Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Sebastien, Exactly right, which was the idea of this thread. Will we actually ever get to where we are today with ICE, with the approach AD are taking with Bifrost? Nothing they can tell us in an open forum like this will actually answer that question. So read into that what you will. On 24 March 2014 05:37, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.comwrote: If they are already talking about it being a stand alone engine that can plug into Maya AND Max, how exactly would it be able to deal with: - building custom deformers (thereby reading and driving polygon mesh point positions) - manipulating shape data (-- reading and driving the per-point shape vectors per polygon mesh point position) - manipulating UV's - manipulating kinematic transforms Would there be two context libraries ? one for Maya and one for Max ? cause that sounds like an awful amount of work, not that there are any plans to port to max i would not think. Plus you often hear that phrase, Maya is aware of bitfrost but bitfrost is unaware of Maya, it doesn't know where the data it crunches is going. At any rate for now its a FLIP solver, next year will it be a FLIP solver with a Node based interface ? and a year and X$ subscription dollars after that? what will it be ? It is going to take at least 3 years for it to be something other then what we can expect. On 23 March 2014 17:21, Aleksa Orlov aleksaor...@gmail.com wrote: Or, to put it more bluntly, we already waited and invested those 5 years. It is now expected to do it all over again. *Cui bono*? On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:22 PM, Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.comwrote: Adrian, we are talking years (5?) of development here to get a full solid stable platform... don't you think it is quite a lot to ask to someone that already has almost all of that? Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.com On 21 Mar 2014, at 17:41, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread ( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.ukhttp://glassworks.co.uk/ (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Surely if the Fabric guys can deal with those things in multiple programs Autodesk can find a way as well. On 24 March 2014 10:01, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: Sebastien, Exactly right, which was the idea of this thread. Will we actually ever get to where we are today with ICE, with the approach AD are taking with Bifrost? Nothing they can tell us in an open forum like this will actually answer that question. So read into that what you will. On 24 March 2014 05:37, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.comwrote: If they are already talking about it being a stand alone engine that can plug into Maya AND Max, how exactly would it be able to deal with: - building custom deformers (thereby reading and driving polygon mesh point positions) - manipulating shape data (-- reading and driving the per-point shape vectors per polygon mesh point position) - manipulating UV's - manipulating kinematic transforms Would there be two context libraries ? one for Maya and one for Max ? cause that sounds like an awful amount of work, not that there are any plans to port to max i would not think. Plus you often hear that phrase, Maya is aware of bitfrost but bitfrost is unaware of Maya, it doesn't know where the data it crunches is going. At any rate for now its a FLIP solver, next year will it be a FLIP solver with a Node based interface ? and a year and X$ subscription dollars after that? what will it be ? It is going to take at least 3 years for it to be something other then what we can expect. On 23 March 2014 17:21, Aleksa Orlov aleksaor...@gmail.com wrote: Or, to put it more bluntly, we already waited and invested those 5 years. It is now expected to do it all over again. *Cui bono*? On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:22 PM, Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.comwrote: Adrian, we are talking years (5?) of development here to get a full solid stable platform... don't you think it is quite a lot to ask to someone that already has almost all of that? Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.com On 21 Mar 2014, at 17:41, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread ( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.ukhttp://glassworks.co.uk/ (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Yeah, but you are forgetting, that the Fabric guys, are magic ;) On 24 March 2014 10:03, Peter Agg peter@googlemail.com wrote: Surely if the Fabric guys can deal with those things in multiple programs Autodesk can find a way as well. On 24 March 2014 10:01, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: Sebastien, Exactly right, which was the idea of this thread. Will we actually ever get to where we are today with ICE, with the approach AD are taking with Bifrost? Nothing they can tell us in an open forum like this will actually answer that question. So read into that what you will. On 24 March 2014 05:37, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.comwrote: If they are already talking about it being a stand alone engine that can plug into Maya AND Max, how exactly would it be able to deal with: - building custom deformers (thereby reading and driving polygon mesh point positions) - manipulating shape data (-- reading and driving the per-point shape vectors per polygon mesh point position) - manipulating UV's - manipulating kinematic transforms Would there be two context libraries ? one for Maya and one for Max ? cause that sounds like an awful amount of work, not that there are any plans to port to max i would not think. Plus you often hear that phrase, Maya is aware of bitfrost but bitfrost is unaware of Maya, it doesn't know where the data it crunches is going. At any rate for now its a FLIP solver, next year will it be a FLIP solver with a Node based interface ? and a year and X$ subscription dollars after that? what will it be ? It is going to take at least 3 years for it to be something other then what we can expect. On 23 March 2014 17:21, Aleksa Orlov aleksaor...@gmail.com wrote: Or, to put it more bluntly, we already waited and invested those 5 years. It is now expected to do it all over again. *Cui bono*? On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:22 PM, Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.comwrote: Adrian, we are talking years (5?) of development here to get a full solid stable platform... don't you think it is quite a lot to ask to someone that already has almost all of that? Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.com On 21 Mar 2014, at 17:41, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread ( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.ukhttp://glassworks.co.uk/ (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Queue the sounds of Queen “its a kinda magic” ;) From: Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.commailto:sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com Reply-To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Date: Monday 24 March 2014 at 12:22 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Yeah, but you are forgetting, that the Fabric guys, are magic ;) On 24 March 2014 10:03, Peter Agg peter@googlemail.commailto:peter@googlemail.com wrote: Surely if the Fabric guys can deal with those things in multiple programs Autodesk can find a way as well. On 24 March 2014 10:01, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.commailto:chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: Sebastien, Exactly right, which was the idea of this thread. Will we actually ever get to where we are today with ICE, with the approach AD are taking with Bifrost? Nothing they can tell us in an open forum like this will actually answer that question. So read into that what you will. On 24 March 2014 05:37, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.commailto:sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com wrote: If they are already talking about it being a stand alone engine that can plug into Maya AND Max, how exactly would it be able to deal with: - building custom deformers (thereby reading and driving polygon mesh point positions) - manipulating shape data (-- reading and driving the per-point shape vectors per polygon mesh point position) - manipulating UV's - manipulating kinematic transforms Would there be two context libraries ? one for Maya and one for Max ? cause that sounds like an awful amount of work, not that there are any plans to port to max i would not think. Plus you often hear that phrase, Maya is aware of bitfrost but bitfrost is unaware of Maya, it doesn't know where the data it crunches is going. At any rate for now its a FLIP solver, next year will it be a FLIP solver with a Node based interface ? and a year and X$ subscription dollars after that? what will it be ? It is going to take at least 3 years for it to be something other then what we can expect. On 23 March 2014 17:21, Aleksa Orlov aleksaor...@gmail.commailto:aleksaor...@gmail.com wrote: Or, to put it more bluntly, we already waited and invested those 5 years. It is now expected to do it all over again. Cui bono? On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:22 PM, Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.commailto:jordiba...@gmail.com wrote: Adrian, we are talking years (5?) of development here to get a full solid stable platform… don't you think it is quite a lot to ask to someone that already has almost all of that? Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.commailto:jordiba...@gmail.com On 21 Mar 2014, at 17:41, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.commailto:adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182tel:%2B44%20%280%2920%207434%201182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://glassworks.co.ukhttp
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
2014-03-21 17:53 GMT+01:00 Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian Hi, the aim is laudably but, as software engineers, wouldn't user integration and usability be their end goal ? I mean, an internal engineer difficulty or a managing problem shouldn't be a penality on the user side or limit the client user in functionality... in my opinion here the sucess story about ICE is that's all in the level of integration not on the technology.
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
I don't want to start all over again. But I don't see how Bifrost running as a parallel process in the background, could get at some point the same functionality as ICE. At this moment all you can do from that webinar ending video is create a particle grid domain, send the interacting geo to Bifrost, wait for it to simulate, cache using Alembic and get back that solution in Maya. Again it could be addressed the same way by Softimage, but with the interactivity of ICE with the solution. For this kind of work I don't see any real advantage over Softimage/Realflow. Except that of generating the grid domain straight from the Maya UI and send the data to Bifrost. It is well known by us that ICE is not only a fluid solver. Maybe Autodesk will shut up my mouth in 5 years... --- Emilio Hernández VFX 3D animation. 2014-03-24 4:33 GMT-06:00 Nono nnois...@gmail.com: 2014-03-21 17:53 GMT+01:00 Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian Hi, the aim is laudably but, as software engineers, wouldn't user integration and usability be their end goal ? I mean, an internal engineer difficulty or a managing problem shouldn't be a penality on the user side or limit the client user in functionality... in my opinion here the sucess story about ICE is that's all in the level of integration not on the technology.
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Adrian was just trying to give those that are interested some insights into where Bifrost is today. Many Softimage users have asked us to know more and so we are giving those that want to know as much information as we can. However those that don't want to know, or care, about Bifrost can freely ignore our answers. It is your right to. But one point we do want to make clear: we have never said we will rebuild ICE in Maya. That is not our goal. Nor is our goal to rebuild Softimage. Our goal is to make Maya better by completely redesigning core areas: modeling, animation, rendering/lighting and effects to make something better. In pursuing that goal we will take great design concepts from Softimage, as well as new ones the teams create, and use them to build a better product. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 attachment: winmail.dat
Re[2]: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Maurice, fair enough, no harm in Bifröst being a different thing, or improving Maya, which it very much needs. What will be interesting, though: different in which way? What will Bifröst be capable of? (I know, vow of secrecy) Will it be a system that provides an equal or even higher level of flexiblity and versatility as ICE already does? In two years? If not - why ditch Softimage?? This just got another notch less understandable to me. Best, Eugen -- Originalnachricht -- Von: Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com An: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Gesendet: 24.03.2014 15:47:14 Betreff: RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Adrian was just trying to give those that are interested some insights into where Bifrost is today. Many Softimage users have asked us to know more and so we are giving those that want to know as much information as we can. However those that don’t want to know, or care, about Bifrost can freely ignore our answers. It is your right to. But one point we do want to make clear: we have never said we will rebuild ICE in Maya. That is not our goal. Nor is our goal to rebuild Softimage. Our goal is to make Maya better by completely redesigning core areas: modeling, animation, rendering/lighting and effects to make something better. In pursuing that goal we will take great design concepts from Softimage, as well as new ones the teams create, and use them to build a better product. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 --- Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv. http://www.avast.com
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Maurice, You've clearly stated here that AD is attempting to accomplish a complete redesign of modeling, animation, rendering, lighting, and effects in Maya. What is AD's commitment to a complete redesign of the Maya interface? -- Joey Ponthieux LaRC Information Technology Enhanced Services (LITES) Mymic Technical Services NASA Langley Research Center __ Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party. From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Maurice Patel Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 10:47 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Adrian was just trying to give those that are interested some insights into where Bifrost is today. Many Softimage users have asked us to know more and so we are giving those that want to know as much information as we can. However those that don't want to know, or care, about Bifrost can freely ignore our answers. It is your right to. But one point we do want to make clear: we have never said we will rebuild ICE in Maya. That is not our goal. Nor is our goal to rebuild Softimage. Our goal is to make Maya better by completely redesigning core areas: modeling, animation, rendering/lighting and effects to make something better. In pursuing that goal we will take great design concepts from Softimage, as well as new ones the teams create, and use them to build a better product. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134
Re: Re[2]: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
In my naive business head I imagine that AD's efforts could be well spent in creating some truly next generation software instead of polishing.. ahem... improving, what seems to be a bit long in the tooth already. I've had this broom for 10 years, it's had 5 new brushes and 4 new handles. AD seems to do some great RD work, couldn't they use that and take inspiration from what exists in all the new software around, pool all of the resources together and create something truly groundbreaking and more futureproof. Of course the overhead would be quite high in the short term, but the long term may prove rather good. If anyone is in the position to do it and feed it into their customer base surely it's AD. Also, do we know how many Houdini seats there are floating around? Just wondered if it's comparable to Soft as SideFX seem to run a whole company focussed around one piece of 3d software? Adam. _ Yoyo Digital Ltd. UK +44 (0) 7956 976 245 http://www.linkedin.com/in/adamseeleyuk https://vimeo.com/adamseeley From: Eugen Sares sof...@mail.sprit.org To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Sent: Monday, 24 March 2014, 15:44 Subject: Re[2]: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Maurice, fair enough, no harm in Bifröst being a different thing, or improving Maya, which it very much needs. What will be interesting, though: different in which way? What will Bifröst be capable of? (I know, vow of secrecy) Will it be a system that provides an equal or even higher level of flexiblity and versatility as ICE already does? In two years? If not - why ditch Softimage?? This just got another notch less understandable to me. Best, Eugen -- Originalnachricht -- Von: Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com An: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Gesendet: 24.03.2014 15:47:14 Betreff: RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Adrian was just trying to give those that are interested some insights into where Bifrost is today. Many Softimage users have asked us to know more and so we are giving those that want to know as much information as we can. However those that don’t want to know, or care, about Bifrost can freely ignore our answers. It is your right to. But one point we do want to make clear: we have never said we will rebuild ICE in Maya. That is not our goal. Nor is our goal to rebuild Softimage. Our goal is to make Maya better by completely redesigning core areas: modeling, animation, rendering/lighting and effects to make something better. In pursuing that goal we will take great design concepts from Softimage, as well as new ones the teams create, and use them to build a better product. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv.
Re: Re[2]: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
To be fair,Maurice has already answered this question in a previous thread Adam. They won't do that, as it would not be commercially viable, and the strain would sap resources from Maya's and max's development. paraphrasing: We are not a new up and coming provider with nothing to loose, we have a considerable client base and our loyalty must be to them On 24 March 2014 16:17, Adam Seeley adam_see...@yahoo.com wrote: In my naive business head I imagine that AD's efforts could be well spent in creating some truly next generation software instead of polishing.. ahem... improving, what seems to be a bit long in the tooth already. I've had this broom for 10 years, it's had 5 new brushes and 4 new handles. AD seems to do some great RD work, couldn't they use that and take inspiration from what exists in all the new software around, pool all of the resources together and create something truly groundbreaking and more futureproof. Of course the overhead would be quite high in the short term, but the long term may prove rather good. If anyone is in the position to do it and feed it into their customer base surely it's AD. Also, do we know how many Houdini seats there are floating around? Just wondered if it's comparable to Soft as SideFX seem to run a whole company focussed around one piece of 3d software? Adam. _ Yoyo Digital Ltd. *UK +44 (0) *7956 976 245 http://www.linkedin.com/in/adamseeleyuk https://vimeo.com/adamseeley -- *From:* Eugen Sares sof...@mail.sprit.org *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com *Sent:* Monday, 24 March 2014, 15:44 *Subject:* Re[2]: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Maurice, fair enough, no harm in Bifröst being a different thing, or improving Maya, which it very much needs. What will be interesting, though: different in which way? What will Bifröst be capable of? (I know, vow of secrecy) Will it be a system that provides an equal or even higher level of flexiblity and versatility as ICE already does? In two years? If not - why ditch Softimage?? This just got another notch less understandable to me. Best, Eugen -- Originalnachricht -- Von: Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com An: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Gesendet: 24.03.2014 15:47:14 Betreff: RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Adrian was just trying to give those that are interested some insights into where Bifrost is today. Many Softimage users have asked us to know more and so we are giving those that want to know as much information as we can. However those that don't want to know, or care, about Bifrost can freely ignore our answers. It is your right to. But one point we do want to make clear: we have never said we will rebuild ICE in Maya. That is not our goal. Nor is our goal to rebuild Softimage. Our goal is to make Maya better by completely redesigning core areas: modeling, animation, rendering/lighting and effects to make something better. In pursuing that goal we will take great design concepts from Softimage, as well as new ones the teams create, and use them to build a better product. Maurice *Maurice Patel* Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 -- http://www.avast.com/ Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirushttp://www.avast.com/Schutz ist aktiv.
Re: Re[2]: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Fair enough,I have skimmed past a few emails over the past couple of weeks. Does anyone know how many Houdini seats there are around though? Adam. _ http://www.linkedin.com/in/adamseeleyuk https://vimeo.com/adamseeley From: Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com To: Adam Seeley adam_see...@yahoo.com; softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Sent: Monday, 24 March 2014, 16:54 Subject: Re: Re[2]: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? To be fair,Maurice has already answered this question in a previous thread Adam. They won't do that, as it would not be commercially viable, and the strain would sap resources from Maya's and max's development. paraphrasing: We are not a new up and coming provider with nothing to loose, we have a considerable client base and our loyalty must be to them On 24 March 2014 16:17, Adam Seeley adam_see...@yahoo.com wrote: In my naive business head I imagine that AD's efforts could be well spent in creating some truly next generation software instead of polishing.. ahem... improving, what seems to be a bit long in the tooth already. I've had this broom for 10 years, it's had 5 new brushes and 4 new handles. AD seems to do some great RD work, couldn't they use that and take inspiration from what exists in all the new software around, pool all of the resources together and create something truly groundbreaking and more futureproof. Of course the overhead would be quite high in the short term, but the long term may prove rather good. If anyone is in the position to do it and feed it into their customer base surely it's AD. Also, do we know how many Houdini seats there are floating around? Just wondered if it's comparable to Soft as SideFX seem to run a whole company focussed around one piece of 3d software? Adam. _ Yoyo Digital Ltd. UK +44 (0) 7956 976 245 http://www.linkedin.com/in/adamseeleyuk https://vimeo.com/adamseeley From: Eugen Sares sof...@mail.sprit.org To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Sent: Monday, 24 March 2014, 15:44 Subject: Re[2]: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Maurice, fair enough, no harm in Bifröst being a different thing, or improving Maya, which it very much needs. What will be interesting, though: different in which way? What will Bifröst be capable of? (I know, vow of secrecy) Will it be a system that provides an equal or even higher level of flexiblity and versatility as ICE already does? In two years? If not - why ditch Softimage?? This just got another notch less understandable to me. Best, Eugen -- Originalnachricht -- Von: Maurice Patel maurice.pa...@autodesk.com An: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Gesendet: 24.03.2014 15:47:14 Betreff: RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Adrian was just trying to give those that are interested some insights into where Bifrost is today. Many Softimage users have asked us to know more and so we are giving those that want to know as much information as we can. However those that don’t want to know, or care, about Bifrost can freely ignore our answers. It is your right to. But one point we do want to make clear: we have never said we will rebuild ICE in Maya. That is not our goal. Nor is our goal to rebuild Softimage. Our goal is to make Maya better by completely redesigning core areas: modeling, animation, rendering/lighting and effects to make something better. In pursuing that goal we will take great design concepts from Softimage, as well as new ones the teams create, and use them to build a better product. Maurice Maurice Patel Autodesk : Tél: 514 954-7134 Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv.
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Adrian, we are talking years (5?) of development here to get a full solid stable platform… don't you think it is quite a lot to ask to someone that already has almost all of that? Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.com On 21 Mar 2014, at 17:41, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.ukhttp://glassworks.co.uk/ (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian winmail.dat
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Or, to put it more bluntly, we already waited and invested those 5 years. It is now expected to do it all over again. *Cui bono*? On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:22 PM, Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.com wrote: Adrian, we are talking years (5?) of development here to get a full solid stable platform... don't you think it is quite a lot to ask to someone that already has almost all of that? Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.com On 21 Mar 2014, at 17:41, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread ( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk http://glassworks.co.uk/ (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian winmail.dat
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
If they are already talking about it being a stand alone engine that can plug into Maya AND Max, how exactly would it be able to deal with: - building custom deformers (thereby reading and driving polygon mesh point positions) - manipulating shape data (-- reading and driving the per-point shape vectors per polygon mesh point position) - manipulating UV's - manipulating kinematic transforms Would there be two context libraries ? one for Maya and one for Max ? cause that sounds like an awful amount of work, not that there are any plans to port to max i would not think. Plus you often hear that phrase, Maya is aware of bitfrost but bitfrost is unaware of Maya, it doesn't know where the data it crunches is going. At any rate for now its a FLIP solver, next year will it be a FLIP solver with a Node based interface ? and a year and X$ subscription dollars after that? what will it be ? It is going to take at least 3 years for it to be something other then what we can expect. On 23 March 2014 17:21, Aleksa Orlov aleksaor...@gmail.com wrote: Or, to put it more bluntly, we already waited and invested those 5 years. It is now expected to do it all over again. *Cui bono*? On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 5:22 PM, Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.com wrote: Adrian, we are talking years (5?) of development here to get a full solid stable platform... don't you think it is quite a lot to ask to someone that already has almost all of that? Jordi Bares jordiba...@gmail.com On 21 Mar 2014, at 17:41, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread ( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.ukhttp://glassworks.co.uk/ (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Same here, I will not count on future promises by AutodesK; Their last promise one year ago: we won't kill XSI. Yeah right On 2014-03-21 22:03, Ognjen Vukovic wrote: I think you are absolutely correct on this.
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Hey Adrian, this is some great info here. and makes me suddenly feel spmehow better ;-) maybe in two/three years time, when Soft slowly falls back (just due to no further development) BiFrost will be in a state where it can take over...? (wishful thinking) If I read between the lines I feel there is hope that BiFrost is not 'just' a fluid simulation system and can be used for far more. Exactly what I personally (and many others) love about ICE. It is (contrary to past Autodesk-PR) NOT just a particle-simulation-system, but a swiss army tool which can manipulate almost every aspect of data in my scene/objects and build, create, deform, etc... ie at the moment I build shapes/objects made out of dominos. All procedurally build in ICE. I made different compounds to stack and pile dominoes in different ways and methods. And if the objects I have to create (and even the domino) change (as usual in commercials..) it is all instantly updated. Only right at the end I add a Sim node and the whole things collapses... (obviously controlled with nulls, forces, etc...) The Sim is basically the last 5% of what I use ICE for. If I can do stuff like this in BiFrost in the future I'm a happy camper. Right now the only other software capable of that would be Houdini... I'll keep an eye on BiFrost ;-) Cheers, Juan On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:09 AM, joshxsi josh...@gmail.com wrote: Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools, IK solvers etc) Thanks again for the information as well. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, definitely giving them a chance! If they turn Maya/Bifrost into something great that can give me back what I just lost, believe me I will be one happy guy. On 3/20/2014 6:29 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
I think we can see there's some reason to look into Bifrost, but I also have a nagging feeling it's simply never going to achieve the same level of functionality as ICE, for the very reason ICE is essentially being shut down. ICE does what it does and is so much more than a particle system, because it is built into the very core of Softimage. To attempt to make Bifrost 'future proof' they are deliberately *not* building it into the core of Maya, thus allowing for the potential for it to be standalone and / or plugged into other software / platforms at a later date. But by approaching it in this way, it'll only ever be a bolt on, that surely can never achieve that level of flexibility that we have with ICE at the heart of Softimage. It feels that the very thing that makes ICE such an amazing tool is actually causing it's downfall, and is the reason Bifrost can never replace it. And that totally sucks! On 21 March 2014 10:29, Juan Brockhaus juanxsil...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Adrian, this is some great info here. and makes me suddenly feel spmehow better ;-) maybe in two/three years time, when Soft slowly falls back (just due to no further development) BiFrost will be in a state where it can take over...? (wishful thinking) If I read between the lines I feel there is hope that BiFrost is not 'just' a fluid simulation system and can be used for far more. Exactly what I personally (and many others) love about ICE. It is (contrary to past Autodesk-PR) NOT just a particle-simulation-system, but a swiss army tool which can manipulate almost every aspect of data in my scene/objects and build, create, deform, etc... ie at the moment I build shapes/objects made out of dominos. All procedurally build in ICE. I made different compounds to stack and pile dominoes in different ways and methods. And if the objects I have to create (and even the domino) change (as usual in commercials..) it is all instantly updated. Only right at the end I add a Sim node and the whole things collapses... (obviously controlled with nulls, forces, etc...) The Sim is basically the last 5% of what I use ICE for. If I can do stuff like this in BiFrost in the future I'm a happy camper. Right now the only other software capable of that would be Houdini... I'll keep an eye on BiFrost ;-) Cheers, Juan On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:09 AM, joshxsi josh...@gmail.com wrote: Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools, IK solvers etc) Thanks again for the information as well. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, definitely giving them a chance! If they turn Maya/Bifrost into something great that can give me back what I just lost, believe me I will be one happy guy. On 3/20/2014 6:29 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Perhaps Bifrost is the foundation of the next-gen package from Autodesk……? Just a thought. Jean-Louis On 21 Mar 2014, at 14:52, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: But by approaching it in this way, it'll only ever be a bolt on, that surely can never achieve that level of flexibility that we have with ICE at the heart of Softimage.
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
I apologize that not talking about maya. let's recall the old article. http://frenchdog.wordpress.com/2009/09/12/ice-vs-vop/ 2014-03-21 17:52 GMT+04:00 Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com: I think we can see there's some reason to look into Bifrost, but I also have a nagging feeling it's simply never going to achieve the same level of functionality as ICE, for the very reason ICE is essentially being shut down. ICE does what it does and is so much more than a particle system, because it is built into the very core of Softimage. To attempt to make Bifrost 'future proof' they are deliberately *not* building it into the core of Maya, thus allowing for the potential for it to be standalone and / or plugged into other software / platforms at a later date. But by approaching it in this way, it'll only ever be a bolt on, that surely can never achieve that level of flexibility that we have with ICE at the heart of Softimage. It feels that the very thing that makes ICE such an amazing tool is actually causing it's downfall, and is the reason Bifrost can never replace it. And that totally sucks! On 21 March 2014 10:29, Juan Brockhaus juanxsil...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Adrian, this is some great info here. and makes me suddenly feel spmehow better ;-) maybe in two/three years time, when Soft slowly falls back (just due to no further development) BiFrost will be in a state where it can take over...? (wishful thinking) If I read between the lines I feel there is hope that BiFrost is not 'just' a fluid simulation system and can be used for far more. Exactly what I personally (and many others) love about ICE. It is (contrary to past Autodesk-PR) NOT just a particle-simulation-system, but a swiss army tool which can manipulate almost every aspect of data in my scene/objects and build, create, deform, etc... ie at the moment I build shapes/objects made out of dominos. All procedurally build in ICE. I made different compounds to stack and pile dominoes in different ways and methods. And if the objects I have to create (and even the domino) change (as usual in commercials..) it is all instantly updated. Only right at the end I add a Sim node and the whole things collapses... (obviously controlled with nulls, forces, etc...) The Sim is basically the last 5% of what I use ICE for. If I can do stuff like this in BiFrost in the future I'm a happy camper. Right now the only other software capable of that would be Houdini... I'll keep an eye on BiFrost ;-) Cheers, Juan On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:09 AM, joshxsi josh...@gmail.com wrote: Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools, IK solvers etc) Thanks again for the information as well. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, definitely giving them a chance! If they turn Maya/Bifrost into something great that can give me back what I just lost, believe me I will be one happy guy. On 3/20/2014 6:29 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk -- Евграфов Максим.(Summatr) https://vimeo.com/user3098735/videos --- Хорошего Вам настроения !!! :-)
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Yes, this first release is liquids-focused (note: *fluids* are an entirely different solver, which we call the 'aero' - aerodynamic -- solver). Future releases could encompass more types of solvers (rigid, cloth, fluid, liquid, etc, all interacting). And from there, it would be amazing to see more procedural geometry generation, destruction and stuff like that. But we gotta take this one step at a time, and design the foundation carefully if we want to accommodate all that. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of joshxsi Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 6:09 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools, IK solvers etc) Thanks again for the information as well. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, definitely giving them a chance! If they turn Maya/Bifrost into something great that can give me back what I just lost, believe me I will be one happy guy. On 3/20/2014 6:29 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G attachment: winmail.dat
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
But just to be clear, everything you're talking about is essentially particles related? Feels like we're stepping back to ICE zero point five! On 21 March 2014 16:45, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Yes, this first release is liquids-focused (note: *fluids* are an entirely different solver, which we call the 'aero' - aerodynamic -- solver). Future releases could encompass more types of solvers (rigid, cloth, fluid, liquid, etc, all interacting). And from there, it would be amazing to see more procedural geometry generation, destruction and stuff like that. But we gotta take this one step at a time, and design the foundation carefully if we want to accommodate all that. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of joshxsi Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 6:09 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools, IK solvers etc) Thanks again for the information as well. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, definitely giving them a chance! If they turn Maya/Bifrost into something great that can give me back what I just lost, believe me I will be one happy guy. On 3/20/2014 6:29 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 6:52 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? I think we can see there's some reason to look into Bifrost, but I also have a nagging feeling it's simply never going to achieve the same level of functionality as ICE, for the very reason ICE is essentially being shut down. ICE does what it does and is so much more than a particle system, because it is built into the very core of Softimage. To attempt to make Bifrost 'future proof' they are deliberately *not* building it into the core of Maya, thus allowing for the potential for it to be standalone and / or plugged into other software / platforms at a later date. But by approaching it in this way, it'll only ever be a bolt on, that surely can never achieve that level of flexibility that we have with ICE at the heart of Softimage. It feels that the very thing that makes ICE such an amazing tool is actually causing it's downfall, and is the reason Bifrost can never replace it. And that totally sucks! On 21 March 2014 10:29, Juan Brockhaus juanxsil...@gmail.commailto:juanxsil...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Adrian, this is some great info here. and makes me suddenly feel spmehow better ;-) maybe in two/three years time, when Soft slowly falls back (just due to no further development) BiFrost will be in a state where it can take over...? (wishful thinking) If I read between the lines I feel there is hope that BiFrost is not 'just' a fluid simulation system and can be used for far more. Exactly what I personally (and many others) love about ICE. It is (contrary to past Autodesk-PR) NOT just a particle-simulation-system, but a swiss army tool which can manipulate almost every aspect of data in my scene/objects and build, create, deform, etc... ie at the moment I build shapes/objects made out of dominos. All procedurally build in ICE. I made different compounds to stack and pile dominoes in different ways and methods. And if the objects I have to create (and even the domino) change (as usual in commercials..) it is all instantly updated. Only right at the end I add a Sim node and the whole things collapses... (obviously controlled with nulls, forces, etc...) The Sim is basically the last 5% of what I use ICE for. If I can do stuff like this in BiFrost in the future I'm a happy camper. Right now the only other software capable of that would be Houdini... I'll keep an eye on BiFrost ;-) Cheers, Juan On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:09 AM, joshxsi josh...@gmail.commailto:josh...@gmail.com wrote: Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools, IK solvers etc) Thanks again for the information as well. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, definitely giving them a chance! If they turn Maya/Bifrost into something great that can give me back what I just lost, believe me I will be one happy guy. On 3/20/2014 6:29 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Hi Adrian What about access to geometry topology, blend shapes, weights, raycast, etc, amongst other nodes to enable control over deformations? On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.comwrote: Yes, this first release is liquids-focused (note: *fluids* are an entirely different solver, which we call the 'aero' - aerodynamic -- solver). Future releases could encompass more types of solvers (rigid, cloth, fluid, liquid, etc, all interacting). And from there, it would be amazing to see more procedural geometry generation, destruction and stuff like that. But we gotta take this one step at a time, and design the foundation carefully if we want to accommodate all that. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of joshxsi Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 6:09 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools, IK solvers etc) Thanks again for the information as well. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, definitely giving them a chance! If they turn Maya/Bifrost into something great that can give me back what I just lost, believe me I will be one happy guy. On 3/20/2014 6:29 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Well, yes and no. When you see particles in Bifrost, what you're looking at are FLIP particles, which are part of how the FLIP solver works. My meager brain understands it as the particles contain the velocity data, which generate a level-set, which generate voxels, and in turn the voxels affect the velocity data. There's people on my team much smarter than me who can explain this better. So you can view Bifrost sims as particles or voxels, but you're not looking at a particle sim, per se. When I talk about mist, foam and spray, those are generated from the Bifrost sim itself, as secondary sims. Now those are particles, but they're Bifrost particles, not Maya particles, and there's a big difference. Bifrost particles have been developed to utilize the new functionality in Viewport 2.0, which is part of the OGS project at Autodesk (One Graphics Systemhttp://adndevblog.typepad.com/manufacturing/2012/05/using-intel-threading-building-blocks-tbb-in-autodesk-products.html). This means you can display tens of millions of particles in the viewport interactively, unlike most other applications (depending on your graphics card, obviously). But as of now, no, Bifrost cannot perform particle simulations and control them with fields/forces/collisions as you would in the classic sense. Not yet, at least. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:53 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? But just to be clear, everything you're talking about is essentially particles related? Feels like we're stepping back to ICE zero point five! On 21 March 2014 16:45, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.commailto:adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Yes, this first release is liquids-focused (note: *fluids* are an entirely different solver, which we call the 'aero' - aerodynamic -- solver). Future releases could encompass more types of solvers (rigid, cloth, fluid, liquid, etc, all interacting). And from there, it would be amazing to see more procedural geometry generation, destruction and stuff like that. But we gotta take this one step at a time, and design the foundation carefully if we want to accommodate all that. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of joshxsi Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 6:09 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools, IK solvers etc) Thanks again for the information as well. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, definitely giving them a chance! If they turn Maya/Bifrost into something great that can give me back what I just lost, believe me I will be one happy guy. On 3/20/2014 6:29 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G -- [http://mintmotion.co.uk/img/mint.png] Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.ukhttp://www.mintmotion.co.uk attachment: winmail.dat
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Yes Exactly, that was my point. I'm totally understanding where Bifrost is coming from and I'm glad this is now becoming clear. This is what we need to understand, what the differences are going forward, what the long term direction is etc. What we can do and what we can't do, compared to ICE today. But by it's very nature, Bifrost will never be ICE. All the more reason it keep Softimage going for the mid-term, not 2 years. On 21 March 2014 16:53, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 6:52 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? I think we can see there's some reason to look into Bifrost, but I also have a nagging feeling it's simply never going to achieve the same level of functionality as ICE, for the very reason ICE is essentially being shut down. ICE does what it does and is so much more than a particle system, because it is built into the very core of Softimage. To attempt to make Bifrost 'future proof' they are deliberately *not* building it into the core of Maya, thus allowing for the potential for it to be standalone and / or plugged into other software / platforms at a later date. But by approaching it in this way, it'll only ever be a bolt on, that surely can never achieve that level of flexibility that we have with ICE at the heart of Softimage. It feels that the very thing that makes ICE such an amazing tool is actually causing it's downfall, and is the reason Bifrost can never replace it. And that totally sucks!
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Hi Adrian, first of all thanks for all your posts during the last days - they are highly appreciated. Now on to this topic: I think there's a tiny misunderstanding here... ICE essentially is able to manipulate any type of point data. This of course includes any kind of particle work, but also includes stuff like: - building custom deformers (thereby reading and driving polygon mesh point positions) - manipulating shape data (-- reading and driving the per-point shape vectors per polygon mesh point position) - manipulating UV's - manipulating kinematic transforms - So our question does not so much focus on the decoupled standalone design of Bifrost (which I personally find awesome). We are rather wondering if these kinds of manipulations are part of the Bifrost roadmap at all? Of course I can't speak for all Softimage users... But I personally have full confidence in Maya/Bifrost being able to perform in the realm if simulation work eventually. However I am utilizing ICE for all of the tasks above on a daily basis - and this is where I am worried the most what part of Maya might be a proper replacement for that. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Chatterjee [ Freelance Technical Director ] [ http://www.chatterjee.de ] [ https://vimeo.com/chatterjee ]
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Future releases could encompass more types of solvers (rigid, cloth, fluid, liquid, etc, all interacting). And from there, it would be amazing to see more procedural geometry generation, destruction and stuff like that. Just stepping away from solvers etc for a moment though: could I use Bifrost to do something un-simulated and simple like (for argument's sake) add the frame number onto the vertex y positions on an object if they're inside the volume of a polygon sphere? I know personally I'm not worried about the big effects, it's the small day-to-day 'simple' stuff which is where I'm concerned about not having ICE. On 21 March 2014 16:53, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 6:52 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? I think we can see there's some reason to look into Bifrost, but I also have a nagging feeling it's simply never going to achieve the same level of functionality as ICE, for the very reason ICE is essentially being shut down. ICE does what it does and is so much more than a particle system, because it is built into the very core of Softimage. To attempt to make Bifrost 'future proof' they are deliberately *not* building it into the core of Maya, thus allowing for the potential for it to be standalone and / or plugged into other software / platforms at a later date. But by approaching it in this way, it'll only ever be a bolt on, that surely can never achieve that level of flexibility that we have with ICE at the heart of Softimage. It feels that the very thing that makes ICE such an amazing tool is actually causing it's downfall, and is the reason Bifrost can never replace it. And that totally sucks! On 21 March 2014 10:29, Juan Brockhaus juanxsil...@gmail.commailto: juanxsil...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Adrian, this is some great info here. and makes me suddenly feel spmehow better ;-) maybe in two/three years time, when Soft slowly falls back (just due to no further development) BiFrost will be in a state where it can take over...? (wishful thinking) If I read between the lines I feel there is hope that BiFrost is not 'just' a fluid simulation system and can be used for far more. Exactly what I personally (and many others) love about ICE. It is (contrary to past Autodesk-PR) NOT just a particle-simulation-system, but a swiss army tool which can manipulate almost every aspect of data in my scene/objects and build, create, deform, etc... ie at the moment I build shapes/objects made out of dominos. All procedurally build in ICE. I made different compounds to stack and pile dominoes in different ways and methods. And if the objects I have to create (and even the domino) change (as usual in commercials..) it is all instantly updated. Only right at the end I add a Sim node and the whole things collapses... (obviously controlled with nulls, forces, etc...) The Sim is basically the last 5% of what I use ICE for. If I can do stuff like this in BiFrost in the future I'm a happy camper. Right now the only other software capable of that would be Houdini... I'll keep an eye on BiFrost ;-) Cheers, Juan On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:09 AM, joshxsi josh...@gmail.commailto: josh...@gmail.com wrote: Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools, IK solvers etc) Thanks again for the information as well. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.commailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, definitely giving them a chance
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
totally agree with Martin and Peter. that's exactly what I'm also very much interested in. will BiFrost be as versatile as ICE? ;-) Juan On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Peter Agg peter@googlemail.com wrote: Future releases could encompass more types of solvers (rigid, cloth, fluid, liquid, etc, all interacting). And from there, it would be amazing to see more procedural geometry generation, destruction and stuff like that. Just stepping away from solvers etc for a moment though: could I use Bifrost to do something un-simulated and simple like (for argument's sake) add the frame number onto the vertex y positions on an object if they're inside the volume of a polygon sphere? I know personally I'm not worried about the big effects, it's the small day-to-day 'simple' stuff which is where I'm concerned about not having ICE. On 21 March 2014 16:53, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 6:52 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? I think we can see there's some reason to look into Bifrost, but I also have a nagging feeling it's simply never going to achieve the same level of functionality as ICE, for the very reason ICE is essentially being shut down. ICE does what it does and is so much more than a particle system, because it is built into the very core of Softimage. To attempt to make Bifrost 'future proof' they are deliberately *not* building it into the core of Maya, thus allowing for the potential for it to be standalone and / or plugged into other software / platforms at a later date. But by approaching it in this way, it'll only ever be a bolt on, that surely can never achieve that level of flexibility that we have with ICE at the heart of Softimage. It feels that the very thing that makes ICE such an amazing tool is actually causing it's downfall, and is the reason Bifrost can never replace it. And that totally sucks! On 21 March 2014 10:29, Juan Brockhaus juanxsil...@gmail.commailto: juanxsil...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Adrian, this is some great info here. and makes me suddenly feel spmehow better ;-) maybe in two/three years time, when Soft slowly falls back (just due to no further development) BiFrost will be in a state where it can take over...? (wishful thinking) If I read between the lines I feel there is hope that BiFrost is not 'just' a fluid simulation system and can be used for far more. Exactly what I personally (and many others) love about ICE. It is (contrary to past Autodesk-PR) NOT just a particle-simulation-system, but a swiss army tool which can manipulate almost every aspect of data in my scene/objects and build, create, deform, etc... ie at the moment I build shapes/objects made out of dominos. All procedurally build in ICE. I made different compounds to stack and pile dominoes in different ways and methods. And if the objects I have to create (and even the domino) change (as usual in commercials..) it is all instantly updated. Only right at the end I add a Sim node and the whole things collapses... (obviously controlled with nulls, forces, etc...) The Sim is basically the last 5% of what I use ICE for. If I can do stuff like this in BiFrost in the future I'm a happy camper. Right now the only other software capable of that would be Houdini... I'll keep an eye on BiFrost ;-) Cheers, Juan On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:09 AM, joshxsi josh...@gmail.commailto: josh...@gmail.com wrote: Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
same here with Peter's comments. Ice gets used throughout my jobs like glue, or really simple procedural tools. Sharing data between objects etc. Andi ... http://www.hackneyeffects.com/https://vimeo.com/user4174293http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andi-farhall/b/496/b21 http://www.flickr.com/photos/lord_hackney/ http://spylon.tumblr.com/ This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Hackney Effects Ltd.If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any action based upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone.Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 17:16:14 + Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? From: juanxsil...@gmail.com To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com totally agree with Martin and Peter. that's exactly what I'm also very much interested in. will BiFrost be as versatile as ICE? ;-) Juan On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Peter Agg peter@googlemail.com wrote: Future releases could encompass more types of solvers (rigid, cloth, fluid, liquid, etc, all interacting). And from there, it would be amazing to see more procedural geometry generation, destruction and stuff like that. Just stepping away from solvers etc for a moment though: could I use Bifrost to do something un-simulated and simple like (for argument's sake) add the frame number onto the vertex y positions on an object if they're inside the volume of a polygon sphere? I know personally I'm not worried about the big effects, it's the small day-to-day 'simple' stuff which is where I'm concerned about not having ICE. On 21 March 2014 16:53, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 6:52 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? I think we can see there's some reason to look into Bifrost, but I also have a nagging feeling it's simply never going to achieve the same level of functionality as ICE, for the very reason ICE is essentially being shut down. ICE does what it does and is so much more than a particle system, because it is built into the very core of Softimage. To attempt to make Bifrost 'future proof' they are deliberately *not* building it into the core of Maya, thus allowing for the potential for it to be standalone and / or plugged into other software / platforms at a later date. But by approaching it in this way, it'll only ever be a bolt on, that surely can never achieve that level of flexibility that we have with ICE at the heart of Softimage. It feels that the very thing that makes ICE such an amazing tool is actually causing it's downfall, and is the reason Bifrost can never replace it. And that totally sucks! On 21 March 2014 10:29, Juan Brockhaus juanxsil...@gmail.commailto:juanxsil...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Adrian, this is some great info here. and makes me suddenly feel spmehow better ;-) maybe in two/three years time, when Soft slowly falls back (just due to no further development) BiFrost will be in a state where it can take over...? (wishful thinking) If I read between the lines I feel there is hope that BiFrost is not 'just' a fluid simulation system and can be used for far more. Exactly what I personally (and many others) love about ICE. It is (contrary to past Autodesk-PR) NOT just a particle-simulation-system, but a swiss army tool which can manipulate almost every aspect of data in my scene/objects and build, create, deform, etc... ie at the moment I build shapes/objects made out of dominos. All procedurally build in ICE. I made different compounds to stack and pile dominoes in different ways and methods. And if the objects I have
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE */so/* functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d GLASSWORKS 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.uk http://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
I agree with martin peter and juan Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d GLASSWORKS 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.uk http://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 17:16, Juan Brockhaus wrote: totally agree with Martin and Peter. that's exactly what I'm also very much interested in. will BiFrost be as versatile as ICE? ;-) Juan On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Peter Agg peter@googlemail.com mailto:peter@googlemail.com wrote: Future releases could encompass more types of solvers (rigid, cloth, fluid, liquid, etc, all interacting). And from there, it would be amazing to see more procedural geometry generation, destruction and stuff like that. Just stepping away from solvers etc for a moment though: could I use Bifrost to do something un-simulated and simple like (for argument's sake) add the frame number onto the vertex y positions on an object if they're inside the volume of a polygon sphere? I know personally I'm not worried about the big effects, it's the small day-to-day 'simple' stuff which is where I'm concerned about not having ICE. On 21 March 2014 16:53, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com mailto:adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 6:52 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? I think we can see there's some reason to look into Bifrost, but I also have a nagging feeling it's simply never going to achieve the same level of functionality as ICE, for the very reason ICE is essentially being shut down. ICE does what it does and is so much more than a particle system, because it is built into the very core of Softimage. To attempt to make Bifrost 'future proof' they are deliberately *not* building it into the core of Maya, thus allowing for the potential for it to be standalone and / or plugged into other software / platforms at a later date. But by approaching it in this way, it'll only ever be a bolt on, that surely can never achieve that level of flexibility that we have with ICE at the heart of Softimage. It feels that the very thing that makes ICE such an amazing tool is actually causing it's downfall, and is the reason Bifrost can never replace it. And that totally sucks! On 21 March 2014 10:29, Juan Brockhaus juanxsil...@gmail.com mailto:juanxsil...@gmail.commailto:juanxsil...@gmail.com mailto:juanxsil...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Adrian, this is some great info here. and makes me suddenly feel spmehow better ;-) maybe in two/three years time, when Soft slowly falls back (just due to no further development) BiFrost will be in a state where it can take over...? (wishful thinking) If I read between
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the ‚what uses is ICE?‘ thread (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.uk Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
damn, excuse my english.. it nearly weekend. Am 21.03.2014 um 18:38 schrieb Sebastian Kowalski l...@sekow.com: thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the ‚what uses is ICE?‘ thread (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.uk Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Can we perhaps avoid trying to pin Adrian up against a wall for a definitive answer? :) I know that people are wanting to know more, but we might not be able to comment on future stuff too much, for the reasons Maurice as mentioned before. Much of this discussion might be suited for the Beta forums. G From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Juan Brockhaus Sent: 21 March 2014 17:16 To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? totally agree with Martin and Peter. that's exactly what I'm also very much interested in. will BiFrost be as versatile as ICE? ;-) Juan On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Peter Agg peter@googlemail.commailto:peter@googlemail.com wrote: Future releases could encompass more types of solvers (rigid, cloth, fluid, liquid, etc, all interacting). And from there, it would be amazing to see more procedural geometry generation, destruction and stuff like that. Just stepping away from solvers etc for a moment though: could I use Bifrost to do something un-simulated and simple like (for argument's sake) add the frame number onto the vertex y positions on an object if they're inside the volume of a polygon sphere? I know personally I'm not worried about the big effects, it's the small day-to-day 'simple' stuff which is where I'm concerned about not having ICE. On 21 March 2014 16:53, Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.commailto:adrian.gra...@autodesk.com wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Chris Marshall Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 6:52 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? I think we can see there's some reason to look into Bifrost, but I also have a nagging feeling it's simply never going to achieve the same level of functionality as ICE, for the very reason ICE is essentially being shut down. ICE does what it does and is so much more than a particle system, because it is built into the very core of Softimage. To attempt to make Bifrost 'future proof' they are deliberately *not* building it into the core of Maya, thus allowing for the potential for it to be standalone and / or plugged into other software / platforms at a later date. But by approaching it in this way, it'll only ever be a bolt on, that surely can never achieve that level of flexibility that we have with ICE at the heart of Softimage. It feels that the very thing that makes ICE such an amazing tool is actually causing it's downfall, and is the reason Bifrost can never replace it. And that totally sucks! On 21 March 2014 10:29, Juan Brockhaus juanxsil...@gmail.commailto:juanxsil...@gmail.commailto:juanxsil...@gmail.commailto:juanxsil...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Adrian, this is some great info here. and makes me suddenly feel spmehow better ;-) maybe in two/three years time, when Soft slowly falls back (just due to no further development) BiFrost will be in a state where it can take over...? (wishful thinking) If I read between the lines I feel there is hope that BiFrost is not 'just' a fluid simulation system and can be used for far more. Exactly what I personally (and many others) love about ICE. It is (contrary to past Autodesk-PR) NOT just a particle-simulation-system, but a swiss army tool which can manipulate almost every aspect of data in my scene/objects and build, create, deform, etc... ie at the moment I build shapes/objects made out of dominos. All procedurally build in ICE. I made different compounds to stack and pile dominoes in different ways and methods. And if the objects I have to create (and even the domino) change (as usual in commercials..) it is all instantly updated. Only right at the end I add a Sim node and the whole things collapses... (obviously controlled with nulls, forces, etc...) The Sim is basically the last 5% of what I use ICE for. If I can do stuff like this in BiFrost in the future I'm a happy camper. Right now the only
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.ukhttp://glassworks.co.uk/ (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian attachment: winmail.dat
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
But with respect Graham, for those of us not on the Beta forums, what are we to do? On 21 March 2014 17:40, Graham Bell graham.b...@autodesk.com wrote: Can we perhaps avoid trying to pin Adrian up against a wall for a definitive answer? :) I know that people are wanting to know more, but we might not be able to comment on future stuff too much, for the reasons Maurice as mentioned before. Much of this discussion might be suited for the Beta forums. G
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
I (we) understand, it is just that we want to be heard. Finally. Everything sounds promising and exciting, just do not take too long. Am 21.03.2014 um 18:41 schrieb Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com: Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.ukhttp://glassworks.co.uk/ (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian winmail.dat
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Is that the Softimage Beta or Maya Beta? :) On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Sebastian Kowalski l...@sekow.com wrote: I (we) understand, it is just that we want to be heard. Finally. Everything sounds promising and exciting, just do not take too long. Am 21.03.2014 um 18:41 schrieb Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com: Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [ mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.comsoftimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread ( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.uk mailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk http://glassworks.co.uk/ (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian winmail.dat -- www.johnrichardsanchez.com
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
In the one side it is understandable that there are limits for revealing what future hole But also that limit makes bifrost like cat in the bag. People will loose ICE, for some vague promises of what bifrost will be. Sorry but vaporware... Imagine some other more known company announce that they are creating application to rule them all top of the to will do all this and that.. and promises... just you wait and see.. come pay subscription and you will see it will be great!!! SO you will flockand buy what? bag of promisses? DO you even see and understand what AD is doing? Selling promise of something that will work, not really like ICE but something... and don;t wanna reveal anything and people need to base their future plans and investments in promises? Honestly only smart thing woul dbe to stick to what is working now, yes ICE! and see after couple years of what bifrost is shaping into.. or i it will be around after couple years at all.. Bifrost future is bright.. click!? On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 6:53 PM, John Richard Sanchez youngupstar...@gmail.com wrote: Is that the Softimage Beta or Maya Beta? :) On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Sebastian Kowalski l...@sekow.comwrote: I (we) understand, it is just that we want to be heard. Finally. Everything sounds promising and exciting, just do not take too long. Am 21.03.2014 um 18:41 schrieb Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com : Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [ mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.comsoftimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread ( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.uk mailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk hear...@glassworks.co.uk: Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk http://glassworks.co.uk/ (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all OSs if you want it to be successful. Adrian winmail.dat -- www.johnrichardsanchez.com
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
I think you are absolutely correct on this. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Mirko Jankovic mirkoj.anima...@gmail.comwrote: In the one side it is understandable that there are limits for revealing what future hole But also that limit makes bifrost like cat in the bag. People will loose ICE, for some vague promises of what bifrost will be. Sorry but vaporware... Imagine some other more known company announce that they are creating application to rule them all top of the to will do all this and that.. and promises... just you wait and see.. come pay subscription and you will see it will be great!!! SO you will flockand buy what? bag of promisses? DO you even see and understand what AD is doing? Selling promise of something that will work, not really like ICE but something... and don;t wanna reveal anything and people need to base their future plans and investments in promises? Honestly only smart thing woul dbe to stick to what is working now, yes ICE! and see after couple years of what bifrost is shaping into.. or i it will be around after couple years at all.. Bifrost future is bright.. click!? On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 6:53 PM, John Richard Sanchez youngupstar...@gmail.com wrote: Is that the Softimage Beta or Maya Beta? :) On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Sebastian Kowalski l...@sekow.comwrote: I (we) understand, it is just that we want to be heard. Finally. Everything sounds promising and exciting, just do not take too long. Am 21.03.2014 um 18:41 schrieb Adrian Graham adrian.gra...@autodesk.com : Look, I can't comment exactly on where we're going with Bifrost, this is where I run into all sorts of SEC limitations and stuff. I could defer to ChrisV to answer those questions in a more official manner. Rest assured we're aware that ICE is more than just FX, more than particles and simulation, that it's a complete procedural workflow involving all kinds of data, throughout the package. Adrian From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [ mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.comsoftimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sebastian Kowalski Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:38 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? thats is my concern too. as much as I embrace a decoupling from maya, its how ICE is capable to talk to different scene elements that makes it so powerful. managing data until the very least work process at render time. and we are in full control. as beautiful big ass fluid sims look, its not what we day for day. please have a look on the 'what uses is ICE?' thread ( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/xsi_list/7aGyes8lBQE) thanks Am 21.03.2014 um 18:29 schrieb Alastair Hearsum hear...@glassworks.co.ukmailto:hear...@glassworks.co.ukhear...@glassworks.co.uk : Hi Adrian I'm no egg head so forgive the simplicity of my question. Would this platform agnostic scenario actively prevent any of the procedures and scenarios that we currently use ICE for? Is ICE so functional because its embedded in Softimage? Can we have the same functionality with a non embedded engine? Alastair Alastair Hearsum Head of 3d [GLASSWORKS] 33/34 Great Pulteney Street London W1F 9NP +44 (0)20 7434 1182 glassworks.co.ukhttp://www.glassworks.co.uk/ Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk http://glassworks.co.uk/ (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) Please consider the environment before you print this email. DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system. On 21/03/2014 16:53, Adrian Graham wrote: Ah, but may I respectfully point out that this was one of the problems with ICE, in that its complete and total integration into Softimage makes it difficult to engineer and manage, from a software and, unfortunately, a marketing point of view. Most modern software libraries are platform-agnostic, and this is what we're aiming for with Bifrost. The problem with ICE is that you had to use Softimage in order to gain access to it. Nothing against Softimage, just that you're limiting ICE's exposure to the industry at large. Would a renderer be more or less popular if it only worked with Maya, and not with Max or Houdini? No, it should be available on all applications, on all
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
I suspect this is because the money for AD is in getting everyone rental on the cloud. Just as they are doing with the CAD side of their userbase. So in few years when we're all on Maya 360 they can plug it into other software as well and rent in out separately. -Ronald On 3/21/2014 14:52, Chris Marshall wrote: I think we can see there's some reason to look into Bifrost, but I also have a nagging feeling it's simply never going to achieve the same level of functionality as ICE, for the very reason ICE is essentially being shut down. ICE does what it does and is so much more than a particle system, because it is built into the very core of Softimage. To attempt to make Bifrost 'future proof' they are deliberately *not* building it into the core of Maya, thus allowing for the potential for it to be standalone and / or plugged into other software / platforms at a later date. But by approaching it in this way, it'll only ever be a bolt on, that surely can never achieve that level of flexibility that we have with ICE at the heart of Softimage. It feels that the very thing that makes ICE such an amazing tool is actually causing it's downfall, and is the reason Bifrost can never replace it. And that totally sucks! On 21 March 2014 10:29, Juan Brockhaus juanxsil...@gmail.com mailto:juanxsil...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Adrian, this is some great info here. and makes me suddenly feel spmehow better ;-) maybe in two/three years time, when Soft slowly falls back (just due to no further development) BiFrost will be in a state where it can take over...? (wishful thinking) If I read between the lines I feel there is hope that BiFrost is not 'just' a fluid simulation system and can be used for far more. Exactly what I personally (and many others) love about ICE. It is (contrary to past Autodesk-PR) NOT just a particle-simulation-system, but a swiss army tool which can manipulate almost every aspect of data in my scene/objects and build, create, deform, etc... ie at the moment I build shapes/objects made out of dominos. All procedurally build in ICE. I made different compounds to stack and pile dominoes in different ways and methods. And if the objects I have to create (and even the domino) change (as usual in commercials..) it is all instantly updated. Only right at the end I add a Sim node and the whole things collapses... (obviously controlled with nulls, forces, etc...) The Sim is basically the last 5% of what I use ICE for. If I can do stuff like this in BiFrost in the future I'm a happy camper. Right now the only other software capable of that would be Houdini... I'll keep an eye on BiFrost ;-) Cheers, Juan On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:09 AM, joshxsi josh...@gmail.com mailto:josh...@gmail.com wrote: Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools, IK solvers etc) Thanks again for the information as well. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com mailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, definitely giving them a chance! If they turn Maya/Bifrost into something great that can give me back what I just lost, believe me I will be one happy guy. On 3/20/2014 6:29 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com mailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk http://www.mintmotion.co.uk
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Still wondering if we're any nearer getting an answer to this most obvious of questions? -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
If you want ICE functionality today, then just use ICE for as long as you can. If you want to expand even further then look at houdini. This is what we know today... On 20 March 2014 19:44, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: Still wondering if we're any nearer getting an answer to this most obvious of questions? -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Yes. I was opening up Maya again today. I have tried through out the years to get the rust of my maya skills to try and get Maya work and it is just not worth it. I will use XSI and learn C4D and dabble in Maya for 2 to 4 years (maybe 6) at which point I may just leave the biz. I will still be an artist but maybe not 3D. There is always editing / compositing/ etc. On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 6:41 PM, Cristobal Infante cgc...@gmail.com wrote: If you want ICE functionality today, then just use ICE for as long as you can. If you want to expand even further then look at houdini. This is what we know today... On 20 March 2014 19:44, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: Still wondering if we're any nearer getting an answer to this most obvious of questions? -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk -- www.johnrichardsanchez.com
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
I suppose it's time I chime in to this thread, and this discussion board. I work at Autodesk as the Product Designer for Bifrost (among other FX-related components in Maya), working with Marcus Nordenstam. I'm not entirely sure where to start, as there's a ton of activity surrounding the introduction of Bifrost in Maya 2015 and the EOL of Softimage. I've been lurking on this board for a couple of weeks, so I'm only familiar with the discussions (and rants) that have happened since then. Let's start here: because Bifrost is a new and complex framework we're designing from the ground-up, we're releasing it in stages. We've been referring to these as the 'generalist', 'FX TD' and 'developer' releases. Maya 2015 is essentially the 'generalist' release, meaning it will be most useful for people who do not need to gain access to the underlying graph and can live with a fairly simplified workflow to get liquid FX jobs done. This doesn't mean that other users shouldn't try it out, just that they may feel blocked by the current limitations. But note, this will not be, in any way, an equivalent to ICE. The next release, the 'FX TD' release, will expose the procedural graph and allow much more control over the solvers and order of operation, just what you would expect in an ICE-like procedural workflow. The difference here (and this is where Marcus can chime in), is that we're designing Bifrost to be a visual programming language, where you will be able to dive down into any compound to reveal the basic programmatic or mathematical nodes that drive higher-level functionality. This is very much like ICE. Here's the difference, however: these graphs are JIT-compiled for efficiency, then run as virtual executables by the Bifrost Computation Engine. More on that in another thread. The third (and by no means final) release we call the 'developer' release, where you'll be able to write your own custom C++ nodes and utilize the full Bifrost API (C++ and possibly Python). You can then insert these nodes into your graph, call them as rendertime procedurals or whatever. So are we simply tacking on a half-baked feature onto Maya? Absolutely not. Are we going to stop Bifrost development after Maya 2015? No way, there's SO much stuff we're working on, but there's obviously only so many people we can put on the team, even for a huge company like Autodesk. And I know this sounds like a cliche, but we're really trying to do things right in designing a future-proof framework. We spent a lot of time figuring out how to decouple Bifrost from Maya; to pass data between the two processes and not have Bifrost dependent on Maya, but rather Maya be a client to Bifrost. This means that we'll eventually be able to run Bifrost as a standalone app, on the cloud, on a farm, on your gaming system, iPad, Atari 2600, etc. If you feel this first release of Bifrost to be limited in functionality, consider that we had to postpone development on certain features in order to deliver a solid usable, basic (if simplified) initial workflow. We'd have much rather done this than pushed an unfinished solution through the pipe to increase the number of bullet points on the back of the box. We're just laying the foundation at this point. Mist, foam and spray are some things you may have heard that are indeed missing from Bifrost in Maya 2015. We had to choose between developing that or focusing on things like threading, furthering development on the FLIP solver or memory management, all of which take precedence over furthering the implementation of Bifrost particles. We've also had the opportunity to design the Bifrost codebase from the ground-up, utilizing modern libraries that Maya or Softimage would otherwise not have access to. This is why everything is so well threaded in Bifrost. I have to shamelessly disclose that I have a dual-CPU machine with 32 cores, and to see (and hear) them all humming at 100% is a marvelous thing. That, and Maya is still interactive and fluid whilst computation takes place in the background. This is totally new for Maya, but I know a other apps can do this. So, is Bifrost ready to take the place of Softimage ICE? No, not yet. In Maya 2015, Bifrost is a procedural FX framework with a FLIP liquid solver, based on the technology seen in Naiad. But as time goes by, Bifrost can be involved in more and more components of Maya, and give users access to graphs for anything they do in Maya, not unlike how ICE works. As you can guess, it sounds like a hell of a lot of work, and would involve all areas of design and development. The next step is opening the graph, which means we have to improve the Node Editor and devise new workflows to deal with, for example, compounds and ports. Who's on the Bifrost development team? I probably shouldn't name names, but there's one of the original authors of the FLIP solver (Bridson), liquid sim supergenius (Nielsen), some of the
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Hi Adrian Thanks for chiming in. I have no issues with bifrost and I do believe that its essential that it is kept separate from Maya. I like the 3 stages as they make practical sense. Only one thing which really wasnt in your control is that Softimage should have only been retired once stage 3 was out ;) Good luck ;) From: Adrian Graham [adrian.gra...@autodesk.com] Sent: 21 March 2014 01:30 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? I suppose it's time I chime in to this thread, and this discussion board. I work at Autodesk as the Product Designer for Bifrost (among other FX-related components in Maya), working with Marcus Nordenstam. I'm not entirely sure where to start, as there's a ton of activity surrounding the introduction of Bifrost in Maya 2015 and the EOL of Softimage. I’ve been lurking on this board for a couple of weeks, so I’m only familiar with the discussions (and rants) that have happened since then. Let’s start here: because Bifrost is a new and complex framework we're designing from the ground-up, we're releasing it in stages. We've been referring to these as the 'generalist', 'FX TD' and 'developer' releases. Maya 2015 is essentially the 'generalist' release, meaning it will be most useful for people who do not need to gain access to the underlying graph and can live with a fairly simplified workflow to get liquid FX jobs done. This doesn't mean that other users shouldn't try it out, just that they may feel blocked by the current limitations. But note, this will not be, in any way, an equivalent to ICE. The next release, the 'FX TD' release, will expose the procedural graph and allow much more control over the solvers and order of operation, just what you would expect in an ICE-like procedural workflow. The difference here (and this is where Marcus can chime in), is that we're designing Bifrost to be a visual programming language, where you will be able to dive down into any compound to reveal the basic programmatic or mathematical nodes that drive higher-level functionality. This is very much like ICE. Here’s the difference, however: these graphs are JIT-compiled for efficiency, then run as virtual executables by the Bifrost Computation Engine. More on that in another thread. The third (and by no means final) release we call the 'developer' release, where you'll be able to write your own custom C++ nodes and utilize the full Bifrost API (C++ and possibly Python). You can then insert these nodes into your graph, call them as rendertime procedurals or whatever. So are we simply tacking on a half-baked feature onto Maya? Absolutely not. Are we going to stop Bifrost development after Maya 2015? No way, there's SO much stuff we're working on, but there's obviously only so many people we can put on the team, even for a huge company like Autodesk. And I know this sounds like a cliche, but we're really trying to do things right in designing a future-proof framework. We spent a lot of time figuring out how to decouple Bifrost from Maya; to pass data between the two processes and not have Bifrost dependent on Maya, but rather Maya be a client to Bifrost. This means that we'll eventually be able to run Bifrost as a standalone app, on the cloud, on a farm, on your gaming system, iPad, Atari 2600, etc. If you feel this first release of Bifrost to be limited in functionality, consider that we had to postpone development on certain features in order to deliver a solid usable, basic (if simplified) initial workflow. We'd have much rather done this than pushed an unfinished solution through the pipe to increase the number of bullet points on the back of the box. We’re just laying the foundation at this point. Mist, foam and spray are some things you may have heard that are indeed missing from Bifrost in Maya 2015. We had to choose between developing that or focusing on things like threading, furthering development on the FLIP solver or memory management, all of which take precedence over furthering the implementation of Bifrost particles. We've also had the opportunity to design the Bifrost codebase from the ground-up, utilizing modern libraries that Maya or Softimage would otherwise not have access to. This is why everything is so well threaded in Bifrost. I have to shamelessly disclose that I have a dual-CPU machine with 32 cores, and to see (and hear) them all humming at 100% is a marvelous thing. That, and Maya is still interactive and fluid whilst computation takes place in the background. This is totally new for Maya, but I know a other apps can do this. So, is Bifrost ready to take the place of Softimage ICE? No, not yet. In Maya 2015, Bifrost is a procedural FX framework with a FLIP liquid solver, based on the technology seen in Naiad. But as time goes by, Bifrost can be involved in more and more components of Maya, and give users
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G On 3/20/2014 5:30 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: I suppose it's time I chime in to this thread, and this discussion board. I work at Autodesk as the Product Designer for Bifrost (among other FX-related components in Maya), working with Marcus Nordenstam. I'm not entirely sure where to start, as there's a ton of activity surrounding the introduction of Bifrost in Maya 2015 and the EOL of Softimage. I've been lurking on this board for a couple of weeks, so I'm only familiar with the discussions (and rants) that have happened since then. Let's start here: because Bifrost is a new and complex framework we're designing from the ground-up, we're releasing it in stages. We've been referring to these as the 'generalist', 'FX TD' and 'developer' releases. Maya 2015 is essentially the 'generalist' release, meaning it will be most useful for people who do not need to gain access to the underlying graph and can live with a fairly simplified workflow to get liquid FX jobs done. This doesn't mean that other users shouldn't try it out, just that they may feel blocked by the current limitations. But note, this will not be, in any way, an equivalent to ICE. The next release, the 'FX TD' release, will expose the procedural graph and allow much more control over the solvers and order of operation, just what you would expect in an ICE-like procedural workflow. The difference here (and this is where Marcus can chime in), is that we're designing Bifrost to be a visual programming language, where you will be able to dive down into any compound to reveal the basic programmatic or mathematical nodes that drive higher-level functionality. This is very much like ICE. Here's the difference, however: these graphs are JIT-compiled for efficiency, then run as virtual executables by the Bifrost Computation Engine. More on that in another thread. The third (and by no means final) release we call the 'developer' release, where you'll be able to write your own custom C++ nodes and utilize the full Bifrost API (C++ and possibly Python). You can then insert these nodes into your graph, call them as rendertime procedurals or whatever. So are we simply tacking on a half-baked feature onto Maya? Absolutely not. Are we going to stop Bifrost development after Maya 2015? No way, there's SO much stuff we're working on, but there's obviously only so many people we can put on the team, even for a huge company like Autodesk. And I know this sounds like a cliche, but we're really trying to do things right in designing a future-proof framework. We spent a lot of time figuring out how to decouple Bifrost from Maya; to pass data between the two processes and not have Bifrost dependent on Maya, but rather Maya be a client to Bifrost. This means that we'll eventually be able to run Bifrost as a standalone app, on the cloud, on a farm, on your gaming system, iPad, Atari 2600, etc. If you feel this first release of Bifrost to be limited in functionality, consider that we had to postpone development on certain features in order to deliver a solid usable, basic (if simplified) initial workflow. We'd have much rather done this than pushed an unfinished solution through the pipe to increase the number of bullet points on the back of the box. We're just laying the foundation at this point. Mist, foam and spray are some things you may have heard that are indeed missing from Bifrost in Maya 2015. We had to choose between developing that or focusing on things like threading, furthering development on the FLIP solver or memory management, all of which take precedence over furthering the implementation of Bifrost particles. We've also had the opportunity to design the Bifrost codebase from the ground-up, utilizing modern libraries that Maya or Softimage would otherwise not have access to. This is why everything is so well threaded in Bifrost. I have to shamelessly disclose that I have a dual-CPU machine with 32 cores, and to see (and hear) them all humming at 100% is a marvelous thing. That, and Maya is still interactive and fluid whilst computation takes place in the background. This is totally new for Maya, but I know a other apps can do this. So, is Bifrost ready to take the place of Softimage ICE? No, not yet. In Maya 2015, Bifrost is a procedural FX framework with a FLIP liquid solver, based on the technology seen in Naiad. But as time goes by, Bifrost can be involved in more and more components of Maya, and give users access to graphs for anything they do in Maya, not unlike how ICE works. As you can guess, it sounds like a hell of a lot of work, and would involve all areas of design and development. The next step is opening the graph, which means we have to improve the Node Editor and devise new workflows to deal with, for
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Adrian, well written and a lot of facts information, thank you! the team and the project sounds amazing and exciting stuff indeed. am happy that you are happy, its refreshing indeed. so welcome! first question: you mention it can run on clouds, consoles , Atari 2600's will that list include softimage? :D 2nd question, is of course, when is an estimate for stage 2 ICE like node editing. is that likely to be a service pack in current Maya or a 2016. or? again. good news. for a change!
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Perhaps, but it is a general enough roadmap that has already been discussed in a few channels (if unofficial). Also, the 'generalist' release is Maya 2015, so no surprises there. -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of David Gallagher Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:17 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G On 3/20/2014 5:30 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: I suppose it's time I chime in to this thread, and this discussion board. I work at Autodesk as the Product Designer for Bifrost (among other FX-related components in Maya), working with Marcus Nordenstam. I'm not entirely sure where to start, as there's a ton of activity surrounding the introduction of Bifrost in Maya 2015 and the EOL of Softimage. I've been lurking on this board for a couple of weeks, so I'm only familiar with the discussions (and rants) that have happened since then. Let's start here: because Bifrost is a new and complex framework we're designing from the ground-up, we're releasing it in stages. We've been referring to these as the 'generalist', 'FX TD' and 'developer' releases. Maya 2015 is essentially the 'generalist' release, meaning it will be most useful for people who do not need to gain access to the underlying graph and can live with a fairly simplified workflow to get liquid FX jobs done. This doesn't mean that other users shouldn't try it out, just that they may feel blocked by the current limitations. But note, this will not be, in any way, an equivalent to ICE. The next release, the 'FX TD' release, will expose the procedural graph and allow much more control over the solvers and order of operation, just what you would expect in an ICE-like procedural workflow. The difference here (and this is where Marcus can chime in), is that we're designing Bifrost to be a visual programming language, where you will be able to dive down into any compound to reveal the basic programmatic or mathematical nodes that drive higher-level functionality. This is very much like ICE. Here's the difference, however: these graphs are JIT-compiled for efficiency, then run as virtual executables by the Bifrost Computation Engine. More on that in another thread. The third (and by no means final) release we call the 'developer' release, where you'll be able to write your own custom C++ nodes and utilize the full Bifrost API (C++ and possibly Python). You can then insert these nodes into your graph, call them as rendertime procedurals or whatever. So are we simply tacking on a half-baked feature onto Maya? Absolutely not. Are we going to stop Bifrost development after Maya 2015? No way, there's SO much stuff we're working on, but there's obviously only so many people we can put on the team, even for a huge company like Autodesk. And I know this sounds like a cliche, but we're really trying to do things right in designing a future-proof framework. We spent a lot of time figuring out how to decouple Bifrost from Maya; to pass data between the two processes and not have Bifrost dependent on Maya, but rather Maya be a client to Bifrost. This means that we'll eventually be able to run Bifrost as a standalone app, on the cloud, on a farm, on your gaming system, iPad, Atari 2600, etc. If you feel this first release of Bifrost to be limited in functionality, consider that we had to postpone development on certain features in order to deliver a solid usable, basic (if simplified) initial workflow. We'd have much rather done this than pushed an unfinished solution through the pipe to increase the number of bullet points on the back of the box. We're just laying the foundation at this point. Mist, foam and spray are some things you may have heard that are indeed missing from Bifrost in Maya 2015. We had to choose between developing that or focusing on things like threading, furthering development on the FLIP solver or memory management, all of which take precedence over furthering the implementation of Bifrost particles. We've also had the opportunity to design the Bifrost codebase from the ground-up, utilizing modern libraries that Maya or Softimage would otherwise not have access to. This is why everything is so well threaded in Bifrost. I have to shamelessly disclose that I have a dual-CPU machine with 32 cores, and to see (and hear) them all humming at 100% is a marvelous thing. That, and Maya is still interactive and fluid whilst computation takes place in the background. This is totally new for Maya, but I know a other apps can do this. So, is Bifrost ready to take the place of Softimage ICE
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Thanks for the positive words, everyone. 2nd question, is of course, when is an estimate for stage 2 ICE like node editing. is that likely to be a service pack in current Maya or a 2016. or? Sadly, this is *exactly* the kind of question I cannot answer in any official capacity. You guys are all free to get on the Maya beta program and be privy to this kind of information. That, AND be the first ones on your block to try out new Bifrost functionality. If you want to be signed up for the beta, ping me and I'll get you an invite. Adrian -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:35 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Adrian, well written and a lot of facts information, thank you! the team and the project sounds amazing and exciting stuff indeed. am happy that you are happy, its refreshing indeed. so welcome! first question: you mention it can run on clouds, consoles , Atari 2600's will that list include softimage? :D 2nd question, is of course, when is an estimate for stage 2 ICE like node editing. is that likely to be a service pack in current Maya or a 2016. or? again. good news. for a change! attachment: winmail.dat
RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Second thought: in my long-winded email I tried to explain the current technology in Bifrost, not what's planned for the future. So stuff like the Bifrost Computation Server, threading, memory management, Maya being a 'client' to Bifrost; these are all things in place right now in Maya 2015. Adrian -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:38 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: RE: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? Perhaps, but it is a general enough roadmap that has already been discussed in a few channels (if unofficial). Also, the 'generalist' release is Maya 2015, so no surprises there. -Original Message- From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of David Gallagher Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:17 PM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya? This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G attachment: winmail.dat
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Yes, definitely giving them a chance! If they turn Maya/Bifrost into something great that can give me back what I just lost, believe me I will be one happy guy. On 3/20/2014 6:29 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com mailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Part of what made ICE so successful (in my mind) was the large amount of built in nodes and compounds that were included as part of the base system that were used in mostly non-simulated contexts (raycasting, geometry locations, etc). From the sound of the development stages, the first two releases will be fluid focused, do you expect that the final release will include the non particle functionality that ICE became so useful for? It sounds like you're expecting the users to build a more generic set of functionality using the API? (mesh deforms, curve based flow tools, IK solvers etc) Thanks again for the information as well. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:48 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, definitely giving them a chance! If they turn Maya/Bifrost into something great that can give me back what I just lost, believe me I will be one happy guy. On 3/20/2014 6:29 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: The product will be released within the quarter. To be fair, that info if you were on beta has been consistent and available for quite a while now, so it's not some last minute stunt. Marcus, Adrian and the rest of the team are nice guys, give them a chance. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:17 AM, David Gallagher davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com wrote: This email was fascinating. I'm curious though; we've been told we can't hear roadmaps because they run afoul of SEC rules. And yet, here we get a somewhat detailed roadmap. Dave G
ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Looking through the everyone's top 5 features, ICE was in about 95%. We all know it's the stand-out feature of Soft, though I know there are many more. *So the question still remains, when will Autodesk deliver an equivalent ICE system in Maya, that provides the features we have in Softimage TODAY?* If this has been answered in another thread, I do apologise as it's difficult to keep track. Cheers Chris
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Never?! Maya is so mixed bag of good and bad choices that I don't see how would it fit with Ice. Look at Hypershade and this other shading editor. I don't think it will ever be that useful and easy to use workflow-wise as it is in SI. Almost 99% of my scenes have some reference or contribution in ICE. It is so useful for everything. Honestly, I don't remember one where there isn't one. Artur 2014-03-19 11:38 GMT+01:00 Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com: Looking through the everyone's top 5 features, ICE was in about 95%. We all know it's the stand-out feature of Soft, though I know there are many more. *So the question still remains, when will Autodesk deliver an equivalent ICE system in Maya, that provides the features we have in Softimage TODAY?* If this has been answered in another thread, I do apologise as it's difficult to keep track. Cheers Chris
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
My point exactly! If 95% of Softimage users use ICE almost daily, surely Autodesk need to answer this question? When will we have this crucial functionality available in an alternative Autodesk product? On 19 March 2014 10:53, Artur Woźniak artur.w...@gmail.com wrote: Never?! Maya is so mixed bag of good and bad choices that I don't see how would it fit with Ice. Look at Hypershade and this other shading editor. I don't think it will ever be that useful and easy to use workflow-wise as it is in SI. Almost 99% of my scenes have some reference or contribution in ICE. It is so useful for everything. Honestly, I don't remember one where there isn't one. Artur 2014-03-19 11:38 GMT+01:00 Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com: Looking through the everyone's top 5 features, ICE was in about 95%. We all know it's the stand-out feature of Soft, though I know there are many more. *So the question still remains, when will Autodesk deliver an equivalent ICE system in Maya, that provides the features we have in Softimage TODAY?* If this has been answered in another thread, I do apologise as it's difficult to keep track. Cheers Chris -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
When I really think about it, I feel little panic inside, because I'll always look for 8, alt+9 shortcuts for my start of a working day. Lack of those two and it's functionality is like loosing an arm to me. Artur 2014-03-19 12:01 GMT+01:00 Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com: My point exactly! If 95% of Softimage users use ICE almost daily, surely Autodesk need to answer this question? When will we have this crucial functionality available in an alternative Autodesk product? On 19 March 2014 10:53, Artur Woźniak artur.w...@gmail.com wrote: Never?! Maya is so mixed bag of good and bad choices that I don't see how would it fit with Ice. Look at Hypershade and this other shading editor. I don't think it will ever be that useful and easy to use workflow-wise as it is in SI. Almost 99% of my scenes have some reference or contribution in ICE. It is so useful for everything. Honestly, I don't remember one where there isn't one. Artur 2014-03-19 11:38 GMT+01:00 Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com: Looking through the everyone's top 5 features, ICE was in about 95%. We all know it's the stand-out feature of Soft, though I know there are many more. *So the question still remains, when will Autodesk deliver an equivalent ICE system in Maya, that provides the features we have in Softimage TODAY?* If this has been answered in another thread, I do apologise as it's difficult to keep track. Cheers Chris -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
That happens every day to me, pressing 8 and going inside paint mode. On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Artur Woźniak artur.w...@gmail.comwrote: When I really think about it, I feel little panic inside, because I'll always look for 8, alt+9 shortcuts for my start of a working day. Lack of those two and it's functionality is like loosing an arm to me. Artur 2014-03-19 12:01 GMT+01:00 Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com: My point exactly! If 95% of Softimage users use ICE almost daily, surely Autodesk need to answer this question? When will we have this crucial functionality available in an alternative Autodesk product? On 19 March 2014 10:53, Artur Woźniak artur.w...@gmail.com wrote: Never?! Maya is so mixed bag of good and bad choices that I don't see how would it fit with Ice. Look at Hypershade and this other shading editor. I don't think it will ever be that useful and easy to use workflow-wise as it is in SI. Almost 99% of my scenes have some reference or contribution in ICE. It is so useful for everything. Honestly, I don't remember one where there isn't one. Artur 2014-03-19 11:38 GMT+01:00 Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com: Looking through the everyone's top 5 features, ICE was in about 95%. We all know it's the stand-out feature of Soft, though I know there are many more. *So the question still remains, when will Autodesk deliver an equivalent ICE system in Maya, that provides the features we have in Softimage TODAY?* If this has been answered in another thread, I do apologise as it's difficult to keep track. Cheers Chris -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
I would say not even half of SI users use ICE daily, but I agree, we need an ICE alternative. As for Autodesk will answer this? I really doubt it. Martin On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.comwrote: My point exactly! If 95% of Softimage users use ICE almost daily, surely Autodesk need to answer this question? When will we have this crucial functionality available in an alternative Autodesk product?
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
lol, I do it all the time when I'm using a Maya in default mode. That's one of the shortcuts you need to re-assign asap. Another one is Ctrl+Q. Martin On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 8:22 PM, Oscar Juarez tridi.animei...@gmail.comwrote: That happens every day to me, pressing 8 and going inside paint mode.
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
OK but about 95% put it down as a top 5 feature, so that's pretty darn crucial! The more I think about it, the more I can't imagine not having access to it, and it scares me. On 19 March 2014 11:24, Martin Yara furik...@gmail.com wrote: I would say not even half of SI users use ICE daily, but I agree, we need an ICE alternative. As for Autodesk will answer this? I really doubt it. Martin
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
The S key THE S KEY !!! On 19 March 2014 11:32, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: OK but about 95% put it down as a top 5 feature, so that's pretty darn crucial! The more I think about it, the more I can't imagine not having access to it, and it scares me. On 19 March 2014 11:24, Martin Yara furik...@gmail.com wrote: I would say not even half of SI users use ICE daily, but I agree, we need an ICE alternative. As for Autodesk will answer this? I really doubt it. Martin
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Since I jump back and forth between the two all the time, mostly as it applies to teaching, but also when I need to do nCloth or make something with PaintFX, I can't tell you how many times I have keyed things because I use the S key, and never remapped Softimage to use the alt key. The only two concessions I ever made to Maya workflow were the space bar to maximize panels, and the 3 button mouse combo was put in Maya mode (too much muscle memory over all the years as a Maya user to give that up). So even after 10 years as an SI user, I still can't break from using the S key in Maya at least once per session and it has F*CKED me so many times I can't even count. Even worse, by default, the S key in Maya sets keys on ALL attributes of the selected object. ALL OF THEM. On Mar 19, 2014, at 7:40 AM, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com wrote: The S key THE S KEY !!! On 19 March 2014 11:32, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: OK but about 95% put it down as a top 5 feature, so that's pretty darn crucial! The more I think about it, the more I can't imagine not having access to it, and it scares me. On 19 March 2014 11:24, Martin Yara furik...@gmail.com wrote: I would say not even half of SI users use ICE daily, but I agree, we need an ICE alternative. As for Autodesk will answer this? I really doubt it. Martin
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Yeah, that sucks. Half of your viewport turns red. 2014-03-19 12:55 GMT+01:00 Perry Harovas perryharo...@gmail.com: Since I jump back and forth between the two all the time, mostly as it applies to teaching, but also when I need to do nCloth or make something with PaintFX, I can't tell you how many times I have keyed things because I use the S key, and never remapped Softimage to use the alt key. The only two concessions I ever made to Maya workflow were the space bar to maximize panels, and the 3 button mouse combo was put in Maya mode (too much muscle memory over all the years as a Maya user to give that up). So even after 10 years as an SI user, I still can't break from using the S key in Maya at least once per session and it has F*CKED me so many times I can't even count. Even worse, by default, the S key in Maya sets keys on ALL attributes of the selected object. ALL OF THEM. On Mar 19, 2014, at 7:40 AM, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com wrote: The S key THE S KEY !!! On 19 March 2014 11:32, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: OK but about 95% put it down as a top 5 feature, so that's pretty darn crucial! The more I think about it, the more I can't imagine not having access to it, and it scares me. On 19 March 2014 11:24, Martin Yara furik...@gmail.com wrote: I would say not even half of SI users use ICE daily, but I agree, we need an ICE alternative. As for Autodesk will answer this? I really doubt it. Martin
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
...anyway, the burning question still needs answering On 19 March 2014 12:01, Artur Woźniak artur.w...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, that sucks. Half of your viewport turns red. 2014-03-19 12:55 GMT+01:00 Perry Harovas perryharo...@gmail.com: Since I jump back and forth between the two all the time, mostly as it applies to teaching, but also when I need to do nCloth or make something with PaintFX, I can't tell you how many times I have keyed things because I use the S key, and never remapped Softimage to use the alt key. The only two concessions I ever made to Maya workflow were the space bar to maximize panels, and the 3 button mouse combo was put in Maya mode (too much muscle memory over all the years as a Maya user to give that up). So even after 10 years as an SI user, I still can't break from using the S key in Maya at least once per session and it has F*CKED me so many times I can't even count. Even worse, by default, the S key in Maya sets keys on ALL attributes of the selected object. ALL OF THEM. On Mar 19, 2014, at 7:40 AM, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com wrote: The S key THE S KEY !!! On 19 March 2014 11:32, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: OK but about 95% put it down as a top 5 feature, so that's pretty darn crucial! The more I think about it, the more I can't imagine not having access to it, and it scares me. On 19 March 2014 11:24, Martin Yara furik...@gmail.com wrote: I would say not even half of SI users use ICE daily, but I agree, we need an ICE alternative. As for Autodesk will answer this? I really doubt it. Martin -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Yes, you are correct, and I didn't want to divert the original question. It is a question that needs answering, although I highly doubt they will be able to answer it in terms of dates. However, a road map would be a good idea, for anyone left who decides to move to Maya, or is trying to evaluate a move like that. That wouldn't be me, but the people who that applies to, yes, deserve some sort of road map I would think. On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.comwrote: ...anyway, the burning question still needs answering On 19 March 2014 12:01, Artur Woźniak artur.w...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, that sucks. Half of your viewport turns red. 2014-03-19 12:55 GMT+01:00 Perry Harovas perryharo...@gmail.com: Since I jump back and forth between the two all the time, mostly as it applies to teaching, but also when I need to do nCloth or make something with PaintFX, I can't tell you how many times I have keyed things because I use the S key, and never remapped Softimage to use the alt key. The only two concessions I ever made to Maya workflow were the space bar to maximize panels, and the 3 button mouse combo was put in Maya mode (too much muscle memory over all the years as a Maya user to give that up). So even after 10 years as an SI user, I still can't break from using the S key in Maya at least once per session and it has F*CKED me so many times I can't even count. Even worse, by default, the S key in Maya sets keys on ALL attributes of the selected object. ALL OF THEM. On Mar 19, 2014, at 7:40 AM, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com wrote: The S key THE S KEY !!! On 19 March 2014 11:32, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.comwrote: OK but about 95% put it down as a top 5 feature, so that's pretty darn crucial! The more I think about it, the more I can't imagine not having access to it, and it scares me. On 19 March 2014 11:24, Martin Yara furik...@gmail.com wrote: I would say not even half of SI users use ICE daily, but I agree, we need an ICE alternative. As for Autodesk will answer this? I really doubt it. Martin -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk -- Perry Harovas Animation and Visual Effects http://www.TheAfterImage.com http://www.theafterimage.com/
Re: ICE - When will we have todays functionality in Maya?
Hi Perry, Yes this is exactly correct. A roadmap of where we go from here, to actually get back to where we are today in Soft. Ridiculous really, but that's the situation we're in. On 19 March 2014 14:24, Perry Harovas perryharo...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, you are correct, and I didn't want to divert the original question. It is a question that needs answering, although I highly doubt they will be able to answer it in terms of dates. However, a road map would be a good idea, for anyone left who decides to move to Maya, or is trying to evaluate a move like that. That wouldn't be me, but the people who that applies to, yes, deserve some sort of road map I would think. On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.com wrote: ...anyway, the burning question still needs answering On 19 March 2014 12:01, Artur Woźniak artur.w...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, that sucks. Half of your viewport turns red. 2014-03-19 12:55 GMT+01:00 Perry Harovas perryharo...@gmail.com: Since I jump back and forth between the two all the time, mostly as it applies to teaching, but also when I need to do nCloth or make something with PaintFX, I can't tell you how many times I have keyed things because I use the S key, and never remapped Softimage to use the alt key. The only two concessions I ever made to Maya workflow were the space bar to maximize panels, and the 3 button mouse combo was put in Maya mode (too much muscle memory over all the years as a Maya user to give that up). So even after 10 years as an SI user, I still can't break from using the S key in Maya at least once per session and it has F*CKED me so many times I can't even count. Even worse, by default, the S key in Maya sets keys on ALL attributes of the selected object. ALL OF THEM. On Mar 19, 2014, at 7:40 AM, Sebastien Sterling sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com wrote: The S key THE S KEY !!! On 19 March 2014 11:32, Chris Marshall chrismarshal...@gmail.comwrote: OK but about 95% put it down as a top 5 feature, so that's pretty darn crucial! The more I think about it, the more I can't imagine not having access to it, and it scares me. On 19 March 2014 11:24, Martin Yara furik...@gmail.com wrote: I would say not even half of SI users use ICE daily, but I agree, we need an ICE alternative. As for Autodesk will answer this? I really doubt it. Martin -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk -- Perry Harovas Animation and Visual Effects http://www.TheAfterImage.com http://www.theafterimage.com/ -- Chris Marshall Mint Motion Limited 029 20 37 27 57 07730 533 115 www.mintmotion.co.uk
