Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 16:00:26 + Rick Knoble via Mercedes
 wrote:

> I also have this one for the mower and motorcycle.
> 
> https://m.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200332201_200332201
> 
> I caught it on sale for $20.

I did, too, and now regret I bought only two ...


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I have the second one, I think we got them in the same sale. What I thought 
was another output for cables appears to be a temperature sensor.
The description suggests its okay to parallel them. I may give that a shot.
-Curt

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021, 11:01:11 AM EST, Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 If they are identical batteries, it shouldn't matter. I have this one I picked 
up a few years ago, it will maintain four batteries.

I think I paid $55.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005EKY1EM?psc=1=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

I also have this one for the mower and motorcycle.

https://m.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200332201_200332201

I caught it on sale for $20.

Rick

From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: February 16, 2021 9:12 AM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: curtlud...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

I guess I could get another output for the Minder, I'm pretty sure it supports 
2. Otherwise I want to keep the batteries fairly balanced. If I leave them on 
too long I'll forget and mess up the balance.

-Curt

    On Tuesday, February 16, 2021, 12:02:37 AM EST, Craig via Mercedes 
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:

 On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 01:14:43 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:

> At the end of the season I'll put them on the Minder for a week each.

The longer you have them on the BatteryMINDer, the more they will be
desulfated. You can leave them on indefinitely.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

If they are identical batteries, it shouldn't matter. I have this one I picked 
up a few years ago, it will maintain four batteries.

I think I paid $55.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005EKY1EM?psc=1=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

I also have this one for the mower and motorcycle.

https://m.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200332201_200332201

I caught it on sale for $20.

Rick

From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: February 16, 2021 9:12 AM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: curtlud...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

I guess I could get another output for the Minder, I'm pretty sure it supports 
2. Otherwise I want to keep the batteries fairly balanced. If I leave them on 
too long I'll forget and mess up the balance.

-Curt

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021, 12:02:37 AM EST, Craig via Mercedes 
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:

 On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 01:14:43 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:

> At the end of the season I'll put them on the Minder for a week each.

The longer you have them on the BatteryMINDer, the more they will be
desulfated. You can leave them on indefinitely.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I guess I could get another output for the Minder, I'm pretty sure it supports 
2. Otherwise I want to keep the batteries fairly balanced. If I leave them on 
too long I'll forget and mess up the balance.

-Curt

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021, 12:02:37 AM EST, Craig via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 01:14:43 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 wrote:

> At the end of the season I'll put them on the Minder for a week each.

The longer you have them on the BatteryMINDer, the more they will be
desulfated. You can leave them on indefinitely.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

This is a photo of the LPG system on Big Bertha:

http://formicapeak.com/~jimc/genset/genlpg.jpg 


Liquid feed from the forklift tank (striped hose) goes through a fuel filter
and electrical shutoff valve combo and then directly, via copper, into
the vaporizer.  (Big round can, with primer button in middle.)

This is plumbed into the heater loop of the Hercules engine, the other
two hoses, and vapor comes out the bottom into a hose that snakes up
to the propane carburetor.  So far as I know, this is the 'good stuff'.

When I got it the vaporizer was upside down, so any contamination in
the fuel would be trapped inside.  Now it runs out the bottom into that
hose, where it's either sucked into the engine or puddles there until
I pull the hose off and drain it.

-- Jim

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Sunspot 25 is starting, they're coming back! (Means skip will be increasing
so I can radio my friends down under in the mornings and evenings).

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 8:38 PM Rick Knoble via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Actually it is caused by a bifurcation of the polar vortex due to sunspots
> or the lack thereof. Ocean currents, el niño, la niña and such play a role
> too.
>
>
> Rick
>
>

-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

“Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
Von Braun
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 02:38:09 + Rick Knoble via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Actually it is caused by a bifurcation of the polar vortex due to
> sunspots or the lack thereof. Ocean currents, el niño, la niña and such
> play a role too.

Quoting a Ph.D. physicist from my other list (Gordon Fulks on his Global
Warming Realists list) as he responded to one of my postings,

  Dear Craig,

  Your cold is much more impressive than ours, with wind
  chills forecast as low as -30 F.  But we are both running
  far below normal, thanks to bitterly cold arctic air.

  Those who still 'believe in Global Warming' should realize
  that events like this are unlikely to impossible in a world
  warmed by carbon dioxide.

  They have suddenly become more likely thanks to cooler
  La Nina sea surface temperatures in the tropical Pacific
  near Peru and the accompanying dramatic drop in the global
  temperature anomaly of the lower atmosphere.

  Five years ago, we were enjoying an unusually warm February
  global anomaly, thanks to the Super El Nino of 2016.  But
  sooner or later, a dramatic La Nina follows a Super El Nino.
  It happened more quickly after the Super El Nino of 1998.

  In Oregon, we are reaching lows not seen since 2014, namely
  before the buildup to the El Nino of 2016.  In some cases,
  our lows are record daily lows.

  Stay warm.  We are both supposed to return to more normal
  temperatures in a few days.

  Gordon


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 19:48:33 -0500 Meade Dillon via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Well, with a completely serious and straight face, this cold weather is
> due to [surprise!] GLOBAL WARMING (aka Climate Change)!
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/blackouts-cascade-beyond-texas-in-deepening-power-crisis/ar-BB1dGFEu

They’ve all underscored how vulnerable the world has become
in the face of increasingly unpredictable weather brought on
by climate change

Hogwash.

and are raising questions about the global push to electrify
everything from transportation to heating and cooling.

And well they should. They should also raise questions about the
viability of "green" energy sources and demonstrate the foolishness
of forcing everyone and everything to them.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 23:58:41 -0600 OK Don via Mercedes
 wrote:

> All the propane powered genny sets that I've read the specs on say they
> require a liquid propane line, not the gas.

Our generator south of Calhan, Colorado, used a 15 psi vapor regulator
which then fed a demand regulator for the carburetor.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 01:14:43 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 wrote:

> At the end of the season I'll put them on the Minder for a week each.

The longer you have them on the BatteryMINDer, the more they will be
desulfated. You can leave them on indefinitely.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:21:45 -0500 Scott Ritchey via Mercedes
 wrote:

> An empty tank could hold air, which could support combustion.  Also, air
> (which won't condense) would screw-up the filling process.  But purging
> is not a big deal (or it wasn't in the old days) as the heavier LP gas
> forces air out the top.  I don't know what they do now with overfill
> protection valves.

The 500 gallon and 1000 gallon tanks our landlord had here did not have
overfill protection valves -- the delivery fellow was very careful to
watch the tank gauge.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Actually it is caused by a bifurcation of the polar vortex due to sunspots or 
the lack thereof. Ocean currents, el niño, la niña and such play a role too.


Rick

From: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: February 15, 2021 8:23 PM
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: dwight.gi...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

Yes that seems right

Dwight Giles Jr.
Wickford RI

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 7:49 PM Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Well, with a completely serious and straight face, this cold weather is due
> to [surprise!] GLOBAL WARMING (aka Climate Change)!
>
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/blackouts-cascade-beyond-texas-in-deepening-power-crisis/ar-BB1dGFEu
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 4:13 PM Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow
> > blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30
> > minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up
> > having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It
> would
> > Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you pay
> > for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood
> around
> > for use in the case of emergency.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Dwight Giles via Mercedes]

Yes that seems right

Dwight Giles Jr.
Wickford RI

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 7:49 PM Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Well, with a completely serious and straight face, this cold weather is due
> to [surprise!] GLOBAL WARMING (aka Climate Change)!
>
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/blackouts-cascade-beyond-texas-in-deepening-power-crisis/ar-BB1dGFEu
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 4:13 PM Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow
> > blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30
> > minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up
> > having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It
> would
> > Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you pay
> > for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood
> around
> > for use in the case of emergency.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Well, with a completely serious and straight face, this cold weather is due
to [surprise!] GLOBAL WARMING (aka Climate Change)!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/blackouts-cascade-beyond-texas-in-deepening-power-crisis/ar-BB1dGFEu

-
Max
Charleston SC


On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 4:13 PM Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow
> blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30
> minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up
> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It would
> Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you pay
> for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood around
> for use in the case of emergency.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Dwight Giles via Mercedes]

We have never had to have ours certified in 17 years across 2 different
suppliers.

Dwight Giles Jr.
Wickford RI

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 2:13 PM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> There are two situations.  Portable tanks need periodic recertification
> per DOT.  Not sue of exact size cutoff but tanks for 100 lb and below are
> certainly in that category.  The manufacture date and any subsequent recert
> dates are stamped on the tank collar.  Stationary tanks (maybe 250 gal and
> up) are certified under ASME (not DOT) when made and don't require periodic
> recertification.  But, as discussed here, states and companies may have
> requirements.  I know the tech leak-tested all the plumbing between tank
> and appliances when ours was installed.  ASME tanks have thicker metal so a
> visual inspection (perhaps with tapping) and sniffer (a tool) test are
> probably enough, but rules vary.  Buried tanks can't really be inspected
> but a sniffer should reveal leaks.  If you own the tank all this is your
> responsibility but that should also get a better price on LP.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 8:29 AM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
>
> Seems like one thing I have run into with buying a tank of Craigslist or
> Fakebook is it’s hard to tell if it’s certified or whatever and if a
> propane company will fill it.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Feb 15, 2021, at 2:46 AM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > If a big propane tank is rented and you terminate service, the LP
> company usually comes and picks up and hauls off the whole tank, even part
> full.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
> > Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 9:08 PM
> > To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> >
> > More shop propane questions. I am not sure what the PO of Okie acres
> did, i see no evidence of a big propane tank being installed on the
> property. There is a gas line connection at the back of the shop and I
> suspect maybe they used those 100lb tanks and just took them down and
> filled them. Would this be the way to go or get a big permanent tank? Will
> these 100lb tanks run these big overhead heaters? I would probably only
> actually run one of them, not both at the same time.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>  This reminds me of a question about tanks.I've got 4x 100# tanks that
> have been on the farm, well probably 50 years. Are they useful for
> refilling or should I send them for recycling? We've never refilled them
> for the camp because they're hard to handle and we only use 2x 20# cans in
> a normal week at camp. Actually before we got the fridge we wouldn't even
> use 2 full tanks.
> >>
> >> -Curt
> >>
> >>   On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:18:07 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via
> Mercedes  wrote:
> >>
> >> Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the
> backup system and which don't (unless you get a really big generator).  The
> typical home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is almost 50KW.  My
> house already had an outdoor breaker panel as part of the meter and an
> indoor fuse box (which became a breaker panel). I tried to put all the
> critical circuits on the indoor breaker panel and then power that panel
> through the transfer switch (so everything on the indoor CB panel could be
> generator powered).  The electrician did not exactly follow my desires so
> neither heat pump is on the generator.  That is only a problem in summer
> because I have LP fireplaces.  Some of the Generac kits include a sub-panel
> (of sorts) that you mount next to the main (existing panel).  That critical
> circuits get moved to that subpanel and that subpanel is powered through
> the transfer switch.  But I think that setup looks crappy in the main part
> of the house.
> >>
> >> Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the transfer
> switch but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. There are
> devices you can use for specific loads, like a water heater, that will
> disconnect that load if it detects the generator is overloaded.
> >>
> >> In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year
> the rent can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver L

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

An empty tank could hold air, which could support combustion.  Also, air
(which won't condense) would screw-up the filling process.  But purging is
not a big deal (or it wasn't in the old days) as the heavier LP gas forces
air out the top.  I don't know what they do now with overfill protection
valves.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Peter Frederick via Mercedes
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 12:42 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Peter Frederick 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

Don't let the tank go completely empty either, as most suppliers will not
fill it without a leak check -- for obvious reasons.


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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

There are two situations.  Portable tanks need periodic recertification per 
DOT.  Not sue of exact size cutoff but tanks for 100 lb and below are certainly 
in that category.  The manufacture date and any subsequent recert dates are 
stamped on the tank collar.  Stationary tanks (maybe 250 gal and up) are 
certified under ASME (not DOT) when made and don't require periodic 
recertification.  But, as discussed here, states and companies may have 
requirements.  I know the tech leak-tested all the plumbing between tank and 
appliances when ours was installed.  ASME tanks have thicker metal so a visual 
inspection (perhaps with tapping) and sniffer (a tool) test are probably 
enough, but rules vary.  Buried tanks can't really be inspected but a sniffer 
should reveal leaks.  If you own the tank all this is your responsibility but 
that should also get a better price on LP.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 8:29 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

Seems like one thing I have run into with buying a tank of Craigslist or 
Fakebook is it’s hard to tell if it’s certified or whatever and if a propane 
company will fill it. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 15, 2021, at 2:46 AM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> If a big propane tank is rented and you terminate service, the LP company 
> usually comes and picks up and hauls off the whole tank, even part full.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 9:08 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> More shop propane questions. I am not sure what the PO of Okie acres did, i 
> see no evidence of a big propane tank being installed on the property. There 
> is a gas line connection at the back of the shop and I suspect maybe they 
> used those 100lb tanks and just took them down and filled them. Would this be 
> the way to go or get a big permanent tank? Will these 100lb tanks run these 
> big overhead heaters? I would probably only actually run one of them, not 
> both at the same time.  
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>  This reminds me of a question about tanks.I've got 4x 100# tanks that have 
>> been on the farm, well probably 50 years. Are they useful for refilling or 
>> should I send them for recycling? We've never refilled them for the camp 
>> because they're hard to handle and we only use 2x 20# cans in a normal week 
>> at camp. Actually before we got the fridge we wouldn't even use 2 full tanks.
>> 
>> -Curt
>> 
>>   On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:18:07 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:  
>> 
>> Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the backup 
>> system and which don't (unless you get a really big generator).  The typical 
>> home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is almost 50KW.  My house already 
>> had an outdoor breaker panel as part of the meter and an indoor fuse box 
>> (which became a breaker panel). I tried to put all the critical circuits on 
>> the indoor breaker panel and then power that panel through the transfer 
>> switch (so everything on the indoor CB panel could be generator powered).  
>> The electrician did not exactly follow my desires so neither heat pump is on 
>> the generator.  That is only a problem in summer because I have LP 
>> fireplaces.  Some of the Generac kits include a sub-panel (of sorts) that 
>> you mount next to the main (existing panel).  That critical circuits get 
>> moved to that subpanel and that subpanel is powered through the transfer 
>> switch.  But I think that setup looks crappy in the main part of the house.
>> 
>> Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the transfer switch 
>> but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. There are devices you 
>> can use for specific loads, like a water heater, that will disconnect that 
>> load if it detects the generator is overloaded.
>> 
>> In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year the 
>> rent can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver LP to the 
>> tank.  If the tank is above ground, switching to a different LP supplier 
>> (who will provide his own tank) is easy.  Generators use LP quickly, at 
>> least compared with other things.  One of the reasons for a larger tank is 
>> to maintain pressure during high usage.  The tank needs to absorb enough 
>> heat from the environment to "boil off" LP gas as yo

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I suspect there’s some truth to it.

I say that because when we moved into the former homestead there was an outdoor 
kitchen with a gas oven that was supplied off a 100 pound tank on the side of 
the house. I contacted the supplier on the tank to come out and top it off. 
Apparently, it hadn’t been serviced for a number of years, so they said there 
would have to be an inspection ($400) before they would consider filling the 
tank.

Poo to that!

I removed the tank and put it on CL where it went in a matter of minutes. I 
don’t recall how close it was to expiration or if it was expired. Then I went 
to my local Ace Hardware, who stocks LP tanks up to 100 pounds. I couldn’t 
transport a 100 pound tank, so I went with a 40 pound tank, essentially double 
what you would have for your gas grill. Cost me under $100 for the tank, about 
$32 to fill it, and it would go for anywhere from six to eight months on a fill.

Lesson learned.

-D

> On Feb 15, 2021, at 12:35 PM, OK Don via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> When we got our first delivery of propane here, we were told (doesn't mean
> it's true) that state law requires a propane company to inspect the entire
> system before dispensing propane. This is a one time thing with each
> supplier you use. They started at the tank, checked for leaks with an
> electronic sniffer and soapy water, then moved to each of the appliances.
> 
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 8:41 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com > wrote:
> 
>> A portable tank of any kind will have a date stamped in it for
>> certification. I believe they’re good for 10 or 12 years - it’s an industry
>> standard. If it’s a stationary tank you may have to get it recertified for
>> a supplier to be willing to service or fill it, not sure about that.
>> 
>> I am quite positive that you’ve got a number of propane suppliers in your
>> area. They’re more common in rural areas because of the higher
>> concentration of users. FerrellGas is one, there are plenty of other
>> national chains. Call them all and ask questions - there’s nothing that’s
>> come up here they couldn’t tell you over the phone. For example, if you
>> tell them what the BTU rating and model of your heaters are, they can give
>> you some idea of what a typical tank setup would be and the cost.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>>> On Feb 15, 2021, at 8:29 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Seems like one thing I have run into with buying a tank of Craigslist or
>> Fakebook is it’s hard to tell if it’s certified or whatever and if a
>> propane company will fill it.
>> 
> 
> -- 
> OK Don
> 
> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
> 
> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
> Von Braun
> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com 
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard (only rain here)

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

I have a 100gal tank only for my cooktop, so it will last a coupla years 
or more.  I ran it dry 2-3 yr ago and the delivery guy had to do some 
elaborate pressure test for a day or two and charged me like $50 for the 
privilege.  He said it was state code or something to make sure the 
system wasn't leaking gas. Makes sense I guess but was annoying.


Reminds me I need to get a refill soon, I think that was the last I had 
it filled.


It has been raining here for last 10days or so, mostly in the 50s so not 
bad, but more this week then clear off for the weekend it looks like.  
Thankful it is not blizzard and cold and snow and ice but it is depressing.


--FT

On 2/15/21 12:35 PM, OK Don via Mercedes wrote:

When we got our first delivery of propane here, we were told (doesn't mean
it's true) that state law requires a propane company to inspect the entire
system before dispensing propane. This is a one time thing with each
supplier you use. They started at the tank, checked for leaks with an
electronic sniffer and soapy water, then moved to each of the appliances.

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 8:41 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


A portable tank of any kind will have a date stamped in it for
certification. I believe they’re good for 10 or 12 years - it’s an industry
standard. If it’s a stationary tank you may have to get it recertified for
a supplier to be willing to service or fill it, not sure about that.

I am quite positive that you’ve got a number of propane suppliers in your
area. They’re more common in rural areas because of the higher
concentration of users. FerrellGas is one, there are plenty of other
national chains. Call them all and ask questions - there’s nothing that’s
come up here they couldn’t tell you over the phone. For example, if you
tell them what the BTU rating and model of your heaters are, they can give
you some idea of what a typical tank setup would be and the cost.

-D


On Feb 15, 2021, at 8:29 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <

mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

Seems like one thing I have run into with buying a tank of Craigslist or

Fakebook is it’s hard to tell if it’s certified or whatever and if a
propane company will fill it.


--
--FT

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

Don't let the tank go completely empty either, as most suppliers will not fill 
it without a leak check -- for obvious reasons.


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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[OK Don via Mercedes]

When we got our first delivery of propane here, we were told (doesn't mean
it's true) that state law requires a propane company to inspect the entire
system before dispensing propane. This is a one time thing with each
supplier you use. They started at the tank, checked for leaks with an
electronic sniffer and soapy water, then moved to each of the appliances.

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 8:41 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> A portable tank of any kind will have a date stamped in it for
> certification. I believe they’re good for 10 or 12 years - it’s an industry
> standard. If it’s a stationary tank you may have to get it recertified for
> a supplier to be willing to service or fill it, not sure about that.
>
> I am quite positive that you’ve got a number of propane suppliers in your
> area. They’re more common in rural areas because of the higher
> concentration of users. FerrellGas is one, there are plenty of other
> national chains. Call them all and ask questions - there’s nothing that’s
> come up here they couldn’t tell you over the phone. For example, if you
> tell them what the BTU rating and model of your heaters are, they can give
> you some idea of what a typical tank setup would be and the cost.
>
> -D
>
> > On Feb 15, 2021, at 8:29 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > Seems like one thing I have run into with buying a tank of Craigslist or
> Fakebook is it’s hard to tell if it’s certified or whatever and if a
> propane company will fill it.
>

-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

“Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
Von Braun
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

A portable tank of any kind will have a date stamped in it for certification. I 
believe they’re good for 10 or 12 years - it’s an industry standard. If it’s a 
stationary tank you may have to get it recertified for a supplier to be willing 
to service or fill it, not sure about that.

I am quite positive that you’ve got a number of propane suppliers in your area. 
They’re more common in rural areas because of the higher concentration of 
users. FerrellGas is one, there are plenty of other national chains. Call them 
all and ask questions - there’s nothing that’s come up here they couldn’t tell 
you over the phone. For example, if you tell them what the BTU rating and model 
of your heaters are, they can give you some idea of what a typical tank setup 
would be and the cost.

-D

> On Feb 15, 2021, at 8:29 AM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Seems like one thing I have run into with buying a tank of Craigslist or 
> Fakebook is it’s hard to tell if it’s certified or whatever and if a propane 
> company will fill it. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 15, 2021, at 2:46 AM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> If a big propane tank is rented and you terminate service, the LP company 
>> usually comes and picks up and hauls off the whole tank, even part full.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 9:08 PM
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>> Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
>> 
>> More shop propane questions. I am not sure what the PO of Okie acres did, i 
>> see no evidence of a big propane tank being installed on the property. There 
>> is a gas line connection at the back of the shop and I suspect maybe they 
>> used those 100lb tanks and just took them down and filled them. Would this 
>> be the way to go or get a big permanent tank? Will these 100lb tanks run 
>> these big overhead heaters? I would probably only actually run one of them, 
>> not both at the same time.  
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>>  This reminds me of a question about tanks.I've got 4x 100# tanks that 
>>> have been on the farm, well probably 50 years. Are they useful for 
>>> refilling or should I send them for recycling? We've never refilled them 
>>> for the camp because they're hard to handle and we only use 2x 20# cans in 
>>> a normal week at camp. Actually before we got the fridge we wouldn't even 
>>> use 2 full tanks.
>>> 
>>> -Curt
>>> 
>>> On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:18:07 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:  
>>> 
>>> Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the backup 
>>> system and which don't (unless you get a really big generator).  The 
>>> typical home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is almost 50KW.  My 
>>> house already had an outdoor breaker panel as part of the meter and an 
>>> indoor fuse box (which became a breaker panel). I tried to put all the 
>>> critical circuits on the indoor breaker panel and then power that panel 
>>> through the transfer switch (so everything on the indoor CB panel could be 
>>> generator powered).  The electrician did not exactly follow my desires so 
>>> neither heat pump is on the generator.  That is only a problem in summer 
>>> because I have LP fireplaces.  Some of the Generac kits include a sub-panel 
>>> (of sorts) that you mount next to the main (existing panel).  That critical 
>>> circuits get moved to that subpanel and that subpanel is powered through 
>>> the transfer switch.  But I think that setup looks crappy in the main part 
>>> of the house.
>>> 
>>> Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the transfer 
>>> switch but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. There are 
>>> devices you can use for specific loads, like a water heater, that will 
>>> disconnect that load if it detects the generator is overloaded.
>>> 
>>> In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year the 
>>> rent can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver LP to the 
>>> tank.  If the tank is above ground, switching to a different LP supplier 
>>> (who will provide his own tank) is easy.  Generators use LP quickly, at 
>>> least compared with other things.  One of the reasons for a larger tank is 
>>> to maintain pressure during high usage.  The tank needs

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Boy, is this thread busy! Let me try and bring some things together…

Your heaters and nearly all generator applications will run off of propane 
vapor. Typically 7”-11” of water column for generators, which is equal to about 
4-6 PSI. Heaters will work off of a lower pressure in most cases. Some motor 
fuel applications do use propane liquid, or what’s commonly known as “liquid 
withdrawal”, but they require special regulators that have coolant running 
through them to vaporize the liquid propane. There are advantages and 
disadvantages to both, but liquid withdrawal is more complex and expensive, so 
it’s not as common.

A typical setup has a primary regulator that drops tank pressure to a usable 
value, then a demand regulator for the appliance that’s being supplied.

Tanks are filled to 80% maximum. For example, I have a 500 gallon underground 
tank in my front yard. A full fill is 400 gallons, or 80% of 500. This is due 
to a need for a “wetting surface” in the tank where the liquid propane can 
vaporize and turn to gas. If you filled the tank completely full, there would 
be no place for vaporization to occur in the tank, meaning you wouldn’t get any 
vapor out of it.

“Portable” tanks are those with POL connectors up to 100 pounds (the amount of 
propane they can store.) As long as you can transport these upright, propane 
dealers will fill them. The tanks can be set up for liquid or vapor withdrawal, 
but in most cases this has to be done when the tank is built, as liquid 
withdrawal requires a dip tube.

Stationary tanks are essentially certified for life, the same with underground 
tanks. This is because they’re set up with anodes to prevent rust or corrosion 
that would compromise the tank, along with special coatings to do the same. You 
can lease a tank or purchase it outright. The advantage to purchasing a tank 
outright is that you can choose your fuel supplier, that is, you can shop for 
the best deal. Understand that you’ll still be charged a delivery fee, which 
varies between suppliers. If you lease a tank, you’re locked into a single 
supplier and will also have a monthly lease payment. The advantage of a leased 
tank is that the supplier will typically be responsible for everything in the 
system, so if a regulator fails, for example, they’ll replace or repair it.

If you use multiple tanks, say two 100# tanks, which is a common residential 
setup for smaller loads, there will be a automatic switchover arrangement where 
both tanks are connected to the regulator, but if one tank’s pressure drops 
below a certain point, the supply is automatically switched to the other (full) 
tank. This also allows for swapping out tanks without having to interrupt the 
supply. The process is a mechanical one using a pressure valve that “toggles” 
between the tanks and requires no power or interaction on the user’s part.

Hopefully, this will address a lot of the questions that were posed in this 
thread. If you have any questions, let me know.

-D
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

Seems like one thing I have run into with buying a tank of Craigslist or 
Fakebook is it’s hard to tell if it’s certified or whatever and if a propane 
company will fill it. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 15, 2021, at 2:46 AM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> If a big propane tank is rented and you terminate service, the LP company 
> usually comes and picks up and hauls off the whole tank, even part full.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 9:08 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> More shop propane questions. I am not sure what the PO of Okie acres did, i 
> see no evidence of a big propane tank being installed on the property. There 
> is a gas line connection at the back of the shop and I suspect maybe they 
> used those 100lb tanks and just took them down and filled them. Would this be 
> the way to go or get a big permanent tank? Will these 100lb tanks run these 
> big overhead heaters? I would probably only actually run one of them, not 
> both at the same time.  
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>  This reminds me of a question about tanks.I've got 4x 100# tanks that have 
>> been on the farm, well probably 50 years. Are they useful for refilling or 
>> should I send them for recycling? We've never refilled them for the camp 
>> because they're hard to handle and we only use 2x 20# cans in a normal week 
>> at camp. Actually before we got the fridge we wouldn't even use 2 full tanks.
>> 
>> -Curt
>> 
>>   On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:18:07 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:  
>> 
>> Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the backup 
>> system and which don't (unless you get a really big generator).  The typical 
>> home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is almost 50KW.  My house already 
>> had an outdoor breaker panel as part of the meter and an indoor fuse box 
>> (which became a breaker panel). I tried to put all the critical circuits on 
>> the indoor breaker panel and then power that panel through the transfer 
>> switch (so everything on the indoor CB panel could be generator powered).  
>> The electrician did not exactly follow my desires so neither heat pump is on 
>> the generator.  That is only a problem in summer because I have LP 
>> fireplaces.  Some of the Generac kits include a sub-panel (of sorts) that 
>> you mount next to the main (existing panel).  That critical circuits get 
>> moved to that subpanel and that subpanel is powered through the transfer 
>> switch.  But I think that setup looks crappy in the main part of the house.
>> 
>> Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the transfer switch 
>> but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. There are devices you 
>> can use for specific loads, like a water heater, that will disconnect that 
>> load if it detects the generator is overloaded.
>> 
>> In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year the 
>> rent can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver LP to the 
>> tank.  If the tank is above ground, switching to a different LP supplier 
>> (who will provide his own tank) is easy.  Generators use LP quickly, at 
>> least compared with other things.  One of the reasons for a larger tank is 
>> to maintain pressure during high usage.  The tank needs to absorb enough 
>> heat from the environment to "boil off" LP gas as you use it. 
>> 
>> Preferably, locate the generator so the engine exhaust will blow away from 
>> the house. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:37 PM
>> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>> Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
>> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
>> 
>> I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off 
>> propane, and also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. 
>> Maybe even replace the stove/oven with propane instead of electric
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice 
>>> storm.  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the 
>>> generator running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice 
>>> to 

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> once it gets down to a certain point there wont be enough pressure to run 
> whatever heater you are trying to run.

Vapor feed is tricky.  It can be a real issue when deep-frying turkeys outside.
I usually bring the BBQ tank in overnight, that seems to cure the problem.  As
the propane in the tank evaporates the liquid body cools, and if it can't pick 
up
enough replacement heat from the ambient it eventually stops evaporating...

Liquid feed (forklift tanks) doesn't have that problem.  But few things (except 
motors)
take a liquid feed.  Big Bertha has a coolant-loop-heated evaporator to make 
the vapor
for its carburetor.

You can't use a forklift tank in place of a BBQ tank.  Not without dealing with 
the
liquid to gas phase change somehow.  Used to be you could invert a BBQ tank to
run a generator, but not since the OPD system was mandated.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> I need to shut [the pilot] off when I'm not out there, you can probably boil 
> water on it.

On my old camper I usually only ran the pilot on the water heater.  After some 
hours
(and certainly overnight) the water was plenty hot enough just on that.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

You will always have one (or maybe two) pressure regulators between tank and 
appliance.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Curt Raymond via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 9:14 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Curt Raymond 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

 Out here a lot of people have the 100# tanks for cooking/heating. You can get 
them refilled with a truck.It'd be interesting to know what pressure those 
heaters want though. A stove wants low pressure, some heaters want high 
pressure. Makes a big difference in how you work your install.
-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 9:08:43 PM EST, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 More shop propane questions. I am not sure what the PO of Okie acres did, i 
see no evidence of a big propane tank being installed on the property. There is 
a gas line connection at the back of the shop and I suspect maybe they used 
those 100lb tanks and just took them down and filled them. Would this be the 
way to go or get a big permanent tank? Will these 100lb tanks run these big 
overhead heaters? I would probably only actually run one of them, not both at 
the same time.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
>  This reminds me of a question about tanks.I've got 4x 100# tanks that have 
> been on the farm, well probably 50 years. Are they useful for refilling or 
> should I send them for recycling? We've never refilled them for the camp 
> because they're hard to handle and we only use 2x 20# cans in a normal week 
> at camp. Actually before we got the fridge we wouldn't even use 2 full tanks.
> 
> -Curt
> 
>On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:18:07 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via 
>Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the backup 
> system and which don't (unless you get a really big generator).  The typical 
> home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is almost 50KW.  My house already 
> had an outdoor breaker panel as part of the meter and an indoor fuse box 
> (which became a breaker panel). I tried to put all the critical circuits on 
> the indoor breaker panel and then power that panel through the transfer 
> switch (so everything on the indoor CB panel could be generator powered).  
> The electrician did not exactly follow my desires so neither heat pump is on 
> the generator.  That is only a problem in summer because I have LP 
> fireplaces.  Some of the Generac kits include a sub-panel (of sorts) that you 
> mount next to the main (existing panel).  That critical circuits get moved to 
> that subpanel and that subpanel is powered through the transfer switch.  But 
> I think that setup looks crappy in the main part of the house.
> 
> Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the transfer switch 
> but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. There are devices you 
> can use for specific loads, like a water heater, that will disconnect that 
> load if it detects the generator is overloaded.
> 
> In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year the rent 
> can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver LP to the tank.  
> If the tank is above ground, switching to a different LP supplier (who will 
> provide his own tank) is easy.  Generators use LP quickly, at least compared 
> with other things.  One of the reasons for a larger tank is to maintain 
> pressure during high usage.  The tank needs to absorb enough heat from the 
> environment to "boil off" LP gas as you use it. 
> 
> Preferably, locate the generator so the engine exhaust will blow away from 
> the house. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:37 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off 
> propane, and also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. 
> Maybe even replace the stove/oven with propane instead of electric
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an 
>> ice storm.  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the 
>> generator running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice 
>> to have then but there are costs.
>> 
>> I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was 
>> part of a bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty 
>> clean but I still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has 
>> died several times without m

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

If a big propane tank is rented and you terminate service, the LP company 
usually comes and picks up and hauls off the whole tank, even part full.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 9:08 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

More shop propane questions. I am not sure what the PO of Okie acres did, i see 
no evidence of a big propane tank being installed on the property. There is a 
gas line connection at the back of the shop and I suspect maybe they used those 
100lb tanks and just took them down and filled them. Would this be the way to 
go or get a big permanent tank? Will these 100lb tanks run these big overhead 
heaters? I would probably only actually run one of them, not both at the same 
time.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
>  This reminds me of a question about tanks.I've got 4x 100# tanks that have 
> been on the farm, well probably 50 years. Are they useful for refilling or 
> should I send them for recycling? We've never refilled them for the camp 
> because they're hard to handle and we only use 2x 20# cans in a normal week 
> at camp. Actually before we got the fridge we wouldn't even use 2 full tanks.
> 
> -Curt
> 
>On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:18:07 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:  
> 
> Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the backup 
> system and which don't (unless you get a really big generator).  The typical 
> home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is almost 50KW.  My house already 
> had an outdoor breaker panel as part of the meter and an indoor fuse box 
> (which became a breaker panel). I tried to put all the critical circuits on 
> the indoor breaker panel and then power that panel through the transfer 
> switch (so everything on the indoor CB panel could be generator powered).  
> The electrician did not exactly follow my desires so neither heat pump is on 
> the generator.  That is only a problem in summer because I have LP 
> fireplaces.  Some of the Generac kits include a sub-panel (of sorts) that you 
> mount next to the main (existing panel).  That critical circuits get moved to 
> that subpanel and that subpanel is powered through the transfer switch.  But 
> I think that setup looks crappy in the main part of the house.
> 
> Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the transfer switch 
> but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. There are devices you 
> can use for specific loads, like a water heater, that will disconnect that 
> load if it detects the generator is overloaded.
> 
> In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year the rent 
> can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver LP to the tank.  
> If the tank is above ground, switching to a different LP supplier (who will 
> provide his own tank) is easy.  Generators use LP quickly, at least compared 
> with other things.  One of the reasons for a larger tank is to maintain 
> pressure during high usage.  The tank needs to absorb enough heat from the 
> environment to "boil off" LP gas as you use it. 
> 
> Preferably, locate the generator so the engine exhaust will blow away from 
> the house. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:37 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off 
> propane, and also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. 
> Maybe even replace the stove/oven with propane instead of electric
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice 
>> storm.  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the 
>> generator running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice 
>> to have then but there are costs.  
>> 
>> I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part of 
>> a bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean but 
>> I still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died 
>> several times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the case 
>> to rust.  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.  
>> 
>> At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes many 
>> UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and deplete th

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

For what it's worth, around here they expect you to bring in tanks od 100 lb or 
less for refill but deliver for anything bigger.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 9:08 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

More shop propane questions. I am not sure what the PO of Okie acres did, i see 
no evidence of a big propane tank being installed on the property. There is a 
gas line connection at the back of the shop and I suspect maybe they used those 
100lb tanks and just took them down and filled them. Would this be the way to 
go or get a big permanent tank? Will these 100lb tanks run these big overhead 
heaters? I would probably only actually run one of them, not both at the same 
time.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
>  This reminds me of a question about tanks.I've got 4x 100# tanks that have 
> been on the farm, well probably 50 years. Are they useful for refilling or 
> should I send them for recycling? We've never refilled them for the camp 
> because they're hard to handle and we only use 2x 20# cans in a normal week 
> at camp. Actually before we got the fridge we wouldn't even use 2 full tanks.
> 
> -Curt
> 
>On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:18:07 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:  
> 
> Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the backup 
> system and which don't (unless you get a really big generator).  The typical 
> home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is almost 50KW.  My house already 
> had an outdoor breaker panel as part of the meter and an indoor fuse box 
> (which became a breaker panel). I tried to put all the critical circuits on 
> the indoor breaker panel and then power that panel through the transfer 
> switch (so everything on the indoor CB panel could be generator powered).  
> The electrician did not exactly follow my desires so neither heat pump is on 
> the generator.  That is only a problem in summer because I have LP 
> fireplaces.  Some of the Generac kits include a sub-panel (of sorts) that you 
> mount next to the main (existing panel).  That critical circuits get moved to 
> that subpanel and that subpanel is powered through the transfer switch.  But 
> I think that setup looks crappy in the main part of the house.
> 
> Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the transfer switch 
> but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. There are devices you 
> can use for specific loads, like a water heater, that will disconnect that 
> load if it detects the generator is overloaded.
> 
> In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year the rent 
> can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver LP to the tank.  
> If the tank is above ground, switching to a different LP supplier (who will 
> provide his own tank) is easy.  Generators use LP quickly, at least compared 
> with other things.  One of the reasons for a larger tank is to maintain 
> pressure during high usage.  The tank needs to absorb enough heat from the 
> environment to "boil off" LP gas as you use it. 
> 
> Preferably, locate the generator so the engine exhaust will blow away from 
> the house. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:37 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off 
> propane, and also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. 
> Maybe even replace the stove/oven with propane instead of electric
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice 
>> storm.  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the 
>> generator running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice 
>> to have then but there are costs.  
>> 
>> I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part of 
>> a bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean but 
>> I still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died 
>> several times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the case 
>> to rust.  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.  
>> 
>> At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes many 
>> UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and deplete the 
>> battery; APC S

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Check code with county building inspector, they will probably tell you over the 
phone.  My installation is a combination of flexible copper tubing (w/ brass 
fittings) and iron pipe, just at the generator.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Curt Raymond via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 8:17 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Curt Raymond 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

 I'm debating what to put in the farmhouse. I'd like to go propane but not sure 
that the copper pipes I'm used to still meet code. My parents house has a 
copper line but that was put in back in 1980...
What ever I do will almost certainly be a used stove (probably gas). I'm not 
refurbishing an 1890s farmhouse and making it look like a modern condo.

-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 6:37:42 PM EST, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off propane, and 
also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. Maybe even replace the 
stove/oven with propane instead of electric 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice 
> storm.  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the 
> generator running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice 
> to have then but there are costs.
> 
> I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was 
> part of a bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty 
> clean but I still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has 
> died several times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the 
> case to rust.  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.
> 
> At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which 
> causes many UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and 
> deplete the battery; APC Smart UPS are more tolerant.
> 
> I have an underground 500 gal LP tank (which only holds 400 gal) that 
> should be good for a couple of days.  An above-ground thank would be cheaper 
> and would let ne switch LP suppliers; but SWMBO said no to above-ground.
> 
> Overall, I have no complaints but frankly, the few recent power outages 
> didn't justify the expense.  However, long power outages were very common 
> previously and SWMBO would not be able to manage a manual system (I traveled 
> for work in those days).
> 
> For short outages, an 8-10 KW (electric start) gasoline generator should do 
> the job much cheaper.  The plug-in output cord can be wired to a power panel 
> with a mechanical interlock fairly inexpensively (if code allows).  The main 
> drawback of this setup, IMO, is storing gasoline and keeping it fresh. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 4:27 PM
> To: Okie Benz 
> Cc: Dan Penoff 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> It does make life far easier and less likely to be interrupted. Big up front 
> cost, though, if you do it right.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Being that we are total electric here, I should get a backup generator one 
>> of these day. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my 
>>> annual fill for the standby generator…
>>> 
>>> -D shoveling sun and a little bit of rain today in the near 80s
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, 
>>>> snow blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 
>>>> 30 minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up 
>>>> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It 
>>>> would Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time 
>>>> you pay for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep 
>>>> firewood around for use in the case of emergency.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>> 
>>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>> 
>>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>>> http://ma

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

No real need to heat the tank unless it is too small.  I don't have numbers
but a 20 lb tank from a grill is  probably too small for a house-size
generator on a cold day.  At church we have 4 LP gas furnaces feeding from
an above-ground tank is probably 1000 gal. (but only filled to 80%); never a
problem.  A medium size generator can use 2-4 gal/hr (about 12-24 lb/hr) at
heavy load so I think a 250 gal tank would be about as small as you'd want
in a cold climate.  

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Allan Streib via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 8:48 PM
To: Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
Cc: Allan Streib 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

Scott Ritchey via Mercedes  writes:

> The tank needs to absorb enough heat from the environment to "boil 
> off" LP gas as you use it.

Is there some way to use the waste heat from the generator engine to heat
the LP tank? You probably wouldn't need to do it in the summer though.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[OK Don via Mercedes]

All the propane powered genny sets that I've read the specs on say they
require a liquid propane line, not the gas. That solves the evaporation
cooling problem, and delivers more BTU to the genny engine, though they are
still very thirsty, as propane has a fraction (I should know but don't
remember) of the carbon to burn that gasoline does, which is less than
Diesel/fuel oil.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:09 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>  Its the torpedo heater though, those really slurp down the propane. I
> suspect a generator of significant size would have the same problem.
> A 100# would work better but of course would be decidedly not handy.
> A forklift tank would work too but I don't know where you'd get one
> filled. All the hardware stores and whatnot are geared for 20# tanks.
> Which reminds me. At camp we usually exchange our tanks, the price is
> decent and its convenient.I went and had 2 filled last year. I was shocked
> by how much heavier they felt. It'll be interesting to see how much longer
> 20# lasts. I know they claim the exchange fills are 15# but I'm starting to
> have doubts.
> -Curt
>
> On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 9:01:57 PM EST, Allan Streib <
> astr...@indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>  Curt Raymond  writes:
>
> > For cooking/heating use I don't think tank size is a problem until you
> > get down to the BBQ (20#) tank size. I remember reading that at -20F a
> > BBQ tank wouldn't produce enough vapor pressure to run a stove but I
> > suppose that depends on what stove.
>
> I have a propane heater I sometimes use in the garage (torpedo
> heater). With a 20# BBQ tank, the tank will start to frost up after
> about 30 min and the burner flame/heat output diminishes. This is at far
> above -20F, maybe more like +30F or so.
>
> Allan
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>

-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

“Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
Von Braun
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Propane tanks all use pressure regulators, regardless of the tank size, and
delivery pressure is regulated to, I believe something like 11 inches of
water column , or some arcane unit of measure.
Anyway try a look at this for more answers than I have.

https://gashosesandregulators.com/propaneregulatorfacts.php

On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 8:53 PM Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Yep, connection point is about 4ft off the ground.
>
> On 2/14/2021 9:44 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:
> > You are probably correct.  I would guess 100# tanks would work if you
> have a hookup about four foot off the ground -- that's the usual height I
> think.  Usually in pairs if I remember correctly, they used to be pretty
> common around here for gas stoves when the house had oil or wood heat.
> >
> > Those overheat infared heaters are really nice since the radiant heat
> actually warms up the floor and bench, unlike thinks such as torpedo
> heaters.
> >
> > I have an ancient converted oil burner furnace that gobbles propane, but
> haven't managed to get a newer furnace installed.  Picked up one from a
> friend only to find it's a downdraft that can't be converted to updraft OR
> propane (no parts, it's too old) so I'm still on the hunt for a modern
> furnace.  Won't make it easier to heat a barely insulated building, but at
> least less of the heat will go up the stack.  I'd guess I'm currently
> around 40% efficiency, which is terrible.  Probably wasting a ton of
> propane with the pilot too, I need to shut it off when I'm not out there,
> you can probably boil water on it.
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
> ___
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>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

Yep, connection point is about 4ft off the ground.

On 2/14/2021 9:44 PM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes wrote:

You are probably correct.  I would guess 100# tanks would work if you have a 
hookup about four foot off the ground -- that's the usual height I think.  
Usually in pairs if I remember correctly, they used to be pretty common around 
here for gas stoves when the house had oil or wood heat.

Those overheat infared heaters are really nice since the radiant heat actually 
warms up the floor and bench, unlike thinks such as torpedo heaters.

I have an ancient converted oil burner furnace that gobbles propane, but 
haven't managed to get a newer furnace installed.  Picked up one from a friend 
only to find it's a downdraft that can't be converted to updraft OR propane (no 
parts, it's too old) so I'm still on the hunt for a modern furnace.  Won't make 
it easier to heat a barely insulated building, but at least less of the heat 
will go up the stack.  I'd guess I'm currently around 40% efficiency, which is 
terrible.  Probably wasting a ton of propane with the pilot too, I need to shut 
it off when I'm not out there, you can probably boil water on it.
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

You are probably correct.  I would guess 100# tanks would work if you have a 
hookup about four foot off the ground -- that's the usual height I think.  
Usually in pairs if I remember correctly, they used to be pretty common around 
here for gas stoves when the house had oil or wood heat.

Those overheat infared heaters are really nice since the radiant heat actually 
warms up the floor and bench, unlike thinks such as torpedo heaters.

I have an ancient converted oil burner furnace that gobbles propane, but 
haven't managed to get a newer furnace installed.  Picked up one from a friend 
only to find it's a downdraft that can't be converted to updraft OR propane (no 
parts, it's too old) so I'm still on the hunt for a modern furnace.  Won't make 
it easier to heat a barely insulated building, but at least less of the heat 
will go up the stack.  I'd guess I'm currently around 40% efficiency, which is 
terrible.  Probably wasting a ton of propane with the pilot too, I need to shut 
it off when I'm not out there, you can probably boil water on it.
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

I was digging thru pics on my cell phone to see if I still had a pic of 
the label for those heaters out there.  I can't remember what BTU they 
are, I want to say they are 150k btu, but not sure. That would dictate 
what size tank it needs I assume.  I would only be running it for a few 
hours on weekends on occasion if that.  It is my understanding it I 
remember when researching this before is you have to have a certain flow 
volume depending on the size of the heater, even if there is still 
propane in the tank once it gets down to a certain point there wont be 
enough pressure to run whatever heater you are trying to run.  Or, I may 
just be on crack and remembering all this wrong.


On 2/14/2021 8:13 PM, Curt Raymond wrote:
Out here a lot of people have the 100# tanks for cooking/heating. You 
can get them refilled with a truck.
It'd be interesting to know what pressure those heaters want though. A 
stove wants low pressure, some heaters want high pressure. Makes a big 
difference in how you work your install.


-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 9:08:43 PM EST, Kaleb Striplin via 
Mercedes  wrote:



More shop propane questions. I am not sure what the PO of Okie acres 
did, i see no evidence of a big propane tank being installed on the 
property. There is a gas line connection at the back of the shop and I 
suspect maybe they used those 100lb tanks and just took them down and 
filled them. Would this be the way to go or get a big permanent tank? 
Will these 100lb tanks run these big overhead heaters? I would 
probably only actually run one of them, not both at the same time.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:

>
>  This reminds me of a question about tanks.I've got 4x 100# tanks 
that have been on the farm, well probably 50 years. Are they useful 
for refilling or should I send them for recycling? We've never 
refilled them for the camp because they're hard to handle and we only 
use 2x 20# cans in a normal week at camp. Actually before we got the 
fridge we wouldn't even use 2 full tanks.

>
> -Curt
>
>    On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:18:07 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via 
Mercedes mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:

>
> Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the 
backup system and which don't (unless you get a really big 
generator).  The typical home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is 
almost 50KW.  My house already had an outdoor breaker panel as part of 
the meter and an indoor fuse box (which became a breaker panel). I 
tried to put all the critical circuits on the indoor breaker panel and 
then power that panel through the transfer switch (so everything on 
the indoor CB panel could be generator powered).  The electrician did 
not exactly follow my desires so neither heat pump is on the 
generator.  That is only a problem in summer because I have LP 
fireplaces. Some of the Generac kits include a sub-panel (of sorts) 
that you mount next to the main (existing panel).  That critical 
circuits get moved to that subpanel and that subpanel is powered 
through the transfer switch.  But I think that setup looks crappy in 
the main part of the house.

>
> Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the 
transfer switch but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. 
There are devices you can use for specific loads, like a water heater, 
that will disconnect that load if it detects the generator is overloaded.

>
> In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year 
the rent can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver 
LP to the tank.  If the tank is above ground, switching to a different 
LP supplier (who will provide his own tank) is easy. Generators use LP 
quickly, at least compared with other things.  One of the reasons for 
a larger tank is to maintain pressure during high usage.  The tank 
needs to absorb enough heat from the environment to "boil off" LP gas 
as you use it.

>
> Preferably, locate the generator so the engine exhaust will blow 
away from the house.

>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:37 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>

> Cc: Kaleb Striplin mailto:ka...@striplin.net>>
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
>
> I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off 
propane, and also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. 
Maybe even replace the stove/oven with propane instead of electric

>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:

>>
>> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an 
ice storm.  I was unaware of that un

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Interesting, I should ask about that the next time I get one filled. I'd like 
to get a couple for camp, it'd be nice to be able to go 2 weeks on a fill. I'd 
still keep 20# tanks around since they can be exchanged its handy if somebody 
says "What can I pay for?" you just send them to the grocery store...

-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 9:19:30 PM EST, Jim Cathey 
 wrote:  
 
 > A forklift tank would work too but I don't know where you'd get one filled.

I have three for Big Bertha.  I get them filled the same places I get BBQ tanks 
filled.

-- Jim

  
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> A forklift tank would work too but I don't know where you'd get one filled.

I have three for Big Bertha.  I get them filled the same places I get BBQ tanks 
filled.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Out here a lot of people have the 100# tanks for cooking/heating. You can get 
them refilled with a truck.It'd be interesting to know what pressure those 
heaters want though. A stove wants low pressure, some heaters want high 
pressure. Makes a big difference in how you work your install.
-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 9:08:43 PM EST, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 More shop propane questions. I am not sure what the PO of Okie acres did, i 
see no evidence of a big propane tank being installed on the property. There is 
a gas line connection at the back of the shop and I suspect maybe they used 
those 100lb tanks and just took them down and filled them. Would this be the 
way to go or get a big permanent tank? Will these 100lb tanks run these big 
overhead heaters? I would probably only actually run one of them, not both at 
the same time.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
>  This reminds me of a question about tanks.I've got 4x 100# tanks that have 
> been on the farm, well probably 50 years. Are they useful for refilling or 
> should I send them for recycling? We've never refilled them for the camp 
> because they're hard to handle and we only use 2x 20# cans in a normal week 
> at camp. Actually before we got the fridge we wouldn't even use 2 full tanks.
> 
> -Curt
> 
>    On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:18:07 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
> wrote:  
> 
> Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the backup 
> system and which don't (unless you get a really big generator).  The typical 
> home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is almost 50KW.  My house already 
> had an outdoor breaker panel as part of the meter and an indoor fuse box 
> (which became a breaker panel). I tried to put all the critical circuits on 
> the indoor breaker panel and then power that panel through the transfer 
> switch (so everything on the indoor CB panel could be generator powered).  
> The electrician did not exactly follow my desires so neither heat pump is on 
> the generator.  That is only a problem in summer because I have LP 
> fireplaces.  Some of the Generac kits include a sub-panel (of sorts) that you 
> mount next to the main (existing panel).  That critical circuits get moved to 
> that subpanel and that subpanel is powered through the transfer switch.  But 
> I think that setup looks crappy in the main part of the house.
> 
> Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the transfer switch 
> but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. There are devices you 
> can use for specific loads, like a water heater, that will disconnect that 
> load if it detects the generator is overloaded.
> 
> In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year the rent 
> can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver LP to the tank.  
> If the tank is above ground, switching to a different LP supplier (who will 
> provide his own tank) is easy.  Generators use LP quickly, at least compared 
> with other things.  One of the reasons for a larger tank is to maintain 
> pressure during high usage.  The tank needs to absorb enough heat from the 
> environment to "boil off" LP gas as you use it. 
> 
> Preferably, locate the generator so the engine exhaust will blow away from 
> the house. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:37 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off propane, and 
> also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. Maybe even replace the 
> stove/oven with propane instead of electric 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice 
>> storm.  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the 
>> generator running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice 
>> to have then but there are costs.  
>> 
>> I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part of 
>> a bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean but 
>> I still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died 
>> several times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the case 
>> to rust.  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.  
>> 
>> At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes many 
>> UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-b

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Its the torpedo heater though, those really slurp down the propane. I suspect 
a generator of significant size would have the same problem.
A 100# would work better but of course would be decidedly not handy.
A forklift tank would work too but I don't know where you'd get one filled. All 
the hardware stores and whatnot are geared for 20# tanks.
Which reminds me. At camp we usually exchange our tanks, the price is decent 
and its convenient.I went and had 2 filled last year. I was shocked by how much 
heavier they felt. It'll be interesting to see how much longer 20# lasts. I 
know they claim the exchange fills are 15# but I'm starting to have doubts.
-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 9:01:57 PM EST, Allan Streib 
 wrote:  
 
 Curt Raymond  writes:

> For cooking/heating use I don't think tank size is a problem until you
> get down to the BBQ (20#) tank size. I remember reading that at -20F a
> BBQ tank wouldn't produce enough vapor pressure to run a stove but I
> suppose that depends on what stove.

I have a propane heater I sometimes use in the garage (torpedo
heater). With a 20# BBQ tank, the tank will start to frost up after
about 30 min and the burner flame/heat output diminishes. This is at far
above -20F, maybe more like +30F or so.

Allan
  
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

More shop propane questions. I am not sure what the PO of Okie acres did, i see 
no evidence of a big propane tank being installed on the property. There is a 
gas line connection at the back of the shop and I suspect maybe they used those 
100lb tanks and just took them down and filled them. Would this be the way to 
go or get a big permanent tank? Will these 100lb tanks run these big overhead 
heaters? I would probably only actually run one of them, not both at the same 
time.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
>  This reminds me of a question about tanks.I've got 4x 100# tanks that have 
> been on the farm, well probably 50 years. Are they useful for refilling or 
> should I send them for recycling? We've never refilled them for the camp 
> because they're hard to handle and we only use 2x 20# cans in a normal week 
> at camp. Actually before we got the fridge we wouldn't even use 2 full tanks.
> 
> -Curt
> 
>On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:18:07 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:  
> 
> Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the backup 
> system and which don't (unless you get a really big generator).  The typical 
> home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is almost 50KW.  My house already 
> had an outdoor breaker panel as part of the meter and an indoor fuse box 
> (which became a breaker panel). I tried to put all the critical circuits on 
> the indoor breaker panel and then power that panel through the transfer 
> switch (so everything on the indoor CB panel could be generator powered).  
> The electrician did not exactly follow my desires so neither heat pump is on 
> the generator.  That is only a problem in summer because I have LP 
> fireplaces.  Some of the Generac kits include a sub-panel (of sorts) that you 
> mount next to the main (existing panel).  That critical circuits get moved to 
> that subpanel and that subpanel is powered through the transfer switch.  But 
> I think that setup looks crappy in the main part of the house.
> 
> Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the transfer switch 
> but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. There are devices you 
> can use for specific loads, like a water heater, that will disconnect that 
> load if it detects the generator is overloaded.
> 
> In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year the rent 
> can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver LP to the tank.  
> If the tank is above ground, switching to a different LP supplier (who will 
> provide his own tank) is easy.  Generators use LP quickly, at least compared 
> with other things.  One of the reasons for a larger tank is to maintain 
> pressure during high usage.  The tank needs to absorb enough heat from the 
> environment to "boil off" LP gas as you use it. 
> 
> Preferably, locate the generator so the engine exhaust will blow away from 
> the house. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:37 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off propane, and 
> also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. Maybe even replace the 
> stove/oven with propane instead of electric 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice 
>> storm.  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the 
>> generator running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice 
>> to have then but there are costs.  
>> 
>> I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part of 
>> a bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean but 
>> I still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died 
>> several times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the case 
>> to rust.  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.  
>> 
>> At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes many 
>> UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and deplete the 
>> battery; APC Smart UPS are more tolerant.  
>> 
>> I have an underground 500 gal LP tank (which only holds 400 gal) that should 
>> be good for a couple of days.  An above-ground thank would be cheaper and 
>> would let ne switch LP suppliers; but SWMBO said no to above-ground.  
>> 
>> Overall, I have no complaints

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Some years ago I had a spreadsheet that would compare various fuel sources. I 
remember one year when oil was high and I didn't have good wood supply that 
electric was the way to go. I also remember one year in the polar vortex where 
I was really glad I'd laid in a good wood supply.
I buy my wood green, it increases in value by sitting in the backyard. With our 
current boiler its slightly cheaper to heat with wood. Once we replace the 
boiler and gain some efficiency it'll probably be cheaper to use oil. I'll 
probably still burn a bunch of wood, it gives me something to do...
-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 9:01:17 PM EST, Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 > Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you pay 
 > for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper.

If you have to buy firewood it's not cost-effective.  I've never paid for any, 
but there's certainly
a labor component involved.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

Speaking of propane, in the 5 years we have been here, I have never used the 2 
big overhead gas heaters in the shop. Would make work out there so much better. 
I need to either lease or buy a propane tank and get it filled. Every time I 
think about it, it’s winter. When is the best time of year to do this as far as 
pricing is concerned? I figured summer time.  What is the going price of 
propane there days?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:17 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm debating what to put in the farmhouse. I'd like to go propane but not 
> sure that the copper pipes I'm used to still meet code. My parents house has 
> a copper line but that was put in back in 1980...
> 
> What ever I do will almost certainly be a used stove (probably gas). I'm not 
> refurbishing an 1890s farmhouse and making it look like a modern condo.
> 
> -Curt
> 
> On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 6:37:42 PM EST, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off propane, and 
> also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. Maybe even replace the 
> stove/oven with propane instead of electric 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice 
> > storm.  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the 
> > generator running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice 
> > to have then but there are costs.  
> > 
> > I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part of 
> > a bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean but 
> > I still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died 
> > several times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the 
> > case to rust.  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.  
> > 
> > At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes 
> > many UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and deplete 
> > the battery; APC Smart UPS are more tolerant.  
> > 
> > I have an underground 500 gal LP tank (which only holds 400 gal) that 
> > should be good for a couple of days.  An above-ground thank would be 
> > cheaper and would let ne switch LP suppliers; but SWMBO said no to 
> > above-ground.  
> > 
> > Overall, I have no complaints but frankly, the few recent power outages 
> > didn't justify the expense.  However, long power outages were very common 
> > previously and SWMBO would not be able to manage a manual system (I 
> > traveled for work in those days).
> > 
> > For short outages, an 8-10 KW (electric start) gasoline generator should do 
> > the job much cheaper.  The plug-in output cord can be wired to a power 
> > panel with a mechanical interlock fairly inexpensively (if code allows).  
> > The main drawback of this setup, IMO, is storing gasoline and keeping it 
> > fresh. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> > Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 4:27 PM
> > To: Okie Benz 
> > Cc: Dan Penoff 
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> > 
> > It does make life far easier and less likely to be interrupted. Big up 
> > front cost, though, if you do it right.
> > 
> > -D
> > 
> >> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >> Being that we are total electric here, I should get a backup generator one 
> >> of these day. 
> >> 
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> 
> >>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
> >>>>  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my 
> >>> annual fill for the standby generator…
> >>> 
> >>> -D shoveling sun and a little bit of rain today in the near 80s
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
> >>>>  wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, 
> >>>> snow blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 
> >>>> 30 minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end 
> >>>> up having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. 
> >>>> It would Most definitely 

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Curt Raymond  writes:

> For cooking/heating use I don't think tank size is a problem until you
> get down to the BBQ (20#) tank size. I remember reading that at -20F a
> BBQ tank wouldn't produce enough vapor pressure to run a stove but I
> suppose that depends on what stove.

I have a propane heater I sometimes use in the garage (torpedo
heater). With a 20# BBQ tank, the tank will start to frost up after
about 30 min and the burner flame/heat output diminishes. This is at far
above -20F, maybe more like +30F or so.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you pay for 
> firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper.

If you have to buy firewood it's not cost-effective.  I've never paid for any, 
but there's certainly
a labor component involved.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off propane, and 
> also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. Maybe even replace the 
> stove/oven with propane instead of electric 

Co-generation is nice.  Use the waste heat from the genny to heat the shop.  
When
Big Bertha is on the whole garage gets warm, even with the bay doors open.  It 
lives in
the garage.  45kW Kohler.  3g/h on propane even with no load.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 For cooking/heating use I don't think tank size is a problem until you get 
down to the BBQ (20#) tank size. I remember reading that at -20F a BBQ tank 
wouldn't produce enough vapor pressure to run a stove but I suppose that 
depends on what stove.
Even in northern Maine a lot of folks use 100# tanks for cooking and heating 
and it gets to -30F there fairly regularly.
I suspect that the hourly usage of a large compressor would be more than a 
stove which could lead to the tank freezing up but I think it'd have to be 
really cold.
-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:49:10 PM EST, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Scott Ritchey via Mercedes  writes:

> The tank needs to absorb enough heat from the environment to "boil
> off" LP gas as you use it.

Is there some way to use the waste heat from the generator engine to
heat the LP tank? You probably wouldn't need to do it in the summer
though.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Scott Ritchey via Mercedes  writes:

> The tank needs to absorb enough heat from the environment to "boil
> off" LP gas as you use it.

Is there some way to use the waste heat from the generator engine to
heat the LP tank? You probably wouldn't need to do it in the summer
though.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

I have a thousand gallon propane tank in the back yard I use to fuel the 
furnace in the pole barn.  When my parents built the house in 1956 propane and 
fuel oil were the two choices, no natural gas line. 

When the local utility put in natural gas in the 80's Mom got tapped in and 
converted the furnace in the house (hot water boiler) and got a gas stove --Pop 
would not put in a gas stove due propane being denser than air -- had 
investigated a few explosions due to propane or butane pooling in a basement.  

I don't keep the tank full, usually only use a couple hundred gallons a year.  
Still have a propane wall furnace in the room Mom and Pop converted from a big 
porch, but I've not used it in years.  I have it there if the power goes out 
for an extended period, it will probably keep the pipes from freezing.
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 This reminds me of a question about tanks.I've got 4x 100# tanks that have 
been on the farm, well probably 50 years. Are they useful for refilling or 
should I send them for recycling? We've never refilled them for the camp 
because they're hard to handle and we only use 2x 20# cans in a normal week at 
camp. Actually before we got the fridge we wouldn't even use 2 full tanks.

-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 8:18:07 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the backup 
system and which don't (unless you get a really big generator).  The typical 
home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is almost 50KW.  My house already 
had an outdoor breaker panel as part of the meter and an indoor fuse box (which 
became a breaker panel). I tried to put all the critical circuits on the indoor 
breaker panel and then power that panel through the transfer switch (so 
everything on the indoor CB panel could be generator powered).  The electrician 
did not exactly follow my desires so neither heat pump is on the generator.  
That is only a problem in summer because I have LP fireplaces.  Some of the 
Generac kits include a sub-panel (of sorts) that you mount next to the main 
(existing panel).  That critical circuits get moved to that subpanel and that 
subpanel is powered through the transfer switch.  But I think that setup looks 
crappy in the main part of the house.

Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the transfer switch 
but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. There are devices you can 
use for specific loads, like a water heater, that will disconnect that load if 
it detects the generator is overloaded.

In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year the rent 
can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver LP to the tank.  
If the tank is above ground, switching to a different LP supplier (who will 
provide his own tank) is easy.  Generators use LP quickly, at least compared 
with other things.  One of the reasons for a larger tank is to maintain 
pressure during high usage.  The tank needs to absorb enough heat from the 
environment to "boil off" LP gas as you use it. 

Preferably, locate the generator so the engine exhaust will blow away from the 
house. 



-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:37 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off propane, and 
also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. Maybe even replace the 
stove/oven with propane instead of electric 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice storm. 
>  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the generator 
> running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice to have 
> then but there are costs.  
> 
> I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part of a 
> bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean but I 
> still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died several 
> times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the case to rust. 
>  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.  
> 
> At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes many 
> UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and deplete the 
> battery; APC Smart UPS are more tolerant.  
> 
> I have an underground 500 gal LP tank (which only holds 400 gal) that should 
> be good for a couple of days.  An above-ground thank would be cheaper and 
> would let ne switch LP suppliers; but SWMBO said no to above-ground.  
> 
> Overall, I have no complaints but frankly, the few recent power outages 
> didn't justify the expense.  However, long power outages were very common 
> previously and SWMBO would not be able to manage a manual system (I traveled 
> for work in those days).
> 
> For short outages, an 8-10 KW (electric start) gasoline generator should do 
> the job much cheaper.  The plug-in output cord can be wired to a power panel 
> with a mechanical interlock fairly inexpensively (if code allows).  The main 
> drawback of this setup, IMO, is storing gasoline and keeping it fresh. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 4:27 PM
> To: Okie Benz 
> Cc: Dan Penoff 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> It does make life far easier and less likely to be interrupted. Big up front 
> cost, though, if you do it right.
> 
> -D
> 
>&

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Kaleb,  You need to think through which circuits need to be on the backup 
system and which don't (unless you get a really big generator).  The typical 
home has a 200 amp service entrance, which is almost 50KW.  My house already 
had an outdoor breaker panel as part of the meter and an indoor fuse box (which 
became a breaker panel). I tried to put all the critical circuits on the indoor 
breaker panel and then power that panel through the transfer switch (so 
everything on the indoor CB panel could be generator powered).  The electrician 
did not exactly follow my desires so neither heat pump is on the generator.  
That is only a problem in summer because I have LP fireplaces.  Some of the 
Generac kits include a sub-panel (of sorts) that you mount next to the main 
(existing panel).  That critical circuits get moved to that subpanel and that 
subpanel is powered through the transfer switch.  But I think that setup looks 
crappy in the main part of the house.

Another option is to power the whole-house panel through the transfer switch 
but selective turn off unnecessary breakers. Finally. There are devices you can 
use for specific loads, like a water heater, that will disconnect that load if 
it detects the generator is overloaded.

In NC, you can buy or rent the tank.  If you use enough LP in a year the rent 
can be free.  But if you rent, only that company can deliver LP to the tank.  
If the tank is above ground, switching to a different LP supplier (who will 
provide his own tank) is easy.  Generators use LP quickly, at least compared 
with other things.  One of the reasons for a larger tank is to maintain 
pressure during high usage.  The tank needs to absorb enough heat from the 
environment to "boil off" LP gas as you use it. 

Preferably, locate the generator so the engine exhaust will blow away from the 
house. 



-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 6:37 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Kaleb Striplin 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off propane, and 
also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. Maybe even replace the 
stove/oven with propane instead of electric 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice storm. 
>  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the generator 
> running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice to have 
> then but there are costs.  
> 
> I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part of a 
> bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean but I 
> still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died several 
> times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the case to rust. 
>  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.  
> 
> At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes many 
> UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and deplete the 
> battery; APC Smart UPS are more tolerant.  
> 
> I have an underground 500 gal LP tank (which only holds 400 gal) that should 
> be good for a couple of days.  An above-ground thank would be cheaper and 
> would let ne switch LP suppliers; but SWMBO said no to above-ground.  
> 
> Overall, I have no complaints but frankly, the few recent power outages 
> didn't justify the expense.  However, long power outages were very common 
> previously and SWMBO would not be able to manage a manual system (I traveled 
> for work in those days).
> 
> For short outages, an 8-10 KW (electric start) gasoline generator should do 
> the job much cheaper.  The plug-in output cord can be wired to a power panel 
> with a mechanical interlock fairly inexpensively (if code allows).  The main 
> drawback of this setup, IMO, is storing gasoline and keeping it fresh. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 4:27 PM
> To: Okie Benz 
> Cc: Dan Penoff 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> It does make life far easier and less likely to be interrupted. Big up front 
> cost, though, if you do it right.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Being that we are total electric here, I should get a backup generator one 
>> of these day. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my 
>>> annual fill for the standby generator…
>

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I'm debating what to put in the farmhouse. I'd like to go propane but not sure 
that the copper pipes I'm used to still meet code. My parents house has a 
copper line but that was put in back in 1980...
What ever I do will almost certainly be a used stove (probably gas). I'm not 
refurbishing an 1890s farmhouse and making it look like a modern condo.

-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 6:37:42 PM EST, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off propane, and 
also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. Maybe even replace the 
stove/oven with propane instead of electric 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice storm. 
>  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the generator 
> running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice to have 
> then but there are costs.  
> 
> I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part of a 
> bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean but I 
> still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died several 
> times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the case to rust. 
>  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.  
> 
> At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes many 
> UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and deplete the 
> battery; APC Smart UPS are more tolerant.  
> 
> I have an underground 500 gal LP tank (which only holds 400 gal) that should 
> be good for a couple of days.  An above-ground thank would be cheaper and 
> would let ne switch LP suppliers; but SWMBO said no to above-ground.  
> 
> Overall, I have no complaints but frankly, the few recent power outages 
> didn't justify the expense.  However, long power outages were very common 
> previously and SWMBO would not be able to manage a manual system (I traveled 
> for work in those days).
> 
> For short outages, an 8-10 KW (electric start) gasoline generator should do 
> the job much cheaper.  The plug-in output cord can be wired to a power panel 
> with a mechanical interlock fairly inexpensively (if code allows).  The main 
> drawback of this setup, IMO, is storing gasoline and keeping it fresh. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 4:27 PM
> To: Okie Benz 
> Cc: Dan Penoff 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> It does make life far easier and less likely to be interrupted. Big up front 
> cost, though, if you do it right.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Being that we are total electric here, I should get a backup generator one 
>> of these day. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my 
>>> annual fill for the standby generator…
>>> 
>>> -D shoveling sun and a little bit of rain today in the near 80s
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, 
>>>> snow blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 
>>>> 30 minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up 
>>>> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It 
>>>> would Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time 
>>>> you pay for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep 
>>>> firewood around for use in the case of emergency.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>> 
>>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>> 
>>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/lis

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I'm super pleased with my Battery Minder. The batteries in the Pisten Bully 
were pretty much flat when I tried to start it back in December. I hauled them 
home and gave each 24 hours on the Minder in maintenance (desulfate?) mode and 
24 hours on the dumb charger at 6 amps. I don't remember what size they are but 
they're big, like you'd have in a diesel Mercedes.
Back in the machine they worked perfectly, especially the night we had a 
plugged fuel screen and had to crank on it a lot to reprime the system.
At the end of the season I'll put them on the Minder for a week each. I did 
that with the ASV before the season started. Shoulda done the Bully too but 
nobody asked.

-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 6:11:54 PM EST, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice storm.  
I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the generator 
running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice to have then 
but there are costs.  

I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part of a 
bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean but I 
still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died several 
times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the case to rust.  
I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.  

At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes many 
UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and deplete the 
battery; APC Smart UPS are more tolerant.  

I have an underground 500 gal LP tank (which only holds 400 gal) that should be 
good for a couple of days.  An above-ground thank would be cheaper and would 
let ne switch LP suppliers; but SWMBO said no to above-ground.  

Overall, I have no complaints but frankly, the few recent power outages didn't 
justify the expense.  However, long power outages were very common previously 
and SWMBO would not be able to manage a manual system (I traveled for work in 
those days).

For short outages, an 8-10 KW (electric start) gasoline generator should do the 
job much cheaper.  The plug-in output cord can be wired to a power panel with a 
mechanical interlock fairly inexpensively (if code allows).  The main drawback 
of this setup, IMO, is storing gasoline and keeping it fresh. 



-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 4:27 PM
To: Okie Benz 
Cc: Dan Penoff 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

It does make life far easier and less likely to be interrupted. Big up front 
cost, though, if you do it right.

-D

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Being that we are total electric here, I should get a backup generator one of 
> these day. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my 
>> annual fill for the standby generator…
>> 
>> -D shoveling sun and a little bit of rain today in the near 80s
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, 
>>> snow blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30 
>>> minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up 
>>> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It 
>>> would Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you 
>>> pay for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood 
>>> around for use in the case of emergency.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


___
http://www.o

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Geez, I wish we had 12". We've gotten maybe that much this year total and its 
all been fluffy light stuff, hardly worth grooming.
We've been out twice this year though. I'm training a new guy which is fun for 
me. I think the other groomer operators like having me do the training. They're 
both good operators but have a really hard time letting somebody else take 
control.
-Curt

On Sunday, February 14, 2021, 5:44:18 PM EST, greg via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 We've had more snow than I can remember for here, about 12" accumulation.
There are lots of power outages just south of here, freezing rain has
taken down trees. I'm lucky power has not been interrupted here, I should
have an emergency supply of wood for the stove.

Greg in the PNW

> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow
> blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30
> minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up
> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It
> would
> Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you pay
> for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood
> around for use in the case of emergency.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>



___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

  
___
http://www.okiebenz.com

To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/

To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

The terms LP and Propane are used interchangeably,  But technically, propane is 
a one particular gas molecule while LP usually contains several different gas 
molecules.  But they all burn just fine.  Compared to natural gas, LP is liquid 
(much denser) at relatively low pressures.  Compressed natural gas must be 
stored under much higher pressures (thousands of psi).  One drawback of LP (vs 
CNG) is that LP is heavier than air and can accumulate on low places (like a 
basement or bilge of a boat).  LP prices tend to track the price of gasoline 
unless you buy a lot at a time.  The delivery trucks and personnel are a large 
part of the cost of selling residential LP.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of OK Don via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 7:00 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: OK Don 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

I need to do the same, but there will be a bunch of re-wiring to be done.
Our system is a mess form historical add-ons and no requirement to follow codes.
Is LP and propane the same thing?

On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 5:37 PM Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes < 
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off 
> propane, and also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. 
> Maybe even replace the stove/oven with propane instead of electric
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an 
> > ice
> storm.  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the 
> generator running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was 
> nice to have then but there are costs.
> >
> > I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was 
> > part
> of a bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty 
> clean but I still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start 
> battery has died several times without much warning and battery acid 
> damaged allowed the case to rust.  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that 
> will help.
> >
> > At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which 
> > causes
> many UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and 
> deplete the battery; APC Smart UPS are more tolerant.
> >
> > I have an underground 500 gal LP tank (which only holds 400 gal) 
> > that
> should be good for a couple of days.  An above-ground thank would be 
> cheaper and would let ne switch LP suppliers; but SWMBO said no to 
> above-ground.
> >
> > Overall, I have no complaints but frankly, the few recent power 
> > outages
> didn't justify the expense.  However, long power outages were very 
> common previously and SWMBO would not be able to manage a manual 
> system (I traveled for work in those days).
> >
> > For short outages, an 8-10 KW (electric start) gasoline generator 
> > should
> do the job much cheaper.  The plug-in output cord can be wired to a 
> power panel with a mechanical interlock fairly inexpensively (if code allows).
> The main drawback of this setup, IMO, is storing gasoline and keeping 
> it fresh.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> > Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 4:27 PM
> > To: Okie Benz 
> > Cc: Dan Penoff 
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> >
> > It does make life far easier and less likely to be interrupted. Big 
> > up
> front cost, though, if you do it right.
> >
> > -D
> >
> >> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Being that we are total electric here, I should get a backup 
> >> generator
> one of these day.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my 
> >>> annual fill for the standby generator…
> >>>
> >>> -D shoveling sun and a little bit of rain today in the near 80s
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, 
> >>>> snow blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over 
> >>>> the
> last 30 minutes the power has been going out off and on. No g

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[OK Don via Mercedes]

I need to do the same, but there will be a bunch of re-wiring to be done.
Our system is a mess form historical add-ons and no requirement to follow
codes.
Is LP and propane the same thing?

On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 5:37 PM Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off propane,
> and also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. Maybe even
> replace the stove/oven with propane instead of electric
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice
> storm.  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the
> generator running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice
> to have then but there are costs.
> >
> > I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part
> of a bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean
> but I still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died
> several times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the
> case to rust.  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.
> >
> > At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes
> many UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and deplete
> the battery; APC Smart UPS are more tolerant.
> >
> > I have an underground 500 gal LP tank (which only holds 400 gal) that
> should be good for a couple of days.  An above-ground thank would be
> cheaper and would let ne switch LP suppliers; but SWMBO said no to
> above-ground.
> >
> > Overall, I have no complaints but frankly, the few recent power outages
> didn't justify the expense.  However, long power outages were very common
> previously and SWMBO would not be able to manage a manual system (I
> traveled for work in those days).
> >
> > For short outages, an 8-10 KW (electric start) gasoline generator should
> do the job much cheaper.  The plug-in output cord can be wired to a power
> panel with a mechanical interlock fairly inexpensively (if code allows).
> The main drawback of this setup, IMO, is storing gasoline and keeping it
> fresh.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> > Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 4:27 PM
> > To: Okie Benz 
> > Cc: Dan Penoff 
> > Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> >
> > It does make life far easier and less likely to be interrupted. Big up
> front cost, though, if you do it right.
> >
> > -D
> >
> >> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Being that we are total electric here, I should get a backup generator
> one of these day.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my
> >>> annual fill for the standby generator…
> >>>
> >>> -D shoveling sun and a little bit of rain today in the near 80s
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10,
> >>>> snow blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the
> last 30 minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end
> up having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It
> would Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you
> pay for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood
> around for use in the case of emergency.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>> ___
> >>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>>>
> >>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >>>>
> >>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> >>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> http://www.okiebenz.com
> >>>
>

Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

I would like to get a whole home backup generator and run it off propane, and 
also run a line out to the shop for the heaters there. Maybe even replace the 
stove/oven with propane instead of electric 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice storm. 
>  I was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the generator 
> running.  That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice to have 
> then but there are costs.  
> 
> I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part of a 
> bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean but I 
> still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died several 
> times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the case to rust. 
>  I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.  
> 
> At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes many 
> UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and deplete the 
> battery; APC Smart UPS are more tolerant.  
> 
> I have an underground 500 gal LP tank (which only holds 400 gal) that should 
> be good for a couple of days.  An above-ground thank would be cheaper and 
> would let ne switch LP suppliers; but SWMBO said no to above-ground.  
> 
> Overall, I have no complaints but frankly, the few recent power outages 
> didn't justify the expense.  However, long power outages were very common 
> previously and SWMBO would not be able to manage a manual system (I traveled 
> for work in those days).
> 
> For short outages, an 8-10 KW (electric start) gasoline generator should do 
> the job much cheaper.  The plug-in output cord can be wired to a power panel 
> with a mechanical interlock fairly inexpensively (if code allows).  The main 
> drawback of this setup, IMO, is storing gasoline and keeping it fresh. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 4:27 PM
> To: Okie Benz 
> Cc: Dan Penoff 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard
> 
> It does make life far easier and less likely to be interrupted. Big up front 
> cost, though, if you do it right.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Being that we are total electric here, I should get a backup generator one 
>> of these day. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my 
>>> annual fill for the standby generator…
>>> 
>>> -D shoveling sun and a little bit of rain today in the near 80s
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, 
>>>> snow blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 
>>>> 30 minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up 
>>>> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It 
>>>> would Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time 
>>>> you pay for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep 
>>>> firewood around for use in the case of emergency.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>>> 
>>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>>> 
>>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> 
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>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Power was out here from about 0700 to noon, probably caused by an ice storm.  I 
was unaware of that until I got to my kitchen and heard the generator running.  
That (15KW Generac) LP-fired standby generator was nice to have then but there 
are costs.  

I think the equipment was about $3500 (in 2005) but the install was part of a 
bigger project so I don't have a number for that.  LP is pretty clean but I 
still do an annual oil and filter change.  The start battery has died several 
times without much warning and battery acid damaged allowed the case to rust.  
I'm using a Battery Minder now, maybe that will help.  

At very light load the output frequency is just over 63 Hz which causes many 
UPS systems to revert to battery power (beep-beep-beep) and deplete the 
battery; APC Smart UPS are more tolerant.  

I have an underground 500 gal LP tank (which only holds 400 gal) that should be 
good for a couple of days.  An above-ground thank would be cheaper and would 
let ne switch LP suppliers; but SWMBO said no to above-ground.  

Overall, I have no complaints but frankly, the few recent power outages didn't 
justify the expense.  However, long power outages were very common previously 
and SWMBO would not be able to manage a manual system (I traveled for work in 
those days).

For short outages, an 8-10 KW (electric start) gasoline generator should do the 
job much cheaper.  The plug-in output cord can be wired to a power panel with a 
mechanical interlock fairly inexpensively (if code allows).  The main drawback 
of this setup, IMO, is storing gasoline and keeping it fresh. 



-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Dan Penoff via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 4:27 PM
To: Okie Benz 
Cc: Dan Penoff 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

It does make life far easier and less likely to be interrupted. Big up front 
cost, though, if you do it right.

-D

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Being that we are total electric here, I should get a backup generator one of 
> these day. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my 
>> annual fill for the standby generator…
>> 
>> -D shoveling sun and a little bit of rain today in the near 80s
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, 
>>> snow blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30 
>>> minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up 
>>> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It 
>>> would Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you 
>>> pay for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood 
>>> around for use in the case of emergency.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
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>> 
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>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[greg via Mercedes]

We've had more snow than I can remember for here, about 12" accumulation.
There are lots of power outages just south of here, freezing rain has
taken down trees. I'm lucky power has not been interrupted here, I should
have an emergency supply of wood for the stove.

Greg in the PNW

> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow
> blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30
> minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up
> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It
> would
> Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you pay
> for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood
> around for use in the case of emergency.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

I think at the time there were only 1 or 2 ties outside of Texas and that 
wasn’t enough. That changed after that incident I believe. Texas has plenty of 
gas to drive gas turbines but it takes time and maybe there wasn’t enough to 
offset the loss of those wind resources. 

--R
Sent from iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:12 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> There are ties through the national grid, believe me. However, some of those 
> are little used, which is the problem. The utilities have a spot market for 
> demand, and it’s based on what time of the day and for how much. Middle of 
> the day in the summertime? Oh, yea, spot prices will be wild. But - you can 
> anticipate that demand and buy contracts in advance, so it’s fairly easy to 
> protect yourself.
> 
> It’s when Mother Nature throws a proverbial wrench in the gears where the 
> utilities get bent over. Texas and other areas who have potentially lost a 
> portion of their local generating capacity will have to go to the spot market 
> to buy imported power. That can’t happen instantly, because of demand and the 
> time it takes to bring more power online by the other utilities.
> 
> AZ Bob can pull out some control rods and make more juice fairly quickly and 
> hydro producers can open the sluice gates if there are more generators 
> available, but the coal and gas fired plants can take hours to increase 
> generating capacity, as they’ve got to spool up more turbines, some of which 
> can take many hours to bring online. You’ve got to have the fuel to do it, 
> too, so that’s another factor.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Some years ago the wind in West Texas just died on New Years Day (I think it 
>> was). It was really cold and power demand was high. All the wind machines 
>> (and there were lots) stopped producing and that was a Big Problem as Texas 
>> was pretty much stand-alone as far as ties into other power grids. So lots 
>> of people were without power on a day when that was unwelcome. Took a long 
>> time to spin up other sources, I don’t recall if there was even enough to 
>> compensate.  I think after that the power companies might have added some 
>> ties to bring in power. 
>> 
>> --R
>> Sent from iPhone
>> 
 On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:20 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Texas is facing the possibility of blackouts as power demand ramps up
>>> with the cold weather.
>>> 
>>> Apparently wind farms can't operate in icing conditions. Who knew?
>>> 
>>> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-14/deep-freeze-sends-gas-soaring-to-600-over-the-long-u-s-weekend
>>> 
>>> Forecast here is for 6-12 inches of snow over the next day or so. Temps
>>> have been in single digits. Nothing too out of the ordinary, but the
>>> past couple of weeks have been the first "real" winter weather we've had
>>> this winter so far. December/January were mostly just chilly with some
>>> rain.
>>> 
>>> Allan
>>> 
>>> Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes  writes:
>>> 
 Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow
 blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30
 minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up
 having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It
 would Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the
 time you pay for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I
 keep firewood around for use in the case of emergency.
 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
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>> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Wind and Solar power require backup generation for whenever the sun don't shine 
(most of the time) and the wind don't blow (varies).  As far as infrastructure 
is concerned that means "green" power generation doesn't replace other sources 
but is IN ADDITION to traditional sources.  Also, the spin-up time for many of 
those traditional sources (especially coal) is so long the backup power really 
needs to be fired up all the time anyway.  Natural gas is much faster, of 
course, but it still takes time to boil water.  The true green answer is (and 
has been) nuclear or hydro.  Instead of screwing around with monster windmills 
we should have been researching and developing better nuclear facilities (like 
molten salts) and faster (cheaper) ways to build and license them.  Of course 
the arm-chair environmental dilatants consider nuclear power unacceptable.  If 
they are serious they should try living off the grid.  Maybe that should be a 
law no juice for greenies.  So much of this environmental "science" is tripe.  
What is the environmental damage to build and recharge those trendy electric 
cars?   I'll bet my 82 SD comes out pretty well on that balance sheet.

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 5:03 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Buggered Benzmail 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

Some years ago the wind in West Texas just died on New Years Day (I think it 
was). It was really cold and power demand was high. All the wind machines (and 
there were lots) stopped producing and that was a Big Problem as Texas was 
pretty much stand-alone as far as ties into other power grids. So lots of 
people were without power on a day when that was unwelcome. Took a long time to 
spin up other sources, I don’t recall if there was even enough to compensate.  
I think after that the power companies might have added some ties to bring in 
power. 

--R
Sent from iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:20 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Texas is facing the possibility of blackouts as power demand ramps up 
> with the cold weather.
> 
> Apparently wind farms can't operate in icing conditions. Who knew?
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-14/deep-freeze-sends-g
> as-soaring-to-600-over-the-long-u-s-weekend
> 
> Forecast here is for 6-12 inches of snow over the next day or so. 
> Temps have been in single digits. Nothing too out of the ordinary, but 
> the past couple of weeks have been the first "real" winter weather 
> we've had this winter so far. December/January were mostly just chilly 
> with some rain.
> 
> Allan
> 
> Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes  writes:
> 
>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, 
>> snow blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the 
>> last 30 minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I 
>> may end up having to haul in some firewood and firing up the 
>> fireplace/insert. It would Most definitely cut down on the heat pump 
>> useable but by the time you pay for firewood I don’t think it would 
>> be any cheaper. I keep firewood around for use in the case of emergency.
>> 
> 
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> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

There are ties through the national grid, believe me. However, some of those 
are little used, which is the problem. The utilities have a spot market for 
demand, and it’s based on what time of the day and for how much. Middle of the 
day in the summertime? Oh, yea, spot prices will be wild. But - you can 
anticipate that demand and buy contracts in advance, so it’s fairly easy to 
protect yourself.

It’s when Mother Nature throws a proverbial wrench in the gears where the 
utilities get bent over. Texas and other areas who have potentially lost a 
portion of their local generating capacity will have to go to the spot market 
to buy imported power. That can’t happen instantly, because of demand and the 
time it takes to bring more power online by the other utilities.

AZ Bob can pull out some control rods and make more juice fairly quickly and 
hydro producers can open the sluice gates if there are more generators 
available, but the coal and gas fired plants can take hours to increase 
generating capacity, as they’ve got to spool up more turbines, some of which 
can take many hours to bring online. You’ve got to have the fuel to do it, too, 
so that’s another factor.

-D

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 5:02 PM, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Some years ago the wind in West Texas just died on New Years Day (I think it 
> was). It was really cold and power demand was high. All the wind machines 
> (and there were lots) stopped producing and that was a Big Problem as Texas 
> was pretty much stand-alone as far as ties into other power grids. So lots of 
> people were without power on a day when that was unwelcome. Took a long time 
> to spin up other sources, I don’t recall if there was even enough to 
> compensate.  I think after that the power companies might have added some 
> ties to bring in power. 
> 
> --R
> Sent from iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:20 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Texas is facing the possibility of blackouts as power demand ramps up
>> with the cold weather.
>> 
>> Apparently wind farms can't operate in icing conditions. Who knew?
>> 
>> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-14/deep-freeze-sends-gas-soaring-to-600-over-the-long-u-s-weekend
>> 
>> Forecast here is for 6-12 inches of snow over the next day or so. Temps
>> have been in single digits. Nothing too out of the ordinary, but the
>> past couple of weeks have been the first "real" winter weather we've had
>> this winter so far. December/January were mostly just chilly with some
>> rain.
>> 
>> Allan
>> 
>> Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes  writes:
>> 
>>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow
>>> blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30
>>> minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up
>>> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It
>>> would Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the
>>> time you pay for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I
>>> keep firewood around for use in the case of emergency.
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

Some years ago the wind in West Texas just died on New Years Day (I think it 
was). It was really cold and power demand was high. All the wind machines (and 
there were lots) stopped producing and that was a Big Problem as Texas was 
pretty much stand-alone as far as ties into other power grids. So lots of 
people were without power on a day when that was unwelcome. Took a long time to 
spin up other sources, I don’t recall if there was even enough to compensate.  
I think after that the power companies might have added some ties to bring in 
power. 

--R
Sent from iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:20 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Texas is facing the possibility of blackouts as power demand ramps up
> with the cold weather.
> 
> Apparently wind farms can't operate in icing conditions. Who knew?
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-14/deep-freeze-sends-gas-soaring-to-600-over-the-long-u-s-weekend
> 
> Forecast here is for 6-12 inches of snow over the next day or so. Temps
> have been in single digits. Nothing too out of the ordinary, but the
> past couple of weeks have been the first "real" winter weather we've had
> this winter so far. December/January were mostly just chilly with some
> rain.
> 
> Allan
> 
> Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes  writes:
> 
>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow
>> blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30
>> minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up
>> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It
>> would Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the
>> time you pay for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I
>> keep firewood around for use in the case of emergency.
>> 
> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

It does make life far easier and less likely to be interrupted. Big up front 
cost, though, if you do it right.

-D

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:24 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Being that we are total electric here, I should get a backup generator one of 
> these day. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my annual 
>> fill for the standby generator…
>> 
>> -D shoveling sun and a little bit of rain today in the near 80s
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow 
>>> blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30 
>>> minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up 
>>> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It would
>>> Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you pay 
>>> for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood around 
>>> for use in the case of emergency. 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

Being that we are total electric here, I should get a backup generator one of 
these day. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my annual 
> fill for the standby generator…
> 
> -D shoveling sun and a little bit of rain today in the near 80s
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow 
>> blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30 
>> minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up 
>> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It would
>> Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you pay 
>> for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood around 
>> for use in the case of emergency. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> ___
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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Texas is facing the possibility of blackouts as power demand ramps up
with the cold weather.

Apparently wind farms can't operate in icing conditions. Who knew?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-14/deep-freeze-sends-gas-soaring-to-600-over-the-long-u-s-weekend

Forecast here is for 6-12 inches of snow over the next day or so. Temps
have been in single digits. Nothing too out of the ordinary, but the
past couple of weeks have been the first "real" winter weather we've had
this winter so far. December/January were mostly just chilly with some
rain.

Allan

Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes  writes:

> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow
> blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30
> minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up
> having to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It
> would Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the
> time you pay for firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I
> keep firewood around for use in the case of emergency.
>

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Re: [MBZ] Blizzard

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

That reminds me, it’s about time to check the propane tank for my annual fill 
for the standby generator…

-D shoveling sun and a little bit of rain today in the near 80s



> On Feb 14, 2021, at 4:12 PM, Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow 
> blowing outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30 
> minutes the power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up having 
> to haul in some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It would
> Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you pay for 
> firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood around for 
> use in the case of emergency. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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[MBZ] Blizzard

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

Blizzard is proceeding, temp is 7 outside with wind chill is -10, snow blowing 
outside. Heat pump pretty much runs non stop. Over the last 30 minutes the 
power has been going out off and on. No good. I may end up having to haul in 
some firewood and firing up the fireplace/insert. It would
Most definitely cut down on the heat pump useable but by the time you pay for 
firewood I don’t think it would be any cheaper. I keep firewood around for use 
in the case of emergency. 

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Randy Bennell]

I assume he is tough as nails too. Did you note that he has taken off 
the padded seat on the sled and rides it sitting on the cold hard body 
of the machine!


Randy

On 09/02/2013 8:15 PM, Dieselhead wrote:
Sir, You are a true connoisseur of old iron.  Wankel panther, 240D, 
IHC M, Snappers, Cub cadet, tons of colemans.  You need a 
Versatrailer.  Got a 45-70 Springfield trapdoor?



1971 Arctic Cat Panther 303W, powered by a Sachs 303cc Wankel Rotary 
engine. About 19hp, 2 stroke, single rotor. Not a real high top 
speed, I had it up to maybe 20 today, it might make 40, but its real 
smooth and has lots of torque, a real good machine for pulling a load.


Some pics from today:
http://i.imgur.com/66IFIGE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/T0rRZo9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/87qa6gf.jpg

Its missing the seat in those pics as I'd replaced the gas line in 
troubleshooting. I've got a seat, its got an awesome leopard skin 
pattern on it.


Some engine shots, these are old but it still looks mostly the same:
http://deadsledwrenchers.net/projects/303engine.JPG
http://deadsledwrenchers.net/projects/303engine2.JPG

-Curt


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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Michael Canfield]

Your knee goes where the seat was and Carharts keep it warm...lol

Mike
On Feb 11, 2013 10:57 AM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote:

 I assume he is tough as nails too. Did you note that he has taken off the
 padded seat on the sled and rides it sitting on the cold hard body of the
 machine!

 Randy

 On 09/02/2013 8:15 PM, Dieselhead wrote:

 Sir, You are a true connoisseur of old iron.  Wankel panther, 240D, IHC
 M, Snappers, Cub cadet, tons of colemans.  You need a Versatrailer.  Got a
 45-70 Springfield trapdoor?


  1971 Arctic Cat Panther 303W, powered by a Sachs 303cc Wankel Rotary
 engine. About 19hp, 2 stroke, single rotor. Not a real high top speed, I
 had it up to maybe 20 today, it might make 40, but its real smooth and has
 lots of torque, a real good machine for pulling a load.

 Some pics from today:
 http://i.imgur.com/66IFIGE.jpg
 http://i.imgur.com/T0rRZo9.jpg
 http://i.imgur.com/87qa6gf.jpg

 Its missing the seat in those pics as I'd replaced the gas line in
 troubleshooting. I've got a seat, its got an awesome leopard skin pattern
 on it.

 Some engine shots, these are old but it still looks mostly the same:
 http://deadsledwrenchers.net/**projects/303engine.JPGhttp://deadsledwrenchers.net/projects/303engine.JPG
 http://deadsledwrenchers.net/**projects/303engine2.JPGhttp://deadsledwrenchers.net/projects/303engine2.JPG

 -Curt


 __**_



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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Randy Bennell]

On 09/02/2013 8:00 PM, Curt Raymond wrote:

1971 Arctic Cat Panther 303W, powered by a Sachs 303cc Wankel Rotary engine. 
About 19hp, 2 stroke, single rotor. Not a real high top speed, I had it up to 
maybe 20 today, it might make 40, but its real smooth and has lots of torque, a 
real good machine for pulling a load.

Some pics from today:
http://i.imgur.com/66IFIGE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/T0rRZo9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/87qa6gf.jpg

Its missing the seat in those pics as I'd replaced the gas line in 
troubleshooting. I've got a seat, its got an awesome leopard skin pattern on it.

Some engine shots, these are old but it still looks mostly the same:
http://deadsledwrenchers.net/projects/303engine.JPG
http://deadsledwrenchers.net/projects/303engine2.JPG

-Curt




Do you have to licence and insure the snowmobiles where you are?
If so, what does that cost you?

I would sort of like to obtain a couple of old and fairly inexpensive 
machines but am reluctant to commit to more annual ongoing costs.


How is parts availability for the old Arctic Cats?

I would guess that Arctic Cat, Ski-Doo and Polaris should be as good as 
it gets with older parts. They sold lots of machines and still exist so 
the odds are probably better than the ones that disappeared.


Randy

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Curt Raymond]

Standing Randy, I was standing...

I'd just replaced the main gas line and had to have the seat off for that. You 
don't sit in deep powder snow anyway, you stand and carve steering by shifting 
your weight.

The seat is in my basement drying out, apparently the tarp over the machine was 
leaking, the padded seat was full of water and frozen hard as a rock!

-Curt

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 09:57:10 -0600
From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!
Message-ID: 511914d6.1060...@bennell.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I assume he is tough as nails too. Did you note that he has taken off 
the padded seat on the sled and rides it sitting on the cold hard body 
of the machine!

Randy

On 09/02/2013 8:15 PM, Dieselhead wrote:
 Sir, You are a true connoisseur of old iron.  Wankel panther, 240D, 
 IHC M, Snappers, Cub cadet, tons of colemans.  You need a 
 Versatrailer.  Got a 45-70 Springfield trapdoor?


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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[WILTON]

OK, all the talk of snow and ice reminded me; here's another Sondrestrom 
tale:


TENDER AMERICAN  A TOUGH GREENLANDER
By Wilton Strickland

One evening at dinner in early December, 1978, while I was Director of 
Engineering at Sondrestrom Air Base, Greenland, a friend reminded me that a 
popular movie was playing at the base theater.  Because it was very cold 
outside (chill factor about -85° F) we rushed to the theater hoping to get 
in without standing in line outside, but we were too late; there was already 
a line of about 25 people.  Though I was wearing thermal underwear and 
boots, regular pants and shirt, a down ski jacket with hood and gloves, I 
was worried about getting frostbite on my uncovered face.  (I had gotten 
some frostbite in Michigan about 5 years earlier - I knew I had to be 
careful.)  While standing in line a few minutes before getting to the ticket 
booth, I hunched down behind my friend trying to shield my face from the 
wind.  I also covered my face lightly with my hands and, for some additional 
heat on my face, exhaled my warm breath into the space between my hands and 
face.  The line moved along reasonably well, and I soon got inside and 
enjoyed the movie.


Before getting up the next morning, I could feel my forehead tingling and 
itching, and when I looked into the mirror to shave, I saw a red, vertical 
streak about ¾ wide down approximately the middle of my forehead - I had 
frostbite again!  As before, the skin on the frozen area came off, and the 
area itched for years.  'Til just a few years ago, I could still see the red 
streak on my forehead occasionally.


At Sunday lunch a few days after the theater incident, somebody mentioned 
that some sled dog teams were down at the port, seven miles away.  (Tourists 
from Europe would occasionally fly in and charter native Greenlander sled 
dog teams for two-week trips from Sondrestrom to a small village on the 
coast or out onto the ice cap a few miles away.)  After lunch, a couple of 
friends rode down to the port with me to see the dog teams.


When we arrived at the port, only one team was still there.  The 
driver/master was busy rounding up his dogs and hitching them to the sled. 
(In Greenland, the 12 to 14 dogs forming a team are hitched to the sled 
individually in a wide, fan pattern; in Canada and Alaska, the dogs are 
hitched in pairs to form two straight, narrow rows in front of the sled to 
facilitate passing between trees.)  One-by-one, the driver attached a rope 
to each dog's harness and placed the dog in position in front of the sled. 
As he would turn away to another dog, those already in position would watch 
the driver/master closely, and when the master was looking away from them, 
they would hurriedly dig into certain cardboard boxes on the sled.  The 
driver caught them doing this two or three times and scolded them harshly 
while kicking them back to their places in front of the sled.


During the few minutes the driver was getting the dogs in place, I stepped 
outside my truck several times to take photos.  The chill factor was still 
about -85° F.  Because I could not operate the camera wearing gloves, 
though, I removed them, focused as much as possible from inside the truck, 
then stepped outside, quickly refined the focus, took the shot and got back 
in the heated truck in just a few seconds.  Before I could finish the photo 
each time, though, my fingers, nose, etc., were tingling and hurting from 
the cold.  I'm certain that, if I had been outside for a few more seconds, I 
would have had frostbite on my fingers and nose.  During the entire time, 
however, the Greenlander was wearing nothing on his head, face, ears and 
hands. What under garments he may have been wearing I don't know, but his 
outer clothing was blue jeans, a plaid shirt and boots/mukluks - no 
additional parka, etc.


He suddenly had all of his dogs in place, made one final and quick motion to 
attach all of the tow ropes to the sled at a single point, and flopped 
quickly down on the sled as the dogs took off.  In a flash, they were down 
the sloped shoreline and moving rapidly down the frozen fjord, the driver's 
head, face, ears and hands still exposed to the extreme arctic conditions.


The mystery to me in all of this: How could my exposed skin freeze so 
quickly and the Greenlander's not under the same conditions at the same 
time?  Had the Greenlander's blood become so acclimated that it contained 
some type of anti-freeze factor, allowing him to tolerate much lower 
temperatures than I?  I still don't know the answer to that question, but my 
simple explanation, meanwhile, is that I was an extremely tender American 
and that was one VERY TOUGH Greenlander.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com

To: Diesel List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!



Standing Randy, I was standing...

I'd just replaced the main

Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Curt Raymond]

It depends what you want to do. For the amount I'll ride the Wankel Panther 
specifically I don't bother. NH, VT and ME have antique snowmobile 
registrations where you pay a one time fee to ride for life. The idea is with 
these old classics with no suspension you're not going to ride a million miles 
a year. For a newer sled like my '78 I'll register, its like $40/yr plus my 
club membership (another $40 or so) which pays for grooming the trails and 
maintaining the bridges and whatnot.

I didn't register last year because of no snow, same thing this year, its too 
late now, we won't be riding for more than a month now...

We can ride on private property with no registration, I know some people so 
I've got some places I can ride to satisfy my need to get out.

-Curt

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 11:38:56 -0600
From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!
Message-ID: 51192cb0.6070...@bennell.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 09/02/2013 8:00 PM, Curt Raymond wrote:
 1971 Arctic Cat Panther 303W, powered by a Sachs 303cc Wankel Rotary engine. 
 About 19hp, 2 stroke, single rotor. Not a real high top speed, I had it up to 
 maybe 20 today, it might make 40, but its real smooth and has lots of torque, 
 a real good machine for pulling a load.

 Some pics from today:
 http://i.imgur.com/66IFIGE.jpg
 http://i.imgur.com/T0rRZo9.jpg
 http://i.imgur.com/87qa6gf.jpg

 Its missing the seat in those pics as I'd replaced the gas line in 
 troubleshooting. I've got a seat, its got an awesome leopard skin pattern on 
 it.

 Some engine shots, these are old but it still looks mostly the same:
 http://deadsledwrenchers.net/projects/303engine.JPG
 http://deadsledwrenchers.net/projects/303engine2.JPG

 -Curt



Do you have to licence and insure the snowmobiles where you are?
If so, what does that cost you?

I would sort of like to obtain a couple of old and fairly inexpensive 
machines but am reluctant to commit to more annual ongoing costs.

How is parts availability for the old Arctic Cats?

I would guess that Arctic Cat, Ski-Doo and Polaris should be as good as 
it gets with older parts. They sold lots of machines and still exist so 
the odds are probably better than the ones that disappeared.

Randy

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Rich Thomas]

, February 11, 2013 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!



Standing Randy, I was standing...

I'd just replaced the main gas line and had to have the seat off for 
that. You don't sit in deep powder snow anyway, you stand and carve 
steering by shifting your weight.


The seat is in my basement drying out, apparently the tarp over the 
machine was leaking, the padded seat was full of water and frozen 
hard as a rock!


-Curt

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 09:57:10 -0600
From: Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!
Message-ID: 511914d6.1060...@bennell.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I assume he is tough as nails too. Did you note that he has taken off
the padded seat on the sled and rides it sitting on the cold hard body
of the machine!

Randy

On 09/02/2013 8:15 PM, Dieselhead wrote:

Sir, You are a true connoisseur of old iron.  Wankel panther, 240D,
IHC M, Snappers, Cub cadet, tons of colemans.  You need a
Versatrailer.  Got a 45-70 Springfield trapdoor?



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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[WILTON]

Thanks.

Acclimation or getting used to it, yes, but physics is physics.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!


You write well.

I think the answer is that you get used to it and it just becomes normal.

--R


On 2/11/13 1:40 PM, WILTON wrote:
OK, all the talk of snow and ice reminded me; here's another Sondrestrom 
tale:


TENDER AMERICAN  A TOUGH GREENLANDER
By Wilton Strickland

One evening at dinner in early December, 1978, while I was Director of 
Engineering at Sondrestrom Air Base, Greenland, a friend reminded me that 
a popular movie was playing at the base theater.  Because it was very cold 
outside (chill factor about -85° F) we rushed to the theater hoping to get 
in without standing in line outside, but we were too late; there was 
already a line of about 25 people.  Though I was wearing thermal underwear 
and boots, regular pants and shirt, a down ski jacket with hood and 
gloves, I was worried about getting frostbite on my uncovered face.  (I 
had gotten some frostbite in Michigan about 5 years earlier - I knew I had 
to be careful.)  While standing in line a few minutes before getting to 
the ticket booth, I hunched down behind my friend trying to shield my face 
from the wind.  I also covered my face lightly with my hands and, for some 
additional heat on my face, exhaled my warm breath into the space between 
my hands and face.  The line moved along reasonably well, and I soon got 
inside and enjoyed the movie.


Before getting up the next morning, I could feel my forehead tingling and 
itching, and when I looked into the mirror to shave, I saw a red, vertical 
streak about ¾ wide down approximately the middle of my forehead - I had 
frostbite again!  As before, the skin on the frozen area came off, and the 
area itched for years. 'Til just a few years ago, I could still see the 
red streak on my forehead occasionally.


At Sunday lunch a few days after the theater incident, somebody mentioned 
that some sled dog teams were down at the port, seven miles away. 
(Tourists from Europe would occasionally fly in and charter native 
Greenlander sled dog teams for two-week trips from Sondrestrom to a small 
village on the coast or out onto the ice cap a few miles away.)  After 
lunch, a couple of friends rode down to the port with me to see the dog 
teams.


When we arrived at the port, only one team was still there.  The 
driver/master was busy rounding up his dogs and hitching them to the sled. 
(In Greenland, the 12 to 14 dogs forming a team are hitched to the sled 
individually in a wide, fan pattern; in Canada and Alaska, the dogs are 
hitched in pairs to form two straight, narrow rows in front of the sled to 
facilitate passing between trees.)  One-by-one, the driver attached a rope 
to each dog's harness and placed the dog in position in front of the sled. 
As he would turn away to another dog, those already in position would 
watch the driver/master closely, and when the master was looking away from 
them, they would hurriedly dig into certain cardboard boxes on the sled. 
The driver caught them doing this two or three times and scolded them 
harshly while kicking them back to their places in front of the sled.


During the few minutes the driver was getting the dogs in place, I stepped 
outside my truck several times to take photos.  The chill factor was still 
about -85° F.  Because I could not operate the camera wearing gloves, 
though, I removed them, focused as much as possible from inside the truck, 
then stepped outside, quickly refined the focus, took the shot and got 
back in the heated truck in just a few seconds.  Before I could finish the 
photo each time, though, my fingers, nose, etc., were tingling and hurting 
from the cold.  I'm certain that, if I had been outside for a few more 
seconds, I would have had frostbite on my fingers and nose. During the 
entire time, however, the Greenlander was wearing nothing on his head, 
face, ears and hands. What under garments he may have been wearing I don't 
know, but his outer clothing was blue jeans, a plaid shirt and 
boots/mukluks - no additional parka, etc.


He suddenly had all of his dogs in place, made one final and quick motion 
to attach all of the tow ropes to the sled at a single point, and flopped 
quickly down on the sled as the dogs took off. In a flash, they were down 
the sloped shoreline and moving rapidly down the frozen fjord, the 
driver's head, face, ears and hands still exposed to the extreme arctic 
conditions.


The mystery to me in all of this: How could my exposed skin freeze so 
quickly and the Greenlander's not under the same conditions at the same 
time?  Had the Greenlander's blood become so acclimated that it contained 
some type of anti-freeze factor, allowing him to tolerate much lower 
temperatures than I?  I

Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[WILTON]

More blizzard stuff:

FROZEN  FANNY
By Wilton Strickland

During the winter of 1973-74, when I was on a B-52H combat crew at Kincheloe 
AFB, MI, another crew member and I attended a dinner party with our wives at 
the Officers Club one evening while on nuclear alert.  Because I was going 
to be inside the club building for three or four hours, I had removed my 
thermal underwear, and was wearing only my cotton undershorts, T-shirt, 
nomex flight suit, and street shoes and socks.  While traveling from the 
alert facility to the club and back, I also wore a flight parka (waist 
length) with a hood and gloves.  As usual, we had additional cold weather 
clothing on the aircraft we could don if we were suddenly called upon to fly 
during this time.  On this particular day, as on many days in the Michigan 
Upper Peninsula, it had snowed hard all day.


Arriving back at the alert facility after the party, we got our crew-cab 
truck stuck in deep snow near our parking space, and as we tried to free the 
vehicle, one of the snow chains came off a rear wheel.  Using snow shovels, 
the driver and I worked for several minutes to remove snow from beneath the 
vehicle and reinstall the chain.  After we had finally parked the vehicle in 
the appropriate space, we went inside the building, where a movie was 
playing in the briefing room.  I stepped inside the briefing room, stood and 
watched the screen for a couple of minutes, then took a seat on the front 
row to watch the rest of the movie.  As I sat down, though, I suddenly felt 
significant pain in the buttocks area - I had frozen my buttocks!  While I 
shoveled snow and reinstalled the chain, my thin flight suit and under 
shorts were pulled tightly across my buttocks, which were elevated to the 
full fury of the blizzard as I bent to the task.  The skin on my buttocks 
came off like sunburn, and the area itched slightly for years.  So, you see, 
I literally froze my fanny off for Uncle Sam, and no, I did not claim a 
Purple Heart for it.  Oh, by the way, I never stood around scratching the 
itch, either - I quietly and simply endured it.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!


You write well.

I think the answer is that you get used to it and it just becomes normal.

--R


On 2/11/13 1:40 PM, WILTON wrote:
OK, all the talk of snow and ice reminded me; here's another Sondrestrom 
tale:


TENDER AMERICAN  A TOUGH GREENLANDER
By Wilton Strickland

One evening at dinner in early December, 1978, while I was Director of 
Engineering at Sondrestrom Air Base, Greenland, a friend reminded me that 
a popular movie was playing at the base theater.  Because it was very cold 
outside (chill factor about -85° F) we rushed to the theater hoping to get 
in without standing in line outside, but we were too late; there was 
already a line of about 25 people.  Though I was wearing thermal underwear 
and boots, regular pants and shirt, a down ski jacket with hood and 
gloves, I was worried about getting frostbite on my uncovered face.  (I 
had gotten some frostbite in Michigan about 5 years earlier - I knew I had 
to be careful.)  While standing in line a few minutes before getting to 
the ticket booth, I hunched down behind my friend trying to shield my face 
from the wind.  I also covered my face lightly with my hands and, for some 
additional heat on my face, exhaled my warm breath into the space between 
my hands and face.  The line moved along reasonably well, and I soon got 
inside and enjoyed the movie.


Before getting up the next morning, I could feel my forehead tingling and 
itching, and when I looked into the mirror to shave, I saw a red, vertical 
streak about ¾ wide down approximately the middle of my forehead - I had 
frostbite again!  As before, the skin on the frozen area came off, and the 
area itched for years. 'Til just a few years ago, I could still see the 
red streak on my forehead occasionally.


At Sunday lunch a few days after the theater incident, somebody mentioned 
that some sled dog teams were down at the port, seven miles away. 
(Tourists from Europe would occasionally fly in and charter native 
Greenlander sled dog teams for two-week trips from Sondrestrom to a small 
village on the coast or out onto the ice cap a few miles away.)  After 
lunch, a couple of friends rode down to the port with me to see the dog 
teams.


When we arrived at the port, only one team was still there.  The 
driver/master was busy rounding up his dogs and hitching them to the sled. 
(In Greenland, the 12 to 14 dogs forming a team are hitched to the sled 
individually in a wide, fan pattern; in Canada and Alaska, the dogs are 
hitched in pairs to form two straight, narrow rows in front of the sled to 
facilitate passing between trees.)  One-by-one, the driver attached a rope 
to each dog's

Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Jon Agne]

No the new ones are much better and easier to usenot to mention safer, 
BUT you will pay  for them.  I think I paid $200 in 1985 for mine (BTW, 
it's a 1971, not 69), and it cost about $235 brand new in 1971 which is about 
$1300 in today's dollars.

Every time I take mine in for service, the owner down at the Arien's dealer ups 
his trade offer.  The latest one was $300, but I really don't want to spend 
another 600-900 for something I really don't need.

Here is the latest comparable model

http://brunswick-home-garden-shop.ariensstore.com/seriespage/deluxe/?uid=debae84b-6cbd-4d13-9609-7e631e7c6295vid=88fe12c2-35da-4fd3-b528-ae454dc96e01promocode=DEFvcd=_anceneneaeralidx=0

They do make a slightly smaller version for a little less money.

Jon

Mechanized snow machinery is always authorized in the household budget.


On Feb 9, 2013, at 9:03 PM, dsereta...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Well my back hurts like hell now! I think I have to get one of those. Are the 
 old ones better?
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Feb 9, 2013, at 8:37 PM, Jon Agne jonag...@gwi.net wrote:
 
 1969 Ariensbest investment I made in 1985!
 
 
 On Feb 9, 2013, at 7:54 PM, dsereta...@yahoo.com wrote:
 

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! Memories...

[Dan Penoff]

Kevin,

I do some work with JAWS, as the son of some friends is visually impaired 
(almost totally blind since birth.)  Every time Lawrence gets a new computer I 
have to go over and set JAWS up for him.

It's a pretty amazing piece of software and really does a good job.

As an aside, Lawrence used to be a character on a very popular local radio 
show called Bubba the Love Sponge.  He even did some blind videos - do be 
aware that this is not safe for work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T9JCKn5Yd4

Dan


On Feb 9, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Kevin Kraly wrote:

 Jerry,
 
 Since I'm blind, the program, JAWS for windows, converts text on the screen 
 to synthesized speech so I can hear both what I'm typing and what is on the 
 screen.  It does have pretty good pronunciation of most words, but there are 
 a few every once in a while that it doesn't get right.
 
 Kevin in LaPorte, CO 
 
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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Max Dillon]

Lol, great rifle story!
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:

The old man does. Its okay I suppose but I prefer the .50-70 Sharps
Cavalry carbine. The rod and gun club he goes to has a swinging metal
plate thats probably 3 inches thick, maybe 12 inches in diameter. Dad
and I were there one day with the Sharps and a couple guys were
peppering it with a .223, it'd ting and swing ever so slightly, they
kept at it and with careful timing could get it to swing maybe an inch.
I took one shot with the Sharps and flipped it clean around. Its not
how many shots you take, its the 400 grain projectile.

Dad has a bunch of interesting guns, right now hes collecting military
rifles from 1870 - 1890, basically the first metallic cartridge guns. I
can't even keep up with what hes got...

-Curt

Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 20:15:20 -0600
From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!
Message-ID: a0624080dcd3cb23899d7@[192.168.1.51]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ; format=flowed

Sir, You are a true connoisseur of old iron.  Wankel panther, 240D, 
IHC M, Snappers, Cub cadet, tons of colemans.  You need a 
Versatrailer.  Got a 45-70 Springfield trapdoor?

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Jim Cathey]

Mechanized snow machinery is always authorized in the household 
budget.


You would have thought so:

http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/Mog/blowerload.jpg

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Dieselhead]

Mechanized snow machinery is always authorized in the household 
budget, unless there is a Unimog or tractor, or pickup involved.


You would have thought so:

http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/Mog/blowerload.jpg

-- Jim

 How's that for an edit?

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Allan Streib]

Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net writes:


   http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/Mog/blowerload.jpg


http://bringatrailer.com/2009/02/15/1968-mercedes-benz-unimog-snow-blower/

-- 
Allan Streib

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Max Dillon]

My favorite comment:  would be great in a zombie attack situation.  Aye!
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'95 E300, '87 300TD, '73 Balboa 20

Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu wrote:



http://bringatrailer.com/2009/02/15/1968-mercedes-benz-unimog-snow-blower/


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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[OK Don]

Ah, but don't discount the difference the driver makes! I routinely drove
away from 4WD Jeeps and trucks on the ice at stop signs in OKC in my first
FWD car - the '74 Saab Sonnett. It was very light, but capable in the
slippery stuff. Then again, I never had much trouble with the V8 MGA either.

On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 12:39 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote:

 IIRC, Click  Clack put everybody's favorite FWD snow
 car (a Camry, I think, or was it an Accord?) up against
 some ancient giant boat of a RWD American car, both with
 snow tires but no other special preparation, and the
 boat kicked the rice cakes out of the FWD car in the snow.

 Their point was, it's all about weight.  FWD was only
 'advantageous' because it puts all of a light car's drivetrain
 weight over the driven wheels, compensating for the overall
 lightening of more economical cars.  Same reason the
 old VW bug, though light, was pretty good in the snow.
 (Would have been a good winter car, if you didn't care
 about heat.)

 But bags of sand are pretty cheap, and are usually pretty
 easy to deploy in a RWD car.

 -- Jim





-- 
OK Don
2001 ML320
2012 Passat TDI DSG
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
1957 C182A
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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[WILTON]

Driver's attitude and knowledge of and practice of basic physics are 
extremely important when driving on/in snow and ice.  I never had any 
problems driving in Nebraska with snow tires on '56 Chevy; even left NE 
early morning of 1 Mar 60 with everything we owned in car and utility 
trailer; broke trail down middle of road through 8 to 10 of new snow all 
the way across Iowa; 'passed many cars that night stuck on WV turnpike - we 
never stopped rolling until we got to a motel just off southern end.  Also, 
never had any problem in snow ice, etc., with Sears steel belted radials (no 
snow tires) for 4 years in MI UP; no snow tires on truck in Greenland, 
either - just several sand bags in cargo bed.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: OK Don okd...@gmail.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!



Ah, but don't discount the difference the driver makes! I routinely drove
away from 4WD Jeeps and trucks on the ice at stop signs in OKC in my first
FWD car - the '74 Saab Sonnett. It was very light, but capable in the
slippery stuff. Then again, I never had much trouble with the V8 MGA 
either.


On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 12:39 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net 
wrote:



IIRC, Click  Clack put everybody's favorite FWD snow
car (a Camry, I think, or was it an Accord?) up against
some ancient giant boat of a RWD American car, both with
snow tires but no other special preparation, and the
boat kicked the rice cakes out of the FWD car in the snow.

Their point was, it's all about weight.  FWD was only
'advantageous' because it puts all of a light car's drivetrain
weight over the driven wheels, compensating for the overall
lightening of more economical cars.  Same reason the
old VW bug, though light, was pretty good in the snow.
(Would have been a good winter car, if you didn't care
about heat.)

But bags of sand are pretty cheap, and are usually pretty
easy to deploy in a RWD car.

-- Jim






--
OK Don
2001 ML320
2012 Passat TDI DSG
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
1957 C182A
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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Jim Cathey]

You have got to be joking.  Mine tries to kill me.  Even with 150lbs of
sand in the trunk...
Maybe the snow tires really make a difference.


Dude, you would not believe it.  I'm fond of Nokian.  Hakka 1's
on the Frankenheap.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Mitch Haley]

Allan Streib wrote:


Maybe the snow tires really make a difference.


Quebec claims a major decrease in winter crashes since they mandated snow tires.
I wonder if the gains will hold after all those brand new snow tires get worn 
down to the new legal limit.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! Memories...

[Gerry Archer]

This has to do with the hearing impaired.  Will your synthesized speech 
program quickly turn ordinary speech into synthesized speech?  If so, what 
is the name of the program?

Thanks,
Gerry

From: Kevin Kraly kevinpadd...@gmail.com

I'd be amazed if you could type a whole email in accent

And the accent is even more entertaining when spoken by my computer's 
synthesized speech!  Hopefully, nawt to many cahs ah snowed ovah along the 
streets neah Hahvahd Squayah aftah this stawm!


Kevin in LaPorte, Colorado, praying for snow since it's been so dry

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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2639/5590 - Release Date: 02/08/13




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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Jaime Kopchinski]

Its true.  For the most part, peoples cars aren't bad in the snow, their
tires are.  All seasons can't compare to dedicated winter tires.  Our S600
and CL600 at work does great in the snow with a fresh set of winter tires.
 I've driven them in some pretty bad conditions.

Jaime



On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:17 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:





 Maybe the snow tires really make a difference.

 Allan
 --
 1983 300D
 1979 300SD


 Good tires are cheap insurance.

 Good tires are the first insurance policy you should buy (and renew)

 Good tires are ones that stick to the road, not necessarily high
 performance tires or expensive.


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-- 
Jaime Kopchinski
http://www.jaimekop.com/
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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Jaime Kopchinski]

Looks like we did well in this storm... well over a foot outside and no
evidence of any wind damage.  Overall, the forecasters did a good job with
this one, the NOAA maps were predicting 12-13 inches for us.  This is our
first good snow fall in two years.

I'm a little disappointed they plowed our street so well here.  Its just a
quiet side street without much traffic.  But they got it down to the
pavement in some spots sometime before 6am.  There will be no fun driving
around later today :-(

Jaime



On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com wrote:

 We're all settled in here in NE New Jersey waiting for the heavy snow to
 start.  Fire is burning, short ribs braising on the the stove, some beer in
 the fridge, and snow blower and generator standing by if needed.  Light
 snow has been falling all day.

 On the way home I was reminded again how good W123s can be in foul
 weather... my ugly Cooper UltraNoise snow tires did a great job of
 navigating the slushy mess out on I-80.  On one hand I feel bad driving it
 in these bad conditions, but I did buy the car for daily driving.  And it
 handles weather like this so well.

 I hope all those north east of hear do ok, should be much worse than what
 they're calling for here.

 Jaime


 --
 Jaime Kopchinski
 http://www.jaimekop.com/




-- 
Jaime Kopchinski
http://www.jaimekop.com/
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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Curt Raymond]

Do tell. I've found a 240D with 100-150# in the trunk to be about the best 
winter car you can get. I'll stack it up against any soft-roader out there, 
especially if I get to have snow tires.

You do need to recalibrate how you drive. With the 240D every start is normally 
an excuse to floor the pedal, but that means in the snow I've got that much 
more space to module the pedal...

-Curt

Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 22:55:52 -0500
From: Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu
To: Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com,mercedes Mailing List
mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!
Message-ID: m162229m47@129-79-49-146.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu
Content-Type: text/plain

Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com writes:

 On the way home I was reminded again how good W123s can be in foul
 weather...

You have got to be joking.  Mine tries to kill me.  Even with 150lbs of
sand in the trunk.

 my ugly Cooper UltraNoise snow tires did a great job of
 navigating the slushy mess out on I-80.  On one hand I feel bad driving it
 in these bad conditions, but I did buy the car for daily driving.  And it
 handles weather like this so well.

Maybe the snow tires really make a difference.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D
1979 300SD

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! Memories...

[Curt Raymond]

The term is in dialect, Mark Twain did it for both Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn.

-Curt

Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 22:21:55 -0600
From: Benz Hogs benz-n-h...@gulseth.net
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD Memories...
Message-ID: 5115cee3.2010...@gulseth.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I'd be amazed if you could type a whole email in accent

Luther   KB5QHUForest Park, IL
'98 ML320 Max (161,xxx mi)

On 2/8/2013 3:58 PM, Rich Thomas wrote:
 So 35 yr ago I was sitting in my 19th floor apartment in Cambridge,
 looking out over the Charles River toward downtown Boston, during the
 Great Blizzard of '78.  I had left with a friend about 3PM from my apt
 to go out to Westwood, MA to get some stuff 

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! Memories...

[Curt Raymond]

Shouldn't be since we had the travel ban, apparently there are a bunch on the 
Long Island Expressway.

I have very little tolerance for those idiots, this storm was hyped up starting 
Wednesday, if you can't get your crap together and stay off the road for one 
dammed day I think we should plow your car off the road and you can be charged 
storage until you can get it in the spring.

-Curt

Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 23:24:25 -0800
From: Kevin Kraly kevinpadd...@gmail.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD Memories...
Message-ID: 2254DA353263494B861933D6BD7BED8F@KDogHP
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=response

I'd be amazed if you could type a whole email in accent

And the accent is even more entertaining when spoken by my computer's 
synthesized speech!  Hopefully, nawt to many cahs ah snowed ovah along the 
streets neah Hahvahd Squayah aftah this stawm!

Kevin in LaPorte, Colorado, praying for snow since it's been so dry 

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! Memories...

[Rich Thomas]

wicket pissah!

--R

On 2/9/13 2:24 AM, Kevin Kraly wrote:

I'd be amazed if you could type a whole email in accent

And the accent is even more entertaining when spoken by my computer's 
synthesized speech!  Hopefully, nawt to many cahs ah snowed ovah along 
the streets neah Hahvahd Squayah aftah this stawm!


Kevin in LaPorte, Colorado, praying for snow since it's been so dry

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[dseretakis]

Yes, when I bought it I wasn't expecting good snow performance as I had been 
used to driving my 220D automatic and a 450 and 560SEL which were not the best.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 9, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Do tell. I've found a 240D with 100-150# in the trunk to be about the best 
 winter car you can get. I'll stack it up against any soft-roader out there, 
 especially if I get to have snow tires.
 
 You do need to recalibrate how you drive. With the 240D every start is 
 normally an excuse to floor the pedal, but that means in the snow I've got 
 that much more space to module the pedal...
 
 -Curt
 
 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 22:55:52 -0500
 From: Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu
 To: Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com,mercedes Mailing List
mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!
 Message-ID: m162229m47@129-79-49-146.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu
 Content-Type: text/plain
 
 Jaime Kopchinski jaime...@gmail.com writes:
 
 On the way home I was reminded again how good W123s can be in foul
 weather...
 
 You have got to be joking.  Mine tries to kill me.  Even with 150lbs of
 sand in the trunk.
 
 my ugly Cooper UltraNoise snow tires did a great job of
 navigating the slushy mess out on I-80.  On one hand I feel bad driving it
 in these bad conditions, but I did buy the car for daily driving.  And it
 handles weather like this so well.
 
 Maybe the snow tires really make a difference.
 
 Allan
 -- 
 1983 300D
 1979 300SD
 
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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Peter Frederick]

I can attest to the poor snow and ice performance with a turbodiesel  
of any type and the 220D, for similar reasons.  The 220D auto has a  
fluid coupling with fixed slip, so it transmits too much torque to the  
rear wheels.  A turbo typically spins up and adds power without direct  
control by the driver, with the result again that there is too much  
torque being applied to the rear wheels.


Good tires make all the difference.  My old Volvo TD would spin on wet  
pavement, let alone ice or snow when I got it, and after 50,000 miles  
the tires looked exactly like they did when I got it -- super hard  
80,000 mile tires.  No traction.  I replaced them with Firestone  
LH-30s, and it became a decent car in ice and snow.  Sadly, those  
tires are no longer available, they've been improved by tires with  
less traction and poorer balance!


Peter

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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Jim Cathey]

I wasn't expecting good snow performance as I had been used to driving 
my 220D automatic and a 450 and 560SEL which were not the best.


My winter car is a 200D manual.  For a short period my wife
was driving the 450SL.  Both riding on Hakkas, and both are/were
pretty darned good in the snow.  In the 200D I've driven on a
badly drifted road, with waves of snow washing over the hood,
and my only problems were ensuring that I was _on_ the road,
and avoiding stopping.

A good set of snow tires and 200# of sand in the back also
transformed my Camaro, a car that loved to spin around normally,
into a not-bad snow car.

The most amazing slippery road performance I have ever personally
experienced was in my Dodge pickup riding on mud/snow tires, with
a 3000# camper in the back!  On a glare ice day when _everybody_
was slipping and sliding around, we didn't even lose traction
once.

It's all about tires.  And weight.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[WILTON]

-And driver attitude.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2013 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD AHHH!!


I wasn't expecting good snow performance as I had been used to driving 
my 220D automatic and a 450 and 560SEL which were not the best.


My winter car is a 200D manual.  For a short period my wife
was driving the 450SL.  Both riding on Hakkas, and both are/were
pretty darned good in the snow.  In the 200D I've driven on a
badly drifted road, with waves of snow washing over the hood,
and my only problems were ensuring that I was _on_ the road,
and avoiding stopping.

A good set of snow tires and 200# of sand in the back also
transformed my Camaro, a car that loved to spin around normally,
into a not-bad snow car.

The most amazing slippery road performance I have ever personally
experienced was in my Dodge pickup riding on mud/snow tires, with
a 3000# camper in the back!  On a glare ice day when _everybody_
was slipping and sliding around, we didn't even lose traction
once.

It's all about tires.  And weight.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] BLIZZARD!!!! AHHH!!

[Dieselhead]

I can attest to the poor snow and ice performance with a turbodiesel 
of any type and the 220D, for similar reasons.  The 220D auto has a 
fluid coupling with fixed slip, so it transmits too much torque to 
the rear wheels.  A turbo typically spins up and adds power without 
direct control by the driver, with the result again that there is 
too much torque being applied to the rear wheels.


Good tires make all the difference.  My old Volvo TD would spin on 
wet pavement, let alone ice or snow when I got it, and after 50,000 
miles the tires looked exactly like they did when I got it -- super 
hard 80,000 mile tires.  No traction.  I replaced them with 
Firestone LH-30s, and it became a decent car in ice and snow. 
Sadly, those tires are no longer available, they've been improved 
by tires with less traction and poorer balance!


Peter


I disagree.  I drove my SDL nearly every day for seven or eight years 
in every kind of condition.  With blizzaks, it would go anywhere 
within reason.  It is obviously a turbodiesel.  I also drove a 123 
300D one winter and it was great too.  It is all about tires.  I 
don't even remember what was on the 300TD, but those tires were 
nothing special.  Just some off brand tire that was on it when I got 
the car.  It was a turbodiesel also.  In those years I averaged over 
50k per year on the SDL or TD, and drove several other vehicles too. 
Turbodiesel or Diesel, MBs handle well in  snow with good tires and 
in most cases, weight in the trunk.I'd still prefer a 110 200D 
2.4 for winter driving.(based on 42 yrs experience driving MBs 
and lotsa other stuff in winter conditions.)


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