Re: [MapHist] ISHM offer regarding MapHist
This is a MapHist list message. This list will close soon. Please continue the discussions at the MapHist Forum: http://www.maphist.nl/forum o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Zsolt, you have done the right thing. BRAVI! If Peter goes on changing the list into forum, it is not nice to make something in competition with him and to split the Maphist world. I will go where the stream of Maphist runs. vladimiro Il giorno 04/gen/2012, alle ore 22.49, Zsolt Török ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message. This list will close soon. Please continue the discussions at the MapHist Forum: http://www.maphist.nl/forum o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear MapHisters, You may be wondering what happened to the idea that the International Society for the History of the Map (ISHM) might be able to help in respect of the future of MapHist. Just to let you know that regretfully, despite our earlier announcement and the hard work of our volunteers to develop such a free and open forum to be hosted on new ISHM website,in the event a workable arrangement agreeble to all could not be reached. As Peter van der Krogt has indicated, he has decided to continue and we wish him every success in the coming years with his new forum. ___ The International Society for the History of the Map ishm.cont...@gmail.com ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] List versus Forum
This is a MapHist list message. This list will close soon. Please continue the discussions at the MapHist Forum: http://www.maphist.nl/forum o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Sorin, of course we may be on touch in any moment we like, privately, using our email address. This invitation is addressed, of course, to all those splendid friends that have accompanied me in the last several years. In any case, whatever would be our choice we always are Maphists. I express all my gratitude to Peter for the wonderful job he has done. vladimiro vladimir@iuavit Il giorno 05/gen/2012, alle ore 00.36, Sorin Fortiu ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message. This list will close soon. Please continue the discussions at the MapHist Forum: http://www.maphist.nl/forum o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Quite relevant; in the new MapHist Forum from http://www.maphist.nl/forum are only 3 posts (from the moment it was opened) and on the old List I received 4 messages only in the last hour! Sorin Fortiu Timisoara, Banat http://www.banat.ro/academica.htm P.S. Personally, I am a subscriber at 4 mailing lists (3 of them due the profession and one for hobby; one of them ?not MapHist- has more then 50 messages each day) and I do not watch any forum. What I did not understand in the first place is why the List was dropped for a Forum? It seams it has nothing to do with technical possibilities (Google is always an alternative for this) but with ... (I realize now that one of the posts from the Forum -never anounced on the List- is quite relevant for the answer!) Anyhow, Thank You all (to many to be mentioned by name!) for helping me in the past! Your help was VERY much appreciated (by someone who wants to do some research but do not have access to the documents he needs). I am sure that on a Forum I would never received the level of help I received on the List. But I learned (long time a go!) that everything good in life comes to an end ... ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Prussian town location
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + According to Google map, the distance from Bystrzec to Miniszek is 177 Km but the information supplied by Rich Boardman tell us a different story as Weisshof (old name of Bystrzec) is in the territory of the post of Mischke (old name of Mniszek). It is very hard to believe that the post of Mischke covered such a wide territory. I fear something is wrong in the identification. vladimiro Il giorno 21/dic/2011, alle ore 22.32, Christos Nüssli ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Le 21.12.2011 22:09, Boardman, Richard a écrit : This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Hi, I’m trying to locate a very small town that was in West Prussia around the turn of the last century. It’s listed in Ritter’s with the usual administrative districts, etc. but I’ve been unable to find it on any map, including the 1:100k map series of Germany from that time period. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Here’s the information I have: WEISSHOF VILLAGE/HAMLET IN WEST PRUSSIA LANDKREIS: GRAUDENZ POST: MISCHKE 263 INHABITANTS Thanks. Rich Boardman Free Library of Philadelphia Today Bystrzec http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystrzec 170 inhabitants. Mischke = Mniszek Best regards _ Christos Nüssli * Europe Maps - http://www.euratlas.org ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Facsimile Edition of Waldseemuller Maps
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Great news! It is only hardly understandable the reason of reproducing the map at just slightly smaller than full size. So it would be impossible to take measures from the reproduction (not a facsimile at all) and to study from a metric point of view unless to scale them. I wonder why they did not decide to make a true facsimile. vladimiro Il giorno 06/dic/2011, alle ore 19.18, Thomas Greenleaf ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I received the following response from John Hessler and Chet Van Duzer after contacting John Hessler at the Library of Congress directly: Thomas, It is true that the Library of Congress, in partnership with Levenger Press, is producing a facsimile edition of the 1507 and 1516 World Maps by Martin Waldseemuller. The book, and the portfolio containing the facsimiles, include monograph length introductions to each map and sheet by sheet commentaries by John Hessler and Chet Van Duzer. Both Chet and I are currently Scholars in Residence at the John W. Kluge Center at the Library of Congress. This book concentrates on the two world maps and presents new research on the text found on them, on the their geographic sources, and on the printing and making of the woodblocks. The facsimiles of the 1507 and 1516 maps will be reproduced in color and at just slightly smaller than full size (remember these are very large walls maps measuring nearly 8 ft x 4.5 ft when put together). The facsimiles will come in a portfolio in the back of the book so they can be removed and laid out like a wall map should be. We are finishing up the commentaries this month and the book will be available in late summer/early fall 2012. John Hessler Kluge Fellow in Residence John W. Kluge Center Library of Congress Chet Van Duzer Kislak Fellow John W. Kluge Center Library of Congress ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Use of sheet glass
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, after a great deal of replies and hints and suggestions, I still wonder: what does mapamundo em vidro grande mean? From the linguistic point of view might em vidro grande means covered with a glass (under a glass, em=under)? or the only likely meaning is made on glass (em=on)? Is there any scholar of portuguese language among us who may give such a reply? Or to whom we may ask? I do believe that we have to know the recurrence of em in various texts and contexts of that period. This is a path parallel to the other: the availability of great format of sheet of glass in that period. vladimiro Il giorno 26/nov/2011, alle ore 21.53, Joel Kovarsky ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + On 11/26/2011 10:32 AM, George Carhart wrote: I do not think that a sheet of blown glass off the size suggested was ever produced in the mid 16th century. I do not have the following book, but it might be of some relevance here: Glass: A World History by MacFarlane and Martin, 2002, U. Chicago Press: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/G/bo3621371.html . ISBN: 9780226500287. I was able to scan the index via Amazon, but could not quickly spot entries dealing with glass used in framing works of art. The table of contents is also online, and there are several entries pertaining to glass blowing, but I do not know if anything as specific as George's remark is indicated within the book. Joel Kovarsky ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Use of sheet glass
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I know that one of the reason for browning sheets of paper in maps and globes was the varnish used just to protect them. I suppose that following the taste of painting the use of glass was not common at all during Renaissance and Enlightenment. Why cover a map with a glass with the risk of creating problems of readability, light reflection and so on. I found a payment, dated September 1789, for four wooden gilded frames to embellish some maps of the Kingdom of Naples, just printed and presented to His Majesty and the Queen in the Royal Palace of Caserta. While a great amount of money was spent for that rich frames, their is no mention to any glass. BTW bank payments indicate any even small amount of money delivered and are very detailed in the description of the goods. vladimiro Il giorno 26/nov/2011, alle ore 01.10, Dyallen2 ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + The discussion of the Portuguese map possibly covered with glass has taken an interesting turn, and I would like to refocus it slightly on the production and use of sheet glass to protect maps and other works of art. Does anyone know of any examples of maps that were definitely framed with glass during the Renaissance or the seventeenth century? I am no expert in the technology of glass production, but I have the impression that large sheets of glass were difficult and expensive to produce, and were not used routinely to protect works of art prior to the end of the nineteenth century. David Allen Stony Brook University (retired) ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] big [terrestrial] globe made of glass/crystal, or Portuguese scholarship...
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Mr. (Mrs.?) as1510183, it is a matter of politeness to sign message and it is matter of competence to give sound reply to questions posed by Maphists. You may clearly explain to the whole list If and where Dr. Angelo Cattaneo failed. We all are here to learn more and to use the other's competence to improve our understanding on maps. I am very eager to read a serious reply of yours on the question posed by Dr. Cattaneo, even with a lough but . . . please, express your point of view in such a way as to allow easy and accurate interpretation to all of us. vladimiro Il giorno 24/nov/2011, alle ore 15.38, as1510183 ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + This scholar Angelo Cattaneo is wonderful, and he is famous in Maphist for his intelligent questions (since the first ones that he made, the first time that he had an intervention, many years ago...). The Portuguese (with their lots of public money...) invented him... gave him his PhD... and paid him (for so many years now...) to have him shown as a substitute of the Portuguese historian of Cartography, Alfredo Pinheiro Marques (against whom the censorship continues... silenced and persecuted in his own country, for so many years now...), but until today -- for so many years now...! -- this excellent scholar, this true expert of Portuguese things, this Italian Mr. Angelo Cattaneo, is not yet able to understand the meaning of the most obvious things in Portuguese language... Now he does not understand (and he asks Maphist for...) the meaning of the Portuguese expression mapamundo em vidro grande referring to the map that the Jesuits were sending in 1554 to the Japanese daimyo of Bungo (Oita)... He thinks that it was a map MADE OF glass... Very funny... Portuguese (Italian) scholarship... At 2011/11/24, 11:22, Angelo Cattaneo wrote: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Colleagues, While looking at a Portuguese1554 inventory listing objects to be dispatched to Japan from Goa, I found a reference to a mapamundo em vidro grande . It is not simple to translate this reference. It could be a big [terrestrial] globe made of glass [crystal]. Of course, it is possible to provide other interpretations. I do not know of any other reference to these kind of objects, apart from the famous crystal [celestial] sphere made by Mercator for Charles V (the terrestrial one was made of wood). Does anybody know any such reference? Is there any such big [terrestrial] globe made of glass / crystal or big [terrestrial] map made of glass / crystal extant in either public or private collections? Thanks and my best, Angelo Cattaneo ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] FW: Kick off of the Philadelphia Map Society
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Tony, please, before getting to completion the annual Chronicle in Imago Mundi have a look at the last number of the Newsletter (no. 41, September 2011) by the BIMCC (Brussel International Map Collector Circle), where the Honorary President of the Circle Wulf Bodenstein announces the birth, reviews the publications and lists the activities of the Italian Map Collector Society named after Roberto Almagià and titled Associazione Italiana Collezionisti di Cartografia Antica. The Associazione was founded by seven Italian Map Collectors* who joined in Pavia in a frozen and wet evening of March 2006. As you may detect from the activities and the number of publications (four catalogues of exhibitions and a Cartobibliographical volume devoted to Benedetto Marzolla, 236 pages) it is among the most lively Map Societies: five meetings, each devoted to a chosen theme, with conferences, exhibitions and catalogues. The meeting in 2010 was dedicated to the Decorative Apparatus in cartography and had among the speakers Peter Barber, Marica Milanesi and Lucia Nuti. Our last activity has been to arrange an exhibition, with catalog, on 59 maps of Italy since 1482 to 1861 in the occasion of the 150th Anniversary of the Italian Unification (Milan, April 7th - May 7th and Caserta, September 14th - 2nd October). At the present, since June 2010, I am the President of the Associazione, and it is certainly my fault to have not paid the due attention to inform the Community of its birth and its activities. The presentation (4 pages !) by Wulf Bodenstein makes justice of this horrible amnesia. Unfortunately, meetings and publications are in Italian and I know - very sadly - that a lot of people and scholars too ignore Italian and are not able even to read it. It is really a pity. vladimiro *the founders are, in alphabetical order: Giorgio Aliprandi (Milano), Lucio Clementi (Ancona), Enzo Fusari (Macerata), Emiiio Moreschi (Bergamo), Laura Tassi (Milano), Vladimiro Valerio (Napoli), Antonio Volpini (Corridonia, Macerata) and the Notaio Roberto Borri (Pavia), who could not sign being the Officer who registered the Act. Il giorno 20/ott/2011, alle ore 10.31, Tony Campbell ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I am sure many will welcome the Philadelphia Map Society as the latest addition to the growing body of such groups around the world. JB's forwarded message referred to the Society's 'inaugural year'. Perhaps I have missed the announcement, but I had not previously heard of this development. Nor, it seems, were the details forwarded to James Speed Hensinger for his comprehensive list of 'Map Societies Around the World': http://www.maphist.nl/mapsoc/index.html I do hope that all those who subscribe to this list will make a point of alerting us to significant developments of this sort. Too often, we learn from other sources. Sometimes, for reasons I cannot understand, matters of historical interest have to be forwarded to us from, for example, Maps-L. The obvious solution is for such announcements to be sent to all the relevant lists. I will, as usual, be adding a note about this to the annual 'Chronicle' in Imago Mundi. Though I shall need to have the date of its foundation, as will James Speed Hensinger. Anyway, a warm welcome to our Philadelphia colleagues. Tony Campbell i...@tonycampbell.info ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] The impossible map from L’Histoire d’Angleterre
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Daniel and all, just one short, brief, remark. Before Gaspard Monge published his fundamental treatise Géometrie Descriptive in 1799 (an VII of Republican Calendar) the method of orthogonal projections were used almost all over the world since the first millennium Before our Era. Monge put together and gave a geometrical structure, founded on principles, to all the disseminated pieces of orthographic representations. It means that well before Monge we may found perfect orthogonal projections (see Durer in 1525, also Piero della Francesca in 1475 c. and . . . so on back) even if they are not so defined or claimed! The way in which the human mind may reach goals and scientific conquests are quite different. Philosophically speaking, we may reach the truth in several ways. with sympathy vladimiro Il giorno 29/set/2011, alle ore 08.40, Daniel Strebe ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Colleagues: I would appreciate help from those with this publication in their collection: “L’Histoire d’Angleterre”, Paul de Rapin-Thoyras, 1724 and later with Volume XI, p. 121, containing the map titled, “Carte Generale des Royaumes Etats Domaines, que les Rois La Couronne de la Grande-Bretagne ont Possédez ou Possédent en Europe en Afrique en Amerique” I am studying this map, stated by the sell to have been published circa 1736. The problem is that the map is impossible. I bought the map as a curiosity because it is drafted on a conic projection, which were rarely used at the time. When I received the map I wanted to ascertain which specific conic it is. I am bemused to report that, with a high degree of confidence, the map is drafted on a Lambert conformal conic with standard parallel of 75°. The problem with this assessment is that the projection and the mathematical principles that motivate it were supposedly unknown in 1736. The projection, the mathematics for it, and the entire mindset that motivates it, were published by Johannes Heinrich Lambert in 1772. Lambert’s treatise is considered the seminal work in mathematical cartography. The projection wasn’t supposed to be possible before that publication. My questions: • Does this map exist in editions of “L’Histoire d’Angleterre” prior to 1772? • Does the map look substantially like this? http://mapthematics.com/Downloads/CarteGenerale.png Thanks regards, — daan Strebe ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: Brief Comment Concerning: [MapHist] Marco Polo New World Maps--Authentic
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I agree with what has been stressed by Ben concerning the multiple way to interpret and investigate this documents. I am one of the people involved in this matter who participated in a meeting organized by Tierry Secretan in Washington at the National Geographic Society and the Library of Congress in february 2009 (Ben was among us, of course). I, and all of us, will be very interested in reading the Gunnar's book but I don't see in his message any reference to paleography and language. The documents were inspected from this point of view by Franca and Armando Petrucci who kindly accepted to have a look at the documents (in photographic reproduction, of course) which were supplied by myself in Pisa in March 2009. A part from the necessity to see the original, the Petruccis stated that they were copies of the XIX-XX centuries with some doubt just for one of them. At the same conclusion arrived Prof. Angela Caracciolo of the University of Venice from a linguistic point of view. For that reason the (I dare call) commission stopped working in spite of my observations that whilst the documents might not be original they might have been copy from authentic ancient documents and some evidences from the construction of the drawings (which is one of my field of study) convinced me about that possibility. W'll read Gunnar's book with great interest and attention. vladimiro Il giorno 25/set/2011, alle ore 02.54, B. B. Olshin ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear MapHist-ers: While I respect the diligence of Mr. Thompson in pursuing his studies of theMarco Polo maps (also known as the Rossi maps), I must add that Ibelieve that there is a great deal of investigation to be done. As some of youknow, I have presented on the subject of these maps (at the Society for theHistory of Discoveries conference in Portland, Oregon in 2006), and I havepublished a scholarly article on a selection of these documents: “The Mystery of the ‘Marco Polo’ Maps: AnIntroduction to a Privately-Held Collection of Cartographic Materials Relatingto the Polo Family”, Terrae Incognitae,39 (2007): 1-23 (which Mr. Thompson kindly mentions in his e-mail announcement,below). While I would certainly agree with Mr. Thompson's enthusiasm for this material,he and I might differ in our interpretations, a difference we already had begun to discuss in 2006in Portland. I welcome Mr. Thompson's book, as it will bring these Rossidocuments to a wider audience, but I also ask the audience to understand thatthere is more than one way to interpret the (admittedly very interesting)evidence presented in the maps. Indeed, I believe that we may well be enteringinto an era of some debate on that evidence. I hope that Map Hist-ers will takepart in that debate, as well! -Benjamin B. Olshin On 09/24/11, GunnarThompsondiscovergun...@hotmail.com wrote: This is a MapHist list message (when youhit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear MapHisters: 1) Marco Polo Maps of NewWorld --AuthenticityConfirmed 2) Marco Polo'sDaughters (Discovery of the New World) --New Sourceon Marco Polo Maps of Ancient America (from Lulu.com) --Examples ofmaps mentioned in this posting can be found at www. marcopolovoyages.com,atlanticconference.org,or in the new book This posting is a briefsummary of a five-year research project whose focus was the Rossi Collection ofdocuments relating to Marco Polo and his daughters (Fantina, Bellela, andMoretta). The finding, based of a radiocarbon test and the assessment ofimbedded clues and diagnostic geographical markers(DGMs) is that the Collection consists of authentic documents from the 13th,14th, and 16th centuries. These documents are a Time Capsule of theearly 14th century in Venice--at which time, Marco Polo's daughters sentletters and gave presentations at women's salons in an effort to transform thereputation of their father from being the World's Greatest Liar tobecoming the World's Greatest Traveler. The three sisters succeededin their mission. Copies of their maps and letters were kept in an heirloomtrunk by the Sanseverinus and Rossi Families of Naples; and these documentsserved to reveal Marco's role as a technological spy. The contents of theseauthentic documents will require a complete overhaul of the outdated andmistaken assessments regarding the roles of ancient spies and voyagers whoexplored the Americas many centuries prior to the traditional, Eurocentricheroes of New World discovery. American Discovery was a multiethnic
Re: [MapHist] Looking for a map with a specific kind of reliability diagram
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the
whole list)
o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o +
Dear Dana,
I don't know whether my comments may help you as I am not sure to have properly
understood your request.
This kind of diagram appeared in the 1870's compilation of 1:50.000 scale map
of Italy realized by the Istituto Geografico Militare Italiano using previous
data coming from Neapolitan Staff and direct surveys of Italian Officers.
In a scheme out of the map, in a corner, is printed a diagram very like the one
you show. The diagram shows the covered area, the name of the topographer and
the date of survey.
As soon as I can (I have to digitize one of the sample in my hands) I will send
you (to the list) an image.
Do you think is what you asked?
But the dates of this kind of compilation are hundred years before the ones you
cite!
Ciao
vladimiro
Il giorno 16/set/2011, alle ore 07.58, Vladimiro Valerio ha scritto:
-- Forwarded message --
From: Dana A. Freiburger dafreibur...@wisc.edu
Date: 2011/9/15
Subject: [MapHist] Looking for a map with a specific kind of reliability
diagram
To: Discussion group for map history maphist@geo.uu.nl
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the
whole list)
o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o +
Greetings,
I am looking for a map with a specific kind of reliability diagram.
Please see attached (small, 51 kbytes) jpg file reference image for
the needed diagram. I believe maps of this design date around the
1960s to the 1970s (but not absolutely positive).
Added comments: I am familiar with (and have found many) examples
of reliability diagrams from 1:250,000 Army Map Service maps which
use similar hatchings and letter codes ('A', 'B', etc.) to show an
area's source (hence its reliability). But nothing that uses a set
of dates to show a map's reliability. It may be an obscure kind
of AMS map or some other defense agency; it may not even be from
the USA (which is OK).
Muehrcke shows a line drawing in his Map Use: reading, analysis,
and interpretation books with this kind of coverage diagram, but
does not cite actual maps (see 1998 edition, p. 424). I need to
find an actual map with this kind of reliability diagram (not to
be confused with a coverage diagram).
All hints, details, and possible sources welcome. Many thanks,
Dana
Dana A. Freiburger
Illustrations Editor
History of Cartography Project
470 Science Hall
550 N. Park Street
Madison, WI 53706-1491 U.S.A.
phone: (608) 263-3992
fax: (608) 263-0762
email: hcart-illustrati...@geography.wisc.edu
___
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl
Maphist mailing list
Maphist@geo.uu.nl
http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
ReliabilityDiagram-LR.jpg
___
MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography
hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht.
The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of
the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of
Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for
the views of the author.
List Information: http://www.maphist.nl
Maphist mailing list
Maphist@geo.uu.nl
http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Acknowledging Copyright
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Kit, the short phrase by Dickson will never stop plagiarists and dishonest people to use and abuse other's ideas and writings. It may only offend honest people (used - I remark - in this context!) and not save him from plagiarism. That's what I meant. No legal matter involved either ethics aims or concerns. Of course publishers and author MUST write that kind of sentences in their outputs. vladimiro Il giorno 08/ago/2011, alle ore 07.27, kitthe...@aol.com ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dee and others I imagine that Peter Dickson has seen the light and realises that his closing statement was over the top, see his reply some hours later to the initial criticisms: : I think what I meant to suggest that it was okay to quote from my post with an appropriate citation back to me or share it with others in an appropriate manner with other interested scholars but not to republish it in some other format without my approval or post it as is somewhere without my name as the author. and I think it is only fair that when someone like PD does not simply wrirte an email but shares his ideas, research and theories that such a rider be added. Although 99.9% may be sufficiently covered by a text book from which it is quoting or extracted, occasionally someone may share a completely new idea. It is right that this be acknowledged. I can't imagine anyone quoting from a doc. without citing the source. Plagiarizing is unthinkable in the case of your posting. Dee Dee - given the current scandals in Germany I think it is sometimes naive of us to believe that every person is as careful as we would like them to be. At least five eminent people have had their doctor titles taken from them in the last twelve months, the most spectacular being the previous Defence and Economics Minister who is now moving to America (where he will try again??). Kit This email has been sent to you by: Kit Batten Auerhahnweg 7 70499 Stuttgart Germany kitthe...@aol.com 0049-711-865524 If you are not the intended recipient of this email, I apologise for my error and for any inconvenience caused. Could you please delete it and any attachment from your computer. A short message to the above email address with a subject line only with text - Incorrect Email Address - would be much appreciated. ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] copyright of email messages
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Joel, no doubt that we - all of us involved in scholarly publications and lectures - have the must to quote correctly any reference and Give to Cesar what is of Cesar, I only wonder why I have to ask permission to Peter Dickson to quote him from his message! It seems to me ridiculous. It is necessary and sufficient The foregoing essay posted on Maphist is for the benefit of Maphisters. Given the author's rights under US Copyright Law, there should be no republication of this text without quoting author and the original source or message. c Peter W. Dickson, 2010 All Rights Reserved vladimiro Il giorno 07/ago/2011, alle ore 23.13, Joel Kovarsky ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Based on the recent comments posted to the list, it seems that the situation is a bit tricky, likely no surprise to anyone. Hence in spite of any assertion of copyright within a specific message, it is likely that the sender is afforded no more protection than anyone else who has posted to the list, without similar assertions. Also, very little of this has been tested in US courts, let alone on an international basis, from what I can tell. Maybe others have more precise details. http://law.unh.edu/thomasfield/ipbasics/copyright-on-the-internet.php http://stason.org/TULARC/business/copyright/3-8-Are-Usenet-postings-and-email-messages-copyrighted.html http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/copyrightissues.html Joel Kovarsky ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Historical latitude shift
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Tom, interesting and intriguing questions. As far as it is in my knowledge, astronomers at the Aragonese court in Naples determined the latitude of the south tip of Calabria with an error of around 4 minutes, in the last quarter of the XV century, and was the best value up to the end of XVIII century. I remember that Ptolemy describes a sort of astronomical circle for determining the inclination of the Ecliptic and I was sure he detected part of minutes. You may see, for more details about Ptolemy's accuracy in that measure of latitude, G. J. Toomer, Ptolemy's Almagest, Duckworth, London 1984, pp. 61-64 and foll. Anyway, take into account that if Ptolemy and some more Arabian astronomer, were able to take measure up to a minute, half a minute or more, it doesn't mean the everybody was was able to do so, with any instrument, in any condition and in any place. The only other references I know on the matter (but are not updated) are - J. Kirtland Wright, Notes on the knowledge of latitudes and longitudes in the Middle Ages, ISIS, V (1923),pp. 75-98; and - a long essay by Luis de Albuquerque in History of Portuguese Cartography, by Armando Cortesao, 1969-1971, vol. II, pp. 221-442 on practical astronomy, navigations and determination of latitude in the Era of discoveries. John Hessler might be of some help in more recent studies (if any). The recurrence of the error, or better the difference, between old and modern observations might depend on an inaccurate division either of the circle, or of any other instruments used for taking rough measures of latitude. . . . or from to tools you used for deriving the coordinates from the Ravenna Cosmography! vladimiro Il giorno 05/ago/2011, alle ore 00.02, Tom Ikins ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Since the rotational axis of the earth has changed with time, but I have no idea if there is any history of it in terms of the not-so-distant past, I ask: Were I measuring latitude with a gnomon in Roman Britain along a line of 0 deg longitude during the period 50-150 AD, what would be the difference in my calculated latitude versus current standard latitude? A formula for conversion accounting for longitude? The lines of latitude derived from the British section of the Ravenna Cosmography are south of expected by about 1/6 degree. How accurately can we expect a gnomon to measure latitude? -- Tom Ikins The Roman Map of Britain http://www.romanmap.com ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] interoceanic canal of Nicaragua and Costa Rica - map date help needed
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + . . . unless there were a great propaganda for financing the project of Nicaragua canal! vladimiro P.S.: Sorry for the third message on the matter i a so little while. Il giorno 18/lug/2011, alle ore 16.39, Vladimiro Valerio ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Following my previous message. It is strange enough that there is no mention of the Suez Canal opened in 1869! May be the date 1867-69 might be the more suitable for your Chart of the world showing distances saved by the interoceanic canal of Nicaragua and Costa Rica, between the acquisition of Alsaka and the opening of Suez Canal. With the Suez Canal in action a date of 1894 seems highly improbable. vladimiro Il giorno 18/lug/2011, alle ore 15.50, Angie Cope, American Geographical Society Library, UW Milwaukee ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Hi, The AGS of NY obtained two copies of the same map at different times. At one point someone gave one copy a date of 1858 and later someone else dated it at 1894. Is anyone familiar with any aspect of this map that you may have an idea of an actual date? Chart of the world showing distances saved by the interoceanic canal of Nicaragua and Costa Rica Julius Bein Co., Photo. Lith. http://collections.lib.uwm.edu/u?/agdm,1188 Thanks. Angie ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] New York Map Society is moving
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + It would be nice to learn from somebody of the staff of the NYPL which kind of Policy they have that doesn't permit to a Map Society to have their meeting in the space of the Library! No money no rooms? or what? They don't like any more to host map terrorists? or what! They don't like the low level of the meetings? or what? What? vladimiro Il giorno 08/lug/2011, alle ore 20.11, ean...@aol.com ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + The following notice has just been sent to all members of the New York Map Society The New York Map Society has just been informed that the New York Public Library's policy no longer permits us to meet there. This unfortunately news means we are obliged to postpone our July 16 meeting until we can find another suitable meeting place. The Map Society's Board of Directors thanks the Library's Map Division for its past support of our efforts to spread knowledge of maps and cartography to all those interested in the subject. We hope that in the future a way can be found to continue working together for our mutual benefit. Fredric Shauger ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Library of Congress gets unique flat earth map
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Why to speak about XIX century fantasy? Why to refer to Samuel Birley Rowbotham (1816-1884)? We are still in company with flat earth disciples, see http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ And it is not an easy struggle! vladimiro Il giorno 20/giu/2011, alle ore 21.42, Red Henry ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + This reminds me that there is a wonderful book which turns up occasionally with the somewhat long-winded title, Zetetic Astronomy: EARTH NOT A GLOBE, an Experimental Inquiry into the TRUE FIGURE OF THE EARTH, Proving it a Plane, without Orbital or Actual Motion, and the ONLY KNOWN MATERIAL WORLD, by Parallax, pub. by Day and Son, Paternoster Row, 1881, 430 pages including indices, all devoted to proving that the Earth is flat. So in the late 19th century there were still some folks arguing for the idea. I see from an on-line source that the author's true name was Samuel Birley Rowbotham. More information about the book can be found at http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/ . A world map was provided in the book on page 90, showing a flat, square Earth complete with four corners of outer gloom and darkness, shown here at http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/img/fig54.jpg . B.W. Henry = - Original Message - From: Michael Holt To: Discussion group for map history Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: [MapHist] Library of Congress gets unique flat earth map This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/11651 -- Who would believe it unless ancient tradition vouched for it? ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
[MapHist] Catalog L'Italia prima dell'talia
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, I forget to inform whosoever might be interested in it, where to purchase the catalog of the exhibition L'Italia prima dell'talia. The catalog has been published by Alessandro Dominioni (http://www.dominionilibri.it/nostre-edizioni/l-italia-prima-dell-italia) and you may buy it from him at the cost of 30,00 Euros. You may also address a request to Sergio Trippini at i...@trippini.it. Next meeting of the Association Roberto Almagià (Italian Map Collector Society) will be held in Civitella del Lago next 17-19 June. With the best of wishes, vladimiro___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Cosmographiae Introduction notes
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Your suggested translation: A description of the whole cosmography [has nothing to do with Universalis cosmographiae] in a manner both complete and intelligible [has nothing to do with in solido quam plano], those points [which points? where are points in the latin?] having also been inserted, which, while unknown to Ptolemy, have been discovered by recent [scholars] ´[nuperis are not the scholars but the explorers] It is sufficient? And, in general, your phrase has no meaning. Anyway, just to stress may original point,I am aware I might be wrong! That's the reason for only a modern critic edition of the whole text may establish the original and correct reading. vladimiro Il giorno 08/giu/2011, alle ore 02.50, Dennis Nilsen ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + By the way, your comments were not rude, though they were unsubstantiated. Dennis On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Dennis Nilsen dennis.nilsen@gmail.com wrote: Dear Vladimiro, I am curious how my translation is definitely false and wrong. Thanks. Sincerely, Dennis On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Vladimiro Valerio vladi...@iuav.it wrote: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + The problems arising from the translation (and understanding) of the sole title of the Cosmographiae Introductio stress the need of a modern critic edition of that text. We have few problems in the first two paragraphs, up to the sea voyages by Vespucci [An introduction to Cosmography, with some principles of geometry and astronomy necessary to it. In addition, the four voyages of Amerigo Vespucci]. BUT the last part: Universalis Cosmographiae descriptio tam in solido quam plano, eis etiam insertis, quae Ptholomaeo ignota a nuperis reperta sunt, have had disparate and desperate translations. I don't know exactly how translate into English (in Italian too!) avoiding long paraphrase, but a slavish translation might be: A Description of the Universal Cosmography, both in solid and in plane, with the addition of the lands, unknown to Ptolemy, that have been discovered by moderns. But what is the meaning of Description, what means in solid and in plane are far from being clear and disclosed. The suggested translation (by Dennis M. Nilsen): A description of the whole cosmography in a manner both complete and intelligible, those points having also been inserted, which, while unknown to Ptolemy, have been discovered by recent [scholars] is definitely false and wrong (sorry for the rude comments). It is really unbelievable to me that such a fundamental text has no modern critic edition. vladimiro Il giorno 07/giu/2011, alle ore 16.20, Dennis Nilsen ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Hispalois, Here is a translation from my efforts: “An introduction to cosmography, with certain principles of geometry and astronomy necessary to it. Moreover, the four voyages of Amerigo Vespucci. A description of the whole cosmography in a manner both complete and intelligible, those points having also been inserted, which, while unknown to Ptolemy, have been discovered by recent [scholars].” Sincerely, Dennis M. Nilsen Rockville Centre, NY 11570 On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Hispalois . hispal...@hotmail.com wrote: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Susan, I am an editor of Wikipedia. Regarding your message below, could provide a better translation of the book title so that I can correct the article? If you wish you can of course edit the correction yourself; if you need any indications on how to do it please do not hesitate to ask me via private e-mail. Best regards, Hispalois From: susan.f...@anu.edu.au To: maphist@geo.uu.nl Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 14:19:58 +1000 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Cosmographiae Introduction notes Speaking of Latin, being ignorant of Waldseemuller I looked up Wikipedia (naturally) and discovered this outrageous but witty translation in their article on the Cosmographia Introductio: From Wikipedia: 'The full title of the book is: Cosmographiae introductio cum quibusdam geometriae ac astronomiae principiis ad eam rem necessariis. Insuper quatuor Americi Vespucii navigationes. Universalis Cosmographiae descriptio tam
Re: [MapHist] Cosmographiae Introduction notes
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Once for ever, the reason for I call for a MODERN CRITIC EDITION of the Cosmographiae Introductio has its reason in avoiding that anybody awaking a certain day might put his grain on the matter ignoring the work made by others and having no knowledge of Latin, Renaissance Latin, scienific language, Renaissance Science, linguistic context, projective geometry, cartography, history of exploration, epistemological methods, history of drawing and representation of space and so . . . for tens of disciplines! I submit - but I ensure you, it is my last message on this topic - two more translations, the best up to now, made in 1907 by Fisher and Wieser, and in 2008 by Hessler, both never quoted before. 1907: Introduction to Cosmography With Certain Necessary Principles of Geometry and Astronomy To which re added The Four Voyages of Amerigo Vespucci A Representation of the Entire World, both in the Solid and Projected on the Plane, Including also lands which were Un- known to Ptolemy, and have been Recently Discovered 2008: Introduction to Cosmography containing the requisite principles of geometry and astronomy besides the Four Voyages of Amerigo Vespucci and A proper representation of the whole world, both as a globe and a map, that includes remote lands unknown to Ptolemy recently brought to light I used the same lining as the didn't use punctuation. Il giorno 08/giu/2011, alle ore 09.48, Wouter Bracke ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Hi, I don't think one should translate universalis with cosmographiae - what does it mean? - but one should take it as a synonym of general, adj. with descriptio (Cfr. Cornelis De Jode's Totius Orbis Cogniti Universalis Descriptio). Descriptio does not necessarily mean description; its first meanings are reproduction, copy or picture. Wouter Bracke Prenten, kaarten en plans - Estampes, cartes et plans Koninklijke Bibliotheek van België - Bibliothèque royale de Belgique Keizerslaan 4 - Boulevard de l'Empereur 4 B 1000 Brussel - B 1000 Bruxelles E-mail : wouter.bra...@kbr.be Tel.: 00.32.(0)2.519.57.43 Fax : 00.32.(0)2.519.57.42 website: http://www.kbr.be -Original Message- From: maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl [mailto:maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Susan Ford Sent: mercredi 8 juin 2011 8:35 To: Discussion group for map history Subject: Re: [MapHist] Cosmographiae Introduction notes This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Cosmographiae Introduction notes
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Sorry, it escaped me before ending and controlling it. Once for ever, the reason for I call for a MODERN CRITIC EDITION of the Cosmographiae Introductio has its reason in avoiding that anybody awaking a certain day might put his grain on the matter ignoring the work made by others and having no knowledge of Latin, Renaissance Latin, scienific language, Renaissance Science, linguistic context, projective geometry, cartography, history of exploration, epistemological methods, history of drawing and representation of space and so . . . for tens of disciplines! I submit - but I ensure you, it is my last message on this topic - two more translations, the best up to now, made in 1907 by Fisher and Wieser, and in 2008 by Hessler, both never quoted before. 1907: Introduction to Cosmography With Certain Necessary Principles of Geometry and Astronomy To which are added The Four Voyages of Amerigo Vespucci A Representation of the Entire World, both in the Solid and Projected on the Plane, Including also lands which were Un- known to Ptolemy, and have been Recently Discovered 2008: Introduction to Cosmography containing the requisite principles of geometry and astronomy besides the Four Voyages of Amerigo Vespucci and A proper representation of the whole world, both as a globe and a map, that includes remote lands unknown to Ptolemy recently brought to light I used the same lining as they didn't use punctuation. All the best vladimiro Il giorno 08/giu/2011, alle ore 09.48, Wouter Bracke ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Hi, I don't think one should translate universalis with cosmographiae - what does it mean? - but one should take it as a synonym of general, adj. with descriptio (Cfr. Cornelis De Jode's Totius Orbis Cogniti Universalis Descriptio). Descriptio does not necessarily mean description; its first meanings are reproduction, copy or picture. Wouter Bracke Prenten, kaarten en plans - Estampes, cartes et plans Koninklijke Bibliotheek van België - Bibliothèque royale de Belgique Keizerslaan 4 - Boulevard de l'Empereur 4 B 1000 Brussel - B 1000 Bruxelles E-mail : wouter.bra...@kbr.be Tel.: 00.32.(0)2.519.57.43 Fax : 00.32.(0)2.519.57.42 website: http://www.kbr.be -Original Message- From: maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl [mailto:maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Susan Ford Sent: mercredi 8 juin 2011 8:35 To: Discussion group for map history Subject: Re: [MapHist] Cosmographiae Introduction notes This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Cosmographiae Introduction notes
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + The problems arising from the translation (and understanding) of the sole title of the Cosmographiae Introductio stress the need of a modern critic edition of that text. We have few problems in the first two paragraphs, up to the sea voyages by Vespucci [An introduction to Cosmography, with some principles of geometry and astronomy necessary to it. In addition, the four voyages of Amerigo Vespucci]. BUT the last part: Universalis Cosmographiae descriptio tam in solido quam plano, eis etiam insertis, quae Ptholomaeo ignota a nuperis reperta sunt, have had disparate and desperate translations. I don't know exactly how translate into English (in Italian too!) avoiding long paraphrase, but a slavish translation might be: A Description of the Universal Cosmography, both in solid and in plane, with the addition of the lands, unknown to Ptolemy, that have been discovered by moderns. But what is the meaning of Description, what means in solid and in plane are far from being clear and disclosed. The suggested translation (by Dennis M. Nilsen): A description of the whole cosmography in a manner both complete and intelligible, those points having also been inserted, which, while unknown to Ptolemy, have been discovered by recent [scholars] is definitely false and wrong (sorry for the rude comments). It is really unbelievable to me that such a fundamental text has no modern critic edition. vladimiro Il giorno 07/giu/2011, alle ore 16.20, Dennis Nilsen ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Hispalois, Here is a translation from my efforts: “An introduction to cosmography, with certain principles of geometry and astronomy necessary to it. Moreover, the four voyages of Amerigo Vespucci. A description of the whole cosmography in a manner both complete and intelligible, those points having also been inserted, which, while unknown to Ptolemy, have been discovered by recent [scholars].” Sincerely, Dennis M. Nilsen Rockville Centre, NY 11570 On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Hispalois . hispal...@hotmail.com wrote: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Susan, I am an editor of Wikipedia. Regarding your message below, could provide a better translation of the book title so that I can correct the article? If you wish you can of course edit the correction yourself; if you need any indications on how to do it please do not hesitate to ask me via private e-mail. Best regards, Hispalois From: susan.f...@anu.edu.au To: maphist@geo.uu.nl Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 14:19:58 +1000 Subject: Re: [MapHist] Cosmographiae Introduction notes Speaking of Latin, being ignorant of Waldseemuller I looked up Wikipedia (naturally) and discovered this outrageous but witty translation in their article on the Cosmographia Introductio: From Wikipedia: 'The full title of the book is: Cosmographiae introductio cum quibusdam geometriae ac astronomiae principiis ad eam rem necessariis. Insuper quatuor Americi Vespucii navigationes. Universalis Cosmographiae descriptio tam in solido quam plano, eis etiam insertis, quae Ptholomaeo ignota a nuperis reperta sunt. (roughly: An introduction to Cosmography, with various geometry and astronomy principles being its necessary object. As well as Amerigo Vespucci’s four voyages, general Cosmography, of which Ptolemy was as ignorant as a baby, is also included and is described plainly and in detail.)' Susan (PhD candidate, Classics, Australian National University) ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list
Re: [MapHist] Cosmographiae Introduction notes
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Tom, it is not so easy solido might means something more or different form sphere or globe, and so on . . . that's the reason why philologist does exist! vladimiro Il giorno 07/giu/2011, alle ore 22.58, Tom Ikins ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Vladimiro Valerio vladi...@iuav.it wrote: in solido quam plano sphere (globe) and plano (map) -- Tom Ikins The Roman Map of Britain http://www.romanmap.com ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Cosmographiae Introduction notes
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Bob, awfully interesting! But you need to contact a keen latin paleographer as the writings seem older than the supposed 1500 and are in a style rather difficult to be understood (it seems a medieval mercantesca). But rather than try to guess what it is it is definitely better to address the request to an expert. It seems worthy to gather a team to study it. I do believe the Cosmographiae Introductio still need, and still is waiting for, a serious modern Critical Edition. best wishes vladimiro Il giorno 23/mag/2011, alle ore 21.03, Bob Ward ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + (Hi, I wonder if I might enlist some help in a Waldseemuller-related project? I was recently at the Library of the Sorbonne in Paris, and examined their copy of Cosmographiae Introductio. I think it is a first edition, from 25th April 1507, but is the variant in which the dedication to Emperor Maximilian is from the Gymnasium Vosagense, rather than from Martinus Ilacomilus (Waldseemuller), and the text reflects this plurality. It does not have the sphere and note about flags on the map that were between pages XXVIII and XXIX in the version found and published by Fr. Joseph Fischer sj, in 1907, but somebody has pasted these in at the end of the pamphlet, and this is noted in a little undated hand-written note at the start of it. In the margin of the page containing the dedication and the short poem, the name Boetius appears in the left margin. There does not seem to be a context for this, and I wonder if it is one of the pseudonyms adopted by the St. Die group. Bound with the pamphlet are eight pages of hand-written Latin notes. I have examined lots of 16th century manuscripts, and these notes could easily have been written just before, or just after, the pamphlet arrived at the University. On the back of the final pages are what may be two autographs, one of which begins with an M, and somebody has written the words par emprimir beside this and signed it what may (or may not) be JF sj. I will try to attach one of the pages of hand-written notes, if I can reduce its size sufficiently. I wonder if anybody on the forum has come across these notes, or a transcription and translation of them, or would be interested in having a go at translating some of them now, to give an idea of what they represent ? They may give a clue to the nature of the original map that accompanied the pamphlet. At the risk of annoying John (Hessler) again, I would repeat my opinion that the large Waldseemuller map in twelve sections now in the LOC represents a later state than the one described in the Cosmographiae Introductio. I visited the Sorbonne Library in 1991 as part of a Winston Churchill Memorial Trust Fellowship, and was shown into a room on the first floor (second floor in US terms) which was full of uncatalogued maps, some of which I recognized as being very rare. They included a copy of the so-called French Drake map by van Sype from circa 1590, for example. It's a slim chance, I know, but if there was one rare 16th century map among this uncatalogued set of maps, then there way be others, including possibly one of the original Waldseemuller maps. We know that the LOC map was not printed until at least 1516, and there is nothing in the Cosmographiae that suggests that the plane map, which is larger than the small 5 globe, is of the size of the LOC version. Also, the CI clearly describes America as being a single island completely surrounded by water, which the LOC map does not depict. I think it is quite possible that the original map that accompanied the Cosmographiae Introductio was much smaller, perhaps a single sheet, and perhaps bound in with other, unrelated maps (as was the French Drake map) in that uncatalogued room full of maps. Unfortunately, the Sorbonne Library is undergoing extensive modifications in order to improve security, and all of the objects have been transferred from the main building to a temporary repository some 40 kms out of Paris, and I was not able to get permission to visit the stacks this time. Meanwhile I would appreciate any help that might be available to understand these eight pages of Latin notes, which are beyond my powers of transcrition and translation. Bob Ward CI hand-written page.docx___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not
Re: [MapHist] Tropic of Cancer and of Capricocrn
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Giulio, I see only a list of placenames, and anything else, apart from a certain degree of similarity in sounds. Do you mean that Antofagasta is a settlement of Ancient Roman origin? In replying it is sufficient a Yes, or a Not. And M.t August in Australia (from your previous map of the Tropic of Capricorn) is also a Mount discovered and named by roman Surveyors? Even in this case it is sufficient a Yes, or a Not. If NOT for both them, who and when decided to name those place in that way? vladimiro Il giorno 08/mag/2011, alle ore 06.58, giulio pizzati ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Vladimiro! Not few lines, but only one line: the line number 80th East connecting Altinum to Antonfagasta (Cile) The number 8 is repeated 18 times and the onomastic Antony is repeated 6 time along this line. Eratostenes finded Tropic of Cancer. August of Capricorn. See pgs 145 and 146 of The Four Surveyors here attached. Giulio. --- Sab 7/5/11, Vladimiro Valerio vladi...@iuav.it ha scritto: Da: Vladimiro Valerio vladi...@iuav.it Oggetto: Re: [MapHist] Tropic of Cancer and of Capricocrn A: Discussion group for map history maphist@geo.uu.nl Data: Sabato 7 maggio 2011, 23:47 This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Giulio, just one more query: could you please be so kind as to explain, in your own words, without referring to other sources or text, in a few lines, the relation - obscure to me - between the name Antofagasta in Chile and the mapping of the Tropic of Capricorn supposed to be made under August ruler? In which way the position of Antofagasta at (around) the latitude of the Tropic of the Capricorn is a proof (or a part of the proof) of the accomplishment of the task by Roman surveyors? vladimiro P.S.: if Maphisters are bothered (has Peter anything to say?) by the discussion you may also reply privately. Il giorno 07/mag/2011, alle ore 19.18, giulio pizzati ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Vladimiro! We are speaking about an Architects topic: Territorial Roman Planing. Geography, History, Archeostronomy, Arcaeology are a complement. I'll use understandable worlds: 1. The Map of Tropic of Capricorn means to me to reconstruct the Map of Vispanivs Agrippa exposed in Rome in Vispania porch and universally known as the ORBIS PICTVS. 2. I use modern Maps to superpose Toponims given by the four Mensores of Caesar from 44 to 12 BC. 3. How do I map a Line? Very simple:Take for exemple the Cardo 7th East passing not far from Murano (Venice, Italy) . I open Google Earth (it is free), I point the ruler in SEVEN Island in Svalborg (Norway) an go to SETTE Banda in Gabon (Africa). Ruler gives you a geodetic line (maximvs circvlvs)-. Along this line you will find 18 Toponims (location names) repeating number SEVEN. Now what is a Straight Line? It is a series of point leaning along the line. In this case the 7th Cardo East. See The Four Surveyors pgs. 133/135. 4. August had to measure the whole World because of the 'Votvs' of Scipions after Cartago was destroyed and because of the 'Indictio' of Caesar . 5.There is more that sufficient evidences because Cardo lines left by Mensores are more that 10.000 (Tenthousend) . Everibody can find it with Google Earth. 10.000. evidences prouve automaticaly that Honorivs is true. (See Date a Cesare) More questions? Giulio --- Sab 7/5/11, Vladimiro Valerio vladi...@iuav.it ha scritto: Da: Vladimiro Valerio vladi...@iuav.it Oggetto: Re: [MapHist] Tropic of Cancer and of Capricocrn A: Discussion group for map history maphist@geo.uu.nl Data: Sabato 7 maggio 2011, 15:39 This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Giulio, we have to use understandable words: what does the map of Tropic of Capricorn mean? In which sense you use the word map? How we may map a line? When a line like the Tropic of Capricorn runs for a great amount of its length on the sea, what does to map it mean? In your conceptual language, is there any difference between to measure and to map? Why August had to measure/map the Tropic of Capricorn, just for the sake of doing it? I read some of your articles and books
Re: [MapHist] Tropic of Cancer and of Capricocrn
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Giulio, we have to use understandable words: what does the map of Tropic of Capricorn mean? In which sense you use the word map? How we may map a line? When a line like the Tropic of Capricorn runs for a great amount of its length on the sea, what does to map it mean? In your conceptual language, is there any difference between to measure and to map? Why August had to measure/map the Tropic of Capricorn, just for the sake of doing it? I read some of your articles and books but the recurring question is WHY? Is not sufficient at all that somebody (Julius Honorius) wrote that the world was surveyed (?) by four men that it automatically means that it is the truth. I fear we have to find, first of all, a common language and to assign to the words a shared and accepted meaning. You sent us a modern map in cylindrical projection where the tropic of Capricorn is in evidence in red, and with 5 toponyms on it with an allusion to August. I hardly understand the relation between your words (i. e. the map of Tropic of Capricorn made by August, later 27 BC) and the map itself? vladimiro Il giorno 07/mag/2011, alle ore 10.59, giulio pizzati ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Waldo I send attached ( png ) the map of Tropic of Capricorn made by August, later 27 BC. Raphta is a Roman naval station to import ivory. See PERUPLUS MARI ERYTHREI (Cap. 16/18) see also (wikipedia-org/wiki/Indo_roman_trade_and_relation) Giulio --- Mer 4/5/11, Waldo Tobler wtob...@earthlink.net ha scritto: Da: Waldo Tobler wtob...@earthlink.net Oggetto: Re: [MapHist] Tropic of Cancer and of Capricocrn A: eurat...@gmail.com, Discussion group for map history maphist@geo.uu.nl Data: Mercoledì 4 maggio 2011, 04:22 This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + They are not great circles! Waldo Tobler Geographer tob...@geog.ucsb.edu http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~tobler On May 3, 2011, at 2:32 PM, Christos Nüssli wrote: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Le 24.04.2011 18:03, ottoman...@comcast.net a écrit : This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + In my class I was asked when the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn were identified as two of the five great circles around the earth. Wikipedia has failed me on the question. Surely these go back before the Greeks who named them. I would like to impress my students with an answer and would appreciate whatever you can give me. The next one will probably be the equinoctial line. (Sigh!) Tom Goodrich Sorry for this late post but I was in Italy during the Easter vacation. The notion of tropic is something easy to apprehend without deep knowledge in astronomy. The zone of the earth situated between the 2 tropics is the the only area where the sun passes, at least, twice a year at the exact zenith (=exactly perpendicular to the ground - in fact, to a plane tangent to our sphere). In Europe, we cannot observe the real zenith. Eratosthenes experimented the exact zenith from the bottom of a dry well at Aswan (=Syene) and by a comparison with the zenith angle at Alexandria, he was able to calculate the earth circumference. My opinion is that Eratosthenes well should have been rather at Amada, today under the lake Nasser, 180 km south of Aswan, but, anyway, that doesn't make a big difference for an eye measure. Atb _ Christos Nüssli * Europe Maps - http://www.euratlas.org ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist -Segue allegato- ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed
Re: [MapHist] Tropic of Cancer and of Capricocrn
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Giulio, just one more query: could you please be so kind as to explain, in your own words, without referring to other sources or text, in a few lines, the relation - obscure to me - between the name Antofagasta in Chile and the mapping of the Tropic of Capricorn supposed to be made under August ruler? In which way the position of Antofagasta at (around) the latitude of the Tropic of the Capricorn is a proof (or a part of the proof) of the accomplishment of the task by Roman surveyors? vladimiro P.S.: if Maphisters are bothered (has Peter anything to say?) by the discussion you may also reply privately. Il giorno 07/mag/2011, alle ore 19.18, giulio pizzati ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Vladimiro! We are speaking about an Architects topic: Territorial Roman Planing. Geography, History, Archeostronomy, Arcaeology are a complement. I'll use understandable worlds: 1. The Map of Tropic of Capricorn means to me to reconstruct the Map of Vispanivs Agrippa exposed in Rome in Vispania porch and universally known as the ORBIS PICTVS. 2. I use modern Maps to superpose Toponims given by the four Mensores of Caesar from 44 to 12 BC. 3. How do I map a Line? Very simple:Take for exemple the Cardo 7th East passing not far from Murano (Venice, Italy) . I open Google Earth (it is free), I point the ruler in SEVEN Island in Svalborg (Norway) an go to SETTE Banda in Gabon (Africa). Ruler gives you a geodetic line (maximvs circvlvs)-. Along this line you will find 18 Toponims (location names) repeating number SEVEN. Now what is a Straight Line? It is a series of point leaning along the line. In this case the 7th Cardo East. See The Four Surveyors pgs. 133/135. 4. August had to measure the whole World because of the 'Votvs' of Scipions after Cartago was destroyed and because of the 'Indictio' of Caesar . 5.There is more that sufficient evidences because Cardo lines left by Mensores are more that 10.000 (Tenthousend) . Everibody can find it with Google Earth. 10.000. evidences prouve automaticaly that Honorivs is true. (See Date a Cesare) More questions? Giulio --- Sab 7/5/11, Vladimiro Valerio vladi...@iuav.it ha scritto: Da: Vladimiro Valerio vladi...@iuav.it Oggetto: Re: [MapHist] Tropic of Cancer and of Capricocrn A: Discussion group for map history maphist@geo.uu.nl Data: Sabato 7 maggio 2011, 15:39 This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Giulio, we have to use understandable words: what does the map of Tropic of Capricorn mean? In which sense you use the word map? How we may map a line? When a line like the Tropic of Capricorn runs for a great amount of its length on the sea, what does to map it mean? In your conceptual language, is there any difference between to measure and to map? Why August had to measure/map the Tropic of Capricorn, just for the sake of doing it? I read some of your articles and books but the recurring question is WHY? Is not sufficient at all that somebody (Julius Honorius) wrote that the world was surveyed (?) by four men that it automatically means that it is the truth. I fear we have to find, first of all, a common language and to assign to the words a shared and accepted meaning. You sent us a modern map in cylindrical projection where the tropic of Capricorn is in evidence in red, and with 5 toponyms on it with an allusion to August. I hardly understand the relation between your words (i. e. the map of Tropic of Capricorn made by August, later 27 BC) and the map itself? vladimiro Il giorno 07/mag/2011, alle ore 10.59, giulio pizzati ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Waldo I send attached ( png ) the map of Tropic of Capricorn made by August, later 27 BC. Raphta is a Roman naval station to import ivory. See PERUPLUS MARI ERYTHREI (Cap. 16/18) see also (wikipedia-org/wiki/Indo_roman_trade_and_relation) Giulio ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl
Re: [MapHist] Humboldt Map of False Positions
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + By the way, also the 1744 map Parallele Du contour de l'Italie Selon les cartes de M.M. Del'Isle et Sanson, et celle qui résulte de l'Analyse Géographique de ce continent par le S. d'Anville is on Gallica at http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6500066n.r=italie.langFR vladimiro WW Vladimiro Valerio Professore Ordinario di Geometria Proiettiva e Descrittiva Office: Dipartimento di Storia della Architettura San Polo 2468 - Palazzo Badoer 30125 Venezia tel. + 39 041 2571418, fax 041 719044 e-mail vladi...@iuav.it mobile +39 335 403807 home: Calle Giustina Renier Michiel, 2/a 30141 Venezia - Murano tel. +39 041 5275666 W PER ASPERA AD ASTRA W Il giorno 01/mag/2011, alle ore 11.52, Gilles Palsky ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Maphisters You probably know the famous Carte de France corrigée par ordre du Roy which was based upon new astronomical measures by Cassini, Picard and La Hire. It was published in 1693, and the new limits of the territory were superimposed to the previous shape of France (i e France by Nicolas Sanson) Louis XIV made a joke (reported by Fontenelle) about the work of ces messieurs de l'académie which made him lost a fifth of his kingdom http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b77106977 Gilles (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + -- Ce message a ete verifie par MailScanner pour des virus ou des polluriels et rien de suspect n'a ete trouve. -- Gilles Palsky Professeur, universite de Paris 1 Institut de Geographie 191 rue Saint-Jacques 75005 Paris -- Ce message a ete verifie par MailScanner pour des virus ou des polluriels et rien de suspect n'a ete trouve. ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Humboldt Map of False Positions
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + David (and Ed), the same did Bourguignon D'Anville with his famous Carte de l'Italie published in Paris in 1743, in two sheets. In a very famous volume titled Analyse Géographique de l'Italie (Paris 1744), discussing how he was able to improve the shape and the coordinates of Italie, without leaving for a while his armchair, he published a map of Italy with three different contour: one for l'Italie by Sanson (1641), the second for l'Italie by De L'isle (1700) and the third for his NEW map of Italy. The map, engraved by Bourgoin, is titled: Parallele Du contour de l'Italie Selon les cartes de M.M. Del'Isle et Sanson, et celle qui résulte de l'Analyse Géographique de ce continent par le S. d'Anville. From the legend we learn that: Le trait ombré est celui du S. d'Anville Le trait sans ombre est d'après M. Del'Isle Le trait fit de points d'après M. Sanson vladimiro Il giorno 01/mag/2011, alle ore 00.53, Ed Dahl ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + On Apr 30, 2011, at 6:31 PM, Dyallen2 wrote: I recently came across on the David Rumsey site Alexander von Humboldt's Carte de Fausses Positions de Mexico, Acapulco, Veracruz et du Pic d'Orizaba (http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/s/ebguwk), which appeared in his 1811 atlas of New Spain. This is the earliest example I have seen of a map that attempts to display the errors in previous maps. Does anyone know of earlier examples, or is Humboldt's map a first? David -- Here's one, published in 1741, the manuscript of which was presented in 1736. Ed http://collections.mun.ca/maps/G_3435_1736_B8.jpg ... Buache offers a comparison with the English 1733 map of Mr. Popple, the outlines of which are featured in faint red overwhich is overlayed Buache's own map (title note and bottom note). Cartes des côtes meridionales de l'Isle de Terre Neuve : comprenant les isles Royale et de Sable avec la partie du Grand Banc, où se fait la pêche de la morue Subject Newfoundland and Labrador--Maps--Early works to 1800 Cape Breton Island (N.S.)--Maps--Early works to 1800 Banks (Oceanography)--North Atlantic Ocean--Maps--Early works to 1800 Description Scale 1:3 350 000 (W 62°--W 50°/N 49°--N 43°). -- Depths shown by soundings. Prime meridians Paris and Ferro. Compass rose. Notes. Bar scale in French and English marineleagues. -- Desbruslins sculpsit.--lower left corner. -- Buache offers a comparison with the English 1733 map of Mr. Popple, the outlines of which are featured in faint red overwhich is overlayed Buache's own map (title note and bottom note) Creator Buache, Philippe, 1700-1773 Place of Publication Paris Publisher P. Buache Date 1741 Dimensions of Original22.0 x 33.4 cm. Contributors Desbruslins, F. Location Depicted Canada--Newfoundland and Labrador Canada--Nova Scotia--Cape Breton Island Time Period 18th Century Language Fre Notes CNS map no. 45. - Lower right corner: No. 4 et 5. Local Call Number G 3435 1736 B8 MAP Type Still Image Resource Type Map FormatImage/jpeg Record No CNS-M0027 CollectionCentre for Newfoundland Studies--Digitized Maps RepositoryMemorial University of Newfoundland. Libraries. Centre for Newfoundland Studies High Resolution Right click link to download jpeg (3.32MB) http://collections.mun.ca/maps/G_3435_1736_B8.jpg ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] The Four Surveyors
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + The rest is silence (William Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act 5 scene 2) vladimiro Il giorno 29/apr/2011, alle ore 14.33, giulio pizzati ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Deborah! My hero is Ronald Regan. When he took first office he fired 200.000 scool teachers. Your enswer convinced me, he was right. To fight comunism he first started from inside US. You think: if Pavda do not said that: it is not true. First Gospel manuscript is not earlier that 335 AD. So you said Christ never exist, no evidencies because for you 'seeing is not beliving'. You do non think with your own mind. Somebody else has to see for you. You refuse to chek if names along Cardo exists or not As I said in 'Give to Caesar' pag.20: Sience is declining. Nobody belive in Caesar measurement, but in February 22, 2008 the Flat Earth Society of London has 13.000. subsciber. (flatearthsocety.org.cms). Deborah! Are you listed berween subscibers? Do you steel belive Earth is Flat? Nobody tell you it is round? Giulio Da: Deborah Taylor-Pearce d...@she-philosopher.com A: Discussion group for map history maphist@geo.uu.nl Inviato: Venerdì 29 Aprile 2011 1:45 Oggetto: Re: [MapHist] The Four Surveyors This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Giulio, You have not to be qualified to see the evidence. I do, actually, because for me, seeing is not believing. I did read through the beginning pages of your book at http://books.google.com/books?id=BR-tFdQD5IYCsource=gbs_navlinks_s (which, BTW, lacks even the most rudimentary bibliographic data, let alone metadata of the sort that would meet Francis' high standards! ;-) and I can't possibly pass judgment on your evidence, or your methods -- including arguments based on the prevalence of a series of place-names repeated along alignments (p. 15) and whether The thousands of place-names containing a numerical etymological origin do indeed speak for themselves (p. 16). I am trained as a literary critic, though, and am enough of a post-modernist to believe that the facts never simply speak for themselves. So, speaking now as a literary critic (rather than a map person), I have to say that I find claims such as that made at the top of p. 15 of your monograph problematic: There are 135 extant manuscript copies of this book [i.e., the _Cosmographia_ of Julis Honorius, written before 376 AD], which was widely known during the Middle Ages and translated in many languages. A similar book known as the _Cosmographia_ of *Pseudo Aethici*, of which 30 manuscript copies still exist and which was written before the 8th century CE, refers to the same enterprise of mapping out the world's surface. The fact is also confirmed by Cassiodorus. To my mind, none of this sheds new light on the surveying techniques in use of 2,000 years ago (p. 7) or proves that the ancient Romans succeeded in acquiring a much vaster geographical knowledge of the world than has been hitherto surmised (p. 7). This mediated text, written sometime before 376 CE and quite some time *after* the world survey conducted between 44-7 BC, by author(s) who did NOT directly participate in the event described (and even the textual accounts of those who are active participants can be distorted), is not evidence of anything other than the author's opinion. And it may not even accurately represent that, since the *ethos* or voice of a text may simply be parroting cultural norms or serving as a mouthpiece for the state, for political propaganda, etc. (A good recent example of this kind of politically-motivated restatement of the facts attaches to the public persona of Fox News reporter Bill Sammon in the U.S., who On a 2009 Mediterranean cruise for rich right-wingers, ... was taped admitting that he merely pretended to believe the nasty things he frequently said about Barack Obama on his network. Rather than tell his viewers what he understood to be the truth, he preferred to mislead them with what he called 'rather farfetched ... mischievous speculation.' which I've quoted from: http://www.thenation.com/article/159770/fox-liars-network ). But even if we accept Honorius' claim in the _Cosmographia_ as factual (which I do not ;-), there's no way that the _Cosmographia_'s popularity during the Middle Ages (yet another questionable assumption) establishes the text as authoritative. Moreover, there's plenty of evidence to support my
Re: [MapHist] Tropic of Cancer and of Capricorn
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + The five great circle in the skies were clearly described by Ptolemy in his Almagest, around the middle of the 1st century of our Era (see, for instance, Toomer's edition of the Almagest) and are (1) the ecliptic, (2) the equator, (3 and 4) the two tropics, and (5) the main colure passing through the Vernal point and the poles (equinoctial colure, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colure). In astronomy they have been for centuries the most important great circles, as it is possible to describe the position of any point in the sky (stars, Moon and planets) according to angular distances from the equator and the colure (equatorial coordinate system) or the ecliptic and its pole (ecliptic coordinate system). Of course, the grid of coordinates are infinite (and infinite are the great circles) but the main great circles, in ancient astronomy, were five! It is not a matter of opinion but it is a matter of History. As I have pointed out several times in my messages to the list, to be Historian means to have a peculiar scientific method to approach the past. It is not sufficient to be able to count up to infinity to write a History of numbers or to know calculus to write a History of Calculus; neither to have a computer machine and use sophisticated softwares to write a History of the Processes of Human Knowledge . . . and so on. As a more clear example I may mention the Science of Philology: to be a literate person is not sufficient to study and understand a Medieval text. Coming to Tom answer, I may suggest to have a look at Statistical dating of the Phenomena by Edoxus, by Dennis Duke (http://www.dioi.org/vols/wf0.pdf) from where I copy the following text: We therefore know that Eudoxus had a fully developed conception of the celestial sphere. He understood the importance of the celestial poles and the celestial equator, and that the path of the Sun – the ecliptic – is a circle inclined to the equator. He understood the tropics as the circles parallel to the equator that touch the ecliptic at its most northern and southern points – the solstices, and when the Sun was at a solsticial point, he knew the fraction of the circumference of a tropic above and below the horizon. He understood the colures as circles through the celestial poles and the solsticial points, and through the celestial poles and the equinoctial points, the points where the equator and ecliptic intersect. . . . At the time of Eudoxus the Tropics appear to be named Winter and Summer Tropics (Eudoxus was active in the first half of the IV century B.C.). Again in the words of Dennis Duke: About the winter tropic, Eudoxus says this: Upon it are: the middle of the Capricorn, . . . The reason why it's been named Tropic of Capricorn is for the constellation of Capricorn is (was) upon it. I have not in my hands (I am on holyday) Otto Neugebauer's HAMA (History of Ancient Mathematical Astronomy) thus I cannot be more precise at the moment, but I am sure you may find there some correct reply to your queries. If you may wait for a couple of days I may send you a private message on the matter or supply further bibliography. See, of course, the chapters and related bibliography in the first volume of History of Cartography, edited by Brian Harley and David Woodward (Chicago University Press, 1987). vladimiro Il giorno 24/apr/2011, alle ore 21.11, str...@aol.com ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I cannot answer your question. I will note that there is an infinite count of great circles on the earth's surface, not five. Regards, daan Strebe -Original Message- From: ottoman...@comcast.net To: History of Maps Sent: Sun, Apr 24, 2011 9:03 am Subject: [MapHist] Tropic of Cancer and of Capricocrn This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + In my class I was asked when the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn were identified as two of the five great circles around the earth. Wikipedia has failed me on the question. Surely these go back before the Greeks who named them. I would like to impress my students with an answer and would appreciate whatever you can give me. The next one will probably be the equinoctial line. (Sigh!) Tom Goodrich ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the
Re: [MapHist] Tropic of Cancer and of Capricocrn
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + . . . . better six if we also consider the important Solstitial colure. vladimiro Il giorno 24/apr/2011, alle ore 18.03, ottoman...@comcast.net ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + In my class I was asked when the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn were identified as two of the five great circles around the earth. Wikipedia has failed me on the question. Surely these go back before the Greeks who named them. I would like to impress my students with an answer and would appreciate whatever you can give me. The next one will probably be the equinoctial line. (Sigh!) Tom Goodrich ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Tropic of Cancer and of Capricocrn
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + . . . even if Tropics, of course, are not great circle on the sphere (circle with the same diameter of the sphere). vladimiro Il giorno 24/apr/2011, alle ore 18.03, ottoman...@comcast.net ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + In my class I was asked when the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn were identified as two of the five great circles around the earth. Wikipedia has failed me on the question. Surely these go back before the Greeks who named them. I would like to impress my students with an answer and would appreciate whatever you can give me. The next one will probably be the equinoctial line. (Sigh!) Tom Goodrich ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] RE: Question pre-1466 edition of Ptolemys Geography on the Internet
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + The following information might be useful for everybody interested in Italian humanistic studies: a great deal of the holdings of the Biblioteca Medicea Laurenziana, in Florence, has been digitized and put on line. In particular a project related to Plutei has come to a completion and is on line since a few months (a year may be). Information on the project (in Italian) may be found at: http://teca.bmlonline.it/TecaRicerca/index.html The link to the digized codices is at: http://teca.bmlonline.it/TecaRicerca/index.jsp For searching the works by Ptolemy you have to put the name Ptolemaeus. Then you will have access to 50 Ptolemaic Codices (10 per pages in 5 pages), with Segnatura (shelf Mark) Secolo (century) Autore (Author) and Titolo (title). so you may choose what you want. Than you have to click on an amplifier lens to go into the digitized codex. Have a nice trip! vladimiro Il giorno 22/feb/2011, alle ore 20.24, mbusi...@banat.ro ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Does anybody know a pre-1466 (Donnus Nicolaus Germanus) edition of Ptolemy’s Geography available on line on Internet? I forgot (sorry!) to mention: preferably with maps! Sorin Fortiu Timisoara, Romania http://www.banat.ro/academica.htm ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Barbari's Venice
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + See the message by Tony Campbell on December 24th, 2010 on the same subject: For an interesting account, in the [Minneapolis] Star Tribune, of the magnificent 1500 view of Venice by Jacopo de' Barbari, recently acquired by the Minneapolis Institute of Arts see: http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/art/112389019.html?elr=KArksD:aDyaEP:kD:aUt:aDyaEP:kD:aUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aU6:iPhD_oD3aPc:i_kchO7DU [NB that is one very long URL] Those in the neighbourhood [and those who missed the unmissable British Library 'Magnificent Maps' exhibition] will have the opportunity to see it from February 6 as part of 'Titian and the Golden Age of Venetian Painting'. Tony Campbell and the following link for details: http://www.artsmia.org/index.php?section_id=2exh_id=3727 vladimiro Il giorno 31/gen/2011, alle ore 00.24, Dan Terkla ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + The Weekend Financial Times reports that Daniel Crouch has scored a major sale shortly after setting up on his own in Oxford last year, selling a very rare map of Venice--the only known example not already in a musem--to the Minneapolis Institute of Arts for 'a seven-figure sum.' The huge woodcut map was made in 1500 and presents a bird's-eye view of La Serenissima. Its creator, Jacopo Barberi, documented every building, canal and open square by dint of climbing every bell tower in the city: so exceptional was the result that it was the first image ever to be copyrighted. The map goes on show in Minneapolis from February 6.Š -- ** Dan Terkla Professor of English, Humanities Coordinator English House Illinois Wesleyan University Bloomington, IL 61702-2900 USA Phone: +1 309-556-3649 Fax: +1 309-556-3545 email: ter...@iwu.edu In velo, veritas. ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Help with Coronelli’s map Corso Del Danubio ...
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + H=Hungarian, it might be. I dont' know whether the Italian Coronelli used the form Hungaria (Hungeria) with the H. In Italian, today, we write Ungeria. We have to check for the past. vladimiro Il giorno 06/gen/2011, alle ore 18.23, Nagy, Zuzana ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Hello, Given that Temesvar is the Hungarian form of the name, and the city was part of Hungarian holdings the H=Hungarian Zuzana Zuzana Nagy Harvard Coll. Lib. -Original Message- From: maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl [mailto:maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl] On Behalf Of RWS Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 10:58 AM To: 'Discussion group for map history' Subject: RE: [MapHist] Help with Coronelli’s map Corso Del Danubio ... This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Sorin Fortiu et al It so happens that I have Coronelli's fine wall map of the Danube hanging on the wall of my map study. The names and wording given for the city of Temeswar are as follows: Tetneswar H Temesvaria ) Temesvarium ) L Tenetia) Zurobara * tentata da Turchi 1551 presa da Turchi 1552 The three middle names are bracketed with the letter L, presumably for Latin. I don't know what the first H stands for. I hope this helps. With regards Rodney Shirley rodne...@dsl.pipex.com -Original Message- From: maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl [mailto:maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Sorin Fortiu Sent: 06 January 2011 10:44 To: Discussion group for map history Subject: [MapHist] Help with Coronelli’s map Corso Del Danubio ... This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I need some help with Vincenzo Maria CORONELLI’s map Corso Del Danubio Da Vienna Sin’ à Nicopoli e Paesi Adiacenti Descritti, … (1690). On my copy, I can not decipher all the names for the city TEMESWAR [I see only the last name as ZUROBARA]. Does anybody know a good reproduction available on Internet? Thank You for any help, S o r i n F O R T I U --- Spl. N. Titulescu, nr. 10A, sc. B, ap. 28 Timisoara, cod 300158, Romania mbusi...@rdslink.ro mbusi...@banat.ro m o b i l : 0722378390 tel. / fax: 0256491181 http://www.banat.ro/academica.htm ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
[MapHist] Sicily
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Maphisters, I need your help in identifying the provenance of a small woodcut map (8x12 cm) of Sicily from a German book of the XVI century. I don't know whether I may send a light image to the list, but i may send it on demand. vladimiro ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] fractal theory of Brownian motion
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Carlo, you gave a reply to my question: what does it matter, which is not shortsighted at all. It was not my intention to criticize the work done by John Hessler, who deserves all our esteem and attention, mine was a general statement. We may use in our historical analysis every tool at our disposal no one is worse or better then others, the problem is to reach a goal. You state that Hessler in the study on the collection of navigational data by Delisle understand and explains us the way of navigation was pursued in XVI-XVII century and find a great affinity between variations of errors and stochastic function. Fine! I will write to John asking him a copy of this (unpublished, I suppose) paper. Thanks for the reply and for the information you gave to all of us. vladimiro Il giorno 22/dic/2010, alle ore 18.15, Carlo Petuchia ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Vladimiro, I am not here to defend his paper but I think your what does it matter is a bit shortsighted. Hessler in this paper took all of Delisle's notebooks which have over 10,000 positional measurements and declinations from old ships log books that Delisle compiled throughout his life from voyages of the 16th and 17th centuries...these notebooks are in the National Archives of France in Paris and have never been published. Hessler made a huge database of these and then showed that these directions and declinations can be modeled using stochastic Brownian bridges and from that he calculated the incremental positional error of each of the legs of the various transatlantic voyages and showed how the error fit the profile of stochastic functions quite closely...this gives a real estimate of the actual error of early transatlantic voyages and shows the stochastic and truely random nature of early navigation...and I believe for first time shows that early navigational errors are not systematicand besides, the mathematics he used was very elegant and you never know what you will get until you try... Next year Hessler is a Distingushed Lecturer in Applied Mathematics at NIST and will giving the same lecture on February 11th using updates in his database and a better Brownian modelyou should go... Carlo Petuchia Visiting Professor of Applied Mathematics Courant Institute, NYU On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Vladimiro Valerio vladi...@iuav.it wrote: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + . . . me too, Ed! There are a lot of questions we don't realize in some modern mathematical (computational, would be better) approach to history of cartography. The basic question is always the same: what does it matter? vladimiro ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Query: Arno Peters controversy
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Thanks to Kit for the call to reply at the bibliographical help which moved Stefan to write to us. May be I had to count up one million before replying. I wanted just to point out, in a vivid manner, that the question from the technical point of view has nothing else to say and I wanted to suggest a new line of research: manipulation of masses, and social psychology. I would very like to know, for instance, whether the UN Organizations like Unicef asked to some learned person (Snyder, Robinson, et al.) what he thought about the new projection before adopting it! And what moved them to choose that projection. Anyway, from the list of interests of Stefan I see he is moving in the socio-political direction. FIne! As fa as to Italy there has been no particular attention from the Academic point of view, neither from the political one. I remember just a paper written in the early 90s in order to defend Mercator's projection against the attack by Peters and the attention paid by persons involved in ONG. I may ask to the Società Geografica Italiana whether it took part to the international debate. vladimiro Il giorno 23/ott/2010, alle ore 08.57, kitthe...@aol.com ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Vladimiro While agreeing with everything you have written I do think we may have missed the point a little. My reply was to point out to / remind Stefan that there was at least one other name connected to this particular projection. I have no axe to grind with the projection per se. Secondly, there are a lot of people out here who are not learned (your bold type). I do classify myself as a lover of maps and an amateur collector and perhaps know a little more about these wonderful works of art than many, but I do not classify myself as learned as I still have much to learn. Thirdly, and most importantly, we have not given poor Stefan many sources which he can refer to which was his original appeal. (Sorry if I have missed any besides Joost's references to his father's work.) Maybe some of the learned community out there can give him some decent references. I do not think anyone wants to start up a pro-contra discussion here as I believe most readers are on your side. Best wishes to all MapHisters Kit This email has been sent to you by: Kit Batten Auerhahnweg 7 70499 Stuttgart Germany kitthe...@aol.com 0049-711-865524 If you are not the intended recipient of this email, I apologise for my error and for any inconvenience caused. Could you please delete it and any attachment from your computer. A short message to the above email address with a subject line only with text - Incorrect Email Address - would be much appreciated. ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Help with Ptolemaios Handbuch der Geographie
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I have the book. Send me privately your list of places. vladimiro Il giorno 23/ott/2010, alle ore 21.55, Sorin Fortiu ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear List; I need badly some help; I do not find Alfred STÜCKELBERGER, Gerd GRAßHOFF, et al. (eds.), Ptolemaios Handbuch der Geographie, Griechisch-Deutsch, 2006, ISBN 3-7965-2148-7 in the libraries from Romania or Hungary. For an experiment, I would need 10 coordinates of some places as they are listed in this book. If there is a kind soul willing to help me, please contact me off list. Thank You all for any help, S o r i n F O R T I U http://www.banat.ro/academica.htm ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Query: Arno Peters controversy
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, I took some while before replying to the message of Stefan, as it is important to get quiet and count up to ten thousand before enter into the debate of the so called Arno Peters Projection. Any learned person (learned in the field of geographical projection, I mean, here and onward!) is irritated and offended by the success of that projection, for at least two reason. First, it is not an invention of Mr. Arno Peters but it is only a variant of a rectangular (or cylindrical) equivalent (or equal area) projection. Any of us may invent one projection of that kind just modifying the dimension of the degree of longitude. We may decide that equator has its proper length (unless the scale) and than the distance between the parallels is computed in order to have the rectangles formed by parallels and meridians equivalent (in dimension, I mean, unless the scale) to the spherical surface limited by the same meridians and parallels. Peters decide to choose, as I well remember, 45° of latitude. Secondly, there are an infinity of equivalent (equal area) projections. The sinusoidal is one of them, but it is almost useless to name all of them. Thus we really didn't need to wait for Arno Peter's to discover an equal area projection! The fight against the Mercators projection is an invention by Peters. No learned person may imagine that Greenland if wider in extension than Africa, as any learned person knows the distortion any projection produces in the image of the earth, and any learned person knows that we use a peculiar projection in function of our, or requested, needs: projection useful for sailing purposes (Mercator or ay conformal projection), for air navigation (gnomonic or any other which transforms great circle in straight lines), for cadastral purposes (modified Cassini, or Bonne or any equal area projections) and so on at the infinity! Peters used the great scientific ignorance in the field of cartographical projections and used the complex of the colonial powers and white people (generally speaking) for what they did in exploiting the actual third world, to impose a projection that would give, at last according to him, the due importance and dimension at the third world areas, ranging between the tropics. His claim of England as big as Madagascar or Greenland wider than Africa, are absolutely stupid arguments, valid only within a not learned community. The problem of Peters' projection is grounded much more in the social psychology (it is a Psychoanalytic problem) than in the field of science. How is it possible that a charlatan (from Oxford Dictionary: a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill) reached so great reputation only due to general human ignorance? That's the true question, no more! And I live in a country where ignorance has led us to the actual Prime Minister and I (and a great deal of italians) know exactly on my/our skin what ignorance may mean and where may lead! We need a psychologist not a scientist to study the matter posed by Stefan. I do hope to have express clearly my point of view. vladimiro Il giorno 22/ott/2010, alle ore 09.18, Stefan Müller ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear list, I am going to prepare a research project on the Peters projection controversy. Probably many of you know the story: In 1973 German historian Arno Peters (1916-2002) went to public with his world map projection, that have led for three decades to an intensive controversy on map qualities and on social impact to cartographic self-conception. Though vehement rejection by the cartographic scene his map became something like a “track record”. You find it on the cover of Willy Brandt’s North-South commission report in 1980, in Germany it caused a public debate on maps in TV news (in the End-1970s), the map has been propagated by Christian development organizations like Christian Aid and Oxfam (in Germany it is still distributed by the Evangelical Mission Agency), it has been published by the National Council of Churches (US), and it was distributed by UN organisations UNICEF and UNCTAD. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall-Peters_projection) Now I am looking for academic, political, and public statements on the projection, on Peters, and on the Peters controversy. Beside German cartography I am familiar with the Anglo-American academic discussion (e.g. A. Robinson, M. Monmonier, J. Crampton, P. Vujakovic, J.P. Snyder). Due to the Anglo-American/West-European focus of databases like JSTOR it is quite hard to get into discussions of the Spanish speaking world or the former colonized
[MapHist] Alai
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, I would like to come in touch with Cyrus Alai (General Maps of Persia). Is there anybody who may give me an email address, either sent him an email advising him that I would like to correspond with him? vladimiro___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
[MapHist] acquisition of files from mapsandimages
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, I learn from the Societies who run the website Mapsandimages (http://www.mapsandimages.it/) that since a few weeks is operative an option for purchasing files of the around 600 hundreds maps. They may be downloaded by the web and in different format and size. ciao vladimiro___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Article wanted (Gregson 1962)
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Susan, Autocad is (also) a sort of ruler, pencil and compass (a drawing set, in sum) drive by a computer. If you like to draw a perfect square, unlikely to be done by hand, autocad, archicad, Adobe Illustrator and a great deal of graphic softwares allow you to do it. May you send a copy of the paper also to me? Many thanks. vladimiro Il giorno 28/set/2010, alle ore 11.06, Susan Ford ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Luis The NLA (National library of Australia) holds this journal and as I was there today I have copied and emailed the article you wanted - though Vladimiro's comments on how to do it in Autocad are probably much more relevant! And surprising, as Autocad I presume was not written directly to support cartography. Regards Susan PhD candidate Classics The Australian National University - Original Message - From: Luis Angel Robles Macias lrobl...@uoc.edu Date: Monday, September 27, 2010 6:40 am Subject: [MapHist] Article wanted (Gregson 1962) To: maphist@geo.uu.nl maphist@geo.uu.nl Cc: alvesgas...@netcabo.pt This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Maphisters, I am trying to obtain the following short article published in 1962: Title: A method of plotting meridians and parallels on the Gnomonic projection Author: R.J. Gregson Journal: CARTOGRAPHY Volume: 4 Issue: 4 Pages: 155-156 My university library has requested it, unsuccessfully, to the following libraries: ·Australian National University Library ·Library of Congress ·British Library ·Bodleian Library As far as I have been able to gather, this “Cartography” journal was an Australian publication with ISSN 0069-0805. A few years ago it merged with “The Australian Surveyor”, giving as a result the Journal of Spatial Science, ISSN 1449-8596. I would greatly appreciate if somebody could provide some indication regarding the location or contents of this article. Best regards, Luis A. Robles Macías ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Article wanted (Gregson 1962)
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Robles Macias, I don't know where you may find that article but, from your query and knowing your interest, I can infer that you are interested in plotting a grid of a gnomonic projection. Being the Ortographic, Gnomonic and Stereographic projections the only pure projective projections of the earth on a plane surface, to draw them is an exercise of Descriptive Geometry. Judging from the date of the article (1962) I do believe that the author is not dealing with a software able to draw automatically the GP but with something very close to the manual methods used from the Renaissance onward. I teach projective geometry at the University and making projective projections of the sphere are among the exercises I give to my students, just to learn and become acquainted with geometrical drawing. If you may have easy access to a professor of Projective Geometry, he/she can explain the construction in one hour lesson. I do fear you need a person and not a book for all the books known to me on projections (and we have a great deal of choices and very good manuals on them, Snyder's ones are among the best) show you only the grid already drawn and explain you the mathematical formulas and the peculiarities of the projections but NO ONE explains the geometric (projective) approach to (construction of) them. I may try to find out some of the drawings of my students, choose the most clear, digitizing it and sent it to you, unless you may spend half a day in Venice (Italy). It would be a pleasure. Ciao. vladimiro Il giorno 26/set/2010, alle ore 22.39, Luis Angel Robles Macias ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Maphisters, I am trying to obtain the following short article published in 1962: Title: A method of plotting meridians and parallels on the Gnomonic projection Author: R.J. Gregson Journal: CARTOGRAPHY Volume: 4 Issue: 4 Pages: 155-156 My university library has requested it, unsuccessfully, to the following libraries: ·Australian National University Library ·Library of Congress ·British Library ·Bodleian Library As far as I have been able to gather, this “Cartography” journal was an Australian publication with ISSN 0069-0805. A few years ago it merged with “The Australian Surveyor”, giving as a result the Journal of Spatial Science, ISSN 1449-8596. I would greatly appreciate if somebody could provide some indication regarding the location or contents of this article. Best regards, Luis A. Robles Macías ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Article wanted (Gregson 1962)
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, Following my previous mail, I like just to point out (for the sake of precision and completeness) that among the projective projections of the sphere there is also the so called perspective projection, something resembling the third ptolemaic projection, but it is only a sort of mental exercise and a procedure allowed by the assumptions of projective geometry but of no practical use. In my knowledge no one has never drawn it (geometrically!). Nevertheless, it is the fourth projective projection of the sphere. vladimiro Il giorno 26/set/2010, alle ore 22.39, Luis Angel Robles Macias ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Maphisters, I am trying to obtain the following short article published in 1962: Title: A method of plotting meridians and parallels on the Gnomonic projection Author: R.J. Gregson Journal: CARTOGRAPHY Volume: 4 Issue: 4 Pages: 155-156 My university library has requested it, unsuccessfully, to the following libraries: ·Australian National University Library ·Library of Congress ·British Library ·Bodleian Library As far as I have been able to gather, this “Cartography” journal was an Australian publication with ISSN 0069-0805. A few years ago it merged with “The Australian Surveyor”, giving as a result the Journal of Spatial Science, ISSN 1449-8596. I would greatly appreciate if somebody could provide some indication regarding the location or contents of this article. Best regards, Luis A. Robles Macías ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Manuscript map questions
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Ovidiu, the question you pose is closely connected to the one you posted on 15th January of this year. I sent to the list the private answer I gave you because it is of general interest and still has its validity also for the bibliographical references. Anyway, the reply given by Matthew Champion is quite good. Please check whether you have blind line following the contour of any feature of the map: if so it means that, using the Matthew's words, the front surface has been traced over again with a metal pencil. How did you detect the date 1790? vladimiro 15th january 2010 Dear Ovidiu, The best reply to your querries is in an ancient work entirely devote to how to produce a map from the land survey to the instruments, scales, projections, kind of paper and its dimensions, engraving tools and so on: Mémorial Topographique et militaire, n. 5, Paris an XI (1803), for engraving techniques you may see the Chapter IV - Gravure, Notice sur la Gravure topographique et géographique, pp. 65-90, by Bacler Dalbe. You may find there not what we think (or suppose) was used for engraving maps but what was actually used and suggest to use for engraving maps. I have discussed that fundamental works for the birth of modern cartography in some recent works ( L’occhio mutevole: militari e mappe tra rivoluzione e restaurazione. In: La Cartografia europea tra primo Rinascimento e fine Illuminismo, ( ed.s) Diogo Ramado Curto, Angelo Cattaneo, André Ferrand Almeida, Firenze, Olschki 2003, pp. 229-244 and Cartography, Art and Mimesis. The Imitation of Nature, in Land Surveying in the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries, in: Observing Nature – The Osmotic Dynamics of Romanticism Representing Experience 1800 – 1850, (ed.) Erna Fiorentini, Berlin, Reimer 2007, pp. 57-71). About what you call master engraving, I found and described a series of manuscript sheets (late XVIII century) identical to the engravings; the manuscript were used as originals to be copied by the engravers (L’Italia nei manoscritti dell’Officina Topografica conservati nella Biblioteca Nazionale di Napoli. Napoli, Istituto Italiano per gli Studi Filosofici, 1985). They are on heavy paper and of a superb quality in drawing, I suppose that from that originals Neapolitan draftsmen drew copies on light paper to be used for the transposition on the copper. I think the last draft (to be used by the engravers) were destroyed during the operation of copying, so no copy of the last step should be survived . . . unless the last step was not carried on and somebody kept the light oiled paper. Linen oil was used (from Medieval time, see Cennino Cennini) to give transparency to the paper. best wishes vladimiro Il giorno 15/set/2010, alle ore 22.16, Ovidiu Sandor ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, I have recently come across a manuscript map that has raised, for me at least, a number of questions. It is an Italian manuscript, around 1790. Drawn on 71 sheets of paper (not very big sheets) and is, as stated, copied from Austrian sources. Total size is about 2,5 x 3,5 m. What is of interest are the following facts: - the paper used is very, very thin - the paper has a dark yellow/brownish look and it is reasonable to assume that it has been oiled (this is being tested chemically right now) - on the back of each sheet, the paper has been covered with black colour (probably charcoal or similar, again under testing); some sheets have the black covering all of the back while most have it on those areas where there is something drawn on the front side, that is, if a certain area of the front does not have lines or text, then the back would not have the black colour in that area (the attached sheet does not have black on the back in the left top corner, for example) - the map is not finished and does not look to have tried to be a final map, but rather a draft Now, here are the questions: What use would the oiled, thin paper have? What use would the black colour on the back have? I suppose this might be a stage in the process of issuing some sort of final map (manuscript or printed). Would such a supposition stand in light of other similar maps? How would military maps be prepared at that time? I would also appreciate any suggestions of literature covering these or related issues. I attach the photo of one of the sheets. I have a higher resolution scan but would email it only if requested, in order not to burden the mailboxes of maphisters. Many thanks and kind regards, Ovidiu Sandor
Re: [MapHist] Cassini Projection, Ordnance Survey (GB), and angels
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Francis, your are unique! What a beautiful finding. vladimiro Il giorno 24/ago/2010, alle ore 21.38, Francis Herbert ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + According to a (published) letter written to the editor of a navigation magazine a few years ago – “The Ordnance Survey of Great Britain used the Cassini projection for its County Series of maps on the 1:2,500 scale . . . Each county in Britain was surveyed separately and the inevitable distortions meant that the maps did not fit together too well at their county borders . . . because the Cassini projection stretches the map in only one direction, it distorts the angels [sic] and so makes it difficult to measure distances and bearings accurately . . .” One wonders whether any angels subsequently wrote to the magazine editor to confirm they had, indeed, became distorted and lost their bearings. Or did they overcome Cassini’s shortcoming with its margins of error, and hone their navigational skills regardless? We may never know . . . Francis Herbert ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
[MapHist] San'Anatolia Meeting
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, the following message, related to the fifth annual meeting of Collezionisti Italiani di Cartografia Antica is at http://home.earthlink.net/~docktor/index.htm June 25-26, 2010 – Perugia The Centro Italiano per gli studi storico-geografici, Società Geografica Italiana, Biblioteca Augusta – Perugia,Associazione “Roberto Almagià” Collezionisti Italiani di Cartografia Antica, and Sant’Anatolia di Narco (Perugia) announce the 5th meeting about Ancient Cartography and Collecting in Italy. Friday June 25th: 17,30 opening of the exhibition: Ornamental Apparatus: Figures and Decorations in Italian Cartography from XV to XIX centuries, Chiesa Madonna delle Grazie, Claudio Cerreti (Università Roma Tre) and Maurizio Tarantino (Direttore Biblioteca Augusta di Perugia) 19,00 opening of the exhibition: Maps of cieties and territories of Umbria in the manuscript by Cipriano Piccolpasso, Sala Campani, Convento di Santa Croce – Sant’Anatolia di Narco. Saturday June 26th: Istituto Agrario, sala conferenze, Ornamental Apparatus: Figures and Decorations in Italian Cartography from XV to XIX 10,30 – I Session Lucia Nuti (Università di Pisa) Figures and Decorations in Urban maps and views (XVI-XVIII c.) Peter Barber (Head Map Collections – British Library) Magnificent Maps: Power and Decorations in European Carrtography from XV to XX centuries Paola Valenti (Università IUAV di Venezia) A so far unknown “Quotation”from Raffaello in a map dated 1585 16,30 – II Session Marica Milanesi (Università di Pavia) Skys, Lands and Seas in maps and globes by Vincenzo Coronelli Vladimiro Valerio (Università IUAV di Venezia) Neoclassicism and Rhetoric in Neapolitan frontispieces and cartouches between Ancien Regime and Restoration 21,30 Conference Hall Assembly Association “Roberto Almagià” Italian Collector of Ancient Cartography Additional information from Vladimiro Valerio, Dipartimento di Storia della Architettura, San Polo 2468 - Palazzo Badoer, 30125 Venezia; tel. + 39 041 2571418, fax 041 719044. The conference language will be Italian. Bold is mine, ciao vladimiro___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
[MapHist] Artemidorus' map
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, is there anybody who knows why any historian of cartography has never studied the so called map of the so called Artemidorus' Papyrus? Apart from Franco Farinelli (who is a philosopher-geographer) Bärbel Kramer, Claudio Gallazzi and Salvatore Settis (who are historian, papyrologist and historian of art) Richard Talbert (who is an ancient historian and classicist) anybody else seems to have analyzed the map. Should the map be authentic it leeds to a revolution on the history of the Roman World, not only from the mere cartographical point of view but from the cultural and social ones. It means the capacity and the will to survey at large scale (not urban or architectural scale!, as in the cadasters and in the Forma Urbis Romae) a territory. The maps resembles the first modern Renaissance surveys; see the map by Giovanni Pesato in the Biblioteca Comunale of Treviso, of the half of XV century (published in HoC vol.III), or a military map of the XVIII-XIX centuries. I do wonder why the silence. Now are ten years from the first appearence in Imago Mundi of an article on that map. vladimiro - Bärbel Kramer, The Earliest known map of Spain (?) and the Geography of Artemidorus of Ephesus on Papyrus, Imago Mundi (2001), pp. 115-120. - Franco Farinelli, Sulla Tradizione Roaman dei Segni Cartografici, Quaderni di Storia 66 (2007), pp. 353-370 - Il papiro di Artemidoro (P. Artemid.) / editors Claudio Gallazzi, Bärbel Kramer, Salvatore Settis, Milano, LED 2008, pp. 275-308. - Richard Talbert, P. Artemid.: The Map, in Images and Text in the Artemidorus Papyrus: Working papers on P. Artemid. (St John's College, Oxford, 2008), ed. Brodersen Kai and Jas Elsner, Stuttgart, Steiner, 2009, pp. 57-64.___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Artemidorus' map
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Tom, it is exactly what I meant! As several scholars, like you, believe that Romans constructed and used maps in modern terms and to scale (engeneering, tools of power, administrative and military purposes, etc.) the map on the papyrus (30x80 cm roughly) should be acclaimed worldwide as a great discovery, the proof of what has been only been argued till now. I remind you that almost nothing has in our hands from Greek and Roman world. As a reminder, from History of Cartography - vol. I (1987): The foundation of theoretical Cartography in Archaic and Classic Greece, pp.130-147, no maps The growth of an empirical cartography in Hellenistic Greece, pp. 148-160, no maps Greek Cartography in the Early Roman World, pp. 161-176, no maps The Culmination of Greek Cartography in Ptolemy, pp.177-200, Ptolemaic maps (but from late Middle Age) Maps in the Service of the State: Roman Cartography to the end of Augustan Era, pp.201-211, one map Roman Large scale mapping in the Early Empire, pp. 212-233, four images Itineraries and Geographical Maps in the Early and Late Roman Empire, pp. 234-257, three maps (Peutinger table, Dura Europos schield) 127 pages devoted to cartography from the VIII secolo BC to the IV secolo AD; 1200 years covered by a tens of so called “maps”. Once more, I wonder why we are not flowed, submerged by hundreds articles on that event: a discovery of a map from the Roman World. Why? vladimiro Il giorno 05/apr/10, alle ore 18:24, Tom Ikins ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Vladimiro, While I can't answer why there hasn't been more published, I can confirm that the Romans were certainly capable of large scale surveys. The planning and execution of their road network required those same skills. My study of the British section of the Ravenna Cosmography indicates that the text was sampled from a map divided into areas approximately 1X2 degrees increasing in distortion from south to north, though less distorted that Ptolemy's representation. (He erred in re-assembling his data by taking a piece of Northumberland coast and inserting it into southern Scotland.) -- Tom Ikins The Roman Map of Britain http://www.romanmap.com ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Skelton and the Commisao de Estudos de Coordenacao des Centros de Cartografia Antiga
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Paul, Unfortunately I have not with me in Venice the volumes of History of Portuguese Cartography (Coimbra 1969-)by Armando Cortesao, thus I cannot check it for you, but I suggest you to have a look at that volumes as I remeber that in the first one Cortesao spoke diffusely about contemporaries scholars (biographies, I mean) and activities in the history of cartography all around the world May be you may find some more news on Skelton and the activity of that Commisao that sounds almost portuguese. Furthermore, in spite of the narrow title (portuguese cartography) those volumes are a mine of information on other countries and their cartographical output etc. That work was very much appreciated by our missing friend David Woodward. Ciao. vladimiro Il giorno 27/gen/10, alle ore 11:06, Paul van den Brink ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I'm preparing an article for Caert-Thresoor on the history of the Dutch Commission for the History of Cartography that was founded in 1959 and still exists today. This commission was founded by Bert van 't Hoff (chairman) and Cor Koeman (secretary). In November 1960 Koeman the commission was approached by R.A. Skelton - acting as secretary of the Commisao de Estudos de Coordenacao des Centros de Cartografia Antiga. This commission was established at the Congress of the History of Discoveries that was held in Lisbon earlier thas year, with the main purpose to ensure that, should any early cartographic document be lost, destroyed or damaged, a photographic reproduction shall be available which will, as nearly as possible, serve the purposes of study as efficaciously as the original. This aim was elaborated in detail in a stencilled two-page memorandum signed by Skelton and dated 4 october 1960. The proposal was discussed and adopted by the Dutch commission. One of the outcomes was that the commission addressed the conservation of Dutch map collections on a formal level to which end specific guidlines were discussed with Dutch map curators. Another result was that a programm for the reproduction for old maps was drafted, that resulted in the facsimilation of several map series from the 18th and 19th centuries. Although I have studied the correspondance between Skelton, Koeman and Van 't Hoff (using the personal archives of the latter two) it is remarkable that there are only few references to the activities of the Commisao de Estudos de Coordenacao des Centros de Cartografia Antiga. Therefore: Is anyone known with the general activities and output of this Commisao and Skeltons role in particular? Sincere Paul van den Brink Explokart Reasearch Team University of Utrecht The Netherlands ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Re: [EXLIBRIS-L] World's Largest Book
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I am not sure that Klencke atlas goes on show for the first time. If I am not wrong the Klencke Atlas was displayed (or at least was there!) in the exhibition of maps in the Royal Palace in Milan (Marica Milanesi editor of the catalogue). I have been one of the happy few who had the opportunity to open it and to study some maps of Italy (one just appears in the photo) for my studies on neapolitan plans and views and remember quite well the huge wood case with wheels to be moved. vladimiro Il giorno 27/gen/10, alle ore 16:37, Joel Kovarsky ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Forwarded from ExLibris-L. Most of you on MapHist will recognize some of the book-ends. The photo appears to be the same shot for The Map Book, edited by Peter Barber, on p. 165. Joel Kovarsky On 1/27/2010 10:23 AM, White, Eric wrote: The World's largest book is worth a look... http:// www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jan/26/klencke-atlas-british-library- exhibition Eric White Bridwell Library ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Question on engraving
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Ovidiu, The best reply to your querries is in an ancient work entirely devote to how to produce a map from the land survey to the instruments, scales, projections, kind of paper and its dimensions, engraving tools and so on: Mémorial Topographique et militaire, n. 5, Paris an XI (1803), for engraving techniques you may see the Chapter IV - Gravure, Notice sur la Gravure topographique et géographique, pp. 65-90, by Bacler Dalbe. You may find there not what we think (or suppose) was used for engraving maps but what was actually used and suggest to use for engraving maps. I have discussed that fundamental works for modern cartography in some recent works ( L’occhio mutevole: militari e mappe tra rivoluzione e restaurazione. In: La Cartografia europea tra primo Rinascimento e fine Illuminismo, ( ed.s) Diogo Ramado Curto, Angelo Cattaneo, André Ferrand Almeida, Firenze, Olschki 2003, pp. 229-244 and Cartography, Art and Mimesis. The Imitation of Nature, in Land Surveying in the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries, in: Observing Nature – The Osmotic Dynamics of Romanticism Representing Experience 1800 – 1850, (ed.) Erna Fiorentini, Berlin, Reimer 2007, pp. 57-71). About what you call master engraving, I found and described a series of manuscript sheets (late XVIII century) identical to the engravings; the manuscript were used as originals to be copied by the engravers (L’Italia nei manoscritti dell’Officina Topografica conservati nella Biblioteca Nazionale di Napoli. Napoli, Istituto Italiano per gli Studi Filosofici, 1985). They are on heavy paper and of a superb quality in drawing, I suppose that from that originals Neapolitan draftsmen drew copies on light paper to be used for the transposition on the copper. I think the last draft (to be used by the engravers) were destroyed during the operation of copying, so no copy of the last step should be survived . . . unless the last step was not carried on and somebody kept the light oiled paper. Linen oil was used (from Medieval time, see Cennino Cennini) to give transparency to the paper. best wishes vladimiro Il giorno 15/gen/10, alle ore 00:00, Ovidiu Sandor ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, I have a question regarding some details of the engraving process used in maps. As stated in a number of studies on maps, the engraver would get from the cartographer or editor a hand-drawn map that he would engrave on the plate. My first question is if the engraving would be identical with the hand-drawn master or if certain elements (like shape of letters, their position, certain graphical elements) would be different in the engraving then in the master drawing? So basically, would these be identical or not? The second question is if the master drawing would survive the engraving process or not? My interest is around a map engraved in Amsterdam, around 1730 and is an etching, as far as I can tell. I know that certain engravers would place the master drawing (done on thin paper) onto the wax applied on the copper plate and would trace the lines on the master drawing with the etching needle. Is it a correct understanding of the process used for map engraving as well? Thirdly, are there any known examples of such master drawing (sorry for the term used, I am not aware of any established one)? Many thanks, Ovidiu Sandor ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Question on engraving
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Ovidiu, I had the chance to discover a great deal of manuscript maps relating to the first national survey in the kingdom of Naples which took place between 1781 and 1812. The gook luck was that I found any step of the mapping, from the plan, to the key sheet, to the land survey, to the first draft in which the graphic material were collected, to the draft of the single sheet for the engravers, up to the copperplates, the last still preserved in the Istituto Geografico Militare in Florence. Even the cost ofany of the above operation is known to me grace to the bank payment preserved in Neapolitan archives. I do believe it is a unique in the world! The draft of any single sheet is quite similar to the print. They also bear the frame with geographical coordinates and the grid. I also found one draft of a loose sheet (Carta dell'Agro Napoletano, engraved in 1794) whose print bears a superb allegorical frontespiece, missing in the manuscript. The reason is that, as I learned from archive records, the allegorical title and frontespieces of any maps (in Naples) were commissioned to painters and artists; then the drawing was submitted to a commission ruled by Georg Hackert wich decided the quality of the drawing and its value. Thus, I think that it is normal that in your manuscript map all the decorations are missing. It may well be (as in the Neapolitan cases) a draft ready for the engraver. As I already wrote in my previous message, from this final draft were drawn a copy on very thin paper (usually Dutch paper, in Naples) made transparent with the use of oil. I have found one of this last draft of a sheet of the Atlante geografico del Regno di Napoli (whose printed version is dated 1807) but completely browned due to the attack of the oil. even in this case the draft in absolutely identical to the printed version. Information of the above drafts may be found in: V. Valerio, L’Italia nei manoscritti dell’Officina Topografica conservati nella Biblioteca Nazionale di Napoli. Napoli, Istituto Italiano per gli Studi Filosofici, 1985, and in Società Uomini e Istituzioni Cartografiche nel Mezzogiorno d’Italia. Firenze, Istituto Geografico Militare, 1993. vladimiro Il giorno 15/gen/10, alle ore 10:00, Ovidiu Sandor ha scritto: Dear Vladimiro, your answer is of great help, as always. I would like to get your opinion providing you with some more detailed information. It is about a printed map, around 1730 in Amsterdam. A manuscript version of the map has surfaced in a German library. It is on very thin paper. It is almost identical to the printed map. All lines, letters, etc. are identical. It is only that the manuscript map does not have some of the decorations on the map. For example, the cartouche is not present even if the text of the cartouche is present. Also, the manuscript is all in black ink except some villages in the upper part where the little circle indicating the village was coloured in red. But only in that part of the map. Now, we have two theories: one that this is a manuscript copy of the printed map or second, that this is one of the master drawings that was used in the process of making the copper plate. One would wonder why would someone copy the printed version by hand? It is nicely done work so it must have taken some time to copy all that information. In the same time, the fact that the decorations are missing and especially the fact that the person making the manuscript has colored it does not seem to indicate that it was used in the making of the map. Ovidiu On 15/01/10 10:49, Vladimiro Valerio wrote: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear Ovidiu, The best reply to your querries is in an ancient work entirely devote to how to produce a map from the land survey to the instruments, scales, projections, kind of paper and its dimensions, engraving tools and so on: Mémorial Topographique et militaire, n. 5, Paris an XI (1803), for engraving techniques you may see the Chapter IV - Gravure, Notice sur la Gravure topographique et géographique, pp. 65-90, by Bacler Dalbe. You may find there not what we think (or suppose) was used for engraving maps but what was actually used and suggest to use for engraving maps. I have discussed that fundamental works for modern cartography in some recent works ( L’occhio mutevole: militari e mappe tra rivoluzione e restaurazione. In: La Cartografia europea tra primo Rinascimento e fine Illuminismo, ( ed.s) Diogo Ramado Curto, Angelo Cattaneo, André Ferrand Almeida, Firenze, Olschki 2003, pp. 229-244 and Cartography, Art
Re: [MapHist] Dr. Tomasz Niewodniczanski
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + . . . very sad news to all the people who had the opportunity to met and know him. vladimiro Il giorno 06/gen/10, alle ore 15:03, Tony Campbell ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear MapHist, It is with great sadness that we announce the death, during the night, on 2/3 January 2010, of Dr. Tomasz Niewodniczanski, aged 77. The funeral will take place in Bitburg on 11th January at 14:00. He was a man of Renaissance; Phd of Physical science, a manager of a large company, a collector of maps, atlases and archives, an expert in political history and a patriot of Central Europe. He was decorated 3 Commander's Crosses by presidents of: Germany (2002), Lithuania (2004) and Poland (2005). Lucyna Szaniawska Lucyna Szaniawska National Library of Poland Map Department al. Niepodleglosci 213 02-086 Warszawa POLAND lucyna-szaniaw...@wp.pl [posted on behalf of Lucyna, who had technical difficulties] ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Giuseppe Longhi -- Viena D'Austria (ca 1683) (Printer in Bologna)
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Barry, in spite of his rich tipographical and cartographical production, quite a few is knwon and written on Giuseppe Longhi printer and publisher active in Bologna in the second half of the XVII century. Among the other a curious treatise on perspective in 1683. No monograph, or chapter, devoted to him is known to me. He published in 1676, as already stated, a wall Map of Italy (12 sheets) by Matthaeus Greuter (first edition Rome, 1630) and several city views all following to the scheme adopted by Dutch artists and publishers in a series of famous four sheets panoramas of the first quarter of the century. I may add to the klist supplied by Pat Morris the views of Genova, Venice, Naples ans Bologna. I may just suggest as reference, from where I took the information above, E. Bellucci, V. Valerio, Piante e vedute di Napoli dal 1600 al 1699. La città teatro, Electa Napoli 2007 ( Dutch panoramas pp. 37-39; Greuter map of Italy pp. 78, 79; other city views pp. 120, 121) vladimiro Il giorno 19/nov/09, alle ore 21:06, Patrick Morris ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Barry, Following are three Longhi maps held by the Newberry Library -- Vienna in Avstria. In Bologna: nella stamperia del Longhi, 1678. Authors: Longhi, Giuseppe, fl. 1670-1680 -- Bevilacqua, Eugenia -- Franco Novacco Map Collection (Newberry Library). 1 view ; 358 x 1,102 mm. (extent of print), on composite sheet 609 x 1,148 mm. Engraved view assembled with letterpress text (77 lines in 4 columns). Added letterpress title: Nuova, e vera descrizione della famosissima citta di Vienna. Letterpress imprint appears below text. Bottom of view trimmed, possibly resulting in loss of variant imprint. View and text each printed on 2 sheets; 4 sheets subsequently assembled as 1 composite sheet. Ex Bevilacqua (perhaps geographer Eugenia Bevilacqua?). Forms part of the Franco Novacco Map Collection (Newberry Library). Novacco 6F 22 Pragva capitale in Boemia. Bologna: appresso Gioseffo Longhi, 1671. Authors: Longhi, Giuseppe, fl. 1670-1680 -- Bevilacqua, Eugenia -- Franco Novacco Map Collection (Newberry Library). 1 view ; 364 x 997 mm. (neat line), on composite sheet 610 x 1,117 mm. Engraved view assembled with letterpress text (94 lines in 4 columns). Added letterpress title: Breve descrizione, e fondazione della citta di Pragva. Letterpress imprint below text: In Bologna, Nella Stamperia del Longhi. Con licenza de' Superiori. View and text each printed on 2 sheets; 4 sheets subsequently assembled as 1 composite sheet. Ex Bevilacqua (perhaps geographer Eugenia Bevilacqua?). Forms part of the Franco Novacco Map Collection (Newberry Library). Novacco 6F 23 Nova totivs orbis tabvla / Olim á Friderico de Wit ... ; Carolus Scottus Sculpsit. Buoniae [Bologna]: Iosephi Longi, [ca. 1680]. Authors: Wit, Frederik de -- Longhi, Giuseppe, fl. 1670-1680 -- Scotti, Carlo -- Ludwig Rosenthal's Antiquariat -- Franco Novacco Map Collection (Newberry Library). 1 map : hand col. ; 2 hemispheres each ca. 935 mm. in diam. (neat line), on composite sheet ca. 1,350 x ca. 2,000 mm. Printed in 12 sheets and several border strips; trimmed and joined to form composite sheet. Some sections damaged with loss of printed detail, later filled in by hand. Cf. Shirley 471. Ex Rosenthal. Forms part of the Franco Novacco Map Collection (Newberry Library). Novacco 9F 1 All best, Pat Morris -- == Patrick A. Morris Map Cataloger and Reference Librarian The Newberry Library 60 W. Walton Street Chicago, Illinois 60610-7324 312-255-3674 morr...@newberry.org Search our map catalog at www.biblioserver.com/newberry Newberry Library web site: www.newberry.org Barry L. Ruderman wrote: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I'm working on a map depicting the Battle of Vienna (September 1683) engraved by Giuseppe Longhi in Bologna. http://www.raremaps.com/gallery/enlarge/22461 I note that Longhi published a 12 sheet copy of De Wit's map of 1660 (or the Rossi copy of the map--Shirley 471) and also a copy of Matteo Greutter's wall map of Italy (noted by Shirley). However, I have not found other examples of his cartographic work. I would be most appreciative for additional information or citations to references concerning other maps by Longhi or other locations of his Viena D'Austria battle map. Thank you in advance. Barry Ruderman Barry Lawrence Ruderman Antique Maps Inc. 7463 Girard Avenue La Jolla, CA 92037 (USA) b...@raremaps.com
Re: [MapHist] Waldseemueller Map Mystery Resolved
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Be care! We may reasonably infer almost everything from anything. A reasonable or likely story is quite different from an evidenced history. vladimiro Il giorno 03/nov/09, alle ore 17:59, monet...@aol.com ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Harold: The self-evident reason for the lack of evidence is the idea that for most of history (and before) many of the probably many such voyages were highly secret. An analogy might be that there may be no publicly available charts showing voyages beneath a polar ice-cap during some unspecified modern period; however, one would not necessarily conclude that such trips did not occur but instead could reasonably infer from context that they very likely did. The lack of any explicit evidence is in itself, in the right context, evidence; one must then look for implicit , extrapolated or disguised evidence , of which there is perhaps a great deal, and make it explicit. David Suter (artist) + In a message dated 11/3/09 10:18:54 AM, crame...@verizon.net writes: Hello: I think most people who read or work in history have long recognized that there were likely any number of unrecorded pre-Magellan and pre-Columbus voyages to and around the Americas by Portugal, Spain, Bristol, the Norse, and any number of fishermen. The problem is that there is no concrete historical evidence for them, so they can't be recognized as having occurred. I don't see much new evidence presented here that a voyage occurred. YT Harold Cramer ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Gdańsk · Danzig
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + thanks to all for hints and suggestions received. I have enough material to study the matter. vladimiro Il giorno 13/ott/09, alle ore 14:56, Karen and David ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + One can also search Harvard's HOLLIS catalog for the title Harvard Map Collection digital maps. Poland. Gdansk to find five digital images of maps from 1730 to 1886. David Cobb - Original Message - From: Joel Kovarsky j...@theprimemeridian.com To: Discussion group for map history maphist@geo.uu.nl Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Gdańsk · Danzig This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I initially thought this would not work via www.worldcat.org (the free version), but it did. Go to the site, and use advanced search. Configure the dropdown format to map, and use gdansk as a keyword (not title). A number of relevant hits come up (since they have geographical cross indexing to Danzig). You can set the dates, as I did, from 1500-1940, and a number of relevant hits come up. While you cannot access images (and that is not available for this group of maps even via the subscription version of WorldCat), you can at least see the locations of holding libraries, and work from there. Joel Kovarsky Vladimiro Valerio wrote: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Dear all, I am currently supervising a doctoral thesis in urban planning and I need some help on historical maps and images of Gdańsk · Danzig up to WWII; any contribution will be very much appreciated: - websites - public and private collections - books vladimiro ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
Re: [MapHist] Bar Scale Data ?
This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Very good, Francis, It is just whst I too suspected but, a great BUT, Kin Edwin wrote: This interval to the left of 0 is also the same distance as those intervals on the right side of the 0. This description doesn't apply to your (my) hypothesis. May Kim send us an image? vladimiro Il giorno 25/ago/09, alle ore 20:00, Francis Herbert ha scritto: This is a MapHist list message (when you hit 'reply' you're replying to the whole list) o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I suspect that you are describing a fairly common feature of many graphic map scale-bars in whatever measures. The extending of the bar to the left of the '0' is usually made to supply more detailed marked/ticked sub-divisions to those fewer and general ticked scale- bar divisions to the right (and/or vice-versa). Thus, if the left-hand extension is in individual unit ticks of 1 (up to 10) miles it facilitates the calculation of 'abnormal' mileage distances - such as even-numbered 12 or 16 miles - when combined by reading off the right-hand generalized distances (if, e.g., they are multiples of odd-numbered 5-mile unit ticks). Not so easy to explain over the internet; but find a text book or manual on map-reading - or even Ed Redmond . . .:) Francis Herbert (former curator of maps somewhere) -Original Message- From: maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl [mailto:maphist-boun...@geo.uu.nl] On Behalf Of Kim H. Edwin Sent: 25 August 2009 17:48 To: maphist@geo.uu.nl Subject: [MapHist] Bar Scale Data ? Dear Mapsters, While working on some Pictorial Maps, I found a couple from the 1940's which have bar scales extended left of the traditional 0 distance. This interval to the left of 0 is also the same distance as those intervals on the right side of the 0. Would someone please let me know what this is called and why it is done? Kim Edwin, Library Technician Library of Congress, Geography Map Division 202-707-6277 ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist ___ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
