RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers
Further proof that you can obtain a license to practice architecture without understanding what listing a product means. Wishfulness does not overcome proven knowledge. Best. > On 08/25/2020 10:40 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum > wrote: > > > I wouldn't install a non-conforming component no matter who said they'd take > liability. For me to install it knowing it's not right still can still > result in some level of liability no matter how much I might protest. Unless > the manufacturer responsible for the listing of the product issues a > directive stating that it can be installed in this alternative manner and > provides the specific installation guidelines, then and only then would I > install it. > > Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | > craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com > 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum On > Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:29 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Cc: John Denhardt > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers > > Agree 100%. Follow the Listing - period. > > If an architect or an engineer wants to violate the Listing, let them provide > direction and assume all liability. > > Thanks, > John > > John August Denhardt, PE > *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* > > *American Fire Sprinkler Association* > m: p: 301-343-1457 > 214-349-5965 ext 121 > w: firesprinkler.org > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm21I5yed8w$ > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm20u4MgBaA$ > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm23HmfHPkg$ > > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm231pZU61g$ > > > > *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.* > > *AFSA Summer Sale!* > > For a limited time only, AFSA is offering members up to 50% off its on-demand > recorded webinars! Featuring the most sought-after thought leaders, AFSA > On-Demand offers a superior learning experience with ability to earn CEU and > CPD credits anytime, anywhere. Visit > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.firesprinkler.org/ondemand__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm22r8lfM0g$ > to learn more. > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:26 AM Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum < > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > > > Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions. > > My guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. > > The building code requires the windows to be protected with listed > > sprinklers. > > Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal > > million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code and > > NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the > > liability as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend > > the money to put in the proper glass. > > > > Best regards, > > > > *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* > > > > [image: Burtell Fire_Small] > > > > Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* > > > > 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 > > > > Email: j...@burtellfire.com > > > > Web Site: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7lt > > Teg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm23_OhSm2w > > $ > > > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of > > low price is forgotten.**”* > > > > *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is > > intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This > > e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail > > transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain > > confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not > > the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or > > agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are > &g
Re: Window Sprinklers
If you are referring to Tyco WS sprinklers, then you do see that it is not listed when there is a horizontal mullion but you also see in its installation details that there is no maximum distance indicated for the “ceiling” to the sprinkler. Yup, go look at. One other aspect to this is that there are application instances where the building code requires sprinklers at the glass in lieu of a wall fire resistance rating, but not necessarily using Tyco WS sprinklers. Such is the case for glazing in atriums where the wall need only be 1-hour rated. A standard QR pendent would meet the building code requirement. If that was the situation then the lower sprinkler would need a multilevel shield to comply with an NFPA 13 installation. Right? So it may be possible to set this up as requested by the Architect but it would look like hell if standard black pipe and standard fittings were used. There would be a couple of ways to pipe this. I think each way would look ridiculous. Every sprinkler person in town would be snap-chatting pictures of it. Arguments about sprinklers not activating mean nothing. They are akin to saying there is nothing to burn. We just jump through the hoops given to us and keep moving. The Architect has his or her tit in a wringer. You just need to convince them to come up with an appropriate architectural solution that makes them look like they know what they are doing. The glazing as they have it now has to be architecturally rationalized in their mind to be the wrong thing. Somehow seed that thought and get it to grow. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO > On Aug 25, 2020, at 8:56 AM, Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum > wrote: > > I have an architect that wants to put additional window sprinklers below a > horizontal mullion. I am absolutely against this idea as it's not listed or > approved for this. Has anyone run into this situation? > > Best regards, > > *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* > > [image: Burtell Fire_Small] > > Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* > > 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 > > Email: j...@burtellfire.com > > Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low > price is forgotten.**”* > > *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is > intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This e-mail > transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or > other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that > is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this > e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it > to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or > any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please > immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the > original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or > saving it in any manner. Thank you. > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers
I agree. Yes, the assemblies are required to be rated. Best regards, *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* [image: Burtell Fire_Small] Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 Email: j...@burtellfire.com Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.**”* *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner. Thank you. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:36 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum < sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > The horizontal mullions create a horizontal barrier to the water run-down > of the window sprinklers. So the architect is probably figuring that if > they have window sprinklers located up high near the top of the frame and > those wet the glass down to the mullion and then they have another row of > window sprinklers covering the area between the mullion down to the bottom > of the frame, they've got it all covered. It sounds logical to those not > familiar with how these things work. > > But it won't work and doesn't meet the listing of the sprinklers. > > Sorry but the architect either has to change the glazing and get rid of > the mullion or get rid of the glazing altogether. There is not a sprinkler > fix for this. > > Is this glazing part of a fire rated assembly? > > Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | > craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com > 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum On > Behalf Of Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:26 AM > To: å... > Cc: Joe Burtell ; > sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers > > Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions. My > guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The > building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers. > Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal > million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code and NFPA > required to be listed for such use. The last part is the liability as a > small contractor. The architect does not want to spend the money to put in > the proper glass. > > Best regards, > > *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* > > [image: Burtell Fire_Small] > > Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* > > 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 > > Email: j...@burtellfire.com > > Web Site: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!QBoeZobDW-FXntlm2JDcpNp9-92LO1mrBBpJIm9eSul_7MB-0h4743FfdmDw4yrlHA$ > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low > price is forgotten.**”* > > *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is > intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This e-mail > transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or > other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that > is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this > e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it > to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or > any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please > immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the > original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or > saving it in any manner. Thank you. > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å... .... wrote: > > > > > > > Your situation is not fu
RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers
I wouldn't install a non-conforming component no matter who said they'd take liability. For me to install it knowing it's not right still can still result in some level of liability no matter how much I might protest. Unless the manufacturer responsible for the listing of the product issues a directive stating that it can be installed in this alternative manner and provides the specific installation guidelines, then and only then would I install it. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: John Denhardt Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers Agree 100%. Follow the Listing - period. If an architect or an engineer wants to violate the Listing, let them provide direction and assume all liability. Thanks, John John August Denhardt, PE *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* *American Fire Sprinkler Association* m: p: 301-343-1457 214-349-5965 ext 121 w: firesprinkler.org <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm21I5yed8w$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm20u4MgBaA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm23HmfHPkg$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm231pZU61g$ > *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.* *AFSA Summer Sale!* For a limited time only, AFSA is offering members up to 50% off its on-demand recorded webinars! Featuring the most sought-after thought leaders, AFSA On-Demand offers a superior learning experience with ability to earn CEU and CPD credits anytime, anywhere. Visit https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.firesprinkler.org/ondemand__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm22r8lfM0g$ to learn more. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:26 AM Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum < sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions. > My guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. > The building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers. > Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal > million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code and > NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the > liability as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend > the money to put in the proper glass. > > Best regards, > > *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* > > [image: Burtell Fire_Small] > > Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* > > 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 > > Email: j...@burtellfire.com > > Web Site: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7lt > Teg!UuIYmcxSmu2w8xKXpHz583xsDrCUbvCkCPW2PGZiuy2l6TF4KXXqS8dSm23_OhSm2w > $ > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of > low price is forgotten.**”* > > *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is > intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This > e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail > transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain > confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not > the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or > agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, > copying or other use of this transmission or any of the information > contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If > you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please > immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the > original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or > saving it in any manner. Thank you. > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å... wrote: > > > > > > > Your situation is not fully described for me to make a > > higher-quality response. > > I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2). > &
RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers
The horizontal mullions create a horizontal barrier to the water run-down of the window sprinklers. So the architect is probably figuring that if they have window sprinklers located up high near the top of the frame and those wet the glass down to the mullion and then they have another row of window sprinklers covering the area between the mullion down to the bottom of the frame, they've got it all covered. It sounds logical to those not familiar with how these things work. But it won't work and doesn't meet the listing of the sprinklers. Sorry but the architect either has to change the glazing and get rid of the mullion or get rid of the glazing altogether. There is not a sprinkler fix for this. Is this glazing part of a fire rated assembly? Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 10:26 AM To: å... Cc: Joe Burtell ; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Window Sprinklers Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions. My guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers. Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code and NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the liability as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend the money to put in the proper glass. Best regards, *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* [image: Burtell Fire_Small] Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 Email: j...@burtellfire.com Web Site: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.burtellfire.com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!QBoeZobDW-FXntlm2JDcpNp9-92LO1mrBBpJIm9eSul_7MB-0h4743FfdmDw4yrlHA$ *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.**”* *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner. Thank you. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å... wrote: > > > Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality > response. > I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2). > inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the > downfalling water to > in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane, > leaving lower sections starkly unwetted. > in the case of the second, water boucing off the pane and leaving the > primary window pane underprotected and sections below the horizontal > mullion direly so. > > Having said that... the words of Peter Drucker come to mind "nothing is > so useless as to do something that is not needed." > Depending upon where the windows are located: > A. is the chance of a fire higher than required to demand the window > sprinklers in the first place? > This is not a trivial question. It is for this very reason we > do not install sprinkles in some bathrooms and some closets... > The answer requires good judgment, which is mannah from > heaven, job justification and exercise of the brain from the mundane > black-&-white Code regurgitation. > B. Are there window sprinklers on both sides of the window barrier, > which could rationalize not installing window sprinklers when combined > with reasoning in A. > > Consideration from different angles: > Forest-for-the trees... as well as > the devil-is-in-the-details... > > Good luck, and thanks for sharing your situation Joe! > Scot Deal > Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering > gms: + 420 606 872 129 > > > > ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org https:/
Re: Window Sprinklers
Agree 100%. Follow the Listing - period. If an architect or an engineer wants to violate the Listing, let them provide direction and assume all liability. Thanks, John John August Denhardt, PE *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* *American Fire Sprinkler Association* m: p: 301-343-1457 214-349-5965 ext 121 w: firesprinkler.org <https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/> <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/> <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/> *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.* *AFSA Summer Sale!* For a limited time only, AFSA is offering members up to 50% off its on-demand recorded webinars! Featuring the most sought-after thought leaders, AFSA On-Demand offers a superior learning experience with ability to earn CEU and CPD credits anytime, anywhere. Visit http://www.firesprinkler.org/ondemand to learn more. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:26 AM Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum < sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote: > Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions. My > guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The > building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers. > Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the > horizontal million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code > and NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the liability > as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend the money to > put in the proper glass. > > Best regards, > > *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* > > [image: Burtell Fire_Small] > > Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* > > 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 > > Email: j...@burtellfire.com > > Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low > price is forgotten.**”* > > *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is > intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This e-mail > transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or > other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that > is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this > e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it > to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or > any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please > immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the > original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or > saving it in any manner. Thank you. > > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å... wrote: > > > > > > > Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality > > response. > > I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2). > > inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the > > downfalling water to > > in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane, leaving > > lower sections starkly unwetted. > > in the case of the second, water boucing off the pane and leaving the > > primary window pane underprotected and sections below the horizontal > > mullion direly so. > > > > Having said that... the words of Peter Drucker come to mind "nothing > is > > so useless as to do something that is not needed." > > Depending upon where the windows are located: > > A. is the chance of a fire higher than required to demand the window > > sprinklers in the first place? > > This is not a trivial question. It is for this very reason we do > > not install sprinkles in some bathrooms and some closets... > > The answer requires good judgment, which is mannah from heaven, > > job justification and exercise of the brain from the mundane > black-&-white > > Code regurgitation. > > B. Are there window sprinklers on both sides of the window barrier, > > which could rationalize not installing window sprinklers when combined > with > > reasoning in A. > > > > Consideration from different angles: > > Forest-for-the trees... as well as > > the devil-is-in-the-details... > > > > Good luck, and thanks for sharing your situation Joe! > > Scot Deal > > Excelsior
Re: Window Sprinklers
Here is how I see it. All manufacturers prohibit horizontal mullions. My guess is they failed testing when horizontal millions were present. The building code requires the windows to be protected with listed sprinklers. Even if I did put the additional window sprinkler below the horizontal million, it is now void of it's listing which the building code and NFPA required to be listed for such use. The last part is the liability as a small contractor. The architect does not want to spend the money to put in the proper glass. Best regards, *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* [image: Burtell Fire_Small] Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 Email: j...@burtellfire.com Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.**”* *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner. Thank you. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 8:15 AM å... wrote: > > > Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality > response. > I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2). > inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the > downfalling water to > in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane, leaving > lower sections starkly unwetted. > in the case of the second, water boucing off the pane and leaving the > primary window pane underprotected and sections below the horizontal > mullion direly so. > > Having said that... the words of Peter Drucker come to mind "nothing is > so useless as to do something that is not needed." > Depending upon where the windows are located: > A. is the chance of a fire higher than required to demand the window > sprinklers in the first place? > This is not a trivial question. It is for this very reason we do > not install sprinkles in some bathrooms and some closets... > The answer requires good judgment, which is mannah from heaven, > job justification and exercise of the brain from the mundane black-&-white > Code regurgitation. > B. Are there window sprinklers on both sides of the window barrier, > which could rationalize not installing window sprinklers when combined with > reasoning in A. > > Consideration from different angles: > Forest-for-the trees... as well as > the devil-is-in-the-details... > > Good luck, and thanks for sharing your situation Joe! > Scot Deal > Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering > gms: + 420 606 872 129 > > > > ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Window Sprinklers
I would ask - what would the lower sprinklers do? It seems like higher level sprinklers would go off first and then prevent the lower ones from operating. As you mentioned, they are not listed for that application. I have had the discussion before: If you want a fire rating, and a window, you have to make some compromises. Matt -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum On Behalf Of Joe Burtell via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 8:56 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Cc: Joe Burtell Subject: Window Sprinklers I have an architect that wants to put additional window sprinklers below a horizontal mullion. I am absolutely against this idea as it's not listed or approved for this. Has anyone run into this situation? Best regards, *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* [image: Burtell Fire_Small] Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 Email: j...@burtellfire.com Web Site: https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.burtellfire.com=E,1,vvE4-kU04XJEa_TSCBo0ppTnt4kM3l2UkAFdXCRt9jYvyMUd7t3lfyicebE_9UnUpPK7VlmMuNbbBd1sgVs1sh_SdFltZGgbg7aSBk0CH54,=1 *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.**”* *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner. Thank you. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2flists.firesprinkler.org%2flistinfo.cgi%2fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org=E,1,4XutUpAyQHtgkgggcC_ewWR-8b_kwAj6fPtokaVQBmhGppOUZULGRM4TFOkVvWbvdoyrGmCpdfUcXNx9cKIU_6ahRX9AJcDr_J5Z_vFcIqXndjQyY9BH=1 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Window Sprinklers
Your situation is not fully described for me to make a higher-quality response. I have however, seen instances where 1). horizontal mullions and yes, 2). inappropriate orientation and location of window sprinklers causes the downfalling water to in the case of the first, jet off the plane of the window pane, leaving lower sections starkly unwetted. in the case of the second, water boucing off the pane and leaving the primary window pane underprotected and sections below the horizontal mullion direly so. Having said that... the words of Peter Drucker come to mind "nothing is so useless as to do something that is not needed." Depending upon where the windows are located: A. is the chance of a fire higher than required to demand the window sprinklers in the first place? This is not a trivial question. It is for this very reason we do not install sprinkles in some bathrooms and some closets... The answer requires good judgment, which is mannah from heaven, job justification and exercise of the brain from the mundane black-&-white Code regurgitation. B. Are there window sprinklers on both sides of the window barrier, which could rationalize not installing window sprinklers when combined with reasoning in A. Consideration from different angles: Forest-for-the trees... as well as the devil-is-in-the-details... Good luck, and thanks for sharing your situation Joe! Scot Deal Excelsior Risk & Fire Engineering gms: + 420 606 872 129 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Window Sprinklers
I have an architect that wants to put additional window sprinklers below a horizontal mullion. I am absolutely against this idea as it's not listed or approved for this. Has anyone run into this situation? Best regards, *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* [image: Burtell Fire_Small] Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 Email: j...@burtellfire.com Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.**”* *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner. Thank you. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Window sprinklers
Thanks for sharing this information. My question is this: Tyco data sheets state locate window sprinklers within each mullioned segment. Whereas it is not required for butt-jointed window assemblies, provided the sprinkler spacing is maximum 8 feet. So clearly they consider the mullion to be an obstruction. However, vertical sidewalls can be installed upto 12 inches from the glazing. And sometimes the mullion is not very deep. In my case it is about 3 wide and 1 deep (depth measured perpendicular to the glass. Really, I don't know even if the two glass panels are butt-jointed, but the seam is covered for aesthetics. I'm still checking this out. In any case, I think a vertical sidewall 12 away centred at the mullion/frame should be adequate. What do you think? What bugs me is that Tyco data sheets don't take the depth of the mullions to any consideration. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fairchild, Jack Sent: February 22, 2013 7:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers The ICC pulled the evaluation report based on the code change, but it should be noted the onerous was always (and still is) on the building official to accept the alternative method regardless of the evaluation report. See here for a more detailed explanation of what occurred: http://www.icc-es.org/Criteria_Development/1210-pre/3_AC385.pdf Jack Fairchild -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of AKS-Gmail-IMAP Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Window sprinklers From what I understand Tyco was not invited to the hearings for the proposed changes and the rug was pulled out from under them in regard to the Tyco WS sprinkler for 1hr and 2hr equivalency. This is a big deal that has yet to hit the fan so to speak now that atrium like spaces seem to be latest architectural rage. I do believe vertical mullions are obstructions in the Tyco WS installation requirements. The idea to center the WS on a vertical mullion is also nixed in their installation requirement. Sprinklers at atrium glass is still a permitted exception in IBC 404.6 and the wording, The sprinkler system shall be designed so that the entire surface of the glass is wet upon activation of the sprinkler system without obstruction , does not leave any room for a challenge to a creative idea that gets water to bend around a mullion. You'll have two sprinklers per side at that window pair and you'll have a sprinkler baffle between them because they will be less than 6 feet apart. Good luck convincing the architect the real ramifications of what that will look like if they do not have a construction detail aptitude. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:02 PM, bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: I beg the Forum's pardon. I should know better than to post from home (snow day in Kansas. I have a good memory, it's just short). I think vertical mullions not being an obstruction makes sense though, otherwise the listing would not distiguish? Quoting Justin Reid justinreid00...@gmail.com: IBC 2012, 703.4 Justin Reid Sent from my iPhone On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com wrote: Not to be picky but IBC 2013? Don't ya mean '12? What section are you referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed? I can think of two areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and substitute for 1 hour construction. Did they change? Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire Rated is no longer approved. Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com: Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window. Rod at Rapid -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. Do I need two
RE: Window sprinklers
Well.. each mullioned section would mean vertical, since horizontal are not allowed. This means the water has to run accross the glass, not just down. I saw the width of it running down, regardless of vertical mullions as the max horizontal spacing. I think a case for be made for not needing a baffle; the 6' min. is for generic sprinklers, not Special Sprinklers. If the spray went 90 degrees 3' sideways each way, it seems the above would apply. Besides, a cold soldered head can always un-solder if need be! That's part of what makes it special :) Quoting A.P.Silva silva...@shaw.ca: Thanks for sharing this information. My question is this: Tyco data sheets state locate window sprinklers within each mullioned segment. Whereas it is not required for butt-jointed window assemblies, provided the sprinkler spacing is maximum 8 feet. So clearly they consider the mullion to be an obstruction. However, vertical sidewalls can be installed upto 12 inches from the glazing. And sometimes the mullion is not very deep. In my case it is about 3 wide and 1 deep (depth measured perpendicular to the glass. Really, I don't know even if the two glass panels are butt-jointed, but the seam is covered for aesthetics. I'm still checking this out. In any case, I think a vertical sidewall 12 away centred at the mullion/frame should be adequate. What do you think? What bugs me is that Tyco data sheets don't take the depth of the mullions to any consideration. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fairchild, Jack Sent: February 22, 2013 7:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers The ICC pulled the evaluation report based on the code change, but it should be noted the onerous was always (and still is) on the building official to accept the alternative method regardless of the evaluation report. See here for a more detailed explanation of what occurred: http://www.icc-es.org/Criteria_Development/1210-pre/3_AC385.pdf Jack Fairchild -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of AKS-Gmail-IMAP Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Window sprinklers From what I understand Tyco was not invited to the hearings for the proposed changes and the rug was pulled out from under them in regard to the Tyco WS sprinkler for 1hr and 2hr equivalency. This is a big deal that has yet to hit the fan so to speak now that atrium like spaces seem to be latest architectural rage. I do believe vertical mullions are obstructions in the Tyco WS installation requirements. The idea to center the WS on a vertical mullion is also nixed in their installation requirement. Sprinklers at atrium glass is still a permitted exception in IBC 404.6 and the wording, The sprinkler system shall be designed so that the entire surface of the glass is wet upon activation of the sprinkler system without obstruction , does not leave any room for a challenge to a creative idea that gets water to bend around a mullion. You'll have two sprinklers per side at that window pair and you'll have a sprinkler baffle between them because they will be less than 6 feet apart. Good luck convincing the architect the real ramifications of what that will look like if they do not have a construction detail aptitude. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:02 PM, bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: I beg the Forum's pardon. I should know better than to post from home (snow day in Kansas. I have a good memory, it's just short). I think vertical mullions not being an obstruction makes sense though, otherwise the listing would not distiguish? Quoting Justin Reid justinreid00...@gmail.com: IBC 2012, 703.4 Justin Reid Sent from my iPhone On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com wrote: Not to be picky but IBC 2013? Don't ya mean '12? What section are you referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed? I can think of two areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and substitute for 1 hour construction. Did they change? Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire Rated
Window sprinklers
I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. Do I need two window sprinklers? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Window sprinklers
Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window. Rod at Rapid -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. Do I need two window sprinklers? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Window sprinklers
I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire Rated is no longer approved. Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com: Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window. Rod at Rapid -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. Do I need two window sprinklers? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Window sprinklers
Not to be picky but IBC 2013? Don't ya mean '12? What section are you referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed? I can think of two areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and substitute for 1 hour construction. Did they change? Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire Rated is no longer approved. Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com: Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window. Rod at Rapid -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. Do I need two window sprinklers? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: Window sprinklers
IBC 2012, 703.4 Justin Reid Sent from my iPhone On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com wrote: Not to be picky but IBC 2013? Don't ya mean '12? What section are you referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed? I can think of two areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and substitute for 1 hour construction. Did they change? Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire Rated is no longer approved. Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com: Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window. Rod at Rapid -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. Do I need two window sprinklers? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: Window sprinklers
I beg the Forum's pardon. I should know better than to post from home (snow day in Kansas. I have a good memory, it's just short). I think vertical mullions not being an obstruction makes sense though, otherwise the listing would not distiguish? Quoting Justin Reid justinreid00...@gmail.com: IBC 2012, 703.4 Justin Reid Sent from my iPhone On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com wrote: Not to be picky but IBC 2013? Don't ya mean '12? What section are you referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed? I can think of two areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and substitute for 1 hour construction. Did they change? Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire Rated is no longer approved. Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com: Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window. Rod at Rapid -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. Do I need two window sprinklers? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Window sprinklers
I presume you mean a window with two panes separated by a vertical mullion. By most Codes/Rules: If the sprinkler/drencher is located centred on the mullion then one is OK. If mullion is less then 40mm proud of surface it can be ignored. Otherwise each pane of a window must be sprayed individually. Russell Gregory Ph 03 338 4853 e-mail rcgreg...@snap.net.nz -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Friday, 22 February 2013 7:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. Do I need two window sprinklers? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: Window sprinklers
From what I understand Tyco was not invited to the hearings for the proposed changes and the rug was pulled out from under them in regard to the Tyco WS sprinkler for 1hr and 2hr equivalency. This is a big deal that has yet to hit the fan so to speak now that atrium like spaces seem to be latest architectural rage. I do believe vertical mullions are obstructions in the Tyco WS installation requirements. The idea to center the WS on a vertical mullion is also nixed in their installation requirement. Sprinklers at atrium glass is still a permitted exception in IBC 404.6 and the wording, The sprinkler system shall be designed so that the entire surface of the glass is wet upon activation of the sprinkler system without obstruction , does not leave any room for a challenge to a creative idea that gets water to bend around a mullion. You'll have two sprinklers per side at that window pair and you'll have a sprinkler baffle between them because they will be less than 6 feet apart. Good luck convincing the architect the real ramifications of what that will look like if they do not have a construction detail aptitude. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:02 PM, bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: I beg the Forum's pardon. I should know better than to post from home (snow day in Kansas. I have a good memory, it's just short). I think vertical mullions not being an obstruction makes sense though, otherwise the listing would not distiguish? Quoting Justin Reid justinreid00...@gmail.com: IBC 2012, 703.4 Justin Reid Sent from my iPhone On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:33 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com wrote: Not to be picky but IBC 2013? Don't ya mean '12? What section are you referring to that sprinkler rating equivalent changed? I can think of two areas that had rating tied to sprinklers, atriums and substitute for 1 hour construction. Did they change? Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers I think only horizontal mullions are considered an obstruction to wetting the glass. Also, in IBC 2013, the sprinkler equivalent for Fire Rated is no longer approved. Quoting Rod DiBona r...@rapidfireinc.com: Pretty sure you do. The mullion acts as a barrier. More than likely if you present the dilemma to the A/E team they change the window. Rod at Rapid -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers I have two windows, each 2'-6 wide, separated by a vertical mullion. Do I need two window sprinklers? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130221/006e1b6d/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
IBC 3104.5 and window sprinklers
We have a situation that may call for window protection for a pedestrian walkway as described in IBC 3104.5, the standard calls for total wetting of the glass. Does this mean that the Tyco WS is our only acceptable means of protection, or is it possible to use standard sprinklers, for example by using the pattern distribution drawings that are available for some heads to ensure that the pattern completely covers the glass? Mike Morey, SET, CFPS Sprinkler Designer BMW Constructors, Inc. O: 317.651.0596 | C: 317.586.8111 www.bmwc.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/2014/23dea9cb/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: IBC 3104.5 and window sprinklers
The Tyco WS is used to provide an actual fire resistance rating of a window system. The exceptions to 3104.5 states that the wall and horizontal projected area (on the actual building) from the exit passageway is *not*required to have a fire-resistance rating when one of the listed conditions is met. You are referring to condition 1 of that list. Since the rating is not required, I would think that the Tyco WS system would not be required and that the exception is simply stating a performance requirement of completely wetting the surface with a sprinkler system. Using a pattern distribution drawing would be a good idea for supporting the rationale of the position of the sprinkler head to achieve this performance requirement. On a side note regarding Window Sprinklers used to achieve a rating (tested in accordance with ASTM E 119 like the Tyco WS), the 2012 edition of the IBC has weighed in on these assemblies. Section 703.4 now says that sprinklers can not be used to achieve a fire resistance rating even if tested in accordance with ASTM E 119. They give an out saying that modifications and alternative material requests can still be applied for in accordance with Section 104.10 and 104.11. Justin Reid On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 10:15 AM, Morey, Mike mo...@bmwc.com wrote: We have a situation that may call for window protection for a pedestrian walkway as described in IBC 3104.5, the standard calls for total wetting of the glass. Does this mean that the Tyco WS is our only acceptable means of protection, or is it possible to use standard sprinklers, for example by using the pattern distribution drawings that are available for some heads to ensure that the pattern completely covers the glass? Mike Morey, SET, CFPS Sprinkler Designer BMW Constructors, Inc. O: 317.651.0596 | C: 317.586.8111 www.bmwc.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/2014/23dea9cb/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/2014/42060c75/attachment.html ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
Who else has a listing? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS You know there are window sprinklers other than Tyco's. Greg McGahan ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
The NRC Canada's IRC has an interesting article on the use of SSP QR heads to protect tempered glass windows, but I don't believe ICC has adopted any of these yet. http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/ibp/irc/ctus/ctus-n12.html Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
Don't forget; 2006 IBC Preface-Introduction Internationally, code officials recognize the need for a modern, up-to-date building code addressing the design and installation of building systems through requirements emphasizing performance. 104.11 Alternative materials, design and methods of construction and equipment. The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any design or method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material, design or method of construction shall be approved where the building official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire resistance, durability and safety. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 11:21 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS The NRC Canada's IRC has an interesting article on the use of SSP QR heads to protect tempered glass windows, but I don't believe ICC has adopted any of these yet. http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/eng/ibp/irc/ctus/ctus-n12.html Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
Who else manufactures Window Sprinklers? Also, I am calculating the window sprinklers the same way as Tyco is recommending for there 'Window Sprinklers' to calculate, I could not find in NFPA-13 how to calculate sprinklers for Window protection (any suggestions?) I am using Tyco FRB 2.8K heads. George Medina Jr. -Original Message- From: Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 7:01 pm Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS You know there are window sprinklers other than Tyco's. I take the word sill iterally when applying this to heads/nozzles that are not specifically listed or the rating of the wall like Tyco's. My understanding is that a sill is orizontal. The local fire marshall here has interpreted this section the same way recently. Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection 850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 Original Message- rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] n Behalf Of Steve Leyton ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:53 PM o: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org ubject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS So long as the water can sheet down the glass from point of contact at the top, o the bottom of each panel, you can do it. As Thom said, refer to the data heet for placement requirements; if the panels are less than 6' wide, you will ikely have to baffle or separate the spirnklers in some manner so they don't old-solder. Steve Leyton rotection Design Consulting an Diego, CA Original Message- rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] n Behalf Of John Drucker ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:52 PM o: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org ubject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS George, The objective is that the entire surface of the glass be wetted. John Drucker, CET ire Protection Subcode Official ire/Building/Electrical Inspector ire Marshals Office orough of Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] n Behalf Of George Medina Jr ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:31 PM o: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org ubject: Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was sking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1. Thanks, eorge Medina Jr. Original Message- rom: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com o: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org ent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm ubject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS ou're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding. The glazing can be parated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but rizontal bumps are a deal-breaker. teve Leyton otection Design Consulting n Diego, CA ---Original Message- om: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] n Behalf Of George Medina Jr nt: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM : SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org bject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS orum, FPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 ere window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection ceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers all be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection being provided for windows complete walls. ould 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 ith no sills) be considered a similar feature? nd require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal ojections only. eorge Medina Jr. __ rinklerforum mailing list rinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org tp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum or Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org o Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org ut the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature tabase 4946 (20100315) __ he message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ttp://www.eset.com _ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature tabase 4946 (20100315) __ he message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. ttp://www.eset.com __ rinklerforum mailing list rinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org tp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum or Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org o Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org ut the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Put
RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
Reliable Model FM for one. They are not listed to make the glass 1 hour rated, but they are listed for exposure protection. Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 10:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS Who else has a listing? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS You know there are window sprinklers other than Tyco's. Greg McGahan ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding. The glazing can be separated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but horizontal bumps are a deal-breaker. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Medina Jr Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM To: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org Subject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS Forum, NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 Where window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection exceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers shall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection is being provided for windows or complete walls. Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 (with no sills) be considered a similar feature? and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal projections only. George Medina Jr. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
I apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was asking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1. Thanks, George Medina Jr. -Original Message- From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding. The glazing can be eparated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but orizontal bumps are a deal-breaker. Steve Leyton rotection Design Consulting an Diego, CA Original Message- rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] n Behalf Of George Medina Jr ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM o: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org ubject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS orum, NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 here window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection xceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers hall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection s being provided for windows r complete walls. Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 with no sills) be considered a similar feature? and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal rojections only. eorge Medina Jr. ___ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature atabase 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature atabase 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
Check the window sprinkler cutsheets. Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Medina Jr Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 2:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS I apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was asking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1. Thanks, George Medina Jr. -Original Message- From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding. The glazing can be eparated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but orizontal bumps are a deal-breaker. Steve Leyton rotection Design Consulting an Diego, CA Original Message- rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] n Behalf Of George Medina Jr ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM o: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org ubject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS orum, NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 here window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection xceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers hall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection s being provided for windows r complete walls. Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 with no sills) be considered a similar feature? and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal rojections only. eorge Medina Jr. ___ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature atabase 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature atabase 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
See TYCO data Sheet TFP 620. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Medina Jr Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 1:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS I apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was asking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1. Thanks, George Medina Jr. -Original Message- From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding. The glazing can be eparated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but orizontal bumps are a deal-breaker. Steve Leyton rotection Design Consulting an Diego, CA Original Message- rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] n Behalf Of George Medina Jr ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM o: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org ubject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS orum, NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 here window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection xceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers hall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection s being provided for windows r complete walls. Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 with no sills) be considered a similar feature? and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal rojections only. eorge Medina Jr. ___ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature atabase 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature atabase 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
WINDOW SPRINKLERS
I have read Tyco's Data sheet and was planning on using a SSP because of Tyco's 5.6k, and NFPA's 2007 Table 7.8.8.4 reference to 2.8k for windows 3 to 4ft. George Medina Jr. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
George, The objective is that the entire surface of the glass be wetted. John Drucker, CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Fire Marshals Office Borough of Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Medina Jr Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS I apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was asking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1. Thanks, George Medina Jr. -Original Message- From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding. The glazing can be eparated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but orizontal bumps are a deal-breaker. Steve Leyton rotection Design Consulting an Diego, CA Original Message- rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] n Behalf Of George Medina Jr ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM o: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org ubject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS orum, NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 here window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection xceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers hall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection s being provided for windows r complete walls. Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 with no sills) be considered a similar feature? and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal rojections only. eorge Medina Jr. ___ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature atabase 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature atabase 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS
So long as the water can sheet down the glass from point of contact at the top, to the bottom of each panel, you can do it. As Thom said, refer to the data sheet for placement requirements; if the panels are less than 6' wide, you will likely have to baffle or separate the spirnklers in some manner so they don't cold-solder. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS George, The objective is that the entire surface of the glass be wetted. John Drucker, CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Fire Marshals Office Borough of Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Medina Jr Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: WINDOW SPRINKLERS I apologize for not being more clear, the 2½ mullions are vertical and was asking if each panel required separate sprinklers for them exceeding 1. Thanks, George Medina Jr. -Original Message- From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, Apr 1, 2010 12:22 pm Subject: RE: WINDOW SPRINKLERS You're not allowed horizontal mullions or molding. The glazing can be eparated by vertical mullions so long as each panel has its own sprinkler, but orizontal bumps are a deal-breaker. Steve Leyton rotection Design Consulting an Diego, CA Original Message- rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] n Behalf Of George Medina Jr ent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:19 PM o: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org ubject: WINDOW SPRINKLERS orum, NFPA-13 (2007) Sec.7.8.8.2 here window sills or similar features result in recesses or projection xceeding 1 in depth, separate sprinklers hall be provided for each window on each level, regardless of wether protection s being provided for windows r complete walls. Would 2½ mullions spaced at 4'-0 on center with the window height at 9'-0 with no sills) be considered a similar feature? and require separate sprinklers? it seems like it is addressing horizontal rojections only. eorge Medina Jr. ___ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature atabase 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature atabase 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ prinklerforum mailing list prinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org ttp://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4946 (20100315) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email
RE: Window sprinklers
That's the operative phrase; the entire surface of the glass is wet. SS or WS the requirement is the same, wet the glass to maintain its integrity as the barrier. There are architectural glass panel systems that employ methods and materials that conceal the framework and thus are candidates for this application. The litmus test regardless of the sprinkler is will the entire surface of the glass be wetted. John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of AKS-Gmail-IMAP Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 11:47 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Window sprinklers In regard to the first question about to WS or not to WS, note that the building code is: On Mar 8, 2010, at 9:59 PM, John Drucker wrote: BETWEEN 4 INCHES AND 12 INCHES (102 MM AND 305 MM) AWAY FROM THE GLASS AND DESIGNED SO THAT THE ENTIRE SURFACE OF THE GLASS IS WET UPON ACTIVATION OF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WITHOUT OBSTRUCTION. Almost every window glazing condition uses a storefront type framing system where there is a 2 or so frame between the top of the exposed glass and the rough opening. Since we must follow NFPA 13 installation standards, which includes the obstruction rules, and since we must follow the building code requirement to the letter, there is no way to position an unobstructed sprinkler at 4 to 12 from the glass without the sprinkler deflector at least 2 down from the rough opening. In other words in typical architectural conditions this sprinkler must be fully pendent to be designed so that the entire surface .. is wet. It could not be semi-recessed nor concealed. So if this sprinkler has to look pretty much like a WS anyway, then it might as well be a WS. At least you will have covered all the bases with an installed sprinkler designed for the application. Furthermore, since you cannot have horizontal mullions and since each vertical mullion blocks the glass wetting, you have the nasty situation where the sprinklers drive the architectural design. The flexibility to go to 8 feet with the WS instead of 6 feet with standard sprinklers goes a long way to smooth out the situation. So again, it might as well be WS when the quantity is manageable. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Window sprinklers
Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard spray sprinklers be used? Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window sprinklers
Only the person that specified the rated wall or alternate means and methods for the glass can answer that. You'll note NFPA 13 doesn't have anything for a contractor to follow, thus this is architect or engineering work to decide how to do it. FWIW I've seen both and am comfortable with SS when it's small like an occasional side light or opening in a door. IMHO WS are the only way with large expanses of glass. I also like to see WS's on their own valve. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard spray sprinklers be used? Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window sprinklers
In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance rating required to be maintained with this installation. Only listed window sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating for glazing. This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance. If the glazing is located in a fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be maintained for the opening protective. Therefore, if sprinklers were to be used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window sprinklers must be used. In addition to the testing for the fire rating, the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted. This does not apply to regular spray sprinklers. Regards, Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson [rob...@dakotafire.com] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard spray sprinklers be used? Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window sprinklers
Sal, I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of the rated glass. It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass. So wouldn't the answer to Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated glass? Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years. Best regards, Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET 657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance rating required to be maintained with this installation. Only listed window sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating for glazing. This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance. If the glazing is located in a fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be maintained for the opening protective. Therefore, if sprinklers were to be used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window sprinklers must be used. In addition to the testing for the fire rating, the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted. This does not apply to regular spray sprinklers. Regards, Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson [rob...@dakotafire.com] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard spray sprinklers be used? Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window sprinklers
There was a comment that SS sprinklers were used to protect Small openings. Some of those small openings such as the windows in doors are OK by code up to a specific size, openings larger than that size would require listed protection in a listed assembly. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance rating required to be maintained with this installation. Only listed window sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating for glazing. This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance. If the glazing is located in a fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be maintained for the opening protective. Therefore, if sprinklers were to be used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window sprinklers must be used. In addition to the testing for the fire rating, the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted. This does not apply to regular spray sprinklers. Regards, Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson [rob...@dakotafire.com] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard spray sprinklers be used? Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window sprinklers
Bob: Wasn't the whole Atrium glass issue because the walls around an atrium were being treated like exposure protection, not as rated assembly compliance? What I think I heard, and could be wrong, was that SSP/ssu closely spaces were wetting the glass or wall, similar to exposure protection since there was never going to be a fire fighter 30'+ in the air in the atrium hosing down the glass. As I said I could be Wong. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers Sal, I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of the rated glass. It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass. So wouldn't the answer to Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated glass? Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years. Best regards, Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET 657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance rating required to be maintained with this installation. Only listed window sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating for glazing. This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance. If the glazing is located in a fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be maintained for the opening protective. Therefore, if sprinklers were to be used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window sprinklers must be used. In addition to the testing for the fire rating, the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted. This does not apply to regular spray sprinklers. Regards, Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson [rob...@dakotafire.com] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard spray sprinklers be used? Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window sprinklers
Thom, I'm hopeful Mr. Izzo will shed more light on this for us... it's not a NFPA 13 allowance - it's a building code issue and my expertise is limited to scuba diving. Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET SSI Master Diver Certified I doubt you could be Wong. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers Bob: Wasn't the whole Atrium glass issue because the walls around an atrium were being treated like exposure protection, not as rated assembly compliance? What I think I heard, and could be wrong, was that SSP/ssu closely spaces were wetting the glass or wall, similar to exposure protection since there was never going to be a fire fighter 30'+ in the air in the atrium hosing down the glass. As I said I could be Wong. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers Sal, I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of the rated glass. It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass. So wouldn't the answer to Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated glass? Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years. Best regards, Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET 657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance rating required to be maintained with this installation. Only listed window sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating for glazing. This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance. If the glazing is located in a fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be maintained for the opening protective. Therefore, if sprinklers were to be used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window sprinklers must be used. In addition to the testing for the fire rating, the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted. This does not apply to regular spray sprinklers. Regards, Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson [rob...@dakotafire.com] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard spray sprinklers be used? Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send
RE: Window sprinklers
Bob: I agree, Bob. My dear friend John Drucker would be disappointed in me for forgetting about the ability of the building code in providing such prescriptive alternatives. My intent was to just make the distinction between a sprinkler actually tested against ASTM E119 and a regular spray sprinkler that is not; that a listed window sprinkler would serve as a direct equivalent as an opening protective, compared to fire rated glazing, where a regular spray sprinkler used for such applications would require some prescriptive requirement assigned by the building code (or NFPA standards), as you mention. I welcome your comment, as it suits the purpose of this forum which is to learn from each other. Believe me, I am not looking to push something I cannot sell!! Best Regards, Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo [bcap...@cox.net] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers Sal, I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of the rated glass. It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass. So wouldn't the answer to Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated glass? Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years. Best regards, Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET 657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance rating required to be maintained with this installation. Only listed window sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating for glazing. This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance. If the glazing is located in a fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be maintained for the opening protective. Therefore, if sprinklers were to be used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window sprinklers must be used. In addition to the testing for the fire rating, the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted. This does not apply to regular spray sprinklers. Regards, Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson [rob...@dakotafire.com] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard spray sprinklers be used? Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list
RE: Window sprinklers
May be true, don't know. These rules existed before WS heads. I would think part of this was code people had a problem (wanted some rating and allow glass) with no way to fix it with existing tested technology. Not unheard of for code writers to use common sense and make things up. Sometimes this common sense works sometimes may be not so well. I also imagine they never thought there would be a market for such a limited application. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 3:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers Bob: Wasn't the whole Atrium glass issue because the walls around an atrium were being treated like exposure protection, not as rated assembly compliance? What I think I heard, and could be wrong, was that SSP/ssu closely spaces were wetting the glass or wall, similar to exposure protection since there was never going to be a fire fighter 30'+ in the air in the atrium hosing down the glass. As I said I could be Wong. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers Sal, I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of the rated glass. It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass. So wouldn't the answer to Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated glass? Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years. Best regards, Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET 657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance rating required to be maintained with this installation. Only listed window sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating for glazing. This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance. If the glazing is located in a fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be maintained for the opening protective. Therefore, if sprinklers were to be used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window sprinklers must be used. In addition to the testing for the fire rating, the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted. This does not apply to regular spray sprinklers. Regards, Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson [rob...@dakotafire.com] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard spray sprinklers be used? Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send
RE: Window sprinklers
Sal, I assure you, no one thought you were pushing a product. I was looking for the education you provided and as always, your wealth of knowledge is appreciated! bc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:42 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers Bob: I agree, Bob. My dear friend John Drucker would be disappointed in me for forgetting about the ability of the building code in providing such prescriptive alternatives. My intent was to just make the distinction between a sprinkler actually tested against ASTM E119 and a regular spray sprinkler that is not; that a listed window sprinkler would serve as a direct equivalent as an opening protective, compared to fire rated glazing, where a regular spray sprinkler used for such applications would require some prescriptive requirement assigned by the building code (or NFPA standards), as you mention. I welcome your comment, as it suits the purpose of this forum which is to learn from each other. Believe me, I am not looking to push something I cannot sell!! Best Regards, Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo [bcap...@cox.net] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers Sal, I am not challenging your knowledge or expertise, and while I agree that window sprinklers are tested for this specific application, the use of sprinklers in lieu of rated construction materials is really a building code issue where the atrium section permits closely spaced sprinklers in lieu of the rated glass. It doesn't prescribe a specific sprinkler in terms of a listing, nor does it prescribe a deluge water curtain... in fact, it doesn't specify sprinklers on both sides of the glass. So wouldn't the answer to Mr. Thomson's original question simply be that it's up to the requirements of the local AHJ in each case where sprinklers are used in lieu of rated glass? Please know I am not looking to argue - just looking to be clear or to verify that I've misunderstood this code allowance for years. Best regards, Bob Caputo, CFPS, CET 657 Cantara Lane, Vista, CA 92081 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers In answering this question, one must first ask if there is fire resistance rating required to be maintained with this installation. Only listed window sprinklers are tested and listed to provide an actual fire resistance rating for glazing. This is because these sprinklers are tested in accordance with the ASTM E119 standard for fire resistance. If the glazing is located in a fire rated assembly, like a rated corridor wall, the fire resistance must be maintained for the opening protective. Therefore, if sprinklers were to be used for this purpose in lieu of fire rated glazing, the listed window sprinklers must be used. In addition to the testing for the fire rating, the positioning of the sprinklers relative to the glazing is also test specific, as this ensures all areas of the are wetted. This does not apply to regular spray sprinklers. Regards, Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson [rob...@dakotafire.com] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window sprinklers Do you have to use window sprinklers to protect windows or can standard spray sprinklers be used? Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email rob...@dakotafire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field
RE: Window sprinklers
Wait. You mean this exterior dry horizontal sidewall head I'm supposed to center over the exterior window connected to the wet system piping in the ceiling might not work the way the engineer drew it? Buy an engineer drew it? It's on the drawring? (my apologies, a sore spot still..) Wong Not unheard of for code writers to use common sense and make things up. Sometimes this common sense works sometimes may be not so well. I also imagine they never thought there would be a market for such a limited application. Chris Cahill, P.E. As I said I could be Wong. Thom McMahon, SET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window sprinklers
Lol, it works just fine on paper. Engineers do it on paper, contractors do it for real. That's an original of mine if you want to steal it. Gets a little complicated for me being both. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duross Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers Wait. You mean this exterior dry horizontal sidewall head I'm supposed to center over the exterior window connected to the wet system piping in the ceiling might not work the way the engineer drew it? Buy an engineer drew it? It's on the drawring? (my apologies, a sore spot still..) Wong Not unheard of for code writers to use common sense and make things up. Sometimes this common sense works sometimes may be not so well. I also imagine they never thought there would be a market for such a limited application. Chris Cahill, P.E. As I said I could be Wong. Thom McMahon, SET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window sprinklers
Sal, You are forgiven. There are instances where the building/fire code prescribes the protection, the best example is the 903.3.1.2 balcony provisions. But there are others; 404.5 Enclosure of atriums. Atrium spaces shall be separated from adjacent spaces by a 1-hour fire barrier constructed in accordance with Section 706 or a horizontal assembly constructed in accordance with Section 711, or both. Exceptions: 1.A GLASS WALL FORMING A SMOKE PARTITION WHERE AUTOMATIC SPRINKLERS ARE SPACED 6 FEET (1829 mm) or less along both sides of the separation wall, or on the room side only if there is not a walkway on the atrium side, and BETWEEN 4 INCHES AND 12 INCHES (102 MM AND 305 MM) AWAY FROM THE GLASS AND DESIGNED SO THAT THE ENTIRE SURFACE OF THE GLASS IS WET UPON ACTIVATION OF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WITHOUT OBSTRUCTION. The glass shall be installed in a gasketed frame so that the framing system deflects without breaking (loading) the glass before the sprinkler system operates. No mention in the exception of NFPA-13 or listing/approval of the sprinklers for this specific application. So technically one could prescriptively standard spray sprinklers spaced every six feet, 12 inches away from and on one side of a floor to ceiling glass wall. 408.3.6 Exit enclosures. One of the required exit enclosures in each building shall be permitted to have glazing installed in doors and interior walls at each landing level providing access to the enclosure, provided that the following conditions are met: 4. The GLAZING SHALL BE PROTECTED ON BOTH SIDES BY AN AUTOMATIC FIRE SPRINKLER SYSTEM. The sprinkler system shall be designed to WET COMPLETELY THE ENTIRE SURFACE OF ANY GLAZING AFFECTED BY FIRE WHEN ACTUATED. 5. The glazing shall be in a gasketed frame and installed in such a manner that the framing system will deflect without breaking (loading) the glass before the sprinkler system operates. However there are those that are specific with regards to approvals/listings and NFPA-13. Pay particular attention to provisions that require sprinklers to be provided THROUGHOUT and not just localized protection. 704.12 Opening protection. WINDOWS IN EXTERIOR WALLS REQUIRED TO HAVE PROTECTED OPENINGS in accordance with other sections of this code or determined to be protected in accordance with Section 704.3 or 704.8 shall comply with Section 715.5. Other openings required to be protected with fire door or shutter assemblies in accordance with other sections of this code or determined to be protected in accordance with Section 704.3 or 704.8 shall comply with Section 715.4. Exception: OPENING PROTECTIVES ARE NOT REQUIRED WHERE THE BUILDING IS PROTECTED THROUGHOUT BY AN AUTOMATIC SPRINKLER SYSTEM and the exterior OPENINGS ARE PROTECTED BY AN APPROVED WATER CURTAIN USING AUTOMATIC SPRINKLERS APPROVED FOR THAT USE. The sprinklers and the water curtain shall be installed in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 and shall have an automatic water supply and fire department connection. This is typically where the WS is referenced. Table 704.1 All groups except B M- Escalator openings connecting four or less stories IN A SPRINKLERED BUILDING. Openings MUST BE PROTECTED BY A DRAFT CURTAIN AND CLOSELY SPACED SPRINKLERS IN ACCORDANCE WITH (2002) NFPA 13. Groups B M Escalator openings IN A SPRINKLERED BUILDING protected by a DRAFT CURTAIN AND CLOSELY SPACED SPRINKLERS IN ACCORDANCE WITH (2002) NFPA 13. These are just code excerpts, always utilize the code in a holistic manner. Hope that helps, John Drucker, CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Fire Marshals Office Borough of Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:42 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window sprinklers Bob: I agree, Bob. My dear friend John Drucker would be disappointed in me for forgetting about the ability of the building code in providing such prescriptive alternatives. My intent was to just make the distinction between a sprinkler actually tested against ASTM E119 and a regular spray sprinkler that is not; that a listed window sprinkler would serve as a direct equivalent as an opening protective, compared to fire rated glazing, where a regular spray sprinkler used for such applications would require some prescriptive requirement assigned by the building code (or NFPA standards), as you mention. I welcome your comment, as it suits the purpose of this forum which is to learn from each other. Believe me, I am not looking to push something I cannot sell!! Best Regards, Salvatore J. Izzo, P.E. SFPE Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo [bcap...@cox.net] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:11 PM
Re: Window sprinklers
In regard to the first question about to WS or not to WS, note that the building code is: On Mar 8, 2010, at 9:59 PM, John Drucker wrote: BETWEEN 4 INCHES AND 12 INCHES (102 MM AND 305 MM) AWAY FROM THE GLASS AND DESIGNED SO THAT THE ENTIRE SURFACE OF THE GLASS IS WET UPON ACTIVATION OF THE SPRINKLER SYSTEM WITHOUT OBSTRUCTION. Almost every window glazing condition uses a storefront type framing system where there is a 2 or so frame between the top of the exposed glass and the rough opening. Since we must follow NFPA 13 installation standards, which includes the obstruction rules, and since we must follow the building code requirement to the letter, there is no way to position an unobstructed sprinkler at 4 to 12 from the glass without the sprinkler deflector at least 2 down from the rough opening. In other words in typical architectural conditions this sprinkler must be fully pendent to be designed so that the entire surface .. is wet. It could not be semi-recessed nor concealed. So if this sprinkler has to look pretty much like a WS anyway, then it might as well be a WS. At least you will have covered all the bases with an installed sprinkler designed for the application. Furthermore, since you cannot have horizontal mullions and since each vertical mullion blocks the glass wetting, you have the nasty situation where the sprinklers drive the architectural design. The flexibility to go to 8 feet with the WS instead of 6 feet with standard sprinklers goes a long way to smooth out the situation. So again, it might as well be WS when the quantity is manageable. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Window Sprinklers
Forum, Can a window sprinkler be considered in your head layout or does it merely cover the window space only and you must lay out heads using the line of window sprinklers as your wall? For example, if this was a standard water curtain with heads on 6' centers your heads would cover 7.5' away from the center line of the heads (away from the water curtain) even in an ordinary hazard occupancy. But window heads appear to me a directional spray specialty head and it seems to me that the standard coverage heads would need to spray to the center line of the window head. Any thoughts? Cliff Whitfield, SET President Fire Design, Inc. cl...@fire-design.com www.fire-design.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
I would say no you can't use them for floor coverage. On the plus side though I don't think you have to worry about cold soldering from the ceiling sprinklers either. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:46 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window Sprinklers Forum, Can a window sprinkler be considered in your head layout or does it merely cover the window space only and you must lay out heads using the line of window sprinklers as your wall? For example, if this was a standard water curtain with heads on 6' centers your heads would cover 7.5' away from the center line of the heads (away from the water curtain) even in an ordinary hazard occupancy. But window heads appear to me a directional spray specialty head and it seems to me that the standard coverage heads would need to spray to the center line of the window head. Any thoughts? Cliff Whitfield, SET President Fire Design, Inc. cl...@fire-design.com www.fire-design.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Ron, That's what I was thinking. I just don't see any way around it. Their data sheet does require a minimum of 6' from standard sprinklers without a baffle. That's one of the things that makes it more difficult to lay out. Thanks, Cliff -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers I would say no you can't use them for floor coverage. On the plus side though I don't think you have to worry about cold soldering from the ceiling sprinklers either. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:46 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window Sprinklers Forum, Can a window sprinkler be considered in your head layout or does it merely cover the window space only and you must lay out heads using the line of window sprinklers as your wall? For example, if this was a standard water curtain with heads on 6' centers your heads would cover 7.5' away from the center line of the heads (away from the water curtain) even in an ordinary hazard occupancy. But window heads appear to me a directional spray specialty head and it seems to me that the standard coverage heads would need to spray to the center line of the window head. Any thoughts? Cliff Whitfield, SET President Fire Design, Inc. cl...@fire-design.com www.fire-design.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Also unless the windows extend to the ceiling the widow sprinklers will be placed lower than the ceiling protection, since they are only intended to protect the window opening, and not floor space. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:20 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Ron, That's what I was thinking. I just don't see any way around it. Their data sheet does require a minimum of 6' from standard sprinklers without a baffle. That's one of the things that makes it more difficult to lay out. Thanks, Cliff -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers I would say no you can't use them for floor coverage. On the plus side though I don't think you have to worry about cold soldering from the ceiling sprinklers either. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:46 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window Sprinklers Forum, Can a window sprinkler be considered in your head layout or does it merely cover the window space only and you must lay out heads using the line of window sprinklers as your wall? For example, if this was a standard water curtain with heads on 6' centers your heads would cover 7.5' away from the center line of the heads (away from the water curtain) even in an ordinary hazard occupancy. But window heads appear to me a directional spray specialty head and it seems to me that the standard coverage heads would need to spray to the center line of the window head. Any thoughts? Cliff Whitfield, SET President Fire Design, Inc. cl...@fire-design.com www.fire-design.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Thom, That brings up another issue I've been wondering about. I am being required to use these on both sides of the windows. I have not studied the details yet but if the top of the window is at 7' AFF and the ceiling is at 12', how do the heads activate in a timely fashion? That could be an issue on the inside of this area. The bigger problem I have is that this window (about 140 lf in one direction) is for an overlook into a restoration hangar and the roof on the outside of the window is probably 20' above the top of the window. What is the chance that those heads will ever activate? I'm sure the guys at Tyco did their research and the EoR knows exactly what he is doing but something in my mind wants to throw up a red flag. It just goes against what I think I understand about sprinklers. Cliff -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 12:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Also unless the windows extend to the ceiling the widow sprinklers will be placed lower than the ceiling protection, since they are only intended to protect the window opening, and not floor space. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:20 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Ron, That's what I was thinking. I just don't see any way around it. Their data sheet does require a minimum of 6' from standard sprinklers without a baffle. That's one of the things that makes it more difficult to lay out. Thanks, Cliff -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 8:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers I would say no you can't use them for floor coverage. On the plus side though I don't think you have to worry about cold soldering from the ceiling sprinklers either. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ 85024 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:46 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window Sprinklers Forum, Can a window sprinkler be considered in your head layout or does it merely cover the window space only and you must lay out heads using the line of window sprinklers as your wall? For example, if this was a standard water curtain with heads on 6' centers your heads would cover 7.5' away from the center line of the heads (away from the water curtain) even in an ordinary hazard occupancy. But window heads appear to me a directional spray specialty head and it seems to me that the standard coverage heads would need to spray to the center line of the window head. Any thoughts? Cliff Whitfield, SET President Fire Design, Inc. cl...@fire-design.com www.fire-design.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word
RE: Window Sprinklers
There is a test white paper on these heads on the ICC web site, that I looked at several years ago. Basically these heads are to keep the glass from reaching a temp that would cause it to crack or fail. That temp is higher than the rating for these heads. The heads are exposed to the same heat sources as are the glass, Convection conduction and radiant heat. They don't need to activate at all if the fire is controlled by the control mode sprinklers, but they need to operate if the sprinkler system is overwhelmed or the fire source is located close to the glass. They need to maintain the hour rating of the separation. Both sides of the glass is the preferred installation unless you can guarantee which side will have the fire. As you know the convection will not usually be a large factor with windows this far below the ceilings, but radiant heat and conduction, as well as heat forced down by the ceiling sprinklers when they operate can put the glass at risk. Timely is relative. They only need to activate before the glass fails, or gets hot enough for the water to cause the glass to fail. That is why the placement rules are so specific. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 11:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Thom, That brings up another issue I've been wondering about. I am being required to use these on both sides of the windows. I have not studied the details yet but if the top of the window is at 7' AFF and the ceiling is at 12', how do the heads activate in a timely fashion? That could be an issue on the inside of this area. The bigger problem I have is that this window (about 140 lf in one direction) is for an overlook into a restoration hangar and the roof on the outside of the window is probably 20' above the top of the window. What is the chance that those heads will ever activate? I'm sure the guys at Tyco did their research and the EoR knows exactly what he is doing but something in my mind wants to throw up a red flag. It just goes against what I think I understand about sprinklers. Cliff ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
ICC link to report http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/NES/NER516.pdf Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
More great information, thanks for your input I have learned a lot. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 3:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Its important to keep the context of the building code clear. First 2006 IBC Section 704 applies to EXTERIOR WALLS. 2006 IBC 704.12 Opening Protection applies to; WINDOWS in EXTERIOR WALLS REQUIRED to have protected openings in accordance with other sections of this code OR determined to be protected in accordance with Section 704.3 (Buildings on the Same Lot) or 704.8 (Allowable Area of Openings Table 704.8 Fire Separation Distance) SHALL comply with Section 715.5 (Fire protection rated glazing, i.e. wired glass, ceramic glass.rated materials NOT reliant on sprinkler protection) In summary windows in exterior walls that are required to be protected openings by the building code must be protected by fire protection rated glazing. The balance of Section 704.12 reads; OTHER OPENINGS REQUIRED to be protected with FIRE DOOR or SHUTTER ASSEMBLIES in accordance with Section 704.3 (Buildings on the Same Lot) or 704.8 (Allowable Area of Openings Table 704.8 Fire Separation Distance) SHALL comply with Section 715.4 (Fire Door and shutter assembliesrated doors, closers, rolling shutters..rated materials NOT reliant on sprinkler protection, well almost glazing in doors exceeding 100 s.i. isn't required to comply with the 450F maximum end point where the building is equipped throughout with NFPA-13 or 13R sprinklers) In summary openings other then windows in exterior walls that are required to be protected by the building code must be protected by fire door or shutter assemblies. That's it, with one minor exception for 100 s.i. glazing in doors no sprinklers !. Oh...the EXCEPTION to IBC 704.12. OPENING PROTECTIVES are NOT required where the building is protected THROUGHOUT by an automatic sprinkler system AND the EXTERIOR OPENINGS are protected by an APPROVED WATER CURTAIN using automatic sprinklers approved for that use. In summary, a DESIGN PROFESSIONAL can tradeoff the Fire protective rated glazing, fire doors and shutter assemblies by sprinklering the building throughout and protecting the openings with an approved water curtain. But remember its an EXCEPTION and not a REQUIREMENT. Exceptions ONLY apply where the designer of record stipulates to the code official they are taking the exception, not the other way around ! There is one more thing.In New Jersey, Engineers like Chris and Scot can submit an APPLICATION FOR VARIATION-F160A requesting relief from the prescribed requirements of the code where compliance with said provisions would result in practical difficulties by submitting an alternative that will still protect the health, safety and welfare of the occupants. However, the operative word in this process is PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY, not financial, don't agree with the code, slept poorly the night before, etc. etc. Keep in mind also that a code official is not obligated to approve an application for variation, but rather it is an avenue that is open for consideration. Sincerely, John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Safe Buildings Save Lives ! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 2:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers You DO NOT need building code permission use these heads in an unsprinklered building. They comply with the building code. The building code requires a rated wall. We prove ratings through listing agencies performing tests. WS heads passed the same tests as every other type of rated wall. They put a glass wall in a furnace with a WS head and lit the fire. They measure the temperature on the cold side as prescribed in the test. The only subtle problem I recall is the temperature didn't quite work out because the water absorbed too many BTU's. No I don't have a UL directory handy. I expect if you look it up under 2 hr walls you will find a variety of sheetrock based solutions, concrete solutions and at least one glass solution using WS heads. I recall this as there is at least one of these in the City of St. Paul, rated glass wall in an unsprinklered building using WS heads. I had to approve it in my capacity of the reviewing authority because it met the CODE. I didn't like it but my OPINION has little bearing when you meet the letter of the CODE. Now in MY ENGINEERING OPINION I think it's a bad idea to use these in an otherwise unsprinkler building. No I don't have a solid basis for this opinion, call it 'cuz. I also think it's a bad idea not to sprinkler everything
Window Sprinklers
Pagni, at Berkeley and a grad-student made a computer program to predict glass breakage from fire exposure. Think that was back in the 80s'. It wasn't air bubbles or liquefaction that caused window breakage in their findings. It was heating differences between exposed glass and the glass shielded by the frame. The difference (radiative heating being a component) between exposed and shielded glass created enough strain to break the pane. so, Ron, I guess it is possible to have a fire burn far enough away from the window, to break that window while not activating the window sprinkler, particularly from expsosure fires. Tyco passed the test, but we can't dis them for this: regulatory capture. The WS has game in the overwhelming majority of applications. We were told in some threads to throw away logic and do what the Code prescribes. And that covers our ifs, ands or butts. But the truth is, there still is the remote (and assumable) chance that in an unsprinklered building where we use the window sprinkler to assist us in achieving a wall rating... e.g. in the case of a 2 story wall uninterrupted by a floor that has glass comprising only the bottom story... there is a real possibility that the window sprinkler system will not prevent window breakage from a fire. Then the next question is, for the engineer or architect at least, so what if the wall breaks? It is a big what if, if the fire exposes a nursery school, or retirement home, or similar life safety challenge, but in many occupancies, everyone of reasonable mobility abilities will still exit safely. Property protection is another mention. scot deal excelsior fire protection ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Thanks man, great information. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of å... Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 5:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window Sprinklers Pagni, at Berkeley and a grad-student made a computer program to predict glass breakage from fire exposure. Think that was back in the 80s'. It wasn't air bubbles or liquefaction that caused window breakage in their findings. It was heating differences between exposed glass and the glass shielded by the frame. The difference (radiative heating being a component) between exposed and shielded glass created enough strain to break the pane. so, Ron, I guess it is possible to have a fire burn far enough away from the window, to break that window while not activating the window sprinkler, particularly from expsosure fires. Tyco passed the test, but we can't dis them for this: regulatory capture. The WS has game in the overwhelming majority of applications. We were told in some threads to throw away logic and do what the Code prescribes. And that covers our ifs, ands or butts. But the truth is, there still is the remote (and assumable) chance that in an unsprinklered building where we use the window sprinkler to assist us in achieving a wall rating... e.g. in the case of a 2 story wall uninterrupted by a floor that has glass comprising only the bottom story... there is a real possibility that the window sprinkler system will not prevent window breakage from a fire. Then the next question is, for the engineer or architect at least, so what if the wall breaks? It is a big what if, if the fire exposes a nursery school, or retirement home, or similar life safety challenge, but in many occupancies, everyone of reasonable mobility abilities will still exit safely. Property protection is another mention. scot deal excelsior fire protection ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
That explains a lot about the composition of fire-rated glazing. I don't know what the treatment is that's applied to Fire-Lite or other rated glass but the knock on those products is that they are exorbitantly expensive. It's not as if you can order up pieces of it - you have to purchase the entire assembly, including and especially the frame. If you've ever seen this stuff up close, especially if you've seen a section cut at trade show, the frames are not only really over-built compared to conventional windows, but instead of simple gaskets or weather seals there is a bead of fire caulk around the glazing on both sides. The frame and sealant are where the bid money goes, along with the costs of testing and listing of course. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of å... Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 5:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window Sprinklers We were told in some threads to throw away logic and do what the Code prescribes. And that covers our ifs, ands or butts. But the truth is, there still is the remote (and assumable) chance that in an unsprinklered building where we use the window sprinkler to assist us in achieving a wall rating... e.g. in the case of a 2 story wall uninterrupted by a floor that has glass comprising only the bottom story... there is a real possibility that the window sprinkler system will not prevent window breakage from a fire. Then the next question is, for the engineer or architect at least, so what if the wall breaks? It is a big what if, if the fire exposes a nursery school, or retirement home, or similar life safety challenge, but in many occupancies, everyone of reasonable mobility abilities will still exit safely. Property protection is another mention. scot deal excelsior fire protection ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3493 (20081003) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3493 (20081003) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
In an exposure fire like the one described, it would be the responsibility of the design team to make sure that the fusible link of the sprinkler head is in an area that can sense the exposure threat. NFPA 80A discusses this concept in its appendix. So the glass bulb in the sprinkler head should be in a location that will receive the radiated heat from the fire just like the tempered glass wall will. In other words, it should not be behind some architectural feature that would shield the glass bulb in the sprinkler head from the radiation exposure. Re-reading my previous post it seems that I was suggesting that the bubble in the glass bulb of the sprinkler head is what helps activates the head. It is actually the lack of the bubble that activates the head. As the liquid in the bulb heats up, it expands and fills the air space (bubble) in the bulb and once the air space is gone the pressure build up in the liquid assists the glass bulb in rupturing. The point in the previous post was that the glass bulb in the sprinkler head has an internal force that is helping to break it and the tempered glass wall does not. So it would seem to me if both glass elements are subject to the same radiated exposure, the glass bulb in the sprinkler head would break before the tempered glass wall. I am not 100% sure about this though, and it would be interesting to see a live fire test. I am assuming that when the Tyco head was listed, the heads were closed prior to the start of the test and prior to being exposed to the standard time temperature curve. Regards, Justin D. Reid, P.E. Project Engineer RLH Fire Protection 468 N. Camden Dr. #290L Beverly Hills, CA 90210 Office: (310) 601-3013 Cell: (213) 798-0251 Fax: (866) 871-2237 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of å... Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window Sprinklers Thank you for this criticism. That is what makes this forum really useful as a tool. bare-knuckled debate. I never said i was not the fool. But being an engineer, well, some people consider a license to prove me a fool. I admit it. don't need to prove it. Fire away, all day and all night. I'll take the bullets if that is what it takes to learn the lesson and get the design tight. from a couple of stitches back on this dead thread. ... The cut sheet supports this in Based on this successful testing, the Model WS Specific Application Window Sprinkler can be used as interior protection of windows or glazing in a sprinklered building or non-sprinklered building. scot deal excelsior fire * On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Thom McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: This thread has already gone on way too long but I can't let this slide. Scott: [sic] ...your already outside the scope of the listing and the building code, so your using your Engineer Status ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
According to information provided in this thread the tests were performed with the sprinkler flowing. That's why I said the tests prove the WS is a good open deluge nozzle, not necessarily an automatic sprinkler. (thump - thump)Sound of dead horse being beaten. Happy Friday to all, Ron Fletcher -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justin Reid Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 10:17 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers In an exposure fire like the one described, it would be the responsibility of the design team to make sure that the fusible link of the sprinkler head is in an area that can sense the exposure threat. NFPA 80A discusses this concept in its appendix. So the glass bulb in the sprinkler head should be in a location that will receive the radiated heat from the fire just like the tempered glass wall will. In other words, it should not be behind some architectural feature that would shield the glass bulb in the sprinkler head from the radiation exposure. Re-reading my previous post it seems that I was suggesting that the bubble in the glass bulb of the sprinkler head is what helps activates the head. It is actually the lack of the bubble that activates the head. As the liquid in the bulb heats up, it expands and fills the air space (bubble) in the bulb and once the air space is gone the pressure build up in the liquid assists the glass bulb in rupturing. The point in the previous post was that the glass bulb in the sprinkler head has an internal force that is helping to break it and the tempered glass wall does not. So it would seem to me if both glass elements are subject to the same radiated exposure, the glass bulb in the sprinkler head would break before the tempered glass wall. I am not 100% sure about this though, and it would be interesting to see a live fire test. I am assuming that when the Tyco head was listed, the heads were closed prior to the start of the test and prior to being exposed to the standard time temperature curve. Regards, Justin D. Reid, P.E. Project Engineer RLH Fire Protection 468 N. Camden Dr. #290L Beverly Hills, CA 90210 Office: (310) 601-3013 Cell: (213) 798-0251 Fax: (866) 871-2237 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of å... Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window Sprinklers Thank you for this criticism. That is what makes this forum really useful as a tool. bare-knuckled debate. I never said i was not the fool. But being an engineer, well, some people consider a license to prove me a fool. I admit it. don't need to prove it. Fire away, all day and all night. I'll take the bullets if that is what it takes to learn the lesson and get the design tight. from a couple of stitches back on this dead thread. ... The cut sheet supports this in Based on this successful testing, the Model WS Specific Application Window Sprinkler can be used as interior protection of windows or glazing in a sprinklered building or non-sprinklered building. scot deal excelsior fire * On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Thom McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: This thread has already gone on way too long but I can't let this slide. Scott: [sic] ...your already outside the scope of the listing and the building code, so your using your Engineer Status ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
You DO NOT need building code permission use these heads in an unsprinklered building. They comply with the building code. The building code requires a rated wall. We prove ratings through listing agencies performing tests. WS heads passed the same tests as every other type of rated wall. They put a glass wall in a furnace with a WS head and lit the fire. They measure the temperature on the cold side as prescribed in the test. The only subtle problem I recall is the temperature didn't quite work out because the water absorbed too many BTU's. No I don't have a UL directory handy. I expect if you look it up under 2 hr walls you will find a variety of sheetrock based solutions, concrete solutions and at least one glass solution using WS heads. I recall this as there is at least one of these in the City of St. Paul, rated glass wall in an unsprinklered building using WS heads. I had to approve it in my capacity of the reviewing authority because it met the CODE. I didn't like it but my OPINION has little bearing when you meet the letter of the CODE. Now in MY ENGINEERING OPINION I think it's a bad idea to use these in an otherwise unsprinkler building. No I don't have a solid basis for this opinion, call it 'cuz. I also think it's a bad idea not to sprinkler everything. Additionally, for the most part I don't see the value of rated walls in the first place in sprinklered buildings. As an engineer I don't see the value of WS's either way. Going to many fires as a firefighter I don't see the value of rated walls either. Sprinkler it and the rest doesn't matter! Also to Justin's comment - It's been a very long time since I read the original report. As I recall the heads were not open at the start of the test. The trick to keeping the glass from breaking before the head fused is what lead to the pony wall requirement. With a couple inches between the glass and a fire the head fuses and all is well. Push the fire right up against the glass and it cracked before the head fused. This problem was tested in the original report I read in like 1996. I certainly accept my memory can be flawed. I've hit my head too many times to not have done some damage. I also like liquor, perhaps I killed some of the brain cells in this WS area. Living healthy is the slowest and most boring way to die. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 11:16 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Yes but the building code does not! So I guess where you have no building code your OK. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of å... Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 9:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Window Sprinklers Thank you for this criticism. That is what makes this forum really useful as a tool. bare-knuckled debate. I never said i was not the fool. But being an engineer, well, some people consider a license to prove me a fool. I admit it. don't need to prove it. Fire away, all day and all night. I'll take the bullets if that is what it takes to learn the lesson and get the design tight. from a couple of stitches back on this dead thread. ... The cut sheet supports this in Based on this successful testing, the Model WS Specific Application Window Sprinkler can be used as interior protection of windows or glazing in a sprinklered building or non-sprinklered building. scot deal excelsior fire * On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Thom McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: This thread has already gone on way too long but I can't let this slide. Scott: [sic] ...your already outside the scope of the listing and the building code, so your using your Engineer Status ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send
Window Sprinklers
am i pegged as the anti-sprinkler guy? ;-) that would be ironic. I made up the scenario describing how a fire could break a glass wall with WS protecting. It was hypothetical to prove a point: that a failure path existed. To be sure, that failure path is not very possible. but then, neither did it seem possible that I would be tainted as advocating and championing a design that I obviously defined as having short-comings. I can admit to being a fool. but I will retool a design that obviously aint kul before I brag about an installation that cant pass honorable mention. funny. I get beat up by architects and lose more jobs from GC's than I should have because of excessive demands i place on sprinkler contractors... i could not agree MORE with downgrading the importance of whether we got a 1.5 or a 2 hr fire barrier in a sprinklered building, IF for sure, we take up the slack and put that attention back into getting the sprinkler system designed, installed, tested and maintained correctly. throw in extra compliments of exits, and we got a recipe for going home happily. then you could retire quite a few FPE's. been singing this song for years. don't have many engineers that sign my reference papers :-( nor are there many designers that attach significance to this status status? ,,,is that what you call this? feels like a bulls-eye painted on my chest. sprinklers and exits is what will give us a sleep sound status 4 most Light and ordinary hazard places WS were tested closed, as they are when installed in the field. scot deal excelsior fire *** ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Its important to keep the context of the building code clear. First 2006 IBC Section 704 applies to EXTERIOR WALLS. 2006 IBC 704.12 Opening Protection applies to; WINDOWS in EXTERIOR WALLS REQUIRED to have protected openings in accordance with other sections of this code OR determined to be protected in accordance with Section 704.3 (Buildings on the Same Lot) or 704.8 (Allowable Area of Openings Table 704.8 Fire Separation Distance) SHALL comply with Section 715.5 (Fire protection rated glazing, i.e. wired glass, ceramic glass.rated materials NOT reliant on sprinkler protection) In summary windows in exterior walls that are required to be protected openings by the building code must be protected by fire protection rated glazing. The balance of Section 704.12 reads; OTHER OPENINGS REQUIRED to be protected with FIRE DOOR or SHUTTER ASSEMBLIES in accordance with Section 704.3 (Buildings on the Same Lot) or 704.8 (Allowable Area of Openings Table 704.8 Fire Separation Distance) SHALL comply with Section 715.4 (Fire Door and shutter assembliesrated doors, closers, rolling shutters..rated materials NOT reliant on sprinkler protection, well almost glazing in doors exceeding 100 s.i. isn't required to comply with the 450F maximum end point where the building is equipped throughout with NFPA-13 or 13R sprinklers) In summary openings other then windows in exterior walls that are required to be protected by the building code must be protected by fire door or shutter assemblies. That's it, with one minor exception for 100 s.i. glazing in doors no sprinklers !. Oh...the EXCEPTION to IBC 704.12. OPENING PROTECTIVES are NOT required where the building is protected THROUGHOUT by an automatic sprinkler system AND the EXTERIOR OPENINGS are protected by an APPROVED WATER CURTAIN using automatic sprinklers approved for that use. In summary, a DESIGN PROFESSIONAL can tradeoff the Fire protective rated glazing, fire doors and shutter assemblies by sprinklering the building throughout and protecting the openings with an approved water curtain. But remember its an EXCEPTION and not a REQUIREMENT. Exceptions ONLY apply where the designer of record stipulates to the code official they are taking the exception, not the other way around ! There is one more thing.In New Jersey, Engineers like Chris and Scot can submit an APPLICATION FOR VARIATION-F160A requesting relief from the prescribed requirements of the code where compliance with said provisions would result in practical difficulties by submitting an alternative that will still protect the health, safety and welfare of the occupants. However, the operative word in this process is PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY, not financial, don't agree with the code, slept poorly the night before, etc. etc. Keep in mind also that a code official is not obligated to approve an application for variation, but rather it is an avenue that is open for consideration. Sincerely, John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Safe Buildings Save Lives ! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 2:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers You DO NOT need building code permission use these heads in an unsprinklered building. They comply with the building code. The building code requires a rated wall. We prove ratings through listing agencies performing tests. WS heads passed the same tests as every other type of rated wall. They put a glass wall in a furnace with a WS head and lit the fire. They measure the temperature on the cold side as prescribed in the test. The only subtle problem I recall is the temperature didn't quite work out because the water absorbed too many BTU's. No I don't have a UL directory handy. I expect if you look it up under 2 hr walls you will find a variety of sheetrock based solutions, concrete solutions and at least one glass solution using WS heads. I recall this as there is at least one of these in the City of St. Paul, rated glass wall in an unsprinklered building using WS heads. I had to approve it in my capacity of the reviewing authority because it met the CODE. I didn't like it but my OPINION has little bearing when you meet the letter of the CODE. Now in MY ENGINEERING OPINION I think it's a bad idea to use these in an otherwise unsprinkler building. No I don't have a solid basis for this opinion, call it 'cuz. I also think it's a bad idea not to sprinkler everything. Additionally, for the most part I don't see the value of rated walls in the first place in sprinklered buildings. As an engineer I don't see the value of WS's either way. Going to many fires as a firefighter I don't see the value of rated walls either. Sprinkler it and the rest doesn't matter! Also to Justin's comment
RE: Window Sprinklers
10 years is new when you've been in this trade for 30 yrs. wouldn't you think? Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
I agree. Heck the '02 NFPA #13 is the current standard in most jurisdictions and will be until after the '09 IBC is adopted. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 5:12 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers 10 years is new when you've been in this trade for 30 yrs. wouldn't you think? Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
You're right, it is just relative and it had nothing at all to do with my post so I guess I shouldn't have shared it. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 11:42 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers ToMAYto, toMAHto - my point only being that it's not as if these sprinklers just showed up with the I-codes. Quell is newer, EC storage sprinklers are newer, 17K, 22K and 25K ESFR is newer; .05 residential listing is newer; .10 residential density in 13 is newer. I guess it's all relative. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 5:12 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers 10 years is new when you've been in this trade for 30 yrs. wouldn't you think? Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3488 (20081002) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3490 (20081002) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1702 - Release Date: 10/1/2008 9:05 AM ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour? Bill Minkel, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler protection) would occur within the first minutes. Once the minimum water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as the water is flowing. Does this sound logical? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell Original Message Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour? Bill Minkel, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used to establish any other rated assembly. A test fire is built on one side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. I think your assumption is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler protection) would occur within the first minutes. Once the minimum water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as the water is flowing. Does this sound logical? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell Original Message Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour? Bill Minkel, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used to establish any other rated assembly. A test fire is built on one side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. I think your assumption is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler protection) would occur within the first minutes. Once the minimum water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as the water is flowing. Does this sound logical? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell Original Message Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour? Bill Minkel, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Yes. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used to establish any other rated assembly. A test fire is built on one side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. I think your assumption is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler protection) would occur within the first minutes. Once the minimum water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as the water is flowing. Does this sound logical? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell Original Message Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour? Bill Minkel, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus
RE: Window Sprinklers
The glass can't do its job if it isn't in tact? What guarantees the glass will remain intact until the sprinkler activates? Ron Rletcher -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Same as for any rated wall or partition. It can't do it's job if it's not intact. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used to establish any other rated assembly. A test fire is built on one side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. I think your assumption is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler protection) would occur within the first minutes. Once the minimum water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as the water is flowing. Does this sound logical? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell Original Message Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour? Bill Minkel, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
RE: Window Sprinklers
If you've installed it per the mfgr. listing, as it was tested, then where's the heartburn. Don't deviate or improvise the installation and TYCO should stand behind the product. You can't design a system to operate perfectly in every single what-if scenario. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:42 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers And nobody thinks that might be a problem? I have installed these heads four feet below a ceiling and outside with only the mullion to act as a heat collector. Seems like quite a leap of faith to assume the sprinkler will activate in a timely manner. Ron Fletcher -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Yes. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used to establish any other rated assembly. A test fire is built on one side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. I think your assumption is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler protection) would occur within the first minutes. Once the minimum water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as the water is flowing. Does this sound logical? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell Original Message Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour? Bill Minkel, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo
RE: Window Sprinklers
And nobody thinks that might be a problem? I have installed these heads four feet below a ceiling and outside with only the mullion to act as a heat collector. Seems like quite a leap of faith to assume the sprinkler will activate in a timely manner. Ron Fletcher -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Yes. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 7:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used to establish any other rated assembly. A test fire is built on one side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. I think your assumption is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler protection) would occur within the first minutes. Once the minimum water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as the water is flowing. Does this sound logical? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell Original Message Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour? Bill Minkel, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send
RE: Window Sprinklers
2006 IBC 704.12 provides for exterior window opening utilizing a water curtain. Exception - Opening protectives are not required where the building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system and the exterior openings are protected by an approved water curtain using automatic sprinklers approved for that use. The sprinklers and the water curtain shall be installed in accordance with section 903.3.1.1 (NFPA13) and shall have an automatic water supply and fire department connection. The Tyco/Central WS for example is a listed window sprinkler. ICC ES Legacy Report NER-516 provides specific instructions on the application of window sprinklers including but not limited glazing, frames, non bearing walls, etc. The complete report can be downloaded/read at; http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/NES/NER516.pdf John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used to establish any other rated assembly. A test fire is built on one side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. I think your assumption is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler protection) would occur within the first minutes. Once the minimum water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as the water is flowing. Does this sound logical? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell Original Message Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour? Bill Minkel, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3485 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical
RE: Window Sprinklers
Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data sheet states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and the quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to me because the data states that there is no specific distance below the ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to defector distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to heat build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different about the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the standard glass bulb I wonder? Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
The glass remains intact because of the location (close proximity) to the glass of the sprinkler heads. At 155'F/200'F the heads go off before the glass temp rises above that, due to the mass of the glass requiring longer than air to rise in temp. Also the distance from the glass to the sprinkler is on 1/2 to 4 so pretty much any heat the glazing gets the sprinkler gets. Glass is an Amorphous solid, with a very high melting point. (1800'F to make it a fused liquid.) So long before it would melt or drop out of the frame from the heat, the sprinkler would activate. Through testing TYCO has shown that with the proper placement and spray pattern the sprinkler spray cools the glass before it reaches a temperature that might cause the glazing to shatter. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers So the test assumes the glass remains intact until sprinkler activation? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
I believe the issue is similar to in-rack sprinklers in that the activation is more or less direct flame impingement. If there is enough heat to jeopardize the side of a building the head will likely activate. Rich Richardson Seattle Fire Department Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/01/2008 09:49 Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data sheet states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and the quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to me because the data states that there is no specific distance below the ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to defector distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to heat build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different about the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the standard glass bulb I wonder? Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
The obvious answer would be heat that directly threatens the glass; a sprinkler could react directly to heat on the same side or to heat radiated from the other side. If it's not hot enough at the window to operate the sprinkler, the presumption is that it's not hot enough to threaten the integrity of the glass, hence the requirement for tempered glass. Check the data sheet for dimensional criteria for placement - it's pretty articulate. Distances toward/away from the glass and deflector position from top of glazing are all clearly shown in elevation and plan views. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data sheet states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and the quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to me because the data states that there is no specific distance below the ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to defector distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to heat build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different about the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the standard glass bulb I wonder? Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3486 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3486 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
That was my point exactly. Not how to install the head per the listing. A manual system would be more dependable than a closed head system with no heat collection. Here's a what if. What if there's a fire, the glass gets hot and fire department hits the glass with a hose stream before the window sprinkler has activated. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data sheet states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and the quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to me because the data states that there is no specific distance below the ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to defector distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to heat build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different about the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the standard glass bulb I wonder? Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
The glass bulb in the sprinkler head has a little air bubble that assists breaking the glass when it is heated up. The tempered glass making up the wall does not have this air bubble in it. The 155 F sprinkler activation temperature is much less than the temperature when glass breaks (check out Babrauskas http://www.doctorfire.com/glass.html ). Because the sprinkler is above the glass being protected, it will heat up with a descending smoke layer faster than the glass being protected. If the sprinkler and the glass are being heated from exposure (from radiation) then the glass bulb in the sprinkler will burst at 155 (once again due to the bubble) while the tempered glass should remain intact. Justin D. Reid, P.E. Project Engineer RLH Fire Protection 468 N. Camden Dr. #290L Beverly Hills, CA 90210 Office: (310) 601-3013 Cell: (213) 798-0251 Fax: (866) 871-2237 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data sheet states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and the quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to me because the data states that there is no specific distance below the ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to defector distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to heat build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different about the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the standard glass bulb I wonder? Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
If that happens what's the problem? If FD is on the scene and attacking the fire then most likely occupants are out, hose streams are in play and sprinklers at the glass are a non-issue. What about the other sprinklers, are they active? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:08 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers That was my point exactly. Not how to install the head per the listing. A manual system would be more dependable than a closed head system with no heat collection. Here's a what if. What if there's a fire, the glass gets hot and fire department hits the glass with a hose stream before the window sprinkler has activated. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data sheet states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and the quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to me because the data states that there is no specific distance below the ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to defector distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to heat build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different about the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the standard glass bulb I wonder? Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Guys, Its important to note that 2006 IBC 704.12 Exception requires that the building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with NFPA-13. That's really big. I've received applications for limited area window protection, 13R window protection and so forth and that's simply not permitted. In order to use the exception at 704.12 a complete NFPA-13 (2002) sprinkler system must be provided. John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:42 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers 2006 IBC 704.12 provides for exterior window opening utilizing a water curtain. Exception - Opening protectives are not required where the building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system and the exterior openings are protected by an approved water curtain using automatic sprinklers approved for that use. The sprinklers and the water curtain shall be installed in accordance with section 903.3.1.1 (NFPA13) and shall have an automatic water supply and fire department connection. The Tyco/Central WS for example is a listed window sprinkler. ICC ES Legacy Report NER-516 provides specific instructions on the application of window sprinklers including but not limited glazing, frames, non bearing walls, etc. The complete report can be downloaded/read at; http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/NES/NER516.pdf John Drucker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used to establish any other rated assembly. A test fire is built on one side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. I think your assumption is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler protection) would occur within the first minutes. Once the minimum water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as the water is flowing. Does this sound logical? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell Original Message Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour? Bill Minkel, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email
RE: Window Sprinklers
The what if was in regard to Steve Laytons' post about during which water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. If the window is hot and hit with a hose stream before the sprinkler activates will the glass fail? It just seems like it would be good to know how long it would take to activate a WS with no ceiling above using the same size fire as the one hour or two hour burn test. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers If that happens what's the problem? If FD is on the scene and attacking the fire then most likely occupants are out, hose streams are in play and sprinklers at the glass are a non-issue. What about the other sprinklers, are they active? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
FW: Window Sprinklers
Guys, Its important to note that 2006 IBC 704.12 Exception requires that the building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with NFPA-13. That's really big. I've received applications for limited area window protection, 13R window protection and so forth and that's simply not permitted. In order to use the exception at 704.12 a complete NFPA-13 (2002) sprinkler system must be provided. John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:42 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers 2006 IBC 704.12 provides for exterior window opening utilizing a water curtain. Exception - Opening protectives are not required where the building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system and the exterior openings are protected by an approved water curtain using automatic sprinklers approved for that use. The sprinklers and the water curtain shall be installed in accordance with section 903.3.1.1 (NFPA13) and shall have an automatic water supply and fire department connection. The Tyco/Central WS for example is a listed window sprinkler. ICC ES Legacy Report NER-516 provides specific instructions on the application of window sprinklers including but not limited glazing, frames, non bearing walls, etc. The complete report can be downloaded/read at; http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/NES/NER516.pdf John Drucker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used to establish any other rated assembly. A test fire is built on one side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. I think your assumption is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler protection) would occur within the first minutes. Once the minimum water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as the water is flowing. Does this sound logical? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell Original Message Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2 hr? Maybe a smaller orifice or totally different head or even a vert. sidewall? Hence Window Sprinkler Lite Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Minkel Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Educate me here, I would have thought that a wall assembly rated for 2 hours would also be more than adequate for 1 hour? Bill Minkel, ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email
RE: Window Sprinklers
Rated glass walls have been used for ages but the Tyco window sprinkler is fairly new so I've been wondering what has been done in the past to address this issue architecturally wise. I called an architect and questioned him on it. He said that a long time ago one could use wire glass. Now he uses either a fire shutter system or the fire rated glass. The rated glass is seldom a chose due to it's cost. The input about the activation time scenarios that was posted makes a lot of sense. Thanks. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
You mean you received applications for limited area window protection, 13R window protection and so forth for exterior window applications? That's fine but the WS for the application Russ is talking about is not an exterior application. There should be no reason the WS heads couldn't be used in an otherwise unsprinklered building. It passed the same test as every other 2 hr rated wall listed in the UL directory. The cut sheet supports this in Based on this successful testing, the Model WS Specific Application Window Sprinkler can be used as interior protection of windows or glazing in a sprinklered building or non-sprinklered building. I just wanted to be clear your rejection seems appropriate for exterior applications because of the specific language in 704.12 but a rejection would not be expected in an interior application where 2 hr sheetrock wall would be acceptable with or without a building sprinkler. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: FW: Window Sprinklers Guys, Its important to note that 2006 IBC 704.12 Exception requires that the building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with NFPA-13. That's really big. I've received applications for limited area window protection, 13R window protection and so forth and that's simply not permitted. In order to use the exception at 704.12 a complete NFPA-13 (2002) sprinkler system must be provided. John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:42 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers 2006 IBC 704.12 provides for exterior window opening utilizing a water curtain. Exception - Opening protectives are not required where the building is protected throughout by an automatic sprinkler system and the exterior openings are protected by an approved water curtain using automatic sprinklers approved for that use. The sprinklers and the water curtain shall be installed in accordance with section 903.3.1.1 (NFPA13) and shall have an automatic water supply and fire department connection. The Tyco/Central WS for example is a listed window sprinkler. ICC ES Legacy Report NER-516 provides specific instructions on the application of window sprinklers including but not limited glazing, frames, non bearing walls, etc. The complete report can be downloaded/read at; http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/NES/NER516.pdf John Drucker -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers The window sprinkler was tested using the exact same criteria as is used to establish any other rated assembly. A test fire is built on one side of the subject and burned for the duration of the rating and then there's a steady-stream hose test (not entirely sure if that's of the same duration - Drucker, chime in now please) during which water is jetted against the subject and it can't fail. I think your assumption is correct that the surface is protected so long as the sprinkler(s) flow at their minimum required rate - 15 or 20 GPM depending on spacing. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a guess but I think the window damage (without the sprinkler protection) would occur within the first minutes. Once the minimum water discharge is established I would assume the protection would last as long as the water is flowing. Does this sound logical? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146 410-544-3620 Phone 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell Original Message Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers From: Bill Minkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, October 01, 2008 9:27 am To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Ah, Gotcha Bill Minkel, Designer Dallas, TX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Of course it's MORE than adequate for a 1 hr wall, the question was is there a Less that would work for 1 hr, but not 2
RE: Window Sprinklers
If I'm not mistaken, these sprinklers have been on market for 10 years or more, so new isn't the word that jumps to mind. We have used these sprinklers on windows that head off at or near the ceiling. In that case and especially if it's a hard lid, we can furr/frame down a soffit or fatten the header to accommodate the piping the feeds the sprinkler(s). If there's a lot of lintel showing, we've worked with the architect to hang or furr-out a panel or some other sort of architectural feater. You can run piping horizontally off the face of the wall and conceal it with a valance. We did a luxury condo high-rise of poured-in-place construction where we had to expose the piping that fed the window sprinklers and they created hardwood valances to conceal the piping; it actually enhance the appearance of the rooms. If you're in a framed wall, fatten it or a portion to 2x8 or stagger the studs and make room for the sprinklers that way. Infinite number of ways to solve this, really. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Rated glass walls have been used for ages but the Tyco window sprinkler is fairly new so I've been wondering what has been done in the past to address this issue architecturally wise. I called an architect and questioned him on it. He said that a long time ago one could use wire glass. Now he uses either a fire shutter system or the fire rated glass. The rated glass is seldom a chose due to it's cost. The input about the activation time scenarios that was posted makes a lot of sense. Thanks. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3486 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3486 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
If the head never actuates the glass won't fail? I am amazed that with all of the belt and suspenders stuff in NFPA and UL that it was assumed the head would operate in a timely manner. If the information in this thread is accurate it proves the WS works well as an open deluge nozzle, not necessarily as an automatic sprinkler. The articulate criteria for placement appears to be solely driven by the need to fully wet the entire surface of the glass. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers The obvious answer would be heat that directly threatens the glass; a sprinkler could react directly to heat on the same side or to heat radiated from the other side. If it's not hot enough at the window to operate the sprinkler, the presumption is that it's not hot enough to threaten the integrity of the glass, hence the requirement for tempered glass. Check the data sheet for dimensional criteria for placement - it's pretty articulate. Distances toward/away from the glass and deflector position from top of glazing are all clearly shown in elevation and plan views. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 9:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Just a note about the mentioning of sprinkler activation. The data sheet states that the advantages are its ability to wet the entire glass and the quick activation time. Well, that quick activation time is a mystery to me because the data states that there is no specific distance below the ceiling, just below the mullion. I put this question of ceiling to defector distance to the Tyco representive that phoned me yesterday and he had no info on what is the max. or min. distance. So, activation time due to heat build up from the ceiling down is not an issue. What's so different about the fusible element that makes its activation time so different from the standard glass bulb I wonder? Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3486 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3486 (20081001) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Window Sprinklers
Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility. Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of 6' spacing. Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an $80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
The Tyco head is specifically listed to provide protection equivalent to a two hour rated assembly. So if the corridor is a rated exit corridor then you need to use the Tyco head to maintain the integrity of the separation. There is no equivalent rating for sprinklering a window with just an average sidewall head. For non-rated separations you could use a standard window/cornice head on the glass. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:21 AM To: AFSA Subject: Window Sprinklers Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility. Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of 6' spacing. Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an $80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
If the AHJ will approve closely spaced sprinklers you should be okay. The Tyco window sprinkler has some severe limitations like no horizontal mullions which translates to no doors. Just because a sprinkler is UL Listed for an application it doesn't mean it's the only thing that can be used. We at the office have often discussed submitting a line of sprinklers to UL for testing and sending along a tanker truck of water from phoenix for the test. We would then have the only sprinkler UL Listed with Phoenix water. Following the window sprinkler logic everyone would have to buy our sprinkler if they did work in Phoenix. (lol) Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:21 AM To: AFSA Subject: Window Sprinklers Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility. Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of 6' spacing. Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an $80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Cause there is nothing in the code that I am aware of that gives a rating with ordinary sprinklers at any spacing. The 6' comes in about openings in floors and as an alternate in the atriums. These are two specific situations addressed but not a general 1 hr rating. The floor opening has nothing to do with ratings and the atrium needed a solution to rating before the development of the Tyco heads once code officials decided to allow multiple floors to be connected without a traditional rating. Tyco heads are listed and tested to the same standard as other rated construction methods for ratings. It's the same test for sheetrock and concrete. If you have a corridor that requires a rating Tyco heads are the only code complying solution I am aware of if using sprinklers. And to Craig's comment if it's unrated then you don't need any sprinklers on the glass. Of course standard note and discussion point regarding a contractor choosing methods of rating vs. the architect and engineer who should have specified methods. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:21 AM To: AFSA Subject: Window Sprinklers Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility. Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of 6' spacing. Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an $80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
The Tyco limitations are because that is what is required to keep the glass intact, make the sprinkler work properly, and ensure the wall rating. If it is designed, installed, approved, and accepted incorrectly it is still wrong regardless of what the AHJ approves. With all due respect Ron, you won't be okay if something goes wrong and you haven't used the Tyco sprinkler given that it is available for this specific application and the information in the thread below including Chris' input. Scott (763) 425-1001 Office (612) 759-5556 Cell -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers If the AHJ will approve closely spaced sprinklers you should be okay. The Tyco window sprinkler has some severe limitations like no horizontal mullions which translates to no doors. Just because a sprinkler is UL Listed for an application it doesn't mean it's the only thing that can be used. We at the office have often discussed submitting a line of sprinklers to UL for testing and sending along a tanker truck of water from phoenix for the test. We would then have the only sprinkler UL Listed with Phoenix water. Following the window sprinkler logic everyone would have to buy our sprinkler if they did work in Phoenix. (lol) Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:21 AM To: AFSA Subject: Window Sprinklers Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility. Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of 6' spacing. Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an $80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Be careful, if the AHJ approves something that is an incorrect application as you suggest, you share responsible for the incorrect application too, not just him. Make sure that what you choose meets code and is correct for the particular situation. Can you defend your installation or design beyond a shadow of a doubt per the equipment listing, Codes and Standards published and adopted by the jurisdiction and industry? Just getting an AHJ to sign off doesn't absolve the engineer or contractor from his responsibility to provide an approved system. While there may be other options which may be equal, you need to be able to prove they are equal. Forget logic, gut feelings and good old fashioned horse sense, you've got to be able to prove it. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers If the AHJ will approve closely spaced sprinklers you should be okay. The Tyco window sprinkler has some severe limitations like no horizontal mullions which translates to no doors. Just because a sprinkler is UL Listed for an application it doesn't mean it's the only thing that can be used. We at the office have often discussed submitting a line of sprinklers to UL for testing and sending along a tanker truck of water from phoenix for the test. We would then have the only sprinkler UL Listed with Phoenix water. Following the window sprinkler logic everyone would have to buy our sprinkler if they did work in Phoenix. (lol) Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:21 AM To: AFSA Subject: Window Sprinklers Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility. Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of 6' spacing. Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an $80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
Chris hits on the heart of the matter. What did the architect/engineer intend to use to achieve the rating on the glass wall? We are working on a project with a rated glass wall with doors. The plans indicate a water curtain with closely spaced sprinklers so that's what we are doing. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:03 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers Cause there is nothing in the code that I am aware of that gives a rating with ordinary sprinklers at any spacing. The 6' comes in about openings in floors and as an alternate in the atriums. These are two specific situations addressed but not a general 1 hr rating. The floor opening has nothing to do with ratings and the atrium needed a solution to rating before the development of the Tyco heads once code officials decided to allow multiple floors to be connected without a traditional rating. Tyco heads are listed and tested to the same standard as other rated construction methods for ratings. It's the same test for sheetrock and concrete. If you have a corridor that requires a rating Tyco heads are the only code complying solution I am aware of if using sprinklers. And to Craig's comment if it's unrated then you don't need any sprinklers on the glass. Of course standard note and discussion point regarding a contractor choosing methods of rating vs. the architect and engineer who should have specified methods. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:21 AM To: AFSA Subject: Window Sprinklers Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility. Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of 6' spacing. Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an $80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
It's permitted this way so what's a fellow to do? Tell the Architect/Engineer, Building Department, Fire Department and owner that they have to eliminate the doors and horizontal mullions from 80 ft. of glass wall? And by the way, the next time you want to use a glass wall you have to check with Tyco? By the time we find out about the rated glass wall all the permits are issued and construction has begun. It's probably a little too late to architecturally redesign the entire lobby area. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott A. Futrell Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:16 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers The Tyco limitations are because that is what is required to keep the glass intact, make the sprinkler work properly, and ensure the wall rating. If it is designed, installed, approved, and accepted incorrectly it is still wrong regardless of what the AHJ approves. With all due respect Ron, you won't be okay if something goes wrong and you haven't used the Tyco sprinkler given that it is available for this specific application and the information in the thread below including Chris' input. Scott (763) 425-1001 Office (612) 759-5556 Cell -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Window Sprinklers If the AHJ will approve closely spaced sprinklers you should be okay. The Tyco window sprinkler has some severe limitations like no horizontal mullions which translates to no doors. Just because a sprinkler is UL Listed for an application it doesn't mean it's the only thing that can be used. We at the office have often discussed submitting a line of sprinklers to UL for testing and sending along a tanker truck of water from phoenix for the test. We would then have the only sprinkler UL Listed with Phoenix water. Following the window sprinkler logic everyone would have to buy our sprinkler if they did work in Phoenix. (lol) Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russell Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 5:21 AM To: AFSA Subject: Window Sprinklers Mornin'. I am bidding a project which consists of an educational facility. Down the center of the building runs an 8' wide corridor. 60' of one of the corridor walls is glass. The corridor walls are fire rated so I am installing sprinklers on both sides of the glass at a max. of 6' spacing. Tyco makes a sprinkler expressly for this use. I can find nothing in codes or standards that require me to use this Tyco sprinkler. Does anyone know of a requirement to use this sprinkler? Why would a contractor choose to use an $80.00 Tyco sprinkler when a $3.00 SSP will do the same job? This makes me concerned that there is one sorta like the CC1 and CC2 sprinkler. Any input will be greatly appreciated. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Window Sprinklers
That is how we do it in Seattle, just as Chris says. Rich Richardson Seattle Fire Department Russell [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/30/2008 06:58 Let me see if I understand Chris, from an architectural standpoint, the glass wall is not a rated wall unless the Tyco sprinkler is used? Cause there is nothing in the code that I am aware of that gives a rating with ordinary sprinklers at any spacing. If you have a corridor that requires a rating Tyco heads are the only code complying solution I am aware of if using sprinklers. Chris Cahill, P.E. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)