[RBW] Re: Fancy Cheviot!

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Kind of the idea is to cram the biggest wheel into any frame that'll fit it 
without actual cramming. As the front wheel inches more forward (a result 
of longer tt, slacker ht, more rake), the room for a bigger tire, and 
bigger tire with fender, increases. In back it's easy, just stretch the 
chainstays. We have a ton of bikes here to measure, ride, test for that, so 
it's pretty easy.  Thanks for liking the V-ness of it, too. That was 
emotionally hard for me, since the longreach Tektro brakes were made at our 
request (John and I met with Tektro people before a trade show  opened, 
gave 'em numbers and wishes, and miracle of miracles, it took nothing more 
than that, and it happened in about ten minutes.) That is a great brake, I 
love it to death, but Will likes V-brakes, and he said, "Let's do 
V-brakes," and sure, why not?

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 9:14:57 PM UTC-7, Drw wrote:
>
> Are we looking at a side pull front and v rear? Sorry just scanned the 
> previous posts. Love the look. Very pleased with what I hope will be full 
> v/canti brakes. 
>
> Wondering about 700c on a 55cm frame. I know it’s very common place and 
> I’ve had a 54cm riv with 700c wheels but it seems like a step back from the 
> “wheelsize 
> Should match the bike size” thing they’ve been doing (that I really like)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/f2c6aff6-3ef0-45d2-9e90-b6f27baf30ab%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] arnulfo Platypus

[Grant @ Rivendell]

I have been intrigued by platypusses since I was in elementary school. Not 
yearly, it hasn't been a mind-worm, but I've always felt a little bit closer to 
them, a little fonder of them and interested in them, than my friends. When I 
was a teenager and young adult, whenever I came across the name for whatever 
reason, it was like coming home, instant comfort. Seriously. I know more about 
them than anybody in the bike business. I know that the Latin name doesn't 
include any variation of "platypus" because a kind of beetle got it first. They 
swim with eyes closed, They have one hole for everything and no stomach. They 
use sonar, have venomous spurs, are NOT endangered, have been around more than 
200 million years (experts argue, but nobody thinks this is outrageous). There 
were early huge ones, three feet long. 

When Europeans started killing and stuffing them in the name of science, they 
were accused of hoaxing. How could this animal exist? And yet, it has existed 
666, 667 times as long as Homo sapiens (if you believe we've been here for 
300,000 years (formerly 200,000), and you go by the 200 million year duration 
of the platypus. It's a successful animal. Less changed, in that time, than any 
other. I don't know what "deserves respect" means...I know the suggestion that 
something does tends to make me take the opposite stance no matter what it is 
we're taking about--but think of it's success. It's not just a funny looking 
animal with a funny name. It is success itself.

Our names are consistently quirky-nutty-dumb-different. A. Homer Hilsen, Sam 
Hillborne, CLEM SMITH JR,Hunqapillar, Glorius, Wilbury, Atlantis (not too 
quirky, there), Roadini, Roadeo, Joe Appaloosa ("Appaloosa" sans Joe sounded 
too mainstream-perfect to me. It was hard to add the Joe, but I like saying we 
have a Homer, Sam, Joe, Clem...  

Platypus won't be Arnulfo Platypus. At one time I was thining of a gender-fluid 
name ("A.", Sam, George, CLEM are all that. Twenty-eight percent of the Georges 
born in the U.S. lack external plumbing.) So it was going to be Leslie or 
Taylor, but even I have my limits.

It is fantastic that so many people feel so strongly. It's flattering even if 
it's not intended to be, and if everybody dug it, I'd think something was 
wrong, and I wouldn't like it anymore.

As I explained to one person privately, in biological taxonomy or whatever it 
is, you know what I'm talking about--Kingdom holds the most, a phylum next 
most, and in descending order of capacity.class-order-family-genus, 
species. 
Kingdom: Inanimatalia?
Phylum: Tangibulis?
Class: Planet-and-animal friendly..us?
Order: Two wheelers
Family: Muscle-powered ones
Genus: Rivendell
Species: Name your model

Once the species has changed enough, it can't be in that species anymore. The 
Pbike comes in the same sizes as the Cheviot, but it's longer, has V-brakes, a 
different mid-joint, bigger wheels in the 55, a different diagastay 
connection...and to me, those things didn't just justify a new name, but 
demanded it. I dig (understand) that Stumpjumpers, Mustangs, and Thunderbirds 
keep their names even though they change, but we don't copy Specialized or Ford.

I am really, really happy with how this bike rides and fits tires, etc. Will 
wanted the V-brakes, and I love Will and happen to also love V-brakes. We both 
knew it would bum out some people, but they're really good brakes. Being good 
brakes doesn't mean the Silver/559 sidepulls aren't. Will is, in his way, as 
much or more of a rebel as I am. He's comfortable with moves that he KNOWS will 
bum people out, as long as he believes he's doing it for the right reason. I 
wouldn't have been that bold, so I'm glad he was. On the other hand, he kinda 
wanted Cheviot to stay, but he's cool with Platypus. He knows all the changes.

This taxonomic ideology is...and ideal. We may have violated it in the past, a 
nd we may do it again, because we're not (or at least I am not) perfect. Hang 
in there with us for a while. These are tough times. We'll get about a hundred 
of these. We don't know what the future holds, and don't read anything into 
that--just look around. I need to name this wonderful bike Platypus. I don't 
want to look back and wish I had, so I'm doing it now. 
My logic is only mine, and yours is yours, and they don't have to fight it out. 
 It's not a right or wrong thing. I don't need total agreement (and wouldn't 
trust it). I do, really really really like that you care. OK then...where were 
we? :)-- Grant

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/610df0f5-b2fc-4d02-bff4-2e83dc53b324%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: Another Riv Financial Situation Thread

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We "crowdsourced" store credits---not donations--- at a critical time for 
us, and if you contributed and haven't bought anything, your credit remains 
on the books. We've never asked for outright donations, and I wouldn't do 
that. Many businesses--from wholesalers like Trek, etc---and virtually all 
local bike shops--buy "on terms"--with 30 to 120 days to  pay for the 
inventory. This is how we buy small parts, but anything that comes from 
Japan, we pay in 1 week before we receive it, and anything from 
Taiwan--bikes, cranks--we pay 60 days before we receive it. This is not 
something we can negotiate. Tubing suppliers, painters, allthose guys have 
to be paid and don't offer payment terms to small guys like us.  In any 
case, it is a formula for horrible cash flow, which is our main angst. 

When I say this stuff, it comes off as whining. I think everybody should do 
(1) restaurant work; and (2) own a small business...for the perspective.

Our customers are excellent. Our critics are relatively few. Our team is 
wonderful. I am not a crackerjack business manager, and that -- not our 
people, bikes, or intentions--will be what kills us. "Just hire a business 
manager" presumes things that aren't true.

If anybody would like to criticize or advise me directly, it's easy. (925) 
933-7304 usually between 10:15 am and 4pm west time (I work mornings from 
home). Or email gr...@rivbike.com. 
On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 3:37:44 PM UTC-8, Eric wrote:
>
> Bob, I appreciate your comment but one would be obtuse to forget that Riv 
> crowdsouced appox $215 thousand dollars. I know for a fact that numerous of 
> the members of Paceline (including myself) contributed.
>
>  And how long ago was that? Less than a year? I totally understand why 
> some fans of Riv would be soured to be hit up again. 
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: In Japan! Any recommendations?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

My favorite non-Blue Lug store in Tokyo is Water Dog Garden in..Musashino? 
But you  have to like dogs.

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:07:24 AM UTC-7, Manuel Acosta wrote:
>
> We'll be bikeless, and will be in Tyoko for a week then Kyoto.
>
> Blug Lug, Sim Works watch a Kerin race, planning on taking a tile class in 
> Kyoto. 
>
> Any other recommendations of things to see or do?
>
> Anyone in Japan that would like to have coffee?
>
>
> Manny 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The next BLAHG will be even more not-intentionally divisive, probably. It 
will have more bike content in it. 

On Sunday, July 1, 2018 at 10:59:48 AM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
>
> Viva De Niro!!??
>
> Apparently Grant is in full agreement with De Niro's vulgar, classless 
> attack on the president. That's fine, he's entitled to his opinion. Me, I'm 
> free to shop elsewhere.
>
> My values and beliefs aren't welcome at Rivendell, so in the future, I'll 
> spend my money elsewhere. No big deal.
> To be honest Grant lost me years ago with the double top tube thing:)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, July 1, 2018 at 12:11:24 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
>>
>> Echoing Joe's thoughts here.
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Dear Riv, please make a wider Noodle

[Grant @ Rivendell]

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 12:22:45 PM UTC-7, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> Nitto tests bars and stems together and wants the bars to break before the 
> stem. The bars are already strong, and they've found that even 51s (we had 
> samples made) impose too much leverage on the stem. The workaround might be 
> to make stronger stems, but then you get into a whole escalating mish-mash 
> where one chases the other, and stems, which have forced dimensions 
> inherited down the line, and then all you can do is make it steel. 
> One of the drawbacks of working with NITTO is accepting their 
> super-prudence in times like this.  It's like, also, when our 66cm Wavie 
> bars come in---we'll recommend them only with CrMo or other Nitto stems 
> intended for mtn bikes. Some will mount them on Tallux (road) stems, but we 
> will recommend something stronger. When NITTO hears "mountain bike riding" 
> they imagine the worst and stupidest. Personally, I don't think at all that 
> Crust is being IMprudent with the widies. It's a good company and they do 
> neat, good things!
>
> On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 1:55:10 PM UTC-7, ctifusion wrote:
>>
>> I'm sure the 666mm Crust bars are way too wide for most, but I love them. 
>> And they don't really make them anyway, I was just in the right place when 
>> they brought out the one run. I keep waiting for someone to put a wide drop 
>> bar into production.
>>
>> I think a 58 Noodle would be a huge hit for a lot of riders. 
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Brynnar
>> Indy
>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Dear Riv, please make a wider Noodle

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Nitto tests bars and stems together and wants the bars to break before the 
stem. The bars are already strong, and they've found that even 51s (we had 
samples made). The workaround might be to make stronger stems, but then you 
get into a whole escalating mish-mash where one chases the other, and 
stems, which have forced dimensions inherited down the line, and then all 
you can do is make it steel. 
One of the drawbacks of working with NITTO is accepting their 
super-prudence in times like this.  It's like, also, when our 66cm Wavie 
bars come in---we'll recommend them only with CrMo or other Nitto stems 
intended for mtn bikes. Some will mount them on Tallux (road) stems, but we 
will recommend something stronger. When NITTO hears "mountain bike riding" 
they imagine the worst and stupidest. Personally, I don't think at all that 
Crust is being IMprudent with the widies. It's a good company and they do 
neat, good things!

On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 1:55:10 PM UTC-7, ctifusion wrote:
>
> I'm sure the 666mm Crust bars are way too wide for most, but I love them. 
> And they don't really make them anyway, I was just in the right place when 
> they brought out the one run. I keep waiting for someone to put a wide drop 
> bar into production.
>
> I think a 58 Noodle would be a huge hit for a lot of riders. 
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Brynnar
> Indy
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Why not a suspension-corrected fork/frame?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The forks lengths follow the tire size and brake requirements, and there's 
so much to it, when you do it the way we do it--some 650b forks are 388, 
some are 370, and there's a 399 looming there. Suspension forks have to be 
super long to account for suspension, and the extra length means extra 
leverage against the frame, which means the downtube has to be extra 
something, too, or it'll cave in. The frame and fork obviously work 
together, but it's not obvious how unarbitrary the lengths of the forks 
are. We could design our frames to work well with superlong forks, or make 
them to work with our forks, but not both, so...

It's still a good question, tho...(and has a good answer, I hope).

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 7:56:05 AM UTC-7, tc wrote:
>
> With the exciting news about a new Riv MTB in the works, I wonder what 
> would be given up by offering it with a suspension-corrected rigid fork to 
> allow those of us who prefer some squish in front to have that option?  I 
> realize it's too late for that, but I can always hope for a "2.0" model :)
>
> And I'd like to stay away from justifying the need for me or anyone else 
> needing a suspension fork, and instead stick to the design principles 
> involved, and mostly the experience of those who've had bikes that were 
> offered with suspension corrected forks/frames and rode them with both 
> setups.  For the type of riding you do/did, did the offset/trail/whatever 
> bug you to the point that you didn't like one version or the other?  Did 
> you really appreciate the flexibility it gave you?  Did you enjoy it both 
> ways, for different purposes?
>
> Tom
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: MTB hints in yesterday's Blahg?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Even though many of the guesses are 75 percent accurate, this bike is bound 
to disappoint throngs, but not by intent. There is already tons of variety 
in mtn bikes. More than a dozen categories--jumpers, pumpers, xc, dh, 
hardtails, fat, plus, e, enduro... No matter what we do, there's going to 
be some overlap, and it's going to be both too much and not enough, 
depending. There will be some THINGS that it doesn't excel at, but it's 
more the rider than the bike, anyway--right?
The record descent of Repack Road (fire trail in Marin County on which 95 
percent of the original mtn bike development took place in the late '70s) 
is 4:22 for all 2 miles and 1,300 feet of it. In late '76 Gary Fisher did 
that on a modified paperboy bike with a coaster brake. About 8 years 
later,  (sorry for the history!) daredevil downhiller Jimmy Deaton, rode it 
on a then-SOA bike in 4:34. 
Those are the facts that feed the notion that the measure of a bike and a 
rider is speed, which I think is way off.  When you design for extreme 
speeds or terrain or surfaces (sand, snow, boulders...) you get an extreme 
bike that psychologizes normal riders into thinking they're worse for being 
normal and let's them buy their way into the glorified extreme world and 
look ready for action on the way back from Trader Joe's. 

The plan with the new bike—which may not even happen—is that it's a 
sufficient platform and maybe no more, for lots of non-extreme trail 
riding, and it's sufficiently different than our other bikes to be barely 
justifiable. 

On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 1:14:09 PM UTC-7, Coal Bee Rye Anne wrote:
>
> I also noticed that hint, but wasn't quite certain how to interpret it.  
> On one hand it made me wonder whether a fatter tired single speeder is in 
> the pipeline (Hunqabeam!) but then I read it again and determined my own 
> selfish desires were too heavily influencing that initial interpretation.  
> Curiouser and curiouser!
>
> Brian Cole
> Lawrenceville, NJ
>
> On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 3:24:19 PM UTC-4, Jeremy Till wrote:
>
>> This might be a stretch, but hey, what's the fun in following a guru if 
>> you can't spend hours parsing his words and interpreting them?  I think 
>> there might be a hint towards an upcoming trail-oriented Riv (or update to 
>> an existing Riv) hidden in this passage from Grant's post yesterday 
>> 
>> : 
>>
>> In mountain bike racing and just riding, it's gone the other way. The 
>>> early guys were riding unsuitably low-tech bikes, then bikes reached a 
>>> basic good level of appropriate technology in the late '80s, and now 
>>> they've borrowed as much as possible—for now—from cars and motorcycles. 
>>> There are reactions to it the other way, with one-speed mountain bikes, but 
>>> those are fading fast because...one gear is too limiting for varied 
>>> terrain. *There's no restraint at that end, and we're going to show 'em 
>>> all what-for sometime late this year, if we can pull it off.*
>>
>>
>> I wonder what it could be...the before-hinted plus-tire Hunqapillar?  
>> Bringing back the Bombadil (probably can't be done under the LOTR gag 
>> order)?  Some other new trail-oriented rig?
>>
>> Honestly, I'm pretty satisfied with my Jones-barred Clem as my MTB 
>> (well...a threadless fork would be nice), so I'm not anxiously awaiting 
>> anything, but it would be interesting to see what they come up with.  
>>
>> Let the speculation begin! 
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Low/No Carb Electrolyte?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

p 83/84 of Just Ride -- a chapter harshly titled "Electrolytes for 
Cheapskates and Dummies" suggests (detail not included here so I don't have 
to type as much)--but basically, heavily diluted OJ + salt...or V-8/tomato 
juice as it is (not the unsalted kind) , or coconut water/milk with salt. 
None of these taste like liquid candy, unfortunately, but if the goal is 
replacing salt and potassium (the main electrolytes lost  in sweat, the two 
you need to "worry" about more than the other few), they will do it.

On Saturday, June 9, 2018 at 12:16:33 PM UTC-7, Pondero wrote:
>
> There is a lot of sweating going on recently, and I'm wondering if anyone 
> can recommend an electrolyte replacement strategy without sugar.  I sense 
> that long summer rides go better when I use Gatorade with water (not water 
> alone).  But I'd like to avoid the sugar/carbs.  Will any salty food do the 
> trick?  Or is there a better way?  Suggestions?
>
> Chris Johnson
> Sanger, Texas
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: When bad fasteners happen to good bikes

[Grant @ Rivendell]

For the record, we've never seen a funky threading on a Clem-or-other 
dropout, but users are capable of messing them up. Clem is especially 
tolerant, tho, because the upper dropout mount is M6 (for the rack), and if 
you mount the rack, as we suggest, on the lower seat stay braze-on (a true 
braze-on that is actually brazed on), you still have at least two options 
for the fenders. If a previous owner munged the threads on the M6 upper, 
you could use an M5 and a nut on that one, or just go one step down and use 
an M5 bolt on the intended fender mount. Current CLEMs go ultrafar with yet 
a third M-5 hole between the two in the main body of the dropout. We put a 
hole there for fun, since it was low stress, and then at the last second 
said, "tape it M5, please," and it was done. So, there are a total of four 
tapped possibilities, two each M5, M6, on each side of the frame down there 
on or near the dropouts, making Clem the least likely frame ever made, I 
think, to foil your efforts to mount what you want down there---because 
there's always an option.

On Wednesday, June 6, 2018 at 10:22:13 PM UTC-7, LeRoy wrote:
>
> The trail that recently led me to this group began when I was Googling 
> information on repairing buggered braze-on threads. A post here entitled 
> *Stripped 
> CLEM dropout braze-on* was absolutely spot-on. My problem was stripped 
> threads on a couple of braze-on fittings on the rear drop out of my 
> new-to-me Clem Smith Jr. This couldn't have been a better match; the 
> collected wisdom in that post exactly addressed my questions and concerns. 
> So, of course, I needed to join up. 
>
> This preamble circles back to the point I suggest in the subject line: *When 
> bad fasteners happen to good bikes*.
>
> While many on this list have owned their bikes since new, others have 
> acquired them second- or third-hand, or some further multiple. Bikes that 
> have passed through numerous sets of hands often suffer from a lesser level 
> of care and feeding than a good bike deserves. What I came across on my 
> third-hand Clem was not just a couple stripped threads -- I've committed 
> that crime myself -- but true fastener innovation.
>
> Those of us whose thinking stays within the box typically use an M6 
> fastener in an M6 threaded hole. It seems to work well enough. But 
> innovative thinkers might consider the use of a vibration-resistant, 
> serrated-flange, self-piercing sheet metal screw in that M6 threaded 
> braze-on. While not an obvious solution, the advantage of this butchery is 
> two-fold. The integrated serrated flange ideally secures the looped wire 
> rod of the rear fender stay, while the self-piercing capability of the 
> thread cuts its own path in the braze-on regardless of preexisting M6x1.0 
> threads. Genius! This particular application deserves bonus points because 
> the perpetrator went so far as to paint the offending fastener in a very 
> close match to the Clem's green frame. It's not without a certain artistry.
>
> Apart from some understandable whining, my purpose in bringing up this 
> topic is to see what kinds of creative destruction others have experienced. 
> I'm throwing down the gauntlet. Can you top this?
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: How crucial is it to chase the threads a derailleur hanger

[Grant @ Rivendell]

If der is reluctant from outside, try it from inside, which tends to have 
less paint. Then (need I say? hope not...) go at it again from the 
outside.  It's an M10 x 1 thread, we have taps, but if it isn't visually 
thick with paint, just a little, we leave it. In my history, the thinking 
was that a little paint does no harm, may act kind of like loctite...but 
one can look foolish arguing that in public. But...I'll note all this to 
the mechanics, who never rush thru a frame and will be aghast and I hope 
even insulted unless I present it perfectly,

On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 8:42:17 AM UTC-7, Bob B wrote:
>
> On a repainted frame that clearly has a coat of paint in the derailleur 
> threads... how crucial is it to chase those threads? Is it incredibly 
> unwise to attempt to slowly mount my RD, backing out of the threads every 
> 1/4 turn or so?
>
> I ask because I don't have a tap handy and I'm under a time crunch to get 
> my bike rebuilt! if theres another tapless workaround, please share! Or, 
> tell me if I'm worried for no reason.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
> Brooklyn, NY
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Clicking noise -- About to lose my mind.

[Grant @ Rivendell]

My most puzzling click was fixed by greasing the post, too...about 42 years 
ago. All the suggesions make sense. Additional notes: The click seems to 
come from wherever you're looking when you're looking for it, and it might 
not be there. Change one thing at a time, not two or more---so you can rule 
out things. At some point remove the right crank and snug the drive-side 
cup. My money's on that, but it's still just a guess.

On Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 9:52:01 AM UTC-7, George Schick wrote:
>
> Ditto to the posters who pointed to the saddle or seat post.  I have a 
> Trek MTB that was driving me crazy with a similar kind of clicking and I 
> was almost certain that it had to be in the drive train.  It kept getting 
> worse every year.  So finally I decided to bite the bullet and start at the 
> front of the bike and work my way toward the rear, checking and tightening 
> every fastener and lubing where a problem might exist.  When I finally got 
> to the saddle I tightened all the bolts holding it in place - still 
> clicked.  Then I pulled out the seat post, greased it lightly and replaced 
> and *voilà!*, the click had disappeared.
>
> On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 11:59:03 PM UTC-5, Rod Holland wrote:
>>
>> I had a clicking saddle, too. Really did seem to be the pedals, but no...
>>
>> rod
>>
>> On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 9:09:48 PM UTC-4, Brett Callahan wrote:
>>>
>>> I had a similar problem and discovered it the seat.  I swore up and down 
>>> that it was a pedal, crank, bottom bracket issues and it ended up being the 
>>> saddle...
>>>
>>> Double, triple, and quadruple check your saddle, which may be producing 
>>> a click in you downstroke at certain cadence.  
>>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] RIV Catalog Arrived

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Ha! So funny. I dig that flexibility.

Other catalog topic, the models: The last paragraph on p. 4 sort of 
addresses the who-where of making bikes, but is intentionally vague, since 
the American Homers, Atlantises, Hunqapillars, and Rodeos might have 
changing futures. We're just working out some things, and in the meantime 
it didn't make sense to say anything declaratively or waste page space 
being so iffy. 

On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 5:22:52 PM UTC-7, Eric Daume wrote:
>
> Oddly, my catalog came the same day I got a generic Chinese carbon fork 
> for my mountain bike.
>
> Clearly, I'm a bit conflicted.
>
> Eric
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 3:05 PM, Chris Birkenmaier  > wrote:
>
>> Just got the mail and there it was - the promised Riv catalog!  I'm going 
>> to wait until after work to savor it with a beer in hand on the back 
>> patio.  Just from the cover, it looks to be of high quality.  Much as you 
>> would expect.
>> Chris
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Canti Sam Hillborne: No Cable Hangers

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We have cable hangers, diff kinds front and rear..it's just (now) one of 
the things you pick. When we included short adjustables, people wanted long 
ones, and vice versa. So now you just get the one you want, you plunk out 
$10 or whatever it is, and everybody happy, unless you think it should be 
included. (We'll trade one for your bottom bracket, ha. And seat post ha 
and headset, and all those rack boss and bottle boss bolts, which so many 
frames don't come with, ha. Ha.)
V vs Canti
They both WORK. V-brakes have a rep for being harder to modulate, but 
modulation is in the hand muscles and brain waves, not the lever. It's like 
saying "power brakes make me skid." You get used to them quick. I used to 
dis V-brakes, but then...man, it's really hard to once you've used them in 
stressy downhills. I like the looks of cantilevers, and I'd go with cantis 
on Sams or 42mm tires or smaller (or thereabouts, it's not a hard line). 
But for fatties, V's. Not hands down, but yes, they'd be my first. And 
they're so easy to ... deal with, in the way that you deal with brakes. 
The new Dia-Compe cantis and the Shimano CX-50, and Paul's are all good, 
too. 

The rear cable hanger absence: It makes sense to HAVE it if you use 
cantilevers, but if you have V-brakes it goes unused, and since Nitto makes 
such great little cable hangers. I think the tiny rear NITTO hangers are 
some of the neatest things NITTO makes. They put so much work into such 
small parts and make them look so good. I'm not winning any of these 
arguments, but they aren't winnable on either side. It's just a style 
thing, and all options are good!

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 7:41:11 AM UTC-7, d2mini wrote:
>
> Just received my SH Canti frame and realized there was no cable hangers 
> included, permanent or otherwise.
> Had to order some for front and back.
> They went through the trouble to weld on the brake mounts... why not a 
> rear cable hanger? Or tossing in some add-ons with included headset and 
> seat post?
> Not a big deal, just kinda curious on that decision.
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell Reader PDF Archives

[Grant @ Rivendell]

THere was a Zero, mailed in December, a warm yellow color and a few pages 
saying something like, "Not sure this will work, but .." It was mailed to 
3,900 Bridgestone Owners Bunch (BOB) members--kind of the precursor to our 
current customer/mailing list. In the last year of Bstone, lots of the fun 
good stuff there was sitting unsold bc bike dealers didn't want it (wool 
jerseys, XO-1's..) and rather than discount it below cost to clear the 
shelves, I suggested we sell it direct to people who did want it. So BOB 
was formed, with a newsletter called the BOB Gazette. It went on for a year 
or so, we sold bike stuff, The Song of Hiawatha, and the last of the 
world's professional grade horsehide baseballs, and other stuff. When 
Bstone announce closing down, I asked for the BOB mailing list, the 3,900, 
as part of my going away package (I'd copied it on a floppy just in 
case...), and boss said Yes, and that's how it went.

On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 6:34:12 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Thanks for your efforts and for Grant for the 40 and 44.
>
> As for the complete bit, Issue 44 has this to start the first paragraph:  
> "When Rivendell Reader 0 was mailed in 1994, ..."  Was that a typo or is 
> there an issue zero?
>
> Tim
>
> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Reed Kennedy  > wrote:
>
>> Grant was kind enough to send me PDFs of Rivendell Readers 40 and 44! Now 
>> the archive is complete:
>> http://notfine.com/rivreader/
>>
>> Please help yourself!
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Reed
>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Banana sax reviews needed. Stuff fall out?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

It''s not for carrying loose gold dust or diamonds, but the Banana sack is 
secure and adaptable to any load. There's a sleeve pocket for a phone, and 
a stiffener opposite that, and you can put skinny jangly things in with the 
stiffener, to secure them. If I have any doubts I just wad up a bandana and 
put it on top and close the sideflap things. I've forgotten to toggle it 
closed and even then, front or rear mount, nothing's fallen out. All that 
said, it's still probably best to say "It's more secure than a general 
pants pocket" and leave it at that!

On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 12:44:53 PM UTC-7, Lum Gim Fong wrote:
>
> Looks like the opening angle and lid are oriented on saddle mounting to 
> where things could fall out unless there is something to stop that that I 
> am not seeing in the rivbike pics.
> The lid doesn't look so precise as to stop allen wrenches or some other 
> small stuff from falling out.
>
> Any reviews and experience? Otherwise looks like an awesome saddle bag! 
> Curious because I might get one!
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Made in Taiwan AHH?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The catalog go into who gonna make what bikes where for how much and how 
good they are. What it doesn't say (on p.4, the page that addresses this) 
got left out not to sneak, but for two other reasons--easy to read bad 
stuff into it, and there wasn't enough space to nuance it so you wouldn't. 
It is that for Homers and Atlantises we have a longer leash/fewer design 
restrictions in Taiwan than we do now in America. As the designs e- or 
de-volve (as we're all free to see it!), we here at RBW find ourselves 
drifting over to the sources that can happily and expertly pull off all the 
dimensions and details, and then deliver frames we can sell for $1,100 or 
so less. 
It's counter-everything you've been reared to believe, that quality and 
value can go up as price goes down, but there you go.

Top tube slopes are always going to be a concern, but as somebody pointed 
out, rather than paint horizontal as THE "classic" or so style, it's better 
to say it was the common style for 32 years beginning 1950. I don't know 
how precise those dates are, but they make the point that historically, top 
tube slopes have been all over the map (protractor?). We're not shooting 
for "the 1890s look" or anything like that. It's more like we're not making 
bikes to conform to an era that was characterized by explosive growth and 
maturation of cycling in America, which copied for good and for bad the 
racing styles of the day. 

Rivendells end up being a mix of tradition and irreverence, which means we 
disappoint those who want us to keep the flame juiced and be the 
Poghliaghis of Walnut Creek; and we're too backwards for the Scatante 
carbon-disc crowd. I don't see our bikes as a compromised combo. They hit a 
good spot, but it has to be a spot that feels good to be hit, and it's not 
one of those for everybody---which isn't to say I don't wish it was or 
don't think it ought to be, just that it can't be. We're lucky to be here, 
recently saved and thankful, and on we go, comrades!



On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 3:26:28 PM UTC-7, Jonathan D. wrote:
>
> Looking through the new brochure it looks like the AHH is going to be also 
> be made in Taiwan. I love the idea and it looks in between sizes with Sam 
> and the AHH will be the 650B Sam and the Atlantis the 650B Joe Appaloosa. 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Frustrated by RBW lack of inventory

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Profligate inventory buying slims up our cushion of safety when an 
unexpected blast hits, and our usual monthly $30,000 to $40,000 inventory 
spending was cut back to $5,000 for the three months leading up to the 
recent near-fall (even here I seemed cheap at that). It still wasn't 
enough, but it made it better. But when the money's not coming in, the only 
thing we can do is keep it from going out, just huddle and say, "we gotta 
sell the stuff on the shelves." 
And in some cases, things we've stocked are getting harder to impossible to 
buy. Our 18-year supplier of Aussie wool things has closed. Our Norweigian 
supplier of wool stocks almost nothing, so for us to get it we have to 
commit to like 6 months of underwear that trickles out. So we're not doing 
much of that anymore
This is no different from any other business, but I absolutely know the 
frustration. I've stocked up on XL knickers, a size way too big, b/c I 
don't see us ever getting in my beloved L's again. I bought two of the blue 
MUSA shirts and one Green, same reason. 
We're still recovering and are being extra carefulbut there are still 
gaps. Not a lot, though. Do we need to stock 10 varieties of bells, to 
indulge the bell-particularists? I think 3 is enough. The focus is on 
duplication elimination now...and stopping trying to stock things we think 
are groovy (or, in some cases "I" think are groovy) that nobody else seems 
to like. 
Here's some stuff going on to maybe look forward to and to end this on an 
upnote: We're slowly ramping up MUSA wool, starting in the Fall, but it's 
still gonna be a matter of get it if u want it when we have it.
More and more it's going to be (as DP...) bikes, bags, essential hardware, 
and of course a smattering of quirky groovy fun essential things that have 
no parallel in the real world but still make sense. Splats-like things.
Anyway, i feel yourzhallzis's pain, and we're doing better now than then, 
so please please please keep giving us a shot...inventory levels are 
excellent right now and have been for a month and should be ongoing...but 
the scope may be smaller.

G



On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 5:01:09 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> OK, so I'm no longer a big bike spender, but I do own three Riv bikes and 
> feel some loyalty to the company.  At 73 all I need are replacement parts. 
>   I haven't ordered anything from RBW in two years because every time I try 
> to put in an order half of what I need is out of stock.  
>
> It's finally Spring in Vt and this week I pulled all the bikes out of the 
> basement, cleaned & tuned them up.  I made a list of the replacement parts 
> I needed, which was really very short - new HB tape and one tire.  Of 
> course I can always use cleaner and lube so added them in, then threw in a 
> chain guard for the Rambouillet.  Went to the RBW site and discovered that 
> the tire I wanted was out of stock, as was the chain guard.  Not much point 
> in putting in an order for HB tape and two items I can buy anywhere
>
> VO has the tire (650b X 38 skin wall) and HB  tape, so once again no sale 
> for RBW.
>
> Michael
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: offRoadini

[Grant @ Rivendell]

wow, that's not what i think of when i think of new jersey. thirty-three 
miles of that. it's such good riding, looks like.

On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 7:35:11 PM UTC-7, lambbo wrote:
>
> The Roadini proves to be very spritely on this quick 33 miles of gravely, 
> flat, NJ Tow-Path.   There were some actual rough patches on either side of 
> Trenton of deep mud or large loose gravel but those were not the 
> appropriate times to be taking photos while riding.   Jack Browns.  Think 
> it's finally set up for it's first 200k.
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1NI8YcIbAJ8ShYW0-7ZBQ2twiof5wzmm8?usp=sharing
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: 300k ride report: Samuel Hillborne still rules

[Grant @ Rivendell]

This is the Nobel Prize of cycling-related compliments. Completely made me 
morn <--say it the way Patrick would...it's the opposite of "made me mourn" 
!) Lucky Bill! 

On Monday, April 9, 2018 at 3:46:38 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Fantastic, Bill! Well done, and a tip a’ me plaid cycling tammy to you! 
>
> With abandon, 
> Patrick

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Grant @ Rivendell]

A lot of the answers to most of the questions might be answered in the 
catalogue coming up in about 3 wks, and I don't want to deflate it before 
it goes to print (in 2 weeks), so... we might not answer all of the 
questions here before then or on BLUG-BLAHG. We're all way loose-lipped in 
person--the stuff just tumbles out of the voice box like mad when it's 
face-to-face for some reason. Also, some reasons or answers are hard to sum 
up in a sentence or two without seeming to reflect some kind of emotion 
that --- well, let me just say the don't always play well in sentences, 
sorry to be so vague with that, and we're careful about what we say and how 
we say anything if it can't be ... arghh, having a hard time with it now. 
It feels like I'm turning it into a puzzle, which isn't my intention. All 
of the changes -- and there aren't THAT many, trust me -- are for good 
reasons, including, from my pov, bike improvements. The Atlantis is still 
Russian green, I can say that.
Thank you all for your support, enthusiasm, patience, knowledge, opinions, 
trust, help...

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Eat Bacon Don't Jog--Goal set, goal met

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Hi everybody on both sides of the fence and sitting on it, too--
I wrote the book but am not trying to push it here. I wrote it because I 
don't LIKE to talk about diet stuff, so it was sort of my one-shot. I'm 
piping up here (violating "one shot"), but it won't be my usual long post. 
To keep it short means being direct, which doesn't always come off well, 
but I'll try for "short and soft," which doesn't sound all that good, 
either.

EBDJ synthesizes a lot of stuff in a few short, to-the-point chapters. 

The introduction is long, and in it I tell my own history with 
diet/exercise--which is bound to be different than yours in some ways, but 
if you're a typical somewhat ageing cyclist who is adding pounds over the 
years despite riding a fair among, you'll be able to relate.

The average "chapter" is about 300 words, and most adults read close to 
that per minute. If you aren't up to the whole book, read at least these 
five numbered entries,which total fewer than 1,700 words and will take you 
about 8 minutes if you dwell some:

83: It's about the architecture of digestive systems in the animal world 
(excludes the internationally known Venus fly trap!)
84: Specifically about human guts
85: What your guts are good and bad at.
91: Diabetes primer. How Type 2 diabetes creeps up on you. This may help 
your family accept a shift in diet.
92: kind of the ABC's of blood sugar testing...a good way to keep an eye on 
diabetes as it creeps up on you

Whether it's "paleo" or "keto" or "primal" or whatever, the shift is away 
from foods that jack up your blood sugar and make you fatter, 
diabetes-prone, and hungry all at the same time. The mainstream media, in 
addressing this while at the same time trying not to bum out its audience, 
tends to take a softer-core stance on carbs than I do (surprise!): Where 
they say, "try to cut back on refined carbohydrates and overly processed 
junk foods and sugary sodas," I have chapters titled, "All corn is candy 
corn," and "The Fruit Ruse," and "The Whole Grain Ruse."

Those titles alone will turn off many, but the message in them all is the 
same. It is to see past a food's commercial image, and see it in terms of 
its sugar load. 

At Rivendell, every birthday gets celebrated with the person's choice of 
restaurants, and we take out for all. The most popular one is Indian. I eat 
the red chicken, I pluck the cauliflower out of the (sp?) alu gobi, and I 
slurry it around in some of the thick lentil mush, which I love. I don't 
eat the nan. Others eat it all, some avoid the chicken. It's not as easy 
when the cook is unaware of your sugarphobia, but if you aren't already 
diabetic, or "pre-diabetic," a slice of cake won't kill you. Two might, but 
not one. Not right there at the table, at least. Ha!

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Frank Jones track end

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The QB and SimpleOne dropouts were water-jet cut in Woodinville, Washington 
according to a drawing we sent them, and they worked well. They have a "no 
funny business" look about them that, without being at all ugly, didn't 
seem a good match with the rest of the stuff on the new FRANK...so BLUE LUG 
and us split the cost of the new mold, and we came up with the new one. The 
function and joint geometry determine the overall shape, the length of the 
slot is within a mm or two of the oldie--and ought to absorb an 8T 
difference, like QB did. Then we went at it to make it look good. It was a 
collaborative effort btw me, a guy named Dan, Roman, and Will (who 
ultimately made the final aesthetic tweak-call). Internally, we call it the 
"alligator dropout." 
On "dropout": Sheldon was steadfast in his not liking track "fork ends" to 
be called dropouts, because the horizontal slot doesn't allow an unchanged 
wheel to, literally, drop OUT of the thing. I do my own honoring of Sheldon 
with his favored (and now mine) "derailer," but to me, "track ends" is in 
the same category as "tyre," "seat pin," "rear mech." Somebody recently 
pointed out to me that my favored "catalogue," with a perfect run for more 
than 28 years, is in the same boat, so -- nothing against the English, but 
I'm back to "catalog."  No biggie, either.

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 9:27:56 AM UTC-8, jandrews_nyc wrote:
>
> Just curious why the original QB/SO track end was redesigned...
> Does anyone know how the new one changes the flexibility of 
> gearing...isn't it still an 8 tooth difference while maintaining brake pad 
> position?
> Maybe it's so they could extend the chain stays?
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: OT: Lennard Zinn documents heart problem

[Grant @ Rivendell]

When society, opinion, fads, latest/greatest, and moralistic issues weigh 
in on diets, there aren't any clear winners. The filter, it seems like, 
ought to be your own digestive system ("chapters" no. 84, 85 in EBDJ). 
People and sometimes their pets are the only animals that don't. 

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 11:07:54 AM UTC-8, dougP wrote:
>
> While many in this group are not into training, racing or other extreme 
> forms of cycling, this article is good information and may serve as a 
> cautionary tale for someone you know:
>
>
> http://www.velonews.com/2018/02/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-no-burning-haywire-heart_456565
>
> This goes back to "too much exercise may not be good for you".  Lennard 
> does an excellent job of explaining a complex subject and relating his own 
> experiences.  I've been down the path of drugs, cardioversion, ablations, 
> pacemaker, different drugs, etc.  While I've never been a trained athlete, 
> nor competed in any serious way, it's entirely possible that years of the 
> "more is better" syndrome was contributory.  
>
> Especially relevant is how he has had to adjust his riding activities to 
> deal with his current reality.  It's a bit long & somewhat technical, but 
> definitely worth the time and attention.
>
> Doug Peterson
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Un-un-racing update: My first ever mountain bike race

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The more extreme the course, the more important it is to level the playing 
field. However, just as a matter of interest, an "exception that proves the 
rule" kind of thing, about 7 years ago our Mark entered a super rugged 
50-mile mtn bike race around (the area of) Lake Tahoe. So--6-7,000 feet, 
lots of climbs and descents, loose shale-y rocks, rugged by any standard. 
They almost didn't let him ride his cyclo-cross bike (with 35mm rear tire, 
38 to 40mm front, no suspension). He raced in the super competitive 50- ? 
category, and if you can't predict the conclusion to 
this...welllconsider the context?
But yes, the exception. Mark is exceptional...and we steer away from racing 
bikes, blah blah...while not steering away from racERS.

On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 7:37:06 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>
> 
> I'm a pretty devout unracer.  One of my un-unracing activities is I'm the 
> volunteer team mechanic for the El Cerrito High School Mountain bike racing 
> team.  Today's team ride was a non-league race.  It was open to the public 
> and the kids urged me to sign up.  So, I did my first ever mountain bike 
> race.  I entered the Sport category, which might have been above my skill 
> level, but whatever.  The weather was perfect down in Fort Ord, Monterrey.  
> It was pretty exciting to be in a real racing environment.  Other fellas in 
> the 45-54 age group tended to gain time on me in the technical turns and 
> such and the descents, but I was pleased at the ground I'd make up on the 
> climbs.  I was not last in the Sport 45-54, but was close. I think the kids 
> all enjoyed that I got after it. Anyway, it was a memorable day on the 
> bike, and it happened to be a day on the bike that demanded hydraulic disc 
> brakes and through-axles and front suspension.  There's no way I could have 
> used a Rivendell, even a hypothetical fantasy Rivendell.  The fact is, 
> there are bikes out there for most tasks.  Sometimes it's fine to just use 
> the right bike for the task and enjoy the ride.
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>  
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Bravo!

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 2:47:50 PM UTC-8, MartyG wrote:
>
>
> Many Super Blue Blood Moons ago, I penned this quaint verse for the now 
> lost and forgotten A. Homer Hilsen website. Kind of apropos to bring it up 
> in this thread, don't you think? 
>
>
>
> *The Resurrection of A. Homer Hilsen*
>
>
> There it was, there it sat.
>
> Bars akimbo, tires flat.
>
>  
>
> Cluster missing, saddle worn. 
>
> Dangling hemp-wrap. Dusty. Torn.
>
>  
>
> Rubbed the down-tube, read the name:
>
> A. Homer Hilsen – of Rivendell fame. 
>
>  
>
> I knelt to worship and wondered why.
>
> Lost, or stolen? Left to die?
>
>  
>
> Who would leave it? Could I? Could You?
>
> I asked around, nobody knew.
>
>  
>
> I felt linked like a chain to its ultimate fate,
>
> the local bike shop was open ‘till eight…
>
>  
>
> They told me the story of a man dressed in wool.
>
> He lived in the country, his glass always half full.
>
>  
>
> The bike was his passion, his comfort, his dream.
>
> Fittings for Mark’s rack, lugs filled with cream.
>
>  
>
> But no one had seen him, at least for a while.
>
> The man had moved on. My lips cracked a small smile. 
>
>  
>
> I asked the police what the policy was.
>
> They showed me the poster: Auction by Fuzz.
>
>  
>
> I showed up quite early, on the day of the deal.
>
> Misty and quiet, the sky painted like steel. 
>
>  
>
> I noticed the Hilsen being eyed by a punk,
>
> mixed in with the lawnmowers, car parts and junk.
>
>  
>
> He grabbed a brake lever and gave it a tug,
>
> Spat on a pedal, then moved on with a shrug.
>
>  
>
> The auction moved slowly, through toilets and tools,
>
> Something for everyone: the dealers, the fools.
>
>  
>
> And then it was up there, wheeled up by a cop.
>
> The pads squealed on the front rim. It came to a stop.
>
> The bidding began with the auctioneers’ pitch:
>
> “A handsome blue bike for the not quite so rich!”
>
>  
>
> It was me and the punk, and a man I could see
>
> who was standing alone near a lone Redwood tree.
>
>  
>
> It had to be mine. I just had to win.
>
> To let Homer go home without me was a sin!  
>
>  
>
> The punk shrugged again when three figures were spoke.
>
> Fished through his pockets, confirmed he was broke.
>
>  
>
> I looked near the tree, heard the faint ping of a bell,
>
> The auctioneer paused, raised the gavel. It fell. 
>
>  
>
> “It’s mine! Can’t believe it!” My grin ear to ear.
>
> I cashed out in seconds, lost a fight with a tear.
>
>  
>
> I wheeled Hilsen homeward and vowed to be kinder.
>
> Put him up on my work stand and loosened the binder.
>
>  
>
> I thought about fate, how I won, how I got’m.
>
> Flipped the frame in the stand to examine the bottom.
>
>  
>
> As soon as the upside was more downside than most,
>
> A small rolled up paper fluttered out from the post:
>
>  
>
> *“I’m happy you own me, the pleasure’s all mine.*
>
> *That punk would’ve stripped me and sold me for wine.”*
>
>  
>
> *“Now we can share them, those days on the road.*
>
> *Losing all count of the friendships we sowed.”*
>
>  
>
> *“You see, I’m attracted to people like you;*
>
> *People who dream of a journey or two.”   *
>
> *  A.H.H.*
>
>  
>
> I’m sure when I’m older, my legs tired of turning,
>
> I’ll think of this day; of the joy and the yearning.
>
>  
>
> I’ll pass it along to a like-minded good soul;
>
> dusty and weathered, but ready to roll.
>
>  
>
> The bike will live on, with new stories to tell;
>
> new owner, new road, and the faint ping of a bell.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Suntour Power Thumb Shifters

[Grant @ Rivendell]

*Reginald Alexis???!*! so nice to hear/see that name again. I hope 
you're well and all the good stuff. 

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 12:35:59 PM UTC-8, R. Alexis wrote:
>
> I have some SunTour XC friction shifters in use on my 1994 Bridgestone 
> MB-1 retro build. They along with a bunch of other parts originally were on 
> my 1986 Mongoose ATB that I ended up warrantying. The shifters were on the 
> replacement 1991 Mongoose IBOC Sport before I changed them out for index 7 
> speed SunTour XC-LTD thumb shifters. 
>
> I really like the shifting of the friction shifters again. I had no issues 
> when I got it built up and rode it. This is after having index shifting 
> rear bikes for a while. I since have gotten a second bike rebuilt using 
> some NOS SunTour Sprint downtube shifters. Had those shifters since before 
> Rivendell finally bought out the stock They are on my 1988 Schwinn Voyageur 
>
> Will more than likely end up with a set of the Silver 2 shifters, even 
> though I have some Suntour XC-Comp ones. 
>
> Reginald "Shifting back to the future" Alexis
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Did you lose your Silver Roadeo?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Rene,
Send me or call in the serial number. We may be able to trace it to that.
Best to send --email, b/c we're outside today unloading a truck. Serial 
number is on the underside of the bb shell. Also, a photo.

Thanks, man!

gr...@rivbike.com


On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 10:22:14 PM UTC-8, René Rivera wrote:
>
> I just picked up a 56 cm Silver Rivendell Roadeo on the street for a very 
> small amount of $. I am suspect it was stolen and am hoping to connect it 
> to it's owner. It has a well worn brooks saddle and grips, full fenders 
> with mudflaps, red soma tires. Does this sounds familiar? I will be off the 
> grid through the holiday weekend but will be able to respond Monday night. 
> If you can prove ownership by giving me the serial number or build details 
> and reimburse me the $100 I paid it is yours.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Riv shipping, a new world record

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Shipped means picked, packed, boxed, labeled, prepared for pickup that day 
at 4pm (in the case of UPS, which is 90 percent). If USPS, it means boxed 
and taken to the post office that day. Everybody here knows the best-run, 
most clocklike department here is shipping. A couple of times a year a guy 
will apply for an "entry level" position here (wants to design bikes in a 
year), and suggests, "I'd even start in the shipping department!". The 
insult isn't intended, but there's no better way to start off (and end!) on 
the wrong foot. 
Thanks to all who like our shippers!
G

On Thursday, January 11, 2018 at 7:51:50 AM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I put in an order at 2am this morning and just got a "shipped!" notice at 
> 730am. That's a turnaround of 5-and-a-1/2 hours and will probably be here 
> tomorrow, which qualifies as one day shipping! 
>
> This raises two questions: What the heck am I doing shopping online at 
> 2am, and who the heck is shipping at RBW at 7?? 樂

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Crankypants & Thoughtful Responses

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Seriously all that John and everybody has said. Jim means the world to me, 
I have more respect for him than I can ever utter, and I know most of us 
here feel some kind of version of that. He can write me under a tractor, 
every sentence, things that I'd stew over and ultimately screw up with 
emotion, he delivers like..pancakes at a fundraising breakfast, that's the 
image I have (and makes sense to me/my head). Yep, thanks, Jim. You pipe up 
perfectly and are so valued.

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 8:52:37 AM UTC-8, Cyclofiend Jim wrote:
>
> The tenets of this group have not changed. It's right there in the top 
> line - "...a respectful, supportive and polite tone in all posts."
>
> I never expected that everyone would agree with everyone else in every 
> post. The world would truly be a much more boring place if that were the 
> case. 
>
> But excessive umbrage and accusations and generally going toe-to-toe in 
> recent threads which should have been innocuous makes me a bit concerned. 
> Hopefully, this was just an early example of the February crankiness that 
> pops up on this list when folks have not gotten out to ride enough. 
>
> There are a few things in those escalating threads which catch my 
> attention. 
>
> One is a statement which described a post as hastily made.  There's not a 
> thing so time-dependent on this group that anyone needs to shoehorn an 
> immediate response between the business of the day. If someone insults you, 
> let it stand. The previous conversational contributions made to this group 
> present enough of a body of evidence as to whether any insult is valid or 
> ludicrous. We all have a sense of the personalities behind the comments, 
> especially if we've been involved in this list for any length of time. The 
> need to respond immediately does not exist here. There are better venues 
> for that. If you find yourself hammering out (or tapping out) (or dictating 
> to a transcription bot) a quick response, maybe you don't need to post it. 
>
> Because words are tough. 
>
> We see it play out time and time again. All we get are the words. No body 
> language or tone. No micro musculature movement on the face to defuse or 
> contextualize the words. An innocuous post taken the wrong way. Something 
> triggers someone and suddenly the conversation is in a death spiral towards 
> "So's yer old man!"
>
> I think we're better than that.
>
> Because we're human, that isn't always the case. 
>
> So, let's give one another the opportunity to be wrong, hold an opinion we 
> don't agree with, miss the point entirely or explore an idea clumsily. If 
> you are the smartest person in the room, let the rest of us catch up 
> occasionally. Pretend it's a group ride where no one gets dropped.
>
> There were also a few things in the threads which heartened me.  
>
> Group members stepped in to diffuse the situation, putting themselves in 
> the line of fire to let everyone sit back down and enjoy the music. Thank 
> you. 
>
> That said, what now?
>
> Will we continue to get teased by the popular social venues into being the 
> first responder? Having an answer rather than considering a thoughtful 
> response? Will this group become a value-added buy/sell/trade sheet? Will 
> we continue to find commonality or seek to contrast only our differences? 
> Will Timmy hang on to the cracking tree branch over the chasm while Lassie 
> finds the ranger? Wait. Sorry. Ignore that last line.
>
> My point, as always, is that the quality of this group is up to us. Let's 
> move forward with a commitment to that idea.
>
> Thanks to everyone for their ongoing contributions to this group. 
>
> - Jim
>
> Jim Edgar / rbw group admin
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Frank Jones Sr details

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Them the machined-after-forging ones, no doubt fine, but the ones coming up 
are the '70s style, just forged. Same reach, but possibly--can't say 
sure--some modern hardware tweaks. 

On Sunday, December 17, 2017 at 3:09:43 PM UTC-8, Belopsky wrote:
>
> Lets talk these brakes Grant mentioned - "new Dia-Compe Mod. 610 
> centerpull"
>
> Don't these already exist?
> http://www.diacompe.com.tw/product/gc610/
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Frank Jones, latest Knothole post

[Grant @ Rivendell]

You can ride fixed, but since there's no coasting you have to be careful 
about clipping pedals. With a 75 drop (track bikes have 60, commonly) and a 
wider-than track cranky (presumably) there's more risk. That is hugely 
abated by the larger tires--which more than makes up for the increased 
drop. But as a maker - designer, I am always concerned about somebody 
putting on a high Q factor crank, 700x22;s, wide pedals, and pedaling while 
leaning over speed bumps. Then that person crashes, blames us, we get sued, 
party's over.

If all that makes sense and you still wanna ride fixed, it'll be a better 
fixie ride than a normal fixie bke, I'm pretty sure!

53cm has 54.4 top tube, by memory. I don't want to re-look it up now. 
Friend's on his way, we're going out to play. (And I hope my dissing of the 
importance of the length of a top tube without regarding the other 
variables that affect how much you have to bend and reach... is legendary!)


On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 2:28:34 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Queries: 
> it’s for single-speed freewheels, not fixed gear bikes. 
>
> But with long (and slanted!) track ends, why not fixed? What am I missing?
>
> 6 or 8 tooth accommodation; that's enough to give you quite a range, from 
> 16 t to 21 t easily; with a 42 t ring, 72" to 55", 16 t one one side, 17/20 
> or 21 t cogs on the other.
>
> the top tubes for the 48.5, 51.5 53, 55, 57, and 59 are 53.5, 54.4, 56.2, 
> 57.5, and 58.
>
> There seems to be a tt length missing: can anyone supply it?
>
> It sounds very nice and I am tempted, but ... but... shouldn't ... 
> shouldn't ...
>
> But wouldn't it be nice with some light wheels and a pair of Barlow Pass 
> extralights?
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, New Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique
> **
> **
> *Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?*
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Frank Jones Sr details

[Grant @ Rivendell]

There's new info there, but no full drawings. The chainstays are long 
enough to easily accept a 38 tire moving back and forth, and probably with 
a  fender if you can finagle it (it's possible, as long as you don't insist 
on supreme "fender lines" throughout the range). The seat- and head tube 
angles are what anybody who knows our bikes has come to expect--shallow 
seat, moderate head---and the fork rakes balance to the head tube angles 
for handling the way we like it. The drop, the same as on Roadinis. 
Tailored to road use, not steeply banked tracks. Two bottle bosses, eight 
dropout eyelets, midfork and high rack mounts, split cable stops at 11:00 
so you can shoulder it cyclo-cross style and bound up the train station 
stairs. We overthought it in a typical way, as both a matter of pride and 
reputation, and to avoid shame and angry customers. I think at least by now 
there's more tech-numbers on the FJS (with an availability quotient of less 
than 30) than you'll find on most bikes made by the tens of thousands. 
And...the neat thing is—it's Rivendellish people who know and care enough 
to ask! 

On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 1:55:20 PM UTC-8, tc wrote:
>
> Don't bother calling Riv ... I talked to Harry today -- he had no 
> additional details except the frame will be $1500 including frame, fork, 
> headset, seat post.  They're "too busy" to get the geometry numbers...those 
> will supposedly be available on the site Monday or Tuesday.  
>
> On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 11:16:34 AM UTC-5, dougP wrote:
>>
>> I'm surprised a new thread hasn't already started on this:
>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Grant @ Rivendell]

My eye-opening into the possibilities of uprights, and swept-back ones at 
that, came when I first talked to Freddie Hoffman, who rode 50,000 miles a 
year all thru the eighties on sweptback uprights (sbu?). A similar 
eye-opening came 21 years ago, when a customer who lives in Toronto, Jim 
Skinner, got a custom early on, and mentioned that he rode 10,000 miles a 
year in Birkenstocks--after years of normal cycling shoes.   It still comes 
down to different strokes--that's always the final word on anything like 
this. I can say with a huge degree of certainty that thousands of our 
customers have rediscovered riding's fun again after switching to SBU, but 
those are riders who weren't digging the drops. As long as the drops are in 
the right vertical spot, they'll be fine--they'll just be a curvy ram's 
horn bar in the right place for you. Most people who walk and run 
ergonomically correct erect and even sit tall  find a more upright pedaling 
position comfortable, but others like a lean. Bikes are so neat because you 
can customize your own. 

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 7:23:46 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without 
> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on 
> drops. 
>
>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the 
> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was 
> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops. 
> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with 
> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>
> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to 
> endure while upright.
>
> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut 
> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought 
> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>
> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>
> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Silver Shifter 2 project revived

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Sentence 3 should be "..we CAN'T afford to do everything."

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 9:37:12 AM UTC-8, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> All is well here with the SS2 thing. We're not oblivious to double-digit 
> speed cassettes and the 1xwhatevers, and aren't even dismissive of them. We 
> can afford to address everything and we can't afford to do most of what we 
> do that makes us good or special. Nothing we do makes sense financially, 
> and at some point when I'm gone or RIV's gone and somebody sees an 
> opportunity to write the story of our demise, they'll have tons of 
> low-hanging fruit to pluck. MUSA, SACKVILLE, STEEL. THere are all kinds of 
> external forces threatening us that we can't control. A huge rent raise in 
> a few years? NITTO bars on Amazon at our cost? A young and irreplaceable 
> workforce hoping to settle down in life and pressured to make more money in 
> another field? 
> Those are everyday pressures, not always front-burner, but always not far 
> from it, and so there's only so little I can fret about somebody 
> double-after-the-facting saying we should do the SS2 this way or that. 
> The S1 groove diameter is 20.5. Campy NR was 16. Simplex Alfred E. 
> Neumanns were 14. Dia-Compe makes an 11-speed that's 30, but it won't fit 
> into a pod or thumb-mount, and it pulls a lot of cable way fast, which has 
> its own drawbacks when you're shifting 9. The amount of lever-tip movement 
> required to move the derailer X depends on the length of the lever. It's 
> not obvious unless mentioning it forces you to thing of the physics, or 
> until you mount one and try it, but it's there. 
> We experiment a lot with shifters, modifying one mount to fit another 
> shifter, putting them different places, trying out with diff 
> cassettes...and we do it as users-riders, not as marketers. The SS project 
> started out a dumb lark in the early 2000s, and has been tremendously 
> successful. Not financially, but from the point of view that lots of riders 
> have been given the chance to learn friction shifting, and if no SILVER, no 
> chance. That's not important in the big picture, but to me, personally, it 
> is huge. I'm really proud of it, not in an outward chest-thump way or a 
> smug way, but in an inward way. Friction shifting (or, more accurately, 
> shifting with a micro power-ratchet that is better than pure friction, but 
> is so similar to it, and "friction" flows off the tongue better) isn't 
> every going to come out of its flatlining and make a blip, but at some 
> level below the visible blip, it's pretty fantastic. When you move the 
> lever and pull the cable and make that not-guaranteed shift, in a tiny way 
> you're resisting the powerful forces of modern times that tell you you're 
> smarter when you remove skill and feel from the bike riding experience. You 
> WILL miss some shifts and go KLUNK now and then. Your wingnut will loosen 
> and you'll have to snug it. There's no "auto-snug" feature to do it for 
> you, and so the bike fantastically nags at you and reminds you that you and 
> it are dancing or interacting and are interdependent. That's not the force 
> and direction that flies in the mainstream. 
> When SS2 comes out--March, if I can believe what I'm told—it won't be news 
> in any bike magazine (maybe our never having written a press release isn't 
> helping us). But on the other hand, can you imagine a 26-year old rookie 
> former intern journalist getting a press release about that shifter and 
> knowing what to do with it? Or getting a sample for test purposes?
> We survive because of our current and repeat customers, and this forum has 
> been key. For me, it's super important, because even when there's swatting 
> and squawking, it's about stuff I can relate to and love, and it's among 
> geeky bike riders (like I am!) who feel strongly about insignificant stuff 
> (like I do!). Everybody here knows all of your names. Igor, Steve, Patrick, 
> Joe, the Deacon, many more. We know your quirks and sensitivities. Yay to 
> all!
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Silver Shifter 2 project revived

[Grant @ Rivendell]

All is well here with the SS2 thing. We're not oblivious to double-digit 
speed cassettes and the 1xwhatevers, and aren't even dismissive of them. We 
can afford to address everything and we can't afford to do most of what we 
do that makes us good or special. Nothing we do makes sense financially, 
and at some point when I'm gone or RIV's gone and somebody sees an 
opportunity to write the story of our demise, they'll have tons of 
low-hanging fruit to pluck. MUSA, SACKVILLE, STEEL. THere are all kinds of 
external forces threatening us that we can't control. A huge rent raise in 
a few years? NITTO bars on Amazon at our cost? A young and irreplaceable 
workforce hoping to settle down in life and pressured to make more money in 
another field? 
Those are everyday pressures, not always front-burner, but always not far 
from it, and so there's only so little I can fret about somebody 
double-after-the-facting saying we should do the SS2 this way or that. 
The S1 groove diameter is 20.5. Campy NR was 16. Simplex Alfred E. Neumanns 
were 14. Dia-Compe makes an 11-speed that's 30, but it won't fit into a pod 
or thumb-mount, and it pulls a lot of cable way fast, which has its own 
drawbacks when you're shifting 9. The amount of lever-tip movement required 
to move the derailer X depends on the length of the lever. It's not obvious 
unless mentioning it forces you to thing of the physics, or until you mount 
one and try it, but it's there. 
We experiment a lot with shifters, modifying one mount to fit another 
shifter, putting them different places, trying out with diff 
cassettes...and we do it as users-riders, not as marketers. The SS project 
started out a dumb lark in the early 2000s, and has been tremendously 
successful. Not financially, but from the point of view that lots of riders 
have been given the chance to learn friction shifting, and if no SILVER, no 
chance. That's not important in the big picture, but to me, personally, it 
is huge. I'm really proud of it, not in an outward chest-thump way or a 
smug way, but in an inward way. Friction shifting (or, more accurately, 
shifting with a micro power-ratchet that is better than pure friction, but 
is so similar to it, and "friction" flows off the tongue better) isn't 
every going to come out of its flatlining and make a blip, but at some 
level below the visible blip, it's pretty fantastic. When you move the 
lever and pull the cable and make that not-guaranteed shift, in a tiny way 
you're resisting the powerful forces of modern times that tell you you're 
smarter when you remove skill and feel from the bike riding experience. You 
WILL miss some shifts and go KLUNK now and then. Your wingnut will loosen 
and you'll have to snug it. There's no "auto-snug" feature to do it for 
you, and so the bike fantastically nags at you and reminds you that you and 
it are dancing or interacting and are interdependent. That's not the force 
and direction that flies in the mainstream. 
When SS2 comes out--March, if I can believe what I'm told—it won't be news 
in any bike magazine (maybe our never having written a press release isn't 
helping us). But on the other hand, can you imagine a 26-year old rookie 
former intern journalist getting a press release about that shifter and 
knowing what to do with it? Or getting a sample for test purposes?
We survive because of our current and repeat customers, and this forum has 
been key. For me, it's super important, because even when there's swatting 
and squawking, it's about stuff I can relate to and love, and it's among 
geeky bike riders (like I am!) who feel strongly about insignificant stuff 
(like I do!). Everybody here knows all of your names. Igor, Steve, Patrick, 
Joe, the Deacon, many more. We know your quirks and sensitivities. Yay to 
all!

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Rivendell on the C Forum

[Grant @ Rivendell]

This is the drag of being me and I hate it. I get to fear that my hating it 
will reinforce the poster or give a loger life to it, start a discussion. I 
know some have it worse and tere are bigger problems in the world, but the 
idea that I can or should just slugh it off doesn't reconcile with who I 
am, so..arghh.

On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:16:29 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> Andy
>
> +1, but there are some folks there who do the 'trash" talk,  and I just do 
> not need to hear 'bad apples".
> ar that my hating it will reinforce te o
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
> On Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 1:46:56 AM UTC-4, Andy Beichler wrote:
>
>> I frequent both places.  I like what I learn there and here.  
>>
>>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: FS Rivendell Silver Shifters

[Grant @ Rivendell]

the current shifter mold is dying (I'm told), and we were working on a new 
one. that project seemed permanently stalled--I'd given up, as anybody  
here'd tell you--but there is now some hope.  it'll  be a new shape & mold.

On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 5:44:30 AM UTC-7, Philip Kim wrote:
>
> Bought a ton of these when Riv said they would no longer be in stock, but 
> that seems to have changed.
>
> New in box silver shifters.
>
> $45 shipped.
>
> pic:
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128095434@N02/37333146914/in/dateposted-public/
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Alex DM 24 Rims

[Grant @ Rivendell]

xcuse my funky typing in last one. babying a $#%@! typing injury and trying 
a new technique..

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 5:53:34 AM UTC-7, Doug H. wrote:
>
> I was just looking over the specs for the new Clem H and noticed they are 
> using Alex DM 24 rims. According to the Alex website these are E-Bike rims. 
> It made me wonder what makes a rim an E-Bike rim? Is it just marketing or 
> is there something in the design that makes it more suitable for an E-bike?
>
> BTW, looking forward to the arrival of the Clem.
> Doug
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Alex DM 24 Rims

[Grant @ Rivendell]

alex made it before the emotorbike went big. it is nearly identical 
(dimensionally) to the early '80s mtb rims, and at 32mm xternal wide, it is 
ideal for holding 45mm to 60mm tires, even at low pressure. The sidewalls 
are also appropriate for allaround rogh use and all-weather braking.  the 
eBike tag probably came because RIV is the only maker digging this cool rim 
for fat tires, so they figure "let's cllmit an eBike rim". 
But eBikes get discs 99.99 percenta the time. it is what it is, and if 
you're riding fat tires and you want max reliabilty and good tire holding, 
the DM24 is (my op.) the best rim out there. Not so say there aren't other 
goodrims.

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 5:53:34 AM UTC-7, Doug H. wrote:
>
> I was just looking over the specs for the new Clem H and noticed they are 
> using Alex DM 24 rims. According to the Alex website these are E-Bike rims. 
> It made me wonder what makes a rim an E-Bike rim? Is it just marketing or 
> is there something in the design that makes it more suitable for an E-bike?
>
> BTW, looking forward to the arrival of the Clem.
> Doug
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Who's ridden a Steamroller and can compare to the Quickbeam?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

In about 6 wks, by about Dec 10, we'll have 20 total/6 sizes UP TO 59cm of 
the Frank Jones Sr, a singlespeed frame designed for Blue Lug, our Tokyo 
dealer. We made 20 extras for us. 
• seat lug (new socket style, but made for 3-deg upslope) and head lugs 
(custom style)
• fillet-braed bb
• 28.6mm min triangle tubes (seat and top tbes usually are, but for FRANK, 
the downtube is, too).
• clears 38mm tire. clears 33.333 w/fender  (as long as feners are not 
aluminum)
• 120 rear spacing, new rear dropouts---track style...two eyes for rak & 
fendr. No der tab. Angle like Quickbeam's, long, too.
* brake reach is 59mm (necessary for 38mm tire). Brake options? Tektro 559, 
Paul or Compass centerpull, or new Dia-Compe 610 centerpull (not out yet)
• stay & fork rack mounts

Sizes and QTY we're getting:
53cm (7)
55cm (5)
57cm (6)
59cm (7)

The frames are designed to be comfortable fits with drop bars, but it's 
more of a classic fit than a RIVFIT 2017.8. In our experience, any drop-bar 
bike can take an Albatross bar easily,,,so FRANK can, too.

Sizing by PBH:
Mark's PBH is 82 and he'd ride a 53. Mine's 85 and I'm getting a 59 that I 
wish was a 58.

This is a paved-road, light-load singlespeed frame, not a "Manny bike" ! 
More info will follow. It's going to cost about $1,400 for 
frame-fork-hs-seat post (27.2)

G



On Friday, October 20, 2017 at 5:11:17 AM UTC-7, Eric Daume wrote:
>
> If you're looking at QB alternatives, the Cross Check is a better fit 
> (wider tires fit, canti brakes, lots of braze ons).
>
> You could also look at the Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross. It's like a 
> CC, but a bit lighter tubing, more stack, less reach. I've had both a CC 
> and a BMC MC, both fine bikes.
>
> Eric
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:33 PM, tc  
> wrote:
>
>> I'm getting the single speed itch.  Quickbeam's (62ish) are so hard to 
>> find.  Looking at some awfully nice custom Steamroller builds (e.g., Blue 
>> Lug).  Would be interested in hearing any comparisons from those who've 
>> ridden both.  Thanks!
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Wrecked my Atlantis

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Hey John,

Echo all the sympathies etc from the great emo support and good advice 
group here. Here's what Riv can add--

We have an unofficial non-policy of mimizing the financial fixit or 
replacement pain for hard-luck cases, accidents. Let me repeat the 
unofficial part. We do it often as we hear and are able to.

Thought on repair: almost always an option on a lugged steel bike, but most 
practical when you're on tour in the Seychelles. Seven or so times a year 
Riv riders wreck their bikes and want to know whether they're wrecked enuf 
to hav to fix. Our public answer is always super prudent---yes if it's a 
bent dropout, No if it's a bent fork, Yes if only one tube is wrinkled or 
minorly buckled but nit enuf to steepen the head tube angle; No if top AND 
down tube are buckled badly. Replacing both tubes often means rplacing the 
head tube too, and the whole shebang -- with new fancy paint--can cost 
$1,400. 

If WF built the frame, they'll beat those prices. Coordinate with us, ship 
to them and deal with them as directly as possible, and the price will be 
close to half what it is elsewhere--plus shipping, of course. They don't 
offer the same for toyo-built frames.

Alternatively, we can offer (always unofficially) a sympathy price on a new 
frame. You send us the old one you box, your freight), and you get a new 
one cheap--whether it's the same model, an equivalent (Appaloosa, in this 
case), or another unequalent model--like a Roadeo, Clem, whatever.  The 
point is, we understand your sitution and unofficiially try to help make it 
better. When our inventory is good, it's easier.

This IS unofficial, but we'e done it several times in the past, when the 
stars are aligned, the customer is a typical nice-fantastic Riv-liker, and 
we're in a good mood and things don't get complicated by third-party input, 
friends or relatives or bikeshops speaking for you, and so on! 

Grant


On Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 4:30:11 PM UTC-7, John G. wrote:
>
> Yesterday, at 5:30 in the morning, I collided head-on with another 
> cyclist. I was on a path along the Hudson river on the Jersey side, and the 
> guy had no lights.  And I went over the bars. 
>
>  Thankfully, I'm all right, but my Atlantis is pretty messed up,  and I'd 
> like to get the lists advice . The fork is badly bent, and my local shop 
> thinks that the Head tube maybe messed up. They're stripping  it down and 
> sending it to Bilenky to see if it can be realigned. Do any of you think 
> that's a bad move?
>
>  I don't want to think about how much worse it would've been if I had been 
> riding a carbon bike.  I'm pretty bummed. The worst part is that the other 
> guy swore at me and threw my water bottle at me while I was lying on the 
> ground.  Called me some names I won't repeat here, and rode off before I 
> was even able to get up.   Sometimes I really hate riding around here.
>
> Anyway, be safe out there and hug your Rivendells tonight!
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Silver Tubing Info

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We have both HT and non-Heat Treated SILVER tubing...and one of my BLAHG 
posts within the last 5 weeks had an explanation. On the Taiwan frames we 
use non-HT tubes, which are better (for reasons explained in the post). For 
the American frames we use HT, because there's a belief (that I don't buy) 
that HT is better, and if we use nonHT on frames that cost $2K+, some 
people will say, "Aha!" for the wrong reason. Our Taiwan frames are tested 
rigorously, vigorously, to tough standards and they pass. When tested TO 
DESTRUCTION, they don't fail because of insufficiently strong tubing.

UTS (Ultimate Tensile Strength) is the "glory score" of bike frame tubing, 
but oddly so, because it literally, actually, is a measure of the force 
required to pull the material apart in tug-o-war...and that is not how bike 
frame tubes are stressed. But it correlates with other forces that ARE 
imposed on ridden bike frames...but the correlation isn't perfect and is 
misleading...as the BLAHG  post stated. I am not in proper 
mental/emotional/wrist pain from typing state right now to dig in and find 
that post, but ... it's out there, and what I've said here is the short 
version. All good fun things to discuss!


On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 1:01:21 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a link to the RBW Silver Tubing sticker which gives the 
> mechanical properties of the tubing.  I seem to recall 110 ksi UTS.  I 
> looked on the RBW site and searched but came up empty.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Roadini Sizes

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Maybe it's been made clear, but the brief history is that we ordered the 
62, 58, 55, 51, 48 and they came measured that way to the point on the seat 
lug. We overlooked this, and it turns out the normal measuring way was 1cm 
less. A cm is nothing when it's part of a 6-deg upsloping top tube, 
extended head lug, tall hs stack, and long-quill stem...so rather than redo 
the drawings, we just said OK to the new sizes.

Threaded and threadless: Both work-obviously. We generally go threaded 
because they allow quill stems, which make up and down adjustments easily 
and -- there's way more range than there is with a chopped threadless stem. 
When adjusted properly, they'll stay adjusted for years--maybe until the 
headset wears out. I have not readjusted a threaded headset in 20 years. If 
it is a recurring thing, there are ways to prevent it, but that's tributary 
that will lead to more and more. Threadless is cool in its threadless way, 
and is extremely clever...but so's threaded.

On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 6:30:43 AM UTC-7, Jay Connolly wrote:
>
> I'm not going to buy one, but does anybody understand what the Roadini 
> frame sizes actually are? One of the pics on the site says it's of a 63. 
> Earlier--months ago--the bike was described as coming in a 62. I believe 
> the brochure refers to the dimensions of 61. I'm not going to buy one. Just 
> wondering. In recent communications, I believe it says that the frames came 
> in one cm different than originally stated. Does this mean that the 
> original 62 came in as a 63 or as a 61? I'm just trying to clarify so that 
> others have clear information. I'm not going to buy one. I don't need it. 
> Especially the grey one--that's the one I really don't need.
>
> Jay
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Discs versus calipers

[Grant @ Rivendell]

There must be some fork bounciness, but it's hard to isolate the effects of 
forks, tires, wheels, weight distribution, and front-center dimensions when 
you're riding over bumps. Also, there's the tremendous but usually 
neglected in "technical discussions" effects of rider-joint-springs. It's 
been my experience (so, I believe) that the rider and the tire are the two 
most important shock absorbers. I believe that so much that it seems almost 
insulting to even state it. If yoiur position allows relaxed arms (not 
under compression from too-low bars), then they'll soak up tons. If the 
tires are fat enough and soft enough, they'll soak up lots more. If your 
wheels are more ahead and behind you than beneath you, the bumps won't 
affect you as much. But mostly, joints and tires. To look for cush in steel 
forks...it's like looking for protein in broccoli when there's fried cow 
right there next to it.
A suspension fork can add an extra measure of shock soakup, but by its 
presence can also lead to less effective joint use, or harder tires, or 
worse technique. It may not, but it can. 
At some point it's useful to pan back and ask how heinous an enemy a bump 
is, and what kind of artillary's needed to tame it.In a race, the more 
stuff you have, the faster you'll go. Not in a race, you have the fantastic 
luxury of slowing down and navigating btw the bumps at a speed that allows 
them to be a fun but not threatening part. 
I don't have everything all figured out for the world, I just know what my 
preferences are, and I'm not dumb enough to think everybody's like me or 
should be...or like Rivendell. Plus, there's so much variety out there, and 
it's fun to try it. From a totally purely RBW business tactical approach--- 
which never kicks in entirely without being diluted by emotion and gut and 
laughs—all I can say  is that it's unlikely we'll put shocks or disc brakes 
on single bikes. Imagine the fear it would trigger at Specialized, Trek, 
and Giant if we did! (That is a joke). 
The bike industry is suffering these years, and the biggies feel it most. 
Naturally they will grab any opportunity to grow or strengthen and not 
appear behind the times. If one of the three does something, the others 
will, too. Rivendell's not at that point. We have a few super fun things 
coming up in the next year or so, but they aren't conventional innovations 
or tech makeovers. (Our form of "innovation" is something like the 
welded-in lifter handle.) Last night, Mark, Roman, Will, and I talked for 
20 minutes mostly after hours about moving things on the Cheviot 3mm on one 
size, four on another, to make a difference that nobody will ever notice 
except maybe Mark. We do tiny things!

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 1:17:14 PM UTC-7, Jesse wrote:
>
> I've heard a handful of folks on either the iBOB or 650b groups say their 
> Riv forks are too stout for their liking. Makes me wonder how much 
> compliance a full blown low trail Jeff Lyon fork or somesuch has compared 
> to the average Riv. 
>
> No experience w/ disc, but I'm guessing running fat tires tubeless @ low 
> PSI compensates a bit for the overbuilt nature of disc forks. 
>
> I remember Matt Chester talking about why he preferred rim brakes.. 
> something to the effect of disc use stressing the frame. Pretty sure Grant 
> mentions this issue as well. Have always wondered if this is just a 
> convenient data point for folks in the rim brake camp, or if it's a serious 
> thing that would cause frame issues down the road.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Big Ol' Mixte Update

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The old song updated and fantasticized, Martin! Good work.

The low horizontal tube makes it a "Laddie Lifter,"a term we've used 
--along 'lady lifter," depending--many times around here. Gotta love a 
Laddie Lifter. I also triangulates the BB area, reducing flex/fatigue 
there. Even without it, the frame won't break, but the LLTube locks it in. 
It's strategically (intelligently, not dumbly) placed to allow a front 
derailer. Related to "derailer"--I've adopted the Sheldon spelling for so 
long now, it's automatique! I'm a Sheldon admirereur. But back to the LL..

On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 1:34:28 PM UTC-7, MartyG wrote:
>
> If men riding mixtes is wrong, I don't wanna be right. Will sent an email 
> update today. Sample is in the house. It gets better and better:
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Freddie Hoffman has ridden more than 1.5 million miles with an 
upright-swept back handlebar. In the '80s he averated 50,000 miles per 
year. We've covered him in the RR, he's been written up here and there...it 
can be done.

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 9:16:50 AM UTC-7, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Opinions on saddlebags? Swift vs. Carradice vs. Sackville

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The "bad blood" is that the guy who used to own and started Frost River 
stole our designs and said they were his...and that was after many generous 
and helpful-in-money ways gestures on our part to help his business get 
started and stay afloat. It was a bummer, but he was desperate, and I 
understand the force of desperation.  The current FR owners knew nothing of 
that and--I just saw them once at an outdoor trade show--and they were 
willing to undo or do anything I wanted to make it right, and when they 
made that clear, I didn't care anymore, they can use our designs, and I 
hope they do well. 
There are lots of good bags out there. The Sackvilles are on Pluto, as good 
as anything we offer and emblematic of all we try to do. I dare anybody to 
hate them!

On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 2:36:11 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> I'm partial to waxed canvas and love Sackville. But I switched to Frost 
> Rivers bag because it plays better with bikepacking with my tent, sleeping 
> bag and pad on the rear rack because it goes sideways. Love the large side 
> pockets too. Only downside so far is I had to add the draw chord to 
> tighten/loosen the draw flaps that weather proof the bag beneath the top 
> flap. Ought to come with that. 
> https://www.frostriver.com/shop/bike-bags/gunflint-trail-seat-bag/ I'm 
> not sure but I think the design is Grant's Baggins design and there was bad 
> blood there somehow, but whatever happened, the bag is great.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick 
>
> On Saturday, April 8, 2017 at 3:12:12 PM UTC-6, Max Bergen wrote:
>>
>> I'm in the market for a new saddlebag and would enjoy reading some of 
>> your opinions. Has anyone used/currently uses any of these saddlebags? If 
>> so, I'd enjoy reading about what you like and dislike. Thanks! 
>>
>> - Swift Zeitgeist (either size) 
>> - Sackville Saddlebag (medium)
>> - Carradice Barley or Nelson
>>
>> Cheers, 
>> Max
>> San Diego
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: book of possible interest to Rivendell riders

[Grant @ Rivendell]

I'm no fountain pen fanatic, but I know two who are, and they're also bike 
and camera people, so I know it must be dangerous. I have a Waterman 
something-or-other that my mother-in-law gave to me several years ago, and 
since then I've bought three Lamy pens, which are cheap enough--$35 to $45, 
depending on plastic or aluminum--to be sold on those. I may be verifiably 
technically wrong on this next point (and maybe somebody's already said 
it-- I don't know if Lamy pens are a big deal here or not, but I read 
Patrick's mention, so jumped in)--yes, but the thing about fountain pens is 
they seem to have a wider range of writable angles than ball-points, and 
write better at low angles than gel pens. For the unimportant record, I 
love all stationery stuffsand it's been decades since I've bought a pen 
or pencil out of need, but I buy lots of them and use them, because they're 
all so fun, and it's nice to think of businesses dedicated to these 
soon-to-be ancient tools.  I sign about 30 books a month (before they get 
stocked), and I discovered the low-angle abilities of fountain pens that 
way. But then I blow on the ink to make it dry faster. There is that...

Grant "gimme a Lamy & I'm happy" Petersen

On Saturday, April 1, 2017 at 6:21:57 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Addison: speaking of fountain pens. I'm certainly no collector, but I like 
> fountain pens because they're the only writing instrument that allows me to 
> write clearly (sort of; my handwriting is very bad) without my hand 
> cramping, or else, without the point sliding all over the paper. The 
> "glide" and the resistance are in just the right mix.
>
> But my experience, except for brief ownership of a Parker 51 which my 
> daughter dropped nib first on a tile floor, has been with cheap fountain 
> pens.
>
> This is what I have: 
> https://www.amazon.com/Lamy-Safari-Fountain-Pen-Charcoal/dp/B0002T401Y/ref=zg_bs_1085704_4/160-5052302-7745938?_encoding=UTF8=1=G7K36TEM9SN2BXAFK1JN
>
> In my limited experience, this writes very well. But in the cheap category 
> (say, under $100,) can I do better? How will a cheap but better pen write 
> compared to this? And if I have to pay more than $100 to get noticeably 
> superior writing qualities, how much more?
>
> Thanks, Patrick
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 8:35 PM, Addison Wilhite  > wrote:
>
>> Just thought I'd chime in on the book.  I also just picked it up and have 
>> only just finished the vinyl section.  I'm also an audiophile migrating 
>> back towards vinyl and really enjoying the tactile experience and the 
>> different way I listen to music.
>>
>> I am hoping the book digs deeper into some of the reasons why as humans 
>> we tend to find these analog experiences more rewarding.  I've also 
>> recently been bitten by the fountain pen bug which in some ways is more 
>> dangerous than a bike obsession.  Easy to keep many more pens than find 
>> space for a bike.  Plus, for $200 you can get a really nice pen.  But I've 
>> spent much more on both a modern Montblanc and a vintage Waterman flex pen.
>>
>> Anyway...the book so far is definitely one to check out.
>>
>>
>>
>> Addison Wilhite, M.A. 
>>
>> Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 
>>  
>>
>> *“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*
>>
>> Educator: Professional Portfolio 
>>
>> Blogger: Reno Rambler  
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 9:21 PM, Glen  
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 5:51:57 PM UTC-6, Ray Varella wrote:

 I'd like to add another thought to this discussion, it has to do with 
 public radio vs mainstream corporate media. 
 snip

 The sterility of a streaming digital service will never rival that sort 
 of listening experience. 



>>> I encourage you to explore the world of streamed public radio. Whether 
>>> through iTunes, the NPR app or however you can, there is a vast world of 
>>> fantastic commercial free music available today. No it isn't tube amp warm 
>>> but the jazz from your Bay Area or WWOZ is fantastic and the Americana from 
>>> WNCW or WFPK makes my Friday nights and Sunday afternoons.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to 

[RBW] Re: Grant coached Bike Snob on today's blog post

[Grant @ Rivendell]

BSNYC *was* much-needed and still is. Humor is subjective, but heck--he's 
pretty funny. He cusses, but in the big picture and certainly now, that's a 
small deal--and this from somebody who didn't swear once until he was 19, 
and then only because I trout I'd been working on all evening took the fly 
and I missed the strike. The last time I was in NY (2 months ago, when my 
publisher formally rejected my new book!) I walked around the park in 
snowflakes with Eben and -- I already knew him -- but a "walking talk" is a 
good way to know somebody, better than email or bike-riding talks, even. 
There is a private Eben and a public one. They're both funny, but the 
private one talks about family, his children, history and the history of 
NYC, and the topic of goofy bikes doesn't come up, and he's generally mild. 
I like both Ebens.

On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 11:13:03 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Bob B disagreed with me and Bob K stated that he's with Patrick and Bob B
>
> I think the two Bobs might have misunderstood my post.  I think Eben Weiss 
> is a very talented writer, is very funny, and I think BSNYC is a great 
> blog.  In my post, I was poking fun at those OTHER people who claim to 
> dislike Bike Snob.  In my experience, those people who say they don't like 
> Bike Snob claim to never read Bike Snob, and also claim that he is never 
> funny.  How can they know he is never funny if they never read him?  
>
> I read Bike Snob every once in a while, find him funny most of the time, 
> and I think the world is a better place with BSNYC in it.  
>
> BL in EC
>
> On Monday, March 27, 2017 at 6:03:07 PM UTC-7, Bob K. wrote:
>>
>> I'm with Patrick and Bob B. here. I think the Snob's hilarious and read 
>> the blog daily. Today's post got a few chuckles out of me. Luckily I didn't 
>> have a class at the time or my students would've given me strange 
>> looks--even more so than usual.
>>
>> Bob K. in Baltimore
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Small Appaloosas going away

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Tubes are the same starting length, just cut shorter for smaller bikes--so 
that's not it. We can still do the tiny American bikes, but "doing them" 
amounts to keeping the possibilities open, which is fine and easy, but 
we'll get zero to one orders for 47 Atlantis per year...and even so, 
Wford's tooling won't allow longer than 48.5 chainstays...which, I know I 
know, seems monstrously long for a small bike, but as I rage and rant on in 
that BLUG post, it's not as long as it ought to be for a small bike. 
Smaller bikes ride better with longer stays. I'd say most-to-all bikes do, 
but the difference really flares up on a small bike. It makes it ride 
normal..

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 6:31:51 AM UTC-8, Roger wrote:
>
> For models built in batches the logic is clear, but Ive wondered about 
> this,for small and large Atlantis, Hillborne, or other frames built on 
> individual order, not batches, what  about being small or large would make 
> them be discontinued? Are there different tubes or lugs that would need to 
>  be held in inventory just for those sizes?

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

I had to check out the red to see. Red seems to be new--like, the 650B 
Hunqa sizes and the 65 Atlantis. That's another Venn diagram overlap 
functional problem. If we had room and money we could have bikes in stock 
all the time, all sizes and models -- kind of like what Surly's like, I 
imagine--or any other big bike company. Our way is to break ourselves and 
risk a lot on one run of bikes/frames after another, and hope for the best. 
It's probably good for the models, because we don't commit to things we're 
not fully behind, but it's bad in other ways---

On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 2:27:17 PM UTC-8, dougP wrote:
>
> Grant:
>
> While you're fielding questions, what is the significance of frame sizes 
> listed in red on the new geo charts?  I realize they are new, but does this 
> indicate they will be the only ones offered in the future, with the black 
> ones as historical references?
>
> Doug Peterson
>
> On Sunday, March 5, 2017 at 1:24:58 PM UTC-8, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>>
>> On the tube top question---
>>
>> There is "on paper" length and "anatomical effect." On paper the Joe Ap 
>> is longer, but that means you ride a 9 instead of an 11 stem. And the 
>> higher bars possible with the Appa bring back them back toward you more and 
>> at the same time have a lengthening effect on your arms (see "Vitruvian 
>> man"). Finally — well, I actually kinda doubt that, but it's all fun anyway 
>> — the original Atlantis midsise small wheel was 26, and the Appa's is 650B, 
>> and when we came out with Atlantis, 35mm to 38mm tires were common on it, 
>> and now--the combo of 650+fatter in general, raises the requirement for 
>> longer front centers. As I like to say, "these things get ultramajorly 
>> thoughten about before they show up in steel!" 
>> But also yes, there has been an emotional and an actual shift away from 
>> locking into drops on a touring bike. Touring and generally useful bikes 
>> aren't anymore the poor kin of racing road bikes, and with so many good 
>> non-drop bar shapes out there, it's not necessary (tho still not stupid) to 
>> ride drops. Freedom from drops means freedom to design around the other 
>> good bars with grip areas for the most part behind the stem clamp, not in 
>> front of it, as on a drop. When you throw that into the pot, there's room 
>> to increase the bike's front wheelbase a bit, too, and adding a cm or even 
>> 3m to the tt  is a good way to do that.If we had to make only one bike, 
>> it'd be the Appa--no question, for me. But for better or worse we have 
>> about 6 models. Wait till you see the Roadini. I think any of the latest 
>> Rosco Roadish bikes with tons of clearance and cantilever ride as well as 
>> any road bike and have tons of clearance, but we've wanted to do a cheaper 
>> version of the Roadeo for a while, and we're gonna do that this Spring or 
>> Summer. Sidepulls, 130 rear wheel, all the road stuff.
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

On the tube top question---

There is "on paper" length and "anatomical effect." On paper the Joe Ap is 
longer, but that means you ride a 9 instead of an 11 stem. And the higher 
bars possible with the Appa bring back them back toward you more and at the 
same time have a lengthening effect on your arms (see "Vitruvian man"). 
Finally — well, I actually kinda doubt that, but it's all fun anyway — the 
original Atlantis midsise small wheel was 26, and the Appa's is 650B, and 
when we came out with Atlantis, 35mm to 38mm tires were common on it, and 
now--the combo of 650+fatter in general, raises the requirement for longer 
front centers. As I like to say, "these things get ultramajorly thoughten 
about before they show up in steel!" 
But also yes, there has been an emotional and an actual shift away from 
locking into drops on a touring bike. Touring and generally useful bikes 
aren't anymore the poor kin of racing road bikes, and with so many good 
non-drop bar shapes out there, it's not necessary (tho still not stupid) to 
ride drops. Freedom from drops means freedom to design around the other 
good bars with grip areas for the most part behind the stem clamp, not in 
front of it, as on a drop. When you throw that into the pot, there's room 
to increase the bike's front wheelbase a bit, too, and adding a cm or even 
3m to the tt  is a good way to do that.If we had to make only one bike, 
it'd be the Appa--no question, for me. But for better or worse we have 
about 6 models. Wait till you see the Roadini. I think any of the latest 
Rosco Roadish bikes with tons of clearance and cantilever ride as well as 
any road bike and have tons of clearance, but we've wanted to do a cheaper 
version of the Roadeo for a while, and we're gonna do that this Spring or 
Summer. Sidepulls, 130 rear wheel, all the road stuff.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Atlantis now redundant?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The Atlantis won't go away forever and never for long and maybe not at all, 
and redundancy has been our calling card and anchor all along...because 
Rivendell bikes are all good for more than one thing. How is a good commute 
bike different than a good touring bike? You might have historical highbrow 
imagery of "classical touring bikes," but the bikes have the same 
requirements--strong wheels, a place to put a tent or milk, good handling 
with a load, and a comfortable position. You're more likely to pedal four 
hours (works both ways) on a tour than shopping, but isn't it then funny 
that most shopping bikes are more comfortable than most "classic" touring 
bikes, which tend to look better than they feel? 

There couldn't be more two overlapped bikes than the Atlantis and 
Appaloosa--as, like, platforms and performance and feel and all. Our 
direction has shifted only slightly, world-record slightly, in our history. 
The bars have come up a hair and the chainstays are inching longer and 
there's less reverence for the past and certain associations with 
properness and style than there used to be. I (personally, as opposed to 
all of RBW) have grown more haywire and feel less apart of the main bike 
industry than ever before, because (I think) I am I'm slightly suffering 
from being on a private high horse when it comes to questioning the motives 
of why this or that is happening, and not liking the answers. The bike 
MARKET is super crowded, and it leads to dozens of categoris and abberants 
and variety...and on one hand it's cool that bikes really can travel 
motorlessly over more terrain--that's one of the good things, although I'm 
not talking about eFat bikes penetrating the wilderness when i say 
"good"--but it also leads to overspecialization with too many categories, 
and then new riders go shopping and ask for bikes by category and not by 
this is how I'm gonna use it.

Am I off track here? What am I even addressing? Oh--Atlantis and Appaloosa. 
If the Appaloosa had Atlantis decals it wouldn't seem like a different 
bike. Longer stays is the big difference. There's not a quality difference, 
and they both ride well. The comparisons are inevitable and so I tried to 
address them, but the existence of the Appa doesn't make the Atlantis less 
or obsolete. Redundant for sure, but we have a lot of redundancy in our 
line. It's better than having less of it and a bunch of good-for-one-thing 
bikes, right?


On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 8:07:18 PM UTC-8, Reid wrote:
>
> Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make 
> the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the 
> Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the 
> Atlantis?
>
> Reid
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Grant's Other Book

[Grant @ Rivendell]

I think the whole dedication read (according to memory, even tho I have a 
copy in the next room): To BF Skinner ... the most misunderstood person of 
all time...and Bob Dylan...it's the least I can do and the only thing I can 
think of. My thinking was that most people "learn" about skinner not by 
actually reading his work, but by reading criticisms and misinterpretations 
of it--written by famous or respected othersand Bob Dylan was my 
musical company from early on (age 14), when I felt out of touch with the 
music and fashions around me, and then here he comes with all this 
substantive stuff. Enough?

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 5:21:57 PM UTC-8, Chris Lampe 2 wrote:
>
> B.F. Skinner?   Interesting.
>
>
>
> On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 5:01:14 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
>>
>> To All: 
>>
>> If anybody is interested in reading Grant's 1984 book on cycling routes 
>> in the Bay Area, send me a few bucks for postage and I'll mail it to you. 
>> You can mail it back to me when you're done or it can circulate. All I ask 
>> is that it eventually return to me. 
>>
>> Fun fact: Grant dedicated the book to B.F.Skinner and … Bob Dylan. The 
>> latter, of course, went on to become the muse for Rivelo in Portland OR. 
>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Sometimes the maker requires a minimum retail price--for a small variety of 
good or at least well-intended reasons. VP-001 was one of those, but it's 
not the only one, for sure. If (for example) the Min Sell Price (MSP) of X 
is $80 and a seller complies because compliance is generally good when you 
want to get along with vendors and don't see the relationship as a battle 
with winners and losers. When somebody else violates the price thing, and 
maybe even sells X for below cost, some buyers will see that as a chance 
for irresistible victory, and naturally and for good reasons, will want to 
share the love with others. This is the free market, and the chips fall, 
etc. Nobody's arguing against a free market or anything.



On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 1:29:09 PM UTC-8, Glen wrote:
>
> Steep and Cheap has VP-001 and Vice along with some others on sale right 
> now.
>
> $33 for the 001s and $30 for the Vices
>
> There was a discussion about the Shimano A530s on here a while ago, they 
> are on sale too.
>
> www.steepandcheap.com 
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: RIVEOPARDY

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Clue should've been high carb / low carB--not "car". And it's a bar we 
don't sell anymore. Dove bar. Meat (if a real dove), and ice cream / 
chocolate confection for the high carb.

Buckwheat was SOBA bar.

I'll try to post the key--need roman's help converting excel file to JPEG. 
Internet was helpful for non-mac, but I'm on mac. I'm sure it's easy, but 
I've had it with trying, so I'll get Roman to show me.

sorry for the missing B!

G


>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: RIVEOPARDY

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Years ago there was a Noodle-shaped exactly handobar with a bulge, not a 
sleeve in the middle, and it weighed like 60g less, so we called it a 
superlight Noodle bar, and it WAS a noodle by bend, and we named it after a 
Japanese (since it is made by NITTO) buckwheat noodle. Not Udon, which is 
wheat..but the brownish skinny brothy soup slurpy noodle...which I tried to 
live on in my early years of non-low carb eating on my trips to Japan. That 
was the -opardy answer that stumped the most.

I've asked others here to come up with theirs--bike related or not--and 
Dave is working on a toughy now. Too tough. Like Genuine Jeopardy tough. 
It'll go up early next week.


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: HubbaHubbah HubbaHubbah HubbaHubbah HubbaHubbah HubbaHubbah

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The HHH crank PLAN is for 44x34x24 with 38T timing rings, and only the 44 
aluminum---because small rings wear faster and timing rings--not sure if 
the straight chainpath reduces wear enough to compensate for the aluminum 
so we just went with steel. The cost diff was not a factor--we save a 
dollar per ring by going to steel, but if you think THAT was enough to be 
factor, then you have no been following our decades of financial flub-ups 
and profligate ways. 

Also IN THE PLAN, are chainring guards, at least for the timing side. I 
don't remember whether we requested them for the triple part..

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Pneu bars...time for MUSA?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Nobody's to blame because--of a lot of things, but there aren't any bad 
guys here--there's a Blagh post about it, and it's true. Nobody's any bit 
shady and everybody's friends. It's just a tiny situation that we're using 
as an excuse to make a pnewbar that will be ours a thousand percent. 
Another part of this involves, as sounds and concepts with definitions, 
"disingenuosity" and "originality" and "honesty with the world" — not to 
make it into an intellectual deal when it doesn't need to be that. I can 
explain that all without being master of the explanation or goofing off, 
it's simple.
I know that Rivendell has had an influence, and you can't HAVE an influence 
without immediately being somewhat copied and spread around by distant 
friends of former first cousins and colleagues. It would be 
weird/inconsistent/greedy/disingenuous to believe in upright bars and 
comfort and baskets and thinking hey friends give it a shot...and then 
funking out when they do, and either the original bits and pieces or a near 
miss version of them shows up here or there and got there through somebody 
else. RBW has to survive (well, it's a goal), but not at the cost of that 
kind of grumbling. When I recognize something that we pushed along and it's 
on a bike in a cheap alley, I swear it's a thrill. A RIV'd-out crummy, I 
mean, or an improved/made-over anybike.

Originality is impossible, so what we do is modify or refine existing 
designs, whether modern or more than a century old. From riding bikes 
constantly and not overthinking but letting the prize thoughts surface, 
some things change. Handlebars of a hundred years ago had a higher batting 
average than today's bars, and -- in my opinion -- some of the bars we're 
working on and have done are where they need to be to be fantastically 
supremio--but there will always be dissenters. There are honest dissenters 
with different points of view, and there are dissenters on principle, who 
automatically don't like popular things that work well. Anyway, it's hard 
to be original, but we try to refine things in a good direction.

There is nobody in the world who can make bars like NITTO. In the the early 
summer of 1994 before it was settled that NITTO would be making handlebars 
for RBW (which wasn't a business yet, I was still at Bstone)--I wanted to 
secure the shape, so I sent it to the one US handlebar maker at the time. 
Scott, maybe, but I don't remember. I do remember talking on the telephone 
to the engineer guy, and he had the bar right there (I'd sent him the 
drawing and a sample), and he asked, into the mouthpiece but directed in 
awe at the air and not me, "How do they get that curve? It's impossible to 
do it that well." 

NITTO has made impossibly beautiful handlebars since the McCarthy years, 
during the time of the Beats and hippies and moon landing, and it's 
unlikely there's an American tube bender who can do that or is willing to. 
There are some amazing CNC bending machines now, though. If you supply them 
with the data, they can copy it. Then it becomes a matter of how INTO it 
they are, and where you'll (or we'd) be on their customer list. We matter 
to NITTO, and we're loyal to NITTO because of it. Bicycles matter to NITTO, 
more than they'd matter to a CNC tube bender business in SoCal or Ohio. 
Good business means sticking *with* until there's a good reason not to, and 
bad business is constant price-shopping everything because you're really 
ashamed of selling toy transportation and you have to elevate your station 
in your head by making it about numbers.  We're messing around with rax, 
too! Hooboyoboy!

This is a great group. All of the comments. I wish we could have a big food 
and bike party. The BLAGH is not a sign of me retiring. It's just because 
sometimes somebody else posts a BLUG that warrants starying up for a few 
days, and that's sometimes a bottleneck for me. I had, at one time, six 
posts behind the bottleneck, and they were becoming irrelevant and aged, so 
I blanked them out and got the BLAGH. I haven't given up on the BLUG, but 
the BLAGH is where I feel comfortable being looser, because it's just me 
and I don't have to worry about embarrassing the others.


On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 12:45:21 PM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Maybe it is time for proprietary MUSA bars to avoid Amazon, et. al. 
> undercutting sales?
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: 650b vs 700c

[Grant @ Rivendell]

There is a lot going on with tire sizes, but it's so much, and is such a 
combination of obvious simplicity and actual and made up complication and 
opionion, that the only way to talk about it, the only way I could, would 
-- well, it requires being able to type three overlapping words at a time, 
or say the same out loud. If you do one word at a time (like this), it 
takes you down an off-course tributary, and then it's hard to get back on 
course, and it all sounds insane. It's not just tire sizes and volume and 
weight, suppleness, diameter. It goes to the frame and standover, and 
doesn't even stop there. It really is a three-dimensional issue that 
doesn't play well in 2D language, unless you're really good at it, but so 
far nobody is. It's not complicated in practical use and riding...it's gets 
that way and weird only when trying to explain it. There's no magic to 
anything. I have nothing figured out or under wraps, but I also don't 
question or wonder about anything having to do with this. It's not a topic 
to avoid or to harp on, and there's no answer-answere. Successful bikes can 
have all kinds of wheel sizes. The line graph has no bumps or potholes, and 
for every benefit in one way there's a corresponding and proportional 
drawback in another. They're all so subtle that they go unnoticed while 
you're just having a good time on the bike. You can make a case for a 
monster 700C wheel on a short-wheelbase frame being master of both 
singletrack hairpins and bumps, but to do that requires ignoring everything 
except those two things, and inflating in your head the theoretical plusses 
to the point where they seem to be real. I have nothing figured out, but I 
know what I like and what works for most..until the overthinking gremlins 
come. This is a general blahb...not a response to any particular comment, 
just my visceral response to a topic I used to feel differently about, but 
not that much. 

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 10:20:15 AM UTC-8, dstein wrote:
>
> 650b tires seemed to gain in popularity because you could fit wider tires 
> than 700c (with 700c being traditionally narrow in size both in the tire 
> clearance of frames made and the tires availabile), but now that wider 
> tires have gained in popularity in all sizes, including 700c, what are the 
> drawbacks to going 700c instead of 650b if you can easily and readily get 
> wide 42mm or larger tires on a lot of the new fangled gravel and allroad 
> bikes? Is there a tradeoff for making a 700c frame around large tires?  Or 
> has frame building come around enough to compensate for any trade offs? 
>
> I say this because I've tried a few 650 bikes but constantly find myself 
> gravitating towards 700c with wide tires. I understand from some of Grant's 
> writing that for smaller riders like myself 650b is a better design choice 
> and that's why there are several sizes within a model depending on the 
> size, so maybe it comes down to trade offs with geometry and rider height? 
> Even then, as a small 5'7" rider I still find I prefer wide 700c tires over 
> 650b. Or is it really just a matter of personal preference at this point?
>
> Was just skimming Jan's 'How Wide is Too Wide' article in the recent BQ 
> which got me thinking as they tested multiple widths and diameters, but 
> didn't really say how the wider tires on different diamaters came into play 
> (unless I missed it).
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: MUSA? Completely gone? Coming back?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 10:46:16 AM UTC-8, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> I just referred someone to MUSA shorts on another forum - now I can't find 
> even knickers on Rivbike?  
> What's us?  
>

MUSA may be the longest-running flop in the RBW micro-empire. As anybody 
who knows me knows, I am never not wearing MUSA bottoms of some kind. My 
favorite (and I think DPatrick's favorite) are the knickers. I'm less 
fashionable than most (excess bagginess doesn't bother me, but any 
restriction does). My wife won't let me wear MUSA bottoms of any kind to 
any event that involves cloth napkins or a piano, and in this family 
there's a lot of those.   Plus, as I get reminded of frequently even on 
this fantastic list, there are all sorts of cheaper alternatives. The 
recommendations come up in the form of turning our  cyberpals onto bargains 
we've found elsewhere. It's true that our $90 flannel shirts seem like a 
bad deal compared to Bean's $45 flannels. Pants are the same.
I never expected "MUSA" to be a huge draw, but I underestimated its 
appealor the cost-realities of making and selling commodities in the 
USA.

I like the long knickers because they can double as pants, so you don't 
have to be the guy walking the aisles of TJ's getting odd glances from the 
ladies. I adjust the elastic so they're loose extended, but in half a 
second I can pull them up above the calf and pedal a greasy chainring all 
clear. Probably that's why DP likes them, too! But in the past, it has 
taken us two years to sell forty of them, and it doesn't work.

By Dec 15 we'll get in about 80 of the "new-improved" MUSA pants, probably 
our last run of them. They're 2-inches shorter, no zip, no lower cinch 
velcro, no reflective stripe in back, a more relaxed elastic in the waist 
(but the same fit). We'll see how they go. They'll be gray with blue meshy 
pockets (if that fabric ever came in), and there was a decent reason for 
every change, but every time you change X to X.5, somebody wants the 
original X, and the default perception is that X.5 is a cheapening, even 
when it was an attempt to improve. 

I DIG the MUSA stuff. Halfmitts were perfect on yesterday's ride! Splats 
are miles ahead of the next best raincovers for shoes! But overall, MUSA 
has been a 14-year flop. I am glad to have my personal stash of MUSA 
knickers and pants and shorts that'll last the next 20 years...but I really 
want some of the new pants, too. This is not a tricky psychological attempt 
to drum up MUSA pants sales when they come in. It's just the way MUSA has 
gone around here, and anybody here will vouch for me. Thank you to all 
who've bought something!
G

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: 25 years now

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Ted wrote me a super nice and encouraging note either  in '94 winter after 
Bstone announced its closing or early '95, in the first weeks of 
RBW---complimenting the XO-1 among other things, and it started a 25-year 
friendship. It was the first time I was aware of  a stranger from faraway 
(Wisconsin) had actually understood the bike, and it fired off a synapse 
that would've been dormant otherwise. But 25 years ago--since Andy 
mentioned the InterBike show--I'll tell about my experience there. I'll 
keep it short.
It was a huge event for me because it was the first showing of not just the 
XO-1, but also the '91 catalogue, which was a million miles different than 
all the other catalogues there. It had no photographs, it had seemingly 
irrelevant articles, and didn't put forth a progressive image. It was 
designed and made almost entirely in secret, even inside Bstone. It came 
out exactly as I wanted it. I found the design team via a tip from 
VeloNew's Felix McGowan. He told me to go to the DeFrancis Studio in Boston 
for the character work--they could do anything I wanted. Inside Bstone it 
was me and Ariadne Scott. She kept everybody on schedule and was so nice, 
so everybody who worked on it (the paper supplier, the printer, 
photographers who shot the bikes to be illustrated, and George Retseck, the 
illustrator) loved working with us. I picked authors and wrote myself 
and...it always stupefied me why there was so little internal curiosity, 
but I think it was  more a combination of everybody was busy with their 
job, and people trusted me to come up with something decent.

At the show, the XO-1 flopped, because dealers couldn't understand it. 
Maybe not Andy, but most. I can't tell you how many times I was asked 
"...but what KIND of bike is it? A mountain bike, a hybrid, a road bike?' 
Looking back, I should have called it the Platypus, but that might have 
doomed it more. Anyway, those "category" questions made a huge impression 
on me. I couldn't understand how bike dealers, supposedly bike people, 
could look at a bike close up and be confused as to its potential, with the 
midsized slick tires and the funny handlebars, but they were, and said they 
couldn't sell such an undefined bike.

I was marketing director, so I should have made it easier, but I just 
couldn't imagine that a bike person could look at it and not get it (as Ted 
did!)

The catalogue got mixed reviews--about 50-50 at best. One big dealer-- E.B. 
were his initials, and he was a bigshot then and for many years after--- 
told me directly (to his credit!) that in 20+ years in the bike industry, 
it was the worst catalogue he'd ever seen. It had no effect on me other 
than befuddlement and resolve. My seeming stubbornness today came mostly 
from those two incidents in '91, and in a more positive way, from Ted's 
early support and the encouragement of so many others along the way (and 
the existence of this list, and Jim for starting it, and so many of you)

It's starting to sound like a retirement send-off speech, or a surveying 
the kingdom speech, but neither is close or even appropriate. We're here, 
but it has always abeen a struggle, and we have a few big stressy projects 
and plans all the time. Anyway--dat's it.

On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 7:23:48 PM UTC-8, RonaTD wrote:
>
> Please indulge me a little reminiscence. Riding home from work tonight on 
> on my Cheviot, I passed by the bike shop where, almost 25 years ago to the 
> day, I was handed The 1992 Bridgestone Bicycle Catalog. After about 30 
> seconds of looking at pages 36&37, I handed over my credit card and changed 
> the course of my life. The XO-1 was exactly what I was looking for, as if 
> Grant Petersen had said, "So, Ted, what can we build for you?" Twenty-five 
> years and a reasonable number of bikes later, I am ever more grateful for 
> Grant's contributions to beautiful, common-sense bicycle design and 
> components. 
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee, WI USA
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: 40-ish mm Tires on Thinner Rims?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The ISO (int'l standards org) has crystal clear recommendations for inner 
rim width and tire width, but they're not regulations. A couple of years 
ago I posted them in some form somewhere--and we had an internal talk about 
them--and all of us here and tons of you there have had the brake-opening 
experience and the soft-tire mushy-around-corner experience with a narrow 
rim, but that kind of Technical Whinery never sticks. Sheldon's 
chart--thanks for posting it, Patrick--looks pretty close to the ISO 
numbers, and it wouldn't surprise anybody if that's where he got 'em. 
The SILVER/Techtro 559 brakes were designed to address the wider opening 
solution to a 35mm tire on a skinny rim. We specified that and the reach 
and arm shape---and they're much better for it. It would be neat if all 
sidepulls had something like that, but these days in the go-fast community, 
"wide" is 28mm, so there's no need.
The ATLAS rim at 25.4 outer and I forget inner, but it holds up to a 45 
pretty well--although it would violate ISO recommendations at that. The 
Velocity Cliff hanger is nice at 30mm outside. (I dig that it's the inside 
that matters for tire holding, and the outside for brake  opening, but I 
can't break out of my outer-only numbers.)
The Alex DM 24 rim, at 31.7 or 32mm, is great for 45 to 60 tires. Big 
difference in holding. Best big tire non super fatty rim out there, but 
hard to get in 650B/584. We haven on new CLEMS because we paid for the 
tooling to make them. If you read the John Black BLUG post, you might 
wonder where "tooling costs" become a factor, when it wasn't for 
Velocity--it's just a matter of where to cut the straight extrusion before 
rolling it into a hoop. But at ALEX, there must  have been something else 
going on, because we paid a few thousand for it...and now "own" the 
machinery that allows them to roll the 32mm rim into 650B rims. Blah blah 
blah...sorry 'bout that, but I like this rim-width kind of talk, too.

On Monday, November 28, 2016 at 10:32:11 PM UTC-8, Eric Karnes wrote:
>
> Hi all-
>
> Wanted to get your thoughts...
>
> I have a set of OpenPro rims on which I comfortably run 35mm tires on my 
> Hilsen. I'd like to go up to the max knobbies that the bike can run (I'm 
> leaning toward 40mm Clements MSOs). Have people had success running tires 
> this wide on OpenPros or would it be more prudent to invest in a new set of 
> rims?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Eric
>
> ps. If anyone has a spare set of 40-ish mm knobbies you are looking to 
> part with, lemme know!
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: An un-obstructive front handle bar bag for boscos?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The $30-or-so Wald basket with support struts might not mesh in with one's 
sense of asthetics, but as a cheap fantastic way to carry a decent front 
load, it is hard to beat. Strapping a standalone basked (Wald MED) onto a 
suitable standalone rack, then or not adding a Shopsack MED with or without 
the net is also hard to beat. 
We are developing another new one or two front racks specifically for a MED 
WALD basket. They'll be versatile platforms for other loads too, but ideal 
for the MEDWALD, but they'll be a while.
For BOSCO bars (or CHOCO), it's seriously difficult to fault the function 
of the $30 Wald strutted basket. 

On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 9:35:04 AM UTC-8, anniebikes wrote:
>
> I own a Clementine and after going on my first tour, I am looking for a 
> front handle bar bag that doesn't obstruct my grip in the forward 
> alternative hand position. I don't have a front rack (illusive search 
> because of my prerequisites - another discussion). I tried to make two 
> different hook and loop bags work, attaching each in various positions, but 
> the experiment didn't work out well - each bag swung, got in the way of my 
> hands, or rubbed against the paint on the head tube. I am coming up short 
> with Internet searches. The boscos bars seem to be a different animal! 
>
> I have a solution, however I wanted to ask the group if there is such a 
> handle bar bag available that might suit my needs, something's that easy to 
> detach but doesn't require a front rack. I am ready to sew and retrofit a 
> slim "tech" style bag that I picked up at Staples, which seems adequate for 
> holding passport, camera, phone, etc. I would mount it vertically beside 
> the stem which should allow ample hand space. 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: clem smith L and ibert babyseat

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We got an iBert to test out about 8 years ago, and found the same thing. 
I've seen a few around, always rigid-forward arms trying to reach the flat 
bars. The iBert seems to need a superlong TT (CLEM has) and Bosco-style 
bars. Not sure it'll mount on CLEM-L. As I remember it, it needed a top 
tube, but research would verify that. It's otherwise a neat green seat from 
Utah.

On Wednesday, November 16, 2016 at 8:21:17 AM UTC-8, Sky Coulter wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I bought an ibert seat for baby bike rides over short distances. I mounted 
> it on my romulus and found I didn't have enough space left over on the top 
> tube to dismount safely.  I think I might have enough room on my bombadil, 
> but the standover leaves nothing to the imagination and I worry about being 
> unstable on the bike while getting the baby on and off.  So last night I 
> was thinking about possibly buying a clem smith L model as a baby transport 
> bike. 
>
> Ideally, I'd really like it if the one bike could work for both my wife 
> and I for going for rides with the baby.  My saddle height is 78cm; my 
> wife's is 66cm.  So by the clem smith brochure, the 52cm clem smith L 
> should be able to accommodate both those saddle heights. Although I do 
> worry about the reach to the bars - whether it'll be too far for my wife, 
> whether it'll be too short for me.So I'm hoping the group wisdom can 
> offer some advice.
>
> Has anyone tried an ibert front child seat on a clem smith L bike?  Good 
> times?
> And has anyone with a 66cm or 78cm saddle height tried riding the 52cm 
> clem smith L? how was the fit?  I'd really like it if I can just adjust 
> saddle height between riders and have it fit both of us. And if it'll be a 
> poor fit, better a poor fit for me than my wife.
>
> Thanks for your conveyed opinions, thoughts, and experiences.
>
> Sky in new west 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: blug notes

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Thanks for reading it--that's it, as intended, 100 percent, Eamon. As the 
world gets more crowded, there's a need for more tolerance.
There's an out of print book (it's Amazon-usedbookable) called The Human 
Zoo, written by Desmond Morris. His take on what goes on in a crowded world 
that doesn't go on in an uncrowded one is pretty interesting.

On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 8:29:20 PM UTC-8, Eamon Nordquist wrote:
>
> I cannot fathom anyone disagreeing with any part of that. Those are not 
> Republican or Democratic beliefs in my mind, just good human ones.
>
> Eamon
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] New BLUG post! Frank Jones Sr

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The only lug that doesn't allow angle-versatility is the CLEM lug, which is 
why we got the curvy seat stays--so we could make the chainsays the length 
we wanted. The upper seat stay socket is cast into the lug, so isn't 
variable. But structurally, it is SUPER.
The lug and seat stay cap combo below (two pieces--the lug; the "sta-cap") 
allows a million degrees of rotation, so there's no limit to the angle. It 
has a neo-funqui look to it that I am warming up to because I see the 
structural advantages and some building possibilities, but right now, for 
me and for anybody who's gotten used to a normal side-of-lug attachment, 
it's TAKES some getting used to. It requires the same amount of brazing as 
a normal connection. Shown is the external cap, but there will be an 
internal one, too--Fancy and Plain. 
I promise to St. Peter that if this style was around in 1931 or whatever, 
most subsequent bikes would have been made with it, but it's kind of odd 
that it's coming out in 2017, when, if you were to ask the next pro-clad 
bike rider you see "What's a seat lug?" he'd give you a three-letter, 
one-syllabel, palindromic answer!

On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 7:27:50 AM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote:
>
> I'm wondering about this, at the bottom of the BLUG post:
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
> So, are the seat stay caps separate from the rest of the lug, then brazed 
> into the sockets on the back of the seat lug?  If so, that could be a good 
> way to build bikes of differing geometries with a single seat lug casting.
>
> The specific stay exit angle of the seat lug is what caused the Clem's 
> bendy seat stays; the desired lug didn't offer the correct stay angle to 
> match the lng chainstays.
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Richard Rios  > wrote:
>
>> Looks like a rad project. Blug says it will be drop bar compatable so I'm 
>> guessing tt length should be reasonable. Wonder if it will be TiG or lugs 
>> though?
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Nitto M151F bar story behind it on all those riv builds lately?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We like them because they have a flattish ramp and a the only good looking 
ana-bend ever. I THINK the consensus here is that a Noodle still wins (my 
vote, but that's to be expected, I'm sure)...but we don't automatically 
dislike handlebars we didn't design! It's a nice bar. The reach is super 
short for a drop bar (the Noddle has a normal reach--numbers are probably 
like 80/92---sorry to jargonize here--it just means there's less fwd bend. 
That's either slightly good or slightly bad---it's not a winnable contest 
either way--. The bar is not heat treated, and so it's not as strong, and 
I'll f ind out about the alloy. I don't generally like to engage in 
scuttlebutt, but I believe all the heat-treated NITTO alum bars are made of 
2014 alloy aluminum, heat-treatd to T6; and the non-HT noodles are 5056 
aluminum, and my s-butt factor here is rising, but I think these are a mere 
6061-non HT. I'll find out and report back.
We also like them because they're so cheap. 
Don't ride them off road and probably don't use them if you're an 
economizing burly brute, but for regular old Cinelli-style road use, sure.

G


On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 4:24:35 PM UTC-7, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> Was wondering what the story is behind the use of them on the rivbuilds 
> I'm seeing online now.
> I wonder if they're planning on selling them and adding them to their 
> selection? Also wonder what they think about those bars?

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: Silver 2 shifters

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The Pantaloon screwhead was...not serious. I'd never even heard about it 
until I googled "unusual screw heads" or something like that. D-ring and 
slot, and the slot is sized for a dime.

On Sunday, October 23, 2016 at 6:08:28 AM UTC-7, Dave Johnston wrote:
>
> Pentelope? Does that mean I can't tighten without a special tool if it 
> loosens on the road? That would be a bad idea. Cyclists have been 
> using the slot and D-ring for decades with no major confusion. 
>
> -Dave 
>
> On 10/23/16, Grant Petersen  wrote: 
> > This is an early version of the tightener screw. I'm not sure I like the 
> > options it provides--rather confusing. The current one has a pentalobe 
> head 
> > (google it until we get the newer version up there). 
> > 
> > On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Lungimsam  > wrote: 
> > 
> >> I hope they keep the D rings. So convenient for on the bike 
> tightening!! 
> >> No screwdriver necessary!!! 
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
> >> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 
> >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ 
> >> topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vvqZUhQdaoM/unsubscribe. 
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
> >> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com . 
> >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
> . 
> >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. 
> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
> >> 
> > 
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
> > Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 
> > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit 
> > 
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vvqZUhQdaoM/unsubscribe. 
>
> > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com . 
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
> . 
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. 
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
> > 
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Silver 2 shifters

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Shifter pos: The "fwd" pos works better, doesn't put the lever too high in 
the "up" pos. It puts it farther away in the D-pos, but still easily in 
reach.
The lack of metal washer: Ideally it would be oil-stuffed bronze, but that 
would've been an underappreciated black-hole money-sucker. I've said 
going-on googolplex times that the current blackish (as opposed to dark 
taupish) washers don't crack—or, haven't yet in 4-years. I hope nobody 
takes that as a challenge. But what I said in the catalogue about 'em still 
stands: They're fine, and if anybody is heck-bent on metal, it's easy to 
DUI with hardware-store litsy-bitsies. This was described in an old RR and 
describing it again would seem to convey that there's a need where there 
ain't.
I don't mean to invoke the oft-used-as-excuse "perfection is the enemy of 
good" -- but in this case, the relentless pursuit of a metal washer in that 
shape--or the redesign of that part of the shifter so as not to need it -- 
would have been, as they also say, "the straw that broke the camel's back." 
This was one heck of a project in terms of time and money and stress, 
andhail, Plastic!


On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 3:37:57 AM UTC-7, Garth wrote:
>
> For Grant, I do wonder why the position of the new shifter is not like the 
> original, as in directly over the bar instead of well forward of it ?  I 
> was so happy to see the shape of the shifter being like he original that I 
> overloked the mount puts the actual shifter well forward of the bar I, just 
> like the Pauls thumb shifter mounts and alike.  I missing something as to 
> why the shifter needs to be extended and not on top of the clamp  ?   Help 
> me understand this , as for the life of me when I see this design being 
> presented and continued(pauls, vo,ird) I gotta wonder, "what on earth are 
> they thinking ?" 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Silver 2 shifters

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Short answer is: New washers seem fine. Longer answer is below.

THey're still not breakproof, but they're a different plastic than the 
early ones, and none of these has broken. I've got a bristly take on those 
washers, probably not a popular one, but here it is--

Plastic (of some sort) is an ideal material for a spacer/washer for this 
use. The old cruddy plastic was good enough unless it was abused, and when 
it failed the shifter still worked...and plastic failure posed to rider 
risk. Any hardware store has flat, wave, and split washers that can slide 
right in there and be a metal substitute and work well, but if one's thumbs 
are as big as one's big toes and the rest of the fingers are proportional, 
this rig can prove a little fussy, and it lacks the "key" that fits into 
the rectangular hole. (Tho once in place, it's solid). But Plastic Washer 
#2 has, so far after 4 years, proven to work 100 percent without breaking).

This doesn't mean the first was defo. It was exactly the same as the 
original washer in the SunTour shifter. It just means it's more 
"America-proof."

We sell those washers cheap in pairs, and it's those washers that'll go in 
the Silver-2 shifters. So they could be bought as backups, but considering 
their track record so far and the low-risk of a failure, buying more than 
one set of replacement washers is just supplying your heirs with tiny 
nothings to toss "later on." 

On a more personal level and if I can NOT speak for RBW for a second: I 
LIKE stuff that can wear out or break (as long as it's not constant) and 
that can be replaced and made good as new again. I did it for years with 
Campagnolo parts, and ball bearings in general, now and then a cup or a 
cone race. 



On Saturday, October 15, 2016 at 9:54:36 AM UTC-7, Conway Bennett wrote:
>
> G,
>
> Have you solved the wimpy plastic washer issue?  Maybe a thick hard 
> rubber?  I remember there were two types of action figures growing up: 
> brittle Gi joes who's thumbs broke off and these heartier more maliable 
> super heroes with a similar but durable Kung fu grip.  I don't know why 
> silvers 1s trigger this memory but that's where my mind goes.  In any case, 
> I learned my lesson and stocked up as I have silver 1s on noodles and cycle 
> thru them and chalk it up to regular maintenance.  
>
> FW,
>
> CBB
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Silver 2 shifters

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The band mated with the chunk and limited it to 22.2 bars, which was fine 
back then. It's fiddly to remove and remount (not t fiddly, but you 
have to remove the lever and go at it with an 8mm socket). NewSilver2 has 
some sort of curly flower thing going on 360-degrees, which lets you angle 
the cable ideally for any orientation. 
Not saying "perfectomundo" here---just saying we've gone about it slowly 
and conscientiously and have rejected at least two "final" versions when we 
found a way to either fix them or improve on something that didn't need an 
actual fix.

I debated internally (didn't leave my personal skull) whether or not to 
make the door to the pawl and spring user serviceable, but in a flareup of 
sanity that might sound disrespectbul, I said No. If or when the mech wears 
out, sell one of your cats and get a new one, Bubba...and in the meantime, 
the rivet will stop most people from digging into something that's best 
left alone. 

It's really a good feeling to see the enthusiasm for this shifter. It is 
really, still, amazing to me that 

(1) all shifters aren't like this, and
(2) since they aren't, since it's such a push-button age when perfect 
performance with no learning is the norm, that we can sell them at all!

What a strange group you are. In a fantastic way!

G

On Saturday, October 15, 2016 at 1:53:26 AM UTC-7, joe b. wrote:
>
> So cool! Wish they had "the band." I'm sure the new clamp is 28% better, 
> but holy cow was that hidden bolt band slick. Always seemed like the 
> closest thing I owned to constructeur. I wonder if the deuce will have the 
> same 3 point lever orientation option.
>
> Who cares, though, so happy they're back!
>
> Best,
> joe
> pdx or.
>
> On Oct 14, 2016 11:08 AM, "Bill Lindsay"  
> wrote:
>
>> The BLUG has a long write up and description of the Silver 2 shifters.  
>> One big take home is the Silver 1 shifter mold is shot, so those will be 
>> going away.  So, if you love Silver shifters, stock up now.  The Silver 2 
>> looks like it'll be a way better thumb shifter, a somewhat better barcon 
>> shifter, and an amusingly ironic downtube shifter.  Most importantly (to 
>> me), is that if you want to embolden Rivendell Bicycle Works to keep 
>> putting their money where their brains are, then reward them by buying a 
>> pair or two of Silver 2's and put them into your personal inventory.  When 
>> the need arises, get them from your stock.  If Riv gets a lot of early 
>> adopters buying them, then they'll have the confidence and the money to 
>> make the next part that you can't get anywhere else.  Grant tells you on 
>> the BLUG how to get on an email list for updates on the Silver 2.  
>>
>> Bill habitual-early-adopter Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: ROADINI tease on the BLUG

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The Rodin theme was too obvious to adopt, but it was always in the 
background. It'll likely be a frame only, but we're thinking about whole 
bike, and that's not ruled out. Maybe some of each. It may follow CLEM and 
have a seat lug. Sam is already a good road bike, but the clearances big 
you to fill them up with a huge "road?" tire, and Rodini won't allow that. 
Up to 35mm, probably.
Our bike certainly are not inexpensive, but they cannot possibly be any 
less expensive without do-featuring/de-cooling them or replacing the staff 
with wealthy philanthropists or unemployables! 
I think Will and Roman picked the colors. Same sizes as Sam.

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 12:02:36 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> His first name is Leo.  He apparently has paws.  Your Roadini that you buy 
> next summer may have a fake panel.  So far, nothing not to like
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Opinions on Dove Bars

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Dang, I just wrote a Pulitzer-worthy post, then went back for a fact-check 
and came back and couldn't find it, and now I'm in no mood to try to do it 
again, so I'll just lay 'er out there:

B347 is "Dove bar"  RBW was the first-in-memory to import it.
B352 is "Albatross" -- same story

At least one online seller has some facts wrong, and they are key facts.

The DOVE is NOT heat-treated and is NOT suited to trail use. 
The ALBATROSS  IS HT, and passes the toughest handlebar test (Mtn EN) that 
the world bike industry recognizes.

As for the "smooother" bend in the 347  really? How? And again--really? 
In the same paragraph that claims it is HT and suited to off-road riding, 
they play the aesthetic gatekeeper card? 

The 347 was intended for city use only. A few years ago, using another 
NITTO city bike bar, five worldwide burley strongboy acrobatic riders were 
either mislead or tempted by the low  priceand they broke the bar, 
didn't get badly hurt, but sued the maker. NITTO's impression of American 
(and German/European) riders is...ultra gonzo. Some are, but when those 
riders are also heavy and cheapskates, it's a bad combination.

We stopped selling the 347, not because it isn't perfect for its intended 
use, but because we got wind that people were buying it as a an economic 
alternative bargain to the 352. It went on mountain bikes and trail-riding 
hybrids.

Anyway: The 347 is a perfect lite-duti citibike bar. It is not 
heat-treated, is not recommended or strong enough for trail use.
The 352 Albatross is strong enough, has proven itself in testing and use, 
but if you're mayhem-bound, please ride another brand to keep NITTO (and 
us) out of the lawsuit loop.
G





On Thursday, September 29, 2016 at 2:39:24 PM UTC-7, Eric Karnes wrote:
>
> Hi all-
>
>
> I wanted to know if anyone here had any experiences with Nitto Dove bars? 
> If so, I’d be interested in your thoughts. How did you like them? Do they 
> have as much backward length as the Albas? Similar sweep angle? Enough for 
> a forward position? Hard to find much info online.
>
>
> I’m an upright bar man, but seem to be having trouble with pressure on my 
> palms. I’m currently running VO Porteurs on my SimpleOne. They are nice 
> bars and I like the width, but the pressure on my hands is usually 
> noticeable. I’ve tried them with different stems from 9 to 12cm and moved 
> my seat back a bit further, but I can’t discern too much of a difference. 
> Seems like Doves would allow me to get the bars a bit higher and fit ergon 
> grips. I’ve also tried albas on a number of bikes, but my narrow shoulders 
> don’t agree with the width.
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Eric
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Thank you and "Enjoy the Ride!"

[Grant @ Rivendell]

downhill eCumbents?<---dat da diff direction?

pm me please, P.
G


On Tuesday, September 13, 2016 at 4:04:44 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> I’m going to be riding off a different direction. Thank you all on this 
> group — you have helped me tremendously as I’ve dived into wrenching and 
> fine tuning the my rides. I am grateful for all you’ve given me. May God 
> startle you with joy!
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> www.OurHolyConception.org 
> www.MindYourHeadCoop.org 
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Are there a lot of Roadeos out there?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We sell about 40 a year--laughable by some standards, but it's one a week 
in a teacher's year. (Apologies to teachers who work in the summer). 

On Monday, July 25, 2016 at 9:47:52 PM UTC-7, Don Compton wrote:
>
> I bought a Roadeo the first year they were available and it's been my main 
> and recently only bike. I have always enjoyed Grant's bikes, but I am a 
> roady. I use really skinny 700x28 Grand Bois tires pumped up 65f and 75r. 
> Seriosly, for most club riders, the Roadeo is probably the best bike they 
> could ever ride, especially on the fast, curvy downhills in the Berkeley 
> hills.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Roadini

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Roadini will be more of a "Slim CLEM" road bike. We'll toe the line (as 
I've said) btw useful braze-ons and "sending the wrong message about what 
the bike is for" braze-ons—and the same for clearances/tire compatibility. 
<---those will be Roadeo-like. 

The Rambouillet and Romulus were lugged to the teeth, and that can't happen 
with a lowISH cost bike. Lugs are so so much more expensive to buy and 
build with, and yet we're not going to make a generic TIG bike, so we'll 
have some expensive crafty stuff on it, too.

 Putting together a bike (well, frame..) like this and trying to please all 
is like ordering the same pizza for a table of twenty and nailing 
perfection for every eater. Ultimately we're going to leave off the 
pineapple to the dismay of some, and include gorgonzola and anchovies to 
the delight of a few, and it could be the whole table is nonplussed! 

But---I promise there will be a reason for everything there and missing, 
and if you either already have a road bike and love it, or don't have one 
but are curious, the Roadini will worth a look at. OK now--that's enough 
"balls in the air" for now. We have too much going on. G

On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 8:34:34 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> The new Riv email introduces a new Clem-ish road bike on the horizon. Cool!

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Roadini

[Grant @ Rivendell]

To speculateurs and 'teuses:
Le Roadini..hm. I didn't realize we'd announced anything yet, but since le 
chat is out of the mussette, here's 100 percent of what there is to know 
about it:

1. It's not going to duplicate or overlap too much any existing bike except 
the Roadeo. No "85 percent Sam, but with lighter tubing."
2. We won't burden it with "The Thinker's Road bike," or other references 
to Rodin. Nothing to chuckle about or roll eyes about.
3. It certainly won't copy existing road geometries. It'll be well-designed 
from small to big, with the geometries that make our bikes feel like our 
bikes. 
4. We are considering what braze-ons to include. The idea is to make it 
useful, but not to encourage (for example) MFL. Do we add those little 
front of the fork braze-ons for a Mark's Rack, or will that encourage 
monster front loading? Practically, it would be an ideal bike for a small 
bar-mount bag, like the Bar Tube or the now-gone BarSack rack (which wins 
the record for the highest ratio of expected success-to-actual sales. Dang, 
if we bring it back, it'll be a "last gasp" bring-back, and if you ride 
drop bars you should get it).
5. Same reach as Roadeo. Again here, Homer-Sam clearances will send the 
message that it's just a featherweight Du-All, and it won't be that.

It'll take a Jack Brown, but not with a fender. Sidepulls, but not the 
Silvers with all that reach. It may have a few more braze-ons than a 
Roadeo, but we haven't settled on that yet.

It won't be a "high-plane/low-trailer," but I recognize that there's a 
place for those bikes!

It will look really good and ride like a pure road bike ought to, and will 
be --- other stuff...AND

it may have one ultra-groovy feature never seen before on any of our bikes. 
This is my "take back" for being forced to reveal so much so early on a 
bike that is more of a plan than settled yet! 

I really didn't know this was revealed, and I really don't mind that it 
was. Usually it's me who speaks too early, so whoever wrote that 
post--Roman or Dave, I guess--just made it easy for me. Anyway, it's a 
2017'er if it happens, and thanks for all of your nice comments and fun 
guesses and enthusiasm!

Grant

On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 8:34:34 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> The new Riv email introduces a new Clem-ish road bike on the horizon. Cool!

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Odds of a Fully lugged tandem happening?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

I'd always wanted to do a lugged tandem, but we can't afford the tooling 
for it, it would be extreemly suicidal, and it would take many 
tandem-curious people out of the running. A tandem is rarely the most 
ridden bike, and a super expensive one risks becoming a objet d'guilt or a 
at least a tug-o'-war thing in a marriage; and it rules out riders of 
moderate means. 
The HHH is a strong, fun, practical, and affortable--and even so, I think 
we've maxed out the market for it. We've place our order, and have 
painfully said no to one or two who missed the deadline.
Most of the stuff about it and that is here:
http://hubbuhubbuh.tumblr.com/

In a year or two if we have more interest, we could do another round of 
them. But "interest" would have to be followed by a pay-up-front & 
wait-a-ton commitment, and that's a lot to ask. I had no idea we'd get the 
response we did, but I think that's a one-time aberration-lightning bolt 
thing that could never be repeated. Anyway, I'm happy with the HHH because 
it is coming out so well, but I don't see us as a tandem company. I think 
(and hope) that other truly tandem companies will have a look at the HHH 
layout and so on, and copy it. Who wouldn't want a fun fatty tandem with a 
steel fork and almost unlimited capabilities that *allows* dangerous 
adventurous, but is ideal for family rides with kids as young as ten? 

On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 11:02:33 AM UTC-7, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> The current tandem is full tig i think?
> Someone correct if wrong.
>
> If this run is successful do you think riv will one day put out a full lug 
> version?
>
> Or would that price it out too high?
>
> Reason i ask is because lugs are so riv.
> But this may be only shot at a riv tandom of any breed ever.
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Bikes generally grow taller way faster than they grow longer, and 
so...bigger bikes are top-heavy. "Top-heavy" isn't exactly a scientific 
description, but it's a way to casually talk about the proportions of 
weight-up-high to wheelbase-down-low. For hundreds of decades, the longest 
chainstays available without jumping thru hoops were intended for small to 
mid-sized bikes, but when you can get (or have made) longer chainstays, it 
makes some sense to put them on bigger bikes. 
I likem on any bike, because they set you less on top of the rear hub, and 
combined with a softish tire, that has to make a less bumpy ride. Long 
wheelbases make a bike react less errratically on rough ground and in 
wind...and this is something I bet most people will notice. Also, with the 
shallowish seat tube angles we like (71.5 to 72.5 degrees), the saddle 
tends to sit back more than it does on a tracbikelike 74.5-deg seat tube 
angle (depends on the seat post and saddle too, but---all things equal, 
this is true).
Dave here can wheelie a long-stay Clem with the best of them, but the 
wheelie factor isn't important to me, as a guy who makes up numbers for 
bike frames. In the mid - '90s there was a mtn bike with super short 
chainstays, said to be a super climber. In theory kinda sorta--it is easy 
to say the shorter stays put more weight on the rear wheel for more 
tractions. But traction is only sometimes the thing that's stopping you 
from getting up the hill. On any steep seated climb, that bike wheelied all 
the time (putting even more weight on the rear wheel, for even more 
traction). I don't like to talk about bikes as "climbers" and "not 
climbers," but that bike was a "not climber" despite its 
traction-increasing short chainstays.
I think everbody should own a unicycle, a long-wheelbase tandem recumbent, 
and a couple of bike in between.


On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 3:12:12 PM UTC-7, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> More rivmodels headed that way.
>
> Cant think of any benefits other than stability, which rivs already have 
> plenty of, off top of my head.
> Was wondering what makes it worth the extra weight, 2 chains needed, and 
> less maneuverability due to longer bike length in garages, near bike racks, 
> BARTs, carrying through house, etc,
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: A bit offtopic discussion of RivBike's shipping times

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We always try to listen!
As many with shipping experiences in small businesses have noted, it's a 
continuing source of angst...but we try to do our best. The time spent 
picking and packing a $10 order can be the same or more than for a $200 
order, and although we appreciate any order, when we get one for the brass 
housing ferrules that nobody else has, and maybe a bell, there's a gap btw 
what it costs to get that bad boy in the mail and what the customer hopes 
to spend getting it there.
In some companies, I imagine that the shippers are entry-level and often 
the lowest compensated. It's not that way here. We have two shippers and we 
treat, and they treat, their jobs as career jobs. Their pay is 45 to 50 
percent of mine, and even so, there's no fluff--them or me. In return, you 
get a package packed better than any other company in the world, I believe.
Last week there was something I had to send to a friend. I try to do this 
personal stuff myself, but I was busy. I boxed it up, even cut the box to 
size, and did a perfectly functionally good job of it. But I didn't slice 
the tape before folding it, and my box-bending wasn't crips, and the tape 
held it together asymmetrically. I overtaped it. About an hour later Robert 
brought me the box and held it up to me like it was a birthday cake and 
said, "Uh-uh." I was afraid he'd do that, and it was a shameful moment, but 
it's cool that he puts as much effort into his job as I do into some bikey 
thing I do. I just said, "Sorry..." and he had the grace to not rub it in. 
This may make it seem as though you're paying for fanatical packing, but 
it's not like that. Robt and Jenny are super efficient, too.
Lots of times when the margins are high, shipping costs can be absorbed 
into it, and then...like, the $189 44lb Huffy fat bike I bought and wrote 
about in RR44, the shipping cost was $18 or something. LL Bean charges 
nothing. That doesn't mean their shippers work for nothing or they're 
losing money on it; it just means the selling price can absorb it all.

Anyway, there's only so many words I can write about this without coming 
off like a whiner, and I've got nothing to whine about. This is just a 
chance to thank those of you who have experience in shipping and with our 
shipping and have taken the time to speak up...and then, to try to explain 
some behind-the-scenes stuff.

And finally, yes, agreed, on the need for instant knowing exactly where my 
package is. The days of patiently waiting for the Wells Fargo wagon are 
long gone. Analog shipping may be on the outs, but it's what we've got for 
now, and ... if we get your order by 1pm on a Tuesday, there's a 90 percent 
chance it'll go out that day. 

On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 3:22:49 PM UTC-7, Belopsky wrote:
>
> Ordered gloves, ferrules, a couple washers..
>
> $9 for surepost.
>
> And estimate delivery? July 1st. Ridiculous, right?
>
> All of those items would fit into a flat rate envelope and be here in 3 
> days vis USPS.
>
> Grant, hope you and others are listening.
>
>
> Thoughts everyone?
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Talk to me about bottom brackets

[Grant @ Rivendell]

BB spindle length:

It's always safe and usually best to use the bb the crank maker recommends, 
or (more to the point) a dimensional equivalent. I'm not going to address 
taper here, just quick notes about length. It comes down to chainline, 
which has nothing to do with the chain. Almost everything anybody could 
possibly say about CL has already been said by Sheldon on his site, but I 
don't remember whether he addressed derailers there, so I will fast here. 
Chainline is how far out from the center of the seat tube the middle ring 
on a triple sits, or the midpoint between two rings on a double sits. 

There are two common chainlines, I mean three: 

43 or 43.5mm (I forget)--for road doubles
47.5mm -- for road triples and hybrid-like bikes. 
50.5 or 51(I forget) -- for mtn bikes

"For" means "typical," not "the only way." 
But what it means is that mtn bike front derailers can reach farther out 
and can't drag in as close as road front derailers. 

Example: If you put a Sugino or Silver crank on a 110mm bb spindle, the 
chainline will be 47.5, and an XT or any other mtn front derailer will be 
able to shift to the big ring, but not to the small one. To fix that, you 
put a 113mm bb spindle, which changes the CL from 47.5 to 50.5, and it all 
works.

There is no perfect correlation bwt Q-Factor and CL. In general, mtn cranks 
are for bow-legged cowboys and they have high Q's, but it's easy to design 
and make great mtn cranks with mtn bike CLs and low-Q's (under 163?). The 
mtn crank makers don't generally do that, though, because then their cranks 
won't fit onto lots of expensive and prestigious bikes that have chainstays 
that stick out too far in the wrong spots and so require higher Q-Factors.

This doesn't address durability, but it's rare to hear of $40 bb's crapping 
out. Not unheard of, but it's not unheard of at any price, either. We are 
going to stock an ol' cup-and-cone style BB in ass't lengths sometime this 
year. It will cost more and we'll refuse to sell it to -- how do I best say 
this? -- a "newbie with romantic/retro sensibilities but no experience with 
this kind of BB." We certainly won't quit selling the $40 Shimano bbs, 
which are so good. What we will do, when it all happens, is extol the 
theoretical virtues of the old kind...which, given the reliabiliy of the 
new kind, are undeniable, but may not matter.
G

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 1:27:49 PM UTC-7, dstein wrote:
>
> Why are more expensive bottom brackets more expensive? What do you gain? 
> Is it just durability? Or is there any sort of performance gain (ie, does 
> it roll smoother, faster, etc)?
>
> I've worked on most bike parts now minus the bottom bracket and headset. 
> About to change cranks on my hunqapillar form the Sugino triple (with a 107 
> or 110 bb) to a White Industries Eno (with a 113 bb). Trying to figure out 
> if I go w/ the $40 bb on Riv's site? Or a White Industries or something 
> similar? This bike will see 500-1000 miles a year on dirt and some mud. And 
> support the occasional overnighter.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Will Rosco see the light of day?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We have deposits for the first run-o-Rubbes and are planning (designing 
another now). So far, so good. Most of the forks are Sams, but there are 
some others. We're trying hard NOT to overlap existing models. Like, we 
have no tall-tall Sam, but we have forks for a 64, so we can do something 
like that. We're about out of Clem L's in 59 with no more coming, so we can 
do a stepthru tall bike. All of them will (be edict!) have a "Bubbe Tube,' 
formerly a funkatube, because it works good and looks good--esp on a bike 
with like a 12-degr upslope. And it make the bike easier to carry. We have 
special 24mm and 22.2mm round x 0.8 CrMo tubes for these B-tubes. And in 
some cases you may see trad tube diameters (28.6 seat and down tubes, 25.4 
top tubes) combined with a Btube as small as 22.2. ---the Btube will add 
structure to a bike that without it might be wimpy for its size. 
Also, throw in a 31.8 downtube on such a frame, and you'll have four diff 
diameters. 
None of this is nutty or willy nilly. There are different ways to add 
structure, and we'll get creative or quirky now and then, but not at the 
cost of the frame. 

Anyway, they're coming. We're getting one here, too. The plan is, for every 
runorubs, we get one here, and we'll ride it and eventually sell it. 


On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 3:34:34 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I didn't sign up for the email list, because I did not have a sincere 
> intent to buy another bike.  The rosco blug said they will order them if 
> (IF!) they get deposits for 10 by April 20th, and it looks like they've got 
> 6 so far.  Does that mean Rosco will get delayed, or dropped?  I hope it 
> happens.  Those bikes look really cool.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: ROSCO mailing list

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Maybe this has been addressed already, but when Deore came out in '85 or 
'84 or '86, it came with a deer head logo, all the bike riders in my clique 
figured the Japanese guys misspelled "deer," but then there was the 
possibility of "de-ore" being some international befuddling name for "of 
gold," but they kept the deer in there anyway, 'cause they liked it.

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 at 3:48:27 AM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> After pulling Joe's leg, I thought more about Shimano model names, and 
> damn if they are not very weird indeed -- as weird in their own way as 
> proprietary drug names (Sidafex: good for *all* your ills.)
>
> Deore? Ultegra? Exage? Sante? Dura Ace? From what abyssal mental sink do 
> these bubble forth? They clearly have a superficial plausibility, but stop 
> and ponder them, and you are sucked into abysses of meaninglessness.
>
> It's a very weird world.
>
> Patrick Moore, sensitive to words after reading Job:
> Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook?
> or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
> Canst thou put an hook into his nose?
> or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
> 3Will he make many supplications unto thee?
> will he speak soft words unto thee?
> 4Will he make a covenant with thee?
> wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
> Wilt thou play with him as with a bird?
> or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: ROSCO mailing list

[Grant @ Rivendell]

On the topic of secrecy and open-ness---it's probably fine to post to 
Forumists...my concern is that it's a first for us to be so out there with 
bikes that are still being developed, and I did n't want naysayers or 
advisors  up the wazoo. There have been a few, not many, and it's been 
positive, for sure. And it's not that I'm closed to advice; it's more that 
for this kind of bike there are limitations and obvioius pathways that are 
hard to see or understand if you haven't been on this side of the fence. 
For the record, I am influencible! I read all comments, and respond to the 
ones that make sense to respond to.
So far it's been fun, and I've got to say I'm enjoying the comments. So go 
ahead and go to the ROSCO blug, and there's a HUBBUHUBBUH one now, 
too---somewhere, I don't know.
It is possible the HHH won't happen--depens on orders and payments. But 
ROBU will definitely happen. It's exciting here. I am kind of worried that 
all the talk (that I do about it) may still lead to nothing, and then will 
draw criticism for being responsible for popping the Red Balloon. So I 
recommend a minimal emotional investment in these projects, but our 
intention is to see them both through. I've got 80+ hours invested in each 
one, and I'm looking to see them happen.
G

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 12:43:56 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Just saw this on the BLUG. Put "ROSCO BUBBE, your name" in the subject 
> line to gr...@rivbike.com  and you'll get updates on this 
> cool project. Be like me, do it today!

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] CLEARCOAT o'er baremetal & why we don't do it anymore

[Grant @ Rivendell]

I am not fluent here and tried to respond to other comments about it, then 
gave up and thought I could do it here & this way...wondering all the while 
whether this is what "thread thwacking" is.  Anyway, this isn't the last 
word on it, just our experience and observations.

It looks best and the way you want it to look if the frame is not blasted 
after building. Then you get the fire marks and general variegation that 
gets the blood flowing. If the frame is blasted after building and you 
clear coat over that, it looks like boring metallic gray with some 
brass-colored pinstriping (if lugs). Nobody will say *hey, cool;* they'll 
just think, *hey, kinda boring*.

Clear coat is porous, which means water gets thru it and causes rust. We 
had a local powder coater assure us that it had an ultranew and 
supereffective way to protect the metal from rust, but it didn't work. 
Inland bikes, no big problem, but if you live in a sugar shack on 
Chesapeake Bay, it won't last.

Powder coating, wet painting, no matter. Powder coating isn't the 
"bulletproof, no-nonsense, thanks for not making me have to think about 
anything" solution it is sometimes portrayed as. It was developed for thick 
steel tractors, as a durable, chip-resistant layer. The proble, besides 
being pourous, is that with powder there is no primer to help fight rust 
and protect the metal when it does chip. And powder coatings tends to have 
more micro-cracks than wet paint. When the paint is opaque, it's easy to 
assume all's well underneath, but when it's clear, you can actually see 
what's happening.

If clear-coating was a GREAT idea, we'd offer it. It's used on show bikes 
sometimes as a novelty and to show how great the metal looks, but if the 
air is humid or salty or it rains a lot or something like that, it's not 
fantastic...in our experience here, at least.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Re: MIESHA HAS LEFT RIVENDELL

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Miesha's working for the county now, some kind of benefits-evaluation 
position..where people who are hoping to qualify for public assistance call 
in or fill out forms, and then get the nod or don't, based on their 
qualifications. For Miesha, it's a way worse commute, at least for the 
immediate future, but with the distant prospect of a much better commute in 
the future. As a JOB goes, it sounds worse than here, but maybe the pay or 
benefits are better---but I think she hopes to work closer to home within a 
year or so.
Miesha is and was as wonderful as she seemed. We all miss her, and -- in 
the words of Bob Dylan...

"...think of her often and hope whoever she's met/will be fully aware of 
how precious she is."

G

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 1:47:06 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Does anyone know what she will be doing?
>
> On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 1:40 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> Well that is some bittersweet news. No doubt she is stepping into a new 
>> challenge, but she was always a pleasure to deal with and seemed to be a 
>> more or less permanent member of the Rivendell family. My last interaction 
>> with her was indirect--while I was on the phone with I think Will, 
>> discussing whether to get my Clementine in orange or black, Miesha was in 
>> the background voicing full support for my reasons for black. Best regards, 
>> Miesha.
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 5:40:27 PM UTC-5, Jon Dukeman in the 
>> foothills of Colorado wrote:
>>>
>>> New news to me.
>>> I found out today Miesha has found other employment but has left Riv in 
>>> good standing.
>>> *WE WILL MISS YOU MIESHA! *
>>> What a wonderful person.Best wishes to her.
>>> Jon
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Crack in the Sam headtube??

[Grant @ Rivendell]

I haven't read the responses, but it is SLIGHTLY disturbing that a possible 
crack like this goes public before it comes to us. It's life in 2016, and I 
harbor  no anything, but it's not a direct way, and it is embarrassing. If 
the second-owner of this frame contacts us directly, -- well, as the second 
owner, there's little we're obligated to do, but there's always something 
we will try to do. Advice. Help. Who knows? But some matters, even in an 
age of "everything's public," are best handled privately.
G

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 2:27:28 PM UTC-8, Edwin W wrote:
>
> I was performing a very rare bike cleaning and saw a bit of a chip in the 
> paint of the headtube on my Sam. It is a 60cm, single top tube orange one 
> with side pulls, if you are interested. I am the second ownder and have put 
> 5000 or so miles on it over the last three years.
> Can you all take a look at the two photos posted here 
>  and 
> let me know what you think?
> Is it a crack? Yes, it looks like that. It is right where the point of the 
> lug is, which must add some kind of stress? Metallurgists and engineers 
> please chime in.
> What to do about it? Replace the head tube? What size of a job is that? 
> Does every city (even a not very bikey city like Nashville) have someone 
> who could do this?
> Any other wisdom would be appreciated.
>
> Why does steel have to be THIS real?
>
> Edwin
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Removing shellac on paint

[Grant @ Rivendell]

MCGUIAR'S car wax is the stuff Joe Bell recommends. We've used it now and 
then. About 17 years ago a guy got a custom fixie bike, and don't wonder 
why, there was no good actual reason, but I put a rare earth magnet on it 
for some reason. Maybe to hold a piece of paper on it. That is beside the 
point, as people used to say. Anyway, the bike was metallic navy blue, and 
the magnet pulled, or seemed to pull, some of the metallic flakes to the 
surface, because instead of evenly distributed stars, just under the magnet 
there was now a concentration, like a dense galaxy of metallic brightness. 
Joe Bell recommended McGuiar's and it worked, and I can't explain why, but 
it was our last resort, but the only effective one...logic-defying tho it 
may have been.

On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 8:57:12 AM UTC-8, drew wrote:
>
> I worked a couple of bikes through handlebar swaps and got apparently got 
> a little carried away with shellacking, but didn't notice/care for about a 
> week. Tried denatured alcohol and it sorts of worked for some thicker 
> spots, but the thinner areas are giving me grief. Now it seems like the 
> removal process is dulling the paint in the frustrating area. 
>
> So what do you use to remove shellac?
>
> Is there a wax or polish that people use to protect or restore paint on 
> bikes?
> Also, I do get the beausage thing. Battlescars and stuff I can abide, but 
> this is just sloppy work on my part.
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Removing shellac on paint

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Somebody already said it, but here's a repeat with some background. Shellac 
comes off the tree as a solid, and is liquified for use with denatured 
alcohol, its solvent. So denatured alcohol has to make the list of Go To 
shellac removers...and related to that...the gel form of alcohol may stay 
in place easier, if soaking's required. Purel. I splattered a bunch of 
shellac on some patio furniture when I was--well, I forget what I was doing 
with it, but I use it for lots of projects. I am an expeurt removeur of 
shellac. Gotta be, because I get it all over the place. I haven't tried 
WD-40, but I wouldn't underestimate that in any time of crisis.

On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 8:57:12 AM UTC-8, drew wrote:
>
> I worked a couple of bikes through handlebar swaps and got apparently got 
> a little carried away with shellacking, but didn't notice/care for about a 
> week. Tried denatured alcohol and it sorts of worked for some thicker 
> spots, but the thinner areas are giving me grief. Now it seems like the 
> removal process is dulling the paint in the frustrating area. 
>
> So what do you use to remove shellac?
>
> Is there a wax or polish that people use to protect or restore paint on 
> bikes?
> Also, I do get the beausage thing. Battlescars and stuff I can abide, but 
> this is just sloppy work on my part.
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: suspicious Cheviot on Bay Area CL

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Former ultra-p/t BikeBookHatchet employee. Kind of a bummer. She loved the 
bike, but...yep.

On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 8:38:23 PM UTC-8, Kurt Manley wrote:
>
> $700, Listed on CL in 2 cites far apart. Possibly legit but if you are 
> missing a Cheviot you might want to take a look.
>
> https://modesto.craigslist.org/bik/5454135931.html
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: What's in a Rivendell name?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Good idea! It might be a bit creepy, but Tad Lewd might fly as a model 
name...under the right circumstances. I am impressed and slightly surprised 
that the list is so long.

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 8:36:51 AM UTC-8, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> Interesting bike names:
>
> Clem,
> Homer,
> Roscoe,
> Wilbury,
> Southern states sounding names, curiously, from west coast bike company.
>
> Betty,
> Sam,
> Joe,
> Roadeo,
> Redwood,
> Simple One
> sound very all-American USA
>
> Gomez,
> Chevio/ut,
> Bleriot
> Rambouillet,
> Atlantis,
> Hilsen
> sound international
>
> Legolas,
> Bombadill,
> Rivendell,
> sound like the books/movies
>
> Hunqapillar
> sounds like a wooly mammoth rampant on a field of single track.
>
> Appaloosa and Glorious
> sound elegant and dreamy.
>
> Hubbahubbah sounds friendly and funny and playful. Maybe a tad lewd, like 
> the blug post says.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: craigslist PSA- 45cm Clem frame in Brooklyn NY

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Dang, it's a bummer for me. I don't understand it. The CLEM..my god, it's 
dang perfect---or at least, it came out the way I'd intended, and is such a 
good deal. This makes me feel like a failure. I can see selling bikes after 
years--things change, maybe the need for sudden money, maybe some tragedy 
or travel--but so soon, and CLEM?
The painted fork crown wings ID's it as a frame only purchase. Maybe it's a 
complete bike now--I haven't looked at the listing--but it was bought as a 
frame. I don't need to know or want to know the details, but ... 
aaagggh. Onward ho..

On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 8:23:08 AM UTC-8, Kainalu wrote:
>
> Not me, don't know who, but $600 seems like a good deal?  
> I wish it were 200,000 micrometers bigger
> -Kai
> Brooklyn NY
>
> http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/bik/5417334325.html
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: New 1 1/8" threadless stem on 2/10 Blug

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We have considered the re-muv-a-plate and have not totally rejected it. I 
think I'm the only one here who has any misgivings at all, but I'm also the 
one who'd get in trouble if Joe Blow blew it with the bolts and got 
hurt--and tragically, that influences things, sometimes. I feel an emoticon 
coming on! Anyway, the stem is best used when converting a too-small bike 
with drops or straight bars, to an Albatross or Choco bar. Maybe Alba if a 
road bike, or Choco-with-its-greater-sweep if a mountain bike---and in 
either case, those bars won't need changing :). <--is that right?
NITTO does some r-plate stems, and reports that the vertical slot isn't as 
strong as a horizontal slot, and that becomes an issue with wider bars and 
mountain bars. A 42cm drop bar doesn't leverage the clamp as much as a 55cm 
wide-y. All these things the tests reveal that rides don't, but that we, as 
kind of gatekeepers for your safety, have to watch out for.

Many things related to bike set up and component use and correctness that 
may seem obvious to 99 percent of you reading this, are not to be taken for 
granted among the population as a whole, by which I include and am only 
really talking about OUR customers. I think our customer have more than 
average bike smarts, but as the years pass the number of bikes and parts 
we've put out there climbs, and ownership passes to eBay customer and so 
on...and it doesn't mean we have to ultra-dumb down our stuff, it just 
means we have to chew on things longer before doing 'em.

The Jumbo Grabsack...I'll try my old 15-er in it and report. That computer 
died, but it has a great Sheldon sticker on it, so I keep it around. 
Anyway, not to bring up THIS again, but I have been known to tote a laptop 
around in a Saddlesack LIKE EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE, and a 13er in El Jumbo 
fits into a MED..but a 15er won't. It'd go into a large, though.

High rise with 25.4 mm clamp; looks promising. But puh *leeze* make the 
> clamp with a removable face plate!
>
> The larger Grabsack also looks good, but alas it is designed for a 13" 
> laptop, not the 15" I have. They should add a waist strap, too.
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities 
> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Rosco Bubbe

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Right, Joe. Here's the whole short story: When somebody buys a bike, we 
have to account for the possibility that they'll smash a fork in a wreck. 
We don't keep statistics on this, but it's got to be way less than 1 
percent, and way more than zero (as the bent Roadeo fork in the current 
BLUG shows). 
Over the years our accumulation of forks has reached 184. Some raw 
(unpainted), some painted, and all of them specific to one model and size. 
Betty forks painted Betty blue with the red detailing; orange Sam forks, 
and lots of raw Sams and Simpleone forks. A few Hunqa forks.
They all have threaded steerers that require head tubes of a certain length 
(plus/minus 2cm, depending how many head tube spacers used). Or, they could 
be cut and converted to 1-inch threadless, but we've opted to minimize the 
work on them, and just use them as they are.

We've counted and separated the forks, and in the last few days I've been 
designing frames around them. The beacon is head tube length. If I 
determine that a fork requires a HTL of 235mm, that steers some aspects of 
the design. The frame can be small, with a radicaly upsloping Top Tube, or 
it can be bigger, with less upslope. It can be a mixte or not. 

We can't afford to do these bikes with normal joint lugs, so we'll tig 'em 
and sort of modify the CLEM way. There will be mini lugs, and the fork 
crown is a lug, but the tubes will be tigged together. This gives us more 
flexibility and reduces cost, and the idea is ten of these, eight of those, 
fourteen of something else, in a variety of styles. We may offer frames 
only, we may offer whole bikes only---that depends on a number of things 
that nobody in the real world out there has access to, so there's no need 
right now to build a strong case either way.

Rather than create a new model for each variation--and the decals and badge 
to go along--we gunna callemall ROSCO - BUBBE, a catchall name for these 
few-of-a-kind bikes that allow us to put the fantastic forks to good use, 
and heaven forbid, clear out some shelf space in the warehouse and make 
some pocket money.

I'm having fun designing the bikes. I'm taking advantage of the inherent 
flexibility and the low numbers to -- from my POV-- have a little fun with 
them. The designs will make sense, but may offend classicists. One idea 
that really turns me on also makes me nervous, but it'll affect twelve 
frames, and they'll be unique and spectacular, and it's a smart way to go. 

Waterford may build some. Some will definitely be MIT<--made in Taiwan. We 
may offer a "name it yourself" option with the leftover separate letter 
packs that never got used on the CLEMs. 

Overall,  it's better to make killer bikes from the languishing forks than 
to enable their languishing, so that's what we're going to do. No more 
details are available at this time, but we'll make it fun and good.

G

On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 8:31:50 AM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> This name resurfaced on the BLUG yesterday. Its original proposed 
> incarnation was a child's bike, which Grant determined to be too expensive 
> to sell. The reintroduction specifies "adult bikes" with a seat-clamp 
> intended for the new tandem. Hmm...

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Re: Local Rivendell Dealer suggestions for DELMARVA area?

[Grant @ Rivendell]

 I don't detect MUCH confusion about why we want to open a few dealers, but 
 maybe there's some, so here's the whole thing: Our sales have been about 
 $2.85 million a year for several years straight (a 5-year low of $2.8, and 
 two years of $2.9) I don't know whether that sounds high or low, but what I 
 can say for sure (but at some risk of coming off like a whiner) is that for 
 a company of 12 F/T employees and 6-7 P/Timers, dealing expensive and 
 generally low-margin gear with high development costs and payment terms 
 that tend to crush cash flow--and also, I am happy to say, paying our staff 
 as much as possible and way more than our cpa would like---that $2.9 
 million is not quite sustainable.

I'm 61, not planning any retirement, still totally loving this stuff, and 
looking forward to doing some more hopefully helpful but definitely fun and 
satisfying things.   I believe that our bikes are good enough to reach more 
people. I look at the Sam or Chev and now the Clem and then I look at what 
people are spending in the real world and what they're getting, and I think 
hey, that too small/unsuitable/dangerous/4-year bike that cost way more 
than a Sam is not the perfect bike for you---and yet we can't reach these 
riders all by ourselves, so we need some dealers.
To do dealers right means bending and stretching to work with them on 
their inviolable terms, and hoping they'll bend a little to us (like, 
paying with a credit card before we ship). That is the tuffy. Selling to 
even a small number of dealers requires more cash-available than we ever 
have. We've had an LC of $50,000, and have paid it down to $45,000. I 
recently talked to our bank about getting more, and we're getting another 
$100,000 out of it, but even that's not enough to let us proceed with our 
tempered, realistic plans for 2016. We need another $50K, and we've 
borrowed already too many times from friends, the occasional employee 
(always paid back on schedule), my own home equity (may never be paid 
back), and now we need and are getting some bank help, but not enough.
The Big Plan (by our measure) is to have four models in stock most of 2016: 
Sam, CLEM, Chev, and a new Tourishy bike with that wild new crown. Plus 
finally, I want to have 20 tandems, complete in the box. Like Clemdems, 
To me, for us, it seems outrageous and risky, but it is definitely not as 
risky as staying the way we are. The bikes won't suffer, they'll continue 
to improve. There's no change in philosophy or anything like that. We're 
sticking to our guns (although allowing more TIGGING than before).  But 
yes, those four bikes are going to help us, and we're getting a few dealers 
slowly and carefully. We've got one refusal from a dealer I really wanted 
and thought would for sure go for it (longtime friend); but it's not 
happening, so o well. We're opening up at most 10 by the end of the year. 
It may be seven. Will's doing it, with some guidance from me, retrieved 
from that decade at Bstone... We're nearly full of dealers. I want one in 
Marin, maybe Oak/SF, for sure the TC, since I have a daughter in college 
there (she rides a Trek steel converted mtn bike with fenders, rack, and 
Bosco bars, which she loves. She should be on a CLEM. Her Glorius is here 
at home--am not going to sacrifice another one of those to the Twin Cities 
bike thieves).
Anyway...things are fine, changes are in the air, and let me say 
sincerely--and not as a trick to help it continue---that it is extremely 
gratifying to know that we have a community of yay-sayers out there, right 
here. Thanks, and adios para ahora...
G



-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Grant's review in WSJ

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We'll have a pdf of it on the site or blug within a day or two.

On Sunday, April 12, 2015 at 10:53:51 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 Is there any way for someone who does not subscribe to get behind the 
 paywall to see the text? 

 Thanks.

 On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 11:39 AM, 'richard sulkes' via RBW Owners Bunch 
 rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript: wrote:


 Check out Grant's review of Bike Battles: A History of Sharing the 
 American Road, by James Longhurst, in the book section of yesterday's Wall 
 Street Journal. Well written, and I was curious how that review found 
 itself in the Journal.

 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad https://yho.com/footer0

 -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 RBW Owners Bunch group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
 email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:.
 To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
 javascript:.
 Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.




 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
 Patrick Moore
 Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
 *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
 circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
 individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

 *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

 *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
  

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.