycle repeats itself.

 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called Applevis.

 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it sure 
outruns Windows.

>From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com<mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com>

On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
It seems counterproductive to force an up-

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

You know, after our exchange this morning, I was wondering about Carlos, too.  
Last I heard, he graduated and got a job at a bank, I think.  Has anyone heard 
from him?
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> If memory serves that’s where we met I think on that mobile speak list.  
> Kawal as well, I think Mark was over there with us, Donna and what ever 
> happened to Carlos palomino?  I’m trying to remember I think Ricardo goes 
> that far back as well, I’m sure I’m forgetting a bunch.  I’ve seen a lot of 
> old names on this list.  More so than on the Android side.  Oh and how could 
> I forget George? :)
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:42 PM, David Chittenden > > wrote:
>> 
>> I also came from Code Factory's Mobile Pocket PC. Save for the onscreen 
>> keyboard, that package turned the touch-screen into four buttons. I 
>> definitely prefer the modern way of doing touch-screens for the blind.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On 16/09/2016, at 23:44, Donna Goodin > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
>>> your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back 
>>> in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in 
>>> just about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides 
>>> since then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone 
>>> else do the comparison testing. :)
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
 On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados >>> > wrote:
 
 I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another 
 vendor.  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a 
 comparison so I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out 
 I’ll put down the 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This 
 way it’s a full dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and 
 forth between devices and take my own advice to commit.:)
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  > wrote:
> 
> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados > > wrote:
>> 
>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>>> mailto:michael.babcoc...@gmail.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
>>> means nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the 
>>> everyone business and the people who do like there products and 
>>> services obviously pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer … 
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>>> will continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
>>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
>>> that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
>>> released helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. >>> > wrote:
 
 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
 adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
 If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
 jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
 Applevis.
 
 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
 it sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
 
> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older,

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

David, isn’t the new version of Talkback 5.x able to have redefinable gestures?

I’m good at gestures too unfortunately it’s usually the one involving the 
middle finger.

;)

I thought I read though the right angles are redefinable.  I hated them as 
well, never got the hang.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:58 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
> right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good 
> at performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a 
> straight horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is a 
> right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must be 
> drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do this 
> without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 the 
> time, after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than right 
> angles, it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock 
> Android as my second phone, rather than two iPhones.
> 
> Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
> gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their interface 
> is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many advanced features 
> as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of current devices lighting 
> up people's lives.
> 
> Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
> performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 95% 
> of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with Android. 
> I believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the interface 
> must be usable.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  <mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
> 
>> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
>> 
>> Well played sir.
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty >> <mailto:si...@blinky-net.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Scott,
>>> 
>>> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
>>> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>> 
>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock >>> <mailto:michael.babcoc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>>> nothing honestly.
>>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>>> pay more.
>>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>>> A PC…
>>>> A Personal Computer …
>>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>>>> will continue paying for them.
>>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
>>>> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
>>>> phone, etc.
>>>> #choices.
>>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>>> helped me a lot.
>>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>>> Best.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. >>>> <mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Change is coun

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

If memory serves that’s where we met I think on that mobile speak list.  Kawal 
as well, I think Mark was over there with us, Donna and what ever happened to 
Carlos palomino?  I’m trying to remember I think Ricardo goes that far back as 
well, I’m sure I’m forgetting a bunch.  I’ve seen a lot of old names on this 
list.  More so than on the Android side.  Oh and how could I forget George? :)



> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:42 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> I also came from Code Factory's Mobile Pocket PC. Save for the onscreen 
> keyboard, that package turned the touch-screen into four buttons. I 
> definitely prefer the modern way of doing touch-screens for the blind.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 16/09/2016, at 23:44, Donna Goodin  > wrote:
> 
>> Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
>> your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back 
>> in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in 
>> just about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides 
>> since then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone 
>> else do the comparison testing. :)
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another 
>>> vendor.  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a 
>>> comparison so I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll 
>>> put down the 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way 
>>> it’s a full dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and forth 
>>> between devices and take my own advice to commit.:)
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten >>> > wrote:
 
 OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  > wrote:
> 
> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>> mailto:michael.babcoc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
>> means nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the 
>> everyone business and the people who do like there products and services 
>> obviously pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer … 
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>> will continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
>> that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
>> released helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
>>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
>>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
>>> it sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>>> 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
 system, namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
 iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
 adopted.
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
 If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
 to be forced int

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Robin]

Thanx 4 Sharin', Didn't know that. I'm just 
Curious why it took SoLong for Samsung's GalaxyS7 
& GalaxyS7Edge MobilePhones to CatchFire as you 
have implied based on Stories you heard from 
(what I beleive) are National Media OutLets


What's Next? Will My GalaxyS6Edge catch Fire? 
DoubtIt I've had it for Almost a Year&Half

JustSayin'
At 02:01 PM 9/16/2016, you wrote:

and whether you have a fire proof place to run the phone.

CNBC is running a piece on the S7 now and how it 
may be added to the recall as they are catching fire it turns out as well.



> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Robin  wrote:
>
> Samsung
> NuffSaid
>
> Although it might NOT be OnPar with 
Accessibility as Apple for Some, but for Others it is

>
> It depends ON YourLevel of TechSavy Skills to 
TroubleShoot problems&issues, which may arise

> At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
>>   You tell it to the universe. We are using 
a product that is mainstream and for the most 
part accessible. Please tell us what other 
company building mainstream products has better accessibility.

>>
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>
>> On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> No.
>>> Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
>>> not progress.
>>> Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
>>> This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
>>> marketing issue.
>>> Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. >> > wrote:
>>>
  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
 adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
 If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
 jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.

  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
 Applevis.

  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
 but it sure outruns Windows.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com 

 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
> iOS represents a gateway experience that 
the public has readily adopted.

> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
> to make simpler, to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited 
an opposite opinion.  No release

> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
> or easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard 
usage system and those using the

> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
> way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to 
iOS in the name of improvements.

> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
> own good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  
> > wrote:
>
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
>> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
>> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
>> thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
>> view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
>> messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
>> message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
>> deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
>> moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
>> belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
>> as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>>
>> If one wishes to delete only s

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

and whether you have a fire proof place to run the phone.

CNBC is running a piece on the S7 now and how it may be added to the recall as 
they are catching fire it turns out as well.


> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Robin  wrote:
> 
> Samsung
> NuffSaid
> 
> Although it might NOT be OnPar with Accessibility as Apple for Some, but for 
> Others it is
> 
> It depends ON YourLevel of TechSavy Skills to TroubleShoot problems&issues, 
> which may arise
> At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
>>   You tell it to the universe. We are using a product that is mainstream and 
>> for the most part accessible. Please tell us what other company building 
>> mainstream products has better accessibility.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>> On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> No.
>>> Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
>>> not progress.
>>> Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
>>> This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
>>> marketing issue.
>>> Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. >> > wrote:
>>> 
  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
 adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
 If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
 jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
 Applevis.
 
  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
 but it sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
> to make simpler, to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
> or easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
> way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
> own good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  
> > wrote:
> 
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
>> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>> 
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
>> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
>> thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
>> view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
>> messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
>> message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
>> deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
>> moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
>> belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
>> as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>> 
>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
>> must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
>> vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
>> unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
>> non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to this new system, I
>> really like it. It

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

No they wouldn’t move as fast because they still have to push the update 
through the manufacturer.  That adds delay, they could have never fixed the 
phone this quickly and I had this happen to me on my S5.  A bad T-Mobile update 
caused a memory leak, took to long to fix I ended up shooting the phone before 
the update was made available because it kept rebooting during calls.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Robin  wrote:
> 
> That's NOT Fair
> You're comparin' Apples&Oranges
> 
> A fairer comparison would be:
> TMobile havin' an Issue/Problem with AnAndroidDevice would TMobile Moved as 
> Quick with ThisIssue&ThisProblem of Service, I presume So
> JustSayin'
> 
> It's not AnApple iOS issue for iOSUsers with Other MobileCariers 
> It's simply confined to TMobile 
> JustSayin'
> At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
>> Cheree, you’re not going anywhere.  Even if you don’t like the change in 
>> mail.  If you think that’s tricky try using Android.  Android is a joke of 
>> an operating system in comparison.  If for example you want to use the web 
>> or expect stability, expect to get your security patched and updates and 
>> even expect  consistent experience then you’ll just hate android.
>> 
>> Here’s a practical example.  T-Mobile had a problem in IOS 10, it took 
>> them about 48 hours to push an update to all the phones and correct their 
>> problem.  If this was the google world the update would be pushed to phones 
>> based on each individual vendor’s timeline, which in the case of Samsung 
>> for example may have taken months.  Samsung has been as much as a year out 
>> of date in releasing updates of the OS.
>> 
>> Don’t even get me started on windows and that after thought of an screen 
>> reader situation.
>> 
>> I had such a bad experience with a Galaxy phone i actually took it to the 
>> firing range and put a 308 round through the phone.  It rebooted one to many 
>> times during a phone interview to live.;)
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
>>> namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>>> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
>>> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to 
>>> be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail 
>>> issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make 
>>> simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
>>> easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
>>> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  
>>> It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the 
>>> more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
>>> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
>>> something that could and did change the world for us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
 much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
 
 When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
 same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
 activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, 
 single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. 
 Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. 
 Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all 
 messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between 
 threads, threads and individual messages which do not belong to threads, 
 and individual messages. In other words, the same as single-finger 
 horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
 
 If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must 
 be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical 
 flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all 
 the messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that 
 I have become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[David Chittenden]

I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good at 
performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a straight 
horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is a 
right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must be 
drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do this 
without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 the time, 
after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than right angles, 
it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock Android as my 
second phone, rather than two iPhones.

Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their interface 
is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many advanced features 
as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of current devices lighting up 
people's lives.

Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 95% 
of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with Android. I 
believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the interface must 
be usable.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
> 
> Well played sir.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>> 
>> Scott,
>> 
>> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
>> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>> 
>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>> nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>> pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer …
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>>> continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
>>> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
>>> phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>> helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>>>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>>>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>>>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>>> 
>>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>>> Applevis.
>>>> 
>>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>>> 
>>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>>> 
>>>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>>>> system, namely OS.
>>>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more user

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[David Chittenden]

I also came from Code Factory's Mobile Pocket PC. Save for the onscreen 
keyboard, that package turned the touch-screen into four buttons. I definitely 
prefer the modern way of doing touch-screens for the blind.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 16/09/2016, at 23:44, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
> your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back 
> in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in just 
> about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides since 
> then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone else do 
> the comparison testing. :)
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another vendor. 
>>  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a comparison so 
>> I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll put down the 
>> 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way it’s a full 
>> dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and forth between 
>> devices and take my own advice to commit.:)
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
 
 Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
 prostate exam from Captain Hook.
 
 
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>  wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
> means nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
> pay more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer … 
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
> will continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
> that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
> released helped me a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>> Applevis.
>> 
>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
>> it sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>>> system, namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>>> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>>> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>>> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>>> to make simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>>> or easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
>>> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>>> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
>>> way round.
>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[E.T.]

Robin,
   Is your space bar worn out? The lack of spaces between words makes 
for difficult reading.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/16/2016 11:48 AM, Robin wrote:

I suggest you SendFeedBack ConstructiveFeedBack&ConstructiveCriticism
concernin' YourIssues&YourPorblems AsItPertainsTo Apple's iOS10
At 06:47 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:

That's nonsense.
I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
Apple claims universal design.
When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't
about somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding
universal design.
Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have
quoted, or the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal
scuttles and weaving baskets to the tune of you are a minority and
don't count.
Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not
change for its own sake.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock
mailto:michael.babcoc...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there
updates, means nothing honestly.
Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the
everyone business and the people who do like there products and
services obviously pay more.
What is a Mac in most cases?
A PC…
A Personal Computer …
But apple markkets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there
changes will continue paying for them.
I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is
doing there updates, and just had to say, so what…
Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make
that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
#choices.
And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that
i couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the
messages. He didn’t know how to get this working, however the
podcast AppleVis released helped me a lot.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Best.


On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com>> wrote:

 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is
inevitable. If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution
is, of course, jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle
repeats itself.

 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource
called Applevis.

 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
but it sure outruns Windows.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com 

On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily
adopted.
Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No
release
notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those
using the
iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of
improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
own good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
losing something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Robin]

I suggest you SendFeedBack 
ConstructiveFeedBack&ConstructiveCriticism 
concernin' YourIssues&YourPorblems AsItPertainsTo Apple's iOS10

At 06:47 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:

That's nonsense.
I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
Apple claims universal design.
When design changes or functional alterations 
lose the way, that isn't about somebody pays 
more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and 
some others have quoted, or the disabled and 
blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles 
and weaving baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace 
universal design, not change for its own sake.



Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock 
<michael.babcoc...@gmail.com> wrote:



Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
All this talking about leaving because you 
don’t like there updates, means nothing honestly.
Apple is doing there marketing the right way; 
they aren’t in the everyone business and the 
people who do like there products and services obviously pay more.

What is a Mac in most cases?
A PC…
A Personal Computer …
But apple markkets a Mac as a Mac and the 
people who want there changes will continue paying for them.
I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t 
like the way apple is doing there updates, and just had to say, so what…
Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side 
note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.

#choices.
And regarding the new mail problem, yes i 
complained to a friend that i couldn’t use 
preview in my mail and listen to part of the 
messages. He didn’t know how to get this 
working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me a lot.

Thanks for reading my rant.
Best.

On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. 
<ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:


 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some 
who have a hard time adapting to change. But, 
at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
If that is what you deem as force, well, the 
solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.


 Release notes of sorts can be found at the 
wonderful resource called Applevis.


 How long have you been using OS X? I am 
still learning this system but it sure outruns Windows.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
rehab, insist on speaking for us, the 
user/consumer blind, for our own good.

I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
losing something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden 
<dchitten...@gmail.com

> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
as single-finger horrizontal flic

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Robin]

Samsung
NuffSaid

Although it might NOT be OnPar with Accessibility 
as Apple for Some, but for Others it is


It depends ON YourLevel of TechSavy Skills to 
TroubleShoot problems&issues, which may arise

At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
   You tell it to the universe. We are using a 
product that is mainstream and for the most 
part accessible. Please tell us what other 
company building mainstream products has better accessibility.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

No.
Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
not progress.
Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
marketing issue.
Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com>> wrote:


  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.

  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
Applevis.

  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
but it sure outruns Windows.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com 

On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
own good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
losing something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.

If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to this new system, I
really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become used
to this new system.

I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps
for iOS and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love
touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 

Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton mailto:philh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:


message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can
no longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead
I have to use the “pre and next† message buttons. Also

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Robin]

That's NOT Fair
You're comparin' Apples&Oranges

A fairer comparison would be:
TMobile havin' an Issue/Problem with 
AnAndroidDevice would TMobile Moved as Quick with 
ThisIssue&ThisProblem of Service, I presume So

JustSayin'

It's not AnApple iOS issue for iOSUsers with Other MobileCariers
It's simply confined to TMobile
JustSayin'
At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
Cheree, you’re not going anywhere.  Even if 
you don’t like the change in mail.  If you 
think that’s tricky try using 
Android.  Android is a joke of an operating 
system in comparison.  If for example you want 
to use the web or expect stability, expect to 
get your security patched and updates and even 
expect  consistent experience then you’ll just hate android.


Here’s a practical example.  T-Mobile had a 
problem in IOS 10, it took them about 48 hours 
to push an update to all the phones and correct 
their problem.  If this was the google world the 
update would be pushed to phones based on each 
individual vendor’s timeline, which in the 
case of Samsung for example may have taken 
months.  Samsung has been as much as a year out 
of date in releasing updates of the OS.


Don’t even get me started on windows and that 
after thought of an screen reader situation.


I had such a bad experience with a Galaxy phone 
i actually took it to the firing range and put a 
308 round through the phone.  It rebooted one to 
many times during a phone interview to live.;)


On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe 
<che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote:


It seems counterproductive to force an 
up-to-date, streamlined functionality, such as 
iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of 
the iOS than the OS.  The iOS represents a 
gateway experience that the public has readily 
adopted.  Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's 
future for iOS, I am going to be forced into 
seeking another phone and notebook 
alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, 
full-blown, from an update promised to improve, 
to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an 
opposite opinion.  No release notes guided 
usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war 
between some who learned on that clumsy, 
multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and 
those using the iOs.  It is my opinion that the 
older, less easy OS needs to give place to the 
more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.

Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, 
like the old friends at rehab, insist on 
speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own 
best interest or risk losing something that 
could and did change the world for us.



Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden 
<dchitten...@gmail.com> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has 
changed. Visually, it now looks much more like 
mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.


When in the main message list, individual 
messages are still handled the same as in iOS 
9. Threads are different. If one double-taps 
on a thread to activate it, one goes into a 
browse thread view. In this view, 
single-finger vertical flick moves up and down 
through the messages. Single-finger 
horrizontal flicks read through the specific 
message. Double-tap on the delete button at 
the bottom of the screen deletes all messages 
in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick 
moves between threads, threads and individual 
messages which do not belong to threads, and 
individual messages. In other words, the same 
as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.


If one wishes to delete only some messages 
from a thread, the thread must be expanded. 
Whilst in the main message screen, 
single-finger vertical flick to expand thread 
and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked 
and all the messages in the thread are treated 
like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
become used to this new system, I really like 
it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become used to this new system.


I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging 
the behaviours of apps for iOS and Mac, that 
we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love 
touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.


David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton 
<philh...@gmail.com> wrote:


message threading seems to have changed 
substantially in IOS10. I can no longer 3 
finger flick from message to message in a 
thread, instead I have to use the “pre a

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[E.T.]

   The voice (a sane one) of reason speaks.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/16/2016 8:09 AM, Tim Kilburn wrote:

Hi,

It's interesting to me how many proclaim that change to an interface or
interaction is counterproductive or backwards intuitive.  Each time
Apple, Microsoft ()sorry for swearing on list), or Google change
something that we are all used to doing, a loud and, often, obnoxious
noise is heard.  I recall a huge noise made when Apple changed the look
of iTunes, both by VO users on my various lists and by sighted users,
including my own family.  I also recall a huge noise that was made when
the look and feel of Word changed.  Most of us have got used to these
changes, embraced pretty well all of them and, in lots of cases, have
come to prefer these new ways of interaction.  Now, as a change has been
made once again, here comes the noise.

As a matter of interest, the designers at these corporations don't pull
these ideas out of their behind.  They are usually derived from users,
and the public wanting their devices to accomplish things and/or work
towards a new development or experience.  Some are stepping stones,
others are just new ways of dealing with things that we've become
accustomed to.  I get it, often these changes don't initially appear to
be helpful, useful or even desirable, and they usually take time to
become part of our experience, yet they do.

I fully expect that in a years time, and probably in two years time,
when the next batch of iOS, or MacOS, or whatever hybrid of them is in
the wind is released, we'll hear this same old tune again.  Music to my
ears, NOT.

I'll be quiet on this thread now.  Fell off my soap box.

Later...

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Sep 15, 2016, at 19:23, Scott Granados mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:

It’s also counter productive to stagnate.


On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe mailto:che...@dogsc4me.com>> wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily
adopted.  Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am
going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook
alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update
promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No
release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just
not helpful or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using
the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give
place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the
other way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own
good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
losing something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.

If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to this new system,
I really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become
used to this new system.

I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps
for iOS and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love
touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

T.V. Rahman hasn't been on the team for almost 7 years now.  He's long long 
long long long! since been gone.

---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

i...@gillandmarketing.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
- Original Message - 
From: "Donna Goodin" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes


This is very good to hear.  Hopefully, they've lost that jerk T.V. Rahman. 
I hope you are right, I think it's always better to have more choices.

Cheers,
Donna

On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:48 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

I’ll do it publicly online so people can follow along through the 
frustrations and successes.  The android world has changed massively since 
2010.  Really until a few months ago it was pretty pitiful.  Victor and 
his team took talkback to a new level though recently.  Seems like changes 
internal to google and personnel wise took place and the results are 
highly encouraging.  It’s not there yet but it’s a contender where back in 
your time frame it was most definitely not.



On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:44 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:

Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear 
about your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, 
actually--back in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone 
experience in just about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has 
made some strides since then, but my earlier experience was bad enough 
that I'll let someone else do the comparison testing. :)

Cheers,
Donna

On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another 
vendor.  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a 
comparison so I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll 
put down the 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way 
it’s a full dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and 
forth between devices and take my own advice to commit.:)



On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:

OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android 
experience?

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  
wrote:


Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
prostate exam from Captain Hook.




On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
 wrote:


Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
means nothing honestly.
Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the 
everyone business and the people who do like there products and 
services obviously pay more.

What is a Mac in most cases?
A PC…
A Personal Computer …
But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there 
changes will continue paying for them.
I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
doing there updates, and just had to say, so what…
Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.

#choices.
And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that 
i couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. 
He didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
released helped me a lot.

Thanks for reading my rant.
Best.


On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:

Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is 
inevitable. If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution 
is, of course, jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle 
repeats itself.


Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
Applevis.


How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system 
but it sure outruns Windows.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com


On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS. 
The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
adopted.

Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
going
to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative. 
This
mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to 
improve,

to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
release
notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not 
helpful

or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned 
on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those 
using 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi,

It's interesting to me how many proclaim that change to an interface or 
interaction is counterproductive or backwards intuitive.  Each time Apple, 
Microsoft ()sorry for swearing on list), or Google change something that we are 
all used to doing, a loud and, often, obnoxious noise is heard.  I recall a 
huge noise made when Apple changed the look of iTunes, both by VO users on my 
various lists and by sighted users, including my own family.  I also recall a 
huge noise that was made when the look and feel of Word changed.  Most of us 
have got used to these changes, embraced pretty well all of them and, in lots 
of cases, have come to prefer these new ways of interaction.  Now, as a change 
has been made once again, here comes the noise.

As a matter of interest, the designers at these corporations don't pull these 
ideas out of their behind.  They are usually derived from users, and the public 
wanting their devices to accomplish things and/or work towards a new 
development or experience.  Some are stepping stones, others are just new ways 
of dealing with things that we've become accustomed to.  I get it, often these 
changes don't initially appear to be helpful, useful or even desirable, and 
they usually take time to become part of our experience, yet they do.

I fully expect that in a years time, and probably in two years time, when the 
next batch of iOS, or MacOS, or whatever hybrid of them is in the wind is 
released, we'll hear this same old tune again.  Music to my ears, NOT.

I'll be quiet on this thread now.  Fell off my soap box.

Later...

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Sep 15, 2016, at 19:23, Scott Granados  wrote:

It’s also counter productive to stagnate.

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe  > wrote:
> 
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined functionality, 
> such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to be 
> forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail issue 
> mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make simpler, 
> to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
> easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It 
> is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more 
> modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
> something that could and did change the world for us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  > wrote:
> 
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>> 
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger 
>> vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger 
>> horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. Double-tap on the 
>> delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the 
>> thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and 
>> individual messages which do not belong to threads, and individual messages. 
>> In other words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message 
>> list screen.
>> 
>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
>> expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
>> expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the 
>> messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
>> become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of 
>> frustration to become used to this new system.
>> 
>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
>> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and 
>> want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

I think your dead on.  I think there are different mind sets as well.  I think 
some who may be more technical or more of an engineering mindset like Android.  
The openness, the way things are done etc.  Where others just want to use the 
phone not get under the hood.  That’s an interesting contrast Donna that I have 
seen as well.
 

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> You know, that's interesting.  I've had a similar experience watching my 
> parents with iPads and iPhones, but what's funny is that my dad, who was a 
> programmer back in the days of punch cards and computers that took up an 
> entire large room, has found the iPhone difficult to get used to, whereas my 
> mom, who will tell anyone who wants to know that technology hates her, has 
> taken to the iPad very easily.  I think my mom's lack of prior computer 
> experience actually helped her, because she didn't have a bunch of 
> preconceived notions about how things are "supposed to" work.
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:02 AM, Scott Granados > > wrote:
>> 
>> You know you make a really interesting point.  Thinking back on it, I went 
>> from a PPC-6850 to an iPod.  I remember breaking that guy out of the box and 
>> just sort of nudeling around with it for a few minutes and I’d say with in 
>> an hour I was comfortable with the very basics.  I remember taking a long 
>> time to work up to the app store and using apps because I was surprised they 
>> would be accessible having no such luck on the power PC.  The thing I’ve 
>> noticed with sited and blind alike is with an Apple device you can pick it 
>> up even with out initial training and there’s parts of it that just make 
>> sense and click.  My father’s a great example of this.  I handed him an iPad 
>> and had to admonish him twice on the ride home to stop playing with his iPad 
>> and driving at the same time.:) With in a week he new more hand gestures 
>> than I did and he never looked back.  Impressive to see but that’s been a 
>> big push from Apple back to the days of the Lisa.  Anyone remember Steve 
>> Job’s daughter’s experience with paint on the Mac?  I think intuitive use 
>> has been a thrust of apple since after the switch from the Apple 2 to the 
>> graphical devices.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:53 AM, Donna Goodin >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny 
>>> to think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and 
>>> I would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet 
>>> now it kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.
>>> 
>>> I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
>>> understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say 
>>> about Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know 
>>> the solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution 
>>> isn't always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be 
>>> intuitive, but I suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that 
>>> I haven't upgraded, so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados >>> > wrote:
 
 You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive 
 but let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple 
 products.  I was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile 
 speak days on Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time 
 that was highly life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally 
 changed my professional life for example being able to text with my 
 coworkers and receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here 
 a random meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
 revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
 screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a 
 game.  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout 
 that was never available before.  So my experience probably differs from 
 yours only because I came from a really proprietary environment from code 
 factory to a more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe 
 mainstream isn’t the best way to express it.
 
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten  > wrote:
> 
> What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
> device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now 
> you and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. 
> What if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how t

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

I’m interested actually and if Mark or Kara want it to stop then by all means 
but if you wouldn’t mind detailing your experience.  Did you switch over, are 
you using both?  Which model phone did you switch to or are using along with 
the iPhone?

Like I said my last experience was an S5 and I ended up shooting the phone.:)  
I assume you’re using something newer though.  How did it go for you?

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Krister Ekstrom  
> wrote:
> 
> I can confirm the experience of the Samsung devices being more iPhone like. 
> That helped me a lot in the switch. ’nough said about that here.
> /Krister
> 
>> 16 sep. 2016 kl. 13:45 skrev Scott Granados :
>> 
>> You know the Samsung devices have a custom interface that is much more 
>> iPhone like.  That makes it easier for some to transition over.  I have my 
>> issues with Samsung but others may have a better time of it and that’s one 
>> similarity that may make it easier and worth while.
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:10 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Mary,
>>> 
>>> I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to use 
>>> than os 5 
>>> 
>>> Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but 
>>> then that's just because it's my device of preference.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
>>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>> 
>>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
>>>>> means nothing honestly.
>>>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>>>> pay more.
>>>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>>>> A PC…
>>>>> A Personal Computer …
>>>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>>>>> will continue paying for them.
>>>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
>>>>> doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, 
>>>>> back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 
>>>>> 10 touch phone, etc.
>>>>> #choices.
>>>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
>>>>> released helped me a lot.
>>>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>>>> Best.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>>>>>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
>>>>>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
>>>>>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>>>>> Applevis.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
>>>>>> it sure outruns Windows.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>>>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>>>>>> It seems cou

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

You know, that's interesting.  I've had a similar experience watching my 
parents with iPads and iPhones, but what's funny is that my dad, who was a 
programmer back in the days of punch cards and computers that took up an entire 
large room, has found the iPhone difficult to get used to, whereas my mom, who 
will tell anyone who wants to know that technology hates her, has taken to the 
iPad very easily.  I think my mom's lack of prior computer experience actually 
helped her, because she didn't have a bunch of preconceived notions about how 
things are "supposed to" work.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:02 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> You know you make a really interesting point.  Thinking back on it, I went 
> from a PPC-6850 to an iPod.  I remember breaking that guy out of the box and 
> just sort of nudeling around with it for a few minutes and I’d say with in an 
> hour I was comfortable with the very basics.  I remember taking a long time 
> to work up to the app store and using apps because I was surprised they would 
> be accessible having no such luck on the power PC.  The thing I’ve noticed 
> with sited and blind alike is with an Apple device you can pick it up even 
> with out initial training and there’s parts of it that just make sense and 
> click.  My father’s a great example of this.  I handed him an iPad and had to 
> admonish him twice on the ride home to stop playing with his iPad and driving 
> at the same time.:) With in a week he new more hand gestures than I did and 
> he never looked back.  Impressive to see but that’s been a big push from 
> Apple back to the days of the Lisa.  Anyone remember Steve Job’s daughter’s 
> experience with paint on the Mac?  I think intuitive use has been a thrust of 
> apple since after the switch from the Apple 2 to the graphical devices.
> 
>  
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:53 AM, Donna Goodin > > wrote:
>> 
>> Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny 
>> to think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and 
>> I would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet 
>> now it kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.
>> 
>> I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
>> understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say 
>> about Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know 
>> the solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution 
>> isn't always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be intuitive, 
>> but I suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that I haven't 
>> upgraded, so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive but 
>>> let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple products.  
>>> I was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile speak days on 
>>> Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time that was highly 
>>> life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally changed my 
>>> professional life for example being able to text with my coworkers and 
>>> receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here a random 
>>> meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
>>> In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
>>> revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
>>> screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a 
>>> game.  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout 
>>> that was never available before.  So my experience probably differs from 
>>> yours only because I came from a really proprietary environment from code 
>>> factory to a more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe 
>>> mainstream isn’t the best way to express it.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten >>> > wrote:
 
 What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
 device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you 
 and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What 
 if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to 
 efficiently use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less 
 intuitive than what you are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily 
 less intuitive. We're iPhone Apple is in not coming out with the 
 documentation to let us know about this stuff when they release the final 
 OS. Fiddling around is for beta testers. When you release a final product 
 which is supposed to be accessible, you need to dot the eyes and cross the 
 tease, and let us know how it is different 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Krister Ekstrom]

I can confirm the experience of the Samsung devices being more iPhone like. 
That helped me a lot in the switch. ’nough said about that here.
/Krister

> 16 sep. 2016 kl. 13:45 skrev Scott Granados :
> 
> You know the Samsung devices have a custom interface that is much more iPhone 
> like.  That makes it easier for some to transition over.  I have my issues 
> with Samsung but others may have a better time of it and that’s one 
> similarity that may make it easier and worth while.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:10 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Mary,
>> 
>> I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to use 
>> than os 5 
>> 
>> Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but then 
>> that's just because it's my device of preference.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>> 
>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>>> nothing honestly.
>>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>>> pay more.
>>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>>> A PC…
>>>> A Personal Computer …
>>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>>>> will continue paying for them.
>>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
>>>> doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back 
>>>> to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 
>>>> touch phone, etc.
>>>> #choices.
>>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>>> helped me a lot.
>>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>>> Best.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>>>>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If 
>>>>> that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump 
>>>>> ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>>>> Applevis.
>>>>> 
>>>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>>>> 
>>>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>>>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>>>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>>>>> system, namely OS.
>>>>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>>>>>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>>>>>> adopted.
>>>>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>>>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>>>>>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>>>>>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an 
>>>>>> update promised to i

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

You know you make a really interesting point.  Thinking back on it, I went from 
a PPC-6850 to an iPod.  I remember breaking that guy out of the box and just 
sort of nudeling around with it for a few minutes and I’d say with in an hour I 
was comfortable with the very basics.  I remember taking a long time to work up 
to the app store and using apps because I was surprised they would be 
accessible having no such luck on the power PC.  The thing I’ve noticed with 
sited and blind alike is with an Apple device you can pick it up even with out 
initial training and there’s parts of it that just make sense and click.  My 
father’s a great example of this.  I handed him an iPad and had to admonish him 
twice on the ride home to stop playing with his iPad and driving at the same 
time.:) With in a week he new more hand gestures than I did and he never looked 
back.  Impressive to see but that’s been a big push from Apple back to the days 
of the Lisa.  Anyone remember Steve Job’s daughter’s experience with paint on 
the Mac?  I think intuitive use has been a thrust of apple since after the 
switch from the Apple 2 to the graphical devices.

 

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:53 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny to 
> think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and I 
> would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet now 
> it kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.
> 
> I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
> understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say 
> about Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know 
> the solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution 
> isn't always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be intuitive, 
> but I suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that I haven't 
> upgraded, so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados > > wrote:
>> 
>> You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive but 
>> let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple products.  
>> I was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile speak days on 
>> Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time that was highly 
>> life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally changed my 
>> professional life for example being able to text with my coworkers and 
>> receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here a random 
>> meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
>>  In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
>> revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
>> screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a 
>> game.  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout that 
>> was never available before.  So my experience probably differs from yours 
>> only because I came from a really proprietary environment from code factory 
>> to a more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe mainstream 
>> isn’t the best way to express it.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
>>> device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you 
>>> and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What 
>>> if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to 
>>> efficiently use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less intuitive 
>>> than what you are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily less 
>>> intuitive. We're iPhone Apple is in not coming out with the documentation 
>>> to let us know about this stuff when they release the final OS. Fiddling 
>>> around is for beta testers. When you release a final product which is 
>>> supposed to be accessible, you need to dot the eyes and cross the tease, 
>>> and let us know how it is different in terms of our particular 
>>> accessibility needs. That goes with the territory of universal design. I 
>>> know reading is out of fashion out with specially with the younger 
>>> generation. But a little bit of documentation goes a long way.
>>>  A picture is not necessarily worth a few words, especially when you're 
>>> dealing with someone who can't see the freaking picture.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe >> > wrote:
>>> 
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
 namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

This is very good to hear.  Hopefully, they've lost that jerk T.V. Rahman.  I 
hope you are right, I think it's always better to have more choices.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:48 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> I’ll do it publicly online so people can follow along through the 
> frustrations and successes.  The android world has changed massively since 
> 2010.  Really until a few months ago it was pretty pitiful.  Victor and his 
> team took talkback to a new level though recently.  Seems like changes 
> internal to google and personnel wise took place and the results are highly 
> encouraging.  It’s not there yet but it’s a contender where back in your time 
> frame it was most definitely not.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:44 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
>> 
>> Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
>> your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back 
>> in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in 
>> just about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides 
>> since then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone 
>> else do the comparison testing. :)
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another 
>>> vendor.  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a 
>>> comparison so I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll 
>>> put down the 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way 
>>> it’s a full dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and forth 
>>> between devices and take my own advice to commit.:)
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
>> means nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the 
>> everyone business and the people who do like there products and services 
>> obviously pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer … 
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>> will continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
>> that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
>> released helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
>>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
>>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
>>> it sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
 system, namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
 iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
 adopted.
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
 If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
 to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
 mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
 to make simpler, to add features.
 My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
 release
 notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

The Samsung phone I had was easily my favorite Windows Mobile phone.  If I ever 
switch to Android, I'd be very tempted to go with a Samsung.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:45 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> You know the Samsung devices have a custom interface that is much more iPhone 
> like.  That makes it easier for some to transition over.  I have my issues 
> with Samsung but others may have a better time of it and that’s one 
> similarity that may make it easier and worth while.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:10 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Mary,
>> 
>> I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to use 
>> than os 5 
>> 
>> Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but then 
>> that's just because it's my device of preference.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>> 
>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>>> nothing honestly.
>>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>>> pay more.
>>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>>> A PC…
>>>> A Personal Computer …
>>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>>>> will continue paying for them.
>>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
>>>> doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back 
>>>> to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 
>>>> touch phone, etc.
>>>> #choices.
>>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>>> helped me a lot.
>>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>>> Best.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>>>>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If 
>>>>> that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump 
>>>>> ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>>>> Applevis.
>>>>> 
>>>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>>>> 
>>>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>>>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>>>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>>>>> system, namely OS.
>>>>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>>>>>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>>>>>> adopted.
>>>>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>>>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>>>>>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>>>>>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an 
>>>>>> upda

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny to 
think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and I 
would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet now it 
kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.

I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say about 
Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know the 
solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution isn't 
always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be intuitive, but I 
suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that I haven't upgraded, 
so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
Cheers,
Donna


> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive but 
> let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple products.  I 
> was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile speak days on 
> Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time that was highly 
> life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally changed my 
> professional life for example being able to text with my coworkers and 
> receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here a random 
> meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
>   In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
> revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
> screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a game. 
>  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout that was 
> never available before.  So my experience probably differs from yours only 
> because I came from a really proprietary environment from code factory to a 
> more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe mainstream isn’t the 
> best way to express it.
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten > > wrote:
>> 
>> What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
>> device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you 
>> and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What 
>> if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to 
>> efficiently use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less intuitive 
>> than what you are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily less 
>> intuitive. We're iPhone Apple is in not coming out with the documentation to 
>> let us know about this stuff when they release the final OS. Fiddling around 
>> is for beta testers. When you release a final product which is supposed to 
>> be accessible, you need to dot the eyes and cross the tease, and let us know 
>> how it is different in terms of our particular accessibility needs. That 
>> goes with the territory of universal design. I know reading is out of 
>> fashion out with specially with the younger generation. But a little bit of 
>> documentation goes a long way.
>>  A picture is not necessarily worth a few words, especially when you're 
>> dealing with someone who can't see the freaking picture.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe > > wrote:
>> 
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
>>> namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>>> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
>>> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to 
>>> be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail 
>>> issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make 
>>> simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
>>> easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
>>> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  
>>> It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the 
>>> more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
>>> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
>>> something that could and did change the world for us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15,

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

I’ll do it publicly online so people can follow along through the frustrations 
and successes.  The android world has changed massively since 2010.  Really 
until a few months ago it was pretty pitiful.  Victor and his team took 
talkback to a new level though recently.  Seems like changes internal to google 
and personnel wise took place and the results are highly encouraging.  It’s not 
there yet but it’s a contender where back in your time frame it was most 
definitely not.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:44 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
> your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back 
> in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in just 
> about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides since 
> then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone else do 
> the comparison testing. :)
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another vendor. 
>>  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a comparison so 
>> I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll put down the 
>> 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way it’s a full 
>> dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and forth between 
>> devices and take my own advice to commit.:)
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
 
 Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
 prostate exam from Captain Hook.
 
 
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>  wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
> means nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
> pay more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer … 
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
> will continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
> that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
> released helped me a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>> Applevis.
>> 
>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
>> it sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>>> system, namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>>> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>>> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>>> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>>> to make simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>>> or easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
>>> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>>> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

You know the Samsung devices have a custom interface that is much more iPhone 
like.  That makes it easier for some to transition over.  I have my issues with 
Samsung but others may have a better time of it and that’s one similarity that 
may make it easier and worth while.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:10 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mary,
> 
> I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to use 
> than os 5 
> 
> Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but then 
> that's just because it's my device of preference.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
> 
> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>> nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>> pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer …
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>>> continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
>>> doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back 
>>> to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 
>>> touch phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>> helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>>>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>>>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>>>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>>> 
>>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>>> Applevis.
>>>> 
>>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>>> 
>>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>>> 
>>>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>>>> system, namely OS.
>>>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>>>>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>>>>> adopted.
>>>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>>>>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>>>>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an 
>>>>> update promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
>>>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>>>>> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
>>>>> not helpful or easily usable.
>>>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned 
>>>>> on that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those 
>>>>> using the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs 
>>>>> to give place to the mo

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)

Well played sir.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Scott,
> 
> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
> 
> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>> nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>> pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer …
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>> continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
>> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
>> phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>> helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>>> system, namely OS.
>>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>>>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>>>> adopted.
>>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>>>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>>>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update 
>>>> promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
>>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>>>> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
>>>> not helpful or easily usable.
>>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on 
>>>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using 
>>>> the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to 
>>>> give place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and 
>>>> not the other way round.
>>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at 
>>>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
>>>> good.
>>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk 
>>>> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >>> <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Correct,

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back in 
2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in just 
about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides since 
then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone else do 
the comparison testing. :)
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another vendor.  
> Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a comparison so 
> I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll put down the 7+ 
> and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way it’s a full 
> dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and forth between devices 
> and take my own advice to commit.:)
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
 wrote:
 
 Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
 All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
 nothing honestly.
 Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
 business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
 pay more.
 What is a Mac in most cases?
 A PC…
 A Personal Computer … 
 But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
 will continue paying for them.
 I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
 there updates, and just had to say, so what…
 Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
 phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
 #choices.
 And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
 couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
 didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
 helped me a lot.
 Thanks for reading my rant.
 Best.
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If 
> that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump 
> ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
> 
> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
> Applevis.
> 
> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
> sure outruns Windows.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>> system, namely OS.
>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>> to make simpler, to add features.
>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>> or easily usable.
>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
>> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
>> way round.
>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
>> good.
>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
>> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visual

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive but let 
me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple products.  I was 
one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile speak days on Pocket PC 
devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time that was highly life changing 
stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally changed my professional life for 
example being able to text with my coworkers and receive alerts from automated 
devices and do more than here a random meaningless alert with no idea what was 
being sent to me.
In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the screen 
instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a game.  You 
also got visual information like screen placement and layout that was never 
available before.  So my experience probably differs from yours only because I 
came from a really proprietary environment from code factory to a more 
mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe mainstream isn’t the best 
way to express it.


> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
> device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you 
> and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What if 
> it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to efficiently 
> use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less intuitive than what you 
> are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily less intuitive. We're iPhone 
> Apple is in not coming out with the documentation to let us know about this 
> stuff when they release the final OS. Fiddling around is for beta testers. 
> When you release a final product which is supposed to be accessible, you need 
> to dot the eyes and cross the tease, and let us know how it is different in 
> terms of our particular accessibility needs. That goes with the territory of 
> universal design. I know reading is out of fashion out with specially with 
> the younger generation. But a little bit of documentation goes a long way.
>  A picture is not necessarily worth a few words, especially when you're 
> dealing with someone who can't see the freaking picture.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe  > wrote:
> 
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
>> namely OS.
>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
>> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to 
>> be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail 
>> issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make 
>> simpler, to add features.
>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
>> easily usable.
>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
>> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It 
>> is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more 
>> modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
>> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
>> something that could and did change the world for us.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>> 
>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, 
>>> single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. 
>>> Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. 
>>> Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all 
>>> messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between 
>>> threads, threads and individual messages which do not belong to threads, 
>>> and individual messages. In other words, the same as single-finger 
>>> horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>>> 
>>> If one wishes to d

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

You know what would be nice too, is if we were less anal about the public beta 
and discussed these major changes openly so people aren’t surprised.  The 
Cheree’s of the world could elect not to update for example until a 
satisfactory alternative presents itself or not update at all putting the 
control in their hands instead of jumping in with out all the facts to make an 
informed decision.

It would also be nice if Apple could unbundle the security updates from the OS 
updates so again folks not wanting to update could apply security patches and 
stay safe with out introducing new features.  That might undo some of the apple 
advantage though but I’m definitely not against putting more choice in to the 
hands of the end user.

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:13 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
>  I think where Apple could do better would be in releasing some documentation 
> regarding how voiceover users are supposed to deal with things that have 
> substantially changed. I don't agree that things have to stay the same. And 
> David's discussion of how to deal with the email was very good. I think that 
> Apple should do that. I also think that Apple should update their 
> documentation on commands, Bluetooth, braille display etc. One of the things 
> about making a commitment to accessibility is to realize that for people who 
> can. See, dealing with the changes to the interface may be a lot easier then 
> for people who can't. That's why they need to employ people who get that, 
> since your average designer doesn't. There are a lot of things that become 
> immediately clear decided people because they can take in the entire 
> interface at once and understand how to deal with it. That's not so easy if 
> you can't do that.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:47 PM, Cheree Heppe  > wrote:
> 
>> That's nonsense.
>> I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
>> Apple claims universal design.
>> When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't about 
>> somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
>> Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have quoted, or 
>> the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles and weaving 
>> baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
>> Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not change for 
>> its own sake.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>> nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>> pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer … 
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>>> continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
>>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
>>> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>> helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. >>> > wrote:
 
  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
 adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If 
 that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump 
 ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
 Applevis.
 
  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
 sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
> to be forced into seeking another p

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another vendor.  
Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a comparison so I’ll 
use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll put down the 7+ and 
move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way it’s a full dedicated 
experience instead of trying to flip back and forth between devices and take my 
own advice to commit.:)

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>> nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>> pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer … 
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>>> continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
>>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
>>> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>> helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
 
 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
 to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
 what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
 inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
 Applevis.
 
 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
 sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 
> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
> to make simpler, to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
> or easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
> way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
> good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  > wrote:
> 
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
>> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>> 
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
>> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
>> thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
>> view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
>> messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
>> message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
>> deletes all messages in the thread. Th

RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

Hi Mary,

I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to use than 
os 5 

 Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but then 
that's just because it's my device of preference.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
Mary
 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>> nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>> pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer …
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>> continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
>> doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back 
>> to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
>> phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>> helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
>>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>>> system, namely OS.
>>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>>>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>>>> adopted.
>>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>>>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>>>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an 
>>>> update promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
>>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>>>> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
>>>> not helpful or easily usable.
>>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned 
>>>> on that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those 
>>>> using the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs 
>>>> to give place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs 
>>>> and not the other way round.
>>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at 
>>>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
>>>> good.
>>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or 
>>>> risk losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >>> <mailto:d

RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

No other IT company produces products with as good built in accessibility  
systems.



-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Blee Blat
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:59 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

I actually think Apple does better than the alternatives for accessibility. I 
don't have a clue what to do with  a lot of the new features and user interface 
changes. But there's an on / off switch for everything. If I ever find a use 
for these features I don't understand, then I can re-enable them. Just use what 
you like. These devices are trying to be made usable for what they believe to 
be the common user. I'm not that so I will not complain if I don't like the way 
something works. I'll just tweak things to work in a sane way and enjoy the 
things that are working.

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RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

If your getting this upset about a couple of bugs in IOS 10 then you’ve got 
real big issues coming next week with sierra being released.

Can garuntee it’s going to have multiple issues in it.
That is the way of  the world when it comes to releasing new Operating systems.

El capitan or IOS 9,
Windows 8 & 81 and not to mention windows anniversary edition

Android android devices or OS also have their sisues.

Good luck finding a system without a pre loved bug in it.

If there were no bugs or problems then you wouldn’t need to update things.Sent: 
Friday, 16 September 2016 1:51 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

Firing range??
LOL


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:44, Scott Granados 
mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
Cheree, you’re not going anywhere.  Even if you don’t like the change in mail.  
If you think that’s tricky try using Android.  Android is a joke of an 
operating system in comparison.  If for example you want to use the web or 
expect stability, expect to get your security patched and updates and even 
expect  consistent experience then you’ll just hate android.

Here’s a practical example.  T-Mobile had a problem in IOS 10, it took them 
about 48 hours to push an update to all the phones and correct their problem.  
If this was the google world the update would be pushed to phones based on each 
individual vendor’s timeline, which in the case of Samsung for example may have 
taken months.  Samsung has been as much as a year out of date in releasing 
updates of the OS.

Don’t even get me started on windows and that after thought of an screen reader 
situation.

I had such a bad experience with a Galaxy phone i actually took it to the 
firing range and put a 308 round through the phone.  It rebooted one to many 
times during a phone interview to live.;)

On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe 
mailto:che...@dogsc4me.com>> wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined functionality, 
such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among the 
public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to be 
forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail issue 
mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make simpler, to 
add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release notes 
guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or easily 
usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It is 
my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more modern, 
more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden 
mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks much 
more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the same 
as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to activate 
it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger vertical 
flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks 
read through the specific message. Double-tap on the delete button at the 
bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger 
horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and individual messages which 
do not belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same as 
single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.

If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the messages 
in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have become used 
to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to 
become used to this new system.

I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS and 
Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and want my 
touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchit

RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

Scott,

 Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a prostate 
exam from Captain Hook.



> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
> wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
> nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously pay 
> more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer …
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
> continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
> phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He didn’t 
> know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me 
> a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>>  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>> Applevis.
>> 
>>  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>> sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>> system, namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update 
>>> promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>>> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
>>> not helpful or easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on 
>>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using 
>>> the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to 
>>> give place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and 
>>> not the other way round.
>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at 
>>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk 
>>> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >> <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now 
>>>> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>>> 
>>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still 
>>>> handled the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one 
>>>> double-taps on a thread to activate it, one goes into a browse 
>>>> thread view. In this view, single-finger vertical flick moves up 
>>>> and down through the 

RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

I’ve been using the IOS beta for two months and now with the actual release I’m 
finding a couple of oddities but nothing that I’d lose my cool over,

No OS that gets released is bug proof just feedback to the develpers what your 
finding and then see what happens.

I’ve found one little issue with mail otherwise I’m not seeing any thing I 
don’t like thus far.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:27 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention downright 
insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you something.  We 
devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did so in iOS 9, and I 
even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  Trust me.  I was on the 10 
beta from June 30th, when it was announced at WWDC until now.  I've ever since 
had at least one of my devices on 10.

I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours to 
the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no sollution 
was ever made.  So don't be putting the blame on us devs, OK?  We've done our 
damdest! to make this new version of OSX, TVOS, Watch OS, and iOS as  wonderful 
as possible.  The thing is, once we make the bug reports through the 
bugreporter bug tracker, we really don't then have much of a say past that 
point.  If Apple fixes it, great, if not, well, we've done our parts by 
reporting it.

Now, if us devs just saw the bug and ignored it, then therefore it was released 
buggy, then, I'd totally give this message to you, but, hunttauhh.  I'm not 
lettin' you have this.  I'm sorry.  Us devs deserve more credit, and respect!  
We really, really really did try!

Can another person on this list who's a dev and paid the 99 for the iOS 10 
cycle please speak up and advocate for us all here as well?  This is just wrong!
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

i...@gillandmarketing.com<mailto:i...@gillandmarketing.com>
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
- Original Message -
From: Cheree Heppe<mailto:che...@dogsc4me.com>
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com<mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

You developers and designers, changers and alter era can flick yourselves into 
you-know-where regarding this change to mail on iOS.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden 
mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks much 
more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the same 
as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to activate 
it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger vertical 
flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks 
read through the specific message. Double-tap on the delete button at the 
bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger 
horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and individual messages which 
do not belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same as 
single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.

If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the messages 
in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have become used 
to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to 
become used to this new system.

I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS and 
Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and want my 
touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com<mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton 
mailto:philh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no longer 
3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to use the 
“pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a thread no 
longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in the thread 
and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre message 
buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message to message 
gone in ios10?
Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
settings that need tweaking?


--
The f

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Joseph Hudson]

Hi, I'm definitely not dead but I will definitely speak up for you. Just 
because I've talk to you on the phone a few times. I know damn well, that you 
worked extremely hard on communicating with the wonderful people and yeah I 
agree comments weren't necessary like that whatsoever you want to put the 
developers down, you muzzle put yourself down if you are one. And if not you 
shouldn't talk especially, if you're not beta testing/ and IOS developer. Now 
you're one of those people, and then you might have something to say like that. 
But otherwise, you really don't. I believe the beta testers/ developers, Worth 
a darn hardest to communicate with he makers and builders of the software in 
their respective ways and make sure that you know everything is well 
implemented. I believe that Apple tries to putting, as much Time as I possibly 
can into one operating system. If there's a feature that doesn't make eat you 
can almost guarantee that it's going to be in the next release. So  before 
making comments like that one, you should think about how much time Apple spins 
putting everything together and what might be included. Oh and for after all, 
the software is free to you. As long as you on the device. So if you don't like 
it, throw it away.
Joseph Hudson 
Group administrator for the following
groups
chat
http://list.ntxability.org/mailman/listinfo/chat_list.ntxability.org 
<http://list.ntxability.org/mailman/listinfo/chat_list.ntxability.org>
blind apples
http://cruising.ultragroups.com/mailman/listinfo/blindapples_cruising.ultragroups.com
 
<http://cruising.ultragroups.com/mailman/listinfo/blindapples_cruising.ultragroups.com>

blind square GPS
http://cruising.ultragroups.com/mailman/listinfo/blindsquaregps_cruising.ultragroups.com
 
<http://cruising.ultragroups.com/mailman/listinfo/blindsquaregps_cruising.ultragroups.com>

 blind handyman
http://cruising.ultragroups.com/mailman/listinfo/blindhandyman_cruising.ultragroups.com
 
<http://cruising.ultragroups.com/mailman/listinfo/blindhandyman_cruising.ultragroups.com>

iPad help for the blind
https://groups.io/g/IPadhelpfortheblind 
<https://groups.io/g/IPadhelpfortheblind>

Email
jhud7...@gmail.com <mailto:jhud7...@gmail.com>
I device support
Telephone
2543007667
Skype
joseph.hudson89
facebook
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404 
<https://www.facebook.com/joseph.hudson.9404>
Twitter
https://twitter.com/josephhudson89 

FaceTime/iMessage
jhud7...@yahoo.com <mailto:jhud7...@yahoo.com>
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland  
> wrote:
> 
> Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention 
> downright insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you 
> something.  We devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did 
> so in iOS 9, and I even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  Trust 
> me.  I was on the 10 beta from June 30th, when it was announced at WWDC until 
> now.  I've ever since had at least one of my devices on 10.
>  
> I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours 
> to the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no 
> sollution was ever made.  So don't be putting the blame on us devs, OK?  
> We've done our damdest! to make this new version of OSX, TVOS, Watch OS, and 
> iOS as  wonderful as possible.  The thing is, once we make the bug reports 
> through the bugreporter bug tracker, we really don't then have much of a say 
> past that point.  If Apple fixes it, great, if not, well, we've done our 
> parts by reporting it.
>  
> Now, if us devs just saw the bug and ignored it, then therefore it was 
> released buggy, then, I'd totally give this message to you, but, hunttauhh.  
> I'm not lettin' you have this.  I'm sorry.  Us devs deserve more credit, and 
> respect!  We really, really really did try!
>  
> Can another person on this list who's a dev and paid the 99 for the iOS 10 
> cycle please speak up and advocate for us all here as well?  This is just 
> wrong!
> ---
> Christopher Gilland
> JAWS Certified, 2016.
> Training Instructor.
>  
> i...@gillandmarketing.com <mailto:i...@gillandmarketing.com>
> Phone: (704) 256-8010.
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: Cheree Heppe <mailto:che...@dogsc4me.com>
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>> 
>> You developers and designers, changers and alter era can flick yourselves 
>> into you-know-where regarding this change to mail on iOS.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Mary Otten]

What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you and 
I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What if it 
could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to efficiently use 
the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less intuitive than what you are 
used to? It is change. It is not necessarily less intuitive. We're iPhone Apple 
is in not coming out with the documentation to let us know about this stuff 
when they release the final OS. Fiddling around is for beta testers. When you 
release a final product which is supposed to be accessible, you need to dot the 
eyes and cross the tease, and let us know how it is different in terms of our 
particular accessibility needs. That goes with the territory of universal 
design. I know reading is out of fashion out with specially with the younger 
generation. But a little bit of documentation goes a long way.
 A picture is not necessarily worth a few words, especially when you're dealing 
with someone who can't see the freaking picture.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
> 
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined functionality, 
> such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to be 
> forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail issue 
> mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make simpler, 
> to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
> easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It 
> is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more 
> modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
> something that could and did change the world for us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  wrote:
>> 
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>> 
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger 
>> vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger 
>> horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. Double-tap on the 
>> delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the 
>> thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and 
>> individual messages which do not belong to threads, and individual messages. 
>> In other words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message 
>> list screen.
>> 
>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
>> expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
>> expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the 
>> messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
>> become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of 
>> frustration to become used to this new system.
>> 
>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
>> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and 
>> want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton  wrote:
>>> 
>>> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
>>> longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have 
>>> to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
>>> thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in 
>>> the thread and then have to navigate between messages using the next and 
>>> pre message buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from 
>>> message to message gone in ios10?
>>> Also how

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Mary Otten]

I'm not actually sure how different this is for sighted people. The only 
sighted person I know, make that two people, who have I devices, haven't 
upgraded yet. So in terms of design, it may be that it visually resembles the 
Mac, but it may also be that the change is no big deal for decided folks. And 
it may also be that once we understand how this deal works, it will be fine. 
We're Apple dropped the ball, as I said before, is in not providing some 
thorough explanation of the most efficient ways to deal with the new system, 
rather than leaving us to fumble around and try to figure it out for ourselves, 
which, when you're used to doing things one way and can't see, can be a hell of 
a lot harder than it is for the average sighted person who isn't over 75. And 
Scott, to be fair, your galaxy experience was at least two years old. Not 
saying you won't have the same experience now. But please don't do like the 
Apple haters on the android list do and reference experience from three or four 
years ago.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:44 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Cheree, you’re not going anywhere.  Even if you don’t like the change in 
> mail.  If you think that’s tricky try using Android.  Android is a joke of an 
> operating system in comparison.  If for example you want to use the web or 
> expect stability, expect to get your security patched and updates and even 
> expect  consistent experience then you’ll just hate android.
> 
> Here’s a practical example.  T-Mobile had a problem in IOS 10, it took them 
> about 48 hours to push an update to all the phones and correct their problem. 
>  If this was the google world the update would be pushed to phones based on 
> each individual vendor’s timeline, which in the case of Samsung for example 
> may have taken months.  Samsung has been as much as a year out of date in 
> releasing updates of the OS.
> 
> Don’t even get me started on windows and that after thought of an screen 
> reader situation.
> 
> I had such a bad experience with a Galaxy phone i actually took it to the 
> firing range and put a 308 round through the phone.  It rebooted one to many 
> times during a phone interview to live.;)
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
>> 
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
>> namely OS.
>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
>> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to 
>> be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail 
>> issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make 
>> simpler, to add features.
>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
>> easily usable.
>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
>> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It 
>> is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more 
>> modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
>> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
>> something that could and did change the world for us.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>> 
>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, 
>>> single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. 
>>> Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. 
>>> Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all 
>>> messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between 
>>> threads, threads and individual messages which do not belong to threads, 
>>> and individual messages. In other words, the same as single-finger 
>>> horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>>> 
>>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must 
>>> be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical 
>>> flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all 
>>> the messages i

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Mary Otten]

OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
Mary
 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>> nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>> pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer … 
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>> continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
>> updates, and just had to say, so what…
>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
>> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>> helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
 system, namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
 iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
 If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
 to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
 mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
 to make simpler, to add features.
 My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
 notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
 or easily usable.
 It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
 that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
 iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
 to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
 way round.
 Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
 There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
 rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
 good.
 I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
 losing something that could and did change the world for us.
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >>> > wrote:
 
> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
> 
> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
> thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
> view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
> messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
> message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
> deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
> moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
> belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
> as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
> 
> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
> must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
> vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
> unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
> non-thread messages. Now tha

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Mary Otten]

 I think where Apple could do better would be in releasing some documentation 
regarding how voiceover users are supposed to deal with things that have 
substantially changed. I don't agree that things have to stay the same. And 
David's discussion of how to deal with the email was very good. I think that 
Apple should do that. I also think that Apple should update their documentation 
on commands, Bluetooth, braille display etc. One of the things about making a 
commitment to accessibility is to realize that for people who can. See, dealing 
with the changes to the interface may be a lot easier then for people who 
can't. That's why they need to employ people who get that, since your average 
designer doesn't. There are a lot of things that become immediately clear 
decided people because they can take in the entire interface at once and 
understand how to deal with it. That's not so easy if you can't do that.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:47 PM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
> 
> That's nonsense.
> I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
> Apple claims universal design.
> When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't about 
> somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
> Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have quoted, or 
> the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles and weaving 
> baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
> Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not change for 
> its own sake.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>> nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>> pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer … 
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>> continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
>> updates, and just had to say, so what…
>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
>> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>> helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>>  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>>  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>>  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
 system, namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
 iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
 If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
 to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
 mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
 to make simpler, to add features.
 My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
 notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
 or easily usable.
 It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
 that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
 iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
 to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
 way round.
 Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
 There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
 rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
 good.
 I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
 losing something that could and did change the world for us.
 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

That is one area Android does excel.  The customizability is nice especially 
with things being so open but the fighting with the accessibility tools and 
instability just ain’t worth the openness.  Although, Victor and the rest of 
the talkback team are definitely heading in the right direction.  It’s still 
years behind apple but maybe someday it will be a viable option.

I do like the off switches apple puts in though, that’s a great point.

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:59 PM, Blee Blat  wrote:
> 
> I actually think Apple does better than the alternatives for accessibility. I 
> don't have a clue what to do with  a lot of the new features and user 
> interface changes. But there's an on / off switch for everything. If I ever 
> find a use for these features I don't understand, then I can re-enable them. 
> Just use what you like. These devices are trying to be made usable for what 
> they believe to be the common user. I'm not that so I will not complain if I 
> don't like the way something works. I'll just tweak things to work in a sane 
> way and enjoy the things that are working.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
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> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn 
- you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Blee Blat]

I actually think Apple does better than the alternatives for accessibility. I 
don't have a clue what to do with  a lot of the new features and user interface 
changes. But there's an on / off switch for everything. If I ever find a use 
for these features I don't understand, then I can re-enable them. Just use what 
you like. These devices are trying to be made usable for what they believe to 
be the common user. I'm not that so I will not complain if I don't like the way 
something works. I'll just tweak things to work in a sane way and enjoy the 
things that are working.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn 
- you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

Yes, I’m a huge gun collector and fire arms enthusiast.  Hazards of being 
raised by a Marine.  I like blowing things up and shooting inanimate objects.  
Phones that don’t behave are fun, so are propane tanks. Lol but off topic so 
I’ll stop here.

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:51 PM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
> 
> Firing range??
> LOL
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:44, Scott Granados  > wrote:
> 
>> Cheree, you’re not going anywhere.  Even if you don’t like the change in 
>> mail.  If you think that’s tricky try using Android.  Android is a joke of 
>> an operating system in comparison.  If for example you want to use the web 
>> or expect stability, expect to get your security patched and updates and 
>> even expect  consistent experience then you’ll just hate android.
>> 
>> Here’s a practical example.  T-Mobile had a problem in IOS 10, it took them 
>> about 48 hours to push an update to all the phones and correct their 
>> problem.  If this was the google world the update would be pushed to phones 
>> based on each individual vendor’s timeline, which in the case of Samsung for 
>> example may have taken months.  Samsung has been as much as a year out of 
>> date in releasing updates of the OS.
>> 
>> Don’t even get me started on windows and that after thought of an screen 
>> reader situation.
>> 
>> I had such a bad experience with a Galaxy phone i actually took it to the 
>> firing range and put a 308 round through the phone.  It rebooted one to many 
>> times during a phone interview to live.;)
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
>>> namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>>> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
>>> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to 
>>> be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail 
>>> issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make 
>>> simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
>>> easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
>>> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  
>>> It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the 
>>> more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
>>> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
>>> something that could and did change the world for us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
 much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
 
 When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
 same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
 activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, 
 single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. 
 Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. 
 Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all 
 messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between 
 threads, threads and individual messages which do not belong to threads, 
 and individual messages. In other words, the same as single-finger 
 horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
 
 If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must 
 be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical 
 flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all 
 the messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that 
 I have become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few 
 hours of frustration to become used to this new system.
 
 I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for 
 iOS and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen 
 and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
 
 David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
 Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
 M

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Cheree Heppe]

Firing range??
LOL


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:44, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Cheree, you’re not going anywhere.  Even if you don’t like the change in 
> mail.  If you think that’s tricky try using Android.  Android is a joke of an 
> operating system in comparison.  If for example you want to use the web or 
> expect stability, expect to get your security patched and updates and even 
> expect  consistent experience then you’ll just hate android.
> 
> Here’s a practical example.  T-Mobile had a problem in IOS 10, it took them 
> about 48 hours to push an update to all the phones and correct their problem. 
>  If this was the google world the update would be pushed to phones based on 
> each individual vendor’s timeline, which in the case of Samsung for example 
> may have taken months.  Samsung has been as much as a year out of date in 
> releasing updates of the OS.
> 
> Don’t even get me started on windows and that after thought of an screen 
> reader situation.
> 
> I had such a bad experience with a Galaxy phone i actually took it to the 
> firing range and put a 308 round through the phone.  It rebooted one to many 
> times during a phone interview to live.;)
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
>> 
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
>> namely OS.
>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
>> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to 
>> be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail 
>> issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make 
>> simpler, to add features.
>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
>> easily usable.
>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
>> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It 
>> is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more 
>> modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
>> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
>> something that could and did change the world for us.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>> 
>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, 
>>> single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. 
>>> Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. 
>>> Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all 
>>> messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between 
>>> threads, threads and individual messages which do not belong to threads, 
>>> and individual messages. In other words, the same as single-finger 
>>> horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>>> 
>>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must 
>>> be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical 
>>> flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all 
>>> the messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I 
>>> have become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few 
>>> hours of frustration to become used to this new system.
>>> 
>>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
>>> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and 
>>> want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>>> 
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton  wrote:
 
 message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
 longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have 
 to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
 thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message 
 in the thread and then have to navigate between messages using the next 
 and pre me

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

Sorry CHeree, you’re on the pipe on this one and dead wrong.

Where are you going to go, to the fragmented world of android?

Use the different finger move and progress forward.  I was unhappy until I read 
David’s response with some good detailed usage tips and it’s smoothed out a 
lot.  Use android for a day though that will show you the error of your ways.

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:47 PM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
> 
> That's nonsense.
> I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
> Apple claims universal design.
> When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't about 
> somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
> Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have quoted, or 
> the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles and weaving 
> baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
> Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not change for 
> its own sake.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock  > wrote:
> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>> nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>> pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer … 
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>> continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
>> updates, and just had to say, so what…
>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
>> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>> helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>>  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>>  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>>  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>>> 
>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
 system, namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
 iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
 If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
 to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
 mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
 to make simpler, to add features.
 My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
 notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
 or easily usable.
 It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
 that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
 iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
 to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
 way round.
 Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
 There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
 rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
 good.
 I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
 losing something that could and did change the world for us.
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >>> 
 >> wrote:
 
> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
> 
> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different.

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Cheree Heppe]

That's nonsense.
I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
Apple claims universal design.
When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't about 
somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have quoted, or 
the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles and weaving 
baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not change for its 
own sake.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock  
> wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
> nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously pay 
> more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer … 
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
> continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
> updates, and just had to say, so what…
> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He didn’t 
> know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me 
> a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>>  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>> Applevis.
>> 
>>  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>> sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>>> system, namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>>> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>>> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>>> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>>> to make simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>>> or easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
>>> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>>> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
>>> way round.
>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
>>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
>>> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
 looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
 
 When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
 the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
 thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
 view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
 messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
 message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
 deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
 moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
 belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
 as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
 
 If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
 must be expande

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[E.T.]

   You tell it to the universe. We are using a product that is 
mainstream and for the most part accessible. Please tell us what other 
company building mainstream products has better accessibility.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

No.
Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
not progress.
Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
marketing issue.
Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com>> wrote:


  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.

  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
Applevis.

  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
but it sure outruns Windows.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com 

On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
own good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
losing something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.

If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to this new system, I
really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become used
to this new system.

I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps
for iOS and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love
touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 

Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton mailto:philh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:


message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can
no longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead
I have to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of
messages in a thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into
the first message in the thread and then have to navigate between
messages using the next and pre message buttons. What a screw up this
is! is 3 finger flicking f

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a prostate 
exam from Captain Hook.



> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
> wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
> nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously pay 
> more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer … 
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
> continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
> updates, and just had to say, so what…
> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He didn’t 
> know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me 
> a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>>  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>> Applevis.
>> 
>>  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>> sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>>> system, namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>>> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>>> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>>> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>>> to make simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>>> or easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
>>> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>>> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
>>> way round.
>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
>>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
>>> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
 looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
 
 When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
 the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
 thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
 view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
 messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
 message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
 deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
 moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
 belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
 as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
 
 If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
 must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
 vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
 unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
 non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to this new system, I
 really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become used
 to this new system.
 
 I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps
 for iOS and Mac, that we will see a full 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

Cheree, you’re not going anywhere.  Even if you don’t like the change in mail.  
If you think that’s tricky try using Android.  Android is a joke of an 
operating system in comparison.  If for example you want to use the web or 
expect stability, expect to get your security patched and updates and even 
expect  consistent experience then you’ll just hate android.

Here’s a practical example.  T-Mobile had a problem in IOS 10, it took them 
about 48 hours to push an update to all the phones and correct their problem.  
If this was the google world the update would be pushed to phones based on each 
individual vendor’s timeline, which in the case of Samsung for example may have 
taken months.  Samsung has been as much as a year out of date in releasing 
updates of the OS.

Don’t even get me started on windows and that after thought of an screen reader 
situation.

I had such a bad experience with a Galaxy phone i actually took it to the 
firing range and put a 308 round through the phone.  It rebooted one to many 
times during a phone interview to live.;)

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
> 
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined functionality, 
> such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to be 
> forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail issue 
> mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make simpler, 
> to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
> easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It 
> is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more 
> modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
> something that could and did change the world for us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  > wrote:
> 
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>> 
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger 
>> vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger 
>> horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. Double-tap on the 
>> delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the 
>> thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and 
>> individual messages which do not belong to threads, and individual messages. 
>> In other words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message 
>> list screen.
>> 
>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
>> expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
>> expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the 
>> messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
>> become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of 
>> frustration to become used to this new system.
>> 
>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
>> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and 
>> want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton > > wrote:
>> 
>>> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
>>> longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have 
>>> to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
>>> thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in 
>>> the thread and then have to navigate between messages using the next and 
>>> pre message buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from 
>>> message to message gone in ios10?
>>> Also how a

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[michael babcock]

Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
nothing honestly.
Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
business and the people who do like there products and services obviously pay 
more.
What is a Mac in most cases?
A PC…
A Personal Computer … 
But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
continue paying for them.
I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
updates, and just had to say, so what…
Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
#choices.
And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He didn’t 
know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me a 
lot.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Best.

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is what 
> you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
> 
>   Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
> Applevis.
> 
>   How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
> sure outruns Windows.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>> system, namely OS.
>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>> to make simpler, to add features.
>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>> or easily usable.
>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
>> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
>> way round.
>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
>> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
>>> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>> 
>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
>>> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
>>> thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
>>> view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
>>> messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
>>> message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
>>> deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
>>> moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
>>> belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
>>> as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>>> 
>>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
>>> must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
>>> vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
>>> unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
>>> non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to this new system, I
>>> really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become used
>>> to this new system.
>>> 
>>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps
>>> for iOS and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love
>>> touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>>> 
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Cheree Heppe]

No.
Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is not 
progress.
Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a 
marketing issue.
Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is what 
> you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
> 
>   Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
> Applevis.
> 
>   How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
> sure outruns Windows.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>> system, namely OS.
>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>> to make simpler, to add features.
>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>> or easily usable.
>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
>> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
>> way round.
>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
>> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
>>> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>> 
>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
>>> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
>>> thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
>>> view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
>>> messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
>>> message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
>>> deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
>>> moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
>>> belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
>>> as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>>> 
>>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
>>> must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
>>> vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
>>> unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
>>> non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to this new system, I
>>> really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become used
>>> to this new system.
>>> 
>>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps
>>> for iOS and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love
>>> touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>>> 
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton >> > wrote:
>>> 
 message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can
 no longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead
 I have to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of
 messages in a thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into
 the first message in the thread and then have to navigate between
 messages using the next and pre message buttons. What a screw up this
 is! is 3 finger flicking from message to message gone in ios10?
 Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are
 there some settings that need tweaking?
 
 
 --
 The fol

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[E.T.]

   Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.


   Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
Applevis.


   How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system 
but it sure outruns Windows.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
losing something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.

If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to this new system, I
really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become used
to this new system.

I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps
for iOS and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love
touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton mailto:philh...@gmail.com>> wrote:


message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can
no longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead
I have to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of
messages in a thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into
the first message in the thread and then have to navigate between
messages using the next and pre message buttons. What a screw up this
is! is 3 finger flicking from message to message gone in ios10?
Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are
there some settings that need tweaking?


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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

Holy crap, talk about the pot calling the kettle black.  YOu’re one to talk 
about disrespect inmate.


> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland  
> wrote:
> 
> Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention 
> downright insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you 
> something.  We devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did 
> so in iOS 9, and I even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  Trust 
> me.  I was on the 10 beta from June 30th, when it was announced at WWDC until 
> now.  I've ever since had at least one of my devices on 10.
>  
> I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours 
> to the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no 
> sollution was ever made.  So don't be putting the blame on us devs, OK?  
> We've done our damdest! to make this new version of OSX, TVOS, Watch OS, and 
> iOS as  wonderful as possible.  The thing is, once we make the bug reports 
> through the bugreporter bug tracker, we really don't then have much of a say 
> past that point.  If Apple fixes it, great, if not, well, we've done our 
> parts by reporting it.
>  
> Now, if us devs just saw the bug and ignored it, then therefore it was 
> released buggy, then, I'd totally give this message to you, but, hunttauhh.  
> I'm not lettin' you have this.  I'm sorry.  Us devs deserve more credit, and 
> respect!  We really, really really did try!
>  
> Can another person on this list who's a dev and paid the 99 for the iOS 10 
> cycle please speak up and advocate for us all here as well?  This is just 
> wrong!
> ---
> Christopher Gilland
> JAWS Certified, 2016.
> Training Instructor.
>  
> i...@gillandmarketing.com <mailto:i...@gillandmarketing.com>
> Phone: (704) 256-8010.
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Cheree Heppe <mailto:che...@dogsc4me.com>
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>> 
>> You developers and designers, changers and alter era can flick yourselves 
>> into you-know-where regarding this change to mail on iOS.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden > <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>> 
>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, 
>>> single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. 
>>> Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. 
>>> Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all 
>>> messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between 
>>> threads, threads and individual messages which do not belong to threads, 
>>> and individual messages. In other words, the same as single-finger 
>>> horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>>> 
>>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must 
>>> be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical 
>>> flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all 
>>> the messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I 
>>> have become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few 
>>> hours of frustration to become used to this new system.
>>> 
>>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
>>> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and 
>>> want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>>> 
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com <mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton >> <mailto:philh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
>>>> longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have 
>>>> to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
>>>

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention downright 
insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you something.  We 
devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did so in iOS 9, and I 
even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  Trust me.  I was on the 10 
beta from June 30th, when it was announced at WWDC until now.  I've ever since 
had at least one of my devices on 10.

I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours to 
the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no sollution 
was ever made.  So don't be putting the blame on us devs, OK?  We've done our 
damdest! to make this new version of OSX, TVOS, Watch OS, and iOS as  wonderful 
as possible.  The thing is, once we make the bug reports through the 
bugreporter bug tracker, we really don't then have much of a say past that 
point.  If Apple fixes it, great, if not, well, we've done our parts by 
reporting it.

Now, if us devs just saw the bug and ignored it, then therefore it was released 
buggy, then, I'd totally give this message to you, but, hunttauhh.  I'm not 
lettin' you have this.  I'm sorry.  Us devs deserve more credit, and respect!  
We really, really really did try!

Can another person on this list who's a dev and paid the 99 for the iOS 10 
cycle please speak up and advocate for us all here as well?  This is just wrong!
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

i...@gillandmarketing.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Cheree Heppe 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:08 PM
  Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes


  You developers and designers, changers and alter era can flick yourselves 
into you-know-where regarding this change to mail on iOS.



  Sent from my iPhone

  On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.


When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger 
vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger 
horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. Double-tap on the delete 
button at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. 
Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and individual 
messages which do not belong to threads, and individual messages. In other 
words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.


If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must 
be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the messages 
in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have become used 
to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to 
become used to this new system.


I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and want 
my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton  wrote:


  message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to 
use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a thread 
no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in the thread 
and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre message 
buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message to message 
gone in ios10?
  Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there 
some settings that need tweaking?


  -- 
  The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
Visionaries list.

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if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

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  http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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  To unsubscribe from this group a

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

It’s also counter productive to stagnate.

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
> 
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined functionality, 
> such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to be 
> forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail issue 
> mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make simpler, 
> to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
> easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It 
> is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more 
> modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
> something that could and did change the world for us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  > wrote:
> 
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>> 
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger 
>> vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger 
>> horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. Double-tap on the 
>> delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the 
>> thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and 
>> individual messages which do not belong to threads, and individual messages. 
>> In other words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message 
>> list screen.
>> 
>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
>> expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
>> expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the 
>> messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
>> become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of 
>> frustration to become used to this new system.
>> 
>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
>> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and 
>> want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton > > wrote:
>> 
>>> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
>>> longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have 
>>> to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
>>> thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in 
>>> the thread and then have to navigate between messages using the next and 
>>> pre message buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from 
>>> message to message gone in ios10?
>>> Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
>>> settings that need tweaking?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>> 
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisio

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

My head hurts!  LOL!
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

i...@gillandmarketing.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
  - Original Message - 
  From: David Chittenden 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 6:27 PM
  Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes


  Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.


  When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the same 
as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to activate 
it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger vertical 
flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks 
read through the specific message. Double-tap on the delete button at the 
bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger 
horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and individual messages which 
do not belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same as 
single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.


  If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the messages 
in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have become used 
to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to 
become used to this new system.


  I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and want 
my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

  David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
  Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
  Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
  Sent from my iPhone

  On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton  wrote:


message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to 
use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a thread 
no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in the thread 
and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre message 
buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message to message 
gone in ios10?
Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
settings that need tweaking?


-- 
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you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

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Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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list.
   
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Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Qu

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Cheree Heppe]

You developers and designers, changers and alter era can flick yourselves into 
you-know-where regarding this change to mail on iOS.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
> 
> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the same 
> as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger 
> vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger 
> horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. Double-tap on the 
> delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. 
> Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and individual 
> messages which do not belong to threads, and individual messages. In other 
> words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
> 
> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
> expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
> expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the 
> messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
> become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of 
> frustration to become used to this new system.
> 
> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and want 
> my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton  wrote:
>> 
>> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
>> longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to 
>> use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
>> thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in 
>> the thread and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre 
>> message buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message 
>> to message gone in ios10?
>> Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
>> settings that need tweaking?
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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list.

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Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn 
- you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

Th

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Cheree Heppe]

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined functionality, 
such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among the 
public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to be 
forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail issue 
mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make simpler, to 
add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release notes 
guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or easily 
usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It is 
my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more modern, 
more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
> 
> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the same 
> as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger 
> vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger 
> horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. Double-tap on the 
> delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. 
> Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and individual 
> messages which do not belong to threads, and individual messages. In other 
> words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
> 
> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
> expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
> expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the 
> messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
> become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of 
> frustration to become used to this new system.
> 
> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and want 
> my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton  wrote:
>> 
>> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
>> longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to 
>> use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
>> thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in 
>> the thread and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre 
>> message buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message 
>> to message gone in ios10?
>> Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
>> settings that need tweaking?
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Jonathan C. Cohn]

You can also do actions on individual messages in thread view by flicking left 
till you hear your message n of y and about clicking on that.

Best wishes,

Jonathan Cohn 

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:57 PM, Helga Schreiber  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi all! How are you all?  I was playing  with the mail app with IOS 10,adn I 
> find   away to read a thread of messages. You find the thread you want tto 
> read, then flick or swipe down adn you wil find archive, mark all, delete, 
> expand thread, ten just double tap on expand thread,and you will be able to 
> read the email messages like the Mac shows it. And when you want to collapse 
> thread, you just need to go to the beginning, and flick down on thread 
> messages,adn yo wil find collapse thread, and that wil return to the way it 
> was before. It took me a while to figure it out. Hope this ehlps. I look 
> forward in hearing from you soon. Thanks and God bless!
> 
>   Helga Schreiber 
> Group Moderator  
>  
>   for the IPad help for the blind 
>  
> ipadhelpfortheblind+subscr...@groups.io  
> 
> Member of National Federation of the Blind and Florida Association of Blind 
> Students.
> Member of the International Networkers Team (INT).
> Independent Entrepreneur of the Company 4Life Research.
> Phone:  (561) 706-5950 
> Email: helga.schreibe...@gmail.com 
> Skype: helga.schreiber26 
> 4Life Website: http://helgaschreiber.my4life.com/1/default.aspx 
> INT Website: http://int4life.com/ 
> 
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever 
> believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 
> Sent from my iPhone 6S running IOS 10
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:27 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
>> 
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>> 
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger 
>> vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger 
>> horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. Double-tap on the 
>> delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the 
>> thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and 
>> individual messages which do not belong to threads, and individual messages. 
>> In other words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message 
>> list screen.
>> 
>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
>> expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
>> expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the 
>> messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
>> become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of 
>> frustration to become used to this new system.
>> 
>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
>> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and 
>> want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton  wrote:
>>> 
>>> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
>>> longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have 
>>> to use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
>>> thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in 
>>> the thread and then have to navigate between messages using the next and 
>>> pre message buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from 
>>> message to message gone in ios10?
>>> Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
>>> settings that need tweaking?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Helga Schreiber]

Hi all! How are you all?  I was playing  with the mail app with IOS 10,adn I 
find   away to read a thread of messages. You find the thread you want tto 
read, then flick or swipe down adn you wil find archive, mark all, delete, 
expand thread, ten just double tap on expand thread,and you will be able to 
read the email messages like the Mac shows it. And when you want to collapse 
thread, you just need to go to the beginning, and flick down on thread 
messages,adn yo wil find collapse thread, and that wil return to the way it was 
before. It took me a while to figure it out. Hope this ehlps. I look forward in 
hearing from you soon. Thanks and God bless!

  Helga Schreiber 
Group Moderator  
 
  for the IPad help for the blind 
 
ipadhelpfortheblind+subscr...@groups.io  

Member of National Federation of the Blind and Florida Association of Blind 
Students.
Member of the International Networkers Team (INT).
Independent Entrepreneur of the Company 4Life Research.
Phone:  (561) 706-5950 
Email: helga.schreibe...@gmail.com 
Skype: helga.schreiber26 
4Life Website: http://helgaschreiber.my4life.com/1/default.aspx 
INT Website: http://int4life.com/ 

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever 
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 
Sent from my iPhone 6S running IOS 10

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:27 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
> 
> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the same 
> as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger 
> vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger 
> horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. Double-tap on the 
> delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. 
> Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and individual 
> messages which do not belong to threads, and individual messages. In other 
> words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
> 
> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
> expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
> expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the 
> messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
> become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of 
> frustration to become used to this new system.
> 
> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and want 
> my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton  wrote:
>> 
>> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
>> longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to 
>> use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
>> thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in 
>> the thread and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre 
>> message buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message 
>> to message gone in ios10?
>> Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
>> settings that need tweaking?
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[David Chittenden]

Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks much 
more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the same 
as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to activate 
it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger vertical 
flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks 
read through the specific message. Double-tap on the delete button at the 
bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger 
horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and individual messages which 
do not belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same as 
single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.

If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the messages 
in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have become used 
to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to 
become used to this new system.

I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS and 
Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and want my 
touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton  wrote:
> 
> message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no 
> longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to 
> use the “pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a 
> thread no longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in 
> the thread and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre 
> message buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message 
> to message gone in ios10?
> Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
> settings that need tweaking?
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[jaan ali]

Hi, the delete all button is also gone, that's why am using the outlook mail 
instead of the regular mail app


Get Outlook for iOS




On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 6:09 PM -0400, "Phil Halton" 
mailto:philh...@gmail.com>> wrote:

message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no longer 
3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to use the 
“pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a thread no 
longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in the thread 
and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre message 
buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message to message 
gone in ios10?
Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
settings that need tweaking?


--
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feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn 
- you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[E.T.]

Phil,
   If you have not read this article on Applevis yet, please do. Link 
follows.




From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/15/2016 3:09 PM, Phil Halton wrote:

message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no longer 
3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to use the 
“pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a thread no 
longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in the thread 
and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre message 
buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message to message 
gone in ios10?
Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
settings that need tweaking?




--
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list.

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feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn 
- you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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<>

IOS10 Mail app changes

[Phil Halton]

message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no longer 
3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to use the 
“pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a thread no 
longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in the thread 
and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre message 
buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message to message 
gone in ios10?
Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
settings that need tweaking?
 

-- 
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list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn 
- you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
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